Hi All

I planning to sell my house and buy two smaller ones, renovate them and
sell on at a profit.

I imaging that rewiring, new heating system, kitchen and bathroom will
be required but not any major structural work.

I would like to do all of the work myself but am not au fait with the
subtleties of the building regualtions to know what problems I'm likely
to encounter.

Any advice gratefully received.



Nick Brooks

Nicknoxx typed:

Hi All

I planning to sell my house and buy two smaller ones, renovate them
and sell on at a profit.

I imaging that rewiring, new heating system, kitchen and bathroom will
be required but not any major structural work.

I would like to do all of the work myself but am not au fait with the
subtleties of the building regualtions to know what problems I'm
likely to encounter.

Any advice gratefully received.



Judging from your CV.....
a) Ring Sarah Beeny
b) Get a job in I.T.

-

Any advice gratefully received
A few years ago, lots of propery development was cushioned by the
rising market.
Now, it takes more thought and research to make a decent profit. If you
can take the gamble,
bigger developments make more profit. And check out the ceiling price
for the road.

Mark wrote:
Nicknoxx typed:


Hi All

I planning to sell my house and buy two smaller ones, renovate them
and sell on at a profit.

I imaging that rewiring, new heating system, kitchen and bathroom will
be required but not any major structural work.

I would like to do all of the work myself but am not au fait with the
subtleties of the building regualtions to know what problems I'm
likely to encounter.

Any advice gratefully received.




Judging from your CV.....

I don't mention on my CV that I've spent the last five years doing up
three cottages, have installed one heating system including underfloor
heating, done a loft conversion and installed three bathrooms.

a) Ring Sarah Beeny

Can I have her number please

b) Get a job in I.T.

Got one - sort of - bored


-




--
Nick Brooks

wrote:
Any advice gratefully received

A few years ago, lots of propery development was cushioned by the
rising market.
Now, it takes more thought and research to make a decent profit. If you
can take the gamble,
bigger developments make more profit. And check out the ceiling price
for the road.

Are you saying that the percentages are bigger on larger developments or
just the total returns?

--
Nick Brooks

Nicknoxx wrote:
Mark wrote:
Nicknoxx typed:


Hi All

I planning to sell my house and buy two smaller ones, renovate them
and sell on at a profit.

I imaging that rewiring, new heating system, kitchen and bathroom will
be required but not any major structural work.

I would like to do all of the work myself but am not au fait with the
subtleties of the building regualtions to know what problems I'm
likely to encounter.

Any advice gratefully received.




Judging from your CV.....

I don't mention on my CV that I've spent the last five years doing up
three cottages, have installed one heating system including underfloor
heating, done a loft conversion and installed three bathrooms.


And yet you say you are not au fait with the subtleties of the building
regs? Did you get approval for the loft conversion? Was all the waste
plumbing in the bathrooms compliant?

MBQ

Nicknoxx wrote:

Hi All

I planning to sell my house and buy two smaller ones, renovate them and
sell on at a profit.

I imaging that rewiring, new heating system, kitchen and bathroom will
be required but not any major structural work.

I would like to do all of the work myself but am not au fait with the
subtleties of the building regualtions to know what problems I'm likely
to encounter.

Any advice gratefully received.


Nick Brooks


Good luck, you'll need it. You need to know about BR etc, and be able
to answer lots of remaining on the job questions rapidly.

You also need enough experience on projects to be able to be realistic
about what is and isnt needed, what it'll cost and how long it'll take.
You also need a basic understanding of the market youre dealing with.
Without all this info it'll take several times as long, your sale price
increase will have all been eaten by works costs, you'll have had to do
several things twice, your overall clever plan will have been shattered
by BR, and you'll crawl out covering your spend and wishing you'd sat
behind a desk for 6 months instead, making a profit.

Maybe you've been watching TV where everyone makes lotsa bucks fast.
Ask yourself why thats what they show, and how its achieved.

Money isnt that easy, doesnt grow on trees. You need plenty of
knowledge and skills. In a rising fast moving market you could make
something anyway, otherwise not. I'd consider a job first.


NT

Are you saying that the percentages are bigger on larger developments or
just the total returns?
Percentages can be bigger, especially if you do the work yourself.
For a simple example, you build an extension bigger in volume, you
don't have the
equivalent increase in wall area.
And there is more scope for making the place look luxurious but with a
judicious mix of posh and cheap.
Also, it's like doing several smaller houses at the same time, but less
effort.
However, things can conspire to make what I've just said utterly wrong
!
Simon.

wrote:

I don't mention on my CV that I've spent the last five years doing up
three cottages, have installed one heating system including underfloor
heating, done a loft conversion and installed three bathrooms.



And yet you say you are not au fait with the subtleties of the building
regs? Did you get approval for the loft conversion? Was all the waste
plumbing in the bathrooms compliant?

MBQ

Yes we got building regs approval for the work that HAD to have building
regs approval, and as far as I know all the work met the relevant
requirements. However when we did the work we were planning to stay in
the last house for a very long time and weren't so concerned with
meeting the regs as long as we were happy with the standard.

However, entering into property development as a business obviously
requires doing things properly and I am not fully up to speed with Part
P and it's implications.

For example, to what extend can one "self certify" plumbing and
electrical work?



--
Nick Brooks

wrote in message
oups.com...
Nicknoxx wrote:

Hi All

I planning to sell my house and buy two smaller ones, renovate them and
sell on at a profit.

I imaging that rewiring, new heating system, kitchen and bathroom will
be required but not any major structural work.

I would like to do all of the work myself but am not au fait with the
subtleties of the building regualtions to know what problems I'm likely
to encounter.

Any advice gratefully received.


Nick Brooks


Good luck, you'll need it. You need to know about BR etc, and be able
to answer lots of remaining on the job questions rapidly.

You also need enough experience on projects to be able to be realistic
about what is and isnt needed, what it'll cost and how long it'll take.
You also need a basic understanding of the market youre dealing with.
Without all this info it'll take several times as long, your sale price
increase will have all been eaten by works costs, you'll have had to do
several things twice, your overall clever plan will have been shattered
by BR, and you'll crawl out covering your spend and wishing you'd sat
behind a desk for 6 months instead, making a profit.

Maybe you've been watching TV where everyone makes lotsa bucks fast.
Ask yourself why thats what they show, and how its achieved.

Money isnt that easy, doesnt grow on trees. You need plenty of
knowledge and skills. In a rising fast moving market you could make
something anyway, otherwise not. I'd consider a job first.

Do a Google on this group by timegoesby. He does this and listed the points
to watch out for. It appears that just fitting in medium priced fittings
and not overdoing it, with a good state of decoration is all that is needed.
A sense of space is needed too. And make the front door look good, the
first impressions, Terence Conran said that. So just use IKEA stuff then.

Nicknoxx wrote in message
...
I planning to sell my house and buy two smaller ones, renovate them
and sell on at a profit.

I imaging that rewiring, new heating system, kitchen and bathroom will
be required but not any major structural work.

I would like to do all of the work myself but am not au fait with the
subtleties of the building regualtions to know what problems I'm
likely to encounter.

Any advice gratefully received.




Judging from your CV.....

I don't mention on my CV that I've spent the last five years doing up
three cottages, have installed one heating system including underfloor
heating, done a loft conversion and installed three bathrooms.

Without knowing FA about building regualtions (sic)
Why is it that so many people seem to think that property development is a
licence to print money.

b) Get a job in I.T.

Got one - sort of - bored


Oh Surprise surprise.


-

Mark wrote:


Without knowing FA about building regualtions (sic)
Why is it that so many people seem to think that property development is a
licence to print money.


Nobody said it was licence to print money. I've had several major
career changes over the last 20 years, and haven't regretted any of
them. After graduating in Mechanical Engineering I moved into
Interactive TV production in the early eighties and then onto Video
editing and eventually Digital Effects.

I've learnt a great deal over the last few years about house renovation
and find that my current career isn't very challenging any more. It's
clear from the Property Ladder type programmes that complete numpties
can made money doing up houses and I thought it was time to have a go.

What's so wrong with that?

I recon that if my wife and I do all the work ourselves we should be
able to make a living out of it even if the housing market remains
fairly static.

3 bed semis in our area go for about £150k to £200k depending mainly on
condition and we estimate it would take about £30k to bring one up to
standard (£15k in materials and £15k in our time) which still leaves
room for a healthy margin

Helpful advice gratefully received


--
Nick Brooks

"Nicknoxx" wrote in message
...
Mark wrote:


Without knowing FA about building regualtions (sic)
Why is it that so many people seem to think that property development is
a
licence to print money.


Nobody said it was licence to print money. I've had several major
career changes over the last 20 years, and haven't regretted any of
them. After graduating in Mechanical Engineering I moved into
Interactive TV production in the early eighties and then onto Video
editing and eventually Digital Effects.

I've learnt a great deal over the last few years about house renovation
and find that my current career isn't very challenging any more. It's
clear from the Property Ladder type programmes that complete numpties
can made money doing up houses and I thought it was time to have a go.

What's so wrong with that?

Those numpties actually lost money. They only made money because the market
was rising. They would have made more by leaving the houses a year or so.
How many don't make money? How many do make a decent profit, when all the
time and effort and legal fees , etc are taken into account? Most would
make more as bus drives doing overtime.

I recon that if my wife and I do all the work ourselves we should be
able to make a living out of it even if the housing market remains
fairly static.

3 bed semis in our area go for about £150k to £200k depending mainly on
condition and we estimate it would take about £30k to bring one up to
standard (£15k in materials and £15k in our time) which still leaves
room for a healthy margin

Helpful advice gratefully received

Know the market and the ceiling in the area. You could have solid gold taps
and yet, if the ceiling is 170,000, then that is all you get.

In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Money isnt that easy, doesnt grow on trees. You need plenty of
knowledge and skills. In a rising fast moving market you could make
something anyway, otherwise not. I'd consider a job first.

Do a Google on this group by timegoesby. He does this and listed the
points to watch out for.

He appears not to have posted here for some time. Perhaps some irate
buyers have caught up with him?

It appears that just fitting in medium priced fittings and not
overdoing it, with a good state of decoration is all that is needed.

Fine for a chav flat in MK, pet.

A sense of space is needed too. And make the front door look good, the
first impressions, Terence Conran said that. So just use IKEA stuff
then.

And of course the cheapest combi you can find.

--
*I was once a millionaire but my mom gave away my baseball cards

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Nicknoxx typed:

Mark wrote:

Without knowing FA about building regualtions (sic)
Why is it that so many people seem to think that property
development is a licence to print money.


It's clear from the Property Ladder type programmes that
complete numpties can made money doing up houses and I thought it was
time to have a go.

Its also clear from the Property Ladder type programmes that
complete numpties *THINK* they can made money doing up houses.


What's so wrong with that?

Nothing, but to make a living from it is an entirely different ballgame it
takes many skills and a large portion of luck to succeed in the long term.
I started at 18 and believe me there are quicker and easier ways to get rich
quick.


Helpful advice gratefully received

Don't give up the day job :-)


-

"Dave Plowman (News)" through a haze of senile
flatulence wrote in message ...
In article ews.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Money isnt that easy, doesnt grow on trees. You need plenty of
knowledge and skills. In a rising fast moving market you could make
something anyway, otherwise not. I'd consider a job first.

Do a Google on this group by timegoesby. He does this and listed the
points to watch out for.

He appears

** snip senility **

Mark wrote:
Nicknoxx typed:

Mark wrote:

Without knowing FA about building regualtions (sic)
Why is it that so many people seem to think that property
development is a licence to print money.


It's clear from the Property Ladder type programmes that
complete numpties can made money doing up houses and I thought it was
time to have a go.

Its also clear from the Property Ladder type programmes that
complete numpties *THINK* they can made money doing up houses.


What's so wrong with that?

Nothing, but to make a living from it is an entirely different ballgame it
takes many skills and a large portion of luck to succeed in the long term.
I started at 18 and believe me there are quicker and easier ways to get rich
quick.

Long term, I don't know anyone that hasn't made good money in property.

To make money in property, you don't need luck, you need some balls,
good sense and having done all your homework properly. The luck is when
property prices are rocketing regardless of your input.

"Nicknoxx" wrote in message
...
Hi All

I planning to sell my house and buy two smaller ones, renovate them and
sell on at a profit.

I imaging that rewiring, new heating system, kitchen and bathroom will
be required but not any major structural work.

I would like to do all of the work myself but am not au fait with the
subtleties of the building regualtions to know what problems I'm likely
to encounter.

Any advice gratefully received.



Nick Brooks

Nick

I did exactly what you are planning 3 years ago, moved out of IT into
property. You need to think very carefully about cashflow. If you only
enough cash behind you to keep you afloat for at least 12 months don't take
on a project you think will take more than 6 months. You can make money,
sometimes a lot and sometimes nothing so watch out! I did well enough at the
start to let me sit on my existing properties until the market picks up. I'm
renting them until I can get a decent return and now looking at foreign
property whilst the UK market is static. Right now I would consider if its
the best of times to get into property.

Have you thought at supplimenting you income by contracting whilst working
on your own projects? Building doesn't pay *anything* until you sell and
there can be a big gap between finishing a project and the completion of a
sale!

The alternative to your approach of DIY is to contract out 90% of the work
and you just project manage it. When you consider the time savings it can be
cheaper.

Just a few thoughts.

typed:

Without knowing FA about building regualtions (sic)
Why is it that so many people seem to think that property
development is a licence to print money.


It's clear from the Property Ladder type programmes that
complete numpties can made money doing up houses and I thought it
was time to have a go.

Its also clear from the Property Ladder type programmes that
complete numpties *THINK* they can made money doing up houses.


What's so wrong with that?

Nothing, but to make a living from it is an entirely different
ballgame it takes many skills and a large portion of luck to succeed
in the long term. I started at 18 and believe me there are quicker
and easier ways to get rich quick.

Long term, I don't know anyone that hasn't made good money in
property.


What as a property developer with this as your sole income, as is being
suggested.
You must be another I.T. dreamer..

-

Mark wrote:
typed:

Without knowing FA about building regualtions (sic)
Why is it that so many people seem to think that property
development is a licence to print money.


It's clear from the Property Ladder type programmes that
complete numpties can made money doing up houses and I thought it
was time to have a go.

Its also clear from the Property Ladder type programmes that
complete numpties *THINK* they can made money doing up houses.


What's so wrong with that?

Nothing, but to make a living from it is an entirely different
ballgame it takes many skills and a large portion of luck to succeed
in the long term. I started at 18 and believe me there are quicker
and easier ways to get rich quick.

Long term, I don't know anyone that hasn't made good money in
property.


What as a property developer with this as your sole income, as is being
suggested.
You must be another I.T. dreamer..


No, I'm not in IT and I'm not a dreamer. Property development is
something I'm starting in part time though.
I know many people in who are in property and they are all very well
off. That's not to say any 'numpty' can do it and make money,
especially in the current market.

You say you've been in property development since you were 18 and I'm
assuming you mean you've been in it a long time. If you have been doing
it that long you must have had some serious bad luck not to be making a
good income solely from property now.

And if you think there are far easier ways to make more money, why
aren't you doing those instead?

Nicknoxx wrote:

I recon that if my wife and I do all the work ourselves we should be
able to make a living out of it even if the housing market remains
fairly static.

3 bed semis in our area go for about £150k to £200k depending mainly on
condition and we estimate it would take about £30k to bring one up to
standard (£15k in materials and £15k in our time) which still leaves
room for a healthy margin

So you buy at 150k and hope to sell at 200k?
gross margin 50k

less transaction costs buying and selling
less opportunity cost of capital for how long?

less materials 15k

it's a business so factor in all the costs of a business
pay two people 15k for how long?

assume a static market in which the value of your stock may go up as
well as down.

Personally I'd stick to the day job

--
David Clark

$message_body_include ="PLES RING IF AN RNSR IS REQIRD"

In message , DJC
writes
Nicknoxx wrote:

I recon that if my wife and I do all the work ourselves we should be
able to make a living out of it even if the housing market remains
fairly static.
3 bed semis in our area go for about £150k to £200k depending mainly
on condition and we estimate it would take about £30k to bring one up
to standard (£15k in materials and £15k in our time) which still
leaves room for a healthy margin

So you buy at 150k and hope to sell at 200k?
gross margin 50k

less transaction costs buying and selling
less opportunity cost of capital for how long?

less materials 15k

it's a business so factor in all the costs of a business
pay two people 15k for how long?

assume a static market in which the value of your stock may go
up as well as down.

And then, it's liable for capital gains tax ...

--
geoff

raden wrote:

And then, it's liable for capital gains tax ...

Only if you buy and sell the house personally I would have thought.

If you wrap it in a Ltd company created for the purposes of the business
of property development then you ought to avoid that. The tricky thing
then is getting enough money into the company to do the buying and the
work.

One of those occasions where you need advice from a good accountant to
plan not only your operating methods, but also your exit strategy.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

typed:
Long term, I don't know anyone that hasn't made good money in
property.


What as a property developer with this as your sole income, as is
being suggested.
You must be another I.T. dreamer..


No, I'm not in IT and I'm not a dreamer. Property development is
something I'm starting in part time though.


Ah BIG difference.


I know many people in who are in property and they are all very well
off. That's not to say any 'numpty' can do it and make money,
especially in the current market.

You say you've been in property development since you were 18 and I'm
assuming you mean you've been in it a long time. If you have been
doing it that long you must have had some serious bad luck not to be
making a good income solely from property now.

I have made a very good living from it, but in the early years I was working
an 18 hour day 7 days a week with massive monthly mortgage repayments to
meet. I've survived the booms and busts and never had the luxury of working
for an employer and knocking off at 5pm. I watch programs like Property
Ladder and wonder at the gullibility of people drawn to this easy way of
making money, any numpties can make money in the Boom periods but it takes a
lot more experience to survive the rest of the time.


And if you think there are far easier ways to make more money, why
aren't you doing those instead?

I am, apart from several houses/flats that i own and rent out, I own a
holiday/camping/leisure/centre set in 200 acres of the finest Sussex
download and this year finally mortgage free.
And all financed from a £400 18th birthday present.
I've never said that you cant make money in property development but do the
sums and see what's involved in a 4% growth market, but include ALL the
expenses/tax, pay yourself a wage and see how much profit there is.

good luck but dont give up the day job.


-

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , DJC
writes
Nicknoxx wrote:

I recon that if my wife and I do all the work ourselves we should be
able to make a living out of it even if the housing market remains
fairly static.
3 bed semis in our area go for about £150k to £200k depending mainly on
condition and we estimate it would take about £30k to bring one up to
standard (£15k in materials and £15k in our time) which still leaves
room for a healthy margin

So you buy at 150k and hope to sell at 200k?
gross margin 50k

less transaction costs buying and selling
less opportunity cost of capital for how long?

less materials 15k

it's a business so factor in all the costs of a business
pay two people 15k for how long?

assume a static market in which the value of your stock may go up
as well as down.

And then, it's liable for capital gains tax ...

Not necessarily. Have that as your main source of income, and only pay
income tax on your profit.

Owain wrote:
Nicknoxx wrote:

I imaging that rewiring, new heating system, kitchen and bathroom will
be required but not any major structural work.
I would like to do all of the work myself but am not au fait with the
subtleties of the building regualtions to know what problems I'm
likely to encounter.

Unless you use a contractor who is a member of a self-certification
organisation (eg NICEIC or NAPIT for electrics; ie CORGI for gas, FENSA
for windows) you will need to make a Building Regulations application
for rewiring (Part P will apply to a complete rewire), new heating
system (Part L), replacement windows (Part L?) ...

You will need Building Regulations application for any new connections
to drains or sewers (which might cover putting in an en-suite) as AFAIK
plumbing isn't (yet) covered by a self-certification scheme.

Owain


Now we're getting somewhere. So I can do all the electrics and plumbing
(except Gas?) myself as long as I get it approved by the BR officer?

Is there a simplified summary of Part P and L somewhere?

Nick Brooks wrote:

Now we're getting somewhere. So I can do all the electrics and plumbing
(except Gas?) myself as long as I get it approved by the BR officer?

Is there a simplified summary of Part P and L somewhere?

Best wait for someone else to confirm this, but afaik you can do all
your own gas work too, on condition youre doing it just for yourself
and are competent. If doing it for hire, no you cant.


NT

wrote:
Nick Brooks wrote:


Now we're getting somewhere. So I can do all the electrics and plumbing
(except Gas?) myself as long as I get it approved by the BR officer?

Is there a simplified summary of Part P and L somewhere?


Best wait for someone else to confirm this, but afaik you can do all
your own gas work too, on condition youre doing it just for yourself
and are competent. If doing it for hire, no you cant.


NT


What about doing it for someone else for free?

"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Nick Brooks wrote:


Now we're getting somewhere. So I can do all the electrics and plumbing
(except Gas?) myself as long as I get it approved by the BR officer?

Is there a simplified summary of Part P and L somewhere?


Best wait for someone else to confirm this, but afaik you can do all
your own gas work too, on condition youre doing it just for yourself
and are competent. If doing it for hire, no you cant.

What about doing it for someone else for free?

Totally legal to do so.

"Nicknoxx" wrote in message
...
Hi All

I planning to sell my house and buy two smaller ones, renovate them and
sell on at a profit.

I imaging that rewiring, new heating system, kitchen and bathroom will be
required but not any major structural work.

I would like to do all of the work myself but am not au fait with the
subtleties of the building regualtions to know what problems I'm likely to
encounter.

Any advice gratefully received.

You are thinking of moving into property development at a time when a
property developer I have known for years is looking elsewhere for work. I
suspect you may have got the timing wrong.

Colin Bignell

nightjar nightjar@ wrote:


You are thinking of moving into property development at a time when a
property developer I have known for years is looking elsewhere for work. I
suspect you may have got the timing wrong.

Colin Bignell


Lots of people are trying to get into my profession just as I'm leaving.
If you told us WHY your friend is getting out of development, it might
have some meaning.





--
Nick Brooks

GN125 ('till test passed)
1960 SWB Landrover
1974 Mercedes Camper Van
1999 Klein Attitude
1997 Golf VR6
Combined vehicle age 90

raden typed:



So you buy at 150k and hope to sell at 200k?
gross margin 50k

it's a business so factor in all the costs of a business


And then, it's liable for capital gains tax ...

Creative accounting is a another necessary skill needed, as is a good
accountant, but in the present market I doubt you would make sufficient
profit to warrant the expense with a Beeny type project.


-

Nick Brooks typed:

Now we're getting somewhere. So I can do all the electrics and
plumbing (except Gas?) myself as long as I get it approved by the BR
officer?

Is there a simplified summary of Part P and L somewhere?

Look, you can do _everything_ yourself if that's the way you think would
be the most profitable including buying and fitting your own gas boiler.

But you will need all the necessary certificates when you intend to sell.
all of this is covered in the B-regs, copies are available from HMSO (odpm)
or online, not being completely "au fait" as you put it
before even thinking of starting a project is madness, and to me shows a
complete underestimate of the work involved in this type of business.
No doubt if you have specific questions regarding the regs the very helpful
people on here will be happy to help.


-

Mark wrote:
not being completely "au fait" as you put it
before even thinking of starting a project is madness, and to me shows a
complete underestimate of the work involved in this type of business.

I haven't started and don't plan to for about six months - hence the
questions on here.

--
Nick Brooks

GN125 ('till test passed)
1960 SWB Landrover
1974 Mercedes Camper Van
1999 Klein Attitude
1997 Golf VR6
Combined vehicle age 90

"Nicknoxx" wrote in message
...
nightjar nightjar@ wrote:


You are thinking of moving into property development at a time when a
property developer I have known for years is looking elsewhere for work.
I suspect you may have got the timing wrong.

Colin Bignell

Lots of people are trying to get into my profession just as I'm leaving.
If you told us WHY your friend is getting out of development, it might
have some meaning.

Because he is no longer making enough money from property development.

Colin Bignell

In message , Nicknoxx
writes
I've learnt a great deal over the last few years about house renovation
and find that my current career isn't very challenging any more. It's
clear from the Property Ladder type programmes that complete numpties
can made money doing up houses and I thought it was time to have a go.

Dont forget that all of these numpties made money because the housing
market rose during the time they were doing the work. In most instances,
Beeny says that they could have done nothing to the properties and sold
them for the same, or more, profit.

In a static, (or falling), market they would all have lost money.

One view I have always taken with a fixer upper is to be sure that
rental income would cover the ongoing costs, if selling wasnt a
realistic option.

--
Richard Faulkner