In article ,
Steve Firth wrote:
Sarah Brown wrote:

AttenboroughAnd here we see the alpha males, squaring up to each
other, in the time honoured rituaused to determine dominance. It may
look ferocious, and indeed tempers can run high, but the displaty is
mostly ceremonial and afterwards, both combattants may settle their
differences over a pint at the communal watering hole.

And the female cowers timorously on the edge of the group, knowing that
when they have finished rutting the winners attention will turn to her.

Bring it, sucka!

Roland Perry gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

Even on stuff where space isn't absolutely critical, it can be
difficult. The battery on the Saab is nominally the common 069 fitment.
Nominally. You have to be VERY careful on brand, as many just plain
don't fit, because the OEM one is narrower than the standard. The one I
bought, I was lucky. It's a very tight squeeze, but just about fits,
with the exhaust touching the heatshield clamped to the side of the
battery.

That's only because the car has been designed on the assumption that a
special battery isn't a problem. if there were only a few different
sizes then they'd have to engineer round it.

Not quite - it's because the battery sat there all along, then some
pillock put a bloody great big turbo in the only possible place, which
put the exhaust... ummm... there... The exhaust routing's compromised by
the need to squeeze the battery in.

Why _should_ something so relatively unimportant arbitrarily be the
single most important bit of packaging?

In message , at 19:27:58 on Fri,
6 Jun 2008, Adrian remarked:
Why _should_ something so relatively unimportant arbitrarily be the
single most important bit of packaging?

Because having dozens of different types makes replacement harder to
find.
--
Roland Perry

Adrian wrote:

Why _should_ something so relatively unimportant arbitrarily be the
single most important bit of packaging?

Mmmm - lovely boiling battery acid. (I used to have a Saab turbo 16v tii
- I know.) But perhaps a small number of basic batteries with a couple
of shape variants? It might have been possible to fit a long thin
battery somewhere else.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Roland Perry gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

Why _should_ something so relatively unimportant arbitrarily be the
single most important bit of packaging?

Because having dozens of different types makes replacement harder to
find.

No more so than oil filters, headlamps, tyres, windscreens. Should they
all be forced to be one of four or five basic types? How about front
wings or bumpers?

Sarah Brown wrote:

In article ,
Steve Firth wrote:
Sarah Brown wrote:

AttenboroughAnd here we see the alpha males, squaring up to each
other, in the time honoured rituaused to determine dominance. It may
look ferocious, and indeed tempers can run high, but the displaty is
mostly ceremonial and afterwards, both combattants may settle their
differences over a pint at the communal watering hole.

And the female cowers timorously on the edge of the group, knowing that
when they have finished rutting the winners attention will turn to her.

Bring it, sucka!

Beleive me, in any macho display I shall be the male at the edge of the
group trying to work out how a mobile phone works, rather than
displaying my bottom to the crowd.

On 2008-06-06 19:44:52 +0100, Sarah Brown
said:

In article ,
Steve Firth wrote:
Sarah Brown wrote:

AttenboroughAnd here we see the alpha males, squaring up to each
other, in the time honoured rituaused to determine dominance. It may
look ferocious, and indeed tempers can run high, but the displaty is
mostly ceremonial and afterwards, both combattants may settle their
differences over a pint at the communal watering hole.

And the female cowers timorously on the edge of the group, knowing that
when they have finished rutting the winners attention will turn to her.

Bring it, sucka!

Oh, I say...

In message , at 20:03:25 on Fri,
6 Jun 2008, Adrian remarked:
Why _should_ something so relatively unimportant arbitrarily be the
single most important bit of packaging?

Because having dozens of different types makes replacement harder to
find.

No more so than oil filters, headlamps, tyres, windscreens. Should they
all be forced to be one of four or five basic types?

Headlamp bulbs are quite standard, no excuse for lots of different sorts
of oil filter, and there are too many different sorts of tyre.

Windscreens and...

How about front wings or bumpers?

.... aren't routinely replaced, however they are probably much the same
for all variants of a particular model of car. Which you can't say for
tyres.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

No more so than oil filters, headlamps, tyres, windscreens. Should they
all be forced to be one of four or five basic types?

Headlamp bulbs are quite standard

I said "headlamps", not bulbs.

no excuse for lots of different sorts of oil filter, and there are too
many different sorts of tyre.

Sorry, but I disagree.

Windscreens and...
How about front wings or bumpers?

... aren't routinely replaced, however they are probably much the same
for all variants of a particular model of car.

You'd be surprised. When I replaced the 'screen on the Saab, there was
four different 'screens. Clear and three tints. Oh, and the convertible's
a different 'screen entirely.

Which you can't say for tyres.

You seem to be forgetting that many tyre sizes would be common across a
variety of different makes and models, though.

Adrian wrote:
Roland Perry gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:


Which you can't say for tyres.

You seem to be forgetting that many tyre sizes would be common across a
variety of different makes and models, though.

Unfortunately, not always. (You did write "many".) Just needed to order
some specially - the *only* car that takes the specific tyre. And it's
only a Nissan.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Rod gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

Which you can't say for tyres.

You seem to be forgetting that many tyre sizes would be common across a
variety of different makes and models, though.

Unfortunately, not always. (You did write "many".)

Indeed I did...
looks at own email address - not much else takes 125x15s...

Just needed to order some specially - the *only* car that takes the
specific tyre. And it's only a Nissan.

surprised No close-alternative common tyre size?

On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:48:14 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

Because having dozens of different types makes replacement harder to
find.

But there are dozens of different types. My quickly knocked together
"battery finder" page(*) has 69 different 12v batteries in it. And that is
from the scant information I could find on the web.

(*) Plugin the dimensions and a tolerance and voltage (6 or 12) and it'll
return all the batteries it knows about that match.

http://www.howhill.com/battery/search.php

--
Cheers
Dave.

Roland Perry wrote:
In message . com, at
07:34:42 on Fri, 6 Jun 2008, Jules
remarked:

However there are less than 15 BATTERY sizes in GENERAL use for
starting.

Yes, that's true. I can't see why there are more than about four, but
that's another question.

I suspect the number's dropping slowly - car batteries needed to cope
with
lots of different requirements at one time, but these days engines are
generally far easier to start and there's a far smaller range of engine
sizes.

I don't see that for cars made in the last 20 years there's any need for
batteries other than for ranges like 0-1000cc, 1100-1800, 1900-2500, 3000+

That doesn't surprise me.

The Luggage wrote:
On 6 Jun, 13:34, Jules
wrote:
On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 12:19:38 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
[...]
I'm not sure that I agree that's a problem, unless you mean the
collateral damage done if you receive a battery pack with broken
electronics.
What's the nature of this 'electronics' in the packs? Just a couple
of sensors with contacts brought out to the pack shell, or do they
have any real built-in smarts? If the latter, can't the electronics
be handled outside of the pack (i.e. the pack has some sort of
'barcode' dictating its parameters, and the smarts in order to handle
that pack could all be integral to the vehicle rather than the battery)

I think the pack would need more than its standard parameters. It
would need some sort of datalogging, giving hours of use, hours on
charge, and most importantly, a way of measuring the available
performance of the pack. This would probably be generated from some
historical measurement of charge against power drawn. This would
enable the vehicle management system to see if a particular pack
didn't cope with high drain work, and to flag to the owner (of the
pack or vehicle as appropriate) that a particular pack was about to
fail.

TL
...and limit its current contributun if it starts to get hot, or show
distress.

Careful conditioning of the expensive LIPO is the key to long life.

Adrian wrote:
Rod gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

Which you can't say for tyres.

You seem to be forgetting that many tyre sizes would be common across a
variety of different makes and models, though.

Unfortunately, not always. (You did write "many".)

Indeed I did...
looks at own email address - not much else takes 125x15s...

Just needed to order some specially - the *only* car that takes the
specific tyre. And it's only a Nissan.

surprised No close-alternative common tyre size?

175/60 R 15 H

Gawd alone knows why an H rating. Any suggestions?

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:03:25 +0000 (UTC), Adrian wrote:

No more so than oil filters, headlamps, tyres, windscreens. Should they
all be forced to be one of four or five basic types? How about front
wings or bumpers?

Why not? This is only a car, something to move you from one place to
another, not a fashion accessory.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 22:32:58 +0100, Rod wrote:

Adrian wrote:
Rod gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were
saying:

Which you can't say for tyres.

You seem to be forgetting that many tyre sizes would be common across
a
variety of different makes and models, though.

Unfortunately, not always. (You did write "many".)
Indeed I did... looks at own email address - not much else takes
125x15s...

Just needed to order some specially - the *only* car that takes the
specific tyre. And it's only a Nissan.
surprised No close-alternative common tyre size?

175/60 R 15 H

Gawd alone knows why an H rating. Any suggestions?



A V rating? In which case it's a fairly common size.

Duncan Wood wrote:
On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 22:32:58 +0100, Rod wrote:

Adrian wrote:
Rod gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were
saying:

Which you can't say for tyres.

You seem to be forgetting that many tyre sizes would be common
across a
variety of different makes and models, though.

Unfortunately, not always. (You did write "many".)
Indeed I did... looks at own email address - not much else takes
125x15s...

Just needed to order some specially - the *only* car that takes the
specific tyre. And it's only a Nissan.
surprised No close-alternative common tyre size?

175/60 R 15 H

Gawd alone knows why an H rating. Any suggestions?



A V rating? In which case it's a fairly common size.

But more expensive? No - I've just checked - cheaper!!! Bizarre world we
live in.

I went round several tyre places the other day - not one offered V. Not
one offered a lower rating. All sucked their teeth and said "Only one
car uses them".

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 23:00:45 +0100, Rod wrote:

Duncan Wood wrote:
On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 22:32:58 +0100, Rod wrote:

Adrian wrote:
Rod gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were
saying:

Which you can't say for tyres.

You seem to be forgetting that many tyre sizes would be common
across a
variety of different makes and models, though.

Unfortunately, not always. (You did write "many".)
Indeed I did... looks at own email address - not much else takes
125x15s...

Just needed to order some specially - the *only* car that takes the
specific tyre. And it's only a Nissan.
surprised No close-alternative common tyre size?

175/60 R 15 H

Gawd alone knows why an H rating. Any suggestions?

A V rating? In which case it's a fairly common size.

But more expensive? No - I've just checked - cheaper!!! Bizarre world we
live in.

I went round several tyre places the other day - not one offered V. Not
one offered a lower rating. All sucked their teeth and said "Only one
car uses them".


Even if it was true Nissan Micras are hardly unusual.

On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 22:43:27 +0100, Dave Liquorice
wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 20:03:25 +0000 (UTC), Adrian wrote:

No more so than oil filters, headlamps, tyres, windscreens. Should they
all be forced to be one of four or five basic types? How about front
wings or bumpers?

Why not? This is only a car, something to move you from one place to
another, not a fashion accessory.



Because the advantages would be miniscule?

Rod wrote:
Adrian wrote:
You seem to be forgetting that many tyre sizes would be common across
a variety of different makes and models, though.

Unfortunately, not always. (You did write "many".) Just needed to order
some specially - the *only* car that takes the specific tyre. And it's
only a Nissan.


I have had the dealer correctly identify my make and model when I called
to ask if they had stock of a set size.

And that's just a Toyota...

Andy.

Duncan Wood wrote:

Even if it was true Nissan Micras are hardly unusual.

Knock me down wiv' a feather! Common as muck. And, BTW, not the ideal
car for carrying fence panels. :-(

Is there any reason not to go for V-rated? Do they wear faster or
anything silly like that?

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Andy Champ wrote:
Rod wrote:
Adrian wrote:
You seem to be forgetting that many tyre sizes would be common across
a variety of different makes and models, though.

Unfortunately, not always. (You did write "many".) Just needed to
order some specially - the *only* car that takes the specific tyre.
And it's only a Nissan.


I have had the dealer correctly identify my make and model when I called
to ask if they had stock of a set size.

And that's just a Toyota...

Andy.

Well we used to regularly fit at least three sizes of tyres to the same
car..

145s gave good econnomy, 155's gripped better, and 165's fouled the
chassis at full lock IIRC. If you wanted low profile RipSpeed did some
nice replacement bigger rims...

Most cars will take quite a variety: its only when you get to exotic
brands that there is only one tyre that works. Or even FITS.

Of course the manufactures do deals with te suppliers, and fit something
and the tyre people supply them cheap to the manufacturers in the hope
that the punter will want the same expensive tyre over and over again.

In message , at 20:29:29 on Fri,
6 Jun 2008, Adrian remarked:
Roland Perry gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

No more so than oil filters, headlamps, tyres, windscreens. Should they
all be forced to be one of four or five basic types?

Headlamp bulbs are quite standard

I said "headlamps", not bulbs.

They aren't a regular replacement.

no excuse for lots of different sorts of oil filter, and there are too
many different sorts of tyre.

Sorry, but I disagree.

If you wish.

Windscreens and...
How about front wings or bumpers?

... aren't routinely replaced, however they are probably much the same
for all variants of a particular model of car.

You'd be surprised. When I replaced the 'screen on the Saab, there was
four different 'screens. Clear and three tints. Oh, and the convertible's
a different 'screen entirely.

Which you can't say for tyres.

You seem to be forgetting that many tyre sizes would be common across a
variety of different makes and models, though.

There are sill way too many different sorts.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at
23:26:05 on Fri, 6 Jun 2008, Andy Champ remarked:
I have had the dealer correctly identify my make and model when I
called to ask if they had stock of a set size.

My car's got the "wrong" size wheels on it. Causes no end of problems
because the model they've been swapped from is apparently top of the
range and needs a speed rating that's inappropriate for my much more
modest model. Some tyre places simply refuse to get involved at all
because the combination isn't in their ready-reckoner.
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 23:26:05
on Fri, 6 Jun 2008, Andy Champ remarked:
I have had the dealer correctly identify my make and model when I called
to ask if they had stock of a set size.

My car's got the "wrong" size wheels on it. Causes no end of problems
because the model they've been swapped from is apparently top of the range
and needs a speed rating that's inappropriate for my much more modest
model. Some tyre places simply refuse to get involved at all because the
combination isn't in their ready-reckoner.

Eh,

I've never bought a tyre on the basis of the car it's on. I just ask for an
XYZ-1234 to be fitted (CBA to look up the correct format and I'm not sad
enough about cars to keep it in my head).

tim

--
Roland Perry

In message , at 15:53:09 on Sat, 7
Jun 2008, tims next home remarked:
My car's got the "wrong" size wheels on it. Causes no end of problems
because the model they've been swapped from is apparently top of the
range and needs a speed rating that's inappropriate for my much more
modest model. Some tyre places simply refuse to get involved at all
because the combination isn't in their ready-reckoner.

Eh,

I've never bought a tyre on the basis of the car it's on. I just ask
for an XYZ-1234 to be fitted (CBA to look up the correct format and I'm
not sad enough about cars to keep it in my head).

The tyre places I've used recently seem to be under the impression that
they aren't allowed to sell me tyres with a "too low" speed rating. But
when they look up my car, and that tyre, all they get is the
top-of-the-range boy racer variant. But if they looked up my model (with
the correct size wheel) they'd see it has a more modest performance and
can take a lower (and significantly cheaper) speed rating.

One place refused to put that particular two-and-two together and
another did it only grudgingly.
--
Roland Perry

"Dave Liquorice" gurgled happily,
sounding much like they were saying:

No more so than oil filters, headlamps, tyres, windscreens. Should they
all be forced to be one of four or five basic types? How about front
wings or bumpers?

Why not? This is only a car, something to move you from one place to
another, not a fashion accessory.

shrug
OK, so some central authority starts to control design and production of
cars. What after cars? Power tools? After all, there's far too many
different designs of electric drill available. Nobody needs more than a
basic drill, do they? How about wall tiles?

Isn't it starting to look just a bit centralised command-economy to you?

Adrian wrote:
"Dave Liquorice" gurgled happily,
sounding much like they were saying:

No more so than oil filters, headlamps, tyres, windscreens. Should they
all be forced to be one of four or five basic types? How about front
wings or bumpers?

Why not? This is only a car, something to move you from one place to
another, not a fashion accessory.

shrug
OK, so some central authority starts to control design and production of
cars. What after cars? Power tools? After all, there's far too many
different designs of electric drill available. Nobody needs more than a
basic drill, do they? How about wall tiles?

Isn't it starting to look just a bit centralised command-economy to you?

which is exactly where you end up when you start saying what the world
SHOULD be like, instead of merely addressing the places in which it
clearly and consensually broken.

Theocracy, military dictatorship, Soviet style communism, all these star
with a preconception as to what is right and will work, and attempt to
create people to fit the perfect system,and thise ultimately end up
being totally repressive.


Market based economies at least do not second guess societies shape:
what works tends to flourish and what doesn't falls by the wayside.

Its not perfect, but it possibly is the lesser of all evils.

Like evolution, it doesn't guarantee perfection, or even the optimal
solution: merely the removal of inadequate solutions.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Theocracy, military dictatorship, Soviet style communism, all these star
with a preconception as to what is right and will work, and attempt to
create people to fit the perfect system,and thise ultimately end up
being totally repressive.

I agree with this,

Market based economies at least do not second guess societies shape:
what works tends to flourish and what doesn't falls by the wayside.

But I'm not so sure about this. Isn't this what futures and hedge
markets do?

Dan.

Dan Sheppard wrote in
:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Theocracy, military dictatorship, Soviet style communism, all these star
with a preconception as to what is right and will work, and attempt to
create people to fit the perfect system,and thise ultimately end up
being totally repressive.

I agree with this,

Market based economies at least do not second guess societies shape:
what works tends to flourish and what doesn't falls by the wayside.

But I'm not so sure about this. Isn't this what futures and hedge
markets do?

The same would apply to them - if they stopped being profitable they
would disappear. But in market based economies there is in fact an
ideology (usually something like less government regulation = Good
Thing) that is imposed. People aren't always happy with the results
of such a system either (hence all the complaints about fat cats,
people being rewarded for failure, the failure of the market to provide
pensions, cheap fuel etc.) And when things would fall by the wayside
(e.g. Northern Rock), it often isn't politically possible to let that happen.
As with the other ideologies mentioned, the reality is usually some
kind of messy compromise. In fact more or less every society ends
up that way in practice, suggesting that messy compromises that
don't give one group too much power are actually the normal state
of human society, so a monarchy might talk about ruling by divine
right, but still end up making concessions if the peasants revolt.

Huge wrote in
:
On 2008-06-08, Dan Sheppard wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Market based economies at least do not second guess societies shape:
what works tends to flourish and what doesn't falls by the wayside.
But I'm not so sure about this. Isn't this what futures and hedge
markets do?
No. Futures are a bet on which way the market will move, not an
attempt to move the market in a specific direction.

That can be a side-effect of them though. So they can perform that
function, whether or not that was the intended purpose. They could
be seen as a mechanism for ameliorating large fluctuations in
prices, regardless of whether someone designed them (for that or
any other purpose).

On 2008-06-08 17:40:45 +0100, Huge said:

On 2008-06-08, Dan Sheppard wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Theocracy, military dictatorship, Soviet style communism, all these star
with a preconception as to what is right and will work, and attempt to
create people to fit the perfect system,and thise ultimately end up
being totally repressive.

I agree with this,

Market based economies at least do not second guess societies shape:
what works tends to flourish and what doesn't falls by the wayside.

But I'm not so sure about this. Isn't this what futures and hedge
markets do?

No. Futures are a bet on which way the market will move, not an attempt to move
the market in a specific direction.

Sort of like a red braces version of Ladbrokes........

Huge wrote:
On 2008-06-08, Dan Sheppard wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Theocracy, military dictatorship, Soviet style communism, all these star
with a preconception as to what is right and will work, and attempt to
create people to fit the perfect system,and thise ultimately end up
being totally repressive.

I agree with this,

Market based economies at least do not second guess societies shape:
what works tends to flourish and what doesn't falls by the wayside.

But I'm not so sure about this. Isn't this what futures and hedge
markets do?

No. Futures are a bet on which way the market will move, not an attempt to move
the market in a specific direction.

Is betting on society's shape not "second guessing society's shape"?
I'm not a betting man, but I imagine that if I were to put my money on
a horse, I'm trying to second guess which horse will be fastest?".

[Of course, it's easier in futures. The futures market helps determine
where investments are placed, which is the life blood of many
businesses. Which is like a race where every bet on a horse removes a
pound of handicap.]

Dan.

Paul Treadaway wrote:
[Hedges and Futures]
The same would apply to them - if they stopped being profitable they
would disappear.

I can assure you that the same thing regularly happened in the USSR.

On recent evidence of quite a few datapoints, they'd most likely be
bailed out by the relevant central bank. Even macroeconomics jiggled
to give them breathing-room.

Dan.

Dan Sheppard wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Theocracy, military dictatorship, Soviet style communism, all these star
with a preconception as to what is right and will work, and attempt to
create people to fit the perfect system,and thise ultimately end up
being totally repressive.

I agree with this,

Market based economies at least do not second guess societies shape:
what works tends to flourish and what doesn't falls by the wayside.

But I'm not so sure about this. Isn't this what futures and hedge
markets do?

Dan.

Almost the reverse. They attempt to secondn guess a what tbe future
economic shape of the economy will be for sure, but their actions
usually tend to make things if more volatile, ultimately act against
their expectations.

i.e.todays oil futures account for and etsimated 20% of the price RISE
(Barclays Capital).

That means that oil prices are higher, and therefore arguably
consumption lower, than if the hedge funds had not interfered, thus
providing a net downward pressure on prices.

Futures both amplify volatility and swings, and act to bring on the more
fundamental market negative feedback, quicker.

Its a sort of feed forward system: Can lead to instability, but can also
make changes a lot less sluggish.

Paul Treadaway wrote:
Dan Sheppard wrote in
:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Theocracy, military dictatorship, Soviet style communism, all these star
with a preconception as to what is right and will work, and attempt to
create people to fit the perfect system,and thise ultimately end up
being totally repressive.
I agree with this,

Market based economies at least do not second guess societies shape:
what works tends to flourish and what doesn't falls by the wayside.
But I'm not so sure about this. Isn't this what futures and hedge
markets do?

The same would apply to them - if they stopped being profitable they
would disappear. But in market based economies there is in fact an
ideology (usually something like less government regulation = Good
Thing) that is imposed. People aren't always happy with the results
of such a system either (hence all the complaints about fat cats,
people being rewarded for failure, the failure of the market to provide
pensions, cheap fuel etc.) And when things would fall by the wayside
(e.g. Northern Rock), it often isn't politically possible to let that happen.
As with the other ideologies mentioned, the reality is usually some
kind of messy compromise. In fact more or less every society ends
up that way in practice, suggesting that messy compromises that
don't give one group too much power are actually the normal state
of human society, so a monarchy might talk about ruling by divine
right, but still end up making concessions if the peasants revolt.


I think the FSA would argue that a *neat* compromise is the intention.
One wants the market forces to control economic evolution,but without
unneccessary instability, panic and loss of faith in the financial systems.

The correct way to handle a Northern Rock would be to implement
insurance that all banks must pay to safeguard depositors deposits: if
that had been in place, Northern Rock could (and should) he gone to the
wall with scarcely a ripple. Fat cats, employees, and all.

That is the necessary line to draw between investors on small returns,
nad the organisation and its investors, working on hoped for much higher
rates of return.

On 2008-06-09 07:36:16 +0100, The Natural Philosopher said:

Dan Sheppard wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Theocracy, military dictatorship, Soviet style communism, all these
star with a preconception as to what is right and will work, and
attempt to create people to fit the perfect system,and thise ultimately
end up being totally repressive.

I agree with this,

Market based economies at least do not second guess societies shape:
what works tends to flourish and what doesn't falls by the wayside.

But I'm not so sure about this. Isn't this what futures and hedge
markets do?

Dan.

Almost the reverse. They attempt to secondn guess a what tbe future
economic shape of the economy will be for sure, but their actions
usually tend to make things if more volatile, ultimately act against
their expectations.

i.e.todays oil futures account for and etsimated 20% of the price RISE
(Barclays Capital).

That means that oil prices are higher, and therefore arguably
consumption lower, than if the hedge funds had not interfered, thus
providing a net downward pressure on prices.

Futures both amplify volatility and swings, and act to bring on the
more fundamental market negative feedback, quicker.

Its a sort of feed forward system: Can lead to instability, but can
also make changes a lot less sluggish.

So it *is* like William Hill....

In message 3, at
16:40:01 on Sun, 8 Jun 2008, Paul Treadaway
remarked:

And when things would fall by the wayside (e.g. Northern Rock), it
often isn't politically possible to let that happen.

I'll add Railtrack to that. In theory such "rescues" distort the market,
but people generally aren't very happy dealing with the consequences of
simply letting the market solve the problem.
--
Roland Perry

On 6 Jun, 16:11, Adrian wrote:
The Luggage gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

Most manufacturers build their own manual boxes, though.
I am not sure even that is true.
shrug It is, but I'm starting to suspect you'd doubt it on principle.
You may be right, but my anecdata suggests TNP may have a point: I took
our Mitsubishi Carisma to have new gear linkage bushings fitted. The
mechanic said, "These boxes are identical to the VW ones of the same
age, so I'll use the VW parts instead of the Mitsubishi ones - I have
them in stock and they're cheaper."

Sure he didn't say "Volvo", since the Carisma and S/V40 are the same car
built on the same production line in the Netherlands?

It didn't sound like Volvo, but you could be right. Mine is
(approximately) 1998 vintage, though, so I don't know if anything
changed in the last 10 years...

TL