In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
There are 100,000s, maybe millions by now, of Mk2s around and it does
exactly what it says on the box, and even more. The user groups give a
teste of what it does.

100,000 total world wide sales, according to Toyota. Of course I expect
you think they've lied about that too.

--
*I got a sweater for Christmas. I really wanted a screamer or a moaner*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
I said "Toyota did invent it for this application".

So when

I said "Toyota did invent it for this application".

How can you 'invent' something that has been around for probably 100+
years? They may have found a new application for it, but that's a
different matter.

--
*The man who fell into an upholstery machine is fully recovered.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Hint. It's torque x revs.

You don't say........... What web site did you just get that off?

Two pies and tea.

Since you are such an expert in mechanics, explain the above statement.

--
*I took an IQ test and the results were negative.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:01:55 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:14:31 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:

Objective comments I would.

How do you know that it isn't objective?

read on...

But!!! Any test that say the Prius does 23mpg,
and not worth reading and the mag gets thrown
in the bin . never to be bought again.

It isn't reasonable to assess this
on the number of publications that
say one thing vs. the other.

Just do a Google never mind the numerous Prius user groups and forums,
and
no one gets remotely near 23mpg. All are around 50-65mpg.
The mag is clearly wrong and misleading. The mag is also full of
advertorials and patronise their advertisers.

That's bogus. As soon as I see a big discrepancy like that (2:1)
then clearly something is wrong.

On the one side you have the manufacturer and the sheep that espouse
the product because they bough the hype. On the other, you have the
nay-sayers who didn't but possibly have another axe to grind or
screwed up with their analysis or whatever.

If a mage was saying the mpg was 10% less than what the makers say, then you
take note. But when they say its only fraction, then the mag is called into
question, especially when independent mags and uses get near 3 times as
much.

I wouldn't make a decision on who
I believed based on shear weight of
numbers either way, but would weigh
up the information and look for
disinterested sources.

When only one say something ridiculous, it is the one which is at fault.

In that sense, Graham can be discounted because he is a purchaser of
the product but without any independent measurement resources.

Once one throws away the noise of
interested parties and the
incompetent and looks for the
competent and disinterested, it becomse
very easy to find the truth.

And a quite look around the web gives you it. And all they had to do was
ask me.

or didn't toe the party line?

Come again? You have Maggie on the brain.

Well..... I am not a fan of Maggie
any more than any other politician.

Don't porkie tell.

I would be a fan to the extent
that one could be clear on where she
stood on everything and in agreement
with more things than not, but I
don't follow slavishly.

You do.

However, whether you agreed with
her or not, there was never any doubt
about wher eshe stood on most issues.

Yep. The wrong stance.

From your perspective, not from mine.

From the mass poverty, 1000s living on the streets, which disgusted Mother
Theresa, the disappearance of British industry (the new Queen Mary had to be
built in France), etc.

This is no longer true for any
politician that I can see of any party,

Thank God.

That is actually a shame. There are
none now who have a clear stance.

If a clear stance means: mass poverty, 1000s living on the streets, which
disgusted Mother Theresa, the disappearance of British industry (the new
Queen Mary had to be built in France), etc, then we don't need clear
stances. Hitler had a clear stance.

and Herr Blurr is worse than
most in terms of telling you what you want to hear.

Best MP we have had in living memory.
Best government we have had in living
memory. That is obvious.

Not according to my definition.

But you are in Little Middle England. That is sad.

In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Objective comments I would. But!!! Any test that say the Prius does
23mpg, and not worth read and the mag gets thrown in the bin . never to
be bought again.

Ah - so you close what amounts to your reasoning when you read or hear
anything you don't like even when it's a fact?

Not that we didn't know this. It's in near all your posts on anything.

--
*A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Matt wrote:

Mr Clarkson had a seriously painful slipped disc and so decided to get
rid of his GT40 and replace it with a Prius. At 8am this morning the
Prius was traveling at 30 mph and then later when the traffic eased Mr
Clarkson's chauffeur put his foot down and they traveled at 60 mph.

Provide typical details of petrol engine rotational speeds, electric
"engine" rotational speeds, and road wheel rotational speeds for the
two situations detailed above.

30 mph 60 mph
Petrol Engine Speed
Electric "Engine" Speed
Road Wheel Speed


answers such as "x" "2x" "3x" etc are permitted


Still waiting Drivel. We need YOUR answer


--

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
this half-wit still believes lies from an third rate mag. Sad but
true.

Probably the most respected mag

Saying the Prius averages 23mpg And you respect that? You are fun.

That's what they got

They made it up to creep to advertisers. You are naive..and dumb.

snip babble

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
PC Paul wrote:
Hmm. Found on the web:

=========================
C&D Test Results:

Prius Top-gear acceleration
30-50 mph 5.5
50-70 mph 7.9

BMW 530I Top-gear acceleration
30-50 mph: 13.3
50-70 mph: 12.3
=========================

Not sure if it's right, haven't got time to go find the original. But it
adds interest to the debate.

But why would you stay in

The Prius ****es all over the others.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
And I ask again, how does it achieve this if not by altering gear
ratios?

See 50 other posts. Nah, don't bother you are too thick to understand.

But those posts

snip babble

Confirmed. too thick.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article s.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

That is about right. The Prius
can move when you floor it.

You consider

snip babble

I just looked at the real data. The facts. And the Prius ****es all over
the others.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

The problem is they not at al. The cars sells itself, with virtually no
advertising. There is a waiting list in every country it is sold, inc
UK

100,000s sales world wide.

Must be approaching millions by now. Will be many, many millions when the
USA and China are full up and running.

snip babble

You are drooling over one,...drooling...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

The Prius now has a conventional CVT.

Another one to preserve for all eternity.......



--

"Matt" wrote in message
...
Matt wrote:

snip drivel

Still waiting Drivel.

snip babble

Madness.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Objective comments I would. But!!! Any test that say the Prius does
23mpg, is not worth reading and the mag gets thrown in the bin. Never to
be bought again.

Ah - so you close

Very close.

snip babble

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
I said "Toyota did invent it for this application".

So when

I said "Toyota did invent it for this application".

How can you 'invent' something
that has been around for probably 100+
years?

It is just a part of the application they invented.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

There are 100,000s, maybe millions by now, of Mk2s around and it does
exactly what it says on the box, and even more. The user groups give a
teste of what it does.

100,000 total world wide sales,

...and rising super fast. They can't make enough of them.

snip babble

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
But!!! Any test that say the Prius does 23mpg,
and not worth read and the mag gets thrown in the bin . never to be bought
again.

It isn't reasonable to assess this on the number of publications that
say one thing vs. the other. The writers of articles for all of
them are open to question and in most spheres rely on information that
the manufacturer feeds them. This is certainly true in the IT world
and must be in the motor world as well because most writers for IT
magazines write for bike and car magazines the rest of their time.

Autocar of course quote the official fuel consumption but also what they
get for their tests. And they measure these things accurately - unlike
some.

Surely everyone knows the official results are rarely representative of
their actual MPG? Especially in large towns with traffic jams.

All they can be used for is a rough comparison.

--
*Go the extra mile. It makes your boss look like an incompetent slacker *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article s.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Just do a Google never mid the numerous Prius user groups and forums,
and you will no one gets anywhere remotely near 23mpg. All are around
50-65mpg. The mag is clearly wrong and misleading.

You really are thick. You quote some figure grabbed from the air for
*your* car which you only exists in your imagination and slag off a
respected mag.

Their touring figure for the Prius was 44 mpg. Not good, but not bad.

The 23 MPG was the average over the entire 1000 mile or so test. Included
testing to determine its true top speed and acceleration. All conducted
using runs in opposite directions to get a true and accurate result.

So truly poor for such a slow car.

You, of course, would just have believed what ever data the advertisers
fed you about performance and economy. An ad man's dream.

--
*Could it be that "I do " is the longest sentence? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
If a mage was saying the mpg was 10% less than what the makers say, then
you take note. But when they say its only fraction, then the mag is
called into question, especially when independent mags and uses get near
3 times as much.

The sort of rubbish mags you read or quote don't conduct their own
performance testing as it's an expensive procedure to do properly. It
can't be done on the public highway for obvious reasons, and hiring test
track facilities costs.

So they simply quote the maker's figures as their own. And if they don't
test the maximum performance, they'll not use so much fuel during their
test. Geddit yet? It's something a 10 year old would understand.

--
*Forget about World Peace...Visualize using your turn signal.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Doctor Drivel wrote:


It is clear initially you didn't have clue how this worked, now you have
looked and are getting there slowly. I know what a conventional CVT is and

Here you go again. Did we say the prius has a "conventional" CVT - No.
And yet here you go again arguing yet again that it does not have a
conventional CVT. Basically you are arguing with yourself.

what it does. It raises and lowers torque. I have continually told you

Now we have the classic befuddlements of units and terms. If it raises
and lowers torque, that torque must act against something. The something
in this case is the reaction to the cars acceleration. a constant torque
will applied (over and above losses) will result in acceleration.
Acceleration is the rate of change of velocity. Thus you have changing
velocity at a constant engine speed. This requires a variable ratio.

that. The Prius Continually Varies the power match between two parallel
power sources to present the correct total power at the wheels - this power
combining is further up the drivetrain line than any conventional CVT. You
kept on saying the ratios (torque) was being raised and lowered. That is

No you are the one talking about torque ratios. I am talking about ratio
between wheel speed and engine speed. You are the one who said that it
can accelerate while the engine note remains constant. Do you comprehend
that this implies the engine speed is constant? If the engine speed is
constant and the wheel speed is increasing then the drive ratio between
them is changing.

NOT the case for 50th time to you.

Just as wrong as the last 49 times alas.

All cars a have a "T" (transmission).


and it can "CV".


Only in varying power to produce a total power output, not varying torque up
and down as you appear to think.

Ah, now you have drifted from torque (i.e. force) to power (i.e. rate of
doing work). You seem muddled again.

Focus clearly on angular velocity. There is one measurable at the output
of the engine. Another measurable at the wheels. The relationship
between them (i.e. the gearing) is not fixed.

It is like a conversation that goes: "That is a tree", and some fool
repeats endlessly "I keep telling you it is not a pine tree, because the
leaves fall off each winter".


You are fool who keeps saying it varies torque. IT DOESN'T. You got it
wrong and will not admit it.

I don't actually believe that you think that. In fact I think you are
just arguiing because you enjoy it or it passes the time.

Given that you accept the wheels can be driven by the engine, and their
speed does not have to remain constant for a constant engine speed, to
claim there is no variation in gearing going is plainly absurd.

The electric motor is running at "all" times, somthing you don't seem to
grasp. The petrol motor assists to produce a total power output.

You actually mean "at all times when moving".

I fully appreciate this. It is coupled to the outer ring of the gear
cluster and is hence also coupled to the final stage drive train.

Also, and this may be the most important point of all, does it matter?

No not at all. Like most discussions
of this type the technical factors
are to all intents irrelevant to everyone
but the anoraks, and we/they
don't usually have final say in real life!


The average person is concerned with reliability and omits a potential
problem, a gearbox/CVT, he is far better off.

The first bit I agree with. The second is a technical detail again. If
the car as a whole acquires a good reputation for reliability then that
will influence how much a potential owner will want one. However if
acquires a poor reputation because it fails too often then to the
"average person" it is still broken or unreliable even if the anorak
points to it and says "but, but, but, the transmission is really nifty
and that works fine".

What it comes down to in my mind is a combination of:

1) and what image and desirability does the car have


Hollwood stars drive them to Oscars.

People who live in a fantacy world for a living?

However they also live in a town where vehicles such as the prius were
designed to perform at their best. Personally I am not convinced that is
having any major effect on sales in the UK where cars designed with US
markets in mind always sell poorly.

Also consider that you often refer to it being comparable to a camry.
One of the best selling cars Toyota have in the US which also sells like
a complete dog in the UK.

2) what is it like to drive and live with


Brilliant

I have not driven one, and so will not comment. However I observe that
many reviewers do not rate it favourably against the likely competition.
Perhaps you don't have enough experiance driving modern cars to
understand this. Things have come along way since 1966.

3) is the financial argument going to stack up in its favour


Totally. Very cheap to run, and when you take into account free parking
etc, brilliant.

Again, this will be very subjective. For example I anticipate that I
would find the argument far less compelling. I very rarly pay for
parking anywhere. If I do, it is in carparks that as far as I am aware
make no concessions for EVs or hybrids. The fuel economy is OK but not
stunning in comparison with a modern TD car. Compared to fuel prices the
road tax is negligble.

works, it's a step forward, it's interesting.

Works, yes. Step forward in terms
of ongoing development certainly,


It has made all other cars obsolete.

Time will tell.

but debatable in terms of the current end result.


End result is brilliant. Cheap to run and super low emissions with normal
performance, super quiet, super smooth.

For example, I am not too worried about running costs myself - I don't
do particularly high milages. Many people don't care about emissions
that much either. "Normal performance" however sounds rather
uninspiring, I would expect much better from a 20k car (not just power,
but handling).

Sorry they don't supply a
prostitute for you as well.

No need, I don't have to pay. Are they expensive anyway?

On a practical level it
seems as if does not currently
drive as well as a Turbo Diesel,


Seems? It outclasses any turbo diesel around. You must stop making things
up.

From your beloved Autocar:

"But before you start salivating at the prospect of tree stump-pulling
urge, be aware that the combined maximum torque of 335lb ft from both
power sources is only available below 22mph and maximum combined power
output is just 122bhp. So, although Toyota reckons performance should be
on a par with a 2.0-litre turbodiesel, on the road the Prius is left in
the shade, trotting to 60mph in a middling 11.9sec and barely managing
three figures flat out. Bursts of strong acceleration reveal the petrol
engine’s slightly uncouth nature, too, revs and noise rising markedly
just as in a CVT-equipped car.
Make the battleground an average British B-road and the gap between the
Prius and a conventional rival such as a Mondeo TDCi grows further,
blame lying squarely on the Toyota’s well-weighted, but feel-less,
electric steering and unexceptional front-end grip."

Note also it has the design flair of a bar of soap. Look at the raft
load of good looking cars it has to compete with in is size and price
ranges.


and does not do noticably better in economy.


Far better in economy. 50-65 mpg in a Camry sized car, and will get better
as time moves on.

As I said, even if your figues were true (and others cast doubt on
these) that is not significantly better than a TD.

Less complexity that a turbo diesel.

Again not relevant.

They performance is down on a TD,


Performance is better. You must stop making things up.

Well take any 2L TD and chances are it will have better 0-60, more
importantly much better mid range power, and a higher top end speed.
Also there is not plenty of choices of diesels that have top end road
holding.

and the handling uninspiring.


Handling is superb. You must stop making things up.

Quote:

"Whether it’s strong enough to persuade most buyers to pick the Toyota
over an Accord CDTi or any of the other highly talented and more
dynamically satisfying turbodiesel rivals remains to be seen. "

I don't see waiting lists for crap turbo diesels. Turbo diesel engines with

I don't see waiting lists for loaves of bread either. It does not mean
loads are sold. You are confusing lack of multi maker availability, and
low production quantities with high demand.

common rail injectors are more complex than petrol engines. They are a
waste of smelly, noisy time.

Personally I used to dislike diesels intently. Even I have to admis that
some modern examples are actually quite decent all round power units.
Personally I will stick to petrol though (sans batteries).


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

If a mag was saying the mpg was 10% less than what the makers say, then
you take note. But when they say its only fraction, then the mag is
called into question, especially when independent mags and uses get near
3 times as much.

The sort of

snip illogical babble

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
But!!! Any test that say the Prius does 23mpg,
and not worth read and the mag gets thrown in the bin . never to be
bought
again.

It isn't reasonable to assess this on the number of publications that
say one thing vs. the other. The writers of articles for all of
them are open to question and in most spheres rely on information that
the manufacturer feeds them. This is certainly true in the IT world
and must be in the motor world as well because most writers for IT
magazines write for bike and car magazines the rest of their time.

Autocar of course quote
the official fuel consumption

.....and then frig the test. No one remotely gets anywhere them in mpg.
Crooks the lot of them.

snip babbling rubbish

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article s.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Just do a Google never mid the numerous Prius user groups and forums,
and you will no one gets anywhere remotely near 23mpg. All are around
50-65mpg. The mag is clearly wrong and misleading.

You really are thick.

I repeat: "Just do a Google never mid the numerous Prius user groups and
forums, and you will no one gets anywhere remotely near 23mpg. All are
around 50-65mpg. The mag is clearly wrong and misleading."

snip babble

PC Paul wrote:

Hmm. Found on the web:

=========================
C&D Test Results:

Prius Top-gear acceleration
30-50 mph 5.5
50-70 mph 7.9

What is "top-gear" in the context of a CVT car? You have no control over
the gear used and the car will use whatever tricks are avialable to it
to get the best possible results.

BMW 530I Top-gear acceleration
30-50 mph: 13.3
50-70 mph: 12.3
=========================

Not really comparing like with like. If you wanted to overtake from 30
mph would you select 5th gear before hand? The prius obviously doesn't

(It does give you a usefull measure of the torque at low revs and the
flexibility of the engine (some would knock like crazy if you floored
them in 5th at that speed)).

Not sure if it's right, haven't got time to go find the original. But it
adds interest to the debate.

And what the hell 'Top Gear' is on a Prius....

Yes, indeed.

However if you take the 7.9s to be its best effort, then that is pretty
poor. That means overtaking a lorry on a B road doing 50, is going to
take you a good 20 secs in the wrong lane.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

It is clear initially you didn't have
clue how this worked, now you have
looked and are getting there slowly.
I know what a conventional CVT is and

Here you go again. Did we say the
prius has a "conventional" CVT

Yes. You also said after you realised there were no belts that ther was
still torque being raised and lowered.

what it does. It raises and lowers torque. I have continually told you

Now we have the classic befuddlements

Yes you are good at this...

of units and terms. If it raises and lowers
torque, that torque must act against
something. The something in this case
is the reaction to the cars acceleration.
a constant torque will applied (over and
above losses) will result in acceleration.
Acceleration is the rate of change of velocity.
Thus you have changing velocity at a constant
engine speed. This requires a variable ratio.

Once again , the variable ratio is raising or lowering torque in "series"
(normal CVTs), it is applying power/torque from two "parallel" power
sources. You can't see this.

that. The Prius Continually Varies the power match between two parallel
power sources to present the correct total power at the wheels - this
power
combining is further up the drivetrain line than any conventional CVT.
You
kept on saying the ratios (torque) was being raised and lowered. That
is

No you are the one talking about torque ratios. I am talking about ratio
between wheel speed and engine speed.

Which is done by raising or lowering the power of the total of two power
sources. Get it? Just like squeezing the trigger on the power drill.

You are the one who said that it
can accelerate while the engine note
remains constant.

It can, by increasing the power from the electric motor.

Do you comprehend that this implies the
engine speed is constant? If the engine speed is
constant and the wheel speed is increasing
then the drive ratio between them is changing.

You lack comprehension. The "total" power is from two power sources. The
engine can be constant speed and the electric motor spun up to turn the
wheels more. The management system can play about with speeds of the two
motors.

For e.g., say the car is running at a constant 10mph. The elctric motor can
be running just by itself, then when the battery runs down the petrol motor
is brought in to assist. The battery runs down even further and the
electric motor runs down in speed an the petrol motor runs up in speed, yet
the car is still doing 10 mph. The management system plays about with the
speeds of two motors to deliver the "total" power/torque" at the wheels.
It varies the ratios between the power of two motors to deliver.

All cars a have a "T" (transmission).

and it can "CV".


Only in varying power to produce a total power output, not varying
torque up
and down as you appear to think.

Ah, now you have drifted from torque (i.e. force) to power (i.e. rate of
doing work). You seem muddled again.

They are interrelated. Electric motors can deliver power and torque at the
wheels without gearboxes. IC engines cannot because of the torque/power
delivery, so a gearbox is used. The electric motor gives the performance of
an engine and gearbox combined. Keep that in mind.

Focus clearly on angular velocity. There is one measurable at the output
of the engine. Another measurable at the wheels. The relationship
between them (i.e. the gearing) is not fixed.

If a motor can deliver the power/torque of course it will vary the torque as
the motor is revved up and down. The equiv to revving up and engine and also
working through the gears.

This where you are confused. Because the combined motors deliver the
required power/torque at the wheels, which by default means torque rises and
lowers and the power is raised and lowered, you think there must by a CVT to
raise and lower the torque. No. Look at the above electic motor and
torque

Given that you accept the wheels can be driven by the engine, and their
speed does not have to remain constant for a constant engine speed, to
claim there is no variation in gearing going is plainly absurd.

NO variation in gearing. See above electic motor and torque. In effect
the power splitter makes the petrol motor and the elecric motor one motor,
with electric motor qualities of delivering power/torque, which means no
gearing or belts are required. Read that again and understand. It is the
key.

The electric motor is running at "all" times, somthing you don't seem to
grasp. The petrol motor assists to produce a total power output.

You actually mean "at all times when moving".

yep.

The average person is concerned
with reliability and omits a potential
problem, a gearbox/CVT, he is far better off.

The first bit I agree with. The second
is a technical detail again. If
the car as a whole acquires a good
reputation for reliability then that
will influence how much a potential
owner will want one. However if
acquires a poor reputation because
it fails too often then to the
"average person" it is still broken or
unreliable even if the anorak
points to it and says "but, but, but,
the transmission is really nifty
and that works fine".

There is nothing potentially unreliabe about the Prius. It is the USAs 1st
or 2nd most reliable car.

- It lacks a toublesome gearbox
- It gains an inverter which has no moving parts and service free.
- the starter motor is the driven motor
- still an engine, although tuned for high efficiency and longevity and
smaller.
- The generator is still there - no change
- a management system - all cars have them, just a bit larger.
- still a battey set, although larger and of superior design and build

What it comes down to in my mind is a combination of:

1) and what image and desirability does the car have


Hollwood stars drive them to Oscars.

People who live in a fantacy world for a living?

Image you mentioned. It has image!!!! Dustan Hoffman was the first in
California to drive out with anew Lexus hybrid

However they also live in a town
where vehicles such as the prius were
designed to perform at their best.

The Prius was designed to perform in all towns at its best. It doesn't
change when it goes into LA.

Personally I am not convinced that is
having any major effect on sales in
the UK where cars designed with US
markets in mind always sell poorly.

There is a waiting list in every country the world. It was designed
initially for Japan.

Also consider that you often refer
to it being comparable to a camry.
One of the best selling cars Toyota
have in the US which also sells like
a complete dog in the UK.

Not sold in the UK. The new Avensis is near to its size so it was dropped.
The Avensis is not sold in the USA.

2) what is it like to drive and live with

Brilliant

I have not driven one, and so
will not comment. However I observe that
many reviewers do not rate it favourably
against the likely competition.

I haven't read that. Most owners love them

Perhaps you don't have enough
experiance driving modern cars to
understand this. Things have come
along way since 1966.

I have always had a modern car as my main car. Toys in the garge is another
matter.

3) is the financial argument going to stack up in its favour

Totally. Very cheap to run, and when you take into account free parking
etc, brilliant.

Again, this will be very subjective.
For example I anticipate that I
would find the argument far less
compelling. I very rarly pay for
parking anywhere. If I do, it is in
carparks that as far as I am aware
make no concessions for EVs or
hybrids. The fuel economy is OK but not
stunning in comparison with a modern
TD car.

I don't agree. I have had two turbo diesels. They are not bad when being
gentle. Put your foot down and drink the fuel. I mean from near 40 mpg to
less than 20mpg. And I don't mean standing 0-60 standing starts, just
keeping up with the zippy traffic. Diesels are crap and always have been.
It is foolish to even compare one to a Prius.

Compared to fuel prices the
road tax is negligble.

works, it's a step forward, it's interesting.

Works, yes. Step forward in terms
of ongoing development certainly,

It has made all other cars obsolete.

Time will tell.

It has. The Toyota drivetrain, which has few parts, the subject of much
confusion here, made the hybrid highly feasible and potentyially far more
reliable. All major makers are bringing out models based on the Prius.
Development is not finished on it yet.

but debatable in terms of the current end result.

End result is brilliant. Cheap to run and
super low emissions with normal
performance, super quiet, super smooth.

For example, I am not too worried about
running costs myself - I don't do particularly
high milages. Many people don't care about
emissions that much either.

Most don't. Most think their car is clean because it has a catalyst.

"Normal performance" however sounds rather
uninspiring, I would expect much better from
a 20k car (not just power, but handling).

Handling is very good. The batteries distribute weight more evenly.
Performance? See Pauls post of acceleration vs BMW 5 series, it ****es all
over it.

Sorry they don't supply a
prostitute for you as well.

No need, I don't have to pay.
Are they expensive anyway?

On a practical level it
seems as if does not currently
drive as well as a Turbo Diesel,

Seems? It outclasses any turbo diesel
around. You must stop making things
up.

From your beloved Autocar:

Nope, from the lunatic fabvourite mag. At 23mpg from them, the reports is
crap.

Note also it has the design flair
of a bar of soap.

Many people stop and look and compliment the car.

Look at the raft load of good looking
cars it has to compete with in is size and price
ranges.

Still better looking. Quite futuristic in looks. A Mondeo? Please?

and does not do noticably better in economy.

Far better in economy. 50-65 mpg in
a Camry sized car, and will get better
as time moves on.

As I said, even if your figues were true
(and others cast doubt on these) that
is not significantly better than a TD.

They are better and have none of the awful smelliness and noise of diesels.
Diesels handle appallingly as the front end is far too heavy.

Less complexity that a turbo diesel.

Again not relevant.

Totally. Pay for anew turbo. Wow!

They performance is down on a TD,

Performance is better. You must
stop making things up.

Well take any 2L TD and chances
are it will have better 0-60,

0-60 is Meaningless.

more importantly much better
mid range power,

See Pauls Prius vs BMW.

and a higher top end speed.

I can't go faster than 70mph and 100 is a speed I get to.

Also there is not plenty of choices of
diesels that have top end road
holding.

Not that I know. And the nosie and smell too.

and the handling uninspiring.

Handling is superb. You must stop making things up.

Quote:

"Whether it's strong enough to persuade most buyers to pick the Toyota
over an Accord CDTi or any of the other highly talented and more
dynamically satisfying turbodiesel rivals remains to be seen. "

AutoLiar again. Take no notice.

I don't see waiting lists for crap turbo diesels.

I don't see waiting lists for loaves
of bread either.

I see them for a Prius.

It does not mean loads are sold.
You are confusing lack of multi maker availability, and
low production quantities with high demand.

A waiting list is a waiting list and they hope to drop the price when full
production come about and then start advertising the car. It has not been
advertised at all. It sells on merit.

common rail injectors are more
complex than petrol engines. They are a
waste of smelly, noisy time.

Personally I used to dislike diesels intently.

You should still do. A friend is an auto design engineer. He has recently
designed diesel fuel injection systems and says they are more complex than
petrol engines to get the same performance. He predicts low long term
depreciation in some models as replace parts will be expensive. They are
designing them to get better mph and petrol performance, which entails more
complexity. He said he would never buy one.

He thinks the Prius is brill.

Even I have to admis that
some modern examples are
actually quite decent all round power units.
Personally I will stick to petrol though
(sans batteries).

Go and test drive one.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
PC Paul wrote:

Hmm. Found on the web:

=========================
C&D Test Results:

Prius Top-gear acceleration
30-50 mph 5.5
50-70 mph 7.9

What is "top-gear" in the context of a CVT car?

The Prius hasn't got a CVT.

BMW 530I Top-gear acceleration
30-50 mph: 13.3
50-70 mph: 12.3
=========================

Not really comparing like with like.

He is. The Prius ****es all over the BMW.

0-60 and top speed are meaningless. It is the mid acceleration time that
matter and the Prius ****es all over the others.

Doctor Drivel wrote:
There is nothing potentially unreliabe about the Prius. It is the USAs 1st
or 2nd most reliable car.

Just achieves twice the failure rate of any normal vehicle of the same
size and 5x the problem rate of a Honda Civic hybrid!

Regards
Capitol

Doctor Drivel wrote:
- It lacks a toublesome gearbox

Replacement gearbox cost around £6000 fitted!

Regards
Capitol

"Capitol" wrote in message
...


Doctor Drivel wrote:
There is nothing potentially unreliabe about the Prius. It is the USAs
1st
or 2nd most reliable car.

Just achieves twice the failure rate of any normal vehicle of the same
size and 5x the problem rate of a Honda Civic hybrid!

Stop making things up.

Road & Track mag:
"You might expect hybrid cars to have serious reliability problems since
they use a new and relatively unproven technology involving a gasoline
engine, an electric motor, and a high-tech battery pack. But the hybrids
seem to be holding up well so far. The first-generation Toyota Prius was
among the most reliable in our survey, and the 2003 Civic Hybrid had
outstanding reliability; we don't have enough data on the Honda Insight
hybrid to predict reliability"

JD POWER:
"J.D. Power's annual Initial Quality Study said owners of a Lexus SC 430
reported 54 problems per 100 vehicles in the first 90 days of ownership.
(The average number of reported defects across the industry is 118 problems
per 100 cars.)
Other Toyota models scored high marks as well, coming in first in another 9
out of 18 model segments. The Prius (compact car), the Scion tC" (Sporty
Car) and Toyota RAV4 (Entry SUV) all placed first in their segment.

The Pirus came in first in reliablilty in its segment

You have to stop telling porkies........

"Capitol" wrote in message
...

Doctor Drivel wrote:

- It lacks a toublesome gearbox

Replacement gearbox cost around £6000 fitted!

A Prius does not have a gearbox to replace.

Stop telling Porkies.....

Doctor Drivel wrote:

- a management system - all cars have them, just a bit larger.

Complete with blue screen of death capability on an occasional basis!
Giving complete immobility wherever you happen to be.

- still a battey set, although larger.

So when you bend it, the emergency services leave you in it as it is
too dangerous for them to work on until the battery is disconnected!

Regards
Capitol

"Capitol" wrote in message
...


Doctor Drivel wrote:

- a management system - all cars have them, just a bit larger.

Complete with blue screen of death capability on an occasional basis!
Giving complete immobility wherever you happen to be.

Stop making things up.

- still a battey set, although larger.

So when you bend it, the emergency services leave you in it as it is
too dangerous for them to work on until the battery is disconnected!

Stop making things up.

In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
The mag is clearly wrong and misleading.


I repeat:

snip babble

If only you would.

--
*Stable Relationships Are For Horses.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article s.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Once again , the variable ratio is raising or lowering torque in "series"
(normal CVTs), it is applying power/torque from two "parallel" power
sources.

One of which, the motor, has fixed gearing, and the other, the engine, has
variable. Simple, really, no matter how you squirm.

You can't see this.

Everyone even vaguely following this thread sees the truth but you.

--
*Why is it considered necessary to screw down the lid of a coffin?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 17:38:23 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:




If a mage was saying the mpg was 10% less than what the makers say, then you
take note. But when they say its only fraction, then the mag is called into
question, especially when independent mags and uses get near 3 times as
much.

No, you look at bothe sets of tests and data in more detail.




I wouldn't make a decision on who
I believed based on shear weight of
numbers either way, but would weigh
up the information and look for
disinterested sources.

When only one say something ridiculous, it is the one which is at fault.

Not necessarily. One has to look at what tests were done and who did
them and where. I seriously doubt that most magazines have the
resources to do their own testing and simply rely on peer information
and that from the makers.





In that sense, Graham can be discounted because he is a purchaser of
the product but without any independent measurement resources.

Once one throws away the noise of
interested parties and the
incompetent and looks for the
competent and disinterested, it becomse
very easy to find the truth.

And a quite look around the web gives you it. And all they had to do was
ask me.

Well that would be a reliable source of course.


However, whether you agreed with
her or not, there was never any doubt
about wher eshe stood on most issues.

Yep. The wrong stance.

From your perspective, not from mine.

From the mass poverty, 1000s living on the streets,

There are still 1000s living on the streets. Have you looked around
the Waterloo and Kings Cross areas lately?

the disappearance of British industry (the new Queen Mary had to be
built in France), etc.

British industry as it was was disappearing anyway thanks to the
restrictive practices of the unions. Propping up the untenable never
works for very long and the drop when the inevitable happens then
hurts all the more.



This is no longer true for any
politician that I can see of any party,

Thank God.

That is actually a shame. There are
none now who have a clear stance.

If a clear stance means: mass poverty, 1000s living on the streets, which
disgusted Mother Theresa, the disappearance of British industry (the new
Queen Mary had to be built in France), etc, then we don't need clear
stances. Hitler had a clear stance.

A clear stance means a clear stance. Nobody said that you had to
agree with it.



and Herr Blurr is worse than
most in terms of telling you what you want to hear.

Best MP we have had in living memory.
Best government we have had in living
memory. That is obvious.

Not according to my definition.

But you are in Little Middle England. That is sad.

How's the one room council flat?



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
0-60 and top speed are meaningless. It is the mid acceleration time that
matter and the Prius ****es all over the others.

Since it's got a CVT, it's only fair to compare it with automatics. And
then it's a dog, performance wise. And only 23 mpg when driven hard?
Dreadful in this day and age.

--
*If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 19:02:50 +0100, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
But!!! Any test that say the Prius does 23mpg,
and not worth read and the mag gets thrown in the bin . never to be
bought
again.

It isn't reasonable to assess this on the number of publications that
say one thing vs. the other. The writers of articles for all of
them are open to question and in most spheres rely on information that
the manufacturer feeds them. This is certainly true in the IT world
and must be in the motor world as well because most writers for IT
magazines write for bike and car magazines the rest of their time.

Autocar of course quote
the official fuel consumption

....and then frig the test. No one remotely gets anywhere them in mpg.
Crooks the lot of them.

What could possibly be their motivation to do that? Do you imagine
that they are being paid by Nissan or Honda or something?



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ws.net,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"J.D. Power's annual Initial Quality Study said owners of a Lexus SC 430
reported 54 problems per 100 vehicles in the first 90 days of ownership.
(The average number of reported defects across the industry is 118
problems per 100 cars.) Other Toyota models scored high marks as well,
coming in first in another 9 out of 18 model segments. The Prius
(compact car), the Scion tC" (Sporty Car) and Toyota RAV4 (Entry SUV)
all placed first in their segment.

What do a load of assorted IC engined cars have to do with this?

The Pirus came in first in reliablilty in its segment

1st out of one. Brilliant result.

--
*Why do we say something is out of whack? What is a whack? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
I seriously doubt that most magazines have the
resources to do their own testing and simply rely on peer information
and that from the makers.

Autocar do performance testing at MIRA and have all the latest test
equipment. It's an expensive business and many others don't bother simply
relying on maker's data.

--
*Women like silent men; they think they're listening.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Hall wrote:
I seriously doubt that most magazines have the
resources to do their own testing and simply rely on peer information
and that from the makers.

Autocar

snip garbage about a third rate mag