"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 09:12:50 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 23:48:44 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
m...
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 21:36:24 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


And I question whether you really know what evidence is being
tampered
with. The data and other evidence that's tossed around about
anthropogenic warming is a propagandist's dream. It's too
complex,
and
too easy to obscure, for anyone but an expert to unravel.

Actually the atmospheric energy transport mechanisms are rather
basic
and simple, relative to some of the other thermodynamics we had to
learn.

Climatology is not an exercise in deterministic physics, as you
certainly know.

We student chemists learned about energy transfer in gases
first because it is so much easier to understand there than in
liquids
or solids.

Liquids -- the oceans -- are highly involved in climate.


Climate is extensively very complex but not so difficult
intensively,
at least if you have a good background in physics and chemistry.
The
original "climate scientists" were professional astronomers
investigating the atmospheres of Venus and Mars.

One of the labs in college had a large apparatus set up to measure
the
properties of suspected greenhouse and ozone depleting gases at
the
low concentrations of the upper atmosphere. I spent a summer
operating
and analyzing data from an infrared spectrophotometer, so I became
pretty familiar with the process and the quantum mechanical
interpretation of the squiggles on the spectra.

The real problem is collecting sufficient accurate data from
places
we
don't have continuous easy access to, such as the lower atmosphere
over oceans or the Brazilian rain forest.

The real problem is that the system is fundamentally chaotic. The
models are based on probability-density functions.


"You guys can pluck out some physical phenomenon and debate about
which
way the photons are going, or argue over the methodologies of
measuring temperature, but no one here has any idea how the whole
puzzle fits together."

Those arguments are basic to the dispute over how to collect and
interpret the data.

Yes, and that makes up at least half of the bull**** about climate
propagated on this newsgroup. The other half is about isolating
transport mechanisms as if climate occurred in a bell jar.

You've only shown how little your own opinions
mean.

I have no opinions about the science, except that the real
scientists
are vastly more likely to know what they're talking about than
anyone
here. At around 20:1 agreement, they're the safer bet.

--
Ed Huntress



--jsw

Okay, I get that you are annoyed by attacks on your sacred cow that
you lack the scientific education to directly respond to.

You never know, Jim. Despite the fact that isolating and compoudning
deterministic phenomena for explaining climate was abandoned in the
1950s, you may yet, through application of high-altitude quantum
mechanics and data-gathering, be the first one to solve the problem
with deterministic physics that you learned during your internships.

--
Ed Huntress

Where did you find your crazy antiquated misconceptions about science?
Physics and chemistry abandoned determinism when quantum mechanics
explained experimental results that "classical" theory couldn't, in
the early 1900's.

We pretend that things are simpler when we can, but this is the
statistical way we model them when necessary:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...kintem.html#c3
"Statistical methods become a more precise way to study nature when
the number of particles is large."

Scroll down to Maxwell Speed Distribution of individual molecules in a
gas sample. Speed correlates to energy and temperature.

Even a field so seemingly deterministic as electronic communications
theory includes entropy in its calculations.
http://www.mp3-tech.org/programmer/d...e335_id073.pdf
"entropy" is in the first sentence, "random process with a laplacian
probability density function" in the second.

Chemists learn to make -one- measurement correctly, using statistical
methods only to find and eliminate the source of random or systemic
errors. You only get one piece of the Shroud of Turin or one tooth
from the Denisova Cave (or one urine sample from the winning horse) to
analyze, and may have to defend the accuracy of your methods in
court..

--jsw

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 13:20:41 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 09:12:50 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
news On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 23:48:44 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
om...
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 21:36:24 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


And I question whether you really know what evidence is being
tampered
with. The data and other evidence that's tossed around about
anthropogenic warming is a propagandist's dream. It's too
complex,
and
too easy to obscure, for anyone but an expert to unravel.

Actually the atmospheric energy transport mechanisms are rather
basic
and simple, relative to some of the other thermodynamics we had to
learn.

Climatology is not an exercise in deterministic physics, as you
certainly know.

We student chemists learned about energy transfer in gases
first because it is so much easier to understand there than in
liquids
or solids.

Liquids -- the oceans -- are highly involved in climate.


Climate is extensively very complex but not so difficult
intensively,
at least if you have a good background in physics and chemistry.
The
original "climate scientists" were professional astronomers
investigating the atmospheres of Venus and Mars.

One of the labs in college had a large apparatus set up to measure
the
properties of suspected greenhouse and ozone depleting gases at
the
low concentrations of the upper atmosphere. I spent a summer
operating
and analyzing data from an infrared spectrophotometer, so I became
pretty familiar with the process and the quantum mechanical
interpretation of the squiggles on the spectra.

The real problem is collecting sufficient accurate data from
places
we
don't have continuous easy access to, such as the lower atmosphere
over oceans or the Brazilian rain forest.

The real problem is that the system is fundamentally chaotic. The
models are based on probability-density functions.


"You guys can pluck out some physical phenomenon and debate about
which
way the photons are going, or argue over the methodologies of
measuring temperature, but no one here has any idea how the whole
puzzle fits together."

Those arguments are basic to the dispute over how to collect and
interpret the data.

Yes, and that makes up at least half of the bull**** about climate
propagated on this newsgroup. The other half is about isolating
transport mechanisms as if climate occurred in a bell jar.

You've only shown how little your own opinions
mean.

I have no opinions about the science, except that the real
scientists
are vastly more likely to know what they're talking about than
anyone
here. At around 20:1 agreement, they're the safer bet.

--
Ed Huntress



--jsw

Okay, I get that you are annoyed by attacks on your sacred cow that
you lack the scientific education to directly respond to.

You never know, Jim. Despite the fact that isolating and compoudning
deterministic phenomena for explaining climate was abandoned in the
1950s, you may yet, through application of high-altitude quantum
mechanics and data-gathering, be the first one to solve the problem
with deterministic physics that you learned during your internships.

--
Ed Huntress

Where did you find your crazy antiquated misconceptions about science?
Physics and chemistry abandoned determinism when quantum mechanics
explained experimental results that "classical" theory couldn't, in
the early 1900's.

Ah, Jim, that was tongue-in-cheek. I said that the system is chaotic
and that the models are based on probability-density functions.
Meantime, you're telling us about emissions at specific altitudes and
transfer mechanisms, and about the need for specific data, so I'm
making a joke that maybe you're trying to solve the climatology
problem by adding up all of these deterministic bits and pieces.


We pretend that things are simpler when we can, but this is the
statistical way we model them when necessary:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...kintem.html#c3
"Statistical methods become a more precise way to study nature when
the number of particles is large."

Right.


Scroll down to Maxwell Speed Distribution of individual molecules in a
gas sample. Speed correlates to energy and temperature.

Thanks, I'm well aware of it.


Even a field so seemingly deterministic as electronic communications
theory includes entropy in its calculations.
http://www.mp3-tech.org/programmer/d...e335_id073.pdf
"entropy" is in the first sentence, "random process with a laplacian
probability density function" in the second.

Yup.


Chemists learn to make -one- measurement correctly, using statistical
methods only to find and eliminate the source of random or systemic
errors. You only get one piece of the Shroud of Turin or one tooth
from the Denisova Cave (or one urine sample from the winning horse) to
analyze, and may have to defend the accuracy of your methods in
court..

But we aren't doing chemistry. We're doing climatology. Or, more
accurately, we're demonstrating why you and I can't do it. And neither
can anyone here on this NG, although a few pretend to themselves that
they can.

You see, they read a book...

--
Ed Huntress


--jsw

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 19:25:29 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
It looks to me like we have more than ever before. I'm not
complaining
about it.

--
Ed Huntress


--jsw

You AGW believers collectively. This is what the experts know you
should be doing to reduce your personal carbon footprint:
http://cotap.org/reduce-carbon-footprint/
They forgot about hanging laundry outdoors, the heater in an electric
dryer is a huge unnecessary waste.

Since you have a lathe you can convert round trash barrels ($12 at HD)
into inexpensive rain barrels ($100 at HD) and avoid watering your
lawn with treated drinking water by threading the barbed end of a hose
coupler and mounting it in the lower side wall, with an O ring on the
outside and the appropriate stainless nut and washer on the inside.
Landscaping fabric over hardware cloth across the top will keep out
gutter debris and mosquitos.

During the winter I store chainsaw chips and chopped-up tree branches
from the yard in the barrels, to use as kindling.

Pressing on and clamping a short piece of hose onto the barbs inside
might be enough to make the watertight seal, but the inside bottom of
the barrel is a difficult place to apply much force.

My carbon footprint went down in 1971, when I grokked Earth Day for
the first time.

I replaced my front lawn with chips and plantings of shrubs and
flowers with a single drip irrigation system for the entire 1/3 acre
of my land.

All but one of my light bulbs (75w pump house warmth) is either CFL or
LED. My electric bill is $40/mo, and I have a new timer for the
electric water heater. Once I get the new solar panels installed,
I'll also have a 24v 900w element going into that water heater,
replacing one of the two 240vac energy suckers. The timer will come
on for one hour, if necessary, each day before I get up. I'm not
going to feed the grid because that means I'd have to get a net meter.


My sister has a rain barrel diverter for me to pick up. So far, it's
legal to catch my rain in Oregon, unlike Colorado. That just floors
me, that you're fined for NOT allowing runoff in CO!

I fill 1/3 of a 13gal tall kitchen trash bag each week and recycle the
rest. All paper, cardboard, plastic, cans, and bottles are recycled.

Old Weird Ed probably has a carbon footprint the size of Algore's, but
I doubt he has the stock options in all the carbon control companies
Algore has.

This weather station distribution map is telling, too. I believe
Hansen, et al, had something to do with their removal, too.
http://climateaudit.org/2008/02/10/h...-distribution/
Amazingly (wink, wink) with fewer stations reporting and only the
hotter stations being included in the dataset, Earth is warming!

ohmigodwereallgonnadie...

--
Our main business is not to see what lies dimly at
a distance but to do what lies clearly at hand.
--Thomas Carlyle

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 00:09:44 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

Climate is extensively very complex but not so difficult
intensively, at least if you have a good background in physics and
chemistry.

This is a good short summary in simple English of the physics behind
radiative heat transport:
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_constant

The odd-looking v is the Greek letter nu.

Ed argues that we can't have a say in it, only the Bleever Scientists
can say anything. Everyone else begs to differ. We may not have the
scientific savvy to grok it -all-, but we can certainly detect all the
bull**** when it stinks up the environment the Bleevers blithely
pretend to protect. Hey, here's an idea: Let's ask them nicely to not
use up any more of our precious oxygen, as they're a waste of it.

Ed doesn't even grok the importance of the discovery of the email lies
and data tampering at East Anglia, fer crikey's sake.
http://tinyurl.com/yk3uvgn

--
Our main business is not to see what lies dimly at
a distance but to do what lies clearly at hand.
--Thomas Carlyle

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 12:51:48 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 19:25:29 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
. ..
It looks to me like we have more than ever before. I'm not
complaining
about it.

--
Ed Huntress


--jsw

You AGW believers collectively. This is what the experts know you
should be doing to reduce your personal carbon footprint:
http://cotap.org/reduce-carbon-footprint/
They forgot about hanging laundry outdoors, the heater in an electric
dryer is a huge unnecessary waste.

Since you have a lathe you can convert round trash barrels ($12 at HD)
into inexpensive rain barrels ($100 at HD) and avoid watering your
lawn with treated drinking water by threading the barbed end of a hose
coupler and mounting it in the lower side wall, with an O ring on the
outside and the appropriate stainless nut and washer on the inside.
Landscaping fabric over hardware cloth across the top will keep out
gutter debris and mosquitos.

During the winter I store chainsaw chips and chopped-up tree branches
from the yard in the barrels, to use as kindling.

Pressing on and clamping a short piece of hose onto the barbs inside
might be enough to make the watertight seal, but the inside bottom of
the barrel is a difficult place to apply much force.

My carbon footprint went down in 1971, when I grokked Earth Day for
the first time.

I replaced my front lawn with chips and plantings of shrubs and
flowers with a single drip irrigation system for the entire 1/3 acre
of my land.

All but one of my light bulbs (75w pump house warmth) is either CFL or
LED. My electric bill is $40/mo, and I have a new timer for the
electric water heater. Once I get the new solar panels installed,
I'll also have a 24v 900w element going into that water heater,
replacing one of the two 240vac energy suckers. The timer will come
on for one hour, if necessary, each day before I get up. I'm not
going to feed the grid because that means I'd have to get a net meter.


My sister has a rain barrel diverter for me to pick up. So far, it's
legal to catch my rain in Oregon, unlike Colorado. That just floors
me, that you're fined for NOT allowing runoff in CO!

I fill 1/3 of a 13gal tall kitchen trash bag each week and recycle the
rest. All paper, cardboard, plastic, cans, and bottles are recycled.

Old Weird Ed probably has a carbon footprint the size of Algore's, but
I doubt he has the stock options in all the carbon control companies
Algore has.

This weather station distribution map is telling, too. I believe
Hansen, et al, had something to do with their removal, too.
http://climateaudit.org/2008/02/10/h...-distribution/
Amazingly (wink, wink) with fewer stations reporting and only the
hotter stations being included in the dataset, Earth is warming!

ohmigodwereallgonnadie...

I paved my front yard with recycled garbage-can lids and we run bath
water into our kitchen sink. I ride a bicyle 30 miles every day, and
my wife makes our clothes from dryer lint, to make up for the clothes
dryer.

Dinner tonight is fried squirrel from the back yard, and composted
tomato plants from last summer. After dark, I'm going out to gig some
spring peepers for tomorrow night's dinner. We eat one meal a day.

--
Ed Huntress

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 13:05:23 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 00:09:44 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

Climate is extensively very complex but not so difficult
intensively, at least if you have a good background in physics and
chemistry.

This is a good short summary in simple English of the physics behind
radiative heat transport:
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_constant

The odd-looking v is the Greek letter nu.

Ed argues that we can't have a say in it, only the Bleever Scientists
can say anything. Everyone else begs to differ. We may not have the
scientific savvy to grok it -all-, but we can certainly detect all the
bull**** when it stinks up the environment the Bleevers blithely
pretend to protect. Hey, here's an idea: Let's ask them nicely to not
use up any more of our precious oxygen, as they're a waste of it.

Ed doesn't even grok the importance of the discovery of the email lies
and data tampering at East Anglia, fer crikey's sake.
http://tinyurl.com/yk3uvgn

You are completely full of ****, Larry. But you knew that.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 12:51:48 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 19:25:29 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
It looks to me like we have more than ever before. I'm not
complaining
about it.

--
Ed Huntress


--jsw

You AGW believers collectively. This is what the experts know you
should be doing to reduce your personal carbon footprint:
http://cotap.org/reduce-carbon-footprint/
They forgot about hanging laundry outdoors, the heater in an
electric
dryer is a huge unnecessary waste.

Since you have a lathe you can convert round trash barrels ($12 at
HD)
into inexpensive rain barrels ($100 at HD) and avoid watering your
lawn with treated drinking water by threading the barbed end of a
hose
coupler and mounting it in the lower side wall, with an O ring on
the
outside and the appropriate stainless nut and washer on the inside.
Landscaping fabric over hardware cloth across the top will keep out
gutter debris and mosquitos.

During the winter I store chainsaw chips and chopped-up tree
branches
from the yard in the barrels, to use as kindling.

Pressing on and clamping a short piece of hose onto the barbs
inside
might be enough to make the watertight seal, but the inside bottom
of
the barrel is a difficult place to apply much force.

My carbon footprint went down in 1971, when I grokked Earth Day for
the first time.

I replaced my front lawn with chips and plantings of shrubs and
flowers with a single drip irrigation system for the entire 1/3 acre
of my land.

All but one of my light bulbs (75w pump house warmth) is either CFL
or
LED. My electric bill is $40/mo, and I have a new timer for the
electric water heater. Once I get the new solar panels installed,
I'll also have a 24v 900w element going into that water heater,
replacing one of the two 240vac energy suckers. The timer will come
on for one hour, if necessary, each day before I get up. I'm not
going to feed the grid because that means I'd have to get a net
meter.


My sister has a rain barrel diverter for me to pick up. So far,
it's
legal to catch my rain in Oregon, unlike Colorado. That just floors
me, that you're fined for NOT allowing runoff in CO!

I fill 1/3 of a 13gal tall kitchen trash bag each week and recycle
the
rest. All paper, cardboard, plastic, cans, and bottles are
recycled.

Old Weird Ed probably has a carbon footprint the size of Algore's,
but
I doubt he has the stock options in all the carbon control companies
Algore has.

This weather station distribution map is telling, too. I believe
Hansen, et al, had something to do with their removal, too.
http://climateaudit.org/2008/02/10/h...-distribution/
Amazingly (wink, wink) with fewer stations reporting and only the
hotter stations being included in the dataset, Earth is warming!

ohmigodwereallgonnadie...

I paved my front yard with recycled garbage-can lids and we run bath
water into our kitchen sink. I ride a bicyle 30 miles every day, and
my wife makes our clothes from dryer lint, to make up for the
clothes
dryer.

Dinner tonight is fried squirrel from the back yard, and composted
tomato plants from last summer. After dark, I'm going out to gig
some
spring peepers for tomorrow night's dinner. We eat one meal a day.

--
Ed Huntress

When stuffed Garfields were the craze I lashed together a small
Native-American-style hide stretching frame holding a Garfield skin
and hung it in my vehicle. Soon after that I stopped seeing them.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 19:25:29 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


All but one of my light bulbs (75w pump house warmth) is either CFL
or
LED. My electric bill is $40/mo, and I have a new timer for the
electric water heater. Once I get the new solar panels installed,
I'll also have a 24v 900w element going into that water heater,
replacing one of the two 240vac energy suckers. The timer will come
on for one hour, if necessary, each day before I get up. I'm not
going to feed the grid because that means I'd have to get a net
meter.

I simply disconnected the lower heater element so the bottom water
warms from ground to basement temperature by wood heat. The top
element operates normally from the grid, and the sink spray hose in my
shower reduces water use enough by shutting off when released for the
heater to keep up.

The wood stove heats laundry or dish water as hot as needed. One of
the thermocouple channels displayed upstairs is dedicated to water or
food temperature, with a new Inconel probe because I don't know the
previous use of the second-hand probes.

Doesn't Oregon have some regulation on how hot the water should be?
Mine runs 115~120F as the thermostat cycles.

The lower heater's thermostat is maxed out. I switch it back on when
an ice storm threatens to provide for several hot showers after the
hard work of storm cleanup. This also sterilizes the tank at least
once a year although I'm on treated town water.

--jsw

On 3/11/2016 6:12 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 23:48:44 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 21:36:24 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


And I question whether you really know what evidence is being
tampered
with. The data and other evidence that's tossed around about
anthropogenic warming is a propagandist's dream. It's too complex,
and
too easy to obscure, for anyone but an expert to unravel.

Actually the atmospheric energy transport mechanisms are rather
basic
and simple, relative to some of the other thermodynamics we had to
learn.

Climatology is not an exercise in deterministic physics, as you
certainly know.

We student chemists learned about energy transfer in gases
first because it is so much easier to understand there than in
liquids
or solids.

Liquids -- the oceans -- are highly involved in climate.


Climate is extensively very complex but not so difficult
intensively,
at least if you have a good background in physics and chemistry. The
original "climate scientists" were professional astronomers
investigating the atmospheres of Venus and Mars.

One of the labs in college had a large apparatus set up to measure
the
properties of suspected greenhouse and ozone depleting gases at the
low concentrations of the upper atmosphere. I spent a summer
operating
and analyzing data from an infrared spectrophotometer, so I became
pretty familiar with the process and the quantum mechanical
interpretation of the squiggles on the spectra.

The real problem is collecting sufficient accurate data from places
we
don't have continuous easy access to, such as the lower atmosphere
over oceans or the Brazilian rain forest.

The real problem is that the system is fundamentally chaotic. The
models are based on probability-density functions.


"You guys can pluck out some physical phenomenon and debate about
which
way the photons are going, or argue over the methodologies of
measuring temperature, but no one here has any idea how the whole
puzzle fits together."

Those arguments are basic to the dispute over how to collect and
interpret the data.

Yes, and that makes up at least half of the bull**** about climate
propagated on this newsgroup. The other half is about isolating
transport mechanisms as if climate occurred in a bell jar.

You've only shown how little your own opinions
mean.

I have no opinions about the science, except that the real
scientists
are vastly more likely to know what they're talking about than
anyone
here. At around 20:1 agreement, they're the safer bet.

--
Ed Huntress



--jsw

Okay, I get that you are annoyed by attacks on your sacred cow that
you lack the scientific education to directly respond to.

You aren't interested in the science. For you, as for most, it's all
about the politics.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 19:25:29 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


All but one of my light bulbs (75w pump house warmth) is either CFL
or
LED. My electric bill is $40/mo, and I have a new timer for the
electric water heater. Once I get the new solar panels installed,
I'll also have a 24v 900w element going into that water heater,
replacing one of the two 240vac energy suckers. The timer will come
on for one hour, if necessary, each day before I get up. I'm not
going to feed the grid because that means I'd have to get a net
meter.


That's a case where I think the economics favor grid power, because of
the high cost and limited cycle life of vented deep-cycle batteries.
I'm still experimenting with how to best use them. I think the answer
is to recharge them to the solar controller's lower VRLA/AGM voltage
cutoff setting so they don't release gas indoors, and then schlepp
them outdoors after the blackout ends to top off and equalize them per
the maker's instructions at the higher voltage that mixes the
stratified electrolyte by bubbling. That's one of those inconvenient
solutions only the inventer would tolerate, and impractical for
batteries heavier than Group 31.

When recharging quickly from a generator I feed my unregulated,
Powerstat-controlled homebrew 35V 15A power supply through the solar
controller's panel input to make use of its automatic charge cutoff.

My filler-cap batteries don't bubble noticeably at the 13.6V AGM
cutoff. The "book" calls 14.3V the threshold of significant gas
generation. I can't judge the rate by just looking but 14.0 to 14.3 is
where the bubbling becomes continuous, and also where fine acid mist
comes out. I couldn't see well enough through the spattered food wrap
to describe bubbling as more than "substantial" at 14.8V.

I've run a gas generation test in ?? company's lab on their
lead-acid batteries. While I can't reveal details the results were
similar.

The Interstate battery I put in the truck in 2002 receives a top-off
charge every month or two and is still in good condition, judging by
the electrolyte gravity and the time it will run the headlights
without dropping too far.

--jsw

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 20:51:11 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"John B." wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 07:45:49 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...

Lets look at an infrared photo from above the Boston area shall
we?
http://www.urbanheatislands.com/_/rs...urban_area.png

So tell me...which part of the photo has the correct overall
temperature? Hummm? Snicker....

http://www.urbanheatislands.com/\

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2015/11/1...-temperatures/


If you can follow it, this article explains how CO2 dominates the
heat
radiation lost to space from the upper atmosphere at certain
wavelengths, allowing us to measure its contribution to Earth's
energy
flow without the confusion from other sources that the maps show.
http://clivebest.com/blog/?p=1169
"At these levels there is little water vapour and CO2 dominates the
energy loss."

"Therefore the main physics arguement supporting enhanced global
warming caused by increasing levels of CO2 is the in height and
thereby lower temperature of the effective radiating level of the
atmosphere to space."

"As we rise up in the atmosphere so the density falls exponentially
and only at heights of 8-9 kms does the atmosphere then become
transparent in the main CO2 bands allowing energy loss direct to
space."

"Feedback Effects" exposes the main weakness of AGW theory, the
unproven assumption that water will amplify the admittedly tiny
contribution of CO2 to global warming.

This is analogous to measuring rainfall by observing the water
flowing
over a dam. There are too many ways that water can enter the lake,
but
only one way for it to leave, and the output has to balance the
input;
the lake can't store much extra water because a small rise in its
level greatly increases the flow over the dam.

Similarly measuring CO2's radiative emission into space with
satellites bypasses the complication of all the ways CO2 receives
and -briefly- stores heat from the Earth. CO2 can't permanently trap
heat, only modulate its release.

--jsw


Be that as it may, ice core studies virtually prove that increases
in
temperature and increases in CO2 in the atmosphere have been
occurring
at the same time for something like 400,000 years.

While this may not "prove" cause and effect they would certainly
make
one think that there might be a relationship.

--
cheers,

John B.

It certainly doesn't prove there was an industrial society filling the
air with CO2 400,000 years ago. We can safely assume that the
temperature and CO2 variations were natural.
http://www.livescience.com/44330-jur...n-dioxide.html

I want to see the questions researched honestly and openly, instead of
suppressing data that doesn't support prejudices.

The point was that the CO2 and higher temperatures did coincide. I
don't think that the ice core studies claimed any cause and effect...
as I believe I said.

Quite obviously temperature and, or, CO2 changes some 400,000 years
ago were not the results of human endeavor :-)

--
cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 18:37:47 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 12:51:48 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 19:25:29 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
m...
It looks to me like we have more than ever before. I'm not
complaining
about it.

--
Ed Huntress


--jsw

You AGW believers collectively. This is what the experts know you
should be doing to reduce your personal carbon footprint:
http://cotap.org/reduce-carbon-footprint/
They forgot about hanging laundry outdoors, the heater in an
electric
dryer is a huge unnecessary waste.

Since you have a lathe you can convert round trash barrels ($12 at
HD)
into inexpensive rain barrels ($100 at HD) and avoid watering your
lawn with treated drinking water by threading the barbed end of a
hose
coupler and mounting it in the lower side wall, with an O ring on
the
outside and the appropriate stainless nut and washer on the inside.
Landscaping fabric over hardware cloth across the top will keep out
gutter debris and mosquitos.

During the winter I store chainsaw chips and chopped-up tree
branches
from the yard in the barrels, to use as kindling.

Pressing on and clamping a short piece of hose onto the barbs
inside
might be enough to make the watertight seal, but the inside bottom
of
the barrel is a difficult place to apply much force.

My carbon footprint went down in 1971, when I grokked Earth Day for
the first time.

I replaced my front lawn with chips and plantings of shrubs and
flowers with a single drip irrigation system for the entire 1/3 acre
of my land.

All but one of my light bulbs (75w pump house warmth) is either CFL
or
LED. My electric bill is $40/mo, and I have a new timer for the
electric water heater. Once I get the new solar panels installed,
I'll also have a 24v 900w element going into that water heater,
replacing one of the two 240vac energy suckers. The timer will come
on for one hour, if necessary, each day before I get up. I'm not
going to feed the grid because that means I'd have to get a net
meter.


My sister has a rain barrel diverter for me to pick up. So far,
it's
legal to catch my rain in Oregon, unlike Colorado. That just floors
me, that you're fined for NOT allowing runoff in CO!

I fill 1/3 of a 13gal tall kitchen trash bag each week and recycle
the
rest. All paper, cardboard, plastic, cans, and bottles are
recycled.

Old Weird Ed probably has a carbon footprint the size of Algore's,
but
I doubt he has the stock options in all the carbon control companies
Algore has.

This weather station distribution map is telling, too. I believe
Hansen, et al, had something to do with their removal, too.
http://climateaudit.org/2008/02/10/h...-distribution/
Amazingly (wink, wink) with fewer stations reporting and only the
hotter stations being included in the dataset, Earth is warming!

ohmigodwereallgonnadie...

I paved my front yard with recycled garbage-can lids and we run bath
water into our kitchen sink. I ride a bicyle 30 miles every day, and
my wife makes our clothes from dryer lint, to make up for the
clothes
dryer.

Dinner tonight is fried squirrel from the back yard, and composted
tomato plants from last summer. After dark, I'm going out to gig
some
spring peepers for tomorrow night's dinner. We eat one meal a day.

--
Ed Huntress

When stuffed Garfields were the craze I lashed together a small
Native-American-style hide stretching frame holding a Garfield skin
and hung it in my vehicle. Soon after that I stopped seeing them.

You didn't waste Garfield, did you? I hope you ate him...

--
Ed Huntress

"John B." wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 20:51:11 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"John B." wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 07:45:49 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
m...

Lets look at an infrared photo from above the Boston area shall
we?
http://www.urbanheatislands.com/_/rs...urban_area.png

So tell me...which part of the photo has the correct overall
temperature? Hummm? Snicker....

http://www.urbanheatislands.com/\

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2015/11/1...-temperatures/


If you can follow it, this article explains how CO2 dominates the
heat
radiation lost to space from the upper atmosphere at certain
wavelengths, allowing us to measure its contribution to Earth's
energy
flow without the confusion from other sources that the maps show.
http://clivebest.com/blog/?p=1169
"At these levels there is little water vapour and CO2 dominates
the
energy loss."

"Therefore the main physics arguement supporting enhanced global
warming caused by increasing levels of CO2 is the in height and
thereby lower temperature of the effective radiating level of the
atmosphere to space."

"As we rise up in the atmosphere so the density falls
exponentially
and only at heights of 8-9 kms does the atmosphere then become
transparent in the main CO2 bands allowing energy loss direct to
space."

"Feedback Effects" exposes the main weakness of AGW theory, the
unproven assumption that water will amplify the admittedly tiny
contribution of CO2 to global warming.

This is analogous to measuring rainfall by observing the water
flowing
over a dam. There are too many ways that water can enter the lake,
but
only one way for it to leave, and the output has to balance the
input;
the lake can't store much extra water because a small rise in its
level greatly increases the flow over the dam.

Similarly measuring CO2's radiative emission into space with
satellites bypasses the complication of all the ways CO2 receives
and -briefly- stores heat from the Earth. CO2 can't permanently
trap
heat, only modulate its release.

--jsw


Be that as it may, ice core studies virtually prove that increases
in
temperature and increases in CO2 in the atmosphere have been
occurring
at the same time for something like 400,000 years.

While this may not "prove" cause and effect they would certainly
make
one think that there might be a relationship.

--
cheers,

John B.

It certainly doesn't prove there was an industrial society filling
the
air with CO2 400,000 years ago. We can safely assume that the
temperature and CO2 variations were natural.
http://www.livescience.com/44330-jur...n-dioxide.html

I want to see the questions researched honestly and openly, instead
of
suppressing data that doesn't support prejudices.

The point was that the CO2 and higher temperatures did coincide. I
don't think that the ice core studies claimed any cause and
effect...
as I believe I said.

Quite obviously temperature and, or, CO2 changes some 400,000 years
ago were not the results of human endeavor :-)

--
cheers,

John B.

This shows one reason why the higher temperature could be a cause
rather than an effect.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ga...er-d_1148.html
Cold water can hold more gas than hot water. Also it can hold many
times as much CO2 as oxygen or nitrogen.

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 18:37:47 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 12:51:48 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 19:25:29 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
om...
It looks to me like we have more than ever before. I'm not
complaining
about it.

--
Ed Huntress


--jsw

You AGW believers collectively. This is what the experts know you
should be doing to reduce your personal carbon footprint:
http://cotap.org/reduce-carbon-footprint/
They forgot about hanging laundry outdoors, the heater in an
electric
dryer is a huge unnecessary waste.

Since you have a lathe you can convert round trash barrels ($12
at
HD)
into inexpensive rain barrels ($100 at HD) and avoid watering
your
lawn with treated drinking water by threading the barbed end of a
hose
coupler and mounting it in the lower side wall, with an O ring on
the
outside and the appropriate stainless nut and washer on the
inside.
Landscaping fabric over hardware cloth across the top will keep
out
gutter debris and mosquitos.

During the winter I store chainsaw chips and chopped-up tree
branches
from the yard in the barrels, to use as kindling.

Pressing on and clamping a short piece of hose onto the barbs
inside
might be enough to make the watertight seal, but the inside
bottom
of
the barrel is a difficult place to apply much force.

My carbon footprint went down in 1971, when I grokked Earth Day
for
the first time.

I replaced my front lawn with chips and plantings of shrubs and
flowers with a single drip irrigation system for the entire 1/3
acre
of my land.

All but one of my light bulbs (75w pump house warmth) is either
CFL
or
LED. My electric bill is $40/mo, and I have a new timer for the
electric water heater. Once I get the new solar panels installed,
I'll also have a 24v 900w element going into that water heater,
replacing one of the two 240vac energy suckers. The timer will
come
on for one hour, if necessary, each day before I get up. I'm not
going to feed the grid because that means I'd have to get a net
meter.


My sister has a rain barrel diverter for me to pick up. So far,
it's
legal to catch my rain in Oregon, unlike Colorado. That just
floors
me, that you're fined for NOT allowing runoff in CO!

I fill 1/3 of a 13gal tall kitchen trash bag each week and recycle
the
rest. All paper, cardboard, plastic, cans, and bottles are
recycled.

Old Weird Ed probably has a carbon footprint the size of Algore's,
but
I doubt he has the stock options in all the carbon control
companies
Algore has.

This weather station distribution map is telling, too. I believe
Hansen, et al, had something to do with their removal, too.
http://climateaudit.org/2008/02/10/h...-distribution/
Amazingly (wink, wink) with fewer stations reporting and only the
hotter stations being included in the dataset, Earth is warming!

ohmigodwereallgonnadie...

I paved my front yard with recycled garbage-can lids and we run
bath
water into our kitchen sink. I ride a bicyle 30 miles every day,
and
my wife makes our clothes from dryer lint, to make up for the
clothes
dryer.

Dinner tonight is fried squirrel from the back yard, and composted
tomato plants from last summer. After dark, I'm going out to gig
some
spring peepers for tomorrow night's dinner. We eat one meal a day.

--
Ed Huntress

When stuffed Garfields were the craze I lashed together a small
Native-American-style hide stretching frame holding a Garfield skin
and hung it in my vehicle. Soon after that I stopped seeing them.

You didn't waste Garfield, did you? I hope you ate him...
--
Ed Huntress

I ground up the polyester stuffing into artificial coffee creamer.

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 18:52:03 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 19:25:29 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


All but one of my light bulbs (75w pump house warmth) is either CFL
or
LED. My electric bill is $40/mo, and I have a new timer for the
electric water heater. Once I get the new solar panels installed,
I'll also have a 24v 900w element going into that water heater,
replacing one of the two 240vac energy suckers. The timer will come
on for one hour, if necessary, each day before I get up. I'm not
going to feed the grid because that means I'd have to get a net
meter.

I simply disconnected the lower heater element so the bottom water
warms from ground to basement temperature by wood heat. The top
element operates normally from the grid, and the sink spray hose in my
shower reduces water use enough by shutting off when released for the
heater to keep up.

I put a new/used handheld shower sprayer in last month and it has a
shutoff between spray styles. Wet down, shut off, lather up, rinse,
done. Saves a lot of water, too, but I get the full-power spray, not
some sissy sink atomizer. I'm on well water, but don't abuse it.
GI showers, right?


The wood stove heats laundry or dish water as hot as needed. One of
the thermocouple channels displayed upstairs is dedicated to water or
food temperature, with a new Inconel probe because I don't know the
previous use of the second-hand probes.

I wouldn't reuse an old probe in food, either. How are you plumbed
the wood stove?


Doesn't Oregon have some regulation on how hot the water should be?
Mine runs 115~120F as the thermostat cycles.

From the state "How to Buy a Water Heater" info:
"Set your water heater thermostat at 125ºF. If it’s not hot enough,
inch it up 5 degrees at a time until you’re satisfied. (Dishwashers
now come with a booster that increases dishwasher water to 140ºF or
higher.) "

Mine's set to 120F, but I may boost that when I switch to single
element and solar backup. The existing thermostat for the bottom
element will work for the 24vdc element, so it may go to 140F.

We'll see how it goes, but I don't think the 240v element will stay on
for long, even without the timer in the circuit. I'll try it with
540w first, then more if necessary. My 50 gallon tank is 12 years
old, so I may be moving to a 20 during the switch.


The lower heater's thermostat is maxed out. I switch it back on when
an ice storm threatens to provide for several hot showers after the
hard work of storm cleanup.

Yeah, hot showers after storm cleanup are both nice and necessary.


This also sterilizes the tank at least
once a year although I'm on treated town water.

I never even thought to sterilize a water heater tank. Why would you?
A 3 gallon crock sits on my sink and I filter water into that for
cooking and drinking. I just backwashed the Point One filter this
morning before cleaning (quarterly) and refilling the crock.
http://tinyurl.com/gtz6ece Great filters. I keep one of these in my
BOB: http://tinyurl.com/z2a5lsp

--
Our main business is not to see what lies dimly at
a distance but to do what lies clearly at hand.
--Thomas Carlyle

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 18:52:03 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 19:25:29 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


All but one of my light bulbs (75w pump house warmth) is either
CFL
or
LED. My electric bill is $40/mo, and I have a new timer for the
electric water heater. Once I get the new solar panels installed,
I'll also have a 24v 900w element going into that water heater,
replacing one of the two 240vac energy suckers. The timer will
come
on for one hour, if necessary, each day before I get up. I'm not
going to feed the grid because that means I'd have to get a net
meter.

I simply disconnected the lower heater element so the bottom water
warms from ground to basement temperature by wood heat. The top
element operates normally from the grid, and the sink spray hose in
my
shower reduces water use enough by shutting off when released for
the
heater to keep up.

I put a new/used handheld shower sprayer in last month and it has a
shutoff between spray styles. Wet down, shut off, lather up, rinse,
done. Saves a lot of water, too, but I get the full-power spray,
not
some sissy sink atomizer. I'm on well water, but don't abuse it.
GI showers, right?


The wood stove heats laundry or dish water as hot as needed. One of
the thermocouple channels displayed upstairs is dedicated to water
or
food temperature, with a new Inconel probe because I don't know the
previous use of the second-hand probes.

I wouldn't reuse an old probe in food, either. How are you plumbed
the wood stove?


Doesn't Oregon have some regulation on how hot the water should be?
Mine runs 115~120F as the thermostat cycles.

From the state "How to Buy a Water Heater" info:
"Set your water heater thermostat at 125ºF. If it's not hot enough,
inch it up 5 degrees at a time until you're satisfied. (Dishwashers
now come with a booster that increases dishwasher water to 140ºF or
higher.) "

Mine's set to 120F, but I may boost that when I switch to single
element and solar backup. The existing thermostat for the bottom
element will work for the 24vdc element, so it may go to 140F.

We'll see how it goes, but I don't think the 240v element will stay
on
for long, even without the timer in the circuit. I'll try it with
540w first, then more if necessary. My 50 gallon tank is 12 years
old, so I may be moving to a 20 during the switch.


The lower heater's thermostat is maxed out. I switch it back on when
an ice storm threatens to provide for several hot showers after the
hard work of storm cleanup.

Yeah, hot showers after storm cleanup are both nice and necessary.


This also sterilizes the tank at least
once a year although I'm on treated town water.

I never even thought to sterilize a water heater tank. Why would
you?
A 3 gallon crock sits on my sink and I filter water into that for
cooking and drinking. I just backwashed the Point One filter this
morning before cleaning (quarterly) and refilling the crock.
http://tinyurl.com/gtz6ece Great filters. I keep one of these in
my
BOB: http://tinyurl.com/z2a5lsp


http://www.treehugger.com/green-food...mperature.html

http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/12/4/pdfs/05-1101.pdf

You may have become immune to whatever you are constantly exposed to
but not sickened by.

--jsw

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 18:52:03 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


The wood stove heats laundry or dish water as hot as needed. One of
the thermocouple channels displayed upstairs is dedicated to water
or
food temperature, with a new Inconel probe because I don't know the
previous use of the second-hand probes.

I wouldn't reuse an old probe in food, either. How are you plumbed
the wood stove?

There's no plumbing in the stove, I heat laundry water on top in
kettles and pour them into the washing machine. I keep my firebrick
collection stacked under the stove in case some day the added weight
of the water might collapse a leg.
--jsw

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 20:20:05 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 19:25:29 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


All but one of my light bulbs (75w pump house warmth) is either CFL
or
LED. My electric bill is $40/mo, and I have a new timer for the
electric water heater. Once I get the new solar panels installed,
I'll also have a 24v 900w element going into that water heater,
replacing one of the two 240vac energy suckers. The timer will come
on for one hour, if necessary, each day before I get up. I'm not
going to feed the grid because that means I'd have to get a net
meter.


That's a case where I think the economics favor grid power, because of
the high cost and limited cycle life of vented deep-cycle batteries.

That it does, but what happens when (not if) the grid goes tits-up?


I'm still experimenting with how to best use them. I think the answer
is to recharge them to the solar controller's lower VRLA/AGM voltage
cutoff setting so they don't release gas indoors, and then schlepp
them outdoors after the blackout ends to top off and equalize them per
the maker's instructions at the higher voltage that mixes the

How often are you equalizing? The last article I read said that it
drops battery life considerably if you do it very often. I think the
article was in HomePower mag. No equalization can drop the life, too,
so there's a balance.


stratified electrolyte by bubbling. That's one of those inconvenient
solutions only the inventer would tolerate, and impractical for
batteries heavier than Group 31.

Why not vent them well rather than schlepping? MUCH less work.
Enclosed battery space, right? Fan on the inside, window to the
outside? For a more exciting removal of the hydrogen, just burn it
off. (Disclaimer: Kids, don't try this at home.)

I need to do something better with my solar battery set. The original
is outside in a box, which means it chills in the winter and boils in
the summer. Maybe I'll build a foam-insulated cover for it, with
vents, then figure out a better solution for the larger battery set on
the new panels when I do get them. Battery watering sets aren't too
expensive, and auto-fill beats frequent checking. Cheap insurance.


When recharging quickly from a generator I feed my unregulated,
Powerstat-controlled homebrew 35V 15A power supply through the solar
controller's panel input to make use of its automatic charge cutoff.

Good idea. Generators are also more costly than grid power.


My filler-cap batteries don't bubble noticeably at the 13.6V AGM
cutoff. The "book" calls 14.3V the threshold of significant gas
generation. I can't judge the rate by just looking but 14.0 to 14.3 is
where the bubbling becomes continuous, and also where fine acid mist
comes out. I couldn't see well enough through the spattered food wrap
to describe bubbling as more than "substantial" at 14.8V.

Um, "food wrap"? Makeshift battery enclosure, Mickey? Whatever
works, wot?


I've run a gas generation test in ?? company's lab on their
lead-acid batteries. While I can't reveal details the results were
similar.

Good knowledge to have.


The Interstate battery I put in the truck in 2002 receives a top-off
charge every month or two and is still in good condition, judging by
the electrolyte gravity and the time it will run the headlights
without dropping too far.

13+ years? Not bad. I just replaced my Tundra battery last year, so
I got 9 on the original.

Other battery tech:

Ickterstate- I bought one rebuilt nicad tool battery from the local
Interstate and won't ever buy anything from them again. It was less
powerful than the original with the bad cell, and they said "It tests
to spec. No warranty necessary." I wish I'd checked specs on the
original cells, but I'd bet the replacements had a significantly lower
capacity.

The NiMHs in the Bosch Impactor lasted 5 years and were good when I
sold the kit. Lithiums in the new Makita are still going strong 5+
years later.

Lithiums in the $500 Milwaukee set I won at a fair are still going
strong at about a year old. g

I wish LiFePO batteries were 10x cheaper now. I'd get a few KW of
those instead of LA. Tesla keeps making strong drops in pricing on
their battery tech. A couple 10kw modules would be nice, eh?

Or maybe solar electrolysis to power fuel cells?

--
Our main business is not to see what lies dimly at
a distance but to do what lies clearly at hand.
--Thomas Carlyle

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 20:54:50 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 18:37:47 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 12:51:48 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 19:25:29 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
news:s2e3eb5hqnpn75mk4te81htl0bp7u3n0t1@4ax. com...
It looks to me like we have more than ever before. I'm not
complaining
about it.

--
Ed Huntress


--jsw

You AGW believers collectively. This is what the experts know you
should be doing to reduce your personal carbon footprint:
http://cotap.org/reduce-carbon-footprint/
They forgot about hanging laundry outdoors, the heater in an
electric
dryer is a huge unnecessary waste.

Since you have a lathe you can convert round trash barrels ($12
at
HD)
into inexpensive rain barrels ($100 at HD) and avoid watering
your
lawn with treated drinking water by threading the barbed end of a
hose
coupler and mounting it in the lower side wall, with an O ring on
the
outside and the appropriate stainless nut and washer on the
inside.
Landscaping fabric over hardware cloth across the top will keep
out
gutter debris and mosquitos.

During the winter I store chainsaw chips and chopped-up tree
branches
from the yard in the barrels, to use as kindling.

Pressing on and clamping a short piece of hose onto the barbs
inside
might be enough to make the watertight seal, but the inside
bottom
of
the barrel is a difficult place to apply much force.

My carbon footprint went down in 1971, when I grokked Earth Day
for
the first time.

I replaced my front lawn with chips and plantings of shrubs and
flowers with a single drip irrigation system for the entire 1/3
acre
of my land.

All but one of my light bulbs (75w pump house warmth) is either
CFL
or
LED. My electric bill is $40/mo, and I have a new timer for the
electric water heater. Once I get the new solar panels installed,
I'll also have a 24v 900w element going into that water heater,
replacing one of the two 240vac energy suckers. The timer will
come
on for one hour, if necessary, each day before I get up. I'm not
going to feed the grid because that means I'd have to get a net
meter.


My sister has a rain barrel diverter for me to pick up. So far,
it's
legal to catch my rain in Oregon, unlike Colorado. That just
floors
me, that you're fined for NOT allowing runoff in CO!

I fill 1/3 of a 13gal tall kitchen trash bag each week and recycle
the
rest. All paper, cardboard, plastic, cans, and bottles are
recycled.

Old Weird Ed probably has a carbon footprint the size of Algore's,
but
I doubt he has the stock options in all the carbon control
companies
Algore has.

This weather station distribution map is telling, too. I believe
Hansen, et al, had something to do with their removal, too.
http://climateaudit.org/2008/02/10/h...-distribution/
Amazingly (wink, wink) with fewer stations reporting and only the
hotter stations being included in the dataset, Earth is warming!

ohmigodwereallgonnadie...

I paved my front yard with recycled garbage-can lids and we run
bath
water into our kitchen sink. I ride a bicyle 30 miles every day,
and
my wife makes our clothes from dryer lint, to make up for the
clothes
dryer.

Dinner tonight is fried squirrel from the back yard, and composted
tomato plants from last summer. After dark, I'm going out to gig
some
spring peepers for tomorrow night's dinner. We eat one meal a day.

--
Ed Huntress

When stuffed Garfields were the craze I lashed together a small
Native-American-style hide stretching frame holding a Garfield skin
and hung it in my vehicle. Soon after that I stopped seeing them.

You didn't waste Garfield, did you? I hope you ate him...
--
Ed Huntress

I ground up the polyester stuffing into artificial coffee creamer.

Ha-ha! Maybe that's where we're headed.

--
Ed Huntress

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 20:20:05 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 19:25:29 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


That's a case where I think the economics favor grid power, because
of
the high cost and limited cycle life of vented deep-cycle batteries.

That it does, but what happens when (not if) the grid goes tits-up?

We return to the 1800's and DIY steam power, the Good Old Days. But I
suspect that a deteriorating, unreliable electricity supply as in
India would switch the helplessly codependent Greenies from blocking
construction to screaming about their NEEDS!! before it did more than
annoy the more technically competent of us. This neighborhood bands
together and shares resources, one generator serves three houses. I
contribute 100' extension cords and repairs to carbs and electrical
systems, and one of my Coleman gennys has spent almost its entire
operating life powering the house across the street.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_India_blackouts
"The nation suffers from frequent power outages that last as long as
10 hours."

How often are you equalizing? The last article I read said that it
drops battery life considerably if you do it very often. I think
the
article was in HomePower mag. No equalization can drop the life,
too,
so there's a balance.

Every manufacturer's advice is slightly different, and a battery's
behavor changes as it ages. I think the least damaging method that's
still adequate is to charge at 1% to 2% of the 20-hour-rate capacity
until the voltage rises to 14.8V for flooded or whatever the maker
says for AGMs. I charge unmarked ones to 14.4V at less than half an
amp.

Usually I use an unregulated rectifier + capacitor charger adjusted to
the individual battery with a Variac. The cap I added to the charger
stabilizes the voltage and current meter readings. "Dumb" rectifier
chargers automatically taper down the current as the voltage rises.
The next time I walk by I check the meters and turn up the Variac.

One is a 1970's Schauer charger with a small 3 Amp Variac added in,
the other a homebrew that puts out 0 - 35V at up to 15A, with a 1/10
Farad filter cap. Since they don't have an output regulator they
aren't susceptible to damage from battery voltage being fed back into
the unpowered circuit if the AC is interrupted. You can protect a lab
supply from that with a series diode but then the voltmeter will be
useless.

I don't equalize vehicle batteries very hard unless the hydrometer or
charging behavior reveals a weak cell. The smaller colored-bead type
is enough to show significant differences and works better on small
riding mower batteries with small caps and little free liquid..

If they are sulfated / corroded / whatever and won't accept current at
14.4V I apply 15V to 16V and keep an eye on the current, which is
typically under 100mA until they start to recover, then it rises and
may need to be limited due to the otherwise excessive charging
voltage. This is the case where a Smart Charger gives up, but a smart
user can salvage the battery. These numbers are all from makers' data
sheets. I just pick the more conservative ones and procedures that can
safely be left unattended.

My 5-year-old HF '45W' kit supplies 0.6A per panel, making it good
current-limited source for gently conditioning batteries. I made an
LM350 variable regulator to fine-tune the charging voltage and
current. An LM338 will pass more current, I chose the LM350 to protect
some nice 3A meters I found.
http://www.eleccircuit.com/adjustabl...a-using-lm338/
D1 protects IC1 from higher voltage on the output than input, as I
mentioned above.

Active, adjustable current limiting is conspicuously absent from
commercial battery chargers. I've read that "Pulse" desulfating is
really only a cheap substitute for building in a current limiter. At
Segway I learned how to use a lab-type adjustable power supply to meet
almost any battery charging requirement except fast-charging NiCd and
NiMH. The problem is that it requires a careful, attentive and well
informed user such as an electronic lab technician, NOT the average
mechanical engineer.

stratified electrolyte by bubbling. That's one of those inconvenient
solutions only the inventer would tolerate, and impractical for
batteries heavier than Group 31.

Why not vent them well rather than schlepping? MUCH less work.
Enclosed battery space, right? Fan on the inside, window to the
outside? For a more exciting removal of the hydrogen, just burn it
off. (Disclaimer: Kids, don't try this at home.)

I need to do something better with my solar battery set. The
original
is outside in a box, which means it chills in the winter and boils
in
the summer. Maybe I'll build a foam-insulated cover for it, with
vents, then figure out a better solution for the larger battery set
on
the new panels when I do get them. Battery watering sets aren't too
expensive, and auto-fill beats frequent checking. Cheap insurance.

When I rebuild the tool shed I plan to leave space for battery shelves
in a separate cabinet on an outside wall. I've had too much trouble
containing liquids like hydraulic fluid to assume I could safely
control invisible hydrogen. I don't have or plan to acquire nearly
enough batteries to fill it so the remaining space will probably be
for lawn and garden chemicals.
..
How much of an actual problem has the temperature swing been for you?
Batteries work well enough outdoors in cars here, where the temps run
from +100F to -10F. When I lived an hour further north it sometimes
dropped to -30F.

Being able to watch and limit the charging current spares me from the
uncertainties of voltage-controlled charging. I use the
voltage-vs-temperature table only to determine state of charge and
know when they are fully topped off..

Good idea. Generators are also more costly than grid power.

I once figured about half a buck per KWH. My system is for standy use
only, but I need to test it and exercise the generators.

The Interstate battery I put in the truck in 2002 receives a top-off
charge every month or two and is still in good condition, judging by
the electrolyte gravity and the time it will run the headlights
without dropping too far.

13+ years? Not bad. I just replaced my Tundra battery last year,
so
I got 9 on the original.

Did you do anything to maintain it?
I caught one cell on my truck battery dropping out a few years ago and
began charging it and checking the level more often. It seems to have
recovered.

...
I wish LiFePO batteries were 10x cheaper now. I'd get a few KW of
those instead of LA. Tesla keeps making strong drops in pricing on
their battery tech. A couple 10kw modules would be nice, eh?

A friend is getting a quote from Solar City, which is connected to
Tesla. When the engineers come by I'm going to find out as much as I
can about the technical possibilities. Their site is useless.

Segway stores large pallets of Lithium batteries at the factory. The
fire department's practice response for a large Class D fire next to a
river was awesome.
http://www.fire-extinguisher101.com/class-d-fires.html

I needed to use a very reactive Lithium compound for an organic
synthesis and a helpful grad student came over to break off a chunk
from the rock-like mass in the can. As soon as he tapped the chisel it
burst into brilliant crimson flame and all we could do was pull down
the fume hood door and watch it all go up, then go request another
can.

--jsw

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 20:54:50 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 18:37:47 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
m...
On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 12:51:48 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 19:25:29 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
news:s2e3eb5hqnpn75mk4te81htl0bp7u3n0t1@4ax .com...
It looks to me like we have more than ever before. I'm not
complaining
about it.

--
Ed Huntress


--jsw

You AGW believers collectively. This is what the experts know
you
should be doing to reduce your personal carbon footprint:
http://cotap.org/reduce-carbon-footprint/
They forgot about hanging laundry outdoors, the heater in an
electric
dryer is a huge unnecessary waste.

Since you have a lathe you can convert round trash barrels ($12
at
HD)
into inexpensive rain barrels ($100 at HD) and avoid watering
your
lawn with treated drinking water by threading the barbed end of
a
hose
coupler and mounting it in the lower side wall, with an O ring
on
the
outside and the appropriate stainless nut and washer on the
inside.
Landscaping fabric over hardware cloth across the top will keep
out
gutter debris and mosquitos.

During the winter I store chainsaw chips and chopped-up tree
branches
from the yard in the barrels, to use as kindling.

Pressing on and clamping a short piece of hose onto the barbs
inside
might be enough to make the watertight seal, but the inside
bottom
of
the barrel is a difficult place to apply much force.

My carbon footprint went down in 1971, when I grokked Earth Day
for
the first time.

I replaced my front lawn with chips and plantings of shrubs and
flowers with a single drip irrigation system for the entire 1/3
acre
of my land.

All but one of my light bulbs (75w pump house warmth) is either
CFL
or
LED. My electric bill is $40/mo, and I have a new timer for the
electric water heater. Once I get the new solar panels
installed,
I'll also have a 24v 900w element going into that water heater,
replacing one of the two 240vac energy suckers. The timer will
come
on for one hour, if necessary, each day before I get up. I'm
not
going to feed the grid because that means I'd have to get a net
meter.


My sister has a rain barrel diverter for me to pick up. So far,
it's
legal to catch my rain in Oregon, unlike Colorado. That just
floors
me, that you're fined for NOT allowing runoff in CO!

I fill 1/3 of a 13gal tall kitchen trash bag each week and
recycle
the
rest. All paper, cardboard, plastic, cans, and bottles are
recycled.

Old Weird Ed probably has a carbon footprint the size of
Algore's,
but
I doubt he has the stock options in all the carbon control
companies
Algore has.

This weather station distribution map is telling, too. I
believe
Hansen, et al, had something to do with their removal, too.
http://climateaudit.org/2008/02/10/h...-distribution/
Amazingly (wink, wink) with fewer stations reporting and only
the
hotter stations being included in the dataset, Earth is warming!

ohmigodwereallgonnadie...

I paved my front yard with recycled garbage-can lids and we run
bath
water into our kitchen sink. I ride a bicyle 30 miles every day,
and
my wife makes our clothes from dryer lint, to make up for the
clothes
dryer.

Dinner tonight is fried squirrel from the back yard, and
composted
tomato plants from last summer. After dark, I'm going out to gig
some
spring peepers for tomorrow night's dinner. We eat one meal a
day.

--
Ed Huntress

When stuffed Garfields were the craze I lashed together a small
Native-American-style hide stretching frame holding a Garfield
skin
and hung it in my vehicle. Soon after that I stopped seeing them.

You didn't waste Garfield, did you? I hope you ate him...
--
Ed Huntress

I ground up the polyester stuffing into artificial coffee creamer.

Ha-ha! Maybe that's where we're headed.

--
Ed Huntress

All we need is to engineer microbes that convert old plastics into
digestible sugars, fats, proteins etc, like the microbes in a
termite's gut that break down cellulose fibers.
http://phys.org/news/2013-08-termite...urce-fuel.html

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016, Larry Jacques wrote:

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 19:25:29 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote: .

My carbon footprint went down in 1971, when I grokked Earth Day for
the first time.

So you've known about the environmentalist need for quite awhile, now. That need would have never been advocated nationally if their were no reason.

I replaced my front lawn with chips and plantings of shrubs and
flowers with a single drip irrigation system for the entire 1/3 acre
of my land.

Once I get the new solar panels installed, I'll also have a 24v
900w element going into that water heater,
replacing one of the two 240vac energy suckers. The timer will come
on for one hour, if necessary, each day before I get up. I'm not
going to feed the grid because that means I'd have to get a net meter.

My sister has a rain barrel diverter for me to pick up. So far, it's
legal to catch my rain in Oregon, unlike Colorado.

I'm going to... I'm going to... I'm going to...I'm going to... You've known about the need almost 45 years.

Old Weird Ed probably has a carbon footprint the size of Algore's, but
I doubt he has the stock options in all the carbon control companies
Algore has.

This weather station distribution map is telling, too. I believe
Hansen, et al, had something to do with their removal, too.
http://climateaudit.org/2008/02/10/h...-distribution/
Amazingly (wink, wink) with fewer stations reporting and only the
hotter stations being included in the dataset, Earth is warming!

ohmigodwereallgonnadie...

Why bother with any action then? Just keep limiting your effort to blabber.

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 20:48:32 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"John B." wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 20:51:11 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"John B." wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 07:45:49 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
om...

Lets look at an infrared photo from above the Boston area shall
we?
http://www.urbanheatislands.com/_/rs...urban_area.png

So tell me...which part of the photo has the correct overall
temperature? Hummm? Snicker....

http://www.urbanheatislands.com/\

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2015/11/1...-temperatures/


If you can follow it, this article explains how CO2 dominates the
heat
radiation lost to space from the upper atmosphere at certain
wavelengths, allowing us to measure its contribution to Earth's
energy
flow without the confusion from other sources that the maps show.
http://clivebest.com/blog/?p=1169
"At these levels there is little water vapour and CO2 dominates
the
energy loss."

"Therefore the main physics arguement supporting enhanced global
warming caused by increasing levels of CO2 is the in height and
thereby lower temperature of the effective radiating level of the
atmosphere to space."

"As we rise up in the atmosphere so the density falls
exponentially
and only at heights of 8-9 kms does the atmosphere then become
transparent in the main CO2 bands allowing energy loss direct to
space."

"Feedback Effects" exposes the main weakness of AGW theory, the
unproven assumption that water will amplify the admittedly tiny
contribution of CO2 to global warming.

This is analogous to measuring rainfall by observing the water
flowing
over a dam. There are too many ways that water can enter the lake,
but
only one way for it to leave, and the output has to balance the
input;
the lake can't store much extra water because a small rise in its
level greatly increases the flow over the dam.

Similarly measuring CO2's radiative emission into space with
satellites bypasses the complication of all the ways CO2 receives
and -briefly- stores heat from the Earth. CO2 can't permanently
trap
heat, only modulate its release.

--jsw


Be that as it may, ice core studies virtually prove that increases
in
temperature and increases in CO2 in the atmosphere have been
occurring
at the same time for something like 400,000 years.

While this may not "prove" cause and effect they would certainly
make
one think that there might be a relationship.

--
cheers,

John B.

It certainly doesn't prove there was an industrial society filling
the
air with CO2 400,000 years ago. We can safely assume that the
temperature and CO2 variations were natural.
http://www.livescience.com/44330-jur...n-dioxide.html

I want to see the questions researched honestly and openly, instead
of
suppressing data that doesn't support prejudices.

The point was that the CO2 and higher temperatures did coincide. I
don't think that the ice core studies claimed any cause and
effect...
as I believe I said.

Quite obviously temperature and, or, CO2 changes some 400,000 years
ago were not the results of human endeavor :-)

--
cheers,

John B.

This shows one reason why the higher temperature could be a cause
rather than an effect.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ga...er-d_1148.html
Cold water can hold more gas than hot water. Also it can hold many
times as much CO2 as oxygen or nitrogen.


I suspect that the truth of the matter is that the temperature is
getting warmer and no one actually knows why nor whether this is
simply an anomaly or indicative of the beginning of a major
temperature cycle.
--
cheers,

John B.

"John B." wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 20:48:32 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


I suspect that the truth of the matter is that the temperature is
getting warmer and no one actually knows why nor whether this is
simply an anomaly or indicative of the beginning of a major
temperature cycle.
--
cheers,

John B.

We have long since passed the point where it might be possible to find
out through unpoliticized objective research. The cure may be to
require the Believers to obey their own demands.
http://www.nrdc.org/globalwarming/solutions/

--jsw

On Saturday, March 12, 2016 at 3:05:32 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:

I suspect that the truth of the matter is that the temperature is
getting warmer and no one actually knows why nor whether this is
simply an anomaly or indicative of the beginning of a major
temperature cycle.

Get better suspicions. The effect was predictable, has
a known cause. No knowledge, however, predicts any natural
recovery to the initial state, as a "cycle" would suggest.

The "simply an anomaly" label suggests we should not try to understand it.
Related language: "ideopathic", "unknown and unknowable", "great mystery",
"will of God".

People aren't capable of not trying to understand, though. That's why
we put the 'sapiens' in 'homo sapiens'.

On 3/8/2016 11:03 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 8 Mar 2016 22:32:05 -0800 (PST), whit3rd
wrote:

On Tuesday, March 8, 2016 at 2:03:51 PM UTC-8, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 8 Mar 2016 13:09:31 -0800 (PST), whit3rd
wrote:

On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 5:17:57 PM UTC-8, Gunner Asch wrote:
http://realclimatescience.com/2016/0...-for-58-years/

Fascinating...really fascinating.....

No, irrelevant. You don't ignore the heat capacity of oceans, soil, and dismiss
the temperature of lower atmosphere that's in contact with the oceans and soil,
if you want a temperature measurement. That upper-atmosphere data is
of such a tiny bit of matter, by comparison, that it can be safely ignored.
The temperature of the vacuum of space is measurable; it can't tell you
anything about global warming, either.

Yet the global temperature has remained unchanged for 58 yrs..

In the last 58 years I recall, it has been cold every winter and warm every
summer. What planet are you from?

Were you dropped on your head recently, or did you have a stroke? Off
your meds? Or simply a Global Warming Zealot who is ****y about the
data I provided?

No data, as usual.

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 22:19:21 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 18:52:03 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

This also sterilizes the tank at least
once a year although I'm on treated town water.

I never even thought to sterilize a water heater tank. Why would
you?
A 3 gallon crock sits on my sink and I filter water into that for
cooking and drinking. I just backwashed the Point One filter this
morning before cleaning (quarterly) and refilling the crock.
http://tinyurl.com/gtz6ece Great filters. I keep one of these in
my
BOB: http://tinyurl.com/z2a5lsp


http://www.treehugger.com/green-food...mperature.html

http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/12/4/pdfs/05-1101.pdf

You may have become immune to whatever you are constantly exposed to
but not sickened by.

I don't have chlorinated water, either. AFAIK, rust bacteria aren't
harmful, but I do have those. Perhaps the dial will go up once I
settle with the solar system, JIC.

--
Our main business is not to see what lies dimly at
a distance but to do what lies clearly at hand.
--Thomas Carlyle

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 22:45:19 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 18:52:03 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


The wood stove heats laundry or dish water as hot as needed. One of
the thermocouple channels displayed upstairs is dedicated to water
or
food temperature, with a new Inconel probe because I don't know the
previous use of the second-hand probes.

I wouldn't reuse an old probe in food, either. How are you plumbed
the wood stove?

There's no plumbing in the stove, I heat laundry water on top in
kettles and pour them into the washing machine. I keep my firebrick
collection stacked under the stove in case some day the added weight
of the water might collapse a leg.

So it's automated via cheap help? Got it.

--
Our main business is not to see what lies dimly at
a distance but to do what lies clearly at hand.
--Thomas Carlyle

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 13:53:48 -0800, wrote:

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 13:14:45 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

Ed, you are one kind soul to attempt to bring facts and reason into
this discussion. My take on the subject is that it is one of many
where regular Joes should best accept the collective wisdom of the
experts. I'm surprised that I'm still incredulous about small-brained
people having "beliefs" about complicated subjects they judge mostly
by irrelevant personal observations, anecdotes, and fringe web pages.
While digging into the details might be work, finding the
well-researched and well-accepted conclusions is easy. Those who
insist on putting their opinion above the science are frequently
birthers, etc. The willfully ignorant are hopeless and it's a sorry
state of affairs that so much energy is wasted trying to fix them.

Oh..you mean Democrats then.

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 07:13:42 -0800, wrote:

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 19:19:56 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 13:53:48 -0800, wrote:

On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 13:14:45 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote:

Ed, you are one kind soul to attempt to bring facts and reason into
this discussion. My take on the subject is that it is one of many
where regular Joes should best accept the collective wisdom of the
experts. I'm surprised that I'm still incredulous about small-brained
people having "beliefs" about complicated subjects they judge mostly
by irrelevant personal observations, anecdotes, and fringe web pages.
While digging into the details might be work, finding the
well-researched and well-accepted conclusions is easy. Those who
insist on putting their opinion above the science are frequently
birthers, etc. The willfully ignorant are hopeless and it's a sorry
state of affairs that so much energy is wasted trying to fix them.

Thanks, Kidding, but facts and reason have no effect. This thing is
tribal -- like Trump supporters. As we've seen for several years, they
don't even read their own "cites."

There's a good piece on the phenomenon in the NYT today:

http://tinyurl.com/zfg8fmf

As you say, pretending that they -- or any of us here -- know enough
about climatology to have an opinion worth the powder it would take to
blow it to hell is ridiculous. It's all about resentment and
conspiracies.

The ignorati have been feeding and feeding off the GOP for a long
time. That has fueled Trump who's shamelessly taking it to the next
level. To guarantee the votes of those he politely calls "poorly
educated," he promises to do things that don't make sense and can't be
done, safe in the knowledge that his supporters are stupid. But he's
missing an opportunity. A big part of science is peer review. Climate
change deniers like Trump and his tribe should propose and support
repeal and replacement of peer review. The obvious and sure to be
popular solution is a reality TV show where the tribe's respected
minds such as Honey Boo Boo and any Kardashian, cage fight to the
death to decide the validity of every scientific issue. Watch this
movie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy, which seems more and
more like a documentary, to see where we're headed.


??

https://www.skepticalscience.com/pee...edskeptics.php

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...sus-ian-tuttle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...global_warming

https://www.nas.org/articles/Estimat...lobal_Warming\

etc etc etc

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 06:48:59 +0700,
wrote:


I assume that you will be properly amazed to discover that the ground
temperature, on a parking lot as you describe, is dissipated very
rapidly as one gains altitude and the formula temp loss = ~3.5 degrees
(F) per 1000 ft. is generally fairly accurate for altitudes up to
about 40,000 ft. So your radiosonde temperatures taken at 40,000 ft
will have very little relationship to what the temperature on the
surface of your parking lot is.

Which is exactly why they sample up high. Sampling in that parking
lot gives you bogus numbers

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 06:48:59 +0700,
wrote:


What is really surprising is how adept you seem to be in ignoring it.

Given that most recording thermometers have been located in ...urban
areas, airports just off the flight lines, on asphalt parking lots
rather than in rural areas ...what do YOU think the temp readings will
show? Humm?
The boffins call those areas.."heat islands". Given that until
recently, most measurements were made smack dab in the middle of those
"heat islands"...just how realistic do you think they are? Hummm?

Lets look at an infrared photo from above the Boston area shall we?
http://www.urbanheatislands.com/_/rs...urban_area.png

So tell me...which part of the photo has the correct overall
temperature? Hummm? Snicker....

http://www.urbanheatislands.com/\

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2015/11/1...-temperatures/

You may wish to read this article by a very respected meterologist

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&u act=8&ved=0ahUKEwib55Xz7bXLAhVG0GMKHe2UAOUQFggxMAM &url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.friendsofscience.org%2Fasset s%2Fdocuments%2FFoS_Urban%2520Heat%2520Island.pdf& usg=AFQjCNF1MWDH7FlW8-4F-zibGg1Qk-mghw&sig2=kLkf1w7gAXVA_kGsfoCCMw

Sorry about the long link..I dont know how to shorten it. Its a PDF
file. Get back to me AFTER you read it.

And even worse, both charts show a very distinct temperature change
from year to year.

Of course there is a temperature change from year to year. No two
years are ever the same. And? Its the long term average that is
used..not one year to the next. Im a dummy...but even I know that.

Do you really think that air temperature at 40,000 ft. is a realistic
indication of global, or any other sort of, warming? Especially when
it varies every year?

Yep. Or are you claiming that the temperature measured in downtown
Boston should be the calibration point? Really?

They say that "Early to bed and early to rise makes a man healthy,
wealthy and wise", but apparently actually reading one's references
before opening one's mouth helps a lot in the "Wise" department.

So does knowing something about the subject. Apparently you seem to
jump on and wave around data points you have no comprehension about.
If Im the self admitted dummy...son..you are as stupid as a stone
statue.

Gunner

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
--
Cheers,

Schweik

What is really surprising is how adept you seem to be in ignoring it.

Snerk!!

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 15:28:03 -0800, wrote:

were fully funded and didn't need to lie for the gov't paycheck.

What a load of crap you feed on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climat...il_controversy

Which reminds me of something I always find mind boggling... Larry
could have looked that up a long time ago. Instead, he has probably
written, read, and ranted about his logical fallacy hundreds of times
longer than it would have taken to get his facts straight in the first
place. I guarantee you his preference for such dumb choices has
manifested itself weekly if not daily for his entire life. Where
others make a mistake and say "I won't do that again," people like
Larry refuse to learn. And they love to take their mistaken
assumptions and flesh them out with bizarre side notions and
conspiracy theories. Something like buying a rusted out, engineless
Pinto and decorating it with deer whistles and a Class lll trailer
hitch.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...organised.html

http://www.thenewamerican.com/tech/e...ng-in-15-years

Need more, Bozo?

On Sat, 12 Mar 2016 12:18:32 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 20:20:05 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 19:25:29 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


That's a case where I think the economics favor grid power, because
of
the high cost and limited cycle life of vented deep-cycle batteries.

That it does, but what happens when (not if) the grid goes tits-up?

We return to the 1800's and DIY steam power, the Good Old Days. But I
suspect that a deteriorating, unreliable electricity supply as in
India would switch the helplessly codependent Greenies from blocking
construction to screaming about their NEEDS!! before it did more than
annoy the more technically competent of us. This neighborhood bands
together and shares resources, one generator serves three houses. I
contribute 100' extension cords and repairs to carbs and electrical
systems, and one of my Coleman gennys has spent almost its entire
operating life powering the house across the street.

Perhaps Gunner's Cull will "reduce" the Green needs. wink



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_India_blackouts
"The nation suffers from frequent power outages that last as long as
10 hours."

How often are you equalizing? The last article I read said that it
drops battery life considerably if you do it very often. I think
the
article was in HomePower mag. No equalization can drop the life,
too,
so there's a balance.

Every manufacturer's advice is slightly different, and a battery's
behavor changes as it ages. I think the least damaging method that's
still adequate is to charge at 1% to 2% of the 20-hour-rate capacity
until the voltage rises to 14.8V for flooded or whatever the maker
says for AGMs. I charge unmarked ones to 14.4V at less than half an
amp.

OK.


Usually I use an unregulated rectifier + capacitor charger adjusted to
the individual battery with a Variac. The cap I added to the charger
stabilizes the voltage and current meter readings. "Dumb" rectifier
chargers automatically taper down the current as the voltage rises.
The next time I walk by I check the meters and turn up the Variac.

More automation, I see.


One is a 1970's Schauer charger with a small 3 Amp Variac added in,
the other a homebrew that puts out 0 - 35V at up to 15A, with a 1/10
Farad filter cap. Since they don't have an output regulator they
aren't susceptible to damage from battery voltage being fed back into
the unpowered circuit if the AC is interrupted. You can protect a lab
supply from that with a series diode but then the voltmeter will be
useless.

Useless or merely off by .3v?


I don't equalize vehicle batteries very hard unless the hydrometer or
charging behavior reveals a weak cell. The smaller colored-bead type
is enough to show significant differences and works better on small
riding mower batteries with small caps and little free liquid..

I've forgotten to ask about your battery stack. Whatcha got?


If they are sulfated / corroded / whatever and won't accept current at
14.4V I apply 15V to 16V and keep an eye on the current, which is
typically under 100mA until they start to recover, then it rises and
may need to be limited due to the otherwise excessive charging
voltage. This is the case where a Smart Charger gives up, but a smart
user can salvage the battery. These numbers are all from makers' data
sheets. I just pick the more conservative ones and procedures that can
safely be left unattended.

What kind of new life do you get from the salvaged batts?


My 5-year-old HF '45W' kit supplies 0.6A per panel, making it good
current-limited source for gently conditioning batteries. I made an
LM350 variable regulator to fine-tune the charging voltage and
current. An LM338 will pass more current, I chose the LM350 to protect
some nice 3A meters I found.
http://www.eleccircuit.com/adjustabl...a-using-lm338/
D1 protects IC1 from higher voltage on the output than input, as I
mentioned above.

I picked up some LM317s + heatsinks cheap, and was thinking about the
same use.


Active, adjustable current limiting is conspicuously absent from
commercial battery chargers. I've read that "Pulse" desulfating is
really only a cheap substitute for building in a current limiter. At
Segway I learned how to use a lab-type adjustable power supply to meet
almost any battery charging requirement except fast-charging NiCd and
NiMH. The problem is that it requires a careful, attentive and well
informed user such as an electronic lab technician, NOT the average
mechanical engineer.

g


stratified electrolyte by bubbling. That's one of those inconvenient
solutions only the inventer would tolerate, and impractical for
batteries heavier than Group 31.

Why not vent them well rather than schlepping? MUCH less work.
Enclosed battery space, right? Fan on the inside, window to the
outside? For a more exciting removal of the hydrogen, just burn it
off. (Disclaimer: Kids, don't try this at home.)

When I rebuild the tool shed I plan to leave space for battery shelves
in a separate cabinet on an outside wall. I've had too much trouble
containing liquids like hydraulic fluid to assume I could safely
control invisible hydrogen. I don't have or plan to acquire nearly
enough batteries to fill it so the remaining space will probably be
for lawn and garden chemicals.

I have an old fridge for chemicals.


How much of an actual problem has the temperature swing been for you?
Batteries work well enough outdoors in cars here, where the temps run
from +100F to -10F. When I lived an hour further north it sometimes
dropped to -30F.

No problems, but I'm not heavily using the batteries, nor am I
carefully monitoring their capacities. Not a prob, I don't think.
Temps (most years) run 20-109F, with (every few years) a few days down
to 5F. I've had one burst pipe (outside plumbing, valved!) and one
freezeup (4 hours of portable 1.5KW heater under house fixed that) in
the 14 years I've been here. The first damage I get in plumbing in
the future, I'll replace all the old galv pipe with PEX and put foam
insulation around all of it, for good measure. It won't burst again.
I'd likely get a better flow, too. Pipes are ca 1967.


Being able to watch and limit the charging current spares me from the
uncertainties of voltage-controlled charging. I use the
voltage-vs-temperature table only to determine state of charge and
know when they are fully topped off..

OK. Do you do full-lot, batches, or individual battery charging?


Good idea. Generators are also more costly than grid power.

I once figured about half a buck per KWH. My system is for standy use
only, but I need to test it and exercise the generators.

Solar used to be 25-cents/kWh, but is less now. I'm figuring a cost
of about a buck a watt for purchase of the system, so I'll need to get
$3k together for the systems I want.

One quote for south-facing flat panel setup:
Here in GP, 1.8KW of panels will produce 2,277KWH annually, about
$0.05/KW over a 25 year lifetime. Hmm, forgot replacement batteries
($2k): $0.10 per. No gas purchase/storage/fumes/refills, no rebuilds,
no tuneups, just pure energy. I love the simplicity of solar.


The Interstate battery I put in the truck in 2002 receives a top-off
charge every month or two and is still in good condition, judging by
the electrolyte gravity and the time it will run the headlights
without dropping too far.

13+ years? Not bad. I just replaced my Tundra battery last year,
so
I got 9 on the original.

Did you do anything to maintain it?
I caught one cell on my truck battery dropping out a few years ago and
began charging it and checking the level more often. It seems to have
recovered.

No. It never seemed to use water, and after 4 years, I don't even
look at batteries, I just replace them (in vehicles.) ONE stranding
per lifetime is all you need to move to that route. I love canned
terminal protectant. I clean the terms, spray them down, and seldom
have to approach them again during the life of the battery.
I heart purple goo.


I wish LiFePO batteries were 10x cheaper now. I'd get a few KW of
those instead of LA. Tesla keeps making strong drops in pricing on
their battery tech. A couple 10kw modules would be nice, eh?

A friend is getting a quote from Solar City, which is connected to
Tesla. When the engineers come by I'm going to find out as much as I
can about the technical possibilities. Their site is useless.

It's a fact-filled site...if you're a clueless sheeple consumer.
Please let me know what you find out, although I'll never be able to
afford one, let alone two.


Segway stores large pallets of Lithium batteries at the factory. The
fire department's practice response for a large Class D fire next to a
river was awesome.
http://www.fire-extinguisher101.com/class-d-fires.html

I'll keep a pound or two of baking soda handy for my metal fires.


I needed to use a very reactive Lithium compound for an organic
synthesis and a helpful grad student came over to break off a chunk
from the rock-like mass in the can. As soon as he tapped the chisel it
burst into brilliant crimson flame and all we could do was pull down
the fume hood door and watch it all go up, then go request another
can.

Ouch! But pretty, huh?

--
Our main business is not to see what lies dimly at
a distance but to do what lies clearly at hand.
--Thomas Carlyle

On Sat, 12 Mar 2016 17:58:13 -0800 (PST), whit3rd
wrote:

On Saturday, March 12, 2016 at 3:05:32 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:

I suspect that the truth of the matter is that the temperature is
getting warmer and no one actually knows why nor whether this is
simply an anomaly or indicative of the beginning of a major
temperature cycle.

Get better suspicions. The effect was predictable, has
a known cause. No knowledge, however, predicts any natural
recovery to the initial state, as a "cycle" would suggest.

I see, so there was no recovery from the "little ice age" when the
Thames river used to freeze over, or, for that matter the temperature
cycles that are know to have occurred for the past 400,000 years that
have been plotted from ice cores?

The "simply an anomaly" label suggests we should not try to understand it.
Related language: "ideopathic", "unknown and unknowable", "great mystery",
"will of God".

According to an English dictionary "anomaly ~ noun -
deviation from the normal or common order or form or rule"

Nothing about "unknown", "great mystery", or your other suggestions.

--
cheers,

John B.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 12 Mar 2016 12:18:32 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


That it does, but what happens when (not if) the grid goes
tits-up?

We return to the 1800's and DIY steam power, the Good Old Days. But
I
suspect that a deteriorating, unreliable electricity supply as in
India would switch the helplessly codependent Greenies from blocking
construction to screaming about their NEEDS!! before it did more
than
annoy the more technically competent of us. This neighborhood bands
together and shares resources, one generator serves three houses. I
contribute 100' extension cords and repairs to carbs and electrical
systems, and one of my Coleman gennys has spent almost its entire
operating life powering the house across the street.

Perhaps Gunner's Cull will "reduce" the Green needs. wink

Historically the Left has begun the revolutions, violently, and the
Right has ended them, even more violently.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Commune
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarian_Soviet_Republic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_War
"Trade unionists were targeted for assassination by the Peronist and
Marxist guerrillas as early as 1969."

Usually I use an unregulated rectifier + capacitor charger adjusted
to
the individual battery with a Variac. The cap I added to the charger
stabilizes the voltage and current meter readings. "Dumb" rectifier
chargers automatically taper down the current as the voltage rises.
The next time I walk by I check the meters and turn up the Variac.

More automation, I see.

I built automated test equipment for a living back in the relay logic
days.

One is a 1970's Schauer charger with a small 3 Amp Variac added in,
the other a homebrew that puts out 0 - 35V at up to 15A, with a 1/10
Farad filter cap. Since they don't have an output regulator they
aren't susceptible to damage from battery voltage being fed back
into
the unpowered circuit if the AC is interrupted. You can protect a
lab
supply from that with a series diode but then the voltmeter will be
useless.

Useless or merely off by .3v?

The drop varies with the current. The Schottkys I bought from China
for my leaky second-hand roof panels have forward drops clustered at
or above the top end of the data sheet value, around 0.4V, and barely
meet the reverse breakdown spec.

The MDQ-100A, 100A 1600V bridge rectifier I just bought to add to a
welder looks good so far, the megger reads over 500 megohms at 500V
reverse and Vf is 0.49V on my DMM. I haven't set up to measure Vf at
20A DC yet.

I've forgotten to ask about your battery stack. Whatcha got?

I gotta pair of 105A marine batteries and a small assortment of used
gel and AGMs, some given to me as dead, some that had been swapped on
a maintenance schedule. I trade in a hopeless ones when I buy a new
battery, so they don't just pile up. I'd rather turn them in and use
Lithiums if those become economically practical.

The engineers at Segway didn't let anything that couldn't be sold to
customers but still functioned go to waste. The scrap bins were
conveniently beside the exit, and anything good they came up with
could be demonstrated on Frog Days. As new guy I was too far down in
the queue to get anything valuable. The in-house machines we rode
around on had batteries with perhaps half or less of their original
capacity left.


The still-good original car battery and the U1R pulled from my tractor
for the winter are in marine battery boxes with fused charging leads
brought out to 45A Andersons. This way there's no spark within the box
when I top them off, they are easy to handle and the terminals are
covered. I turned my unused stock of nice flexible silicone-insulated
wire into extension cables for battery charging.

What kind of new life do you get from the salvaged batts?

I've had no luck restoring AGMs, and can get perhaps three more years
from U1 lawn tractor batteries with filler caps after an automatic
charger stopped charging them, IOW four times their normal life. I
haven't tried salvaging deep discharge batteries from golf carts or
forklifts yet. That will depend on how easy they are to obtain, and to
dispose of. Once batteries start to go they need frequent attention to
keep them alive, which can become an onerous chore for little return.
I've lost two brand new AGMs that I put in the jump starter and forgot
to keep charged for a couple of years.

My 5-year-old HF '45W' kit supplies 0.6A per panel, making it good
current-limited source for gently conditioning batteries. I made an
LM350 variable regulator to fine-tune the charging voltage and
current. An LM338 will pass more current, I chose the LM350 to
protect
some nice 3A meters I found.
http://www.eleccircuit.com/adjustabl...a-using-lm338/
D1 protects IC1 from higher voltage on the output than input, as I
mentioned above.

I picked up some LM317s + heatsinks cheap, and was thinking about
the
same use.

I replaced an LM317 with the LM350 because it can handle the HF kit's
full output without the risk of frying my pretty 3 Amp Triplett 321
ammeter. The LM317 was enough to top off the vehicle batteries,
though, as the current soon dropped to around half an Amp. .

OK. Do you do full-lot, batches, or individual battery charging?

The roof array charges the 24V pair for the APC in series, and a DPDT
switch on the voltmeter panel lets the smaller 12V HF kit top off each
individually, since they don't quite match in capacity. They are both
the same model from Batteries Plus, one bought a few years after the
other when I acquired the 24V APC UPS. The wires to the switch are
fused at the battery boxes because they create a possible shorting
hazard if the switch malfunctions. I also made the voltage and current
sense lead connections to the Bayite shunt with wired in-line fuse
holders.

Solar used to be 25-cents/kWh, but is less now. I'm figuring a cost
of about a buck a watt for purchase of the system, so I'll need to
get
$3k together for the systems I want.

One quote for south-facing flat panel setup:
Here in GP, 1.8KW of panels will produce 2,277KWH annually, about
$0.05/KW over a 25 year lifetime. Hmm, forgot replacement batteries
($2k): $0.10 per. No gas purchase/storage/fumes/refills, no
rebuilds,
no tuneups, just pure energy. I love the simplicity of solar.

The big unknown in the cost estimate is how many cycles the batteries
will give you, expecially if they aren't fully recharged each time. My
system won't fully recharge them automatically because it's set to
13.6V each to avoid hydrogen. I have them for power outages instead of
continuous use and plan to fully recharge them afterwards, quickly
outdoors or slowly over several days from the HF kit which is barely
enough to make them bubble very lightly just before it shuts off.

Segway stores large pallets of Lithium batteries at the factory. The
fire department's practice response for a large Class D fire next to
a
river was awesome.
http://www.fire-extinguisher101.com/class-d-fires.html

I'll keep a pound or two of baking soda handy for my metal fires.

It's good to have around lead batteries too, for the acid.

Don't buy a Hoverboard. I shim up the back of my Dell laptops to allow
airflow under the battery and to finger-check for heat. Probably the
batteries that didn't catch fire in 2006 are OK now.

--jsw

On Sat, 12 Mar 2016 22:54:09 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 15:28:03 -0800, wrote:

were fully funded and didn't need to lie for the gov't paycheck.

What a load of crap you feed on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climat...il_controversy

Which reminds me of something I always find mind boggling... Larry
could have looked that up a long time ago. Instead, he has probably
written, read, and ranted about his logical fallacy hundreds of times
longer than it would have taken to get his facts straight in the first
place. I guarantee you his preference for such dumb choices has
manifested itself weekly if not daily for his entire life. Where
others make a mistake and say "I won't do that again," people like
Larry refuse to learn. And they love to take their mistaken
assumptions and flesh them out with bizarre side notions and
conspiracy theories. Something like buying a rusted out, engineless
Pinto and decorating it with deer whistles and a Class lll trailer
hitch.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...organised.html

Ah, Gunner gets his scientific evidence from the Daily Mail, which
publishes science stories like these:

"Has NASA been keeping a huge UFO near earth secret from us?"

"Woman finds a phallic strawberry in her garden."

"Yew were always on my mind. The tree that looks like Elvis in
profile."

"Shocking sight of skinny model's flabby, cellulite-ridden buttock as
she walks down catwalk..."

You get the idea -- hard science. Hard-on strawberries, UFO
conspiracies and models with flabby butts. Shocking, simply shocking.
And global warming is a hoax, says the Daily Mail. g

Maybe you should try something a little less hyperbolic, like, say,
_The Economist_:

"...This led to a Daily Mail headline reading: "Climategate U-turn as
scientist at centre of row admits: There has been no global warming
since 1995."

"Since I've advocated a more explicit use of the word "lie", I'll go
ahead and follow my own advice: that Daily Mail headline is a lie.
Phil Jones did not say there had been no global warming since 1995; he
said the opposite.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democ...ange_and_media

The "lie" may actually have just been ignorance. The Daily Mail
reporter may not understand what "statistically significant" means.
Most people don't, unless they've studied statistics at the college
level. You, for example, certainly don't understand what it means. But
that doesn't stop you from quoting the mistakes.

Need more, Bozo?

Do you have anything you've actually read and understand?

--
Ed Huntress

On Sun, 13 Mar 2016 17:01:05 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Sat, 12 Mar 2016 17:58:13 -0800 (PST), whit3rd
wrote:

On Saturday, March 12, 2016 at 3:05:32 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:

I suspect that the truth of the matter is that the temperature is
getting warmer and no one actually knows why nor whether this is
simply an anomaly or indicative of the beginning of a major
temperature cycle.

Get better suspicions. The effect was predictable, has
a known cause. No knowledge, however, predicts any natural
recovery to the initial state, as a "cycle" would suggest.

I see, so there was no recovery from the "little ice age" when the
Thames river used to freeze over, or, for that matter the temperature
cycles that are know to have occurred for the past 400,000 years that
have been plotted from ice cores?

Your example proves the opposite of what you're saying, John. Think it
through again.



The "simply an anomaly" label suggests we should not try to understand it.
Related language: "ideopathic", "unknown and unknowable", "great mystery",
"will of God".

According to an English dictionary "anomaly ~ noun -
deviation from the normal or common order or form or rule"

Nothing about "unknown", "great mystery", or your other suggestions.

On Sun, 13 Mar 2016 11:24:46 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 12 Mar 2016 22:54:09 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

Ah, Gunner gets his scientific evidence from the Daily Mail, which
publishes science stories like these:

"Has NASA been keeping a huge UFO near earth secret from us?"

"Woman finds a phallic strawberry in her garden."

"Yew were always on my mind. The tree that looks like Elvis in
profile."

"Shocking sight of skinny model's flabby, cellulite-ridden buttock as
she walks down catwalk..."

You get the idea -- hard science. Hard-on strawberries, UFO
conspiracies and models with flabby butts. Shocking, simply shocking.
And global warming is a hoax, says the Daily Mail. g

Maybe you should try something a little less hyperbolic, like, say,
_The Economist_:

"...This led to a Daily Mail headline reading: "Climategate U-turn as
scientist at centre of row admits: There has been no global warming
since 1995."

"Since I've advocated a more explicit use of the word "lie", I'll go
ahead and follow my own advice: that Daily Mail headline is a lie.
Phil Jones did not say there had been no global warming since 1995; he
said the opposite.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democ...ange_and_media

The "lie" may actually have just been ignorance. The Daily Mail
reporter may not understand what "statistically significant" means.
Most people don't, unless they've studied statistics at the college
level. You, for example, certainly don't understand what it means. But
that doesn't stop you from quoting the mistakes.

Need more, Bozo?

Do you have anything you've actually read and understand?

No, of course not. He'd have trouble understanding the instructions
that come with a toothbrush. Must be his high snicker IQ.

On Sun, 13 Mar 2016 14:56:30 -0700, wrote:

On Sun, 13 Mar 2016 11:24:46 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 12 Mar 2016 22:54:09 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

Ah, Gunner gets his scientific evidence from the Daily Mail, which
publishes science stories like these:

"Has NASA been keeping a huge UFO near earth secret from us?"

"Woman finds a phallic strawberry in her garden."

"Yew were always on my mind. The tree that looks like Elvis in
profile."

"Shocking sight of skinny model's flabby, cellulite-ridden buttock as
she walks down catwalk..."

You get the idea -- hard science. Hard-on strawberries, UFO
conspiracies and models with flabby butts. Shocking, simply shocking.
And global warming is a hoax, says the Daily Mail. g

Maybe you should try something a little less hyperbolic, like, say,
_The Economist_:

"...This led to a Daily Mail headline reading: "Climategate U-turn as
scientist at centre of row admits: There has been no global warming
since 1995."

"Since I've advocated a more explicit use of the word "lie", I'll go
ahead and follow my own advice: that Daily Mail headline is a lie.
Phil Jones did not say there had been no global warming since 1995; he
said the opposite.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democ...ange_and_media

The "lie" may actually have just been ignorance. The Daily Mail
reporter may not understand what "statistically significant" means.
Most people don't, unless they've studied statistics at the college
level. You, for example, certainly don't understand what it means. But
that doesn't stop you from quoting the mistakes.

Need more, Bozo?

Do you have anything you've actually read and understand?

No, of course not. He'd have trouble understanding the instructions
that come with a toothbrush. Must be his high snicker IQ.

I keep forgetting what he said it was, 154 or 157? Or did he up the
ante from there, somewhere along the line? d8-)

--
Ed Huntress