On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 14:45:12 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall
wrote this:-

Some potential customers might turn down suppliers who will not
accept cheques.

Probably not the ones that are wanted.

Businesses which adopt that sort of arrogant attitude to customers
tend to have a similarly arrogant attitude to customers in other
ways. Such businesses are best avoided.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 18:15:17 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be Ed Sirett
wrote this:-

Untrue. It costs him time to process and bank the cheques.

It's this which in reality is the downside to cheques.

It costs time to reconcile payments into a bank account with
invoices. I'm not convinced either method of payment has any time
advantage for the business.

Paying in cheques can be incorporated into other activities, so it
need not take a huge amount of extra time. It can also be made to
take a huge amount of time if not organised.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

On 2008-03-02 08:54:13 +0000, David Hansen
said:

On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 14:41:54 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall
wrote this:-

I don't write cheques unless there is no alternative organisation from
which to make a purchase. Last year I wrote two. This year, I hope
not to write any. They aren't necessary and are a distinct
disadvantage to the consumer.

Why?

[snip]

Those are six good reasons that I won't do business unless absolutely
avoidable by means of a cheque.

You gave six reasons why a customer may not wish to use one.

That was the context of the thread.


My question was why a business would want to turn a customer away
simply because of their preference in ways of paying.

- Because of the extra time and effort in processing the cheque

- Because of needing to confirm that the payment has cleared

- Because as Ed says, it may well be an indicator that the customer is
going to be a PITA in other ways. For a business that is not mainly
dependent on availability of man hours, this may not matter very much.
For one that is, it is a major consideration if there is a work
backlog and steady flow of business.

On 2008-03-02 08:59:18 +0000, David Hansen
said:

On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 14:45:12 +0000 someone who may be Andy Hall
wrote this:-

Some potential customers might turn down suppliers who will not
accept cheques.

Probably not the ones that are wanted.

Businesses which adopt that sort of arrogant attitude to customers
tend to have a similarly arrogant attitude to customers in other
ways. Such businesses are best avoided.

It isn't arrogant.

It's in the interest of both the supplier and the consumer not to use
archaic methods of payments like cheques.


Utility companies such as BT are quite reasonably saying that customers
can pay in other ways than DD if they want to but that there will be a
charge. This is simply because they know that they will need to
chase a proportion of those customers for the payments and there is a
cost associated with that.

Another way to think about it is that customers who choose to save
themselves and the supplier the potential cost of collection can
receive a discount.

These are just different views of the same discussion and are
completely reasonable.

The customer may choose to go for the non DD method of payment and
incur the £4.50 BT charge. For high users, it may be interesting to
keep the money in the account and pay BT at the very last minute.
However, this is a different discussion.

On 2008-03-02 09:02:42 +0000, David Hansen
said:

On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 18:15:17 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be Ed Sirett
wrote this:-

Untrue. It costs him time to process and bank the cheques.

It's this which in reality is the downside to cheques.

It costs time to reconcile payments into a bank account with
invoices. I'm not convinced either method of payment has any time
advantage for the business.

There are additional steps in processing cheques.



Paying in cheques can be incorporated into other activities, so it
need not take a huge amount of extra time. It can also be made to
take a huge amount of time if not organised.

That depends on the volume, the type of business and the mix of payments.

If I am receiving predominantly credit card payments or BACS payments
in my business and cheques are in the minority (as they should be),
then this is all extra work.

The same is true for the consumer.

If I pay for something by DD and there is a mistake, it is reversed out
and the money appears on my account. The same is true for a credit
card payment.

If I receive a cheque, it's a PITA. I have to go to the town, find
a parking space, pay for it and spend time waiting in a queue to pay in
a silly bit of paper. There's no value to anybody in that apart
from to whoever is operating the car park. To the bank it's a cost
because it involves having premises and the staff in them.

Do your bit for the ecosystem. Don't order that replacement cheque
book. Fewer trees chopped down. Less fuel used to move them around.
You know it makes sense.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47ca78ff@qaanaaq...

If I receive a cheque, it's a PITA. I have to go to the town, find a
parking space, pay for it and spend time waiting in a queue to pay in a
silly bit of paper. There's no value to anybody in that apart from to
whoever is operating the car park. To the bank it's a cost because it
involves having premises and the staff in them.

How bizarre. Do you have some sort of antiquated bank?

At least 15 years ago I rememeber seeing banks offer automated deposit
machines, so no queue. And I've never had to find a parking space and pay
for it to go to the bank, but that could be because I choose where I live
and how I travel to avoid such hassles. Helps with post offices too :-)

Nowadays most of our cheques get posted - freepost envelopes provided by the
bank.

clive

On 2008-03-02 15:49:49 +0000, "Clive George" said:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47ca78ff@qaanaaq...

If I receive a cheque, it's a PITA. I have to go to the town, find
a parking space, pay for it and spend time waiting in a queue to pay in
a silly bit of paper. There's no value to anybody in that apart
from to whoever is operating the car park. To the bank it's a cost
because it involves having premises and the staff in them.

How bizarre. Do you have some sort of antiquated bank?

No more than any other.


At least 15 years ago I rememeber seeing banks offer automated deposit
machines, so no queue.

Using one of those is not a smat move. They simply give a receipt
that an envelope was deposited. Who's to say what's inside? It gets
lost or there's a mix up and the first you know is that money hasn't
appeared in teh account many days later. Then you have to pursue the
issue with the bank and ask the drawer of the cheque to put a stop on
it and issue a new payment. Hopefully by this time, he will have set
up a BACS arrangement and won't use paper payment again.


And I've never had to find a parking space and pay for it to go to the
bank, but that could be because I choose where I live and how I travel
to avoid such hassles. Helps with post offices too :-)

Don't get me started on Post Offices. I could drive further and park
ouside a bank directly, but that's even more time. To be honest, I
am not going to select place of residence based on being convenient for
a bank that I use perhaps once a year and a Post Office that I use
little more than that.


Nowadays most of our cheques get posted - freepost envelopes provided
by the bank.

What a PITA

One still has to write and post the stupid things. I can do a BACS
transfer in 20 seconds at the most - a minute (once off) if it's a new
payee.

On Sun, 2008-03-02 at 16:29 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-03-02 15:49:49 +0000, "Clive George" said:

At least 15 years ago I rememeber seeing banks offer automated deposit
machines, so no queue.

Using one of those is not a smat move. They simply give a receipt
that an envelope was deposited. Who's to say what's inside? It gets
lost or there's a mix up and the first you know is that money hasn't
appeared in teh account many days later. Then you have to pursue the
issue with the bank and ask the drawer of the cheque to put a stop on
it and issue a new payment. Hopefully by this time, he will have set
up a BACS arrangement and won't use paper payment again.

Not at the Nationwide - it scans the cheque, and gives you a picture of
it on your receipt.

Mike

On 2008-03-02 17:53:41 +0000, Mike Humphrey said:

On Sun, 2008-03-02 at 16:29 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-03-02 15:49:49 +0000, "Clive George" said:

At least 15 years ago I rememeber seeing banks offer automated deposit
machines, so no queue.

Using one of those is not a smat move. They simply give a receipt
that an envelope was deposited. Who's to say what's inside? It gets
lost or there's a mix up and the first you know is that money hasn't
appeared in teh account many days later. Then you have to pursue the
issue with the bank and ask the drawer of the cheque to put a stop on
it and issue a new payment. Hopefully by this time, he will have set
up a BACS arrangement and won't use paper payment again.

Not at the Nationwide - it scans the cheque, and gives you a picture of
it on your receipt.

Mike

I wouldn't dream of dealing with an ex-building society bank. I've
tried 2 or 3 at various times and found them dreadful.

On Sun, 2008-03-02 at 18:11 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-03-02 17:53:41 +0000, Mike Humphrey said:

On Sun, 2008-03-02 at 16:29 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-03-02 15:49:49 +0000, "Clive George" said:

At least 15 years ago I rememeber seeing banks offer automated deposit
machines, so no queue.

Using one of those is not a smat move. They simply give a receipt
that an envelope was deposited. Who's to say what's inside? It gets
lost or there's a mix up and the first you know is that money hasn't
appeared in teh account many days later. Then you have to pursue the
issue with the bank and ask the drawer of the cheque to put a stop on
it and issue a new payment. Hopefully by this time, he will have set
up a BACS arrangement and won't use paper payment again.

Not at the Nationwide - it scans the cheque, and gives you a picture of
it on your receipt.

Mike

I wouldn't dream of dealing with an ex-building society bank. I've
tried 2 or 3 at various times and found them dreadful.

The Nationwide is quite definitely still a building society, and has made considerable efforts to ensure it stays that way.
I don't think many of the ex-building societies are still around, except
as brand names of the banks that bought them. As it happens I don't have
any accounts with banks (former building societies or not), but do have
accounts with three building societies and National Savings.

Mike

On Sun, 2 Mar 2008 18:11:32 UTC, Andy Hall wrote:

On 2008-03-02 17:53:41 +0000, Mike Humphrey said:

On Sun, 2008-03-02 at 16:29 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-03-02 15:49:49 +0000, "Clive George" said:

At least 15 years ago I rememeber seeing banks offer automated deposit
machines, so no queue.

Using one of those is not a smat move. They simply give a receipt
that an envelope was deposited. Who's to say what's inside? It gets
lost or there's a mix up and the first you know is that money hasn't
appeared in teh account many days later. Then you have to pursue the
issue with the bank and ask the drawer of the cheque to put a stop on
it and issue a new payment. Hopefully by this time, he will have set
up a BACS arrangement and won't use paper payment again.

Not at the Nationwide - it scans the cheque, and gives you a picture of
it on your receipt.

Mike

I wouldn't dream of dealing with an ex-building society bank. I've
tried 2 or 3 at various times and found them dreadful.

I agree.

However, the Nationwide does not fall into that category.

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diybanter.com

On 2008-03-02 18:31:08 +0000, Mike Humphrey said:

On Sun, 2008-03-02 at 18:11 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-03-02 17:53:41 +0000, Mike Humphrey said:

On Sun, 2008-03-02 at 16:29 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-03-02 15:49:49 +0000, "Clive George" said:

At least 15 years ago I rememeber seeing banks offer automated deposit
machines, so no queue.

Using one of those is not a smat move. They simply give a receipt
that an envelope was deposited. Who's to say what's inside? It gets
lost or there's a mix up and the first you know is that money hasn't
appeared in teh account many days later. Then you have to pursue the
issue with the bank and ask the drawer of the cheque to put a stop on
it and issue a new payment. Hopefully by this time, he will have set
up a BACS arrangement and won't use paper payment again.

Not at the Nationwide - it scans the cheque, and gives you a picture of
it on your receipt.

Mike

I wouldn't dream of dealing with an ex-building society bank. I've
tried 2 or 3 at various times and found them dreadful.

The Nationwide is quite definitely still a building society, and has
made considerable efforts to ensure it stays that way.
I don't think many of the ex-building societies are still around, except
as brand names of the banks that bought them. As it happens I don't have
any accounts with banks (former building societies or not), but do have
accounts with three building societies and National Savings.

Mike

Oh dear.

Last time I went into one of those, they were still in the mindset that
they are doing their customers a favour by agreeing to do business with
them. There was a queue almost out of the door while the cashiers
nattered about goodness knows what with each customer - didn't have
anything to do with financial transactions as far as I could tell.

Fortunately, these outdated organisations are in steady decline to oblivion.

On Sun, 02 Mar 2008 18:11:32 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

On 2008-03-02 17:53:41 +0000, Mike Humphrey
said:

On Sun, 2008-03-02 at 16:29 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-03-02 15:49:49 +0000, "Clive George"
said:

At least 15 years ago I rememeber seeing banks offer automated
deposit machines, so no queue.

Using one of those is not a smat move. They simply give a receipt
that an envelope was deposited. Who's to say what's inside? It
gets lost or there's a mix up and the first you know is that money
hasn't appeared in teh account many days later. Then you have to
pursue the issue with the bank and ask the drawer of the cheque to put
a stop on it and issue a new payment. Hopefully by this time, he
will have set up a BACS arrangement and won't use paper payment again.

Not at the Nationwide - it scans the cheque, and gives you a picture of
it on your receipt.

Mike

I wouldn't dream of dealing with an ex-building society bank. I've
tried 2 or 3 at various times and found them dreadful.

I am a happy Nationwide customer. This is the only national true mutual
BSoc left.
When all my cards were stolen this was the most effective, helpful and
quickest organization to deal with. [Abbey was the worst needing to send
out the passcodes three times].

I can move all the money around internal accounts in seconds.

They do not have much in common with C19 building societies except that
it's mutual and they pay higher interest rate.

It is interesting to note the route by which I became a Nationwide
customer:

In order to have an account with a trading name Nat West charge a three
digit sum, based on transaction volume. So I opened a "treasurers'
account" with the Nationwide. Thus I could pay in cheques made out to my
trading name. I asked NatWest to do the same when they refused I moved my
account to the Nationwide to simplify the clearance of such cheques.
This is a classic example of the inflexibility of the bank losing a
customer of 30 years.

To be fair Nationwide lost a Charity account because they did not give me
an adequate explanation as to why they paid four times more interest on
personal deposits as opposed to 'corporate' deposits. I pointed out that
the transaction pattern of the Charity was very similar to a personal
savings account and not a business. Not even head office were able to
give me a good enough answer.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

in 709923 20080302 095303 Andy Hall wrote:

If I receive a cheque, it's a PITA. I have to go to the town, find
a parking space, pay for it and spend time waiting in a queue to pay in
a silly bit of paper. There's no value to anybody in that apart
from to whoever is operating the car park. To the bank it's a cost
because it involves having premises and the staff in them.

Do your bit for the ecosystem. Don't order that replacement cheque
book. Fewer trees chopped down. Less fuel used to move them around.
You know it makes sense.

My local pharmacist - the only one in the village and it does a LOT of business - still
has signs on the tills saying "cash or cheques only".
As the driving force of this business seems to be getting the last penny of profit out
of every transaction it would seem that they have a different view of the economics
involved than you do. Perhaps you can come and have a chat with them?

(OT - my local Jewson still hasn't caught up with chip 'n pin.)

The message
from Bob Martin contains these words:

My local pharmacist - the only one in the village and it does a LOT of
business - still
has signs on the tills saying "cash or cheques only".
As the driving force of this business seems to be getting the last
penny of profit out
of every transaction it would seem that they have a different view of
the economics
involved than you do. Perhaps you can come and have a chat with them?

And include my NHS dentist as well.

The practice I visit has prominent signs saying they only take credit
cards for private work. I haven't thought to ask if they take debit
cards instead of cheques as I have used cash for the last few years.

I still write the occasional cheque. The only remotely regular
transactions though are monthly to milkman and newsagent.

--
Roger Chapman

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 17:42:25 +0000, Mike Clarke
wrote:

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:25:02 +0000, Richard wrote:

Before she became SWMBO my wife was a BG customer and paid by
continuosly variable direct debit. BG consistently increased the sums
debitted and refused to believe any suggestion that they were taking
more than they were entitled so to do. They took no notice at all of
the actual units of gas used. The only way that she was able to get a
refund was to move house and not continue using gas.

Why not simply contact her bank(*) and cancel the DD, that invariably gets
the full attention of the supplier. Of course extracting the money after
that may well still be "fun" but at least they aren't getting any more and
don't have access to your account should they really start to mess up.

You might even be able to recover the money directly from the bank under the
terms of the Direct Debit guarantee if you can convince them that the gas
co. collected the wrong amount.

"If an error is made by the organisation or your bank or building society,
you are guaranteed a full and immediate refund from your branch of the
amount paid"
http://www.bacs.co.uk/BACS/Consumers/Direct+Debit/Your+rights/

This can be risky. If they give you a discount for paying by DD then
you may lose this. A relative of mine had this kind of problem with
BT. When he refused to pay the extra they cut his phone off.

M.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47cad5f8@qaanaaq...
On 2008-03-02 15:49:49 +0000, "Clive George"
said:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47ca78ff@qaanaaq...

If I receive a cheque, it's a PITA. I have to go to the town, find a
parking space, pay for it and spend time waiting in a queue to pay in a
silly bit of paper. There's no value to anybody in that apart from
to whoever is operating the car park. To the bank it's a cost
because it involves having premises and the staff in them.

How bizarre. Do you have some sort of antiquated bank?

No more than any other.


At least 15 years ago I rememeber seeing banks offer automated deposit
machines, so no queue.

Using one of those is not a smat move. They simply give a receipt that
an envelope was deposited. Who's to say what's inside? It gets lost or
there's a mix up and the first you know is that money hasn't appeared in
teh account many days later. Then you have to pursue the issue with the
bank and ask the drawer of the cheque to put a stop on it and issue a new
payment. Hopefully by this time, he will have set up a BACS arrangement
and won't use paper payment again.

IME you worry unnecessarily.

And I've never had to find a parking space and pay for it to go to the
bank, but that could be because I choose where I live and how I travel to
avoid such hassles. Helps with post offices too :-)

Don't get me started on Post Offices. I could drive further and park
ouside a bank directly, but that's even more time. To be honest, I am
not going to select place of residence based on being convenient for a
bank that I use perhaps once a year and a Post Office that I use little
more than that.

Bank, post office, shops, station - lots of things. Wouldn't necessarily
have occurred to us before, but we know if there ever needs to be a next
time. You missed the other bit, which is suitable mode of transport - I
don't have parking worries...

Nowadays most of our cheques get posted - freepost envelopes provided by
the bank.

What a PITA

One still has to write and post the stupid things. I can do a BACS
transfer in 20 seconds at the most - a minute (once off) if it's a new
payee.

No, we're talking about when we get cheques from people - hence your comment
"If I receive a cheque" and my "envelopes provided by the bank". Posting
isn't a PITA - post boxes aren't really that rare.

clive

On 2008-03-03 08:29:17 +0000, Bob Martin said:

in 709923 20080302 095303 Andy Hall wrote:

If I receive a cheque, it's a PITA. I have to go to the town, find
a parking space, pay for it and spend time waiting in a queue to pay in
a silly bit of paper. There's no value to anybody in that apart
from to whoever is operating the car park. To the bank it's a cost
because it involves having premises and the staff in them.

Do your bit for the ecosystem. Don't order that replacement cheque
book. Fewer trees chopped down. Less fuel used to move them around.
You know it makes sense.

My local pharmacist - the only one in the village and it does a LOT of
business - still
has signs on the tills saying "cash or cheques only".
As the driving force of this business seems to be getting the last
penny of profit out
of every transaction it would seem that they have a different view of
the economics
involved than you do. Perhaps you can come and have a chat with them?

There's probably no hope. Until people understand that time has an
associated cost in many ways, they are not going to see the point.



(OT - my local Jewson still hasn't caught up with chip 'n pin.)

On 2008-03-03 13:07:43 +0000, "Clive George" said:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47cad5f8@qaanaaq...
On 2008-03-02 15:49:49 +0000, "Clive George" said:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:47ca78ff@qaanaaq...

If I receive a cheque, it's a PITA. I have to go to the town, find
a parking space, pay for it and spend time waiting in a queue to pay in
a silly bit of paper. There's no value to anybody in that apart
from to whoever is operating the car park. To the bank it's a cost
because it involves having premises and the staff in them.

How bizarre. Do you have some sort of antiquated bank?

No more than any other.


At least 15 years ago I rememeber seeing banks offer automated deposit
machines, so no queue.

Using one of those is not a smat move. They simply give a receipt
that an envelope was deposited. Who's to say what's inside? It gets
lost or there's a mix up and the first you know is that money hasn't
appeared in teh account many days later. Then you have to pursue the
issue with the bank and ask the drawer of the cheque to put a stop on
it and issue a new payment. Hopefully by this time, he will have set
up a BACS arrangement and won't use paper payment again.

IME you worry unnecessarily.

I don't worry at all. I just avoid being involved with cheques if it
can be avoided.




And I've never had to find a parking space and pay for it to go to the
bank, but that could be because I choose where I live and how I travel
to avoid such hassles. Helps with post offices too :-)

Don't get me started on Post Offices. I could drive further and park
ouside a bank directly, but that's even more time. To be honest, I
am not going to select place of residence based on being convenient for
a bank that I use perhaps once a year and a Post Office that I use
little more than that.

Bank, post office, shops, station - lots of things. Wouldn't
necessarily have occurred to us before, but we know if there ever needs
to be a next time. You missed the other bit, which is suitable mode of
transport - I don't have parking worries...

I don't have parking worries either. I avoid using places where
parking is a pain if at all possible.




Nowadays most of our cheques get posted - freepost envelopes provided
by the bank.

What a PITA

One still has to write and post the stupid things. I can do a BACS
transfer in 20 seconds at the most - a minute (once off) if it's a new
payee.

No, we're talking about when we get cheques from people - hence your
comment "If I receive a cheque" and my "envelopes provided by the
bank". Posting isn't a PITA - post boxes aren't really that rare.

There's no need for the use of cheques at all, so the issue is as
equally true for sending as well as receiving payment. I don't
write cheques to send to people unless there is absolutely no
alternative. I will choose a different supplier if one won't accept
EFT in some form. Equally, I see no reason for somebody sending me
money to waste my time and theirs by sending bits of paper. It isn't
necessary.

On 2008-03-03 11:22:25 +0000, Roger said:

The message
from Bob Martin contains these words:

My local pharmacist - the only one in the village and it does a LOT of
business - still
has signs on the tills saying "cash or cheques only".
As the driving force of this business seems to be getting the last
penny of profit out
of every transaction it would seem that they have a different view of
the economics
involved than you do. Perhaps you can come and have a chat with them?

And include my NHS dentist as well.

Do they still exist?


The practice I visit has prominent signs saying they only take credit
cards for private work. I haven't thought to ask if they take debit
cards instead of cheques as I have used cash for the last few years.

I still write the occasional cheque. The only remotely regular
transactions though are monthly to milkman and newsagent.

I cancelled newspaper delivery for that reason. This was after a
discussion that I would be perfectly happy to pay them by BACS. They
said that a lot of their customers had been asking for that and some
were cancelling or moving their business elsewhere. One would have
thought that this might have been a wake up call, but no.

That newsagent is no longer and the shop is selling something else.

In message 47cc18e3@qaanaaq, Andy Hall writes
On 2008-03-03 08:29:17 +0000, Bob Martin said:

in 709923 20080302 095303 Andy Hall wrote:

If I receive a cheque, it's a PITA. I have to go to the town,
find
a parking space, pay for it and spend time waiting in a queue to pay in
a silly bit of paper. There's no value to anybody in that apart
from to whoever is operating the car park. To the bank it's a cost
because it involves having premises and the staff in them.
Do your bit for the ecosystem. Don't order that replacement cheque
book. Fewer trees chopped down. Less fuel used to move them around.
You know it makes sense.
My local pharmacist - the only one in the village and it does a LOT
of business - still
has signs on the tills saying "cash or cheques only".
As the driving force of this business seems to be getting the last
penny of profit out
of every transaction it would seem that they have a different view of
the economics
involved than you do. Perhaps you can come and have a chat with them?

There's probably no hope. Until people understand that time has an
associated cost in many ways, they are not going to see the point.

Like the occasional person who asks why I can't "just pop down to the
post office" to dispatch a pcb to them

15 minute walk, 10 minutes waiting behind old grannies getting their
pension ...


--
geoff

On 2008-03-04 09:12:41 +0000, Huge said:

On 2008-03-03, Andy Hall wrote:

I don't worry at all. I just avoid being involved with cheques if it
can be avoided.

Nonetheless, you have spent more time posting on this topic (and indeed, I have
spent reading it) than I have spent dealing with cheques in the last year.

I know.

Just doing my small bit to hasten the demise of outdated methods.

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-03-04 09:12:41 +0000, Huge said:

On 2008-03-03, Andy Hall wrote:

I don't worry at all. I just avoid being involved with cheques if it
can be avoided.

Nonetheless, you have spent more time posting on this topic (and
indeed, I have
spent reading it) than I have spent dealing with cheques in the last
year.

I know.

Just doing my small bit to hasten the demise of outdated methods.


Demise.

Strangely enough, its harder to forge a signature than to forge a PIN...

I wouldn't say cheques are as outmoded as you think.

On 2008-03-04 11:47:06 +0000, The Natural Philosopher said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-03-04 09:12:41 +0000, Huge said:

On 2008-03-03, Andy Hall wrote:

I don't worry at all. I just avoid being involved with cheques if it
can be avoided.

Nonetheless, you have spent more time posting on this topic (and indeed, I have
spent reading it) than I have spent dealing with cheques in the last year.

I know.

Just doing my small bit to hasten the demise of outdated methods.


Demise.

Strangely enough, its harder to forge a signature than to forge a PIN...

I wouldn't say cheques are as outmoded as you think.

That would assume that they are checked (or even chequed)

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-03-04 11:47:06 +0000, The Natural Philosopher said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-03-04 09:12:41 +0000, Huge said:

On 2008-03-03, Andy Hall wrote:

I don't worry at all. I just avoid being involved with cheques
if it
can be avoided.

Nonetheless, you have spent more time posting on this topic (and
indeed, I have
spent reading it) than I have spent dealing with cheques in the last
year.

I know.

Just doing my small bit to hasten the demise of outdated methods.


Demise.

Strangely enough, its harder to forge a signature than to forge a PIN...

I wouldn't say cheques are as outmoded as you think.

That would assume that they are checked (or even chequed)


audit trail. If one arrivse with someone elses sig. on its pretty clear
its the banks fault.

And its a lot harder to duplicate a chequebook than a credit card..

On 2008-03-05 03:50:31 +0000, The Natural Philosopher said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-03-04 11:47:06 +0000, The Natural Philosopher said:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-03-04 09:12:41 +0000, Huge said:

On 2008-03-03, Andy Hall wrote:

I don't worry at all. I just avoid being involved with cheques if it
can be avoided.

Nonetheless, you have spent more time posting on this topic (and indeed, I have
spent reading it) than I have spent dealing with cheques in the last year.

I know.

Just doing my small bit to hasten the demise of outdated methods.


Demise.

Strangely enough, its harder to forge a signature than to forge a PIN...

I wouldn't say cheques are as outmoded as you think.

That would assume that they are checked (or even chequed)


audit trail. If one arrivse with someone elses sig. on its pretty clear
its the banks fault.

Hmm....


And its a lot harder to duplicate a chequebook than a credit card..

I'm not sure that that matters when there are numerous card holder
protections in the event of this and other CC frauds.

I don't think that either are compelling arguments to justify
continuation of the use of cheques. I did also include BACS and DD
etc in the realm of non-cheque payment methods

On Tue, 04 Mar 2008 11:47:06 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:
On 2008-03-04 09:12:41 +0000, Huge said:

On 2008-03-03, Andy Hall wrote:

I don't worry at all. I just avoid being involved with cheques if it
can be avoided.

Nonetheless, you have spent more time posting on this topic (and
indeed, I have
spent reading it) than I have spent dealing with cheques in the last
year.

I know.

Just doing my small bit to hasten the demise of outdated methods.


Demise.

Strangely enough, its harder to forge a signature than to forge a PIN...

I wouldn't say cheques are as outmoded as you think.

Going back to the old saying "the customer is always right" then they
should be able to pay anyway they like. I take paypal on ebay sales
even though it cost me extra.

What I object to is BT charging 3.75 to provide a paper bill. It
can't cost that much! (1.25 per month "discount" for paperless
billing, one bill every 3 months).

M.

On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 15:37:40 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

On 2008-03-03 11:22:25 +0000, Roger said:

The message
from Bob Martin contains these words:

My local pharmacist - the only one in the village and it does a LOT of
business - still
has signs on the tills saying "cash or cheques only".
As the driving force of this business seems to be getting the last
penny of profit out
of every transaction it would seem that they have a different view of
the economics
involved than you do. Perhaps you can come and have a chat with them?

And include my NHS dentist as well.

Do they still exist?

Rumours have it that there are still some NHS dentists about. I don't
believe it myself ;-)

M.

On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 21:23:33 GMT, geoff wrote:

In message 47cc18e3@qaanaaq, Andy Hall writes
On 2008-03-03 08:29:17 +0000, Bob Martin said:

in 709923 20080302 095303 Andy Hall wrote:

If I receive a cheque, it's a PITA. I have to go to the town,
find
a parking space, pay for it and spend time waiting in a queue to pay in
a silly bit of paper. There's no value to anybody in that apart
from to whoever is operating the car park. To the bank it's a cost
because it involves having premises and the staff in them.
Do your bit for the ecosystem. Don't order that replacement cheque
book. Fewer trees chopped down. Less fuel used to move them around.
You know it makes sense.
My local pharmacist - the only one in the village and it does a LOT
of business - still
has signs on the tills saying "cash or cheques only".
As the driving force of this business seems to be getting the last
penny of profit out
of every transaction it would seem that they have a different view of
the economics
involved than you do. Perhaps you can come and have a chat with them?

There's probably no hope. Until people understand that time has an
associated cost in many ways, they are not going to see the point.

Like the occasional person who asks why I can't "just pop down to the
post office" to dispatch a pcb to them

15 minute walk, 10 minutes waiting behind old grannies getting their
pension ...

Aren't they closing all of the Post Offices?

M.

On Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:29:30 +0000 someone who may be Mark
wrote this:-

Going back to the old saying "the customer is always right" then they
should be able to pay anyway they like.

That is my view too.

When I am in customer mode if a supplier is arrogant enough to try
and force me to use one form of payment then I look around for a
less arrogant supplier to do business with.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

The message
from Mark contains these words:

15 minute walk, 10 minutes waiting behind old grannies getting their
pension ...

Aren't they closing all of the Post Offices?

Only some of them.

I put my postcode into the Royal Mail finder box and was amazed at the
number of sub post offices there are in the area. I was surprised they
were only trying to close 4.

--
Roger Chapman

The message
from Mark contains these words:

And include my NHS dentist as well.

Do they still exist?

Rumours have it that there are still some NHS dentists about. I don't
believe it myself ;-)

I still visit one which is why it is mentioned above.

Some years ago (mid 80s IIRC) my then dentist, who I had stuck to out of
a misplaced sense of loyalty when I shifted workplace, suddenly gave me
an ultimatum - sign up to an insurance scheme and go private or get
lost. I quickly got lost and perhaps because I had been forced out the
NHS quickly found me a NHS dentist local to my home and I have been with
that one ever since.

Apart from the prohibition over credit cards (which to be fair the
dentist did offer to overlook when I had to pay for a crown) the other
thing I notice about private patients is the speed with which they get
from entering the door of the practice to entering the dentist surgery.
I have never yet seen one wait more than a couple of minutes at the
most.

--
Roger Chapman

On Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:29:30 +0000 Mark wrote :
What I object to is BT charging 3.75 to provide a paper bill. It
can't cost that much! (1.25 per month "discount" for paperless
billing, one bill every 3 months).

In a recent news item on this, the BT surcharge was one of the
lowest. I suspect that there is some correlation, real or otherwise,
between a willingness to pay by DD and desirability of the customer.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

On Wed, 05 Mar 2008 15:34:12 GMT someone who may be Tony Bryer
wrote this:-

I suspect that there is some correlation, real or otherwise,
between a willingness to pay by DD and desirability of the customer.

I suspect that there may be such a correlation in the imagination of
some/many people in some large customer-hating organisations.
However, I would suggest that any such imagination has more to do
with the convenience of the organisation itself.

It is no doubt very convenient for a large customer-hating
organisation to be able to steal money from their customers,
whenever they feel like it. It is no doubt very convenient for them
to have customers so apathetic about their best interests that they
agree to this.

If those not being fooled into opening their bank accounts to
customer-hating organisations are in some way less desirable as
customers then Ebico would not have been able to trade for the best
part of a decade
http://www.ebico.co.uk/website2008/pages4/g_pricework.php



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

The message
from David Hansen contains these words:

I suspect that there is some correlation, real or otherwise,
between a willingness to pay by DD and desirability of the customer.

I suspect that there may be such a correlation in the imagination of
some/many people in some large organisations.
However, I would suggest that any such imagination has more to do
with the convenience of the organisation itself.

Suggest away. You can't separate cost from convenience in a commercial
organisation and calling them "customer-hating" suggests your grip on
reality is tenuous at best.

It is no doubt very convenient for a large customer-hating
organisation to be able to steal money from their customers,
whenever they feel like it. It is no doubt very convenient for them
to have customers so apathetic about their best interests that they
agree to this.

If those not being fooled into opening their bank accounts to
customer-hating organisations are in some way less desirable as
customers then Ebico would not have been able to trade for the best
part of a decade
http://www.ebico.co.uk/website2008/pages4/g_pricework.php

Well they do say there is one born every minute.

Ebico must make its money by appealing to the guilty consciences of
those who don't need to seek out a supplier that won't vary the costs
according to the expense its customers cause it. They dress their policy
up as equitable but it is really less equitable to treat all customers
the same regardless of the costs of servicing their needs, not more
equitable.

--
Roger Chapman

On 2008-03-05 09:30:44 +0000, Mark said:

On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 15:37:40 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

On 2008-03-03 11:22:25 +0000, Roger said:

The message
from Bob Martin contains these words:

My local pharmacist - the only one in the village and it does a LOT of
business - still
has signs on the tills saying "cash or cheques only".
As the driving force of this business seems to be getting the last
penny of profit out
of every transaction it would seem that they have a different view of
the economics
involved than you do. Perhaps you can come and have a chat with them?

And include my NHS dentist as well.

Do they still exist?

Rumours have it that there are still some NHS dentists about. I don't
believe it myself ;-)

M.

Best thing really. Denistry with the level of funding provided to
dentists by the NHS isn't tenable in terms of any level of quality of
treatment. They simply can't afford to major on it and not go bust.

It would be far better, if the NHS discontinued the charade, took away
funding and taxation was reduced. GPs would be a good move after
that.

On 2008-03-05 11:47:04 +0000, Roger said:

The message
from Mark contains these words:

And include my NHS dentist as well.

Do they still exist?

Rumours have it that there are still some NHS dentists about. I don't
believe it myself ;-)

I still visit one which is why it is mentioned above.

Some years ago (mid 80s IIRC) my then dentist, who I had stuck to out of
a misplaced sense of loyalty when I shifted workplace, suddenly gave me
an ultimatum - sign up to an insurance scheme and go private or get
lost. I quickly got lost and perhaps because I had been forced out the
NHS quickly found me a NHS dentist local to my home and I have been with
that one ever since.

Apart from the prohibition over credit cards (which to be fair the
dentist did offer to overlook when I had to pay for a crown) the other
thing I notice about private patients is the speed with which they get
from entering the door of the practice to entering the dentist surgery.
I have never yet seen one wait more than a couple of minutes at the
most.

Of course.

There is a cost associated with waiting around.

The other factor is how long the dentist can then take over doing the
treatment. Outcome is certainly dependent on that.

On 2008-03-05 11:45:48 +0000, Roger said:

The message
from Mark contains these words:

15 minute walk, 10 minutes waiting behind old grannies getting their
pension ...

Aren't they closing all of the Post Offices?

Only some of them.

I put my postcode into the Royal Mail finder box and was amazed at the
number of sub post offices there are in the area. I was surprised they
were only trying to close 4.

It can easily be stepped up until the rest are closed.


This organisation really has lost the plot.


There was a half page advert from The People's Post Office in one of
the papers today offering Peoples Broadband.

WTF is that all about? Have their marketing department caught up with
the fact that this is not N Korea?

They really have no clue if they are embarking on that tack as a raison d'etre.

Andy Hall wrote:
Have their marketing department caught up with
the fact that this is not N Korea?

It soon will be tho ;-)

On Wed, 5 Mar 2008 17:01:19 GMT someone who may be Roger
wrote this:-

and calling them "customer-hating" suggests your grip on
reality is tenuous at best.

Excellent, more personal abuse. Do keep it up.

If those not being fooled into opening their bank accounts to
customer-hating organisations are in some way less desirable as
customers then Ebico would not have been able to trade for the best
part of a decade
http://www.ebico.co.uk/website2008/pages4/g_pricework.php

Well they do say there is one born every minute.

Ebico must make its money

The small amount of money they made last year was given to a couple
of charities.

However, you have not answered the point I made.






--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54