"graham" wrote in message
news:rJ9vg.212240$IK3.34499@pd7tw1no...

"Ophelia" wrote in message
...
The Reid wrote:
Following up to Mary Fisher

the spelcheck helps, but the gas fitter has now goneth.....with
£600.

Hmm. Heard of d-i-y?

I don't do gas DIY! Electric, yes, all done before the new reg,
of course.

Mike, as any fule no you are not *allowed* to do d-i-y with gas!

As I am sure *you* knew!

He was still thinking of the barmaid when he wrote that:-)

Probably

In message , The Reid
writes
Following up to Mary Fisher

I'm always on DIY but I lurk until I
have a problem, which might be today as the gas fitter cometh.

How can you type so well with crossed fingers?

the spelcheck helps, but the gas fitter has now goneth.....with
£600.

Ah well ...

if you spent more time in uk.d-i-y instead of F+D.misc

--
geoff

In message , Ophelia
writes
The Reid wrote:
Following up to Mary Fisher

the spelcheck helps, but the gas fitter has now goneth.....with
£600.

Hmm. Heard of d-i-y?

I don't do gas DIY! Electric, yes, all done before the new reg,
of course.

Mike, as any fule no you are not *allowed* to do d-i-y with gas!

As I am sure *you* knew!

Why, is there something wrong with Mike ?


--
geoff

In message , Derek ^
writes

With reference to Robert Townshends book "Up the Organisation"

AAMOF ctually referring to the joint use public purchasing schemes in
the US, but the NHS is certainly no better.

" For all that They actually *do* pay more for a pencil than you do
at the 5 & 10 cents store".


NB from memeory.

Shouldn't that be "HB" ?


DG


--
geoff

In message , Anne Chambers
writes

However, in Tonga, if they couldn't treat what ailed you with
paracetamol and/or penicillin, forget it. Towards the end of my time
there, we had no qualified doctor for the whole Ha'apai group, just two
valiant final-year medical students...

So you ended up being unha'apai then ?


--
geoff

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 17:17:58 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote
(in article ):


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 09:01:31 +0100, The Reid wrote
(in article ):

Following up to Andy Hall

I object even more strongly to the government propaganda that it's free
at
the point of delivery and is a good service. It isn't either, and I
don't
appreciate being lied to by suppliers.

why isn't it free at point of delivery (minor prescription
charges aside)?


You tell me. They should either make it free at the point of delivery,
and
genuinely so, or not claim that it is.

I think Mike was saying that it IS free at the point of delivery and
wondered why you were questioning it.






It isn't. Despite qualifying for free prescriptions according to the
current system, I cannot get a prescription for certain supplies that are
recommended by the NHS's own clinical policy organisation, NICE.

That's a simple example. I am sure that you will have read about the debacle
concerning Herceptin.

I could quote series of examples longer than your arm. It is not even close
to being a universal and free service.

It is rather sad that there are still people around with the misconception
that it is. Clearly the NHS marketing machine has done a good job.

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:01:04 +0100, The Reid wrote
(in article ):

Following up to Andy Hall

why isn't it free at point of delivery (minor prescription
charges aside)?


You tell me. They should either make it free at the point of delivery,
and
genuinely so, or not claim that it is.

right, so it is then.


This is ridiculous. It very obviously is not.

How many examples would you like?

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:01:04 +0100, The Reid wrote
(in article ):

Following up to Andy Hall

This inevitably leads to colossal waste and has
done since the inception of it.

heard of economies of scale? There is no "inevitable" correlation
between size and efficiency.


The only aspect where an economy of scale is interesting would be the bulk
purchasing power for drugs etc.

Now, thinks, would that be useful to the NHS?


There is only one useful thing that could be done to the NHS, and that is to
shut it down.

It is not necessary to have over a million people on the payroll to negotiate
a good generic drugs deal with Novartis, Roche or whoever the favourite
supplier is.

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 17:15:54 +0100, Clive George wrote
(in article ):

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

This is the whole point. It isn't necessary to have a state operated
organisation on this scale.

Yebbut commercial organisations are always trying to agglomerate. Remove
govt as the employer, and even if you start with lots of private
organisations/trusts/whatever, they'll all tend to merge.

cheers,
clive


No. Nobody said anything about private and for-profit organisations bing the
only alternative to a state run megalith. There are many other corporate
statuses that could be used for structures for primary and secondary
healthcare.

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 17:32:07 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote
(in article ):


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 09:01:32 +0100, The Reid wrote
(in article ):

Following up to Andy Hall

I am quite sure that I could do a much better job than the government
does.

It wouldn't be that difficult.....

so you think.


All that is required is a simple administration to organise and distribute
funding in the form of vouchers for patients to spend on healthcare with a
provider of their choice.

Why don't you organise it, Andy? You could do that in the morning and give
medical advice and dental treatment in the afternoon.





That would take Superman. I'd be happy with doing the mass sackings of
civil servants. - I'd happily spend several days doing that, from the top
down.

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 17:58:53 +0100, June Hughes wrote
(in article ):

In message , Mary Fisher
writes

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 09:01:32 +0100, The Reid wrote
(in article ):

Following up to Andy Hall

I am quite sure that I could do a much better job than the government
does.

It wouldn't be that difficult.....

so you think.


All that is required is a simple administration to organise and distribute
funding in the form of vouchers for patients to spend on healthcare with a
provider of their choice.

Why don't you organise it, Andy? You could do that in the morning and give
medical advice and dental treatment in the afternoon.

Great minds think alike. I was going to say that too.


On one occasion at an evening cocktail reception, somebody told Oscar Wilde a
joke. He laughed and said that he wished that he had thought of it. One
of his companions said "Don't worry, Oscar. You will"

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:01:04 +0100, The Reid wrote
(in article ):

Following up to Andy Hall

other options can include non-profit foundations, charitable
trusts etc. etc.

like the NHS

Not really. I am talking about things that stand a chance of working.



There is virtually nothing that can be done better in the public sector.

so you assert.


Yes I do. It would be very difficult to amass convincing evidence that in
the field of healthcare delivery, running a megalithic organisation is an
effective solution.

If it were, then we would find the healthcare organisations of each country
of similar population size to the UK and having socialised medicine to have
an organisation of similar size. They don't. Even if you scale to look
proportionately at the healthcare organisations of smaller countries, you
won't find them.

That speaks volumes.

Of course, until people in the UK realise that they are being suckered by the
4th of the three big lies, it won't change.

raden wrote:

In message , Anne Chambers
writes


However, in Tonga, if they couldn't treat what ailed you with
paracetamol and/or penicillin, forget it. Towards the end of my time
there, we had no qualified doctor for the whole Ha'apai group, just
two valiant final-year medical students...

So you ended up being unha'apai then ?


LOL - very good!
Anne
South Australia

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:01:04 +0100, The Reid wrote
(in article ):

Following up to Andy Hall

can you prove its a "total nonsense"?


I don't need to prove it.

you need to prove it, not just assert your political view.


I don't *need* to do anything. It isn't a political view - simply an
observation of a majorly broken organisation that really requires euthanasia.

Once one has an open mind that leaves on one side the concept that the state
needs to operate a megalith to deliver healthcare, then many more things
become possible.

Sadly the reality is that most people are unable to think outside the box.

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:01:04 +0100, The Reid wrote
(in article ):

Following up to Andy Hall

these are the problems of lack of commitment to the NHS, for
years we have wanted low taxes and more low taxes, something has
to give.

It isn't lack of commitment. All that has happened is the throwing of good
money after bad.

nonsense. Thatcher would probably have loved to get rid of it.


It really doesn't matter. There is no point is raiding the museum and
looking at the legacy of the past.

Possibly for a fleeting moment in the 1940s before the NHS was set up and
then immediately bailed out of financial collapse by the Americans, it might
have seemed like a good idea.

It very quickly wasn't a good idea and is now at least 40 years past its
sell-by date.

There is no useful way beyond those basic limitations, and so the kindest
thing really would be to kill it off and look at the whole issue with an open
mind.

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 20:54:20 +0100, Owain wrote
(in article ):

Andy Hall wrote:
So imagine what could be achieved by taking out multiple levels of
government
bureaucracy and firing half a million civil servants.

The social security benefits bill would soar and the private sector
would be inundated dealing with job applications from people incapable
of honest hard work.

Owain


There is that.

Hopefully, the private sector would be able to defend itself from this. It
would probably still be more cost effective to pick up the social security
bill.

I've always had a simple principle when hiring people. It is a mistake to
hire the wrong person. It is an even bigger mistake to keep them.

This is simply a larger example of that issue. In other words, at a certain
point it makes more sense to pay the money and fix the problem.

Following up to Ophelia

I don't do gas DIY! Electric, yes, all done before the new reg,
of course.

Mike, as any fule no you are not *allowed* to do d-i-y with gas!

As I am sure *you* knew!

cancels personal DIY pipeline to Russia.
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

Following up to raden

the spelcheck helps, but the gas fitter has now goneth.....with
£600.

Ah well ...

if you spent more time in uk.d-i-y instead of F+D.misc

you would have told me how to solder up my cracked heat
exchanger, no doubt.
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

Following up to graham

He was still thinking of the barmaid when he wrote that:-)

Yes, and DIY. :-
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

In message , Andy Hall
writes

It is rather sad that there are still people around with the misconception
that it is. Clearly the NHS marketing machine has done a good job.


Instead of wasting your time blathering about it here, why not do
something positive? Get off your backside and on your bike and start
doing something about it instead of giving earache to those who are
unable to alter things.
--
June Hughes

In message , Andy Hall
writes
On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:01:04 +0100, The Reid wrote
(in article ):

Following up to Andy Hall

can you prove its a "total nonsense"?


I don't need to prove it.

you need to prove it, not just assert your political view.


I don't *need* to do anything. It isn't a political view - simply an
observation of a majorly broken organisation that really requires euthanasia.

Once one has an open mind that leaves on one side the concept that the state
needs to operate a megalith to deliver healthcare, then many more things
become possible.

Sadly the reality is that most people are unable to think outside the box.


Why not just get on and do something about it if you feel so strongly,
instead of winding up everyone here? Perhaps then, we will end up with
a better NHS and you will be a hero of the people.
--
June Hughes

In message , Andy Hall
writes
On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 17:32:07 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote
(in article ):


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 09:01:32 +0100, The Reid wrote
(in article ):

Following up to Andy Hall

I am quite sure that I could do a much better job than the government
does.

It wouldn't be that difficult.....

so you think.


All that is required is a simple administration to organise and distribute
funding in the form of vouchers for patients to spend on healthcare with a
provider of their choice.

Why don't you organise it, Andy? You could do that in the morning and give
medical advice and dental treatment in the afternoon.





That would take Superman. I'd be happy with doing the mass sackings of
civil servants. - I'd happily spend several days doing that, from the top
down.


A few days? I think a lot more than that is required.
--
June Hughes

In message , Andy Hall
writes

Of course, until people in the UK realise that they are being suckered by the
4th of the three big lies, it won't change.


Get yourself a couple of sandwich boards and parade up and down Oxford
Street spreading the word. That may achieve something. Of course, it
is easier just to sit on your backside at your computer and spout on
Usenet but you could be far more effective than that, couldn't you?
--
June Hughes

Following up to Andy Hall

This is ridiculous

true.
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

Following up to Andy Hall

It is not even close
to being a universal and free service.

"not even close" . The service is blindingly obviously universal
and free at point of delivery, you just want to dredge up any odd
exception that would "prove" otherwise to bolster your case, even
Thatcher didnt say it wasnt free at point of delivery. You say
its "ridiculous" that its FAPOD, most would say that claim just
makes you look ridiculous.

You argue anything big cant work, big business thinks otherwise,
you even begrudge acknowledging economies of scale work in its
favour and talk of a monolith as if the trusts dont exist and the
whole thing is directly controlled by a man in a pin striped suit
sitting in Whitehall. Just replace it with some vouchers, yeah
simple.
You would do better to take a less extreme position.
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

Following up to Andy Hall

It isn't lack of commitment. All that has happened is the throwing of good
money after bad.

nonsense. Thatcher would probably have loved to get rid of it.


It really doesn't matter.

so when you realise you are wrong, "it doesn't matter". It
"doesn't matter" that most of the problems were caused by a long
period of underfunding and undermining of moral, all that matters
is your final solution. Basically you just hate the public sector
and don't believe it can do anything right. With the amateur
civil service I tend to agree, with the rest, including the NHS
in that, I dont.
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

"June Hughes" wrote in message
...
In message , Andy Hall
writes

Of course, until people in the UK realise that they are being suckered by
the
4th of the three big lies, it won't change.


Get yourself a couple of sandwich boards and parade up and down Oxford
Street spreading the word. That may achieve something. Of course, it is
easier just to sit on your backside at your computer and spout on Usenet
but you could be far more effective than that, couldn't you?
--
June Hughes


Oh, June, that's not fair! I don't think you realise that this chap isn't
lazing about at home at his pc, he's jetting all round the world with his
laptop, being very busy. Probably solving other, even worse, problems!

Can't cope with keeping a couple of chickens for more than a day or two
though ...

Mary

In message , Mary Fisher
writes

"June Hughes" wrote in message
...
In message , Andy Hall
writes

Of course, until people in the UK realise that they are being suckered by
the
4th of the three big lies, it won't change.


Get yourself a couple of sandwich boards and parade up and down Oxford
Street spreading the word. That may achieve something. Of course, it is
easier just to sit on your backside at your computer and spout on Usenet
but you could be far more effective than that, couldn't you?
--
June Hughes


Oh, June, that's not fair! I don't think you realise that this chap isn't
lazing about at home at his pc, he's jetting all round the world with his
laptop, being very busy. Probably solving other, even worse, problems!

Can't cope with keeping a couple of chickens for more than a day or two
though ...

I shall refrain from saying 'Eggsactly'.
--
June Hughes

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 08:12:18 +0100, June Hughes
wrote:

I don't *need* to do anything. It isn't a political view - simply an
observation of a majorly broken organisation that really requires euthanasia.

Correct, once a system has gone rotten from the roots to the core it
is better to start again from the beginning. Plant a new seed.


Once one has an open mind that leaves on one side the concept that the state
needs to operate a megalith to deliver healthcare, then many more things
become possible.

By way of an example the State of Jersey provides a health care system
independant of the NHS. It is not free, people just pay for it when
they use it. If they can pay 55 quid for a call out to fix their
washing machine they can pay 15 quid for an X-ray.

They even manage to provide a kidney dialysis service free of charge
for tourists visiting the island.


Sadly the reality is that most people are unable to think outside the box.


Why not just get on and do something about it if you feel so strongly,
instead of winding up everyone here? Perhaps then, we will end up with
a better NHS and you will be a hero of the people.

When we set up our mailing list at work there were more than 500
hospitals in England with more than 500 beds. ISTM that in an
organisation that big contributing to a discussion forum such as this
is as good a start as any that an individual can make towards getting
the system changed.

DG

"Derek ^" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 08:12:18 +0100, June Hughes

By way of an example the State of Jersey provides a health care system
independant of the NHS. It is not free, people just pay for it when
they use it. If they can pay 55 quid for a call out to fix their
washing machine they can pay 15 quid for an X-ray.

And if they can't afford to call out the washing machine engineer?

And what about subsequent treatment for what the x-ray shows?

£55 is not the full cost of the x-ray, I suspect. If it is it must be one of
the cheapest parts of medical needs.

"Owain" wrote in message
...

if you spent more time in uk.d-i-y instead of F+D.misc
you would have told me how to solder up my cracked heat
exchanger, no doubt.

car body filler innit

Our car body is a heat exchanger at the moment. It exchanges its heat to us.

We're just not using it, if we can't walk or go on the scooter we do
without.

Mary

Owain

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 08:12:18 +0100, June Hughes wrote
(in article ):

In message , Andy Hall
writes
On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:01:04 +0100, The Reid wrote
(in article ):

Following up to Andy Hall

can you prove its a "total nonsense"?


I don't need to prove it.

you need to prove it, not just assert your political view.


I don't *need* to do anything. It isn't a political view - simply an
observation of a majorly broken organisation that really requires
euthanasia.

Once one has an open mind that leaves on one side the concept that the state
needs to operate a megalith to deliver healthcare, then many more things
become possible.

Sadly the reality is that most people are unable to think outside the box.


Why not just get on and do something about it if you feel so strongly,
instead of winding up everyone here? Perhaps then, we will end up with
a better NHS and you will be a hero of the people.


If I were to do it, we wouldn't have an NHS. Unfortunately, contrary to
their own best interests, most people seem wedded to the idea that this is
the only way to deliver healthcare in a civilised society and are willing to
accept third rate service because they think it's free.

If I thought that the British population were ready for a completely new
concept, then I would seriously give it a go.

Following up to June Hughes

Instead of wasting your time blathering about it here, why not do
something positive? Get off your backside and on your bike and start
doing something about it instead of giving earache to those who are
unable to alter things.

you have a point, its too hot for political cobblers, having
spent the morning shoveling muck in the heat and with the
prospect of chiseling up floor tiles pm lets discuss something
nice.........thinks... ............did I mention the barmaid at
the "Pigs Nose" by any chance?
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 08:10:32 +0100, June Hughes wrote
(in article ):

In message , Andy Hall
writes

It is rather sad that there are still people around with the misconception
that it is. Clearly the NHS marketing machine has done a good job.


Instead of wasting your time blathering about it here, why not do
something positive? Get off your backside and on your bike and start
doing something about it instead of giving earache to those who are
unable to alter things.


Nobody requires you to read the articles that I write.

As I already explained to you, this is something that I would take on if
there were the public will to throw the whole thing away and start again.

Until the mentality moves away from using band Aids to cure cancer, there is
no point in spending the effort on it.

However, if people reading this are able and willing to think outside the
box, they may wish to write to their MP.

In message , Andy Hall
writes
On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 08:12:18 +0100, June Hughes wrote
(in article ):


Why not just get on and do something about it if you feel so strongly,
instead of winding up everyone here? Perhaps then, we will end up with
a better NHS and you will be a hero of the people.


If I were to do it, we wouldn't have an NHS. Unfortunately, contrary to
their own best interests, most people seem wedded to the idea that this is
the only way to deliver healthcare in a civilised society and are willing to
accept third rate service because they think it's free.

That is a load of old bull****, as I suspect you know.
If I thought that the British population were ready for a completely new
concept, then I would seriously give it a go.


Excuses, excuses.
--
June Hughes

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 08:24:02 +0100, The Reid wrote
(in article ):

Following up to Andy Hall

It is not even close
to being a universal and free service.

"not even close" . The service is blindingly obviously universal
and free at point of delivery, you just want to dredge up any odd
exception that would "prove" otherwise to bolster your case, even
Thatcher didnt say it wasnt free at point of delivery. You say
its "ridiculous" that its FAPOD, most would say that claim just
makes you look ridiculous.

It isn't exception cases.

I'll give you four simple examples.

- Cases where a branded, but more expensive drug does a better job than a
generic because of the filler material used and the effect that that has

- Blood glucose test strips for diabetics.

- Nasal CPAP equipment for sleep apnoea patients

- Herceptin for cancer patients

There are clinical justifications for all of these things and lack of prompt
treatment and use can be life threatening.

However, they are not freely and prompt;y available through the NHS. Either
there are long delays or they are not available at all. Either way the
patient pays if they don't have private insurance or goes without.

I would not describe this as a service which is free at the point of
delivery.






You argue anything big cant work, big business thinks otherwise,
you even begrudge acknowledging economies of scale work in its
favour and talk of a monolith as if the trusts dont exist and the
whole thing is directly controlled by a man in a pin striped suit
sitting in Whitehall. Just replace it with some vouchers, yeah
simple.
You would do better to take a less extreme position.


No I wouldn't. Economies of scale are relevant to purchasing, certain
kinds of manufacturing and production.
They are not relevant to healthcare in terms of delivery and other countries
take that view.

Trusts would be relevant if they operated totally outside of government
intervention and control

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 08:13:00 +0100, June Hughes wrote
(in article ):

In message , Andy Hall
writes
On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 17:32:07 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote
(in article ):


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 09:01:32 +0100, The Reid wrote
(in article ):

Following up to Andy Hall

I am quite sure that I could do a much better job than the government
does.

It wouldn't be that difficult.....

so you think.


All that is required is a simple administration to organise and distribute
funding in the form of vouchers for patients to spend on healthcare with a
provider of their choice.

Why don't you organise it, Andy? You could do that in the morning and give
medical advice and dental treatment in the afternoon.





That would take Superman. I'd be happy with doing the mass sackings of
civil servants. - I'd happily spend several days doing that, from the top
down.


A few days? I think a lot more than that is required.


You haven't seen me firing people.....

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 08:22:20 +0100, June Hughes wrote
(in article ):

In message , Andy Hall
writes

Of course, until people in the UK realise that they are being suckered by
the
4th of the three big lies, it won't change.


Get yourself a couple of sandwich boards and parade up and down Oxford
Street spreading the word. That may achieve something. Of course, it
is easier just to sit on your backside at your computer and spout on
Usenet but you could be far more effective than that, couldn't you?


That's the old technology way of doing things....

Actually, I seldom sit on my backside in front of my computer. Normally it
is sitting on my knees and I am travelling around.

Following up to Andy Hall

It isn't exception cases.

I'll give you four simple examples.

of exceptional cases.
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

It isn't exception cases.

I'll give you four simple examples.
...
- Blood glucose test strips for diabetics.
...
There are clinical justifications for all of these things and lack of
prompt
treatment and use can be life threatening.

However, they are not freely and prompt;y available through the NHS.
Either
there are long delays or they are not available at all. Either way the
patient pays if they don't have private insurance or goes without.

IME freely and promptly available. I've never had a problem getting them -
and I test quite a lot.

Type 2s may have to pay a prescription charge, and for their other meds.
Annual prepayment would seem to cover that.

cheers,
clive