The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:

I don't LIKE motor bikes of any kind but it seems that they're involved in
fewer accidents than cars, per capita.

This remark has bugged me so I thought I would try and track some
figures down.

In 2005 the rate for killed or seriously injured per 100 million vehicle
kilometres was 120 for motorcycle users and 4 for car users.

Not sure what Mary really means by per capita but it ISTM that
motorcycling is inherently far more dangerous than travelling by car.

--
Roger Chapman

Roger wrote:
The message
from Huge contains these words:

It won't save more than about 25% at best.

My Td5 Discovery does about 22mpg in everyday use. The 4.0 Range Rover it
replaced did 13mpg under the same conditions. That's significantly
better than
25%.

That's not exactly like with like. Different models and presumably even
different engine sizes. Correct me if I am wrong but I thought a td5 was
only 2.5 litres capacity.

It is. Huge gets a bit more in a disco than I did in the defender..21mpg
with maybe 23mpg pottering around at 50mph.


FWIW my early 80s RR did about 17 mpg.

Frightening. I never got that low even on 4 liter blown XKR.

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:22:55 on
Tue, 27 May 2008, The Natural Philosopher remarked:
There's also the problem of people not necessarily having access to
charging sockets at either home _or_ work currently, which would
require a LOT of infrastructure upgrades in order to be provided.

Domestically its a twelve hour charge overnight on cheap rate. Easy
enough for those with garages and well within domestic supply limits.

For regulated car parking, again easy enough to add socket-in-pole
charging meters.

Wring bit of the infrastructure. The problem is having enough power
delivered to the "socket in pole" and domestic equivalent.
Its no worse than a small factory 3 phase supply.

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:51:52 on
Tue, 27 May 2008, The Natural Philosopher remarked:
60A at 240v is 172Kwh over 12 hours, That is the limit of a domestic
single phase supply cabling and fusing, though most COULD be upgraded
to 100A.

The tails to people's houses are one thing. But the substations and
power beneath the streets is something else!

But they are easier to upgrade, actually. Less of them than the consumers.

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.net...
On Wed, 28 May 2008 10:56:57 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote:

I find the hauliers demands yesterday of an "essential user" rebate
rather strange. To me an "essential user" would be the fire, ambulance
and police services and only those hauliers involved in the food and/or
fuel supply chain. Sorry but F.Bloggs Hauliers Ltd taking a pallet of
widgets from A to B is not an "essential user".

Until your widget supplier runs out when you need one desperately ...

But F.Blogs Hauliers Ltd is complaining that they will go out of business
with out government help. Well the answer is put your prices up. If it
cost X to transport that pallet of widgets from A to B that is the
minimum
you should charge. It's called market forces and being in bussiness. It's
not as if Smiths Trucking down the road is getting fuel 20p/l cheaper
than
J.Blogs Hauliers. We are all in the same boat. They wibble about
continental truckers coming over and doing the work on their cheap fuel,
er, once a forgien truck has done a few hundred miles it will need to
fill
up at our prices...

Um, what's that to do with your point about being an essential user?

Since almost every kind of productive economic activity relies on moving
either things or people (or both) and almost always by road (because our
rail freight system is not fit for purpose), it seems to me that high fuel
taxes
(especially on the haulage industry) are nothing more than an increasing
drain on our economy.

Businesses, in most cases, have no option other than to move stuff by
road. Increasing the cost of that (for spurious environmental reasons)
helps nobody and hurts everbody because there is no viable alternative.

I'm sure it's a not insignificant part of the reason why everything is so
expensive in this country, as compared with US or most of the rest
of Europe.

Chris

On Wed, 28 May 2008 13:28:18 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

Where do you live?

In the middle of "Englands last Wilderness" aka the North Pennines.
Basically 20+ miles from anything other than a small Co-ops.

My weekly shop is about two miles, and I don't do a monthly shop as the
weekly place has everything I need (that isn't within walking distance
already).

The local Co-op 2.5 miles away has the essentials like bread and milk but
doesn't stock some things we use, not to mention the prices being rather
high. 500g Bertolli £1.75 in the local Co-op 1000g Bertolli £2.05 in
Costco... Beer around £1.60/bottle - Costco just over £1.00.

An electric car shouldn't be affected by altitude. Are you starting the
trip from the top or the bottom?

Not performance wise like a combustion engine struggles for oxygen at
altitude (you need to be getting rather higher than the highest parts of
the UK for that to be a problem) but you need to supply the potential
energy to lift the car and occupants. See other post...

The trip from home to Penrith starts at 1400' drops to about 1000' in 3
miles, rises back up to 1900' in 6 miles, drops to 600' in 4 miles. The
rest of the trip, about 10 miles, is "flat" only dropping about 150' but
has couple of short steepish bits.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...


Pedestrians shouldn't be sharing the road. Pedestrians should be on the
footpath.

But in many places pedestrians are forced into the road by selfish
motorists.


In most places pedestrians have as much right to use the road as a motorist
does.
You should drive appropriately not expect a pedestrian to jump out of the
way.
How long did you say you have been driving?

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:483d6d94@qaanaaq...
On 2008-05-28 13:09:41 +0100, "dennis@home"
said:

Once some idiot has flooded the forecourt with a few hundred liters
of fuel you will understand.

How often does that happen in the US, then?


It doesn't matter, it can, but not if they have to hold the handle.



This doesn't happen because the trip mechanism in the handle still
works. All petrol stations I have used in the U.S. have the latch wires
on the pump handles. I have never seen a flood of fuel.



So we are to assume you spend 24 hrs a day watching petrol stations
looking for fuel spills?

Never assume anything. Very dangerous.

Why? you assume stuff all the time.


I have never seen a plane crash, or a train crash but they happen.

I've seen both.

Live or on TV?


I bet you haven't seen one either so are you are going to say they don't
happen either?
People that stupidly state "I have never seen one" and expect anyone to
take any notice are, well, being stupid.

There is nothing incorrect about saying that I have not seen a fuel spill
because of the latching mechanism being in use.

Its also irrelevant.


I am not disputing that this *can* happen, but certainly that it is a big
problem as you are implying.

If you think about it, if it *were* a big problem, then either the handles
would have been redesigned or the mechanisms set as they are here.

Why?
The Americans don't have the same regard for safety as we do.


Since most other countries have the latch wires in the pump handles, it
rather suggests that this does not cause an issue for any meaningful
amount of measurement.

Well you circumvent the mechanism if you want, its obvious that you are an
expert in everything.

Huge wrote:

On 2008-05-27, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

We meed an Issigonis to re-desing the whole car from the ground up
basically, but it will work all right.

http://www.aptera.com/

Of course, I'd throw the stupid electric motor & batteries away and fit a
Hyabusa engine, but that's just me ...

Throw the entire thing away and buy something proper. I don't understand
designs for road cars that have a track significantly wider than the
body. It's just a waste of road space.

That looks like driving a plane that someone has pulled the wings off,
but driving it everywhere in reverse.

In message , at 17:10:02 on
Wed, 28 May 2008, The Natural Philosopher remarked:
The tails to people's houses are one thing. But the substations and
power beneath the streets is something else!

But they are easier to upgrade, actually. Less of them than the consumers.

Yes, it just means digging up every street. They did that round here for
[renewing] the gas mains over the last three years.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 17:09:13 on
Wed, 28 May 2008, The Natural Philosopher remarked:
Domestically its a twelve hour charge overnight on cheap rate. Easy
enough for those with garages and well within domestic supply limits.

For regulated car parking, again easy enough to add socket-in-pole
charging meters.
Wring bit of the infrastructure. The problem is having enough power
delivered to the "socket in pole" and domestic equivalent.
Its no worse than a small factory 3 phase supply.

Listen.... the poles and sockets aren't the problem. Getting power to
the poles *is*. Think a 300 space car park: ho much wiring and how many
amps is that?
--
Roland Perry

In message et, at
17:33:59 on Wed, 28 May 2008, Dave Liquorice
remarked:
Where do you live?

In the middle of "Englands last Wilderness" aka the North Pennines.
Basically 20+ miles from anything other than a small Co-ops.

You will probably have to make increasing sacrifices as a consequence of
that lifestyle decision, as fuel gets more expensive.
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 28 May 2008 13:18:16 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:


I think you will find many bikes come with cats, even 50cc scooters ..
;-)

I think you will find most don't have one.

Yet.

Even the ones that do have them taken off by some idiot that wants a bit
more power and noise.


http://www.scooterstyle.com.au/index10.php

Why not on the PMX?

Pass, I didn't design them! ;-)

It doesn't say if they are closed loop cats or just two stage convertors.
You need closed loop to get the emissions down.

Isn't 'a cat' better than 'no cat' though Dennis?


And what do we do with the polluted cat when that's finished it's
life?

The cat doesn't get polluted.

You could recycle it.. about 50% steel and about 50% ceramic sand by the
time its crushed.
The very small amount of platinum and such like can be extracted if its
economical, it isn't an environmental problem.

Ok ..

All the best ..

T i m

On Wed, 28 May 2008 17:29:36 +0100 Chris Shore wrote :
I'm sure it's a not insignificant part of the reason why everything is
so expensive in this country, as compared with US or most of the rest
of Europe.

I suspect that for a significant part of the country (in terms of
population), the costs of congestion are a much greater factor.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

On Wed, 28 May 2008 18:20:33 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

In the middle of "Englands last Wilderness" aka the North Pennines.
Basically 20+ miles from anything other than a small Co-ops.

You will probably have to make increasing sacrifices as a consequence of
that lifestyle decision, as fuel gets more expensive.

Yep, I accept that and we already do. It's to far to go for a trip to a
decent cinema, the theatre or even a good indian restaurant. But it's far
better living here than on an anonymous estate where you don't even see
your neighbours 10 yards away let alone know them.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

I am not talking about a Pious. Its a total abortion.

You are talking total tripe! The Toyota hybrid system is by far the best
anyone has come up with. It is licenced to many other companies,
including Ford.

ROFLMAO!!!

Fools do laugh at nothing at all.

On 2008-05-28 17:56:20 +0100, "dennis@home"
said:

Why? you assume stuff all the time.

I never assume anything



I have never seen a plane crash, or a train crash but they happen.

I've seen both.

Live or on TV?


Live. I am selective about TV.



I am not disputing that this *can* happen, but certainly that it is a
big problem as you are implying.

If you think about it, if it *were* a big problem, then either the
handles would have been redesigned or the mechanisms set as they are
here.

Why?
The Americans don't have the same regard for safety as we do.

Incorrect. If there is a risk of litigation, there is certainly
attention to detail






Since most other countries have the latch wires in the pump handles, it
rather suggests that this does not cause an issue for any meaningful
amount of measurement.

Well you circumvent the mechanism if you want, its obvious that you are
an expert in everything.

Not particularly. One simply has to look at the circumstances

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 21:24:37
on Tue, 27 May 2008, CWatters
remarked:
Well I used 200miles because that is what is currently achievable at
decent performance with LI-Ion batteries.

Which car is that, then?

Try this "home made" car built in 2004..

Well, it's a "car" I suppose. Not exactly room for a family of four and
their shopping.
--
Roland Perry


I read somewhere it only cost him £9,000 to make.

This one manages 250Km/155miles but is a tad more expensive..
http://www.venturifetish.fr/?lang=en
...probably due to the fancy web site. Click on "power".

On Wed, 28 May 2008 23:18:06 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On 2008-05-28 17:56:20 +0100, "dennis@home"
said:

Why? you assume stuff all the time.

I never assume anything



I have never seen a plane crash, or a train crash but they happen.

I've seen both.

Live or on TV?


Live. I am selective about TV.

I don't have a TV. Virtually all broadcast TV that I've seen in recent
years has been dumbed down tosuch an extent that the company known as
'TV Licensing' can't offer me value for money, so I eschew their
product.

--
Frank Erskine

In message , at
00:18:04 on Thu, 29 May 2008, CWatters
remarked:
Try this "home made" car built in 2004..

Well, it's a "car" I suppose. Not exactly room for a family of four and
their shopping.

I read somewhere it only cost him £9,000 to make.

If it's hone-made, does it avoid all the rules about being tested for
crash-worthiness, damaging pedestrians etc?
--
Roland Perry

In message et, at
21:43:41 on Wed, 28 May 2008, Dave Liquorice
remarked:
In the middle of "Englands last Wilderness" aka the North Pennines.
Basically 20+ miles from anything other than a small Co-ops.

You will probably have to make increasing sacrifices as a consequence of
that lifestyle decision, as fuel gets more expensive.

Yep, I accept that and we already do. It's to far to go for a trip to a
decent cinema, the theatre or even a good indian restaurant. But it's far
better living here than on an anonymous estate where you don't even see
your neighbours 10 yards away let alone know them.

It's far better living where I do - in a leafy middle class suburb built
in the 30's - than on an anonymous estate where you don't even see
your neighbours 10 yards away let alone know them.

I have several good Indian restaurants within a few minutes walk, a
choice of shops from small family run ones to large supermarkets within
a mile, and a very decent cinema ten minutes away on a bus that runs
about every five minutes.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 17:09:13 on
Wed, 28 May 2008, The Natural Philosopher remarked:
Domestically its a twelve hour charge overnight on cheap rate. Easy
enough for those with garages and well within domestic supply limits.

For regulated car parking, again easy enough to add socket-in-pole
charging meters.
Wring bit of the infrastructure. The problem is having enough power
delivered to the "socket in pole" and domestic equivalent.
Its no worse than a small factory 3 phase supply.

Listen.... the poles and sockets aren't the problem. Getting power to
the poles *is*. Think a 300 space car park: ho much wiring and how many
amps is that?

No worse than a medium factory.

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 17:10:02 on
Wed, 28 May 2008, The Natural Philosopher remarked:
The tails to people's houses are one thing. But the substations and
power beneath the streets is something else!

But they are easier to upgrade, actually. Less of them than the
consumers.

Yes, it just means digging up every street.

What doesn't these days?

They did that round here for
[renewing] the gas mains over the last three years.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 28 May 2008 18:20:33 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

In the middle of "Englands last Wilderness" aka the North Pennines.
Basically 20+ miles from anything other than a small Co-ops.
You will probably have to make increasing sacrifices as a consequence of
that lifestyle decision, as fuel gets more expensive.

Yep, I accept that and we already do. It's to far to go for a trip to a
decent cinema, the theatre or even a good indian restaurant. But it's far
better living here than on an anonymous estate where you don't even see
your neighbours 10 yards away let alone know them.

Yup. I would be doing the same in your shoes.

Probably a better place in the thread for this post, but I am getting
lost. :-)

We are used to seeing contractors' vans towing compressors. Is there any
reason not to follow that model for electric/hybrids? By which I mean:

Have a pure electric vehicle for short journeys.

Have a module that includes a power source (probably an ICE and generator).

Have a snazzy means of "towing" the module - which would have its own
wheel(s), brakes and suspension - and connecting it electrically to the
otherwise purely electric vehicle. (I imagine that it would almost slot
underneath the rear of the vehicle - but might stick out a bit.)

Advantages would include not carrying round all the paraphernalia of
IC+gennie most of the time but allowing it to be done easily when
medium/long journeys are intended. If only rarely required, the module
could be hired as needed.

Disadvantages might include significant (unaaceptable?) changes to
handling and possibly excessive cost.

Ideally, any such module would work across different makes of vehicle
(though there would clearly have to be differences between different
sized vehicles).

I'll leave it to someone else to decide whether such a vehicle would be
subject to the congestion charge. :-)

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

In message , at 07:20:07 on
Thu, 29 May 2008, The Natural Philosopher remarked:
Listen.... the poles and sockets aren't the problem. Getting power
to the poles *is*. Think a 300 space car park: ho much wiring and how
many amps is that?

No worse than a medium factory.

I'm surprised a medium factory would take that much power, but the most
difficult part inside the car park is wiring up every bay to the feed.
--
Roland Perry

Rod wrote:
Probably a better place in the thread for this post, but I am getting
lost. :-)

We are used to seeing contractors' vans towing compressors. Is there any
reason not to follow that model for electric/hybrids? By which I mean:

Have a pure electric vehicle for short journeys.

Have a module that includes a power source (probably an ICE and generator).

Have a snazzy means of "towing" the module - which would have its own
wheel(s), brakes and suspension - and connecting it electrically to the
otherwise purely electric vehicle. (I imagine that it would almost slot
underneath the rear of the vehicle - but might stick out a bit.)

Advantages would include not carrying round all the paraphernalia of
IC+gennie most of the time but allowing it to be done easily when
medium/long journeys are intended. If only rarely required, the module
could be hired as needed.

Disadvantages might include significant (unaaceptable?) changes to
handling and possibly excessive cost.

Ideally, any such module would work across different makes of vehicle
(though there would clearly have to be differences between different
sized vehicles).

I'll leave it to someone else to decide whether such a vehicle would be
subject to the congestion charge. :-)

Its the weight innit?

I can foresee a time when AA vehicles are just like this, for exactly
that reason..give you a boost charge at the isolated roadside at
enormous expense.

Roland Perry gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

Listen.... the poles and sockets aren't the problem. Getting power
to the poles *is*. Think a 300 space car park: ho much wiring and how
many amps is that?

No worse than a medium factory.

I'm surprised a medium factory would take that much power, but the most
difficult part inside the car park is wiring up every bay to the feed.

....not to mention what happens when some numpty cocks up parking and
takes the pole out of the ground.

Then, of course, there's the scrote factor - how many of these street
poles will be being tapped for domestic electrickery?

dennis@home wrote:

How long did you say you have been driving?

Do you actually know a way of responding to someone without being offensive?

Jon
--
SPAM BLOCK IN USE! To reply in email, replace 'deadspam'
with 'green-lines'.

"Jon Green" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:

How long did you say you have been driving?

Do you actually know a way of responding to someone without being
offensive?

Do you?

There is nothing offensive in that question other than what *you* have read
into it.

In message , at 07:34:57 on Thu,
29 May 2008, Adrian remarked:

Then, of course, there's the scrote factor - how many of these street
poles will be being tapped for domestic electrickery?

Why would it matter - I assume people will be paying to use these
'poles'.
--
Roland Perry

dennis@home wrote:


"Jon Green" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:

How long did you say you have been driving?

Do you actually know a way of responding to someone without being
offensive?

Do you?

There is nothing offensive in that question other than what *you* have
read into it.

Don't play dumb, Dennis, the implied insult was pretty blatant. You
seem to need to challenge and provoke, more than to answer
constructively. Ho hum, another killfile entry...

Jon
--
SPAM BLOCK IN USE! To reply in email, replace 'deadspam'
with 'green-lines'.

Adrian wrote:
Roland Perry gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

Listen.... the poles and sockets aren't the problem. Getting power
to the poles *is*. Think a 300 space car park: ho much wiring and how
many amps is that?

No worse than a medium factory.

I'm surprised a medium factory would take that much power, but the most
difficult part inside the car park is wiring up every bay to the feed.

...not to mention what happens when some numpty cocks up parking and
takes the pole out of the ground.

Then, of course, there's the scrote factor - how many of these street
poles will be being tapped for domestic electrickery?

Well if the only work when you stick a credit card in them, not many.

Look: Laying cables in a small area isn't that big a deal. Laying cables
for streetlamps, traffic lights and so on is already done routinely in
streets.

440 AC technology is mainstream in industrial places. I am not syaing
that upgrading stuff wouldn't in time be necessary, but power at the
sort of 50KW level, able to mostly recharge a small car in an hour, is
not a big problem.

Electric showers are typically 8.5Kw. They are common enough. That's on
domestic wiring.

125A 3 phase connectors are routinely available. That is probably around
40KW at least...i can never remember how these things work.

And as far as MOST charging goes, MOST of the time people will NOT be
drawing full current. The chargers will, once the battery is full, cut off.

So the requirements for a massive substation to feed everything only
really exist at e.g. motorway service stations where a high volume of
cars with very flat batteries will be present.

One can envisage a standard plug: you pull up to a charge point, open a
'filler flap' pull a cable out and plug it in, locking with your key,
then go to the post, shove in your credit card, looking at the readout
on the post. It says you are e.g. half full. Shove in electric company
of your choice credit card, key in PIN, and buy what charge level you
need. Once PIN accepted, voltage is applied to the connector, until what
you have prepaid is delivered, or the battery is full, whichever comes
first. Do shopping, come back, green light is on, unlock cable and
remove. Drive away.

Apart from the time to charge, very little different from a credit card
petrol pump.

Roland Perry wrote:
I'm surprised a medium factory would take that much power, but the most
difficult part inside the car park is wiring up every bay to the feed.

Surely there are already metal poles in the ground wired for
electricity in many car parks? You'd need thicker cabling to each of
these new "poles", and many more circuits back to a substation, but I
don't think this is going to be as much as a problem as the capacity
issues further up.

If we give the car 15 Amps at 240V say, for a 200 place carpark,
that's 3000A. Which is about the amperage at which you want to start
considering a dedicated substation, and certainly one where you want
multiple drops.

Perhaps it would make more sense to feed these poles at, say, 11kV and
give them each 1/3A. You may want to transform that down in each pole,
or else provide a safety interlock in the connector.

But, why are we doing this again?

Dan.

The Natural Philosopher gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

No worse than a medium factory.

I'm surprised a medium factory would take that much power, but the
most difficult part inside the car park is wiring up every bay to the
feed.

...not to mention what happens when some numpty cocks up parking and
takes the pole out of the ground.

Then, of course, there's the scrote factor - how many of these street
poles will be being tapped for domestic electrickery?

Well if the only work when you stick a credit card in them, not many.

The socket out will only work with a card. But the power going in to the
pole is almost certainly going to be accessible through a nice little
access hatch or similar.

OK, so the next problem is somebody unplugging your car and plugging
theirs in to your pole.

440 AC technology is mainstream in industrial places. I am not syaing
that upgrading stuff wouldn't in time be necessary, but power at the
sort of 50KW level, able to mostly recharge a small car in an hour, is
not a big problem.

Fine. Looking out the office window, I can see about twenty cars parked
either on the road in front of this building, plus the apron of the
building opposite. There's a two-level car park at the back of this
building which has probably another thirty cars in it.

That's 50x50kW = 2.5MW. On top, of course, of the current electricity
usage for the office and light-industrial buildings.

Then, of course, there's all the other buildings up and down the road.

And as far as MOST charging goes, MOST of the time people will NOT be
drawing full current. The chargers will, once the battery is full, cut
off.

So those fifty cars are only pulling full charge from 9am to mid-
afternoon...

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Public transport can not do what a private car can: we may have to go
back to it, but not without a struggle.

I think this is the most intelligent comment in this whole thread! It
does have its compensations, though.

I remember using public transport exlusively,. It took all day to get
from Surrey to Devon, and involved a lot of strenuous lugging of luggage
between various platforms. In a car, its about 4 hours door to door,
that public transport never achieved.

I think that private transport has also increased the number of such
journeys that we make. Certainly public transport increased the spread
of people, and the distances they moved when it was the only option, so
I think it's reasonable to think that private transport probably did
similarly.

Public transport constrains where you can operate from as a normal
working person. I remember when my car broke, missing the only bus there
was, and being 3 hours late for work.

This is a pain. Three hours is a bit extreme, though. If I'm late for
a meeting (usually via the railway station) because of Stagecoach
messing up, I order a taxi. Makes some of the villages less useful,
but that might actually revitalise our cities beyond a few people
rattling around in lofts.

I think that as soon as more stroppy people start using the buses they
will improve. At the moment there's a placid passivity to bus users
because anyone who can't manage to sustain a "thank you, dear
Stagecoach, for the buses you deign to run" approach arranges
alternative transport. With a few acts of bottom-line hitting civil
disobedience, alternative services, reported "fact" checking, etc,
when the militants come on board, they'll get their act sorted.

[...]
The extra time it takes might be the death of you when you need to get
to A & E. Strangely the early adopters of small cars in the 50's were
(amongst others) doctors midwives and district nurses...

Judgeing by the speed of the ambulance response around here, YCBW. I
think Panther may well operate the best ambulance service within the
city. This is almost certainly not the fault of the service, of
course, it's probably caused by all the private transport they have to
battle through in those big vehicles (which are obviously ncessary for
someone who's badly hurt), and which they're increasingly getting
around by having a wider fleet.

Dan.

Dan Sheppard gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying:

Surely there are already metal poles in the ground wired for electricity
in many car parks?

Not in the one at the back of this office building.

Perhaps it would make more sense to feed these poles at, say, 11kV and
give them each 1/3A. You may want to transform that down in each pole,
or else provide a safety interlock in the connector.

That'd certainly be an effective way to ensure people learn to park
without ripping bollards out of the ground...

In message , at 11:24:41 on Thu,
29 May 2008, Dan Sheppard remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:
I'm surprised a medium factory would take that much power, but the most
difficult part inside the car park is wiring up every bay to the feed.

Surely there are already metal poles in the ground wired for
electricity in many car parks? You'd need thicker cabling to each of
these new "poles", and many more circuits back to a substation, but I
don't think this is going to be as much as a problem as the capacity
issues further up.

I don't recall seeing any. There's the lighting, of course, but that's
orders of magnitude too low capacity for this.

If we give the car 15 Amps at 240V say, for a 200 place carpark,
that's 3000A. Which is about the amperage at which you want to start
considering a dedicated substation, and certainly one where you want
multiple drops.

TNP seems to think a 300 place car park is the same as a small factory,
but I'm sceptical he hasn't dropped a zero somewhere.

Perhaps it would make more sense to feed these poles at, say, 11kV and
give them each 1/3A. You may want to transform that down in each pole,
or else provide a safety interlock in the connector.

That'll be good to stop people stealing the power for their houses, but
doesn't sound very "all weather" to me.

But, why are we doing this again?

So we drive more than 5 miles a day in an electric car
--
Roland Perry

"Adrian" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

No worse than a medium factory.

I'm surprised a medium factory would take that much power, but the
most difficult part inside the car park is wiring up every bay to the
feed.

...not to mention what happens when some numpty cocks up parking and
takes the pole out of the ground.

Then, of course, there's the scrote factor - how many of these street
poles will be being tapped for domestic electrickery?

Well if the only work when you stick a credit card in them, not many.

The socket out will only work with a card. But the power going in to the
pole is almost certainly going to be accessible through a nice little
access hatch or similar.

OK, so the next problem is somebody unplugging your car and plugging
theirs in to your pole.


Plus the card will charge you at a rate just cheaper than the equivalent
petrol (as we live in a mixed capitalist economy) so the pole providers can
make healthy profits for their shareholders.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

Roland Perry wrote:
29 May 2008, Dan Sheppard remarked:
Surely there are already metal poles in the ground wired for
electricity in many car parks? You'd need thicker cabling to each of
these new "poles", and many more circuits back to a substation, but I
don't think this is going to be as much as a problem as the capacity
issues further up.

I don't recall seeing any. There's the lighting, of course, but that's
orders of magnitude too low capacity for this.

I'm not sure where you're coming from with this problem of getting the
power to the poles. I thought you were saying that the civil
engineering of such was complex and irritating? I thought that
lighting poles would have similar challenges (though admittedly, doing
this at medium voltages would be a little more challenging).

TNP seems to think a 300 place car park is the same as a small factory,
but I'm sceptical he hasn't dropped a zero somewhere.

I'm no expert on small factories, really, so I'm not sure. But I'm not
sure what difference that makes because if you plonk a small factory
where every carpark is, you've got a vastly changed energy landscape
anyway.

Perhaps it would make more sense to feed these poles at, say, 11kV and
give them each 1/3A. You may want to transform that down in each pole,
or else provide a safety interlock in the connector.

That'll be good to stop people stealing the power for their houses, but
doesn't sound very "all weather" to me.

I dunno, I'm sure the eggheads could sort something out with the
connector: it doesn't have to be an exposed prong plug, after all.
Could be something closer to a petrol pump connector with a flower
like thing on the end, furled up (and earthed) when exposed, but then
activated by an occluded nobble in the pipe which causes the outer
casing to unfurl.

But, why are we doing this again?

So we drive more than 5 miles a day in an electric car

That seems like a bit of a pointless occupation to me.

Dan.