Any Experience of dealing with Part L Building Regs/Building Control &
how to not fall foul of the system would be welcomed

Particularly:
1. What things MUST be done by a "competent"/qualified person (eg
connect up the boiler) - can I physically install it (bolt it to wall
etc & connect it to the primary circuit)? NB I need a sealed CH system
and new HW cyl. (Not been convinced about Combis, esp flow rate - my
bath HW flows @16 litres/min. & I don't want to get into the Great Combi
Debate, at least not in this thread ;-) )

2. It seems that the fee must be based on a written estimate from a
plumber - which is unethical to get one round to quote when I have not
the wherewithal to get them to do the job, esp as they must know that it
costs £4-5k for most CH- is this just my local Council, or how they are
required to operate?

Ta
Jonathan


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

On Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:43:57 +0000 (UTC), "Jonathan Webb"
wrote:

The following is my understanding. Others will contribute where I may
be incorrect.

1. What things MUST be done by a "competent"/qualified person (eg
connect up the boiler) - can I physically install it (bolt it to wall
etc & connect it to the primary circuit)? NB I need a sealed CH system
and new HW cyl. (Not been convinced about Combis, esp flow rate - my
bath HW flows @16 litres/min. & I don't want to get into the Great Combi
Debate, at least not in this thread ;-) )

You should get a corgi registered gas fitter to install and commission
the boiler. This is something you can even do yourself, however it's a
job best left to a pro who will then take the responsibility if the
system goes kaboom 5 minutes after being started up.

I am not aware of any restrictions on your being able to physically
install everything else - you could pipe the whole system, put the
boiler on the wall, connect the waterworks, etc. But the corgi guy
will be responsible for ensuring that the gas installation is safe -
and he's not going to take a chance on that, he'll want to inspect the
work before he connects up (so don't bury things into the house fabric
which he might need to get at).

2. It seems that the fee must be based on a written estimate from a
plumber - which is unethical to get one round to quote when I have not
the wherewithal to get them to do the job, esp as they must know that it
costs £4-5k for most CH- is this just my local Council, or how they are
required to operate?

I have to admit I don't understand this query. The arrangement will go
something like the following:

You call a qualified corgi guy. Tell him that you are installing the
CH system but you need him to commission it and provide the relevant
certification.

The corgi guy will advise whether he's happy to do what you want, and
at what cost. It may be that he wants to do a little more than just
connect the gas supply and light up - but only he can tell you that.

You then repeat the exercise with a couple of other corgi guys to
ensure you've got the best price.

Finally, you arrange the date/time to make it happen.

Andrew

Do you need a handyman service? Check out our
web site at http://www.handymac.co.uk

Andrew,
Thanks for reply
RE this bit:
2. It seems that the fee must be based on a written estimate from a
plumber - which is unethical to get one round to quote when I have not
the wherewithal to get them to do the job, esp as they must know that it
costs £4-5k for most CH- is this just my local Council, or how they are
required to operate?

I have to admit I don't understand this query. The arrangement will go
something like the following:

EXTRACT FROM COUNCIL WEBSITE....
"Tables C1 and C2 – Table C1 (PDF file 19KB) applications are based on
an estimate of the cost of the work and must be accompanied by a written
estimate that would be charged by a person in business to carry out
such work. In effect, this means that only an estimate from a builder,
or equivalent, is acceptable and rules out the DIY element.
This applies to both Full Plans applications and Building Notices. "

This seems a bit off to me. Also, presumably they want a schematic
drawing, or just a schedule of components?

I want to start off armed with a basic understanding before I get in
touch with our BC officer as his reputation precedes him.

TIA
Jono








--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

On Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:43:57 +0000 (UTC), "Jonathan Webb"
wrote:

Any Experience of dealing with Part L Building Regs/Building Control &
how to not fall foul of the system would be welcomed

Particularly:
1. What things MUST be done by a "competent"/qualified person (eg
connect up the boiler) - can I physically install it (bolt it to wall
etc & connect it to the primary circuit)? NB I need a sealed CH system
and new HW cyl. (Not been convinced about Combis, esp flow rate - my
bath HW flows @16 litres/min. & I don't want to get into the Great Combi
Debate, at least not in this thread ;-) )

There are muliple parts to this.

1) Under the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations, 1998,
there is a general requirement that gas fitting be done by "competent"
person. The Statutory Instrument does not define "competent" in the
general sense. However it does require that people and businesses
doing gas fitting for reward are "members of a class of persons"
defined by the HSE for the purpose. Separately, the HSE defines
"class of persons" as meaning a requirement to be a member of CORGI
and with appropriate training and certification for type of appliance.

There is nothing that specifically states that DIY gas fitting is
illegal, despite what CORGI may suggest. The question mark would be
what a judge might say if something were to go wrong. That is also
unclear, and there does not appear to be any case law to give a
precedent either way.

A typical way of working for DIY purposes has been for the boiler to
be fitted to the wall, flues installed, wired and wet plumbed; and
then to involve a registered fitter to connect the gas supply and
commission operation including the necessary safety checks.
It is also possible to get a safety check done by virtue of a
Landlord's Certificate.

2) Part J and Part L of the Building Regulations. Under Part L,
new boilers are required to have a SEDBUK efficiency rating of at
least 78%. There is very little left on the market if anything that
doesn't. Under Part J you are required to submit a Building Notice
before fitting a fuel burning appliance such as a boiler. However,
there is an exemption to that if you have the work done professionally
by a "member of a class of persons" under the terms of the Gas Safety
(Installation and Use) Regulations (as above - i.e. CORGI member).
The fitter can self certify the work without any requirement to
contact the local authority. There are similar arrangements to
CORGI if the fuel is oil or solid fuel.

3) If you want to have a pressurised hot water cylinder installed,
again a Building Notice is required unless the installation is by a
BBA or Institute of Plumbing trained and approved fitter.
To be clear though, this requirement only applies where the volume of
pressurised and heated water exceeds 45 litres. This means where the
bulk DHW cylinder contents are fed from the mains water. If you just
want to have the heating circuit sealed, the water volume of the
expansion vessel(s) (unless you have a mansion) will be no more than
10-20 litres. If you have this, and the contents of the DHW cylinder
are fed from a roof tank and open vented, then the rule here doesn't
apply. It doesn't apply either if you have an open vented thermal
store or heat bank, where the bulk of the water in the cylinder is
part of the primary circuit and all of that is open vented, with the
DHW bening heated via a coil inside the cylinder or heat exchanger
outside.






2. It seems that the fee must be based on a written estimate from a
plumber - which is unethical to get one round to quote when I have not
the wherewithal to get them to do the job, esp as they must know that it
costs £4-5k for most CH- is this just my local Council, or how they are
required to operate?

I don't know where this comes from. If the local authority told you
then it sounds like the bureaucrats are making up the rules as they go
along. I presume this is the scale of fees involved if a building
notice is required and is linked to the value of the work.

However, you can see in this case that the intent is that for most
people who have heating work done professionally there would not be a
need for a building notice anyway. It's a typical story of
introducing legislation for the purposes of being able to claim great
things with regard to energy conservation for the next Kyoto summit
while having the public pick up the tab.

Did I hear the words "stealth tax"?








Ta
Jonathan

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Tue, 8 Jul 2003 14:12:41 +0000 (UTC), "Jonathan Webb"
wrote:

Andrew,
Thanks for reply
RE this bit:
2. It seems that the fee must be based on a written estimate from a
plumber - which is unethical to get one round to quote when I have not
the wherewithal to get them to do the job, esp as they must know that it
costs £4-5k for most CH- is this just my local Council, or how they are
required to operate?

I have to admit I don't understand this query. The arrangement will go
something like the following:

EXTRACT FROM COUNCIL WEBSITE....
"Tables C1 and C2 – Table C1 (PDF file 19KB) applications are based on
an estimate of the cost of the work and must be accompanied by a written
estimate that would be charged by a person in business to carry out
such work. In effect, this means that only an estimate from a builder,
or equivalent, is acceptable and rules out the DIY element.
This applies to both Full Plans applications and Building Notices. "

This seems a bit off to me. Also, presumably they want a schematic
drawing, or just a schedule of components?

I want to start off armed with a basic understanding before I get in
touch with our BC officer as his reputation precedes him.

TIA
Jono


Remember that this is a broad brush policy to cover Building Notices
and Full Plans applications for all sorts of purposes including
building a complete house.

Depending on what you do or have done and how you go about it, you may
not need to involve the building control people at all. See other
post.




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy,
Thanks - some real meat there-just what I was after. Any WWW or hard
copy resources you could mention?

Yup, our local BC people zealously apply themselves to making peoples
lives difficult (& costly)as well as applying the regs to the letter
rather than the spirit.

My paragraph about the fee comes from here
(FYI http://www.wealden.gov.uk/planning/building_fees.htm). One of the
things I'm trying to work out is if I need to contact them at all.
No point in adding to their workload. But if I must, then I must.

As a bit of a treehugger, I have no problem in increased energy
efficiency, but dickheads making & enforcing policy like this, is not
the way to go about it. What happened to grants for condensing boilers?

Did I hear the words "stealth tax"?
Probably drowned out in by the flatulence coming from our Tone.
With LA grants cut, wherelse are they going to top up their budgets?

Ta
Jono





--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

3) If you want to have a pressurised hot water cylinder installed,
again a Building Notice is required unless the installation is by a
BBA or Institute of Plumbing trained and approved fitter.
To be clear though, this requirement only applies where the volume of
pressurised and heated water exceeds 45 litres.

My understanding is that fitting hot water cylinder requires either building
regulations approval, or employing "an approved person".

James


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.489 / Virus Database: 288 - Release Date: 10/06/2003

On Tue, 8 Jul 2003 21:28:49 +0100, "James"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .

3) If you want to have a pressurised hot water cylinder installed,
again a Building Notice is required unless the installation is by a
BBA or Institute of Plumbing trained and approved fitter.
To be clear though, this requirement only applies where the volume of
pressurised and heated water exceeds 45 litres.

My understanding is that fitting hot water cylinder requires either building
regulations approval, or employing "an approved person".

James


That's what I said. A BBA or IOP approved fitter is an "approved
person" for pressurised cylinders.




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

I missed a word out. I meant to say

My understanding is that fitting **any** hot water cylinder requires either
building
regulations approval, or employing "an approved person

"James" wrote in message
...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

3) If you want to have a pressurised hot water cylinder installed,
again a Building Notice is required unless the installation is by a
BBA or Institute of Plumbing trained and approved fitter.
To be clear though, this requirement only applies where the volume of
pressurised and heated water exceeds 45 litres.

My understanding is that fitting hot water cylinder requires either
building
regulations approval, or employing "an approved person".

James


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.489 / Virus Database: 288 - Release Date: 10/06/2003




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.489 / Virus Database: 288 - Release Date: 10/06/2003

On Tue, 8 Jul 2003 19:05:26 +0000 (UTC), "Jonathan Webb"
wrote:

Andy,
Thanks - some real meat there-just what I was after. Any WWW or hard
copy resources you could mention?

Yup, our local BC people zealously apply themselves to making peoples
lives difficult (& costly)as well as applying the regs to the letter
rather than the spirit.

That can cut both ways of course. If they want to play by the
letter of the law then it gives you the possibility to do the same
thing.


My paragraph about the fee comes from here
(FYI http://www.wealden.gov.uk/planning/building_fees.htm).

If you compare with equivalent pages of other local authorities it
refers to the Building (Local Authority Charges) Regulations and you
will see similar tables.

The comment on your LA's reference in para. 8 does point out that the
charges are based on a written estimate from someone in business to do
such work.

However to add the remark "In effect, this means that only an estimate
from a builder, or equivalent, is acceptable and rules out the DIY
element." ; I think is unneccessary and exceeding their remit. I
would write to my councillor about it, but that's me.


One of the
things I'm trying to work out is if I need to contact them at all.
No point in adding to their workload. But if I must, then I must.

As far as I can see, there would be nothing to stop you from going to
an appropriate contractor or contractors and asking them for a labour
only quote for example for installing a boiler and say a hot water
cylinder. This should come out at under £1000 which is the minimum
band for a building notice charge.

Note that the paragraph on your LA's web site (and I think you'll find
the same in the Approved Documents to the Building Regulations) talks
about the cost of the work. It doesn't stipulate that that has to
include the materials from what I can find.

http://www.safety.odpm.gov.uk/bregs/index.htm

has a lot of information.

The other approach is to not do anything and then to apply for
regularisation when you come to sell the house. Personally I
wouldn't do this unless the self certification game with building
regulations goes further - e.g. with electrical installation etc.
However it's interesting to note that the fee is the standard one plus
20% but no VAT, therefore not much different.

As a bit of a treehugger, I have no problem in increased energy
efficiency, but dickheads making & enforcing policy like this, is not
the way to go about it.

The dickheads are certainly making the policies, basically because
they are of a mind that increased regulation is a Good Thing.

The doubly unacceptable aspect is that the costs of legislation are
being passed directly on to those who didn't want or need it in the
first place.

I completely agree with you regarding energy efficiency and other
aspects surrounding this. I would rather put my money into buying a
better product or more insulation than paying somebody to come and
check up that I've done the minimum.


What happened to grants for condensing boilers?

That was last year's spin marketing budget.


Did I hear the words "stealth tax"?
Probably drowned out in by the flatulence coming from our Tone.
With LA grants cut, wherelse are they going to top up their budgets?

Ta
Jono


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andy Hall wrote in message . ..
On Tue, 8 Jul 2003 14:12:41 +0000 (UTC), "Jonathan Webb"
wrote:

Andrew,
Thanks for reply
RE this bit:
2. It seems that the fee must be based on a written estimate from a
plumber - which is unethical to get one round to quote when I have not
the wherewithal to get them to do the job, esp as they must know that it
costs £4-5k for most CH- is this just my local Council, or how they are
required to operate?

I have to admit I don't understand this query. The arrangement will go
something like the following:

EXTRACT FROM COUNCIL WEBSITE....
"Tables C1 and C2 ? Table C1 (PDF file 19KB) applications are based on
an estimate of the cost of the work and must be accompanied by a written
estimate that would be charged by a person in business to carry out
such work. In effect, this means that only an estimate from a builder,
or equivalent, is acceptable and rules out the DIY element.
This applies to both Full Plans applications and Building Notices. "

This seems a bit off to me. Also, presumably they want a schematic
drawing, or just a schedule of components?

I want to start off armed with a basic understanding before I get in
touch with our BC officer as his reputation precedes him.

TIA
Jono


Remember that this is a broad brush policy to cover Building Notices
and Full Plans applications for all sorts of purposes including
building a complete house.

Depending on what you do or have done and how you go about it, you may
not need to involve the building control people at all. See other
post.




.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Not sure if this is the same but when i built an extension on my old
house the fees were to be based on the estimated cost of the work, we
had a disagreement on the cost and the building control people asked
me to get an estimate from a reconised builder, i refused and did a
material take off with approxamate costings and said that i would
provide "all" labour free and that it was not ethical to get a builder
to give an estimate when i had no intension of letting him do the
work.
we finally agreed on the fees which where a lot closer to my estimate
than his.
It is posible to barter on the fees.
Rob

Andy Hall wrote:

On Tue, 8 Jul 2003 21:37:55 +0100, "James"
wrote:

I missed a word out. I meant to say

My understanding is that fitting **any** hot water cylinder requires either
building
regulations approval, or employing "an approved person


Looking at it again, I think you're right.

Pressurised cylinders are covered by part J which is what I was
thinking about - this is a Health and Safety Issue.

Under part L1 (energy conservation), cylinders become a controlled
fititng. However, for the purpose of complying with part L, I can
find nothing that says that an approved installer must *install* a
vented cylinder. In the Approved Document page 16 it does not even
say that a qualified person is required to commission a cylinder from
the energy conservation point of view.

".... if a suitably qualified certifier is
not available, the person responsible for
carrying out the work should nevertheless
provide or obtain a written declaration of
successful commissioning and make it available
to the client and the building control body."


To this end you will now find that even vented cylinders have
commission label on them requesting the details of the installation and
the signature of a 'competant person'.

I've done a couple of cylinders so far this year but each time the
labels ended up around the back.


Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

Which just goes to show that the lunatics have taken over the government
asylum. IMO a large reduction in BCO's activities is a requirement for the
next governments election manifesto. At least if we are stupid enough to
join the EU, we can move into the continental mode of having so many rules
that we can ignore all of them!
Regards
Capitol

River Tramp wrote in message
. ..
We may of acepted this some years ago, but now the estimate has to be based
on what a reasonable builder would charge.

RT



"rob w" wrote in message
. com...
Andy Hall wrote in message
...
On Tue, 8 Jul 2003 14:12:41 +0000 (UTC), "Jonathan Webb"
wrote:

Andrew,
Thanks for reply
RE this bit:
2. It seems that the fee must be based on a written estimate from a
plumber - which is unethical to get one round to quote when I have
not
the wherewithal to get them to do the job, esp as they must know
that it
costs £4-5k for most CH- is this just my local Council, or how they
are
required to operate?

I have to admit I don't understand this query. The arrangement will
go
something like the following:

EXTRACT FROM COUNCIL WEBSITE....
"Tables C1 and C2 ? Table C1 (PDF file 19KB) applications are based on
an estimate of the cost of the work and must be accompanied by a
written
estimate that would be charged by a person in business to carry out
such work. In effect, this means that only an estimate from a builder,
or equivalent, is acceptable and rules out the DIY element.
This applies to both Full Plans applications and Building Notices. "

This seems a bit off to me. Also, presumably they want a schematic
drawing, or just a schedule of components?

I want to start off armed with a basic understanding before I get in
touch with our BC officer as his reputation precedes him.

TIA
Jono


Remember that this is a broad brush policy to cover Building Notices
and Full Plans applications for all sorts of purposes including
building a complete house.

Depending on what you do or have done and how you go about it, you may
not need to involve the building control people at all. See other
post.




.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Not sure if this is the same but when i built an extension on my old
house the fees were to be based on the estimated cost of the work, we
had a disagreement on the cost and the building control people asked
me to get an estimate from a reconised builder, i refused and did a
material take off with approxamate costings and said that i would
provide "all" labour free and that it was not ethical to get a builder
to give an estimate when i had no intension of letting him do the
work.
we finally agreed on the fees which where a lot closer to my estimate
than his.
It is posible to barter on the fees.
Rob

"Capitol" wrote in message
...

Which just goes to show that the lunatics have taken over the government
asylum. IMO a large reduction in BCO's activities is a requirement for the
next governments election manifesto. At least if we are stupid enough to
join the EU, we can move into the continental mode of having so many rules
that we can ignore all of them!

New house near me are being build with the cavities blocked with cement.
The problem is that BCOs don't do their jobs properly. The building should
not move past a certain phase unless inspected and signed off. the system
should be foolproof, as it is supposed to protect the home owner. It does
not. All it does is protect the developer.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.488 / Virus Database: 287 - Release Date: 05/06/2003

On Wed, 9 Jul 2003 22:27:30 +0100, "Capitol"
wrote:

Which just goes to show that the lunatics have taken over the government
asylum. IMO a large reduction in BCO's activities is a requirement for the
next governments election manifesto. At least if we are stupid enough to
join the EU, we can move into the continental mode of having so many rules
that we can ignore all of them!

That works until someone decides to sue you, then the lawyer pressing
the claim has a wide choice of options with which to nail your arse to
the wall.

Andrew

Do you need a handyman service? Check out our
web site at http://www.handymac.co.uk

That isn't a BCO problem. That's a site foreman quality control problem. The
building trade has always had it's share of cowboys and piecework
bricklaying is notorious for them. The BCO's primary job is to check that
there are not so many defects in the structure that it is going to fall down
or injure the occupants. The BCO's job has been changed into a tax
gathering, box ticking exercise with more boxes and BCO's added every day.
The buildings will still fall down, but as the boxes have been ticked it's
nobody's fault. Exactly the same as Education, the NHS, the railways, MoD
equipment, the list is endless, as is the certainty of even more expensive
useless paperwork.
Regards
Capitol
IMM wrote in message ...

"Capitol" wrote in message
...

Which just goes to show that the lunatics have taken over the government
asylum. IMO a large reduction in BCO's activities is a requirement for
the
next governments election manifesto. At least if we are stupid enough to
join the EU, we can move into the continental mode of having so many
rules
that we can ignore all of them!

New house near me are being build with the cavities blocked with cement.
The problem is that BCOs don't do their jobs properly. The building should
not move past a certain phase unless inspected and signed off. the system
should be foolproof, as it is supposed to protect the home owner. It does
not. All it does is protect the developer.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.488 / Virus Database: 287 - Release Date: 05/06/2003

That's why you carry liability insurance! or alternatively have you ever
tried suing a bankrupt builder?
Regards
Capitol

Andrew McKay wrote in message ...
On Wed, 9 Jul 2003 22:27:30 +0100, "Capitol"
wrote:

Which just goes to show that the lunatics have taken over the government
asylum. IMO a large reduction in BCO's activities is a requirement for the
next governments election manifesto. At least if we are stupid enough to
join the EU, we can move into the continental mode of having so many rules
that we can ignore all of them!

That works until someone decides to sue you, then the lawyer pressing
the claim has a wide choice of options with which to nail your arse to
the wall.

Andrew

Do you need a handyman service? Check out our
web site at http://www.handymac.co.uk

In article , Imm wrote:
New house near me are being build with the cavities blocked with
cement. The problem is that BCOs don't do their jobs properly.
The building should not move past a certain phase unless
inspected and signed off. the system should be foolproof, as it
is supposed to protect the home owner. It does not. All it
does is protect the developer.

If it's a new house there's more than a fair chance that building
control enforcement is down to the NHBC not the LA. As Capitol
points outs, the BCO's job is not to ensure that the job is done
right, merely to confirm that the work has been done correctly.
Guys on a car production line who let standards slip on the basis
that they'd fix it if the inspector noticed wouldn't last long.

There are also problems of liability: in my BCO days the builder
was obliged (in theory) to give written notice at various stages
of the work, but there was no staged inspection between dpc and
completion. The attitude of my LA was that they would do
'statutory' inspections only partly because of limited staff and
partly so as not to create further potential liabilities by
choosing to make inspections voluntarily. Many of us still chose
to do a roof truss before tiling inspection as that was a source
of more than a few problems.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser
http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

From the chaotic regions of the Cryptosphere, Andy Hall
wrote on Tue, 08 Jul 2003 22:19:19 +0100:

However to add the remark "In effect, this means that only an estimate
from a builder, or equivalent, is acceptable and rules out the DIY
element." ; I think is unneccessary and exceeding their remit. I
would write to my councillor about it, but that's me.

What (I think) that means is that even if the work is being carried
out as DIY, then a suitable amount for labour needs to be added in
equivalent to a professional's hourly rate.
--
Hugo Nebula
"You know, I'd rather see this on TV,
Tones it down" - Laurie Anderson