"Bob Mannix" gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

Plus the card will charge you at a rate just cheaper than the equivalent
petrol (as we live in a mixed capitalist economy) so the pole providers
can make healthy profits for their shareholders.

You say that like it's a bad thing?

"Adrian" wrote in message
...
"Bob Mannix" gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

Plus the card will charge you at a rate just cheaper than the equivalent
petrol (as we live in a mixed capitalist economy) so the pole providers
can make healthy profits for their shareholders.

You say that like it's a bad thing?

I was careful to not do that (or the opposite). It may be a factor that some
had not thought of when assessing the likely benefits.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

On Tue, 27 May 2008 21:43:09 +0100, CWatters wrote:
Many families have two cars these days so if we assume that one of them is a
500 mile range gas guzzler....is there any reason why most of the "second"
cars need have more than 100 mile range? If reliable 100 mile range,
acceptable acceleration and 70mph could be achieved I'd buy one.

Yeah, I kind of came to that conclusion a few months back, too -
something more thirsty for the long range and something greener for short
trips. Issues:

We have three kids (need several seats),
I often need to move bigger items around (need a big load-bed),
Winters here* are a killer (4x4 essential when it gets bad)

.... I'm coming to the conclusion that we need a big car, a smaller +
'greener' car, and a 4x4 truck. Diesel's pretty uncommon here
unfortunately. Electricity is cheap. Petrol's gone up in price over 3x in
the last three years.

* For the benefit of the uk.d-i-y'ers I moved to the middle of Minnesota
last year - 2ft of snow and temps of -30C in the winter are not uncommon.

cheers

Jules

In message , at 12:04:50 on Thu, 29 May
2008, Bob Mannix remarked:
Plus the card will charge you at a rate just cheaper than the equivalent
petrol (as we live in a mixed capitalist economy) so the pole providers can
make healthy profits for their shareholders.

This is not dissimilar to the situation with natural gas, whose price is
apparently pegged to oil prices, and bears no relation to supply and
demand in the natural gas market.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 11:13:13 on Thu,
29 May 2008, Adrian remarked:
Plus the card will charge you at a rate just cheaper than the equivalent
petrol (as we live in a mixed capitalist economy) so the pole providers
can make healthy profits for their shareholders.

You say that like it's a bad thing?

It is, if it fails to encourage drivers to switch fuels.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 12:04:58 on Thu,
29 May 2008, Dan Sheppard remarked:

Surely there are already metal poles in the ground wired for
electricity in many car parks? You'd need thicker cabling to each of
these new "poles", and many more circuits back to a substation, but I
don't think this is going to be as much as a problem as the capacity
issues further up.

I don't recall seeing any. There's the lighting, of course, but that's
orders of magnitude too low capacity for this.

I'm not sure where you're coming from with this problem of getting the
power to the poles. I thought you were saying that the civil
engineering of such was complex and irritating?

Exactly so. Many carparks are multi-storey, and constructed largely from
reinforced concrete. Digging that lot up to run a power cable to every
bay will be quite a feat.

I thought that
lighting poles would have similar challenges (though admittedly, doing
this at medium voltages would be a little more challenging).

TNP seems to think a 300 place car park is the same as a small factory,
but I'm sceptical he hasn't dropped a zero somewhere.

I'm no expert on small factories, really, so I'm not sure. But I'm not
sure what difference that makes because if you plonk a small factory
where every carpark is, you've got a vastly changed energy landscape
anyway.

No-one is suggesting replacing car parks with factories.

Perhaps it would make more sense to feed these poles at, say, 11kV and
give them each 1/3A. You may want to transform that down in each pole,
or else provide a safety interlock in the connector.

That'll be good to stop people stealing the power for their houses, but
doesn't sound very "all weather" to me.

I dunno, I'm sure the eggheads could sort something out with the
connector: it doesn't have to be an exposed prong plug, after all.
Could be something closer to a petrol pump connector with a flower
like thing on the end, furled up (and earthed) when exposed, but then
activated by an occluded nobble in the pipe which causes the outer
casing to unfurl.

But, why are we doing this again?

So we drive more than 5 miles a day in an electric car

That seems like a bit of a pointless occupation to me.

What, driving only 5 miles a day?
--
Roland Perry

Adrian wrote:
The Natural Philosopher gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

No worse than a medium factory.

I'm surprised a medium factory would take that much power, but the
most difficult part inside the car park is wiring up every bay to the
feed.

...not to mention what happens when some numpty cocks up parking and
takes the pole out of the ground.

Then, of course, there's the scrote factor - how many of these street
poles will be being tapped for domestic electrickery?

Well if the only work when you stick a credit card in them, not many.

The socket out will only work with a card. But the power going in to the
pole is almost certainly going to be accessible through a nice little
access hatch or similar.


Same as any streetlamp?

Or better still, it is switched off at the local point UNLESS a credit
card is inserted..So no power in the cables till you pay..Do the diddies
dig up gas pipes to recharge thair cylinders? Not really.


OK, so the next problem is somebody unplugging your car and plugging
theirs in to your pole.

Cant be done. YOU lock the plug into your car. Anyway, how far will teh
cable reach?


440 AC technology is mainstream in industrial places. I am not syaing
that upgrading stuff wouldn't in time be necessary, but power at the
sort of 50KW level, able to mostly recharge a small car in an hour, is
not a big problem.

Fine. Looking out the office window, I can see about twenty cars parked
either on the road in front of this building, plus the apron of the
building opposite. There's a two-level car park at the back of this
building which has probably another thirty cars in it.

That's 50x50kW = 2.5MW. On top, of course, of the current electricity
usage for the office and light-industrial buildings.


Assuming they are all flat out on charge. But 2.5MW is not a huge amount
of electricity. Its equivalent to about 3333 bhp. Or 6 big trucks
running their engines.

My calculations for a totally electric COUNTRY - i.e every single bit of
oil gas or coal replaced by electricity, indicate a 3:1 upgrade in grid
and generation capacity needed.

30% of road vehicles going electric is only about a 30% upgrade in
existing capacity. An awful lot of infrastructure could cope with that
as it is.

So its not an immediate problem: if it took 15 years to tread that
route, thats time enough for grid and substation upgrades.




Then, of course, there's all the other buildings up and down the road.

And as far as MOST charging goes, MOST of the time people will NOT be
drawing full current. The chargers will, once the battery is full, cut
off.

So those fifty cars are only pulling full charge from 9am to mid-
afternoon...

No, given that the majority of them probaably only did 50 mies, on 'eco
charge'. they would only pull at say the 10 hour rate. 5KW apiece. So
your 2.5 MW would cover about 500 cars easily.

Look, no one is suggesting there will be some massive instantaneous
switchover to electric power. It will happen gradually where it makes
economic sense over 15-20 years. Right now *I* could use a 100 mile
range car plugged into a 13A socket at home with no need for any of this
at all.

I'd still keep the fuel vehicles for longer trips, but not for daily
'pop down the shops' work. I'd probably halve my direct road fuel usage
that way.

I could envisage then, once - say in 5-8 years time - 'fast charge'
stations on major roads existed, going to all electric. I MIGHT have to
install 3 phase at home.

But with JUST that, I personally would not NEED an IC car.

Look at the title. A step nearer mainstream. Not mainstream yet..

Look at the investment in petrol stations, refineries, oil tankers and
the like. That didn't happen overnight, it happened over a period of
YEARS: it won't be Shell or BP on them one day, it will be EDF, EON,
British Energy...

The Natural Philosopher gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

440 AC technology is mainstream in industrial places. I am not syaing
that upgrading stuff wouldn't in time be necessary, but power at the
sort of 50KW level, able to mostly recharge a small car in an hour, is
not a big problem.

Fine. Looking out the office window, I can see about twenty cars parked
either on the road in front of this building, plus the apron of the
building opposite. There's a two-level car park at the back of this
building which has probably another thirty cars in it.

That's 50x50kW = 2.5MW. On top, of course, of the current electricity
usage for the office and light-industrial buildings.

Assuming they are all flat out on charge.

Which they will be early in the morning, when everybody's just arrived.

But 2.5MW is not a huge amount of electricity.

That's for one short stretch of this road. Add in all the other
commercial premises on this one road in this one town. Then add all the
other roads in this town. Then all the other towns.

Look at the investment in petrol stations, refineries, oil tankers and
the like. That didn't happen overnight, it happened over a period of
YEARS

Indeed. A period of years during which demand slowly ramped up. In the
early days of the motor vehicle, you bought a sealed gallon can of "motor
spirit" from the chemist, then the local garage. Bulk sales didn't happen
until at least the 1910s, and probably weren't universal until the mid
'20s.

The problem of such a gradual shift over to electric vehicles is one of
economies of scale.

How would the government cope with the loss of revenue?
The last thing they want is everyone running VED-exempt cars using
electricity that is duty-free and has only 5% VAT.

How do you heat an electric car in the winter? A paraffin or propane stove?

--
LSR

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:04:58 on Thu,
29 May 2008, Dan Sheppard remarked:

Surely there are already metal poles in the ground wired for
electricity in many car parks? You'd need thicker cabling to each of
these new "poles", and many more circuits back to a substation, but I
don't think this is going to be as much as a problem as the capacity
issues further up.

I don't recall seeing any. There's the lighting, of course, but that's
orders of magnitude too low capacity for this.

I'm not sure where you're coming from with this problem of getting the
power to the poles. I thought you were saying that the civil
engineering of such was complex and irritating?

Exactly so. Many carparks are multi-storey, and constructed largely from
reinforced concrete. Digging that lot up to run a power cable to every
bay will be quite a feat.

Get real. They already have surface trunking for lighting. Its only a
ruddy car park. Not Buckingham palace.


When I was running a certain business, the power needed to run the 80
odd PC'S etc etc. was 25kW. in the 8 hours of day, assuming about a
5KWh usage per car, that office could charge 80 cars. Instead of running
80PCs.

I base those figures on a ten mile trip into work. That recharges for
going home I assume the outward journey was an overnight charge.

i,e another way to look at it, is that on average a 50 miles journey
might be say 20Kwh, Over an 8 hour charge period thats not even taxing a
13A socket.

Since the car doesn't get any heavier when charged..well maybe a few
micrograms - there is no incentive to run low on charge. You would
probably charge at every opportunity. On average most people wouldn't be
using a lot of juice therefore.

Sure its a new way of using a car, but if the cost benefit is
overwhelmingly in favour of electrics, people will put up with the
slight inconvenience.

I'd alos say that the availability of a 13A socket is slightly higher
on a 24x7 basis, than an open garage selling diesel or petrol.

LSR wrote:
How would the government cope with the loss of revenue?
The last thing they want is everyone running VED-exempt cars using
electricity that is duty-free and has only 5% VAT.


I think you can rely on the government to find a way round THAT one.

How do you heat an electric car in the winter? A paraffin or propane stove?


Electricity would seem to be a sensible choice. We don't after all use
electric heaters to heat petrol cars in winter do we?

Adrian wrote:
The Natural Philosopher gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

440 AC technology is mainstream in industrial places. I am not syaing
that upgrading stuff wouldn't in time be necessary, but power at the
sort of 50KW level, able to mostly recharge a small car in an hour, is
not a big problem.

Fine. Looking out the office window, I can see about twenty cars parked
either on the road in front of this building, plus the apron of the
building opposite. There's a two-level car park at the back of this
building which has probably another thirty cars in it.

That's 50x50kW = 2.5MW. On top, of course, of the current electricity
usage for the office and light-industrial buildings.

Assuming they are all flat out on charge.

Which they will be early in the morning, when everybody's just arrived.


Why? they wont all be flat. You ould easily dial in - say 'charge me at
8 hour rate' and just pull a trickle out. The lower the charging current
the less the charge losses also. There would be little point in having a
dumb charger anyway: typically lithium ion batteries like a constant
current, with a voltage limit. Its a piece of **** to set the current to
be what ever it needs to be to replenish you in an hour, ten hours, or a
fortnight, depending on what the situation is. I.e. you might only have
a 13A socket, or you might have a 440V 100A one. The charger would sense
that and do what it needs to accordingly.




But 2.5MW is not a huge amount of electricity.

That's for one short stretch of this road. Add in all the other
commercial premises on this one road in this one town. Then add all the
other roads in this town. Then all the other towns.

Look at the investment in petrol stations, refineries, oil tankers and
the like. That didn't happen overnight, it happened over a period of
YEARS

Indeed. A period of years during which demand slowly ramped up. In the
early days of the motor vehicle, you bought a sealed gallon can of "motor
spirit" from the chemist, then the local garage. Bulk sales didn't happen
until at least the 1910s, and probably weren't universal until the mid
'20s.

The problem of such a gradual shift over to electric vehicles is one of
economies of scale.

But it isn;'t. Thats what I am saying.

We already HAVE a grid infrastructure. As it gets loaded up it gets
upgraded. Its far more akin to people saying 'whats the point in having
a motor car when we only have roads fit for horses: we need motorways'

Well, we didn't need motorways for a long time.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.net...
On Wed, 28 May 2008 18:20:33 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

In the middle of "Englands last Wilderness" aka the North Pennines.
Basically 20+ miles from anything other than a small Co-ops.

You will probably have to make increasing sacrifices as a consequence of
that lifestyle decision, as fuel gets more expensive.

Yep, I accept that and we already do. It's to far to go for a trip to a
decent cinema, the theatre or even a good indian restaurant.

We have access to many, never use them though ...

But it's far
better living here than on an anonymous estate where you don't even see
your neighbours 10 yards away let alone know them.

What an odd idea you have of other people's lives :-)

Mary

"Frank Erskine" wrote in message
...

I don't have a TV. Virtually all broadcast TV that I've seen in recent
years has been dumbed down tosuch an extent that the company known as
'TV Licensing' can't offer me value for money, so I eschew their
product.

Same here. You can't be selective about tv programmes before they are
broadcast.

Mary

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.net...
On Wed, 28 May 2008 15:18:44 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote:

They wibble about continental truckers coming over and doing the work
on their cheap fuel, er, once a forgien truck has done a few hundred
miles it will need to fill up at our prices...

Um, what's that to do with your point about being an essential user?

That F.Blogs Haulier Ltd or Smiths Trucking are not using safe arguments
to pitch their case for "essential user" status. They are a business just
like any other. As someone else said, if they haven't got fuel clauses in
their long term contracts or are so inflexable in job costings that actual
fuel prices aren't taken into account more fool them.

Still doesn't answer my question, which was promted by your comment about
widgets:

"Sorry but F.Bloggs Hauliers Ltd taking a pallet of
widgets from A to B is not an "essential user".

"Until your widget supplier runs out when you need one desperately ..."


It doesn't take a genius to use a calculator or plug numbers into a spread
sheet to come out with a job cost. Lets see, average MPG of the truck,
cost of fuel/litre, total round trip distance. A few other factors are
also needed like depreciation on the truck and recovery of its capital
cost, also drivers hours and pay (will it take more than a day? so
overnight costs for driver and/or truck).

So you'll manage without your widget?

And you feel the loss of Indian restaurants ...

Hmm

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...


"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...


Pedestrians shouldn't be sharing the road. Pedestrians should be on the
footpath.

But in many places pedestrians are forced into the road by selfish
motorists.


In most places pedestrians have as much right to use the road as a
motorist does.


But motorists have no right to use the pavement - which they do, thus
forcing pedestrians into the road.

You should drive appropriately not expect a pedestrian to jump out of the
way.

I agree, but don't you agree that pedestrians shouldn't be forced to walk on
the road? If they choose to that's a different matter.

How long did you say you have been driving?

?

That's irrelevant

In article , Mary Fisher wrote:

I don't understand your point. Don't boher about trying to explain, I shan't
bother to read any more.

I'll assume anyone who could bother to read understood it unless asked
for an explanation by someone else then.


They kill pedestrians and occupants of cars too.
I don't LIKE motor bikes of any kind but it seems that they're involved in
fewer accidents than cars, per capita.

But an impact that will write off a car and leave its occupants shaken
will kill a biker,

Not necessarily.

But statistically often.


so it takes fewer accidents to kill them.

Not so.

Given the KSI figures, either yes so, or your fewer accidents claim was wrong.


(Pedestrians are just as vulnerable or more so, but less likely to be
sharing the road with the cars for long distances.)

Pedestrians shouldn't be sharing the road. Pedestrians should be on the
footpath.
But in many places pedestrians are forced into the road by selfish
motorists.

And in other places pedestrians are killed on the pavements by motorists,
and in other places there are pedestrians using roads without footpaths.

"Jon Green" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:


"Jon Green" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:

How long did you say you have been driving?

Do you actually know a way of responding to someone without being
offensive?

Do you?

There is nothing offensive in that question other than what *you* have
read into it.

Don't play dumb, Dennis, the implied insult was pretty blatant. You seem
to need to challenge and provoke, more than to answer constructively. Ho
hum, another killfile entry...

As you please, if you don't like usenet you can always kill file everyone.

In message , at 16:55:59 on
Thu, 29 May 2008, The Natural Philosopher remarked:
Many carparks are multi-storey, and constructed largely from
reinforced concrete. Digging that lot up to run a power cable to every
bay will be quite a feat.

Get real. They already have surface trunking for lighting. Its only a
ruddy car park.

Won't that make the floor a bit bumpy? Car parks have wide areas where
the only surface the vehicle is near, is the floor.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 17:14:01
on Thu, 29 May 2008, Mary Fisher remarked:
You can't be selective about tv programmes before they are
broadcast.

What's that supposed to mean. I know in advance that I do want to watch
next Saturday's Dr Who, and that I don't want to watch tonight's
Eastenders.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:55:59 on
Thu, 29 May 2008, The Natural Philosopher remarked:
Many carparks are multi-storey, and constructed largely from
reinforced concrete. Digging that lot up to run a power cable to
every bay will be quite a feat.

Get real. They already have surface trunking for lighting. Its only a
ruddy car park.

Won't that make the floor a bit bumpy? Car parks have wide areas where
the only surface the vehicle is near, is the floor.

Not, I suggest, as bumpy as the speed humps that are common in car
parks. I thought about the rubber cable duct things used in offices,
etc. - maybe a system could be based on that sort of design.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

On 2008-05-29 16:57:19 +0100, The Natural Philosopher said:

LSR wrote:
How would the government cope with the loss of revenue?
The last thing they want is everyone running VED-exempt cars using
electricity that is duty-free and has only 5% VAT.


I think you can rely on the government to find a way round THAT one.

How do you heat an electric car in the winter? A paraffin or propane stove?


Electricity would seem to be a sensible choice. We don't after all use
electric heaters to heat petrol cars in winter do we?

The Nordics do.

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 17:14:01
on Thu, 29 May 2008, Mary Fisher remarked:
You can't be selective about tv programmes before they are
broadcast.

What's that supposed to mean. I know in advance that I do want to watch
next Saturday's Dr Who, and that I don't want to watch tonight's
Eastenders.

Yebbut you might not enjoy Dr Who, but that episode might not be
representative of the whole series.

How can you select what you might enjoy in advance?

Well, you might have advance notification of the enjoyment score but most
people don't, that's why they say that most programmes are not worth
watching. They had to watch them to know that.

And yes, I know that it's subjective :-)

Mary

In message , at
21:04:58 on Thu, 29 May 2008, Mary Fisher
remarked:
You can't be selective about tv programmes before they are
broadcast.

What's that supposed to mean. I know in advance that I do want to watch
next Saturday's Dr Who, and that I don't want to watch tonight's
Eastenders.

Yebbut you might not enjoy Dr Who, but that episode might not be
representative of the whole series.

Some are better than others, but all are worth watching as far as I'm
concerned. (Some are even in the "so bad they are good again" category.)
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 28 May 2008 12:21:33 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Wed, 28 May 2008 10:56:57 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote:

I find the hauliers demands yesterday of an "essential user" rebate
rather strange. To me an "essential user" would be the fire, ambulance
and police services and only those hauliers involved in the food and/or
fuel supply chain. Sorry but F.Bloggs Hauliers Ltd taking a pallet of
widgets from A to B is not an "essential user".

Until your widget supplier runs out when you need one desperately ...

But F.Blogs Hauliers Ltd is complaining that they will go out of business
with out government help. Well the answer is put your prices up. If it
cost X to transport that pallet of widgets from A to B that is the minimum
you should charge. It's called market forces and being in bussiness. It's
not as if Smiths Trucking down the road is getting fuel 20p/l cheaper than
J.Blogs Hauliers. We are all in the same boat. They wibble about
continental truckers coming over and doing the work on their cheap fuel,
er, once a forgien truck has done a few hundred miles it will need to fill
up at our prices...

According to a trucker on the rajo.

They take an axle out and use the space for an extra large fuel tank.

This enables them to spend a week or more doing runs around the UK
before going back to their base with a full payload and filling up
with cheap fuel, before returning to the UK with another full payload
and a full tank of fuel.

You surely didn't believe that all those Lithuanian and Latvian etc
trucks on the UK 's motorways were competing on a totally fair and
equitable basis.

Derek

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:55:59 on
Thu, 29 May 2008, The Natural Philosopher remarked:
Many carparks are multi-storey, and constructed largely from
reinforced concrete. Digging that lot up to run a power cable to
every bay will be quite a feat.

Get real. They already have surface trunking for lighting. Its only a
ruddy car park.

Won't that make the floor a bit bumpy? Car parks have wide areas where
the only surface the vehicle is near, is the floor.

Multi storey ones have ceilings.

They manage ti ge the ticket machines into car parks all over the place
without any trouble,

And yes, you can have cables in 'sleeping policemen'

On 29 May 2008 11:35:26 +0100 (BST), Dan Sheppard
wrote:

I think that as soon as more stroppy people start using the buses they
will improve.

I'm sure you're right. Slight problem, though, is that if they're
stroppy people the one they tend to take it out on is the driver, and
if there's anyone whose fault it's not, it's the driver. You don't
encourage more people to apply for the work if all they're going to be
is a target for abuse, and a shortage of available drivers is surely
one of the chief reasons for a shortage of available buses at any one
time - or is it?

Linda ff

On Thu, 29 May 2008 21:04:58 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 17:14:01
on Thu, 29 May 2008, Mary Fisher remarked:
You can't be selective about tv programmes before they are
broadcast.

What's that supposed to mean. I know in advance that I do want to watch
next Saturday's Dr Who, and that I don't want to watch tonight's
Eastenders.

Yebbut you might not enjoy Dr Who, but that episode might not be
representative of the whole series.

How can you select what you might enjoy in advance?

Well, you might have advance notification of the enjoyment score but most
people don't, that's why they say that most programmes are not worth
watching. They had to watch them to know that.

And yes, I know that it's subjective :-)

And it applies to almost everything you choose to do in life - how do
you know in advance if you're going to like the meal you have just
ordered, the film you're going to see, the book you've just started to
read, the shoes that felt OK when you walked a couple of paces in the
shop...?

Which makes it, well, if not meaningless, at least rather a pointless
statement.

Linda ff

"Rod" wrote in message
...
Probably a better place in the thread for this post, but I am getting
lost. :-)

We are used to seeing contractors' vans towing compressors. Is there any
reason not to follow that model for electric/hybrids? By which I mean:

Have a pure electric vehicle for short journeys.

Have a module that includes a power source (probably an ICE and
generator).

I've actually seen that done. I was at an event in the USA several years ago
and a Tzero turned up towing a trailer with a generator on it. They had
driven it quite a long way to get there as I recall. I thought they said it
wasn't really a practical proposition but perhaps that has changed.

Photo here..

http://www.evworld.com/images/tzero-trailer.jpg

http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero/

Linda Fox wrote:

On 29 May 2008 11:35:26 +0100 (BST), Dan Sheppard
wrote:

I think that as soon as more stroppy people start using the buses they
will improve.

I'm sure you're right. Slight problem, though, is that if they're
stroppy people the one they tend to take it out on is the driver, and
if there's anyone whose fault it's not, it's the driver.

A lot of the time that is true, but not always. There was a really stroppy
woman driving a citi 1 a couple of weekends ago - basically, a totally
unprofessional cow. There were several examples on the trip from Kings
Hedges to the city centre alone! Whenever there was somebody hurrying to
catch the bus, she would wait until they had nearly arrived and then close
the doors just in time and then shout at them through the door that she
isn't allowed to open the doors again because she's technically "departed"
at that point (which is true in itself), even though she was still selling
tickets to the last people in the queue; at one stop, she even drove off
with the doors open before the last two people had even asked for their
ticket, just to avoid the person hurrying to get there, and then proceeded
along at around 10mph because she was trying to drive along and deal with
the remaining ticket sales at the same time. This sort of behaviour did not
happen at any of the other stops when there was nobody else about - at those
stops it was sell tickets, close doors, drive off. They'd be better off
without her.


--
Stewart Brodie

CWatters wrote:
"Rod" wrote in message
...
Probably a better place in the thread for this post, but I am getting
lost. :-)

We are used to seeing contractors' vans towing compressors. Is there any
reason not to follow that model for electric/hybrids? By which I mean:

Have a pure electric vehicle for short journeys.

Have a module that includes a power source (probably an ICE and
generator).

I've actually seen that done. I was at an event in the USA several years ago
and a Tzero turned up towing a trailer with a generator on it. They had
driven it quite a long way to get there as I recall. I thought they said it
wasn't really a practical proposition but perhaps that has changed.

Photo here..

http://www.evworld.com/images/tzero-trailer.jpg

http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero/


Exactly the sort of thing I had in mind. But, I would hope, better
integrated.

Maybe if put into production a super lightweight one could be produced?

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

On Thu, 29 May 2008 22:57:17 +0100, Stewart Brodie wrote:

A lot of the time that is true, but not always. There was a really
stroppy woman driving a citi 1 a couple of weekends ago - basically, a
totally unprofessional cow.

Did you get her driver number and report her? Don't buses in cities these
days all have CCTV because of the abuse drivers receive?

--
Cheers
Dave.

Mary Fisher wrote:

Yebbut you might not enjoy Dr Who, but that episode might not be
representative of the whole series.

This weeks is written by Steven Moffat, who has written many of the best
episodes in the past four series, so there is a pretty good chance it
will be another good one.

How can you select what you might enjoy in advance?

Easy... experience, reputation, and association.

How do you know that you are going to enjoy a book or a CD in advance or
reading or listening? You don't with certainty, but you will be right by
a margin a good deal better than chance.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Thu, 29 May 2008 22:57:17 +0100, Stewart Brodie
wrote:

Linda Fox wrote:

On 29 May 2008 11:35:26 +0100 (BST), Dan Sheppard
wrote:

I think that as soon as more stroppy people start using the buses they
will improve.

I'm sure you're right. Slight problem, though, is that if they're
stroppy people the one they tend to take it out on is the driver, and
if there's anyone whose fault it's not, it's the driver.

A lot of the time that is true, but not always. There was a really stroppy
woman driving a citi 1 a couple of weekends ago - basically, a totally
unprofessional cow. There were several examples on the trip from Kings
Hedges to the city centre alone! Whenever there was somebody hurrying to
catch the bus, she would wait until they had nearly arrived and then close
the doors just in time and then shout at them through the door that she
isn't allowed to open the doors again because she's technically "departed"
at that point (which is true in itself), even though she was still selling
tickets to the last people in the queue; at one stop, she even drove off
with the doors open before the last two people had even asked for their
ticket, just to avoid the person hurrying to get there, and then proceeded
along at around 10mph because she was trying to drive along and deal with
the remaining ticket sales at the same time. This sort of behaviour did not
happen at any of the other stops when there was nobody else about - at those
stops it was sell tickets, close doors, drive off. They'd be better off
without her.

Sounds as though she was reacting to abuse from a previous passenger -
unpardonable, nevertheless. But didn't any of the passengers
remonstrate with her?

I hope someone's reported her and she's no longer around. I use that
route a lot.

Could have been PMT of course irony smiley

Linda ff

"Linda Fox" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 29 May 2008 21:04:58 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


How can you select what you might enjoy in advance?

Well, you might have advance notification of the enjoyment score but most
people don't, that's why they say that most programmes are not worth
watching. They had to watch them to know that.

And yes, I know that it's subjective :-)

And it applies to almost everything you choose to do in life - how do
you know in advance if you're going to like the meal you have just
ordered,

We don't eat out because when we used to we were always diappointed.

the film you're going to see,

We prefer real life, not shadows.

the book you've just started to
read,

If we don't like a book after the first few pages we read another - but we
read very little fiction.

the shoes that felt OK when you walked a couple of paces in the
shop...?

Make our own.

Which makes it, well, if not meaningless, at least rather a pointless
statement.

Well, you made several meaningless statements about the bus drive ... I've
never seen a professional bovine and how do you know what the driver
intended?

Your opinions say more about you than about the driver :-)

Mary

Linda ff

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:

Yebbut you might not enjoy Dr Who, but that episode might not be
representative of the whole series.

This weeks is written by Steven Moffat, who has written many of the best
episodes in the past four series, so there is a pretty good chance it will
be another good one.

How can you select what you might enjoy in advance?

Easy... experience, reputation, and association.

How do you know that you are going to enjoy a book

Already covered, but we do know that a few authors write so well that
they're worth reading. I'm just finishing a Rose Macaulay book, a very
challenging tome which I've read five times, with no break between. I get
more from it every time but I might just leave it for a few months when I've
turned the last page and my eyes have moistened again.

or a CD

We buy very few CDs and only those made by specialist musicians whose
performances we've heard live.

You see, we prefer to make our own lives rather than live vicariously. This
is a DIY group after all :-)

Mary

"Mary Fisher" gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying:

How do you know that you are going to enjoy a book

Already covered, but we do know that a few authors write so well that
they're worth reading. I'm just finishing a Rose Macaulay book, a very
challenging tome which I've read five times, with no break between. I
get more from it every time but I might just leave it for a few months
when I've turned the last page and my eyes have moistened again.

or a CD

We buy very few CDs and only those made by specialist musicians whose
performances we've heard live.

You see, we prefer to make our own lives rather than live vicariously.
This is a DIY group after all :-)

Surely, to be consistent, you wouldn't read books written by others
unless you'd heard them read in public first?

"Mary Fisher" gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying:

I've never seen a professional bovine

I've never seen an amateur bovine. Every single bovine I've ever seen has
been full-time, and earned their living by being bovine, which seems to
be a fair description of "professional"...

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
LSR wrote:

How do you heat an electric car in the winter? A paraffin or propane
stove?

Electricity would seem to be a sensible choice. We don't after all use
electric heaters to heat petrol cars in winter do we?

My point was that there's no, or very little, "waste" heat from an electric
motor, so you're going to need an extra KW or two to heat the car, which
will reduce the range quite a bit if the heater runs off the main battery.

--
LSR

LSR wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
LSR wrote:

How do you heat an electric car in the winter? A paraffin or propane
stove?
Electricity would seem to be a sensible choice. We don't after all use
electric heaters to heat petrol cars in winter do we?

My point was that there's no, or very little, "waste" heat from an electric
motor, so you're going to need an extra KW or two to heat the car, which
will reduce the range quite a bit if the heater runs off the main battery.

I went into ths earlier, actually there IS enough waste heat from both
motor and battery in normal operation. If there isn't the actual heating
requirments of a car are not that great compared with motive power.
Unless stuck in traffic, where unlike an IC engine the motive power is
zero..and so would the heatloss from the propulsion system.