http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/02/bu...=tw-share&_r=0

"Seeking to increase pressure on McDonald’s, Wendy’s and other fast-food restaurants, organizers of a movement demanding a $15-an-hour wage for fast-food workers say they will sponsor one-day strikes in 100 cities on Thursday and protest activities in 100 additional cities.

As the movement struggles to find pressure points in its quest for substantially higher wages for workers, organizers said strikes were planned for the first time in cities like Charleston, S.C.; Providence, R.I.; and Pittsburgh.

The protests have expanded greatly since November 2012, when 200 fast-food workers engaged in a one-day strike at more than 20 restaurants in New York City, the first such walkout in the history of the nation’s fast-food industry.

“There’s been pretty huge growth in one year,” said Kendall Fells, one of the movement’s main organizers. “People understand that a one-day strike is not going to get them there. They understand that this needs to continue to grow.”

The movement, which includes the groups Fast Food Forward and Fight for 15, is part of a growing union-backed effort by low-paid workers — including many Walmart workers and workers for federal contractors — that seeks to focus attention on what the groups say are inadequate wages.

The fast-food effort is backed by the Service Employees International Union and is also demanding that restaurants allow workers to unionize without the threat of retaliation.

Officials with the National Restaurant Association have said the one-day strikes are publicity stunts. They warn that increasing pay to $15 an hour when the federal minimum wage is $7.25 would cause restaurants to rely more on automation and hire fewer workers.

Industry officials say that only a small percentage of fast-food jobs pay the minimum wage and that those are largely entry-level jobs for workers under 25.

Backers of the movement for higher pay point to studies saying that the average age of fast-food workers is 29 and that more than one-fourth are parents raising children.

Simon Rojas, who earns $8.07 an hour working at a McDonald’s in South Central Los Angeles, said he would join Thursday’s one-day strike.

“It’s very difficult to live off $8.07 an hour,” said Mr. Rojas, 23, noting that he is often assigned just 20 or 25 hours of work a week. “I have to live with my parents. I would like to be able to afford a car and an apartment.”

Mr. Rojas said he had studied for a pharmacy technician’s certificate, but he had been unable to save the $100 needed to apply for a license.

On Aug. 29, fast-food strikes took place in more than 50 cities. This week’s expanded protests will be joined by numerous community, faith and student groups, including USAction and United Students against Sweatshops."

"jon_banquer" wrote in message
...
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/02/bu...=tw-share&_r=0

"Seeking to increase pressure on McDonald’s, Wendy’s and other fast-food
restaurants, organizers of a movement demanding a $15-an-hour wage for
fast-food workers say they will sponsor one-day strikes in 100 cities on
Thursday and protest activities in 100 additional cities.

Good, america will be healthier if fast food is shut down,
detox, get healthy, lose weight, live long and prosper.

Best Regards.
Tom.

On Mon, 2 Dec 2013 23:27:57 -0800 (PST), jon_banquer
wrote:

Officials with the National Restaurant Association have said the one-day
strikes are publicity stunts. They warn that increasing pay to $15 an hour
when the federal minimum wage is $7.25 would cause restaurants to rely more
on automation and hire fewer workers.

Industry officials say that only a small percentage of fast-food jobs pay
the minimum wage and that those are largely entry-level jobs for workers
under 25.
========================

This bourgeoisie B/S goes back to at least the gilded age*
of Hanna/McKinley and the robber barons when the workers at
last began to unionize and push back. The only thing missing
is blaming "outside agitators" for stirring up trouble among
the contented masses on the plantation.

It is highly dangerous delusion and rationalization, and an
insult to anyone who has studied history**.

From the gilded age:
“The rights and interests of the laboring man will be
protected and cared for—not by the labor agitators, but by
the Christian men to who God in His infinite wisdom has
given the control of the property interests of this country.
.. .”
George F. Baker of Philadelphia and Reading Coal & Iron
July 1 1902
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Fisher_Baker
http://archive.org/stream/yearsofplu...srich_djvu.txt

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilded_Age

**
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_h..._United_States

On Mon, 2 Dec 2013 23:50:00 -0800, "Howard Beal"
wrote:


"jon_banquer" wrote in message
...
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/02/bu...=tw-share&_r=0

"Seeking to increase pressure on McDonald’s, Wendy’s and other fast-food
restaurants, organizers of a movement demanding a $15-an-hour wage for
fast-food workers say they will sponsor one-day strikes in 100 cities on
Thursday and protest activities in 100 additional cities.

Good, america will be healthier if fast food is shut down,
detox, get healthy, lose weight, live long and prosper.

Best Regards.
Tom.

15$ an hour to say, "With Fries Sir?"
--
Cheers,

John B.

My prediction: in 15 years, the average number of employees at a
McDonalds fast food restaurant will be between 1 and 2. Everything
else will be automated. There is no reason to have so many people
there working.

i

On Mon, 2 Dec 2013 23:50:00 -0800, "Howard Beal"
wrote:


"jon_banquer" wrote in message
...
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/02/bu...=tw-share&_r=0

"Seeking to increase pressure on McDonald’s, Wendy’s and other fast-food
restaurants, organizers of a movement demanding a $15-an-hour wage for
fast-food workers say they will sponsor one-day strikes in 100 cities on
Thursday and protest activities in 100 additional cities.

Good, america will be healthier if fast food is shut down,
detox, get healthy, lose weight, live long and prosper.

Yeah, just like cigarette taxes forced the massed to quit.
Uh, huh.

Taco Bell is the only civilized fast-food place to eat, and it's
cheap, now. I wonder what a taco will cost when wages are doubled...

P.S: TB is high in sodium but lower in fat and cholesterol than any of
the other restaurants, and tacos are pretty well balanced meal, with
greens, cheese, meat, and carbs.

--
Just as a picture is drawn by an artist, surroundings
are created by the activities of the mind.

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 08:54:01 -0600, Ignoramus19407
wrote:

My prediction: in 15 years, the average number of employees at a
McDonalds fast food restaurant will be between 1 and 2. Everything
else will be automated. There is no reason to have so many people
there working.

Absolutely. My buddy in LoCal is automating factories all around
Sandy Eggo county now. He's done hard candy factories, chocolate
factories, digital embroidery factories, and is now working (for the
past 6 months) on a soap factory automation scheme. He says the
average loss of employees is over 50%, with some at 90%. One guy
receives shipping and loads the hoppers, and presses the GO button
while the other guy stacks boxed product, ships stuff out, and answers
the phone.

Fast food will come entirely premade with none of this silly "Have It
Your Way" crap to interfere with the profits. It's not like the fast
food addicts will have any say, just as smokers don't have any say as
to the 140 different chemicals, pesticides, and known carcinogens used
on their tobacco. Viva Monsanto! cringe

--
Just as a picture is drawn by an artist, surroundings
are created by the activities of the mind.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...

Fast food will come entirely premade with none of this silly "Have
It
Your Way" crap to interfere with the profits. It's not like the fast
food addicts will have any say, just as smokers don't have any say
as
to the 140 different chemicals, pesticides, and known carcinogens
used
on their tobacco. Viva Monsanto! cringe

Premade fast food has been around for a while, as White Castle and
AdvancePierre frozen burgers in the grocery store.
http://www.advancepierre.com/Divisions/Foodservice.aspx

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 08:36:12 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Mon, 2 Dec 2013 23:27:57 -0800 (PST), jon_banquer
wrote:

Officials with the National Restaurant Association have said the one-day
strikes are publicity stunts. They warn that increasing pay to $15 an hour
when the federal minimum wage is $7.25 would cause restaurants to rely more
on automation and hire fewer workers.

Industry officials say that only a small percentage of fast-food jobs pay
the minimum wage and that those are largely entry-level jobs for workers
under 25.
========================

This bourgeoisie B/S goes back to at least the gilded age*
of Hanna/McKinley and the robber barons when the workers at
last began to unionize and push back. The only thing missing
is blaming "outside agitators" for stirring up trouble among
the contented masses on the plantation.

Would that be like having union members who dont work for the picketed
store/business/restaurant outside picketing and claiming to be
employees of said business?

It is highly dangerous delusion and rationalization, and an
insult to anyone who has studied history**.

From the gilded age:
“The rights and interests of the laboring man will be
protected and cared for—not by the labor agitators, but by
the Christian men to who God in His infinite wisdom has
given the control of the property interests of this country.
. .”
George F. Baker of Philadelphia and Reading Coal & Iron
July 1 1902
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Fisher_Baker
http://archive.org/stream/yearsofplu...srich_djvu.txt

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilded_Age

**
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_h..._United_States



--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

---
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that's just silly.
Wages are determined by supply and demand.
Businesses raise wages until they get all the jobs filled.
As long as immigrants, legal or illegal, feel that they're
better off at McDonalds than their previous job, the wages
wont' rise.
Artificially forcing wages to rise just attracts more
people from lower wage jobs.
And it raises prices so the people whose jobs have been
taken can't afford 'em.

People come here for a better life, take American jobs,
then bitch that it's
not better enough. Send 'em back to their own
country so we can recover this one.
Supply and demand will fix it.

If you can't live on McDonalds wages, you have the wrong job.
I'm unwilling to pay $20 for a burger so you can have a car.
And I'm really annoyed that I have to learn Spanish so I
can have it my way.

On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 10:49:56 AM UTC-5, Larry Jaques wrote:




Fast food will come entirely premade with none of this silly "Have It

Your Way" crap to interfere with the profits.

I think you are wrong. I think you will be able to place your order via your phone and have it made exactly how you like it as well as have it timed so it is ready about 30 seconds after you arrive. Should be no problem to have a program that will custom cook burgers and have them hot off the grill at any specified time.

Dan

On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 9:36:12 AM UTC-5, F. George McDuffee wrote:


This bourgeoisie B/S goes back to at least the gilded age*

of Hanna/McKinley and the robber barons when the workers at

last began to unionize and push back. The only thing missing

is blaming "outside agitators" for stirring up trouble among

the contented masses on the plantation.



It is highly dangerous delusion and rationalization, and an

insult to anyone who has studied history**.


I think your statement is an insult to anyone who has taken Economics in college. One of the basic tenants is that if you raise the price of something there is less demand for it. ie If you raise the cost of labor, there will be less demand for labor.

If raising the minimum wage to $15 / hour is good, why is raising it to $100 an hour bad? The answer is that the effects of raising the minimum wage are obvious if you raise it to $100 / hour.

On 2013-12-03, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 08:54:01 -0600, Ignoramus19407
wrote:

My prediction: in 15 years, the average number of employees at a
McDonalds fast food restaurant will be between 1 and 2. Everything
else will be automated. There is no reason to have so many people
there working.

Absolutely. My buddy in LoCal is automating factories all around
Sandy Eggo county now. He's done hard candy factories, chocolate
factories, digital embroidery factories, and is now working (for the
past 6 months) on a soap factory automation scheme. He says the
average loss of employees is over 50%, with some at 90%. One guy
receives shipping and loads the hoppers, and presses the GO button
while the other guy stacks boxed product, ships stuff out, and answers
the phone.


I agree up to here.

Fast food will come entirely premade with none of this silly "Have
It Your Way" crap to interfere with the profits. It's not like the
fast food addicts will have any say, just as smokers don't have any
say as to the 140 different chemicals, pesticides, and known
carcinogens used on their tobacco. Viva Monsanto! cringe

Not true. With an automated burger line, you can order your food the
way you like, with extra ketchup, cheese or whatever, and the machine
will not forget and mess up the order like people do.

i

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:22:47 -0800, mike
wrote:

snip
Wages are determined by supply and demand.
Businesses raise wages until they get all the jobs filled.
As long as immigrants, legal or illegal, feel that they're
better off at McDonalds than their previous job, the wages
wont' rise.
snip

Thanks for the explication/demonstration of how
unrestricted/illegal immigration "short-circuits" the tacit
assumptions required for the "free market" and law of supply
and demand to benignly / productively operate, as envisioned
by the neo-cons and "Washington Consensus" fanatics, but
which operationally results in a Kamikaze race to the
bottom. FWIW -- this also applies for the higher paying
jobs such as programmers and engineers, e.g. H1b.

On 2013-12-03, F George McDuffee wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:22:47 -0800, mike
wrote:

snip
Wages are determined by supply and demand.
Businesses raise wages until they get all the jobs filled.
As long as immigrants, legal or illegal, feel that they're
better off at McDonalds than their previous job, the wages
wont' rise.
snip

Thanks for the explication/demonstration of how
unrestricted/illegal immigration "short-circuits" the tacit
assumptions required for the "free market" and law of supply
and demand to benignly / productively operate, as envisioned
by the neo-cons and "Washington Consensus" fanatics, but
which operationally results in a Kamikaze race to the
bottom. FWIW -- this also applies for the higher paying
jobs such as programmers and engineers, e.g. H1b.



I do not think that a McDonalds franchisee can hire an illegal
immigrant.

Additionally, illegal immigrants are people too and they need to eat.

i

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 17:14:14 -0600, Ignoramus19407
wrote:

On 2013-12-03, F George McDuffee wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:22:47 -0800, mike
wrote:

snip
Wages are determined by supply and demand.
Businesses raise wages until they get all the jobs filled.
As long as immigrants, legal or illegal, feel that they're
better off at McDonalds than their previous job, the wages
wont' rise.
snip

Thanks for the explication/demonstration of how
unrestricted/illegal immigration "short-circuits" the tacit
assumptions required for the "free market" and law of supply
and demand to benignly / productively operate, as envisioned
by the neo-cons and "Washington Consensus" fanatics, but
which operationally results in a Kamikaze race to the
bottom. FWIW -- this also applies for the higher paying
jobs such as programmers and engineers, e.g. H1b.



I do not think that a McDonalds franchisee can hire an illegal
immigrant.

Really? Then you havent been in So Cal.

Additionally, illegal immigrants are people too and they need to eat.

i
So let them eat back in their home countries.


--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
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On Tue, 3 Dec 2013 11:10:13 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .

Fast food will come entirely premade with none of this silly "Have
It
Your Way" crap to interfere with the profits. It's not like the fast
food addicts will have any say, just as smokers don't have any say
as
to the 140 different chemicals, pesticides, and known carcinogens
used
on their tobacco. Viva Monsanto! cringe

Premade fast food has been around for a while, as White Castle and
AdvancePierre frozen burgers in the grocery store.
http://www.advancepierre.com/Divisions/Foodservice.aspx

Yabbut, at which _drive-thru_ can you buy one?

--
Just as a picture is drawn by an artist, surroundings
are created by the activities of the mind.

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 17:14:14 -0600, Ignoramus19407
wrote:

On 2013-12-03, F George McDuffee wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:22:47 -0800, mike
wrote:

snip
Wages are determined by supply and demand.
Businesses raise wages until they get all the jobs filled.
As long as immigrants, legal or illegal, feel that they're
better off at McDonalds than their previous job, the wages
wont' rise.
snip

Thanks for the explication/demonstration of how
unrestricted/illegal immigration "short-circuits" the tacit
assumptions required for the "free market" and law of supply
and demand to benignly / productively operate, as envisioned
by the neo-cons and "Washington Consensus" fanatics, but
which operationally results in a Kamikaze race to the
bottom. FWIW -- this also applies for the higher paying
jobs such as programmers and engineers, e.g. H1b.



I do not think that a McDonalds franchisee can hire an illegal
immigrant.

Some franchises probably would if they could get away with it.


Additionally, illegal immigrants are people too and they need to eat.

Not HERE they don't, damnit! They can get legal or get lost. mumble,
mumble LEGAL immigrants can eat here all they please.

--
Just as a picture is drawn by an artist, surroundings
are created by the activities of the mind.

On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 4:19:21 PM UTC-5, F. George McDuffee wrote:




This is one perspective. The other perspective is that all

of the taxpayers are currently subsidizing this cheap labor

through SNAP/food stamps, medicaid/mediCAL, subsidized

housing, etc.



Raising the minimum wage to a point where most social

services/safety net are no longer required will force the

labor costs back onto the for-profit company books where

these belong, preventing them from externalizing this cost

to society and the general taxpayer. From a Darwinian

viewpoint, if the companies can't make it without their

covert labor subsidy, so sad -- too bad. This is

Schumpter's "creative destruction*" in action, and their

successors/replacements will be able to pay their full labor

costs (or go out of business in turn).



It will not happen as you think it will. The companies will automate and reduce the number of employees. So more people will be without a job and the costs will increase for the general tax payer and society.

Have you looked at steel mills recently? Nucor runs their West Seattle mill with less than 20 people per shift. When I toured it, they were making rebar. Every thing was automated including the bundling of the finished rebar and tying the bundles with wire. There are no minimum wage jobs at the steel mill. The average wage was about $80,000 a few years back. The creative destruction has resulted in lower labor costs because there are fewer workers..

They have two plants that make fasteners. The grave yard shift runs with no employees on site.

Machine shops are also automated and have no minimum wage workers.

It costs society less to have people working and subsidising them. The alternative is to not have people working and have society pay all their expenses.

Dan

On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 7:40:32 PM UTC-5, F. George McDuffee wrote:


The entire point of my post is that we are already paying

15$/hr (or more). The employer pays part, and the rest is

paid by local, state and federal taxes in the form of SNAP,

Mediaid, subsidized housing, etc.


But people are employed. The alternative is to not have people work and pay all of the costs from local , state , and federal taxes.




Thus it would seem that both the progressives and neo-cons

should be in favor of forcing labor (and many other) costs

back on to the company books, albeit for different reasons.



The worst person to lie to is yourself...

You are lying to yourself when you think that raising the minimum wage will reduce the cost to society. It will raise the cost to society by reducing the number of workers.
Dan

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 08:54:01 -0600, Ignoramus19407
wrote:

My prediction: in 15 years, the average number of employees at a
McDonalds fast food restaurant will be between 1 and 2. Everything
else will be automated. There is no reason to have so many people
there working.

i
In Singapore McDonalds hires retired people and has variable shifts so
that they can pretty much work when they want to. I talked to one
elderly woman working on the counter and she told me that she was
retired and really liked McDonalds as they let her work 4 hours a day,
3 days a week.

Singapore has no minimum wage law and I suppose that these old people
were paid less than someone supporting a family but the point is that
they liked to work there and appeared to be happy with the pay.
--
Cheers,

John B.

wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 7:40:32 PM UTC-5, F. George McDuffee wrote:


The entire point of my post is that we are already paying

15$/hr (or more). The employer pays part, and the rest is

paid by local, state and federal taxes in the form of SNAP,

Mediaid, subsidized housing, etc.


But people are employed. The alternative is to not have people work and
pay all of the costs from local , state , and federal taxes.




Thus it would seem that both the progressives and neo-cons

should be in favor of forcing labor (and many other) costs

back on to the company books, albeit for different reasons.



The worst person to lie to is yourself...

You are lying to yourself when you think that raising the minimum wage
will reduce the cost to society. It will raise the cost to society by
reducing the number of workers.
Dan

Automation will advance regardless of what the minimum wage is. In the very
near future many manual
labor jobs will become obsolete, remember meter readers? The big question
that no one has an answer
for is what will all the displaced under educated workers do to earn a
living. The cost to society will be
great.

Best Regards.
Tom.

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 07:42:01 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 2 Dec 2013 23:50:00 -0800, "Howard Beal"
wrote:


"jon_banquer" wrote in message
...
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/02/bu...=tw-share&_r=0

"Seeking to increase pressure on McDonald’s, Wendy’s and other fast-food
restaurants, organizers of a movement demanding a $15-an-hour wage for
fast-food workers say they will sponsor one-day strikes in 100 cities on
Thursday and protest activities in 100 additional cities.

Good, america will be healthier if fast food is shut down,
detox, get healthy, lose weight, live long and prosper.

Yeah, just like cigarette taxes forced the massed to quit.
Uh, huh.

Taco Bell is the only civilized fast-food place to eat, and it's
cheap, now. I wonder what a taco will cost when wages are doubled...

P.S: TB is high in sodium but lower in fat and cholesterol than any of
the other restaurants, and tacos are pretty well balanced meal, with
greens, cheese, meat, and carbs.

Sort of like a cheeseburger with lettuce and tomato with a side of
fries?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 15:30:57 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:22:47 -0800, mike
wrote:

snip
Wages are determined by supply and demand.
Businesses raise wages until they get all the jobs filled.
As long as immigrants, legal or illegal, feel that they're
better off at McDonalds than their previous job, the wages
wont' rise.
snip

Thanks for the explication/demonstration of how
unrestricted/illegal immigration "short-circuits" the tacit
assumptions required for the "free market" and law of supply
and demand to benignly / productively operate, as envisioned
by the neo-cons and "Washington Consensus" fanatics, but
which operationally results in a Kamikaze race to the
bottom. FWIW -- this also applies for the higher paying
jobs such as programmers and engineers, e.g. H1b.


But one of the major reasons for the U.S. encouraging immigration was
to have a source of low paid labor. Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire,
for example killed 146 people, mainly immigrants, the canals and
railroads were built with, largely, Irish immigrant workers.

In addition, mandating wages based on local conditions effects
international trade to the extent that I can think of no product
actually manufactured in the U.S. that is sold here in Thailand.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 3 Dec 2013 20:07:46 -0800, "Howard Beal"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 7:40:32 PM UTC-5, F. George McDuffee wrote:


The entire point of my post is that we are already paying

15$/hr (or more). The employer pays part, and the rest is

paid by local, state and federal taxes in the form of SNAP,

Mediaid, subsidized housing, etc.


But people are employed. The alternative is to not have people work and
pay all of the costs from local , state , and federal taxes.




Thus it would seem that both the progressives and neo-cons

should be in favor of forcing labor (and many other) costs

back on to the company books, albeit for different reasons.



The worst person to lie to is yourself...

You are lying to yourself when you think that raising the minimum wage
will reduce the cost to society. It will raise the cost to society by
reducing the number of workers.
Dan

Automation will advance regardless of what the minimum wage is. In the very
near future many manual
labor jobs will become obsolete, remember meter readers? The big question
that no one has an answer
for is what will all the displaced under educated workers do to earn a
living. The cost to society will be
great.

Best Regards.
Tom.

This has happened repeatedly throughout history..and many times since
the Industrial Revolution. Learn a new trade..or go down with the
ship.

I started fixing machine tools in machine shops in the mid 1990s.
Most..not all..but most machine shops had a majority of manual
machines. You had to turn cranks and read dials and know what the ****
you were doing to make parts. We started putting very affordable small
CNC lathes in..and some machinists refuse to learn to run and program
them. They were the first to go when their manual machines were sold.
The smart ones..learned to program and run their new CNC lathes. They
did very well financially.

It happened with the buggy whip makers etc etc etc.

The Luddites and the Wobblies are examples of what will happen when
things get desperate.....


--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

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On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 1:30:39 PM UTC-8, Rudy Canoza sock puppet:

The min. wage destroys employment - predicted by theory, confirmed

empirically.

More bull**** from "Rudy Canoza" a sock puppet for Jonathan Ball of Pasadena, CA

On 2013-12-04, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 17:14:14 -0600, Ignoramus19407
wrote:

On 2013-12-03, F George McDuffee wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:22:47 -0800, mike
wrote:

snip
Wages are determined by supply and demand.
Businesses raise wages until they get all the jobs filled.
As long as immigrants, legal or illegal, feel that they're
better off at McDonalds than their previous job, the wages
wont' rise.
snip

Thanks for the explication/demonstration of how
unrestricted/illegal immigration "short-circuits" the tacit
assumptions required for the "free market" and law of supply
and demand to benignly / productively operate, as envisioned
by the neo-cons and "Washington Consensus" fanatics, but
which operationally results in a Kamikaze race to the
bottom. FWIW -- this also applies for the higher paying
jobs such as programmers and engineers, e.g. H1b.



I do not think that a McDonalds franchisee can hire an illegal
immigrant.

Some franchises probably would if they could get away with it.

A lot of people could, and do, hire illegal aliens. But a McDonalds
franchisee cannot, they are overseen very heavily.


Additionally, illegal immigrants are people too and they need to eat.

Not HERE they don't, damnit! They can get legal or get lost. mumble,
mumble LEGAL immigrants can eat here all they please.

But they are people too.

i

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 2:56:34 PM UTC-5, F. George McDuffee wrote:


This just in, showing how even the largest US corporations

extort subsidies, and how this accelerates the kamikaze race

to the bottom, where the winners crash and burn *FIRST*.



Washington State government is thinking of raising the Washington State minimum wage to $15 an hour. No wonder Boeing is thinking of manufacturing the 777x some place else. They would do that regardless of incentives from different states.

Boeing is smarter than GM. GM thought the car competition in the U.S. was between GM and Ford/ Chrysler. And paying high wages was no problem because Ford and Chrysler would also have to pay high wages. Boeing knows it competition is all airplane manufacturers. Europe, China , Russia, Canada, Brazil. If it wore to stay in Washington State, it would crash and burn.

Dan

Ignoramus19407 wrote:

My prediction: in 15 years, the average number of employees at a
McDonalds fast food restaurant will be between 1 and 2. Everything
else will be automated. There is no reason to have so many people
there working.

Absolutely true. They already automate much of the drink dispensing,
much like starsucks uses super auto espresso machines that require no
skill to operate. All of these fast food / fast beverage places can
readily be automated to a much higher degree.

Beyond that, the minimum wage is nothing but a vote buying scam. Raising
the minimum wage simply triggers a cascade effect of economic
rebalancing such that the minimum wage worker is back to exactly the
same hours worked to buying power ratio as where they started after six
months to a year. The numbers on the pay check are larger, but it still
takes the same number of work hours to buy the same products as before.

Larry Jaques wrote:

Fast food will come entirely premade with none of this silly "Have It
Your Way" crap to interfere with the profits.

Not at all. Automation is quite capable of assembling your burger
without pickles if that's what you order. The food will not come
pre-made from some far away factory, the components will arrive the same
as they do now and will simply be prepared and assembled by machines
instead of the current low skill workers who usually screw up the order
anyway.

Howard Beal wrote:

Automation will advance regardless of what the minimum wage is. In the very
near future many manual
labor jobs will become obsolete, remember meter readers? The big question
that no one has an answer
for is what will all the displaced under educated workers do to earn a
living. The cost to society will be
great.

The problem is far worse than that actually. There is a current myth
that higher education will somehow eliminate the problem, but the
fundamental issue is not education, it is the fact that a smaller and
smaller percentage of the population is required to produce everything
the population needs. This means that you can have free higher ed. and
end up with soup kitchen lines full of PhDs with no jobs. What will
happen to wages for those high skilled jobs when there are 100 fully
qualified applicants for every available position? Can a Ph.D. engineer
operate a septic pumping truck better than a high school dropout? Will
that Ph.D. provide any advantage in finding a job when none are
available?

Ignoramus28714 wrote:

On 2013-12-04, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 17:14:14 -0600, Ignoramus19407
wrote:

On 2013-12-03, F George McDuffee wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:22:47 -0800, mike
wrote:

snip
Wages are determined by supply and demand.
Businesses raise wages until they get all the jobs filled.
As long as immigrants, legal or illegal, feel that they're
better off at McDonalds than their previous job, the wages
wont' rise.
snip

Thanks for the explication/demonstration of how
unrestricted/illegal immigration "short-circuits" the tacit
assumptions required for the "free market" and law of supply
and demand to benignly / productively operate, as envisioned
by the neo-cons and "Washington Consensus" fanatics, but
which operationally results in a Kamikaze race to the
bottom. FWIW -- this also applies for the higher paying
jobs such as programmers and engineers, e.g. H1b.



I do not think that a McDonalds franchisee can hire an illegal
immigrant.

Some franchises probably would if they could get away with it.

A lot of people could, and do, hire illegal aliens. But a McDonalds
franchisee cannot, they are overseen very heavily.


Additionally, illegal immigrants are people too and they need to eat.

Not HERE they don't, damnit! They can get legal or get lost. mumble,
mumble LEGAL immigrants can eat here all they please.

But they are people too.

And their countries of origin are countries too and they need to get
back to them. Follow the rules and come here legally. If you don't like
the rules it doesn't give you license to ignore them.

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 11:40:04 AM UTC-5, jim wrote:




The truth is that you can't explain why Australia has

a lower unemployment rate even though the minimum wage

is twice as high in Australia compared to the US.


Where is your metal working content? I explained why Australia has a lower unemployment rate. It has nothing to do with the minimum wage. But you do not seem to understand that part.

So back to metal working. The only metal working today was cutting down a cookie pan that was slightly too big to go in the oven. Just used a hack saw to get close. A bench grinder got the cut streight, and a file and wire brush got rid of the sharp edges.

Dan

On Thu, 05 Dec 2013 13:06:35 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Ignoramus28714 wrote:

On 2013-12-04, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 17:14:14 -0600, Ignoramus19407
wrote:

On 2013-12-03, F George McDuffee wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:22:47 -0800, mike
wrote:

snip
Wages are determined by supply and demand.
Businesses raise wages until they get all the jobs filled.
As long as immigrants, legal or illegal, feel that they're
better off at McDonalds than their previous job, the wages
wont' rise.
snip

Thanks for the explication/demonstration of how
unrestricted/illegal immigration "short-circuits" the tacit
assumptions required for the "free market" and law of supply
and demand to benignly / productively operate, as envisioned
by the neo-cons and "Washington Consensus" fanatics, but
which operationally results in a Kamikaze race to the
bottom. FWIW -- this also applies for the higher paying
jobs such as programmers and engineers, e.g. H1b.



I do not think that a McDonalds franchisee can hire an illegal
immigrant.

Some franchises probably would if they could get away with it.

A lot of people could, and do, hire illegal aliens. But a McDonalds
franchisee cannot, they are overseen very heavily.


Additionally, illegal immigrants are people too and they need to eat.

Not HERE they don't, damnit! They can get legal or get lost. mumble,
mumble LEGAL immigrants can eat here all they please.

But they are people too.

And their countries of origin are countries too and they need to get
back to them. Follow the rules and come here legally. If you don't like
the rules it doesn't give you license to ignore them.
========================

In all fairness it should be noted that U.S. actions have
largely caused the flood of legal and undocumented
immigrants by destroying the employment opportunities and
sociocultural infrastructure in their own countries.

In most cases these policies were formulated and implemented
by the elitist cliques/blocs, with minimal to no input from
the general public, but with maximum perceived benefit for
the cliques, which range from massive global social
engineering on the progressive left to enormous personal
profits on the reactionary right.

For example, NAFTA was negotiated with minimal public
notice, and ratified with almost no serious evaluation. By
opening the Mexican agricultural sector to competition with
the gigantic American agribusinesses such as ADM, Cargill,
Monsanto, and the corporate factory farms, enormous profits
were indeed made, but the existing small-scale subsistence
farming that provided employment for hundreds of thousands
of people for generations was destroyed by the stroke of a
pen. This further destabilized what was already a unstable
economy, leading directly into the current problems of the
narcoeconomy. The Mexican cities are full, with minimal
employment opportunities, particularly for dispossessed
rural economic refugees, so in too many cases, its the US or
starvation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapatis...nal_Liberation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiapas_conflict
http://www.chiapas-support.org/main.htm

This is yet another [international] example of socializing
the costs but privatizing the profits. Most any activity,
no matter how stupid or short-sighted, can be extremely
profitable, if enough of the costs can externalized [foisted
off on someone else].

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 12:08:59 PM UTC-5, jim wrote:



That is a very feeble dodge of the question based

on what you hope would happen. You still are at a loss

to explain why the unemployment rate in Australia is lower

even though the minimum wage is twice as high.


Still not posting anything on topic. That is pretty much like the slobs that litter the road in front of my house. They also know better , but do it anyway.

Dan

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 1:21:55 PM UTC-5, Jeff M wrote:


The amazing thing is that you can be so cocksure yet ignorant of the

facts relevant to, and disproving of, your claim, all while using a

device that can bring you a world of factual data and scientific

research from any number of credible sources (and a bunch of

non-credible one that need to be filtered out) about just about any

topic you'd care to discuss. All you have to do is look it up and do a

little reading and thinking before you post. Or are you one of those

"go with your gut" types, like President Bush the Lesser?

So where is the metal working content? Maybe you are not competent enough to actually do any metalworking. If you can't do metalworking , what makes you think you can understand economics?


Dan

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 1:14:12 PM UTC-5, Jeff M wrote:


keep moving along. No metalworking content here.

Dan

"Pete C." wrote:

Ignoramus19407 wrote:

My prediction: in 15 years, the average number of employees at a
McDonalds fast food restaurant will be between 1 and 2. Everything
else will be automated. There is no reason to have so many people
there working.

Absolutely true. They already automate much of the drink dispensing,
much like starsucks uses super auto espresso machines that require no
skill to operate. All of these fast food / fast beverage places can
readily be automated to a much higher degree.

Beyond that, the minimum wage is nothing but a vote buying scam. Raising
the minimum wage simply triggers a cascade effect of economic
rebalancing such that the minimum wage worker is back to exactly the
same hours worked to buying power ratio as where they started after six
months to a year. The numbers on the pay check are larger, but it still
takes the same number of work hours to buy the same products as before.


A lot of long time restaurants and fast food places have closed around
here. Some were due to the downturn in new home construction, but some
just could no longer stay competitive and closed down. I saw another
one a few days ago. The property owner locked them out because they were
$26,000 behind on their lease payments. The prior tenant was a
Blockbuster store that went out of business.

--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 2:07:24 PM UTC-5, Billy wrote:


What kind of metalworking do you do? I read the entire post and did not find any reference to metalworking.

Dan

" wrote:

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 11:40:04 AM UTC-5, jim wrote:


The truth is that you can't explain why Australia has

a lower unemployment rate even though the minimum wage

is twice as high in Australia compared to the US.


I explained why Australia has a lower unemployment rate.
It has nothing to do with the minimum wage.

Sounds like you are saying the claim that a higher minimum wage
will produce high unemployment is bull****.

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