"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:02:50 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
But!!! Any test that say the Prius does 23mpg,
and not worth read and the mag gets thrown in the bin . never to be
bought
again.

It isn't reasonable to assess this on the number of publications that
say one thing vs. the other. The writers of articles for all of
them are open to question and in most spheres rely on information
that
the manufacturer feeds them. This is certainly true in the IT world
and must be in the motor world as well because most writers for IT
magazines write for bike and car magazines the rest of their time.

Autocar of course quote
the official fuel consumption

....and then frig the test. No one remotely gets anywhere them in mpg.
Crooks the lot of them.

What could possibly be their motivation to do that? Do you imagine
that they are being paid by Nissan or Honda or something?

Must be. That are so way out it is laughable. They must know that by
issuing such poor reports that people are going question their integrity.
Must have been desperate for cash.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:38:23 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:




If a mage was saying the mpg was 10% less than what the makers say, then
you
take note. But when they say its only fraction, then the mag is called
into
question, especially when independent mags and uses get near 3 times as
much.

No, you look at bothe sets of tests and data in more detail.

When 100s say one thing and they say its a third of 100s or 1000s, then you
don't read it, it is obviously garbage. AutoExpress averaged over 65mpg. I
get over 55mpg, and rising.

I wouldn't make a decision on who
I believed based on shear weight of
numbers either way, but would weigh
up the information and look for
disinterested sources.

When only one say something ridiculous, it is the one which is at fault.

Not necessarily. One has to look at what
tests were done

0-60 dragster starts. Yep everyone does them every few minutes on the road.

In that sense, Graham can be discounted because he is a purchaser of
the product but without any independent measurement resources.

Once one throws away the noise of
interested parties and the
incompetent and looks for the
competent and disinterested, it becomse
very easy to find the truth.

And a quite look around the web gives you it. And all they had to do
was
ask me.

Well that would be a reliable source of course.

The most reliable.

However, whether you agreed with
her or not, there was never any doubt
about wher eshe stood on most issues.

Yep. The wrong stance.

From your perspective, not from mine.

From the mass poverty, 1000s living on the streets,

There are still 1000s living on the streets. Have you looked around
the Waterloo and Kings Cross areas lately?

Not like it was. There is no need for them to be on the street the
provision is there and the government is getting them off the streets. When
the Wicked Witch was in charge there was nothing except soup queues.

the disappearance of British industry (the new Queen Mary had to be
built in France), etc.

British industry as it was was
disappearing anyway

It wasn't. She got rid of it.

This is no longer true for any
politician that I can see of any party,

Thank God.

That is actually a shame. There are
none now who have a clear stance.

If a clear stance means: mass poverty, 1000s living on the streets, which
disgusted Mother Theresa, the disappearance of British industry (the new
Queen Mary had to be built in France), etc, then we don't need clear
stances. Hitler had a clear stance.

A clear stance means a clear stance. Nobody said that you had to
agree with it.

You regard it as a great thing. The Witches stance was to keep the rich
rich no matter. She succeeded.

and Herr Blurr is worse than
most in terms of telling you what you want to hear.

Best MP we have had in living memory.
Best government we have had in living
memory. That is obvious.

Not according to my definition.

But you are in Little Middle England. That is sad.

How's the one room council flat?

I would rather live in a sink estate than live in Little Middle England.
There again living with the likes of the Lunatic would put me off.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"J.D. Power's annual Initial Quality Study said owners of a Lexus SC 430
reported 54 problems per 100 vehicles in the first 90 days of ownership.
(The average number of reported defects across the industry is 118
problems per 100 cars.) Other Toyota models scored high marks as well,
coming in first in another 9 out of 18 model segments. The Prius
(compact car), the Scion tC" (Sporty Car) and Toyota RAV4 (Entry SUV)
all placed first in their segment.

What do a load of assorted IC engined cars have to do with this?

Such nonsense.

cut drivel

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
The mag is clearly wrong and misleading.

I repeat:

snip babble

If

snip more babble

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article s.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Once again , the variable ratio is raising or lowering torque in
"series"
(normal CVTs), it is applying power/torque from two "parallel" power
sources.

One of which,

snip non-comprehension and babble

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

0-60 and top speed are meaningless. It is the mid acceleration time
that
matter and the Prius ****es all over the others.

Since it's got a CVT,

NO CVT

snip idiotic rambling

Doctor Drivel wrote:

Here you go again. Did we say the
prius has a "conventional" CVT


Yes.

No, you are still obviously not comprehending. It does not have a
conventional CVT gearbox. However it does have a gear system that allows
the drive ratio between engine and wheels to vary at will. Hence it is a
form of CVT.

No you are the one talking about torque ratios. I am talking about ratio
between wheel speed and engine speed.


Which is done by raising or lowering the power of the total of two power
sources. Get it? Just like squeezing the trigger on the power drill.

"Push harder on the throttle and the car goes faster" is what you seem
to be saying...

Yup ok, no problem going along with that.

You are the one who said that it
can accelerate while the engine note
remains constant.


It can, by increasing the power from the electric motor.

Increasing the speed certainly - power output would depend on load.

Do you comprehend that this implies the
engine speed is constant? If the engine speed is
constant and the wheel speed is increasing
then the drive ratio between them is changing.


You lack comprehension. The "total" power is from two power sources. The
engine can be constant speed and the electric motor spun up to turn the
wheels more. The management system can play about with speeds of the two
motors.

It can play about with the speed of the engine, remember the electric
motor is coupled to the wheel speed and needs to be at least
approximately what the driver is asking for.

For e.g., say the car is running at a constant 10mph. The elctric motor can
be running just by itself, then when the battery runs down the petrol motor
is brought in to assist. The battery runs down even further and the
electric motor runs down in speed an the petrol motor runs up in speed, yet
the car is still doing 10 mph.

How does the electric motor run down in speed if it is coupled to the
wheels through a fixed ratio and you are still doing 10mph?

The management system plays about with the
speeds of two motors to deliver the "total" power/torque" at the wheels.

at the wheels and the generator. Remember these are symbiotically
linked. By diverting greater angular velocity toward the generator, you
reduce that directed to the wheels. It is this ability to vary velocity
split that gives you the CV element of the transmission.

Focus clearly on angular velocity. There is one measurable at the output
of the engine. Another measurable at the wheels. The relationship
between them (i.e. the gearing) is not fixed.

This where you are confused. Because the combined motors deliver the
required power/torque at the wheels, which by default means torque rises and
lowers and the power is raised and lowered, you think there must by a CVT to
raise and lower the torque. No. Look at the above electic motor and
torque

No, I know there is a variable element in the final drive between engine
and wheels (but not motor and wheels), because the engine rotation speed
does not dictate the wheel rotation speed. The difference between motor
and engine speeds dictates the wheel rotation speed in combination with
the generator speed. By managing this difference you can control the
velocity ratio split between generator and wheels. Hence drive ratio
between engine and wheels.

Given that you accept the wheels can be driven by the engine, and their
speed does not have to remain constant for a constant engine speed, to
claim there is no variation in gearing going is plainly absurd.


NO variation in gearing. See above electic motor and torque. In effect
the power splitter makes the petrol motor and the elecric motor one motor,
with electric motor qualities of delivering power/torque, which means no
gearing or belts are required. Read that again and understand. It is the
key.

Why this fascination with belts? Do you understand the concept of
"gearing" need have nothing to do with belts? It is simply an expression
of a relationship of the input angular velocity to output (and an equal
but inverse relationship between input and output torque).

There is nothing potentially unreliabe about the Prius. It is the USAs 1st
or 2nd most reliable car.

Data source?

Image you mentioned. It has image!!!! Dustan Hoffman was the first in
California to drive out with anew Lexus hybrid

I can see the Lexus would appeal more in that market.

I don't agree. I have had two turbo diesels. They are not bad when being
gentle. Put your foot down and drink the fuel. I mean from near 40 mpg to
less than 20mpg. And I don't mean standing 0-60 standing starts, just
keeping up with the zippy traffic. Diesels are crap and always have been.

If TD's are so bad, why did you buy two?

It is foolish to even compare one to a Prius.

Back in the real world it will have to be compared to everything else on
the market in the price range.

reliable. All major makers are bringing out models based on the Prius.
Development is not finished on it yet.

I am sure it is not, hence the results will get better.

For example, I am not too worried about
running costs myself - I don't do particularly
high milages. Many people don't care about
emissions that much either.


Most don't. Most think their car is clean because it has a catalyst.

The addition of a catalyst does reduce noxious emissions greatly. It
does not reduce greenhouse gas emissions however. The prius has a
catalyist and still emits greenhouse gasses. From the "clean in town"
aspect it is noxious and particulate emissions that matter most. The
greenhouse gas emissions are not particularly directly harmful to people
- and will still end up in the general atmosphere even if you can move
production of them from one place to another.

"Normal performance" however sounds rather
uninspiring, I would expect much better from
a 20k car (not just power, but handling).


Handling is very good. The batteries distribute weight more evenly.
Performance? See Pauls post of acceleration vs BMW 5 series, it ****es all
over it.

Sorry that is nonsense. Paul's figures gave performance in "top gear" -
firstly not something you can select in a prius making the comparison
nonsensical, and secondly, not something you *would* select in a BMW if
you were after best acceleration.

BMWs have some of the best performing TDs there are. The 2L engine used
in the 320Cd develops 150bhp, and gives the car a top speed of 137mph
and a 0-60 of 8.8 seconds. That is significantly better than the prius.

The 3L model being discussed has a six cylinder engine that develops
218bhp and has 7.1 sec 0-60 performance figures. That puts it firmly in
the performance car category. It also has 410 Nm of torque. It could
probably tow a prius faster than it could accelerate on its own!

As I said, even if your figues were true
(and others cast doubt on these) that
is not significantly better than a TD.


They are better and have none of the awful smelliness and noise of diesels.
Diesels handle appallingly as the front end is far too heavy.

Ah, a famous generalisation...

Do you seriously expect that the prius would out handle a 3' series?

I can't go faster than 70mph and 100 is a speed I get to.

Why can it not go faster than 70?



A bag of olives please...


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:49:58 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Edward W. Thompson wrote:
Think they calim 122bhp now... but its only 78 of your real bhp though -
since the engine is the only source of power ultimately. The claimed
output can only be sustained until the batteries are low on juice. An
enthusiastic drive round some B roads ought to see to that ;-)

Not sure I understand your point/obsession with horsepower. The
horsepower required to maintain the vehicle at a constant 60 mph in
still conditions will be about, say 15 hp (maybe less but not more) so
78 hp available seems adequate.

Then why do low powered cars not sell well in the UK? Because being able
to cruise at 60 - just - doesn't suit the majority. They want *any* car to
keep up easily on the motorway up hill and down dale regardless of whether
there's a wind, or the load it's carrying. Driving an underpowered car on
today's motorways is a very frustrating experience.

Firstly what does and does not sell well in the UK is no guide as to a
product's merits. In the UK cars are marketed quite differently to
how they are in North America and North American's attitude towards
cars is also quite different. In North America, for most, cars are
simply 'tools' in the same category as a dishwasher. In the UK and
Europe it seems as cars are associated with the male macho image, all
about acceleration, horsepower and other 'go faster' stuff. What a
lot of nonsense!

With respect to the Prius being underpowered for motorway driving, I
thought, possibly incorrectly, that motorway driving is essentially
constant speed and the speed limit is 70 mph. You don't need a high
powered vehicle for that. Even the boy racers in the outside lane who
insist on endangering everyone by driving at 80/90 mph plus do not
require more than 50 hp in a modern vehicle with a low CD

With respect to acceleration, sure that's important if you are going
to race the vehicle but what other true relevance does it have when
considering the car is for transportation? If you regard it as some
sort of macho toy then that is another matter. I suggest vehicles such
as the Prius are not intended for the 'boy racer' market.

They're not intended for this country full stop. They're made for some
cities in the US, etc. As a mainly town car.

It is true the hybrid class of vehicle excels in a stop go
environment, typical of a city (although won't be that long before
stop/go is also typical on UK motorways :-)). However, for many, but
by no means all, much of their driving time is in a stop/go
environment or short distances and under these circumstances hybrid
cars compete and likely excel in all respects when compared to
conventional vehicles. Why you seem to think North American cities are
significantly different to UK/European cities in this respect I can't
guess.

With respect to long distance cruising, I certain agree, hybrids do
not compete with similar conventional vehicles with respect to fuel
consumption or emissions but they are not designed for this use.
Taking an overall mix of driving conditions, for many, the hybrid is
likely very competitive.

You only have to look at the latest incarnation which is a Lexus similar
in size and shape to a Range Rover. But unlike a Range Rover, can't be
used off road, or to tow heavy loads. It produces very good fuel
consumption and performance *for that class of vehicle* but has little
relevance to this country either.

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:13:40 +0000 (UTC), Edward W. Thompson
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:49:58 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Edward W. Thompson wrote:
Think they calim 122bhp now... but its only 78 of your real bhp though -
since the engine is the only source of power ultimately. The claimed
output can only be sustained until the batteries are low on juice. An
enthusiastic drive round some B roads ought to see to that ;-)

Not sure I understand your point/obsession with horsepower. The
horsepower required to maintain the vehicle at a constant 60 mph in
still conditions will be about, say 15 hp (maybe less but not more) so
78 hp available seems adequate.

Then why do low powered cars not sell well in the UK? Because being able
to cruise at 60 - just - doesn't suit the majority. They want *any* car to
keep up easily on the motorway up hill and down dale regardless of whether
there's a wind, or the load it's carrying. Driving an underpowered car on
today's motorways is a very frustrating experience.

Firstly what does and does not sell well in the UK is no guide as to a
product's merits. In the UK cars are marketed quite differently to
how they are in North America and North American's attitude towards
cars is also quite different. In North America, for most, cars are
simply 'tools' in the same category as a dishwasher. In the UK and
Europe it seems as cars are associated with the male macho image, all
about acceleration, horsepower and other 'go faster' stuff. What a
lot of nonsense!

I think that this is a stereotyped generalisation.

Cars certainly are marketed differently in different countries,
although in the U.S. I see plenty of car advertisements that play
towards different wants and needs. For some people it's price,
others it's style and performance, and so on. Performance isn't
always how quickly it accelerates though. For some, a big pick up
truck with large gasoline engine does it.

If anything, the approach seems to have more to do with the
manufacturer and country of origin.

For example, BMW and Merc sell on engineering quality and performance
just as they do here. French cars are not that popular, but the TV
adds tend to have some peculiar artistry aboout them that has little
to do with the car.

As you say, it is all nonsense though.






--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Edward W. Thompson" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:49:58 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"

With respect to long distance cruising,
I certain agree, hybrids do not compete
with similar conventional vehicles with
respect to fuel consumption or emissions
but they are not designed for this use.

The MK 2 Prius is designed for mixed use, whereas the smaller Mk1 was
primary a car designed for Japanese cities. The Mk 2 is much larger and
performance is excellent in any type of driving. Even on motorways the mpg
is still excellent.

Taking an overall mix of driving
conditions, for many, the hybrid is
likely very competitive.

More than competitive. Then there is reliability, of which it excels,
quietness, economy, emissions, cheap servicing, free parking, no congestion
charges, etc. No contest, the Prius wins hands down on all points.

The prices will drop as mass production gets under way, and most people in
few years will be going for hybrids as all makers flood them onto the
market.

John Rumm wrote:
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Sorry that is nonsense. Paul's figures gave performance in "top gear"
- firstly not something you can select in a prius making the
comparison nonsensical, and secondly, not something you *would*
select in a BMW if you were after best acceleration.

Point of Order.. I was quite careful to point out that they were random
figures pulled off the net...

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

No, you are still obviously not comprehending.
It does not have a conventional CVT gearbox.
However it does have a gear system that allows
the drive ratio between engine and wheels to
vary at will. Hence it is a form of CVT.

Wrong.

Back to basics again:
An EV has only an electric motor and no in-line gearbox between it and the
wheels. It can deliver the required levels of power/torque at the wheels.

The 4-stroke internal combustion engine is inadequate. It requires an
in-line gearbox, shifting up and down torque, as it cannot deliver the
power/torque directly on demand as an electric motor does.

Now the above is quite clear.

In effect the power splitter on a Prius combines the petrol motor and the
elecric motor into one motor with electric motor qualities of delivering
power/torque to the wheels on-demand. This means no in-line gearing or
belts are required to raise and lower torque.

Read the above again and understand. It is the key.

There is nothing potentially unreliabe
about the Prius. It is the USAs 1st
or 2nd most reliable car.

Data source?

See other post. JD Power voted the Prius the most reliable car in its
segment.

Image you mentioned. It has image!!!!
Dustan Hoffman was the first in
California to drive out with a new Lexus hybrid

I can see the Lexus would appeal more in that market.

So does the Prius. Last year many top actors turned up in a Prius rather
than a big black limo to the Oscars.

If TD's are so bad, why did you buy two?

Company cars. I had the choice so decided to go for what appeared on paper
to me economic for me to run. The TDs were no more economic than the petrol
version in real driving, A waste of noisy, expensive, dirty and smelly
time.

Comparing the Prius with an TD is bordering on silliness.

"PC Paul" wrote in message
o.uk...
John Rumm wrote:
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Sorry that is nonsense. Paul's figures gave performance in "top gear"
- firstly not something you can select in a prius making the
comparison nonsensical, and secondly, not something you *would*
select in a BMW if you were after best acceleration.

Point of Order.. I was quite careful to point out that they were random
figures pulled off the net...

They have a mental, block of "top gear". The figures you gave were speed
ranges.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

snip drivel


--

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
One of which, the motor, has fixed gearing, and the other, the engine, has
variable. Simple, really, no matter how you squirm.


I don't think your description is quite right. One of the electric
motors had fixed gearing, relative to the output shaft. The other
electric motor and the ICE have variable gearing. I think that the new
Prius has discarded the principle of having only one of the motors
effectively with fixed gearing by replacing the silent belt drive to the
differential and reduction gears with a pair of V pulleys operating as a
CVT, hence the description of the new model as a CVT transmission.

(Note carefully: there is no gearbox we are informed!!!)

This appears to have been necessary because of the wider speed range
required of the final drive as the performance has been increased.
Incidentally, apparently only 1/6 of the battery capacity is actually
usable because of the necessity to achieve battery life.

Maybe IMM can inform us!!!

Regards
Capitol

"Capitol" wrote in message
...


Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
One of which, the motor, has fixed gearing, and the other, the engine,
has
variable. Simple, really, no matter how you squirm.

I don't think your description is quite right. One of the electric
motors had fixed gearing, relative to the output shaft. The other
electric motor and the ICE have variable gearing. I think

You "think" wrong. I fact the drive is a chain.

(Note carefully: there is no gearbox we are informed!!!)

There is none. read recent post explaining the power splitter.

snip

Doctor Drivel wrote:

An EV has only an electric motor and no in-line gearbox between it and the
wheels. It can deliver the required levels of power/torque at the wheels.

The 4-stroke internal combustion engine is inadequate. It requires an
in-line gearbox, shifting up and down torque, as it cannot deliver the
power/torque directly on demand as an electric motor does.

Now the above is quite clear.

Indeed it is...

In effect the power splitter on a Prius combines the petrol motor and the
elecric motor into one motor with electric motor qualities of delivering
power/torque to the wheels on-demand. This means no in-line gearing or
belts are required to raise and lower torque.

Agreed

Read the above again and understand. It is the key.

Understood.

The velocity ratio between wheels and engine however is continously
variable. As is the torque. So that constitues a CV gearing between
wheels and engine. Simple.

If don't wish to accept that then don't worry, you can carry on deluding
yourself if you wish.

Anyway, enought time wasted on this....

There is nothing potentially unreliabe
about the Prius. It is the USAs 1st
or 2nd most reliable car.

Data source?


See other post. JD Power voted the Prius the most reliable car in its
segment.

And "its segment" (sic) being?

So does the Prius. Last year many top actors turned up in a Prius rather
than a big black limo to the Oscars.

Not thinking of taking up scientology next are you?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Edward W. Thompson wrote:
Why you seem to think North American cities are
significantly different to UK/European cities in this respect I can't
guess.

The difference is in the driving style. The US cars in general, don't
corner very well as the suspensions are set for comfort, the gear ratios
are set higher for fuel economy (of sorts) and you will frequently see a
SUV drop from 40mph to 5mph say for a corner and then take for ever to
accelerate. This can give real decision problems when you are used to
rapidly accelerating across dense traffic streams, using his gap, to
follow round the corner!! In Europe, cars are smaller and underpowered
and the drivers normally try to corner at 30mph IME to avoid the need to
accelerate. The European car has quite good 0-30mph acceleration times,
harder suspension and corners outstandingly in the dry! Not too bad in
the wet. I can understand if the Prius with US suspension settings and a
high weight/power ratio doesn't do too well on performance and fuel
economy under cut and thrust European driving conditions.

Regards
Capitol

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

An EV has only an electric motor and no in-line gearbox between it and
the
wheels. It can deliver the required levels of power/torque at the
wheels.

The 4-stroke internal combustion engine is inadequate. It requires an
in-line gearbox, shifting up and down torque, as it cannot deliver the
power/torque directly on demand as an electric motor does.

Now the above is quite clear.

Indeed it is...

In effect the power splitter on a Prius combines the petrol motor and
the
elecric motor into one motor with electric motor qualities of delivering
power/torque to the wheels on-demand. This means no in-line gearing or
belts are required to raise and lower torque.

Agreed

Read the above again and understand. It is the key.

Understood.

Now we are getting somewhere.

The velocity ratio between wheels
and engine however is continously
variable. As is the torque. So that
constitues a CV gearing between
wheels and engine. Simple.

Much wrongness again. The petrol motor is one of two motors that combine as
"one entity" to give the power/torque characteristics of one electric motor.
There is no CVT/gearbox between only one of the motors and the wheels, as
the two motors are as one.

You have big trouble grapsing this simple concept.

"Capitol" wrote in message
...


Edward W. Thompson wrote:
Why you seem to think North American cities are
significantly different to UK/European cities in this respect I can't
guess.

The difference is in the driving style. The US cars in general, don't
corner very well as the suspensions are set for comfort, the gear ratios
are set higher for fuel economy (of sorts) and you will frequently see a
SUV drop from 40mph to 5mph say for a corner and then take for ever to
accelerate. This can give real decision problems when you are used to
rapidly accelerating across dense traffic streams, using his gap, to
follow round the corner!! In Europe, cars are smaller and underpowered
and the drivers normally try to corner at 30mph IME to avoid the need to
accelerate. The European car has quite good 0-30mph acceleration times,
harder suspension and corners outstandingly in the dry! Not too bad in
the wet. I can understand if the Prius with US suspension settings and a
high weight/power ratio doesn't do too well on performance and fuel
economy under cut and thrust European driving conditions.

It does, as it was designed for the Japanese market.

In article ,
Edward W. Thompson wrote:
Then why do low powered cars not sell well in the UK? Because being
able to cruise at 60 - just - doesn't suit the majority. They want
*any* car to keep up easily on the motorway up hill and down dale
regardless of whether there's a wind, or the load it's carrying.
Driving an underpowered car on today's motorways is a very frustrating
experience.

Firstly what does and does not sell well in the UK is no guide as to a
product's merits. In the UK cars are marketed quite differently to
how they are in North America and North American's attitude towards
cars is also quite different. In North America, for most, cars are
simply 'tools' in the same category as a dishwasher. In the UK and
Europe it seems as cars are associated with the male macho image, all
about acceleration, horsepower and other 'go faster' stuff. What a
lot of nonsense!

Err, the average power of US cars is far higher than the average in Europe
- or the UK. Hence the best selling vehicle being a pick-up truck with a
vast V-8 engine.
To say that the average US car is simply a basic tool is simply not true.
Because historically they've had cheap fuel they're used to large and
powerful cars.

With respect to the Prius being underpowered for motorway driving, I
thought, possibly incorrectly, that motorway driving is essentially
constant speed and the speed limit is 70 mph. You don't need a high
powered vehicle for that. Even the boy racers in the outside lane who
insist on endangering everyone by driving at 80/90 mph plus do not
require more than 50 hp in a modern vehicle with a low CD

It depends on how long you're prepared to wait for it to get to 70 or 80
or whatever. Once at that speed, the torque to maintain that may well be
low. But if the engine is running at maximum torque to maintain 70 on a
level road, it will have diabolical acceleration.

With respect to acceleration, sure that's important if you are going
to race the vehicle but what other true relevance does it have when
considering the car is for transportation? If you regard it as some
sort of macho toy then that is another matter. I suggest vehicles such
as the Prius are not intended for the 'boy racer' market.

They're not intended for this country full stop. They're made for some
cities in the US, etc. As a mainly town car.

It is true the hybrid class of vehicle excels in a stop go
environment, typical of a city (although won't be that long before
stop/go is also typical on UK motorways :-)). However, for many, but
by no means all, much of their driving time is in a stop/go
environment or short distances and under these circumstances hybrid
cars compete and likely excel in all respects when compared to
conventional vehicles. Why you seem to think North American cities are
significantly different to UK/European cities in this respect I can't
guess.

Because some are at the forefront of emission regs due to local
conditions. Non are in this country.

With respect to long distance cruising, I certain agree, hybrids do
not compete with similar conventional vehicles with respect to fuel
consumption or emissions but they are not designed for this use.
Taking an overall mix of driving conditions, for many, the hybrid is
likely very competitive.

Not borne out by the abysmal sales in the UK. It's simply too expensive
and too slow for general use. Most paying 20,000 quid for a car want
performance and style, and it's got neither. Nor is it a cheap car to run
when depreciation etc is taken into account, or even fun to drive.

It has a cloth cap and pipe image, without having the price to match that
market.

--
*Microsoft broke Volkswagen's record: They only made 21.4 million bugs.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
PC Paul wrote:
Point of Order.. I was quite careful to point out that they were random
figures pulled off the net...

Oh, everyone understood that but Evil. Quote any figures at him and
they're gospel if they agree with his warped views or rubbish when they
don't.

--
*If at first you do succeed, try not to look too astonished.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
The 4-stroke internal combustion engine is inadequate. It requires an
in-line gearbox, shifting up and down torque, as it cannot deliver the
power/torque directly on demand as an electric motor does.

Which means with the batteries exhausted as they will be after a certain
distance you end up with inadequate performance and poor economy.

Now the above is quite clear.

I'm glad you're finally seeing sense.

In effect the power splitter on a Prius combines the petrol motor and the
elecric motor into one motor with electric motor qualities of delivering
power/torque to the wheels on-demand.

If the batteries have any useful charge. Which it frequently doesn't on
open road motoring.

This means no in-line gearing or
belts are required to raise and lower torque.

No, just a CVT in the form of an epicyclic gearbox.

Read the above again and understand. It is the key.

You're getting there. A little more research and you'll be calling it a
CVT - just like Toyota do.

--
*The more I learn about women, the more I love my car

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Capitol wrote:
One of which, the motor, has fixed gearing, and the other, the engine,
has variable. Simple, really, no matter how you squirm.


I don't think your description is quite right. One of the electric
motors had fixed gearing, relative to the output shaft. The other
electric motor and the ICE have variable gearing.

On the original, the motor was directly connected to the driven wheels and
the ring gear, the generator to the sun wheel and the engine to the
planet carrier. Now assuming you run the engine at a constant speed,
altering the load on the generator brakes the sun wheel and alters the
ratio of the epicyclic box, infinitely between two limits.

I think that the new Prius has discarded the principle of having only
one of the motors effectively with fixed gearing by replacing the
silent belt drive to the differential and reduction gears with a pair
of V pulleys operating as a CVT, hence the description of the new model
as a CVT transmission.

The new Lexus with the latest version of the system certainly has a
conventional CVT in addition to epicyclic box, and a conventional V-6
petrol engine.

(Note carefully: there is no gearbox we are informed!!!)

This appears to have been necessary because of the wider speed range
required of the final drive as the performance has been increased.
Incidentally, apparently only 1/6 of the battery capacity is actually
usable because of the necessity to achieve battery life.

It's my understanding this is also the case with the latest Prius,
although I've not read a full test of one yet.

--
*OK, who stopped payment on my reality check?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

Much wrongness again. The petrol motor is one of two motors that combine as
"one entity" to give the power/torque characteristics of one electric motor.
There is no CVT/gearbox between only one of the motors and the wheels, as
the two motors are as one.

You have big trouble grapsing this simple concept.


True, your grasp is not complete! The gearbox is an epicyclic, with 3
driven shafts and 3 motors. Two of which can function as generators.
This produces a CVT transmission which is then geared down to road speed
with the chain reduction drive and differential gears.
(apparently, they only changed the epicyclic gear ratios on the later
Prius, although they relabeled it as CVT) The effect of using the
Atkinson cycle is to produce an ICE which will only operate
satisfactorily at certain rotational speeds, thus the electric motors
have to compensate for the engine shortcomings. The effect when you
drive the car hard, can be similar to the unwanted gearshifting of a
poor auto gearbox, with the torque applied at the wheels suddenly
changing when you don't want it to as the 3 power components don't quite
mesh perfectly!

It is of interest to note, that the latest Toyota eco car that I have
seen, has a diesel engine and I believe a normal CVT transmission. This
gives 100mpg claimed!

Regards
Capitol

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:40:38 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:




Not borne out by the abysmal sales in the UK. It's simply too expensive
and too slow for general use. Most paying 20,000 quid for a car want
performance and style, and it's got neither. Nor is it a cheap car to run
when depreciation etc is taken into account, or even fun to drive.

It has a cloth cap and pipe image, without having the price to match that
market.

So nothing to commend it at all then?




--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Now assuming you run the engine at a constant speed,
altering the load on the generator brakes the sun wheel and alters the
ratio of the epicyclic box, infinitely between two limits.

But it doesn't run at constant speed, although I agree with you that
the combination with both the other motors(generators) varies the
effective gear ratio of the epicyclic box.

It is an exceedingly clever system, but my personal opinion is that it
is too complex electronically to be long term viable. Water cooled 500V
electric motors with 50KW inverters driving them does not sound
economically repairable by my local garage!

Toyota have just crushed all their RAV4 EVs which they sold in
California, claiming that they were only prototype and would not meet
product liability claims! About 1000 AIUI.

Regards
Capitol

"Capitol" wrote in message
...

It is an exceedingly clever system, but my personal opinion is that it
is too complex electronically to be long term viable.

Do you think the electronics will break down? Well it is a management
system, and all cars have them. Most hybrid cars by all makers are to have
the Toyota system.

Water cooled 500V electric motors with
50KW inverters driving them does not sound
economically repairable by my local garage!

The whole drivetrain, except the petrol motor is guaranteed 8 years. They
would have an exchange system for such items.

Toyota have just crushed all their
RAV4 EVs which they sold in
California, claiming that they were
only prototype and would not meet
product liability claims! About 1000 AIUI.

As have all makers in the US, despite protests. Mitsubishi hare going EV in
a big way in about 4 years, using small wheel mounted motors.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Edward W. Thompson wrote:
Then why do low powered cars not sell well in the UK? Because being
able to cruise at 60 - just - doesn't suit the majority. They want
*any* car to keep up easily on the motorway up hill and down dale
regardless of whether there's a wind, or the load it's carrying.
Driving an underpowered car on today's motorways is a very frustrating
experience.

Firstly what does and does not sell well in the UK is no guide as to a
product's merits. In the UK cars are marketed quite differently to
how they are in North America and North American's attitude towards
cars is also quite different. In North America, for most, cars are
simply 'tools' in the same category as a dishwasher. In the UK and
Europe it seems as cars are associated with the male macho image, all
about acceleration, horsepower and other 'go faster' stuff. What a
lot of nonsense!

Err, the

It is a lot of nonsense

snip drivel
..
With respect to the Prius being underpowered for motorway driving, I
thought, possibly incorrectly, that motorway driving is essentially
constant speed and the speed limit is 70 mph. You don't need a high
powered vehicle for that. Even the boy racers in the outside lane who
insist on endangering everyone by driving at 80/90 mph plus do not
require more than 50 hp in a modern vehicle with a low CD

It depends

It doesn't depend

snip drivel

With respect to acceleration, sure that's important if you are going
to race the vehicle but what other true relevance does it have when
considering the car is for transportation? If you regard it as some
sort of macho toy then that is another matter. I suggest vehicles
such
as the Prius are not intended for the 'boy racer' market.

They're not intended for this country full stop. They're made for some
cities in the US, etc. As a mainly town car.

It is true the hybrid class of vehicle excels in a stop go
environment, typical of a city (although won't be that long before
stop/go is also typical on UK motorways :-)). However, for many, but
by no means all, much of their driving time is in a stop/go
environment or short distances and under these circumstances hybrid
cars compete and likely excel in all respects when compared to
conventional vehicles. Why you seem to think North American cities are
significantly different to UK/European cities in this respect I can't
guess.

Because

They are not different

snip drivel

With respect to long distance cruising, I certain agree, hybrids do
not compete with similar conventional vehicles with respect to fuel
consumption or emissions but they are not designed for this use.
Taking an overall mix of driving conditions, for many, the hybrid is
likely very competitive.

Not borne out

It is bourne out

snip drivel

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
PC Paul wrote:
Point of Order.. I was quite careful to point out that they were random
figures pulled off the net...

Oh, everyone understood that but

They were relevant and true figures that prove the Prius ****es over all
other cars.

snip drivel

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

The 4-stroke internal combustion engine is inadequate. It requires an
in-line gearbox, shifting up and down torque, as it cannot deliver the
power/torque directly on demand as an electric motor does.

Which means with the batteries
exhausted as they will be after a certain
distance

The batteries are never exhausted. The electric motor is always powered.

snip drivel

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Capitol wrote:

One of which, the motor, has fixed gearing, and the other, the engine,
has variable. Simple, really, no matter how you squirm.

I don't think your description is quite right. One of the electric
motors had fixed gearing, relative to the output shaft. The other
electric motor and the ICE have variable gearing.

On the original, the motor was directly connected to the driven wheels and
the ring gear, the generator to the sun wheel and the engine to the
planet carrier. Now assuming

Don't assume, as you don't know

snip drivel

I think that the new Prius has discarded the principle of having only
one of the motors effectively with fixed gearing by replacing the
silent belt drive to the differential and reduction gears with a pair
of V pulleys operating as a CVT, hence the description of the new model
as a CVT transmission.

Total balls, and what does our star say....

The new Lexus with the latest

The Lexus is a 4x4, not a 2wd as is the Prius.

snip drivel

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:40:38 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Not borne out by the abysmal sales in the UK.

A waiting list for it.

It's simply too expensive

Cheap for what it is and payback is quick.

and too slow for general use.

Outperforms BMW 5 series in acceleration.

Most paying 20,000 quid for a car

It is way under 20K, with a 1K grant as well.

want performance and style,

And they have it in spades. All the Hollywood glamour people have the
Prius.

snip drivel

"Capitol" wrote in message
...


Doctor Drivel wrote:

Much wrongness again. The petrol motor is one of two motors that
combine as
"one entity" to give the power/torque characteristics of one electric
motor.
There is no CVT/gearbox between only one of the motors and the wheels,
as
the two motors are as one.

You have big trouble grapsing this simple concept.


True, your grasp is not complete!
The gearbox is an epicyclic,

There is no gearbox. You refer to the power splitter

with 3 driven shafts and 3 motors. Two of which can function as
generators.
This produces a CVT transmission

It does not produce a CVT transmission at all. No more than an electric
motor on an EV is an electric CVT transmission. The power splitter presents
the two motors as one total motor that can deliver the power/torque to the
diff. THERE IS NO in-line CVT!!!!

An electric transmission is: a petrol motor genny - electric motor -
wheels. All in line. Ferdinad Porche stared out using this with two large
motors reaching 80mph in the 1900s.

CVT: petrol motor-CVT gearbox-wheels. All in-line

Prius:
petrol motor:-
:- wheels
electr motor:-

Note: no CVT

which is then geared down to road speed
with the chain reduction drive and differential gears.

The only variable aspect is the management system varying power splitter to
attain the output characteristics of one electric motor, which is presented
to the wheels.

(apparently, they only changed the epicyclic gear ratios on the later
Prius, although they relabeled it as CVT) The effect of using the
Atkinson cycle is to produce an ICE which will only operate
satisfactorily at certain rotational speeds, thus the electric motors
have to compensate for the engine shortcomings. The effect when you
drive the car hard, can be similar to the unwanted gearshifting of a
poor auto gearbox, with the torque applied at the wheels suddenly
changing when you don't want it to as the 3 power components don't quite
mesh perfectly!

Not my experience at all..

It is of interest to note, that the latest
Toyota eco car that I have
seen, has a diesel engine

Oh no!

and I believe a normal CVT transmission.

Oh no.

This gives 100mpg claimed!

With appalling performance, smelly , noisy, complex, high emissions, bla,
bla, bla. Give it a miss.

BTW, the Prius is longer then the Mk1 1 Avensis saloon, wider and higher,
with more interior space. The Avensis is not a small car by UK standards.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

Here you go again. Did we say the
prius has a "conventional" CVT


Yes.

No, you are still obviously not comprehending. It does not have a
conventional CVT gearbox. However it does have a gear system that allows
the drive ratio between engine and wheels to vary at will. Hence it is a
form of CVT.

No you are the one talking about torque ratios. I am talking about ratio
between wheel speed and engine speed.


Which is done by raising or lowering the power of the total of two power
sources. Get it? Just like squeezing the trigger on the power drill.

"Push harder on the throttle and the car goes faster" is what you seem
to be saying...

Yup ok, no problem going along with that.

You are the one who said that it
can accelerate while the engine note
remains constant.


It can, by increasing the power from the electric motor.

Increasing the speed certainly - power output would depend on load.

Do you comprehend that this implies the
engine speed is constant? If the engine speed is
constant and the wheel speed is increasing
then the drive ratio between them is changing.


You lack comprehension. The "total" power is from two power sources. The
engine can be constant speed and the electric motor spun up to turn the
wheels more. The management system can play about with speeds of the two
motors.

It can play about with the speed of the engine, remember the electric
motor is coupled to the wheel speed and needs to be at least
approximately what the driver is asking for.

For e.g., say the car is running at a constant 10mph. The elctric motor can
be running just by itself, then when the battery runs down the petrol motor
is brought in to assist. The battery runs down even further and the
electric motor runs down in speed an the petrol motor runs up in speed, yet
the car is still doing 10 mph.

How does the electric motor run down in speed if it is coupled to the
wheels through a fixed ratio and you are still doing 10mph?

The management system plays about with the
speeds of two motors to deliver the "total" power/torque" at the wheels.

at the wheels and the generator. Remember these are symbiotically
linked. By diverting greater angular velocity toward the generator, you
reduce that directed to the wheels. It is this ability to vary velocity
split that gives you the CV element of the transmission.

Focus clearly on angular velocity. There is one measurable at the output
of the engine. Another measurable at the wheels. The relationship
between them (i.e. the gearing) is not fixed.

This where you are confused. Because the combined motors deliver the
required power/torque at the wheels, which by default means torque rises and
lowers and the power is raised and lowered, you think there must by a CVT to
raise and lower the torque. No. Look at the above electic motor and
torque

No, I know there is a variable element in the final drive between engine
and wheels (but not motor and wheels), because the engine rotation speed
does not dictate the wheel rotation speed. The difference between motor
and engine speeds dictates the wheel rotation speed in combination with
the generator speed. By managing this difference you can control the
velocity ratio split between generator and wheels. Hence drive ratio
between engine and wheels.

Given that you accept the wheels can be driven by the engine, and their
speed does not have to remain constant for a constant engine speed, to
claim there is no variation in gearing going is plainly absurd.


NO variation in gearing. See above electic motor and torque. In effect
the power splitter makes the petrol motor and the elecric motor one motor,
with electric motor qualities of delivering power/torque, which means no
gearing or belts are required. Read that again and understand. It is the
key.

Why this fascination with belts? Do you understand the concept of
"gearing" need have nothing to do with belts? It is simply an expression
of a relationship of the input angular velocity to output (and an equal
but inverse relationship between input and output torque).

There is nothing potentially unreliabe about the Prius. It is the USAs 1st
or 2nd most reliable car.

Data source?

Image you mentioned. It has image!!!! Dustan Hoffman was the first in
California to drive out with anew Lexus hybrid

I can see the Lexus would appeal more in that market.

I don't agree. I have had two turbo diesels. They are not bad when being
gentle. Put your foot down and drink the fuel. I mean from near 40 mpg to
less than 20mpg. And I don't mean standing 0-60 standing starts, just
keeping up with the zippy traffic. Diesels are crap and always have been.

If TD's are so bad, why did you buy two?

It is foolish to even compare one to a Prius.

Back in the real world it will have to be compared to everything else on
the market in the price range.

reliable. All major makers are bringing out models based on the Prius.
Development is not finished on it yet.

I am sure it is not, hence the results will get better.

For example, I am not too worried about
running costs myself - I don't do particularly
high milages. Many people don't care about
emissions that much either.


Most don't. Most think their car is clean because it has a catalyst.

The addition of a catalyst does reduce noxious emissions greatly. It
does not reduce greenhouse gas emissions however. The prius has a
catalyist and still emits greenhouse gasses. From the "clean in town"
aspect it is noxious and particulate emissions that matter most. The
greenhouse gas emissions are not particularly directly harmful to people
- and will still end up in the general atmosphere even if you can move
production of them from one place to another.

"Normal performance" however sounds rather
uninspiring, I would expect much better from
a 20k car (not just power, but handling).


Handling is very good. The batteries distribute weight more evenly.
Performance? See Pauls post of acceleration vs BMW 5 series, it ****es all
over it.

Sorry that is nonsense. Paul's figures gave performance in "top gear" -
firstly not something you can select in a prius making the comparison
nonsensical, and secondly, not something you *would* select in a BMW if
you were after best acceleration.

BMWs have some of the best performing TDs there are. The 2L engine used
in the 320Cd develops 150bhp, and gives the car a top speed of 137mph
and a 0-60 of 8.8 seconds. That is significantly better than the prius.

The 3L model being discussed has a six cylinder engine that develops
218bhp and has 7.1 sec 0-60 performance figures. That puts it firmly in
the performance car category. It also has 410 Nm of torque. It could
probably tow a prius faster than it could accelerate on its own!

As I said, even if your figues were true
(and others cast doubt on these) that
is not significantly better than a TD.


They are better and have none of the awful smelliness and noise of diesels.
Diesels handle appallingly as the front end is far too heavy.

Ah, a famous generalisation...

Do you seriously expect that the prius would out handle a 3' series?

I can't go faster than 70mph and 100 is a speed I get to.

Why can it not go faster than 70?



A bag of olives please...


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
PC Paul wrote:
Point of Order.. I was quite careful to point out that they were
random figures pulled off the net...

Oh, everyone understood that but Evil. Quote any figures at him and
they're gospel if they agree with his warped views or rubbish when they
don't.

They were relevant and true figures that prove the Prius ****es over
all other cars.


Point taken ;-)

"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

Well it is a management system, and all cars have them.

No they don't

snip drivel


--

"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

drivel snipped

--

"PC Paul" wrote in message
.uk...
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
PC Paul wrote:
Point of Order.. I was quite careful to point out that they were
random figures pulled off the net...

Oh, everyone understood that but Evil. Quote any figures at him and
they're gospel if they agree with his warped views or rubbish when they
don't.

They were relevant and true figures that prove the Prius ****es over
all other cars.

Point taken ;-)

Of course.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Here you go again. Did we say the
prius has a "conventional" CVT


Yes.

No, you are still obviously not comprehending. It does not have a
conventional CVT gearbox. However it does have a gear system that allows
the drive ratio between engine and wheels to vary at will. Hence it is a
form of CVT.

You are still not there. A conventional CVT is in-line, raising and
lowering torque. This so called CV side is not raising and lower torque.
It, the power splitter, "combines" the power/torque of two motors to present
to the wheels, giving the characteristics of one electric motor.

Once again understand that. Do not write again until fully understood.

snip

Comparing pathetic diesel engine cars to the Prius is grossly silly. The
Prius is so infinitely superior in all aspects.