"The Reid" wrote in message
...
Following up to Mary Fisher

cant say I'm keen, but on fdm we tend to drift around from food
to food.

Oh - I wondered what you were doing in uk.d-i-y!

Hello Mary, hows things?

Things is as always - interesting. A mixed bag but I live yet.

I'm always on DIY but I lurk until I
have a problem, which might be today as the gas fitter cometh.

How can you type so well with crossed fingers?

Mary

"The Reid" wrote in message
...
Following up to Andy Hall

I object even more strongly to the government propaganda that it's free at
the point of delivery and is a good service. It isn't either, and I don't
appreciate being lied to by suppliers.

why isn't it free at point of delivery (minor prescription
charges aside)?

Andy doesn't answer simple questions.

Mary

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

....

For example, the nonsense that I had from the GP surgery after a
comprehensive set of blood tests was a note of "tell patient OK" from the
doctor.

Sounds good to me.

But I thought you had private medicine ...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 21:14:42 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote
(in article ):


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

However, I don't want to pay taxes to fund a megalith of bureaucracy
that
is
the 3rd largest employer in the world. That makes no sense at all.

Would you if it were the fouth?

Or the twenty fourth?

Or the seventy sixth?

Where do you draw the line?


At the point where it didn't even figure in the stats and there was no
government involvement whatsoever.

So you want the smallest possible employer and no government.

A witch doctor sounds likely.

Following up to Mary Fisher

I'm always on DIY but I lurk until I
have a problem, which might be today as the gas fitter cometh.

How can you type so well with crossed fingers?

the spelcheck helps, but the gas fitter has now goneth.....with
£600.
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

Umbrian wrote:



Of all the schemes, I look at Australia's national insurance as
attractive.

It's not bad at all, but people still complain. My husband died two
years ago of motor neurone disease - we had incredible support from
everyone connected to the Health system from the moment he was diagnosed
and it was virtually free - not all our travelling expenses to Adelaide
for sleep clinics, breathing clinics, dieticians etc were met, but 90%
were. OTs,physiotherapy, domicilliary and palliative care were
completely free from the regional service, alterations to the house to
cope with wheelchair etc were at cost, and it all happened as and when
we needed it - this is more than you wanted to know, probably We did
not have private health insurance as it is prohibitively expensive on a
fixed income - but the care he received was just the same as if we had.
Waiting lists for elective surgery in capital cities, I understand,
are long; in the country, they're not too bad.

However, in Tonga, if they couldn't treat what ailed you with
paracetamol and/or penicillin, forget it. Towards the end of my time
there, we had no qualified doctor for the whole Ha'apai group, just two
valiant final-year medical students...

Anne
South Australia

"The Reid" wrote in message
...
Following up to Mary Fisher

I'm always on DIY but I lurk until I
have a problem, which might be today as the gas fitter cometh.

How can you type so well with crossed fingers?

the spelcheck helps, but the gas fitter has now goneth.....with
£600.

Hmm. Heard of d-i-y?

:-)

Mary

Mary Fisher wrote:

"The Reid" wrote in message
...

Following up to Mary Fisher


I'm always on DIY but I lurk until I
have a problem, which might be today as the gas fitter cometh.

How can you type so well with crossed fingers?

the spelcheck helps, but the gas fitter has now goneth.....with
£600.


Hmm. Heard of d-i-y?

:-)

Mary


KABOOM !!!
Anne
South Australia

"Anne Chambers" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:

"The Reid" wrote in message
...

Following up to Mary Fisher


I'm always on DIY but I lurk until I
have a problem, which might be today as the gas fitter cometh.

How can you type so well with crossed fingers?

the spelcheck helps, but the gas fitter has now goneth.....with
£600.


Hmm. Heard of d-i-y?

:-)

Mary


KABOOM !!!
Anne
South Australia

That's a L-O-N-G way to be blown :-)

Mary

"Anne Chambers" wrote in message
...
Umbrian wrote:



Of all the schemes, I look at Australia's national insurance as
attractive.

It's not bad at all, but people still complain.

Anne , you've hit the nail on the head.

Some people will complain about anything. They expect perfection (yet make
excuses for their own imperfections). Life isn't perfect but whinging about
it doesn't make it better :-)

My husband died two years ago of motor neurone disease - we had incredible
support from everyone connected to the Health system from the moment he
was diagnosed and it was virtually free - not all our travelling expenses
to Adelaide for sleep clinics, breathing clinics, dieticians etc were met,
but 90% were. OTs,physiotherapy, domicilliary and palliative care were
completely free from the regional service, alterations to the house to
cope with wheelchair etc were at cost, and it all happened as and when we
needed it - this is more than you wanted to know, probably

This is what would typiclaly happen in UK.

We did not have private health insurance as it is prohibitively expensive
on a fixed income - but the care he received was just the same as if we
had. Waiting lists for elective surgery in capital cities, I understand,
are long; in the country, they're not too bad.

However, in Tonga, if they couldn't treat what ailed you with paracetamol
and/or penicillin, forget it. Towards the end of my time there, we had no
qualified doctor for the whole Ha'apai group, just two valiant final-year
medical students...

As I said, life isn't perfect.

I'm glad that you and your husband had good care, there might come a time
when everyone can - but there will still be those who think it should be
better.

Thanks for your story,

Mary

Anne
South Australia

Following up to Mary Fisher

the spelcheck helps, but the gas fitter has now goneth.....with
£600.

Hmm. Heard of d-i-y?

I don't do gas DIY! Electric, yes, all done before the new reg,
of course.
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

Anne Chambers wrote:
Umbrian wrote:



Of all the schemes, I look at Australia's national insurance as
attractive.

It's not bad at all, but people still complain. My husband died two
years ago of motor neurone disease - we had incredible support from
everyone connected to the Health system from the moment he was diagnosed
and it was virtually free
snipped sad sad story


Anne
South Australia

I am so sorry to hear of your loss and relieved to hear that the
experience was so well ameliorated by your health system.
I got the general idea that 1) it was illegal to exclude anybody, and
work was not the only road, but also social clubs, etc. and 2) the cost
was leveled by using the entire population as a risk base, rather than
in the USA where insurance companies cherry pick the low risk people
and refuse to accept anybody who has been sick.
Insurance being tied to jobs alone is cruel. In downturns millions are
uncovered at a low time in their life when they are particularly
vulnerable to illness. I am deeply shamed by this aspect of my home
country.
At the height of my career as an independent professional, I paid about
10% of my income for insurance and still had to pay 20% co-payments for
care and got no drug coverage. I was not covered at all for possible
recurrence of a cancer I had had as a youth. At the same time I was
paying more per month for social security pension payments than I now
receive as an early retiree. Those two items came to about 30% of my
salary.

"The Reid" wrote in message
...
Following up to Mary Fisher

the spelcheck helps, but the gas fitter has now goneth.....with
£600.

Hmm. Heard of d-i-y?

I don't do gas DIY! Electric, yes, all done before the new reg,
of course.

Of course :-)

Mary

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 09:01:31 +0100, The Reid
had this to say:

Following up to Mary Fisher

cant say I'm keen, but on fdm we tend to drift around from food
to food.

Oh - I wondered what you were doing in uk.d-i-y!

Hello Mary, hows things? I'm always on DIY but I lurk until I
have a problem, which might be today as the gas fitter cometh.

F&S
I thought the gas man was supposed to come on a Monday.
/F&S
--
Frank Erskine

Following up to Frank Erskine

I thought the gas man was supposed to come on a Monday.

you always worry, don't you, but it proved plain sailing.
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 08:00:00 +0100, June Hughes wrote
(in article ):

In message , Andy Hall
writes
snip

The icing on the cake is being told that I should be grateful for it. What
kind of nonsense is that?


Who has told you that?


The organisation itself.

At one point they even had a radio advertising campaign to attempt to recruit
nurses back who had left to look after kids etc.
There were voiceovers from "nurses" who had allegedly felt it their duty to
return because the NHS had looked after their great aunt Nellie or something
like that.

Utter and complete bull**** and representative of an organisation that
believes that it is doing its customers a favour.

I know a radiographer who worked for many years in NHS hospitals and really
believed in the system. Eventually the lack of professionalism, poor
facilities, filth in places where there shouldn't be and general disinterest
from colleagues led her to leave to go and work for one of the local private
hospitals. I happened to see her recently for an Xray and had the
opportunity to talk to her for a while. She has never been happier. The
work environment is better, the attitude of staff professional etc. It
certainly wasn't about money - she makes a little more but not a lot.

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 09:01:31 +0100, The Reid wrote
(in article ):

Following up to Andy Hall

I object even more strongly to the government propaganda that it's free at
the point of delivery and is a good service. It isn't either, and I don't
appreciate being lied to by suppliers.

why isn't it free at point of delivery (minor prescription
charges aside)?


You tell me. They should either make it free at the point of delivery, and
genuinely so, or not claim that it is.

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 09:01:31 +0100, The Reid wrote
(in article ):

Following up to Andy Hall

This inevitably leads to colossal waste and has
done since the inception of it.

heard of economies of scale? There is no "inevitable" correlation
between size and efficiency.


The only aspect where an economy of scale is interesting would be the bulk
purchasing power for drugs etc. However, that requires a small purchasing
organisation, not a cast of millions to do it.

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 08:04:13 +0100, June Hughes wrote
(in article ):

In message , Andy Hall
writes
On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 00:11:40 +0100, June Hughes wrote
(in article ):

In message , Andy Hall
writes
On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 21:14:42 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote
(in article ):


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

However, I don't want to pay taxes to fund a megalith of bureaucracy
that
is
the 3rd largest employer in the world. That makes no sense at all.

Would you if it were the fouth?

Or the twenty fourth?

Or the seventy sixth?

Where do you draw the line?


At the point where it didn't even figure in the stats and there was no
government involvement whatsoever.


So who do you suggest we pay our NICS to?


You can send them to me June.

Very glib.



This is the whole point. It isn't necessary to have a state operated
organisation on this scale.

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 09:01:32 +0100, The Reid wrote
(in article ):

Following up to Andy Hall

I am quite sure that I could do a much better job than the government does.

It wouldn't be that difficult.....

so you think.


All that is required is a simple administration to organise and distribute
funding in the form of vouchers for patients to spend on healthcare with a
provider of their choice.

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 10:27:50 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote
(in article ):


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 21:14:42 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote
(in article ):


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

However, I don't want to pay taxes to fund a megalith of bureaucracy
that
is
the 3rd largest employer in the world. That makes no sense at all.

Would you if it were the fouth?

Or the twenty fourth?

Or the seventy sixth?

Where do you draw the line?


At the point where it didn't even figure in the stats and there was no
government involvement whatsoever.

So you want the smallest possible employer and no government.

A witch doctor sounds likely.


Just no government involvement in service delivery. It isn't necessary and
adds no value.

Delivery of healthcare can be through for-profit organisations,
not-for-profit foundations, etc. etc. There are a myriad of ways to do
that which do not need to involve government.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

This is the whole point. It isn't necessary to have a state operated
organisation on this scale.

Yebbut commercial organisations are always trying to agglomerate. Remove
govt as the employer, and even if you start with lots of private
organisations/trusts/whatever, they'll all tend to merge.

cheers,
clive

"The Reid" wrote in message
...
Following up to Frank Erskine

I thought the gas man was supposed to come on a Monday.

you always worry, don't you, but it proved plain sailing.

A gas powered boat!

There's posh.

Mary

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 09:01:32 +0100, The Reid wrote
(in article ):

Following up to Clive George

Judging by the USAian experience, private enterprise can't either.

it can, but its expensive there. The insurance companies are not
going broke! Neither are the companies that deliver other
privatised services here.


So imagine what could be achieved by taking out multiple levels of government
bureaucracy and firing half a million civil servants.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 09:01:31 +0100, The Reid wrote
(in article ):

Following up to Andy Hall

I object even more strongly to the government propaganda that it's free
at
the point of delivery and is a good service. It isn't either, and I
don't
appreciate being lied to by suppliers.

why isn't it free at point of delivery (minor prescription
charges aside)?


You tell me. They should either make it free at the point of delivery,
and
genuinely so, or not claim that it is.

I think Mike was saying that it IS free at the point of delivery and
wondered why you were questioning it.

"Owain" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:
At the point where it didn't even figure in the stats and there was no
government involvement whatsoever.
So you want the smallest possible employer and no government.
A witch doctor sounds likely.

Under the doctrine of patient choice, wasting money, and pandering to
superstitionists, I daresay that'll be offered by the NHS quite soon now.
They already offer homeopathy.

Well, some GPs have decided to refer patients to homoeopathists, it's not
part of the general service.

Pity though ...

lol - I forecast another drift!

Mary

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 09:01:32 +0100, The Reid wrote
(in article ):

Following up to Andy Hall

Removal of the government middle man would
mean that more of that would arrive at the point of delivery.

to be replaced by the business middle man in a nice suit creaming
off the money, like the privatised water companies. Some things
are done better by the public sector.


You are jumping to an incorrect conclusion.

Nobody said that removal of public sector *delivery* automatically leads to a
for-profit arrangement. That can be one option for those who wish to
choose it. other options can include non-profit foundations, charitable
trusts etc. etc.

There is virtually nothing that can be done better in the public sector.
healthcare delivery is a primary example of something in which the public
sector, in the sense of central administration, should have no involvement.

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 09:01:31 +0100, The Reid wrote
(in article ):

Following up to Andy Hall

the budget for this thing is absolutely colossal. Do you realise that
they
are the third largest employer in the world. A total nonsense.

Can you prove that?

Yes. They even say it themselves and are actually *proud* of it as though
it's some measure of excellence and investment; when really it's a measure
of
bureaucracy and incompetence.

can you prove its a "total nonsense"?


I don't need to prove it. Do you really think that an organisation of this
scale can do a proper job? It would be the first time in history if so

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 09:43:57 +0100, The Reid wrote
(in article ):

Following up to Ophelia

After all, we are still paying our dues to the NHS so we are
paying twice for the privelage.

these are the problems of lack of commitment to the NHS, for
years we have wanted low taxes and more low taxes, something has
to give.

It isn't lack of commitment. All that has happened is the throwing of good
money after bad.


It was NHS waiting lists.

So the figures on those have been rigged by bureaucratic measures.


We are now putting a lot more
money in, if we scrapped the internal market, brought in to keep
the right wing happy, we cut cut out a lot of pointless
administration and management. (I dont need to know how much your
ops cost if I dont regard it as an option not to do them).

The organisation as a whole should have been scrapped. Establishing an
internal market was way too little. Incompetence and waste should have
been exposed and people given the sack.

Until that is done, there is little hope, and people are just kidding
themselves if they think it can improve.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 09:01:32 +0100, The Reid wrote
(in article ):

Following up to Andy Hall

I am quite sure that I could do a much better job than the government
does.

It wouldn't be that difficult.....

so you think.


All that is required is a simple administration to organise and distribute
funding in the form of vouchers for patients to spend on healthcare with a
provider of their choice.

Why don't you organise it, Andy? You could do that in the morning and give
medical advice and dental treatment in the afternoon.

In message , Mary Fisher
writes

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 09:01:32 +0100, The Reid wrote
(in article ):

Following up to Andy Hall

I am quite sure that I could do a much better job than the government
does.

It wouldn't be that difficult.....

so you think.


All that is required is a simple administration to organise and distribute
funding in the form of vouchers for patients to spend on healthcare with a
provider of their choice.

Why don't you organise it, Andy? You could do that in the morning and give
medical advice and dental treatment in the afternoon.

Great minds think alike. I was going to say that too.
--
June Hughes

Following up to Andy Hall

This inevitably leads to colossal waste and has
done since the inception of it.

heard of economies of scale? There is no "inevitable" correlation
between size and efficiency.


The only aspect where an economy of scale is interesting would be the bulk
purchasing power for drugs etc.

Now, thinks, would that be useful to the NHS?
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

Following up to Andy Hall

other options can include non-profit foundations, charitable
trusts etc. etc.

like the NHS

There is virtually nothing that can be done better in the public sector.

so you assert.
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

Following up to Andy Hall

why isn't it free at point of delivery (minor prescription
charges aside)?


You tell me. They should either make it free at the point of delivery, and
genuinely so, or not claim that it is.

right, so it is then.
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

Following up to Andy Hall

can you prove its a "total nonsense"?


I don't need to prove it.

you need to prove it, not just assert your political view.
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

Following up to Andy Hall

these are the problems of lack of commitment to the NHS, for
years we have wanted low taxes and more low taxes, something has
to give.

It isn't lack of commitment. All that has happened is the throwing of good
money after bad.

nonsense. Thatcher would probably have loved to get rid of it.
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" -- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" -- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 18:01:04 +0100, The Reid
wrote:

Following up to Andy Hall

This inevitably leads to colossal waste and has
done since the inception of it.

heard of economies of scale? There is no "inevitable" correlation
between size and efficiency.


The only aspect where an economy of scale is interesting would be the bulk
purchasing power for drugs etc.

Now, thinks, would that be useful to the NHS?

Nope.

With reference to Robert Townshends book "Up the Organisation"

AAMOF ctually referring to the joint use public purchasing schemes in
the US, but the NHS is certainly no better.

" For all that They actually *do* pay more for a pencil than you do
at the 5 & 10 cents store". NB from memeory.

DG

The Reid wrote:
Following up to Mary Fisher

the spelcheck helps, but the gas fitter has now goneth.....with
£600.

Hmm. Heard of d-i-y?

I don't do gas DIY! Electric, yes, all done before the new reg,
of course.

Mike, as any fule no you are not *allowed* to do d-i-y with gas!

As I am sure *you* knew!

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...

"Owain" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher wrote:
At the point where it didn't even figure in the stats and there was no
government involvement whatsoever.
So you want the smallest possible employer and no government.
A witch doctor sounds likely.

Under the doctrine of patient choice, wasting money, and pandering to
superstitionists, I daresay that'll be offered by the NHS quite soon now.
They already offer homeopathy.

Well, some GPs have decided to refer patients to homoeopathists, it's not
part of the general service.

Pity though ...

lol - I forecast another drift!

I'm tempted! I'm tempted!:-)
After all, homeopathy is the ultimate in quack medicine! There! I('ve said
it!:-)
Graham

"Ophelia" wrote in message
...
The Reid wrote:
Following up to Mary Fisher

the spelcheck helps, but the gas fitter has now goneth.....with
£600.

Hmm. Heard of d-i-y?

I don't do gas DIY! Electric, yes, all done before the new reg,
of course.

Mike, as any fule no you are not *allowed* to do d-i-y with gas!

As I am sure *you* knew!

He was still thinking of the barmaid when he wrote that:-)
Graham