http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/02/bu...=tw-share&_r=0

"Seeking to increase pressure on McDonald’s, Wendy’s and other fast-food restaurants, organizers of a movement demanding a $15-an-hour wage for fast-food workers say they will sponsor one-day strikes in 100 cities on Thursday and protest activities in 100 additional cities.

As the movement struggles to find pressure points in its quest for substantially higher wages for workers, organizers said strikes were planned for the first time in cities like Charleston, S.C.; Providence, R.I.; and Pittsburgh.

The protests have expanded greatly since November 2012, when 200 fast-food workers engaged in a one-day strike at more than 20 restaurants in New York City, the first such walkout in the history of the nation’s fast-food industry.

“There’s been pretty huge growth in one year,” said Kendall Fells, one of the movement’s main organizers. “People understand that a one-day strike is not going to get them there. They understand that this needs to continue to grow.”

The movement, which includes the groups Fast Food Forward and Fight for 15, is part of a growing union-backed effort by low-paid workers — including many Walmart workers and workers for federal contractors — that seeks to focus attention on what the groups say are inadequate wages.

The fast-food effort is backed by the Service Employees International Union and is also demanding that restaurants allow workers to unionize without the threat of retaliation.

Officials with the National Restaurant Association have said the one-day strikes are publicity stunts. They warn that increasing pay to $15 an hour when the federal minimum wage is $7.25 would cause restaurants to rely more on automation and hire fewer workers.

Industry officials say that only a small percentage of fast-food jobs pay the minimum wage and that those are largely entry-level jobs for workers under 25.

Backers of the movement for higher pay point to studies saying that the average age of fast-food workers is 29 and that more than one-fourth are parents raising children.

Simon Rojas, who earns $8.07 an hour working at a McDonald’s in South Central Los Angeles, said he would join Thursday’s one-day strike.

“It’s very difficult to live off $8.07 an hour,” said Mr. Rojas, 23, noting that he is often assigned just 20 or 25 hours of work a week. “I have to live with my parents. I would like to be able to afford a car and an apartment.”

Mr. Rojas said he had studied for a pharmacy technician’s certificate, but he had been unable to save the $100 needed to apply for a license.

On Aug. 29, fast-food strikes took place in more than 50 cities. This week’s expanded protests will be joined by numerous community, faith and student groups, including USAction and United Students against Sweatshops."

"jon_banquer" wrote in message
...
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/02/bu...=tw-share&_r=0

"Seeking to increase pressure on McDonald’s, Wendy’s and other fast-food
restaurants, organizers of a movement demanding a $15-an-hour wage for
fast-food workers say they will sponsor one-day strikes in 100 cities on
Thursday and protest activities in 100 additional cities.

Good, america will be healthier if fast food is shut down,
detox, get healthy, lose weight, live long and prosper.

Best Regards.
Tom.

On Mon, 2 Dec 2013 23:50:00 -0800, "Howard Beal"
wrote:


"jon_banquer" wrote in message
...
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/02/bu...=tw-share&_r=0

"Seeking to increase pressure on McDonald’s, Wendy’s and other fast-food
restaurants, organizers of a movement demanding a $15-an-hour wage for
fast-food workers say they will sponsor one-day strikes in 100 cities on
Thursday and protest activities in 100 additional cities.

Good, america will be healthier if fast food is shut down,
detox, get healthy, lose weight, live long and prosper.

Best Regards.
Tom.

15$ an hour to say, "With Fries Sir?"
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 2 Dec 2013 23:50:00 -0800, "Howard Beal"
wrote:


"jon_banquer" wrote in message
...
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/02/bu...=tw-share&_r=0

"Seeking to increase pressure on McDonald’s, Wendy’s and other fast-food
restaurants, organizers of a movement demanding a $15-an-hour wage for
fast-food workers say they will sponsor one-day strikes in 100 cities on
Thursday and protest activities in 100 additional cities.

Good, america will be healthier if fast food is shut down,
detox, get healthy, lose weight, live long and prosper.

Yeah, just like cigarette taxes forced the massed to quit.
Uh, huh.

Taco Bell is the only civilized fast-food place to eat, and it's
cheap, now. I wonder what a taco will cost when wages are doubled...

P.S: TB is high in sodium but lower in fat and cholesterol than any of
the other restaurants, and tacos are pretty well balanced meal, with
greens, cheese, meat, and carbs.

--
Just as a picture is drawn by an artist, surroundings
are created by the activities of the mind.

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 07:42:01 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 2 Dec 2013 23:50:00 -0800, "Howard Beal"
wrote:


"jon_banquer" wrote in message
...
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/02/bu...=tw-share&_r=0

"Seeking to increase pressure on McDonald’s, Wendy’s and other fast-food
restaurants, organizers of a movement demanding a $15-an-hour wage for
fast-food workers say they will sponsor one-day strikes in 100 cities on
Thursday and protest activities in 100 additional cities.

Good, america will be healthier if fast food is shut down,
detox, get healthy, lose weight, live long and prosper.

Yeah, just like cigarette taxes forced the massed to quit.
Uh, huh.

Taco Bell is the only civilized fast-food place to eat, and it's
cheap, now. I wonder what a taco will cost when wages are doubled...

P.S: TB is high in sodium but lower in fat and cholesterol than any of
the other restaurants, and tacos are pretty well balanced meal, with
greens, cheese, meat, and carbs.

Sort of like a cheeseburger with lettuce and tomato with a side of
fries?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 2 Dec 2013 23:27:57 -0800 (PST), jon_banquer
wrote:

Officials with the National Restaurant Association have said the one-day
strikes are publicity stunts. They warn that increasing pay to $15 an hour
when the federal minimum wage is $7.25 would cause restaurants to rely more
on automation and hire fewer workers.

Industry officials say that only a small percentage of fast-food jobs pay
the minimum wage and that those are largely entry-level jobs for workers
under 25.
========================

This bourgeoisie B/S goes back to at least the gilded age*
of Hanna/McKinley and the robber barons when the workers at
last began to unionize and push back. The only thing missing
is blaming "outside agitators" for stirring up trouble among
the contented masses on the plantation.

It is highly dangerous delusion and rationalization, and an
insult to anyone who has studied history**.

From the gilded age:
“The rights and interests of the laboring man will be
protected and cared for—not by the labor agitators, but by
the Christian men to who God in His infinite wisdom has
given the control of the property interests of this country.
.. .”
George F. Baker of Philadelphia and Reading Coal & Iron
July 1 1902
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Fisher_Baker
http://archive.org/stream/yearsofplu...srich_djvu.txt

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilded_Age

**
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_h..._United_States

My prediction: in 15 years, the average number of employees at a
McDonalds fast food restaurant will be between 1 and 2. Everything
else will be automated. There is no reason to have so many people
there working.

i

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 08:54:01 -0600, Ignoramus19407
wrote:

My prediction: in 15 years, the average number of employees at a
McDonalds fast food restaurant will be between 1 and 2. Everything
else will be automated. There is no reason to have so many people
there working.

Absolutely. My buddy in LoCal is automating factories all around
Sandy Eggo county now. He's done hard candy factories, chocolate
factories, digital embroidery factories, and is now working (for the
past 6 months) on a soap factory automation scheme. He says the
average loss of employees is over 50%, with some at 90%. One guy
receives shipping and loads the hoppers, and presses the GO button
while the other guy stacks boxed product, ships stuff out, and answers
the phone.

Fast food will come entirely premade with none of this silly "Have It
Your Way" crap to interfere with the profits. It's not like the fast
food addicts will have any say, just as smokers don't have any say as
to the 140 different chemicals, pesticides, and known carcinogens used
on their tobacco. Viva Monsanto! cringe

--
Just as a picture is drawn by an artist, surroundings
are created by the activities of the mind.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...

Fast food will come entirely premade with none of this silly "Have
It
Your Way" crap to interfere with the profits. It's not like the fast
food addicts will have any say, just as smokers don't have any say
as
to the 140 different chemicals, pesticides, and known carcinogens
used
on their tobacco. Viva Monsanto! cringe

Premade fast food has been around for a while, as White Castle and
AdvancePierre frozen burgers in the grocery store.
http://www.advancepierre.com/Divisions/Foodservice.aspx

On Tue, 3 Dec 2013 11:10:13 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .

Fast food will come entirely premade with none of this silly "Have
It
Your Way" crap to interfere with the profits. It's not like the fast
food addicts will have any say, just as smokers don't have any say
as
to the 140 different chemicals, pesticides, and known carcinogens
used
on their tobacco. Viva Monsanto! cringe

Premade fast food has been around for a while, as White Castle and
AdvancePierre frozen burgers in the grocery store.
http://www.advancepierre.com/Divisions/Foodservice.aspx

Yabbut, at which _drive-thru_ can you buy one?

--
Just as a picture is drawn by an artist, surroundings
are created by the activities of the mind.

On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 10:49:56 AM UTC-5, Larry Jaques wrote:




Fast food will come entirely premade with none of this silly "Have It

Your Way" crap to interfere with the profits.

I think you are wrong. I think you will be able to place your order via your phone and have it made exactly how you like it as well as have it timed so it is ready about 30 seconds after you arrive. Should be no problem to have a program that will custom cook burgers and have them hot off the grill at any specified time.

Dan

On 2013-12-03, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 08:54:01 -0600, Ignoramus19407
wrote:

My prediction: in 15 years, the average number of employees at a
McDonalds fast food restaurant will be between 1 and 2. Everything
else will be automated. There is no reason to have so many people
there working.

Absolutely. My buddy in LoCal is automating factories all around
Sandy Eggo county now. He's done hard candy factories, chocolate
factories, digital embroidery factories, and is now working (for the
past 6 months) on a soap factory automation scheme. He says the
average loss of employees is over 50%, with some at 90%. One guy
receives shipping and loads the hoppers, and presses the GO button
while the other guy stacks boxed product, ships stuff out, and answers
the phone.


I agree up to here.

Fast food will come entirely premade with none of this silly "Have
It Your Way" crap to interfere with the profits. It's not like the
fast food addicts will have any say, just as smokers don't have any
say as to the 140 different chemicals, pesticides, and known
carcinogens used on their tobacco. Viva Monsanto! cringe

Not true. With an automated burger line, you can order your food the
way you like, with extra ketchup, cheese or whatever, and the machine
will not forget and mess up the order like people do.

i

Larry Jaques wrote:

Fast food will come entirely premade with none of this silly "Have It
Your Way" crap to interfere with the profits.

Not at all. Automation is quite capable of assembling your burger
without pickles if that's what you order. The food will not come
pre-made from some far away factory, the components will arrive the same
as they do now and will simply be prepared and assembled by machines
instead of the current low skill workers who usually screw up the order
anyway.

On 2013-12-05, Pete C. wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Fast food will come entirely premade with none of this silly "Have It
Your Way" crap to interfere with the profits.

Not at all. Automation is quite capable of assembling your burger
without pickles if that's what you order. The food will not come
pre-made from some far away factory, the components will arrive the same
as they do now and will simply be prepared and assembled by machines
instead of the current low skill workers who usually screw up the order
anyway.

Exactly. At our McDonalds, they screw up 40-50% of my orders, in
various ways.

i

On Thu, 05 Dec 2013 12:57:30 -0500, "Pete C."
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

Fast food will come entirely premade with none of this silly "Have It
Your Way" crap to interfere with the profits.

Not at all. Automation is quite capable of assembling your burger
without pickles if that's what you order. The food will not come
pre-made from some far away factory, the components will arrive the same
as they do now and will simply be prepared and assembled by machines
instead of the current low skill workers who usually screw up the order
anyway.

I still feel that costs are too high to accommodate choice and that
fast food will continue to reduce labor while automating the end store
with trucked, complete foods. Time will tell which of us is correct.

--
Make awkward sexual advances, not war.

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 08:54:01 -0600, Ignoramus19407
wrote:

My prediction: in 15 years, the average number of employees at a
McDonalds fast food restaurant will be between 1 and 2. Everything
else will be automated. There is no reason to have so many people
there working.

i
In Singapore McDonalds hires retired people and has variable shifts so
that they can pretty much work when they want to. I talked to one
elderly woman working on the counter and she told me that she was
retired and really liked McDonalds as they let her work 4 hours a day,
3 days a week.

Singapore has no minimum wage law and I suppose that these old people
were paid less than someone supporting a family but the point is that
they liked to work there and appeared to be happy with the pay.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Ignoramus19407 wrote:

My prediction: in 15 years, the average number of employees at a
McDonalds fast food restaurant will be between 1 and 2. Everything
else will be automated. There is no reason to have so many people
there working.

Absolutely true. They already automate much of the drink dispensing,
much like starsucks uses super auto espresso machines that require no
skill to operate. All of these fast food / fast beverage places can
readily be automated to a much higher degree.

Beyond that, the minimum wage is nothing but a vote buying scam. Raising
the minimum wage simply triggers a cascade effect of economic
rebalancing such that the minimum wage worker is back to exactly the
same hours worked to buying power ratio as where they started after six
months to a year. The numbers on the pay check are larger, but it still
takes the same number of work hours to buy the same products as before.

"Pete C." wrote:

Ignoramus19407 wrote:

My prediction: in 15 years, the average number of employees at a
McDonalds fast food restaurant will be between 1 and 2. Everything
else will be automated. There is no reason to have so many people
there working.

Absolutely true. They already automate much of the drink dispensing,
much like starsucks uses super auto espresso machines that require no
skill to operate. All of these fast food / fast beverage places can
readily be automated to a much higher degree.

Beyond that, the minimum wage is nothing but a vote buying scam. Raising
the minimum wage simply triggers a cascade effect of economic
rebalancing such that the minimum wage worker is back to exactly the
same hours worked to buying power ratio as where they started after six
months to a year. The numbers on the pay check are larger, but it still
takes the same number of work hours to buy the same products as before.


A lot of long time restaurants and fast food places have closed around
here. Some were due to the downturn in new home construction, but some
just could no longer stay competitive and closed down. I saw another
one a few days ago. The property owner locked them out because they were
$26,000 behind on their lease payments. The prior tenant was a
Blockbuster store that went out of business.

--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

On 2013-12-05, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

Ignoramus19407 wrote:

My prediction: in 15 years, the average number of employees at a
McDonalds fast food restaurant will be between 1 and 2. Everything
else will be automated. There is no reason to have so many people
there working.

Absolutely true. They already automate much of the drink dispensing,
much like starsucks uses super auto espresso machines that require no
skill to operate. All of these fast food / fast beverage places can
readily be automated to a much higher degree.

Beyond that, the minimum wage is nothing but a vote buying scam. Raising
the minimum wage simply triggers a cascade effect of economic
rebalancing such that the minimum wage worker is back to exactly the
same hours worked to buying power ratio as where they started after six
months to a year. The numbers on the pay check are larger, but it still
takes the same number of work hours to buy the same products as before.


A lot of long time restaurants and fast food places have closed around
here. Some were due to the downturn in new home construction, but some
just could no longer stay competitive and closed down. I saw another
one a few days ago. The property owner locked them out because they were
$26,000 behind on their lease payments. The prior tenant was a
Blockbuster store that went out of business.


Restaurants are constantly going out of business, this has been true
forever.

i

On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 6:54:01 AM UTC-8, Ignoramus19407 wrote:
My prediction: in 15 years, the average number of employees at a

McDonalds fast food restaurant will be between 1 and 2. Everything

else will be automated. There is no reason to have so many people

there working.



i

With McDonalds inability to give consumers the better food they want, I seriously doubt McDonalds will be around in 15 years.

If they are still around, it won't be serving the same kind of **** food they serve now.

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 08:36:12 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Mon, 2 Dec 2013 23:27:57 -0800 (PST), jon_banquer
wrote:

Officials with the National Restaurant Association have said the one-day
strikes are publicity stunts. They warn that increasing pay to $15 an hour
when the federal minimum wage is $7.25 would cause restaurants to rely more
on automation and hire fewer workers.

Industry officials say that only a small percentage of fast-food jobs pay
the minimum wage and that those are largely entry-level jobs for workers
under 25.
========================

This bourgeoisie B/S goes back to at least the gilded age*
of Hanna/McKinley and the robber barons when the workers at
last began to unionize and push back. The only thing missing
is blaming "outside agitators" for stirring up trouble among
the contented masses on the plantation.

Would that be like having union members who dont work for the picketed
store/business/restaurant outside picketing and claiming to be
employees of said business?

It is highly dangerous delusion and rationalization, and an
insult to anyone who has studied history**.

From the gilded age:
“The rights and interests of the laboring man will be
protected and cared for—not by the labor agitators, but by
the Christian men to who God in His infinite wisdom has
given the control of the property interests of this country.
. .”
George F. Baker of Philadelphia and Reading Coal & Iron
July 1 1902
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Fisher_Baker
http://archive.org/stream/yearsofplu...srich_djvu.txt

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilded_Age

**
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_h..._United_States



--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 9:36:12 AM UTC-5, F. George McDuffee wrote:


This bourgeoisie B/S goes back to at least the gilded age*

of Hanna/McKinley and the robber barons when the workers at

last began to unionize and push back. The only thing missing

is blaming "outside agitators" for stirring up trouble among

the contented masses on the plantation.



It is highly dangerous delusion and rationalization, and an

insult to anyone who has studied history**.


I think your statement is an insult to anyone who has taken Economics in college. One of the basic tenants is that if you raise the price of something there is less demand for it. ie If you raise the cost of labor, there will be less demand for labor.

If raising the minimum wage to $15 / hour is good, why is raising it to $100 an hour bad? The answer is that the effects of raising the minimum wage are obvious if you raise it to $100 / hour.

Follow-up

Earth calling McDonalds -- Earth calling McDonalds


http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...otest/3890393/
snip
As fast food workers walked off the job in 100 cities
Thursday amid demands for higher pay, the fast food giant
thought it was a good idea to dish out some holiday tip
suggestions to its employees — like how much to tip your
massage therapist or pool cleaner.
Posted on its employee resource website, the now-deleted
suggestions, including one week's pay for your au pair, add
up to hundreds of dollars or more — pretty steep for
employees who largely earn just above minimum wage, NBC News
reports, though it notes the guide also said to tip based on
"your budget."
snip
Other helpful budget tips from McDonald's included its
suggestions that McDonald's employees get a second job and
sell their stuff to raise extra cash.
snip

that's just silly.
Wages are determined by supply and demand.
Businesses raise wages until they get all the jobs filled.
As long as immigrants, legal or illegal, feel that they're
better off at McDonalds than their previous job, the wages
wont' rise.
Artificially forcing wages to rise just attracts more
people from lower wage jobs.
And it raises prices so the people whose jobs have been
taken can't afford 'em.

People come here for a better life, take American jobs,
then bitch that it's
not better enough. Send 'em back to their own
country so we can recover this one.
Supply and demand will fix it.

If you can't live on McDonalds wages, you have the wrong job.
I'm unwilling to pay $20 for a burger so you can have a car.
And I'm really annoyed that I have to learn Spanish so I
can have it my way.

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:22:47 -0800, mike
wrote:

snip
Wages are determined by supply and demand.
Businesses raise wages until they get all the jobs filled.
As long as immigrants, legal or illegal, feel that they're
better off at McDonalds than their previous job, the wages
wont' rise.
snip

Thanks for the explication/demonstration of how
unrestricted/illegal immigration "short-circuits" the tacit
assumptions required for the "free market" and law of supply
and demand to benignly / productively operate, as envisioned
by the neo-cons and "Washington Consensus" fanatics, but
which operationally results in a Kamikaze race to the
bottom. FWIW -- this also applies for the higher paying
jobs such as programmers and engineers, e.g. H1b.

On 2013-12-03, F George McDuffee wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:22:47 -0800, mike
wrote:

snip
Wages are determined by supply and demand.
Businesses raise wages until they get all the jobs filled.
As long as immigrants, legal or illegal, feel that they're
better off at McDonalds than their previous job, the wages
wont' rise.
snip

Thanks for the explication/demonstration of how
unrestricted/illegal immigration "short-circuits" the tacit
assumptions required for the "free market" and law of supply
and demand to benignly / productively operate, as envisioned
by the neo-cons and "Washington Consensus" fanatics, but
which operationally results in a Kamikaze race to the
bottom. FWIW -- this also applies for the higher paying
jobs such as programmers and engineers, e.g. H1b.



I do not think that a McDonalds franchisee can hire an illegal
immigrant.

Additionally, illegal immigrants are people too and they need to eat.

i

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 17:14:14 -0600, Ignoramus19407
wrote:

On 2013-12-03, F George McDuffee wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:22:47 -0800, mike
wrote:

snip
Wages are determined by supply and demand.
Businesses raise wages until they get all the jobs filled.
As long as immigrants, legal or illegal, feel that they're
better off at McDonalds than their previous job, the wages
wont' rise.
snip

Thanks for the explication/demonstration of how
unrestricted/illegal immigration "short-circuits" the tacit
assumptions required for the "free market" and law of supply
and demand to benignly / productively operate, as envisioned
by the neo-cons and "Washington Consensus" fanatics, but
which operationally results in a Kamikaze race to the
bottom. FWIW -- this also applies for the higher paying
jobs such as programmers and engineers, e.g. H1b.



I do not think that a McDonalds franchisee can hire an illegal
immigrant.

Really? Then you havent been in So Cal.

Additionally, illegal immigrants are people too and they need to eat.

i
So let them eat back in their home countries.


--
"Owning a sailboat is like marrying a nymphomaniac. You don’t want to do that
but it is great if your best friend does. That way you get all the benefits without any of the upkeep"

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This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 17:14:14 -0600, Ignoramus19407
wrote:

On 2013-12-03, F George McDuffee wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:22:47 -0800, mike
wrote:

snip
Wages are determined by supply and demand.
Businesses raise wages until they get all the jobs filled.
As long as immigrants, legal or illegal, feel that they're
better off at McDonalds than their previous job, the wages
wont' rise.
snip

Thanks for the explication/demonstration of how
unrestricted/illegal immigration "short-circuits" the tacit
assumptions required for the "free market" and law of supply
and demand to benignly / productively operate, as envisioned
by the neo-cons and "Washington Consensus" fanatics, but
which operationally results in a Kamikaze race to the
bottom. FWIW -- this also applies for the higher paying
jobs such as programmers and engineers, e.g. H1b.



I do not think that a McDonalds franchisee can hire an illegal
immigrant.

Some franchises probably would if they could get away with it.


Additionally, illegal immigrants are people too and they need to eat.

Not HERE they don't, damnit! They can get legal or get lost. mumble,
mumble LEGAL immigrants can eat here all they please.

--
Just as a picture is drawn by an artist, surroundings
are created by the activities of the mind.

On 2013-12-04, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 17:14:14 -0600, Ignoramus19407
wrote:

On 2013-12-03, F George McDuffee wrote:
On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:22:47 -0800, mike
wrote:

snip
Wages are determined by supply and demand.
Businesses raise wages until they get all the jobs filled.
As long as immigrants, legal or illegal, feel that they're
better off at McDonalds than their previous job, the wages
wont' rise.
snip

Thanks for the explication/demonstration of how
unrestricted/illegal immigration "short-circuits" the tacit
assumptions required for the "free market" and law of supply
and demand to benignly / productively operate, as envisioned
by the neo-cons and "Washington Consensus" fanatics, but
which operationally results in a Kamikaze race to the
bottom. FWIW -- this also applies for the higher paying
jobs such as programmers and engineers, e.g. H1b.



I do not think that a McDonalds franchisee can hire an illegal
immigrant.

Some franchises probably would if they could get away with it.

A lot of people could, and do, hire illegal aliens. But a McDonalds
franchisee cannot, they are overseen very heavily.


Additionally, illegal immigrants are people too and they need to eat.

Not HERE they don't, damnit! They can get legal or get lost. mumble,
mumble LEGAL immigrants can eat here all they please.

But they are people too.

i

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 15:30:57 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:22:47 -0800, mike
wrote:

snip
Wages are determined by supply and demand.
Businesses raise wages until they get all the jobs filled.
As long as immigrants, legal or illegal, feel that they're
better off at McDonalds than their previous job, the wages
wont' rise.
snip

Thanks for the explication/demonstration of how
unrestricted/illegal immigration "short-circuits" the tacit
assumptions required for the "free market" and law of supply
and demand to benignly / productively operate, as envisioned
by the neo-cons and "Washington Consensus" fanatics, but
which operationally results in a Kamikaze race to the
bottom. FWIW -- this also applies for the higher paying
jobs such as programmers and engineers, e.g. H1b.


But one of the major reasons for the U.S. encouraging immigration was
to have a source of low paid labor. Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire,
for example killed 146 people, mainly immigrants, the canals and
railroads were built with, largely, Irish immigrant workers.

In addition, mandating wages based on local conditions effects
international trade to the extent that I can think of no product
actually manufactured in the U.S. that is sold here in Thailand.
--
Cheers,

John B.

For me, getting a descent wage wasn't so easy. I bagged groceries for
$3.35/hr for a short period of time, did other low wage part time jobs when
people gave me a chance. Being a quite person doesn't help, employers buy
who sells themselves the best, not the person with the most potential. On
my part time minimum wage I put enough money aside to purchase a Taig Micro
Lathe, my dad bought me a General 1" micrometer. I made all kinds of
things, including a model steam engine, no plans, just memory from seeing
one in an encyclopedia in high school a few years before.

So as I was finishing up courses required for my Associated degree in
Electronics Technology, I got a job at a machine shop for $3.35/hr, same
wage as burger flippers make. I figured I was getting not only a paycheck,
but education and experience as well. After almost 2 years at the machine
shop I was up to $4 per hour but was interested in something in electronics
like I went to school for. Then I got a job in office machine repair,
started at $4/hr. I was sent to Chicago for training and it involved
electronics. I never could get the better paying industrial electrician
jobs or anything. On the side for hobby, I taught myself "C" programming,
Basic, Assembly Language, designed and build a stepper motor 3 axis circuit
board drill, ran from a Commodore 64, interfaced an IBM PC to a school
scoreboard and wrote the program to control it. The tough stuff was hobby,
the day job was not much better than minimum wage.

After over 10 years of office machine repair, I got a job at a cookie
factory as an industrial maintenance technician, $7.25/hr. production
workers at other plants in the area made more than that. I always
considered it valuable to take a low wage to gain experience, I felt there
was nothing wrong with working my way up. The cookie factory liked me, I
could make their machines run when no one else could, I was given raises
twice as fast as they told me I would when I got the job. So at the cookie
factory I went from $7.25/hr to over $9/hr in about 9 months. Other
industrial maintenance jobs wanted people with PLC experience. The cookie
factory didn't have PLC's. Most HR didn't realize that if I could teach
myself "C" and Assembly language, Ladder logic wouldn't be that tough for me
to learn.

I interviewed for a job, didn't get, I didn't know ladder logic, couldn't
just look it up on the internet then. So I bought a book to learn PLC's,
bought a broken Allen Bradley SLC100 with hand held programmer and self
teach guide, and started learning relay ladder logic programming. Then I
got an interview with an engineering company, the owner was the HR guy, he
recognized that what I had taught myself was related to the industrial
automation tasks he wanted someone to be able to do. So I started out at
$400/wk salary exempt, through many projects and challenges, I was over
double the salary within 2-1/2 to 3 years.

I currently have 7 years in engineering experience plus over 11 years as an
industrial electrical technician. I've had a lathe and drill press since my
teens and have owned mills too for around 15 years now.

I wasn't given an opportunity to develop most of my skills, I bought
equipment to gain the skills that are in demand, I took low wage jobs to get
the experience employers wanted. I did and learned much for no wage as
hobby projects. Same for my CNC experience, bought or converted machines
and taught myself, I've even written HPGL to G code converter programs in
Basic.

Now burger flippers think fast food is a career opportunity, it's a job to
put gas in the car while you gain some skills or get an education. Working
in fast food is barely better than a paper route for most. I know there are
managers and such that it is a career for, they should maker a livable wage,
but for school kids that get an entry level job, it's just some money while
preparing for a career.

If a person is worth the money, they should be able to find someone to pay
it without being forced to by the government or a union. I paid my dues and
gained the skills by investing my own time and money to educate myself. But
as the ultimate hypocrisy, Mother Jones thinks minimum wage should be $15/hr
while paying interns an equivalent of $6/hr.

RogerN