"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

It is clear initially you didn't have
clue how this worked, now you have
looked and are getting there slowly.
I know what a conventional CVT is and

Here you go again. Did we say the
prius has a "conventional" CVT

Yes. You also said after you realised there were no belts that ther was
still torque being raised and lowered.

what it does. It raises and lowers torque. I have continually told you

Now we have the classic befuddlements

Yes you are good at this...

of units and terms. If it raises and lowers
torque, that torque must act against
something. The something in this case
is the reaction to the cars acceleration.
a constant torque will applied (over and
above losses) will result in acceleration.
Acceleration is the rate of change of velocity.
Thus you have changing velocity at a constant
engine speed. This requires a variable ratio.

Once again , the variable ratio is raising or lowering torque in "series"
(normal CVTs), it is applying power/torque from two "parallel" power
sources. You can't see this.

that. The Prius Continually Varies the power match between two parallel
power sources to present the correct total power at the wheels - this
power
combining is further up the drivetrain line than any conventional CVT.
You
kept on saying the ratios (torque) was being raised and lowered. That
is

No you are the one talking about torque ratios. I am talking about ratio
between wheel speed and engine speed.

Which is done by raising or lowering the power of the total of two power
sources. Get it? Just like squeezing the trigger on the power drill.

You are the one who said that it
can accelerate while the engine note
remains constant.

It can, by increasing the power from the electric motor.

Do you comprehend that this implies the
engine speed is constant? If the engine speed is
constant and the wheel speed is increasing
then the drive ratio between them is changing.

You lack comprehension. The "total" power is from two power sources. The
engine can be constant speed and the electric motor spun up to turn the
wheels more. The management system can play about with speeds of the two
motors.

For e.g., say the car is running at a constant 10mph. The elctric motor can
be running just by itself, then when the battery runs down the petrol motor
is brought in to assist. The battery runs down even further and the
electric motor runs down in speed an the petrol motor runs up in speed, yet
the car is still doing 10 mph. The management system plays about with the
speeds of two motors to deliver the "total" power/torque" at the wheels.
It varies the ratios between the power of two motors to deliver.

All cars a have a "T" (transmission).

and it can "CV".


Only in varying power to produce a total power output, not varying
torque up
and down as you appear to think.

Ah, now you have drifted from torque (i.e. force) to power (i.e. rate of
doing work). You seem muddled again.

They are interrelated. Electric motors can deliver power and torque at the
wheels without gearboxes. IC engines cannot because of the torque/power
delivery, so a gearbox is used. The electric motor gives the performance of
an engine and gearbox combined. Keep that in mind.

Focus clearly on angular velocity. There is one measurable at the output
of the engine. Another measurable at the wheels. The relationship
between them (i.e. the gearing) is not fixed.

If a motor can deliver the power/torque of course it will vary the torque as
the motor is revved up and down. The equiv to revving up and engine and also
working through the gears.

This where you are confused. Because the combined motors deliver the
required power/torque at the wheels, which by default means torque rises and
lowers and the power is raised and lowered, you think there must by a CVT to
raise and lower the torque. No. Look at the above electic motor and
torque

Given that you accept the wheels can be driven by the engine, and their
speed does not have to remain constant for a constant engine speed, to
claim there is no variation in gearing going is plainly absurd.

NO variation in gearing. See above electic motor and torque. In effect
the power splitter makes the petrol motor and the elecric motor one motor,
with electric motor qualities of delivering power/torque, which means no
gearing or belts are required. Read that again and understand. It is the
key.

The electric motor is running at "all" times, somthing you don't seem to
grasp. The petrol motor assists to produce a total power output.

You actually mean "at all times when moving".

yep.

The average person is concerned
with reliability and omits a potential
problem, a gearbox/CVT, he is far better off.

The first bit I agree with. The second
is a technical detail again. If
the car as a whole acquires a good
reputation for reliability then that
will influence how much a potential
owner will want one. However if
acquires a poor reputation because
it fails too often then to the
"average person" it is still broken or
unreliable even if the anorak
points to it and says "but, but, but,
the transmission is really nifty
and that works fine".

There is nothing potentially unreliabe about the Prius. It is the USAs 1st
or 2nd most reliable car.

- It lacks a toublesome gearbox
- It gains an inverter which has no moving parts and service free.
- the starter motor is the driven motor
- still an engine, although tuned for high efficiency and longevity and
smaller.
- The generator is still there - no change
- a management system - all cars have them, just a bit larger.
- still a battey set, although larger and of superior design and build

What it comes down to in my mind is a combination of:

1) and what image and desirability does the car have


Hollwood stars drive them to Oscars.

People who live in a fantacy world for a living?

Image you mentioned. It has image!!!! Dustan Hoffman was the first in
California to drive out with anew Lexus hybrid

However they also live in a town
where vehicles such as the prius were
designed to perform at their best.

The Prius was designed to perform in all towns at its best. It doesn't
change when it goes into LA.

Personally I am not convinced that is
having any major effect on sales in
the UK where cars designed with US
markets in mind always sell poorly.

There is a waiting list in every country the world. It was designed
initially for Japan.

Also consider that you often refer
to it being comparable to a camry.
One of the best selling cars Toyota
have in the US which also sells like
a complete dog in the UK.

Not sold in the UK. The new Avensis is near to its size so it was dropped.
The Avensis is not sold in the USA.

2) what is it like to drive and live with

Brilliant

I have not driven one, and so
will not comment. However I observe that
many reviewers do not rate it favourably
against the likely competition.

I haven't read that. Most owners love them

Perhaps you don't have enough
experiance driving modern cars to
understand this. Things have come
along way since 1966.

I have always had a modern car as my main car. Toys in the garge is another
matter.

3) is the financial argument going to stack up in its favour

Totally. Very cheap to run, and when you take into account free parking
etc, brilliant.

Again, this will be very subjective.
For example I anticipate that I
would find the argument far less
compelling. I very rarly pay for
parking anywhere. If I do, it is in
carparks that as far as I am aware
make no concessions for EVs or
hybrids. The fuel economy is OK but not
stunning in comparison with a modern
TD car.

I don't agree. I have had two turbo diesels. They are not bad when being
gentle. Put your foot down and drink the fuel. I mean from near 40 mpg to
less than 20mpg. And I don't mean standing 0-60 standing starts, just
keeping up with the zippy traffic. Diesels are crap and always have been.
It is foolish to even compare one to a Prius.

Compared to fuel prices the
road tax is negligble.

works, it's a step forward, it's interesting.

Works, yes. Step forward in terms
of ongoing development certainly,

It has made all other cars obsolete.

Time will tell.

It has. The Toyota drivetrain, which has few parts, the subject of much
confusion here, made the hybrid highly feasible and potentyially far more
reliable. All major makers are bringing out models based on the Prius.
Development is not finished on it yet.

but debatable in terms of the current end result.

End result is brilliant. Cheap to run and
super low emissions with normal
performance, super quiet, super smooth.

For example, I am not too worried about
running costs myself - I don't do particularly
high milages. Many people don't care about
emissions that much either.

Most don't. Most think their car is clean because it has a catalyst.

"Normal performance" however sounds rather
uninspiring, I would expect much better from
a 20k car (not just power, but handling).

Handling is very good. The batteries distribute weight more evenly.
Performance? See Pauls post of acceleration vs BMW 5 series, it ****es all
over it.

Sorry they don't supply a
prostitute for you as well.

No need, I don't have to pay.
Are they expensive anyway?

On a practical level it
seems as if does not currently
drive as well as a Turbo Diesel,

Seems? It outclasses any turbo diesel
around. You must stop making things
up.

From your beloved Autocar:

Nope, from the lunatic fabvourite mag. At 23mpg from them, the reports is
crap.

Note also it has the design flair
of a bar of soap.

Many people stop and look and compliment the car.

Look at the raft load of good looking
cars it has to compete with in is size and price
ranges.

Still better looking. Quite futuristic in looks. A Mondeo? Please?

and does not do noticably better in economy.

Far better in economy. 50-65 mpg in
a Camry sized car, and will get better
as time moves on.

As I said, even if your figues were true
(and others cast doubt on these) that
is not significantly better than a TD.

They are better and have none of the awful smelliness and noise of diesels.
Diesels handle appallingly as the front end is far too heavy.

Less complexity that a turbo diesel.

Again not relevant.

Totally. Pay for anew turbo. Wow!

They performance is down on a TD,

Performance is better. You must
stop making things up.

Well take any 2L TD and chances
are it will have better 0-60,

0-60 is Meaningless.

more importantly much better
mid range power,

See Pauls Prius vs BMW.

and a higher top end speed.

I can't go faster than 70mph and 100 is a speed I get to.

Also there is not plenty of choices of
diesels that have top end road
holding.

Not that I know. And the nosie and smell too.

and the handling uninspiring.

Handling is superb. You must stop making things up.

Quote:

"Whether it's strong enough to persuade most buyers to pick the Toyota
over an Accord CDTi or any of the other highly talented and more
dynamically satisfying turbodiesel rivals remains to be seen. "

AutoLiar again. Take no notice.

I don't see waiting lists for crap turbo diesels.

I don't see waiting lists for loaves
of bread either.

I see them for a Prius.

It does not mean loads are sold.
You are confusing lack of multi maker availability, and
low production quantities with high demand.

A waiting list is a waiting list and they hope to drop the price when full
production come about and then start advertising the car. It has not been
advertised at all. It sells on merit.

common rail injectors are more
complex than petrol engines. They are a
waste of smelly, noisy time.

Personally I used to dislike diesels intently.

You should still do. A friend is an auto design engineer. He has recently
designed diesel fuel injection systems and says they are more complex than
petrol engines to get the same performance. He predicts low long term
depreciation in some models as replace parts will be expensive. They are
designing them to get better mph and petrol performance, which entails more
complexity. He said he would never buy one.

He thinks the Prius is brill.

Even I have to admis that
some modern examples are
actually quite decent all round power units.
Personally I will stick to petrol though
(sans batteries).

Go and test drive one.