Small 3 Bed Bungalow reasonably insulated.

#Period: 23 Nov07----18Feb08 Kw.hrs used = 6685Kw.hrs.--- i.e 76Kw.hrs/day.
(88days)
16Kw boiler(non modulating),
on time = approx 5hrs per day
Bill excl Vat = £177.80

They seem to have split the quarterly period into two parts so they can
charge at the high rate twice during the quarter.

Don

Donwill wrote:
Small 3 Bed Bungalow reasonably insulated.

#Period: 23 Nov07----18Feb08 Kw.hrs used = 6685Kw.hrs.--- i.e 76Kw.hrs/day.
(88days)

Just over 3 kW mean over a whole day - quite modest.

16Kw boiler(non modulating),
on time = approx 5hrs per day

15.2 kW mean input whilst on - sounds OK.

They seem to have split the quarterly period into two parts so they can
charge at the high rate twice during the quarter.

Price change on or around 18th Jan explains that. The total kWh charged
at the higher rate should add up to the normal quarterly threshold value
(or be pro-rata to the old and new threshold values if the threshold has
changed).

Beware anyone taking Economy 7 electricity from them on the 'Click
Energy 1' tariff: the previously very competitive night unit price has
increased by over 103%! Time to change supplier, again...

--
Andy

Andy Wade wrote:
Donwill wrote:
Small 3 Bed Bungalow reasonably insulated.

#Period: 23 Nov07----18Feb08 Kw.hrs used = 6685Kw.hrs.--- i.e
76Kw.hrs/day. (88days)

Just over 3 kW mean over a whole day - quite modest.

16Kw boiler(non
modulating), on time = approx 5hrs per day

15.2 kW mean input whilst on - sounds OK.

They seem to have split the quarterly period into two parts so they
can charge at the high rate twice during the quarter.

Price change on or around 18th Jan explains that. The total kWh charged
at the higher rate should add up to the normal quarterly threshold value
(or be pro-rata to the old and new threshold values if the threshold has
changed).

Beware anyone taking Economy 7 electricity from them on the 'Click
Energy 1' tariff: the previously very competitive night unit price has
increased by over 103%! Time to change supplier, again...

You can hide, but you can't run.

Expect 50% uplift in all domestic energy prices by 2009..

I stuck some money onto a generalised commodity and energy tracker..its
done +3% in just 4 weeks..justr about covered the *difference* in my oil
bill (£1000 quid, yesterday) since last time. Ouch.

On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 01:57:38 +0000 someone who may be The Natural
Philosopher wrote this:-

Expect 50% uplift in all domestic energy prices by 2009..

The price of the sunshine some use to produce 50%+ of their hot
water over a year will not be going up by 2009.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 01:57:38 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


Expect 50% uplift in all domestic energy prices by 2009..

If that happens and we then returned to very cold winters, the result would be
disasterous for many households.

Andy

On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 01:57:38 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I stuck some money onto a generalised commodity and energy tracker..its
done +3% in just 4 weeks..justr about covered the *difference* in my oil
bill ( £1000 quid, yesterday) since last time. Ouch.

But only on paper, so unless you sell the units you still need the cash to
pay the bill... If you sell the units you need to buy some (at the now
higher price) for the next oil bill. B-(

How many p/l was your oil? Projection for our nes fillup is mid April,
though I expect that to get into May as things warm up and our useage goes
down.

--
Cheers
Dave.

David Hansen wrote:
On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 01:57:38 +0000 someone who may be The Natural
Philosopher wrote this:-

Expect 50% uplift in all domestic energy prices by 2009..

The price of the sunshine some use to produce 50%+ of their hot
water over a year will not be going up by 2009.


Apart from nuclear power stations, all the energy that is used in the
world, including fossil fuel, comes from sunshine.

So with respect, the fact that the sunshine is free, is totally irrelevant.

Everything is free, really, till you try and do something with it.

Andy Cap wrote:
On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 01:57:38 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


Expect 50% uplift in all domestic energy prices by 2009..

If that happens and we then returned to very cold winters, the result would be
disasterous for many households.


*shrug*. Too many people, too few resources. Welcome to the real world.

It wouldn't be disastrous anyway. Just that people would have to buy
more blankets, and with luck, the fashion for bared midriffs would
vanish forever.



Andy

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 01:57:38 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I stuck some money onto a generalised commodity and energy tracker..its
done +3% in just 4 weeks..justr about covered the *difference* in my oil
bill ( £1000 quid, yesterday) since last time. Ouch.

But only on paper, so unless you sell the units you still need the cash to
pay the bill... If you sell the units you need to buy some (at the now
higher price) for the next oil bill. B-(

How many p/l was your oil? Projection for our nes fillup is mid April,
though I expect that to get into May as things warm up and our useage goes
down.


All in, a grand for 2200 litres. I think that made it a base price of
43p or so.

see www.boilerjuice.com for latest sharp prices..

Unlike road fuel which is all tax, domestic heating oil moves with base
oil prices quite closely.

I think this year will see ol in the $90-$120 bracket, with about
$100/barrel being an effective floor.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Apart from nuclear power stations, all the energy that is used in the
world, including fossil fuel, comes from sunshine.

What about tidal barrages?

--
LSR

On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 11:44:35 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:



*shrug*. Too many people, too few resources. Welcome to the real world.


Hmm... I'm quite aware of the real world. It was me who recently mentioned that
the ONLY real answer is that the world's population should be cut in half, not
be increased by 75 million/year, which is simply unsustainable. Why should those
on comparitively low incomes be forced back into the 18th century , whilst the
better off simply shrug their shoulder and continue in their profligate way?

Andy

Andy Cap wrote:
On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 11:44:35 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


*shrug*. Too many people, too few resources. Welcome to the real world.


Hmm... I'm quite aware of the real world. It was me who recently mentioned that
the ONLY real answer is that the world's population should be cut in half, not
be increased by 75 million/year, which is simply unsustainable. Why should those
on comparitively low incomes be forced back into the 18th century , whilst the
better off simply shrug their shoulder and continue in their profligate way?


Why should those on better incomes who have carefully NOT had children,
be required to take care of the spendthrift poor who copulate like
rabbits? And so end up equally poor and miserable?

I wouldn't start claiming moral high ground if I were you. People
standing with their noses in the air on moral high ground are and easy
target for a Kalashnikov.


Anyway the answer to your question is 'because they didn't build nuclear
power stations when they should have, and they did build enough
surveillance systems and weaponry to make themselves the top dogs'

If you don't like it, get into a relatively high income. If you can't.
think of it as evolution in action.

You are then obviously of no value to society, so why should your life
be preserved in preference to any other?


;-)

Andy

On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 14:56:20 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Why should those on better incomes who have carefully NOT had children,
be required to take care of the spendthrift poor who copulate like
rabbits? And so end up equally poor and miserable?

Totall agree. I don't think I ever suggested those without children should
subsidise those with.

I wouldn't start claiming moral high ground if I were you. People
standing with their noses in the air on moral high ground are and easy
target for a Kalashnikov.

There's no issue of moral high ground. Just, what's the point of populating the
world to the point where there aren't enough resources and space for everyone to
enjoy their life, even if they are doing a mundane, yet necessary job ?

Andy

On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 12:10:11 +0000, LSR wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Apart from nuclear power stations, all the energy that is used in the
world, including fossil fuel, comes from sunshine.

+pedant mode ...except geothermal e.g. hot springs.

I suppose you could argue that fossil fuels are renewable over dozens of
millions of years.

What about tidal barrages?

That ultimately comes from the Earth's rotation kinetic energy (not the
moon's orbital energy which is actually very slowly increasing due to the
tides).
Which makes me think:
How long before the moon is twice as far from earth?
How long before the tides are half as strong?
How long before the "months" are twice as long?
How long would a day be at the above times?


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 11:53:57 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

All in, a grand for 2200 litres. I think that made it a base price of
43p or so.

That's the sort of price I was being quoted by most suplliers around here
at Christmas.

see www.boilerjuice.com for latest sharp prices..

No good for us, they don't operate here.

I think this year will see ol in the $90-$120 bracket, with about
$100/barrel being an effective floor.

Hovering around $100 already. B-(

Been fairly stable between upper 80's and 90 dollars a barrel since
Christmas. What's pushed it up from 88 to 99 in the last couple of weeks?

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7266223.stm

Looks like it's the market men getting jittery and shifting into
commodities. Rather than any real world problem, like lack of supply or
wars...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 27/02/2008 01:42 Andy Wade wrote:

Time to change supplier, again...

Check with a comparison site, double check with the supplier's site then
go through Quidco.

Got £60 for changing to British Gas when they turned out to be cheapest
last year and am now in line for £70 for changing to Eon now they're
cheapest.

YMMV

--
F

(Beware of spam trap - remove the negative)

Andy Cap wrote:
On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 14:56:20 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Why should those on better incomes who have carefully NOT had children,
be required to take care of the spendthrift poor who copulate like
rabbits? And so end up equally poor and miserable?

Totall agree. I don't think I ever suggested those without children should
subsidise those with.

I wouldn't start claiming moral high ground if I were you. People
standing with their noses in the air on moral high ground are and easy
target for a Kalashnikov.

There's no issue of moral high ground. Just, what's the point of populating the
world to the point where there aren't enough resources and space for everyone to
enjoy their life, even if they are doing a mundane, yet necessary job ?

I have never found any point to life at all.

The species is biologically constrained to screw and have babies.

Normally disease, famine, internecine warfare and predators would
counteract that.

Civilisation's main thrust has been to render the above obsolete.

Up to a higher level of population anyway.


So, instead we have the strong likelihood that people will starve or
freeze to death, die of disease, or die of internecine warfare.. ;-)



Andy

Donwill wrote:

Small 3 Bed Bungalow reasonably insulated.

#Period: 23 Nov07----18Feb08 Kw.hrs used = 6685Kw.hrs.--- i.e 76Kw.hrs/day.
(88days)
16Kw boiler(non modulating),
on time = approx 5hrs per day
Bill excl Vat = £177.80

They seem to have split the quarterly period into two parts so they can
charge at the high rate twice during the quarter.

Don

My advice is to get your gas elsewhere. I had been with British Gas for
nearly 30 years at this house and my seasonal gas ( and electricity )
bills have been amazingly constant in terms of energy used. There was a
time when they would estimate a bill and get it uncannily right.

Recently their estimated bills have been all over the place, usually
very much in their favour. Very high after prices had gone up and
amazing low when price increases are due to happen. When I tried to
provide customer supplied readings, the updates were ignored, whether
provided by telephone or on-line. At least once per year they threatened
me with disconnection for non-payment of a grossly inaccurate bill which
I had already sent correct readings for.

It was near impossible to speak to anybody who could efficiently sort
things out and I never once got a reply to any letter or e-mail that I
sent - not even recorded delivery letters. The only solution appeared to
be to get involved with lengthy telephone calls, no doubt with British
Gas creaming off a percentage of the call charge too.

Last year I switched suppliers, based on reports of customer
satisfaction rather than cheapness. My bills are even a little lower
than before and the quarterly struggle to get a reasonably accurate bill
has become a distant memory.

After I switched, I got a phone call from British Gas, Customer Sevices
asking why I had left, so I told them that their administration was
appalling, they couldn't sort out problems and nobody within British Gas
appeared to talk to anybody else or keep sensible records. He then said
that he was looking at my account details and they had no record of any
letters, phone calls or complaints and that I must be exaggerating. I
pointed out that rather than me exagerating, he was simply proving my
point. He started getting very hostile and I pointed out that he was
supposed to be working for Customer Sevices. and that shouting at the
customer is not generally regarded as best practice in customer service
circles He put the phone down on me.

In hindsight, I should have switched years before that. It's amazing to
see how differently two companies can behave when it comes to selling me
the same gas and electricitythrough the same pipes and wires.

Roly wrote:
Donwill wrote:

Small 3 Bed Bungalow reasonably insulated.

#Period: 23 Nov07----18Feb08 Kw.hrs used = 6685Kw.hrs.--- i.e 76Kw.hrs/day.
(88days)
16Kw boiler(non modulating),
on time = approx 5hrs per day
Bill excl Vat = £177.80

They seem to have split the quarterly period into two parts so they can
charge at the high rate twice during the quarter.

Don

My advice is to get your gas elsewhere. I had been with British Gas for
nearly 30 years at this house and my seasonal gas ( and electricity )
bills have been amazingly constant in terms of energy used. There was a
time when they would estimate a bill and get it uncannily right.

Recently their estimated bills have been all over the place, usually
very much in their favour. Very high after prices had gone up and
amazing low when price increases are due to happen. When I tried to
provide customer supplied readings, the updates were ignored, whether
provided by telephone or on-line. At least once per year they threatened
me with disconnection for non-payment of a grossly inaccurate bill which
I had already sent correct readings for.

It was near impossible to speak to anybody who could efficiently sort
things out and I never once got a reply to any letter or e-mail that I
sent - not even recorded delivery letters. The only solution appeared to
be to get involved with lengthy telephone calls, no doubt with British
Gas creaming off a percentage of the call charge too.

Last year I switched suppliers, based on reports of customer
satisfaction rather than cheapness. My bills are even a little lower
than before and the quarterly struggle to get a reasonably accurate bill
has become a distant memory.

After I switched, I got a phone call from British Gas, Customer Sevices
asking why I had left, so I told them that their administration was
appalling, they couldn't sort out problems and nobody within British Gas
appeared to talk to anybody else or keep sensible records. He then said
that he was looking at my account details and they had no record of any
letters, phone calls or complaints and that I must be exaggerating. I
pointed out that rather than me exagerating, he was simply proving my
point. He started getting very hostile and I pointed out that he was
supposed to be working for Customer Sevices. and that shouting at the
customer is not generally regarded as best practice in customer service
circles He put the phone down on me.

In hindsight, I should have switched years before that. It's amazing to
see how differently two companies can behave when it comes to selling me
the same gas and electricitythrough the same pipes and wires.

Before she became SWMBO my wife was a BG customer and paid by
continuosly variable direct debit. BG consistently increased the sums
debitted and refused to believe any suggestion that they were taking
more than they were entitled so to do. They took no notice at all of
the actual units of gas used. The only way that she was able to get a
refund was to move house and not continue using gas.

Richard wrote:
Roly wrote:
Donwill wrote:

Small 3 Bed Bungalow reasonably insulated.

#Period: 23 Nov07----18Feb08 Kw.hrs used = 6685Kw.hrs.--- i.e
76Kw.hrs/day. (88days)
16Kw boiler(non
modulating), on time = approx 5hrs per day
Bill excl Vat = £177.80

They seem to have split the quarterly period into two parts so they
can charge at the high rate twice during the quarter.

Don

My advice is to get your gas elsewhere. I had been with British Gas
for nearly 30 years at this house and my seasonal gas ( and
electricity ) bills have been amazingly constant in terms of energy
used. There was a time when they would estimate a bill and get it
uncannily right. Recently their estimated bills have been all over the
place, usually
very much in their favour. Very high after prices had gone up and
amazing low when price increases are due to happen. When I tried to
provide customer supplied readings, the updates were ignored, whether
provided by telephone or on-line. At least once per year they
threatened me with disconnection for non-payment of a grossly
inaccurate bill which I had already sent correct readings for.

It was near impossible to speak to anybody who could efficiently sort
things out and I never once got a reply to any letter or e-mail that
I sent - not even recorded delivery letters. The only solution
appeared to be to get involved with lengthy telephone calls, no
doubt with British Gas creaming off a percentage of the call charge
too. Last year I switched suppliers, based on reports of customer
satisfaction rather than cheapness. My bills are even a little lower
than before and the quarterly struggle to get a reasonably accurate
bill has become a distant memory.

After I switched, I got a phone call from British Gas, Customer
Sevices asking why I had left, so I told them that their
administration was appalling, they couldn't sort out problems and
nobody within British Gas appeared to talk to anybody else or keep
sensible records. He then said that he was looking at my account
details and they had no record of any letters, phone calls or
complaints and that I must be exaggerating. I pointed out that
rather than me exagerating, he was simply proving my point. He
started getting very hostile and I pointed out that he was supposed
to be working for Customer Sevices. and that shouting at the
customer is not generally regarded as best practice in customer
service circles He put the phone down on me. In hindsight, I should have
switched years before that. It's amazing
to see how differently two companies can behave when it comes to
selling me the same gas and electricitythrough the same pipes and
wires.

Before she became SWMBO my wife was a BG customer and paid by
continuosly variable direct debit. BG consistently increased the sums
debitted and refused to believe any suggestion that they were taking
more than they were entitled so to do. They took no notice at all of
the actual units of gas used. The only way that she was able to get a
refund was to move house and not continue using gas.

This is why I still pay elec and gas bills by cheque and check the meter
readings!

Clot wrote:

Richard wrote:
Roly wrote:
Donwill wrote:

Small 3 Bed Bungalow reasonably insulated.

#Period: 23 Nov07----18Feb08 Kw.hrs used = 6685Kw.hrs.--- i.e
76Kw.hrs/day. (88days)
16Kw boiler(non
modulating), on time = approx 5hrs per day
Bill excl Vat = £177.80

They seem to have split the quarterly period into two parts so they
can charge at the high rate twice during the quarter.

Don

My advice is to get your gas elsewhere. I had been with British Gas
for nearly 30 years at this house and my seasonal gas ( and
electricity ) bills have been amazingly constant in terms of energy
used. There was a time when they would estimate a bill and get it
uncannily right. Recently their estimated bills have been all over the
place, usually
very much in their favour. Very high after prices had gone up and
amazing low when price increases are due to happen. When I tried to
provide customer supplied readings, the updates were ignored, whether
provided by telephone or on-line. At least once per year they
threatened me with disconnection for non-payment of a grossly
inaccurate bill which I had already sent correct readings for.

It was near impossible to speak to anybody who could efficiently sort
things out and I never once got a reply to any letter or e-mail that
I sent - not even recorded delivery letters. The only solution
appeared to be to get involved with lengthy telephone calls, no
doubt with British Gas creaming off a percentage of the call charge
too. Last year I switched suppliers, based on reports of customer
satisfaction rather than cheapness. My bills are even a little lower
than before and the quarterly struggle to get a reasonably accurate
bill has become a distant memory.

After I switched, I got a phone call from British Gas, Customer
Sevices asking why I had left, so I told them that their
administration was appalling, they couldn't sort out problems and
nobody within British Gas appeared to talk to anybody else or keep
sensible records. He then said that he was looking at my account
details and they had no record of any letters, phone calls or
complaints and that I must be exaggerating. I pointed out that
rather than me exagerating, he was simply proving my point. He
started getting very hostile and I pointed out that he was supposed
to be working for Customer Sevices. and that shouting at the
customer is not generally regarded as best practice in customer
service circles He put the phone down on me. In hindsight, I should have
switched years before that. It's amazing
to see how differently two companies can behave when it comes to
selling me the same gas and electricitythrough the same pipes and
wires.

Before she became SWMBO my wife was a BG customer and paid by
continuosly variable direct debit. BG consistently increased the sums
debitted and refused to believe any suggestion that they were taking
more than they were entitled so to do. They took no notice at all of
the actual units of gas used. The only way that she was able to get a
refund was to move house and not continue using gas.

This is why I still pay elec and gas bills by cheque and check the meter
readings!

That's what I do, but that didn't stop BG trying to rip me off.

Roly wrote:
Clot wrote:

Richard wrote:
Roly wrote:
Donwill wrote:

Small 3 Bed Bungalow reasonably insulated.

#Period: 23 Nov07----18Feb08 Kw.hrs used = 6685Kw.hrs.--- i.e
76Kw.hrs/day. (88days)
16Kw boiler(non
modulating), on time = approx 5hrs per day
Bill excl Vat = £177.80

They seem to have split the quarterly period into two parts so
they can charge at the high rate twice during the quarter.

Don

My advice is to get your gas elsewhere. I had been with British Gas
for nearly 30 years at this house and my seasonal gas ( and
electricity ) bills have been amazingly constant in terms of energy
used. There was a time when they would estimate a bill and get it
uncannily right. Recently their estimated bills have been all over
the place, usually
very much in their favour. Very high after prices had gone up and
amazing low when price increases are due to happen. When I tried to
provide customer supplied readings, the updates were ignored,
whether provided by telephone or on-line. At least once per year
they threatened me with disconnection for non-payment of a grossly
inaccurate bill which I had already sent correct readings for.

It was near impossible to speak to anybody who could efficiently
sort things out and I never once got a reply to any letter or
e-mail that
I sent - not even recorded delivery letters. The only solution
appeared to be to get involved with lengthy telephone calls, no
doubt with British Gas creaming off a percentage of the call charge
too. Last year I switched suppliers, based on reports of customer
satisfaction rather than cheapness. My bills are even a little
lower than before and the quarterly struggle to get a reasonably
accurate bill has become a distant memory.

After I switched, I got a phone call from British Gas, Customer
Sevices asking why I had left, so I told them that their
administration was appalling, they couldn't sort out problems and
nobody within British Gas appeared to talk to anybody else or keep
sensible records. He then said that he was looking at my account
details and they had no record of any letters, phone calls or
complaints and that I must be exaggerating. I pointed out that
rather than me exagerating, he was simply proving my point. He
started getting very hostile and I pointed out that he was supposed
to be working for Customer Sevices. and that shouting at the
customer is not generally regarded as best practice in customer
service circles He put the phone down on me. In hindsight, I
should have switched years before that. It's amazing
to see how differently two companies can behave when it comes to
selling me the same gas and electricitythrough the same pipes and
wires.

Before she became SWMBO my wife was a BG customer and paid by
continuosly variable direct debit. BG consistently increased the
sums debitted and refused to believe any suggestion that they were
taking more than they were entitled so to do. They took no notice
at all of the actual units of gas used. The only way that she was
able to get a refund was to move house and not continue using gas.

This is why I still pay elec and gas bills by cheque and check the
meter readings!

That's what I do, but that didn't stop BG trying to rip me off.

Fortunately that's not happened to me, but please do spill the beans so that
I know what else to watch out for!

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 18:57:24 GMT someone who may be
(Roly) wrote this:-

In hindsight, I should have switched years before that.

I think that they believe those who have not left their old monopoly
supplier are unlikely to take their business elsewhere and should be
treated appropriately. It wouldn't surprise me if they have a box on
their computer screens to this effect.




--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On 2008-02-28 22:37:51 +0000, "Clot" said:

Richard wrote:

Before she became SWMBO my wife was a BG customer and paid by
continuosly variable direct debit. BG consistently increased the sums
debitted and refused to believe any suggestion that they were taking
more than they were entitled so to do. They took no notice at all of
the actual units of gas used. The only way that she was able to get a
refund was to move house and not continue using gas.

This is why I still pay elec and gas bills by cheque and check the meter
readings!

I don't write cheques unless there is no alternative organisation from
which to make a purchase. Last year I wrote two. This year, I hope
not to write any. They aren't necessary and are a distinct
disadvantage to the consumer.

Regarding energy bills and direct debits, I have a simple solution to
avoid the game that the suppliers try to effectively get payment in
advance and for a credit balance to be built. I don't lend money to
utility companies.

I look over the previous couple of years of use on a monthly basis and
price the consumption according to the selected tariff. I then offer
the supplier a monthly DD to the value of 80-90% of this. Over the
course of the year, there will of course be an underpayment and they
will attempt to not only raise the DD to recover that, but also to try
to secure a credit balance for the following year. I take the
shortfall, add it to the following year's projection and offer them
80-90% of that or a switch to a different supplier.

That has only been turned down by one supplier. They are interested
in customer retention.

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 08:28:49 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall
wrote this:-

I don't write cheques unless there is no alternative organisation from
which to make a purchase. Last year I wrote two. This year, I hope
not to write any. They aren't necessary and are a distinct
disadvantage to the consumer.

Why?


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:25:02 +0000, Richard wrote:

Before she became SWMBO my wife was a BG customer and paid by
continuosly variable direct debit. BG consistently increased the sums
debitted and refused to believe any suggestion that they were taking
more than they were entitled so to do. They took no notice at all of
the actual units of gas used. The only way that she was able to get a
refund was to move house and not continue using gas.

Why not simply contact her bank(*) and cancel the DD, that invariably gets
the full attention of the supplier. Of course extracting the money after
that may well still be "fun" but at least they aren't getting any more and
don't have access to your account should they really start to mess up.

(*) Visit, write or do it online.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:25:02 +0000, Richard wrote:

Before she became SWMBO my wife was a BG customer and paid by
continuosly variable direct debit. BG consistently increased the sums
debitted and refused to believe any suggestion that they were taking
more than they were entitled so to do. They took no notice at all of
the actual units of gas used. The only way that she was able to get a
refund was to move house and not continue using gas.

Why not simply contact her bank(*) and cancel the DD, that invariably gets
the full attention of the supplier. Of course extracting the money after
that may well still be "fun" but at least they aren't getting any more and
don't have access to your account should they really start to mess up.

You might even be able to recover the money directly from the bank under the
terms of the Direct Debit guarantee if you can convince them that the gas
co. collected the wrong amount.

"If an error is made by the organisation or your bank or building society,
you are guaranteed a full and immediate refund from your branch of the
amount paid"
http://www.bacs.co.uk/BACS/Consumers/Direct+Debit/Your+rights/

--
Mike Clarke

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 08:28:49 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

On 2008-02-28 22:37:51 +0000, "Clot" said:

Richard wrote:

Before she became SWMBO my wife was a BG customer and paid by
continuosly variable direct debit. BG consistently increased the sums
debitted and refused to believe any suggestion that they were taking
more than they were entitled so to do. They took no notice at all of
the actual units of gas used. The only way that she was able to get a
refund was to move house and not continue using gas.

This is why I still pay elec and gas bills by cheque and check the
meter readings!

I don't write cheques unless there is no alternative organisation from
which to make a purchase. Last year I wrote two. This year, I hope
not to write any. They aren't necessary and are a distinct disadvantage
to the consumer.

I'm trying to get my customers to pay either cash or by bank transfer.
There is a significant minority of people who I can't get off cheques.
I think I'll have to either offer a surcharge/discount for cheque/bank
transfer. Alas I might even have to turn down customers who write cheques
but I hope it won't come to that.





--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-02-28 22:37:51 +0000, "Clot" said:

Richard wrote:

Before she became SWMBO my wife was a BG customer and paid by
continuosly variable direct debit. BG consistently increased the sums
debitted and refused to believe any suggestion that they were taking
more than they were entitled so to do. They took no notice at all of
the actual units of gas used. The only way that she was able to get a
refund was to move house and not continue using gas.

This is why I still pay elec and gas bills by cheque and check the meter
readings!

I don't write cheques unless there is no alternative organisation from
which to make a purchase. Last year I wrote two. This year, I hope
not to write any. They aren't necessary and are a distinct disadvantage
to the consumer.

In what way are they a disadvantage to the consumer? Since BT started
penalising me for not paying by DD I have stopped paying by credit
transfer and send them a cheque.

In addition my Osteopath prefers to be paid by cheque - processing them
costs him nothing whereas accepting credit or debit card payments does
cost him.


Richard

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 18:40:54 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be Ed
Sirett wrote this:-

I'm trying to get my customers to pay either cash or by bank transfer.

Why?

Alas I might even have to turn down customers who write cheques

Some potential customers might turn down suppliers who will not
accept cheques.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Sat, 01 Mar 2008 08:07:54 +0000, David Hansen wrote:

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 18:40:54 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be Ed Sirett
wrote this:-

I'm trying to get my customers to pay either cash or by bank transfer.

Why?

Alas I might even have to turn down customers who write cheques

Some potential customers might turn down suppliers who will not accept
cheques.

I have more than enough customers. The cheques are often symptomatic of
other backward ways like not expecting to pay labour rates of 50 years
ago.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

On 2008-02-29 08:44:56 +0000, David Hansen
said:

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 08:28:49 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall
wrote this:-

I don't write cheques unless there is no alternative organisation from
which to make a purchase. Last year I wrote two. This year, I hope
not to write any. They aren't necessary and are a distinct
disadvantage to the consumer.

Why?

- Because writing cheques is archaic.

- Because it usually involves an envelope with a stamp and posting it.
Extra actual cost and implied cost in terms of time to effect the
transaction.

- Because suppliers may not supply goods and services until cheques
have cleared

- Because there is extra time between payment being made and being
received. Depending on the banks, BACS transfers can be same day. I
object to the banks making margin on delay in the transfer. I would
rather keep the money in my account and transfer it immediately before
the due day. Deliberately delaying a transfer of money to make margin
is not a value add to the customer. I am happy to pay the bank for
value added services, but that patently isn't one.

- Because requiring cheques indicates that the supplier is perhaps out
of date with use of modern EFT and may have a similarly slow customer
service attitude

- Because I have less consumer protection than if I user a credit
vehicle for payment.


Those are six good reasons that I won't do business unless absolutely
avoidable by means of a cheque.

On 2008-02-29 18:40:54 +0000, Ed Sirett said:

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 08:28:49 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

On 2008-02-28 22:37:51 +0000, "Clot" said:

Richard wrote:

Before she became SWMBO my wife was a BG customer and paid by
continuosly variable direct debit. BG consistently increased the sums
debitted and refused to believe any suggestion that they were taking
more than they were entitled so to do. They took no notice at all of
the actual units of gas used. The only way that she was able to get a
refund was to move house and not continue using gas.

This is why I still pay elec and gas bills by cheque and check the
meter readings!

I don't write cheques unless there is no alternative organisation from
which to make a purchase. Last year I wrote two. This year, I hope
not to write any. They aren't necessary and are a distinct disadvantage
to the consumer.

I'm trying to get my customers to pay either cash or by bank transfer.
There is a significant minority of people who I can't get off cheques.
I think I'll have to either offer a surcharge/discount for cheque/bank
transfer. Alas I might even have to turn down customers who write cheques
but I hope it won't come to that.

I agree completely.

Receiving them is even worse than writing them because one has to make
a trip to the bank or use some other time consuming means to pay them
in. Total waste of time, when one considers having to find parking
and paying for it, the time taken queuing in the bank and all the rest
of it.

On 2008-03-01 08:07:54 +0000, David Hansen
said:

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 18:40:54 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be Ed
Sirett wrote this:-

I'm trying to get my customers to pay either cash or by bank transfer.

Why?

Alas I might even have to turn down customers who write cheques

Some potential customers might turn down suppliers who will not
accept cheques.

Probably not the ones that are wanted.

On 2008-02-29 23:12:18 +0000, Richard said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-02-28 22:37:51 +0000, "Clot" said:

Richard wrote:

Before she became SWMBO my wife was a BG customer and paid by
continuosly variable direct debit. BG consistently increased the sums
debitted and refused to believe any suggestion that they were taking
more than they were entitled so to do. They took no notice at all of
the actual units of gas used. The only way that she was able to get a
refund was to move house and not continue using gas.

This is why I still pay elec and gas bills by cheque and check the meter
readings!

I don't write cheques unless there is no alternative organisation from
which to make a purchase. Last year I wrote two. This year, I hope
not to write any. They aren't necessary and are a distinct
disadvantage to the consumer.

In what way are they a disadvantage to the consumer?

You have substantially less legal protection than if a credit vehicle
is used for payment.


Since BT started penalising me for not paying by DD I have stopped
paying by credit transfer and send them a cheque.

Which costs you in time and effort to write and post.



In addition my Osteopath prefers to be paid by cheque - processing them
costs him nothing whereas accepting credit or debit card payments does
cost him.

Untrue. It costs him time to process and bank the cheques.

On Sat, 01 Mar 2008 14:49:02 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

On 2008-02-29 23:12:18 +0000, Richard said:



In addition my Osteopath prefers to be paid by cheque - processing them
costs him nothing whereas accepting credit or debit card payments does
cost him.

Untrue. It costs him time to process and bank the cheques.

It's this which in reality is the downside to cheques.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 14:41:54 +0000 Andy Hall wrote :
- Because requiring cheques indicates that the supplier is perhaps out
of date with use of modern EFT and may have a similarly slow customer
service attitude

BACS works fine most of the time but not all customers are equal to it.
We print our BACS details on every invoice and some less than bright
councils still write to us to ask for them. Others transmit the payments
with a cryptic reference such as KLWN or Payments Account - fortunately
we're small enough to be able to guess most of these from the amount.


--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

In message , Tony Bryer
writes
On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 14:41:54 +0000 Andy Hall wrote :
- Because requiring cheques indicates that the supplier is perhaps out
of date with use of modern EFT and may have a similarly slow customer
service attitude

BACS works fine most of the time but not all customers are equal to it.
We print our BACS details on every invoice and some less than bright
councils still write to us to ask for them. Others transmit the payments
with a cryptic reference such as KLWN or Payments Account - fortunately
we're small enough to be able to guess most of these from the amount.

Except that e.g. CityLink use ACL

.... ACL (a pneumatics company who we use from time to time) are just
around the corner from me

took a while to think that one through


--
geoff

On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 14:41:54 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall
wrote this:-

I don't write cheques unless there is no alternative organisation from
which to make a purchase. Last year I wrote two. This year, I hope
not to write any. They aren't necessary and are a distinct
disadvantage to the consumer.

Why?

[snip]

Those are six good reasons that I won't do business unless absolutely
avoidable by means of a cheque.

You gave six reasons why a customer may not wish to use one.

My question was why a business would want to turn a customer away
simply because of their preference in ways of paying.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Sat, 01 Mar 2008 22:01:21 GMT someone who may be Tony Bryer
wrote this:-

We print our BACS details on every invoice and some less than bright
councils still write to us to ask for them.

As we do. The best one was a large arm of government, which told us
that they ignored anything of that sort printed on invoices,
"because it is often wrong". They wanted us to send them a letter
with the same information on it.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54