On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 18:08:52 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Mar 20, 10:47*am, Ed Huntress wrote:

Wrong. *There is speculation, but no argument. *Saying how many people
want to do sometihing is not an argument.

Go for it, Dan. Whatever satisfies the definitions in your head is
fine with me.

--
Ed Huntress

Try thinking.

Pffhhht. Why don't you try it yourself? Before the election, editorial
pages were FULL of arguments about why one candidate or the other was
going to win. One of my faves was an argumentative article two or
three weeks before the election, by one of the righty publications,
listing 5 or 10 reasons (I forget the number) why Nate Silver was so
very, very wrong. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress


Dan

On Mar 20, 9:27*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:


Try thinking.

Pffhhht. Why don't you try it yourself? Before the election, editorial
pages were FULL of arguments about why one candidate or the other was
going to win. One of my faves was an argumentative article two or
three weeks before the election, by one of the righty publications,
listing 5 or 10 reasons (I forget the number) why Nate Silver was so
very, very wrong. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress



So you think that how many people favor something is an argument?

Try reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Dan

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 18:38:12 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Mar 20, 9:27*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:


Try thinking.

Pffhhht. Why don't you try it yourself? Before the election, editorial
pages were FULL of arguments about why one candidate or the other was
going to win. One of my faves was an argumentative article two or
three weeks before the election, by one of the righty publications,
listing 5 or 10 reasons (I forget the number) why Nate Silver was so
very, very wrong. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress



So you think that how many people favor something is an argument?

Try reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument

No thanks, Dan. I don't need Wikipedia to know what an argument is,
but thank you anyway.

--
Ed Huntress


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Dan

"Gunner" wrote in message
...

On Sat, 16 Mar 2013 23:13:02 -0500, "RogerN"
wrote:

snipTo me, it seems that jailing someone for having some machine gun
part, that
work fine in an AR-15's, is kind of like throwing a man in jail for rape
because he has a penis. Or giving everyone a speeding ticket because
their
car is capable of speeding. Crazy!

RogerN


Welcome to the world of Leftwing Firearms Assault.

Gunner

In looking a little more at some of the machine gun parts kits, it looks
like people buy them to build legal semi-auto rifles out of. So you can
purchase a "machine gun parts kit" because you want to build a semi-auto and
possibly be accused of intending to build a machine gun. Also I have read
that they can consider a machine gun part as a machine gun. So on an AR,
the lower receiver is considered the gun but on a machine gun, they can
consider a part as a machine gun. If you legally own a machine gun, you can
take a part off and they can claim you have 2 machine guns.

The stupidity of such is amazing, it would be like getting caught changing
your tire and the officer ticketing you for not having a license and
registration for the tire you just removed as if it was a second vehicle.

RogerN

On Mar 20, 9:50*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:


Try reading *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument

No thanks, Dan. I don't need Wikipedia to know what an argument is,
but thank you anyway.

--
Ed Huntress



Apparently you do.

Dan

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 06:50:59 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Mar 20, 9:50*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:


Try reading *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument

No thanks, Dan. I don't need Wikipedia to know what an argument is,
but thank you anyway.

--
Ed Huntress



Apparently you do.

You wanna' argue about it? d8-)

Apparently you do...

--
Ed Huntress


Dan

On Mar 21, 9:53*am, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 06:50:59 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
On Mar 20, 9:50*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:

Try reading *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument

No thanks, Dan. I don't need Wikipedia to know what an argument is,
but thank you anyway.

--
Ed Huntress

Apparently you do.

You wanna' argue about it? d8-)

Apparently you do...

--
Ed Huntress



* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Dan

Not an argument.

Just an assertion.

Dan

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 09:07:02 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Mar 21, 9:53*am, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 06:50:59 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
On Mar 20, 9:50*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:

Try reading *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument

No thanks, Dan. I don't need Wikipedia to know what an argument is,
but thank you anyway.

--
Ed Huntress

Apparently you do.

You wanna' argue about it? d8-)

Apparently you do...

--
Ed Huntress



* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Dan

Not an argument.

Just an assertion.

Dan

'Really short of things to do today, eh, Dan? I wish you were here.
You could do something useful and help me fix my dishwasher. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On 3/21/2013 11:07 AM, wrote:

You wanna' argue about it? d8-)

Apparently you do...

--
Ed Huntress



Dan

Not an argument.

Just an assertion.

Dan

I've found that in discussions with Ed, he stops responding when backed
into a corner. That's easier than admitting he might be wrong.

David

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 16:20:16 -0500, "David R. Birch"
wrote:

On 3/21/2013 11:07 AM, wrote:

You wanna' argue about it? d8-)

Apparently you do...

--
Ed Huntress



Dan

Not an argument.

Just an assertion.

Dan

I've found that in discussions with Ed, he stops responding when backed
into a corner. That's easier than admitting he might be wrong.


David

Mostly I stop when the argument is too ridiculous to respond to.
Here's Dan arguing over whether we're having an argument. I'm speaking
English, so I say yes we are. Dan is speaking Latin and talking
philosophy, and he says no we're not.

I'll stick with English and the English-language dictionaries, and
leave Dan to contemplate his declensions -- or his navel. It's not
worth an argument. It's not even worth an assertion. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On Mar 21, 12:16*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:


'Really short of things to do today, eh, Dan? I wish you were here.
You could do something useful and help me fix my dishwasher. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

Not really. I just moved my lathe to the basement from the garage. I
took it apart to lighten it, but the bed and headstock still weighed
about twice as much as I can lift. i am going to make a compression
spring for a fellow. So I take a break every now and then and look to
see if anyone is doing any metalwork.


Dan

On Mar 21, 5:20*pm, "David R. Birch" wrote:


I've found that in discussions with Ed, he stops responding when backed
into a corner. That's easier than admitting he might be wrong.

David

I find he wants the last word.

Dan

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 14:44:27 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Mar 21, 12:16*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:


'Really short of things to do today, eh, Dan? I wish you were here.
You could do something useful and help me fix my dishwasher. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

Not really. I just moved my lathe to the basement from the garage. I
took it apart to lighten it, but the bed and headstock still weighed
about twice as much as I can lift. i am going to make a compression
spring for a fellow. So I take a break every now and then and look to
see if anyone is doing any metalwork.

g It sounds like my day, only I've been working on a frigging
dishwasher that suddenly started plastering lime deposits over
everything.

'All fixed now -- I think. Meanwhile, I did have to grind a special
tool to get the upper spray head off. Why they don't use standard
tools for that kind of thing, I'll never understand. You'd think they
were fastening hinges on a bank safe and wanted to make them
untouchable.

--
Ed Huntress



Dan

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 14:46:04 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Mar 21, 5:20*pm, "David R. Birch" wrote:


I've found that in discussions with Ed, he stops responding when backed
into a corner. That's easier than admitting he might be wrong.

David

I find he wants the last word.

You only think that because *you* want it so badly.

Now, go ahead and have the last word. I'll leave it to you, promise...

--
Ed Huntress


Dan

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 16:20:16 -0500, "David R. Birch"
wrote:

On 3/21/2013 11:07 AM, wrote:

You wanna' argue about it? d8-)

Apparently you do...

--
Ed Huntress



Dan

Not an argument.

Just an assertion.

Dan

I've found that in discussions with Ed, he stops responding when backed
into a corner. That's easier than admitting he might be wrong.

David


Ed normally goes into Insult mode until pressed really hard, then
interjects something weak or utterly unconnected..then when his bolt
is shot..he goes back to insults. Either he is utterly lazy, or
doesnt have a leg to stand on..or his senile dementia is progressing
rapidly.

Thats why I put him back in the bozo bin. Ive got better things to to
than **** around with the demented and lazy.

Gunner

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 16:03:09 -0700, GunnerAsch
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 16:20:16 -0500, "David R. Birch"
wrote:

On 3/21/2013 11:07 AM, wrote:

You wanna' argue about it? d8-)

Apparently you do...

--
Ed Huntress



Dan

Not an argument.

Just an assertion.

Dan

I've found that in discussions with Ed, he stops responding when backed
into a corner. That's easier than admitting he might be wrong.

David


Ed normally goes into Insult mode until pressed really hard, then
interjects something weak or utterly unconnected..then when his bolt
is shot..he goes back to insults. Either he is utterly lazy, or
doesnt have a leg to stand on..or his senile dementia is progressing
rapidly.

Thats why I put him back in the bozo bin. Ive got better things to to
than **** around with the demented and lazy.

In other words, you've gotten your bull**** called on you too many
times, and you can't take it anymore.

We know your style, Gunner. I've been expecting you to revert to type
any day now. I figured that the CDC issue, and the crap you spewed on
it, would be the last straw.

It was.

--
Ed Huntress

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 16:03:09 -0700, GunnerAsch
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 16:20:16 -0500, "David R. Birch"
wrote:

On 3/21/2013 11:07 AM, wrote:

You wanna' argue about it? d8-)

Apparently you do...

--
Ed Huntress



Dan

Not an argument.

Just an assertion.

Dan

I've found that in discussions with Ed, he stops responding when backed
into a corner. That's easier than admitting he might be wrong.

David


Ed normally goes into Insult mode until pressed really hard, then
interjects something weak or utterly unconnected..then when his bolt
is shot..he goes back to insults. Either he is utterly lazy, or
doesnt have a leg to stand on..or his senile dementia is progressing
rapidly.

Thats why I put him back in the bozo bin. Ive got better things to to
than **** around with the demented and lazy.

Whoyakidding? The only "better" thing you have to do is lie like a rug
day in and day out. That's because all the genuine better things that
you should be doing require you to get off your lazy ass. It's ****ing
fascinating to watch you sink deeper into your **** life at the same
time your imaginary escapades soar increasingly higher above reality.

On 3/21/2013 6:03 PM, GunnerAsch wrote:
On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 16:20:16 -0500, "David R. Birch"
wrote:

On 3/21/2013 11:07 AM, wrote:

You wanna' argue about it? d8-)

Apparently you do...

--
Ed Huntress



Dan

Not an argument.

Just an assertion.

Dan

I've found that in discussions with Ed, he stops responding when backed
into a corner. That's easier than admitting he might be wrong.

David


Ed normally goes into Insult mode until pressed really hard, then
interjects something weak or utterly unconnected..then when his bolt
is shot..he goes back to insults. Either he is utterly lazy, or
doesnt have a leg to stand on..or his senile dementia is progressing
rapidly.

Thats why I put him back in the bozo bin. Ive got better things to to
than **** around with the demented and lazy.

Gunner



I find that Ed normally replies in kind.
For the most part.

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 19:33:54 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 3/21/2013 6:03 PM, GunnerAsch wrote:
On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 16:20:16 -0500, "David R. Birch"
wrote:

On 3/21/2013 11:07 AM, wrote:

You wanna' argue about it? d8-)

Apparently you do...

--
Ed Huntress



Dan

Not an argument.

Just an assertion.

Dan

I've found that in discussions with Ed, he stops responding when backed
into a corner. That's easier than admitting he might be wrong.

David


Ed normally goes into Insult mode until pressed really hard, then
interjects something weak or utterly unconnected..then when his bolt
is shot..he goes back to insults. Either he is utterly lazy, or
doesnt have a leg to stand on..or his senile dementia is progressing
rapidly.

Thats why I put him back in the bozo bin. Ive got better things to to
than **** around with the demented and lazy.

Gunner



I find that Ed normally replies in kind.
For the most part.

Thank you, Richard. I try. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 19:33:54 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 3/21/2013 6:03 PM, GunnerAsch wrote:
On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 16:20:16 -0500, "David R. Birch"
wrote:

On 3/21/2013 11:07 AM, wrote:

You wanna' argue about it? d8-)

Apparently you do...

--
Ed Huntress



Dan

Not an argument.

Just an assertion.

Dan

I've found that in discussions with Ed, he stops responding when backed
into a corner. That's easier than admitting he might be wrong.

David


Ed normally goes into Insult mode until pressed really hard, then
interjects something weak or utterly unconnected..then when his bolt
is shot..he goes back to insults. Either he is utterly lazy, or
doesnt have a leg to stand on..or his senile dementia is progressing
rapidly.

Thats why I put him back in the bozo bin. Ive got better things to to
than **** around with the demented and lazy.

Gunner



I find that Ed normally replies in kind.
For the most part.

Laugh!

Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and they all stink.

On Mar 21, 6:00*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:


I find he wants the last word.

You only think that because *you* want it so badly.

Now, go ahead and have the last word. I'll leave it to you, promise...

--
Ed Huntress



* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Dan

Are you going to concede that stating the number of people that
believe something is not an argument?


Dan

On 3/21/2013 4:46 PM, wrote:
On Mar 21, 5:20 pm, "David R. Birch" wrote:


I've found that in discussions with Ed, he stops responding when backed
into a corner. That's easier than admitting he might be wrong.

David

I find he wants the last word.

Dan

Unless his only honest option for last words is "I'm wrong."

David

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 16:03:09 -0700, GunnerAsch
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 16:20:16 -0500, "David R. Birch"
wrote:

On 3/21/2013 11:07 AM, wrote:

You wanna' argue about it? d8-)

Apparently you do...

--
Ed Huntress



Dan

Not an argument.

Just an assertion.

Dan

I've found that in discussions with Ed, he stops responding when backed
into a corner. That's easier than admitting he might be wrong.

David


Ed normally goes into Insult mode until pressed really hard, then
interjects something weak or utterly unconnected..then when his bolt
is shot..he goes back to insults. Either he is utterly lazy, or
doesnt have a leg to stand on..or his senile dementia is progressing
rapidly.

Thats why I put him back in the bozo bin. Ive got better things to to
than **** around with the demented and lazy.

He should buy my knife. (have fun reading this!)
http://medford.craigslist.org/for/3696439469.html
I'll ship it to him for only $35.

--
In order to become the master, the politician poses as the servant.
--Charles de Gaulle

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:06:44 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 16:03:09 -0700, GunnerAsch
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 16:20:16 -0500, "David R. Birch"
wrote:

On 3/21/2013 11:07 AM, wrote:

You wanna' argue about it? d8-)

Apparently you do...

--
Ed Huntress



Dan

Not an argument.

Just an assertion.

Dan

I've found that in discussions with Ed, he stops responding when backed
into a corner. That's easier than admitting he might be wrong.

David


Ed normally goes into Insult mode until pressed really hard, then
interjects something weak or utterly unconnected..then when his bolt
is shot..he goes back to insults. Either he is utterly lazy, or
doesnt have a leg to stand on..or his senile dementia is progressing
rapidly.

Thats why I put him back in the bozo bin. Ive got better things to to
than **** around with the demented and lazy.

He should buy my knife. (have fun reading this!)
http://medford.craigslist.org/for/3696439469.html
I'll ship it to him for only $35.

LOL! Well done. If you manage to sell it...I think Ive got a couple
of them in the bottom of my knife cabinet...and I think one is a 2
piecer...a blade and a grip. So its a compact! (and a shining example
of knife testing involving a vise and a strong push)

Perhaps you can sell them for me as well?

VBG

Gunner

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 14:44:27 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Mar 21, 12:16*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:


'Really short of things to do today, eh, Dan? I wish you were here.
You could do something useful and help me fix my dishwasher. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

Not really. I just moved my lathe to the basement from the garage. I
took it apart to lighten it, but the bed and headstock still weighed
about twice as much as I can lift. i am going to make a compression
spring for a fellow. So I take a break every now and then and look to
see if anyone is doing any metalwork.

g It sounds like my day, only I've been working on a frigging
dishwasher that suddenly started plastering lime deposits over
everything.

'All fixed now -- I think. Meanwhile, I did have to grind a special
tool to get the upper spray head off. Why they don't use standard
tools for that kind of thing, I'll never understand. You'd think they
were fastening hinges on a bank safe and wanted to make them
untouchable.

Lime deposits? Probably due to phosphate deprivation.

Joe Gwinn

On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 16:03:35 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 14:44:27 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Mar 21, 12:16*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:


'Really short of things to do today, eh, Dan? I wish you were here.
You could do something useful and help me fix my dishwasher. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

Not really. I just moved my lathe to the basement from the garage. I
took it apart to lighten it, but the bed and headstock still weighed
about twice as much as I can lift. i am going to make a compression
spring for a fellow. So I take a break every now and then and look to
see if anyone is doing any metalwork.

g It sounds like my day, only I've been working on a frigging
dishwasher that suddenly started plastering lime deposits over
everything.

'All fixed now -- I think. Meanwhile, I did have to grind a special
tool to get the upper spray head off. Why they don't use standard
tools for that kind of thing, I'll never understand. You'd think they
were fastening hinges on a bank safe and wanted to make them
untouchable.

Lime deposits? Probably due to phosphate deprivation.

Joe Gwinn

Does phosphate take care of lime? I had the whole washer apart and
soaking in vinegar. I heat that the pros use dilute muriatic, but open
the windows first.

--
Ed Huntress

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 16:03:35 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 14:44:27 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Mar 21, 12:16*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:


'Really short of things to do today, eh, Dan? I wish you were here.
You could do something useful and help me fix my dishwasher. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

Not really. I just moved my lathe to the basement from the garage. I
took it apart to lighten it, but the bed and headstock still weighed
about twice as much as I can lift. i am going to make a compression
spring for a fellow. So I take a break every now and then and look to
see if anyone is doing any metalwork.

g It sounds like my day, only I've been working on a frigging
dishwasher that suddenly started plastering lime deposits over
everything.

'All fixed now -- I think. Meanwhile, I did have to grind a special
tool to get the upper spray head off. Why they don't use standard
tools for that kind of thing, I'll never understand. You'd think they
were fastening hinges on a bank safe and wanted to make them
untouchable.

Lime deposits? Probably due to phosphate deprivation.

Joe Gwinn

Does phosphate take care of lime? I had the whole washer apart and
soaking in vinegar. I heat that the pros use dilute muriatic, but open
the windows first.

Phosphate prevents the accumulation of lime in the first place, and
will remove deposits slowly. Organic acids like vinegar or citric acid
will work faster.

One thing to be careful of is that there may be zinc aluminum diemetal
components that can be dissolved if one is too aggressive.

One thing to try is running the dishwasher empty using TSP (trisodium
phosphate) from the paint store. Us the same amount as if the TSP were
the old Cascade. Make sure you get real TSP, not something sold as
equivalent, like sodium silicate. Savogran is the right brand, but
gotta read the label.

If you have a lab supply company, another thing to try Alconix
"Alcojet" detergent. This is used in labs to clean scientific
glassware and equipment. Works really well on stainless steel.

http://www.alconox.com/

http://www.amazon.com/Alconox-Nonion...ed-Detergent/d
p/B003FZAQD8

Joe Gwinn

On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 20:07:32 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 16:03:35 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 14:44:27 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Mar 21, 12:16*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:


'Really short of things to do today, eh, Dan? I wish you were here.
You could do something useful and help me fix my dishwasher. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

Not really. I just moved my lathe to the basement from the garage. I
took it apart to lighten it, but the bed and headstock still weighed
about twice as much as I can lift. i am going to make a compression
spring for a fellow. So I take a break every now and then and look to
see if anyone is doing any metalwork.

g It sounds like my day, only I've been working on a frigging
dishwasher that suddenly started plastering lime deposits over
everything.

'All fixed now -- I think. Meanwhile, I did have to grind a special
tool to get the upper spray head off. Why they don't use standard
tools for that kind of thing, I'll never understand. You'd think they
were fastening hinges on a bank safe and wanted to make them
untouchable.

Lime deposits? Probably due to phosphate deprivation.

Joe Gwinn

Does phosphate take care of lime? I had the whole washer apart and
soaking in vinegar. I heat that the pros use dilute muriatic, but open
the windows first.

Phosphate prevents the accumulation of lime in the first place, and
will remove deposits slowly. Organic acids like vinegar or citric acid
will work faster.

One thing to be careful of is that there may be zinc aluminum diemetal
components that can be dissolved if one is too aggressive.

One thing to try is running the dishwasher empty using TSP (trisodium
phosphate) from the paint store. Us the same amount as if the TSP were
the old Cascade. Make sure you get real TSP, not something sold as
equivalent, like sodium silicate. Savogran is the right brand, but
gotta read the label.

If you have a lab supply company, another thing to try Alconix
"Alcojet" detergent. This is used in labs to clean scientific
glassware and equipment. Works really well on stainless steel.

http://www.alconox.com/

http://www.amazon.com/Alconox-Nonion...ed-Detergent/d
p/B003FZAQD8

Joe Gwinn

Thanks for the tips, Joe. Yes, I have real, 100% TSP. I'll try the
empty wash and use some with each load for a while.

I'm trying everything. Everything before the Alcojet first -- $35 for
four pounds?? That tilts my cheapskate meter, but if all else fails...

Yesterday, after washing a load but AFTER the vinegar treatment, I had
to rinse all of the stainless steel with vinegar and then wash by
hand. Enough of that!

And it happened all of a sudden, after years with no problems.

--
Ed Huntress

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 20:07:32 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 16:03:35 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 14:44:27 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Mar 21, 12:16*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:


'Really short of things to do today, eh, Dan? I wish you were here.
You could do something useful and help me fix my dishwasher. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

Not really. I just moved my lathe to the basement from the garage. I
took it apart to lighten it, but the bed and headstock still weighed
about twice as much as I can lift. i am going to make a compression
spring for a fellow. So I take a break every now and then and look to
see if anyone is doing any metalwork.

g It sounds like my day, only I've been working on a frigging
dishwasher that suddenly started plastering lime deposits over
everything.

'All fixed now -- I think. Meanwhile, I did have to grind a special
tool to get the upper spray head off. Why they don't use standard
tools for that kind of thing, I'll never understand. You'd think they
were fastening hinges on a bank safe and wanted to make them
untouchable.

Lime deposits? Probably due to phosphate deprivation.

Joe Gwinn

Does phosphate take care of lime? I had the whole washer apart and
soaking in vinegar. I heat that the pros use dilute muriatic, but open
the windows first.

Phosphate prevents the accumulation of lime in the first place, and
will remove deposits slowly. Organic acids like vinegar or citric acid
will work faster.

One thing to be careful of is that there may be zinc aluminum diemetal
components that can be dissolved if one is too aggressive.

One thing to try is running the dishwasher empty using TSP (trisodium
phosphate) from the paint store. Us the same amount as if the TSP were
the old Cascade. Make sure you get real TSP, not something sold as
equivalent, like sodium silicate. Savogran is the right brand, but
gotta read the label.

If you have a lab supply company [nearby], another thing to try Alconix
"Alcojet" detergent. This is used in labs to clean scientific
glassware and equipment. Works really well on stainless steel.

http://www.alconox.com/

http://www.amazon.com/Alconox-Nonion...ed-Detergent/d
p/B003FZAQD8

Joe Gwinn

Thanks for the tips, Joe. Yes, I have real, 100% TSP. I'll try the
empty wash and use some with each load for a while.

I've tried running TSP in addition to zero-phosphate Cascade, and it
does work, but isn't perfect.

There is a commercial product that does better, and I'll remember the
name eventually.


I'm trying everything. Everything before the Alcojet first -- $35 for
four pounds?? That tilts my cheapskate meter, but if all else fails...

I have a box or two. It stores well, and is very effective.

One of the things I noticed when the detergents changed in ~2010 was
that coffee and tea cups developed a tightly adhering brown film that
even hand scrubbing didn't touch.

Alconox, the original lab detergent (which I first heard of while in
college), is intended for hand washing of labware, and so I tried it,
and noticed that the brown film peeled right off after a little
soaking.

Coffee and tea stains are still the waterloo of non-phosphate
detergents.

Alconox is also very good in ultrasonic cleaners.



Yesterday, after washing a load but AFTER the vinegar treatment, I had
to rinse all of the stainless steel with vinegar and then wash by
hand. Enough of that!

This continual liming of washed items is a classic mark of a detergent
problem.


And it happened all of a sudden, after years with no problems.

Wonder if the formula for whatever detergent you were using changed.
Or if you have a water softener that needs a recharge - hard water is
another waterloo for no-phosphate detergents. Or your local water
source changed.

Here are some reports:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/19/science/earth/19clean.html

http://www.npr.org/2010/12/15/132072...t-your-dishes-
are-still-dirty

http://complaintwire.org/complaint/P...e-dishwasher-d
etergent-new-box

What make and model of dishwasher do you have? I think I remember it
was a Bosch.

Joe Gwinn

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 12:37:28 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 20:07:32 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 16:03:35 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 14:44:27 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Mar 21, 12:16*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:


'Really short of things to do today, eh, Dan? I wish you were here.
You could do something useful and help me fix my dishwasher. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

Not really. I just moved my lathe to the basement from the garage. I
took it apart to lighten it, but the bed and headstock still weighed
about twice as much as I can lift. i am going to make a compression
spring for a fellow. So I take a break every now and then and look to
see if anyone is doing any metalwork.

g It sounds like my day, only I've been working on a frigging
dishwasher that suddenly started plastering lime deposits over
everything.

'All fixed now -- I think. Meanwhile, I did have to grind a special
tool to get the upper spray head off. Why they don't use standard
tools for that kind of thing, I'll never understand. You'd think they
were fastening hinges on a bank safe and wanted to make them
untouchable.

Lime deposits? Probably due to phosphate deprivation.

Joe Gwinn

Does phosphate take care of lime? I had the whole washer apart and
soaking in vinegar. I heat that the pros use dilute muriatic, but open
the windows first.

Phosphate prevents the accumulation of lime in the first place, and
will remove deposits slowly. Organic acids like vinegar or citric acid
will work faster.

One thing to be careful of is that there may be zinc aluminum diemetal
components that can be dissolved if one is too aggressive.

One thing to try is running the dishwasher empty using TSP (trisodium
phosphate) from the paint store. Us the same amount as if the TSP were
the old Cascade. Make sure you get real TSP, not something sold as
equivalent, like sodium silicate. Savogran is the right brand, but
gotta read the label.

If you have a lab supply company [nearby], another thing to try Alconix
"Alcojet" detergent. This is used in labs to clean scientific
glassware and equipment. Works really well on stainless steel.

http://www.alconox.com/

http://www.amazon.com/Alconox-Nonion...ed-Detergent/d
p/B003FZAQD8

Joe Gwinn

Thanks for the tips, Joe. Yes, I have real, 100% TSP. I'll try the
empty wash and use some with each load for a while.

I've tried running TSP in addition to zero-phosphate Cascade, and it
does work, but isn't perfect.

There is a commercial product that does better, and I'll remember the
name eventually.


I'm trying everything. Everything before the Alcojet first -- $35 for
four pounds?? That tilts my cheapskate meter, but if all else fails...

I have a box or two. It stores well, and is very effective.

One of the things I noticed when the detergents changed in ~2010 was
that coffee and tea cups developed a tightly adhering brown film that
even hand scrubbing didn't touch.

Alconox, the original lab detergent (which I first heard of while in
college), is intended for hand washing of labware, and so I tried it,
and noticed that the brown film peeled right off after a little
soaking.

Coffee and tea stains are still the waterloo of non-phosphate
detergents.

Alconox is also very good in ultrasonic cleaners.



Yesterday, after washing a load but AFTER the vinegar treatment, I had
to rinse all of the stainless steel with vinegar and then wash by
hand. Enough of that!

This continual liming of washed items is a classic mark of a detergent
problem.


And it happened all of a sudden, after years with no problems.

Wonder if the formula for whatever detergent you were using changed.
Or if you have a water softener that needs a recharge - hard water is
another waterloo for no-phosphate detergents. Or your local water
source changed.

Here are some reports:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/19/science/earth/19clean.html

http://www.npr.org/2010/12/15/132072...t-your-dishes-
are-still-dirty

http://complaintwire.org/complaint/P...e-dishwasher-d
etergent-new-box

What make and model of dishwasher do you have? I think I remember it
was a Bosch.

Joe Gwinn

No, mine is a Maytag. I'm going back at it this afternoon. After that,
I quit. d8-)

I'll store your suggestions in case I get the initiative to go at it
again. Thanks again.

--
Ed Huntress

"Joe Gwinn" wrote in message
...

One of the things I noticed when the detergents changed in ~2010 was
that coffee and tea cups developed a tightly adhering brown film
that
even hand scrubbing didn't touch.

Alconox, the original lab detergent (which I first heard of while in
college), is intended for hand washing of labware, and so I tried
it,
and noticed that the brown film peeled right off after a little
soaking.

Coffee and tea stains are still the waterloo of non-phosphate
detergents.

Alconox is also very good in ultrasonic cleaners.

Joe Gwinn

When I studied chemistry in the 60's the profs said that Tide was the
best lab glassware cleaner. Much of the glassware had unbrushable
shapes and any residue, especially of metallic salts, could poison the
next experiment.

http://www.pg.com/productsafety/msds...ated_03-13.pdf
Notice that the dose of alcohol that kills half the rats that drink it
is only 0.7% of their weight.

If Tide failed we resorted to hot chromic acid, which could strip the
pavement off the street.

jsw

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 12:37:28 -0400, Joe Gwinn
and others wrote:

I'm trying everything. Everything before the Alcojet first -- $35 for
four pounds?? That tilts my cheapskate meter, but if all else fails...

I have a box or two. It stores well, and is very effective.

One of the things I noticed when the detergents changed in ~2010 was
that coffee and tea cups developed a tightly adhering brown film that
even hand scrubbing didn't touch.

Alconox, the original lab detergent (which I first heard of while in
college), is intended for hand washing of labware, and so I tried it,
and noticed that the brown film peeled right off after a little
soaking.

http://tinyurl.com/dxau9av They don't give it away, do they?
$8-10 a pound, delivered.


Coffee and tea stains are still the waterloo of non-phosphate
detergents.

Alconox is also very good in ultrasonic cleaners.

I picked up a little ultrasonic in CA when I was there last year.
Vinegar is likely going to work for me, until proven inadequate.


What make and model of dishwasher do you have? I think I remember it
was a Bosch.

A buddy of mine worked in the appliance repair biz for a decade and
has made an oath to never buy a Bosch appliance. He said they break
at the tip of a hat and are expensive as hell to repair, with delays
for parts, etc. He really hates them. It surprised me. I've only
seen one and it was on when I was looking at it. I couldn't hear it!


--
In order to become the master, the politician poses as the servant.
--Charles de Gaulle

In article , Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 12:37:28 -0400, Joe Gwinn
and others wrote:

I'm trying everything. Everything before the Alcojet first -- $35 for
four pounds?? That tilts my cheapskate meter, but if all else fails...

I have a box or two. It stores well, and is very effective.

One of the things I noticed when the detergents changed in ~2010 was
that coffee and tea cups developed a tightly adhering brown film that
even hand scrubbing didn't touch.

Alconox, the original lab detergent (which I first heard of while in
college), is intended for hand washing of labware, and so I tried it,
and noticed that the brown film peeled right off after a little
soaking.

http://tinyurl.com/dxau9av They don't give it away, do they?
$8-10 a pound, delivered.

Nope. But the stuff really works, and the lab community loves it, and
have for decades. I learned of it in the late 1960s, and it was the
standard then.


Coffee and tea stains are still the waterloo of non-phosphate
detergents.

Alconox is also very good in ultrasonic cleaners.

I picked up a little ultrasonic in CA when I was there last year.
Vinegar is likely going to work for me, until proven inadequate.

Actually, what really works is 10% isopropyl alcohol in water,
according to the books on the engineering of ultrasonic cleaning
systems I have read.


What make and model of dishwasher do you have? I think I remember it
was a Bosch.

A buddy of mine worked in the appliance repair biz for a decade and
has made an oath to never buy a Bosch appliance. He said they break
at the tip of a hat and are expensive as hell to repair, with delays
for parts, etc. He really hates them. It surprised me. I've only
seen one and it was on when I was looking at it. I couldn't hear it!

When was that? Consumer Reports gave Bosch good grades, and I've had
the current one for at least 12 years so far. The only repair needed
was to replace a hose. And it is quiet, a big reason I chose it.

And Maytag had a reputation for reliability, but now they are much
worse than average.


Joe Gwinn

In article , Jim Wilkins
wrote:

"Joe Gwinn" wrote in message
...

One of the things I noticed when the detergents changed in ~2010 was
that coffee and tea cups developed a tightly adhering brown film
that
even hand scrubbing didn't touch.

Alconox, the original lab detergent (which I first heard of while in
college), is intended for hand washing of labware, and so I tried
it,
and noticed that the brown film peeled right off after a little
soaking.

Coffee and tea stains are still the waterloo of non-phosphate
detergents.

Alconox is also very good in ultrasonic cleaners.

Joe Gwinn

When I studied chemistry in the 60's the profs said that Tide was the
best lab glassware cleaner. Much of the glassware had unbrushable
shapes and any residue, especially of metallic salts, could poison the
next experiment.

I do recall some Tide versus Alconox debates from the day, with echos
to this day. Both are used to this day. The cost of detergent is a
tiny fraction of the cost of running a lab, so I don't really
understand the point of the argument.


http://www.pg.com/productsafety/msds.../detergents/Li
q_2X_TIde_products_-_all_updated_03-13.pdf

Notice that the dose of alcohol that kills half the rats that drink it
is only 0.7% of their weight.

This is about twice the estimated LD50 dose for humans. We always knew
that rats were tough little critters, and this completes the proof -
pound for pound, they can drink us under the table.

However, this MSDS is for liquid Tide, which didn't exist in the 1960s.
I wonder what the formula was back then? It will have had something
like 10% phosphorus in it.


If Tide failed we resorted to hot chromic acid, which could strip the
pavement off the street.

And dissolve stainless steel? I do recall the use of hot chromic acid.


Joe Gwinn

"Joe Gwinn" wrote in message
...
In article , Jim Wilkins
wrote:


However, this MSDS is for liquid Tide, which didn't exist in the
1960s.
I wonder what the formula was back then? It will have had something
like 10% phosphorus in it.

Joe Gwinn

Since the 1940's the most effective ingredient has been the
alkylbenzenesulfonate surfactant.

How it works:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surfactant

jsw

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 12:37:28 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 20:07:32 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 16:03:35 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 14:44:27 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Mar 21, 12:16*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:


'Really short of things to do today, eh, Dan? I wish you were
here.
You could do something useful and help me fix my dishwasher. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

Not really. I just moved my lathe to the basement from the garage.
I
took it apart to lighten it, but the bed and headstock still weighed
about twice as much as I can lift. i am going to make a compression
spring for a fellow. So I take a break every now and then and look
to
see if anyone is doing any metalwork.

g It sounds like my day, only I've been working on a frigging
dishwasher that suddenly started plastering lime deposits over
everything.

'All fixed now -- I think. Meanwhile, I did have to grind a special
tool to get the upper spray head off. Why they don't use standard
tools for that kind of thing, I'll never understand. You'd think they
were fastening hinges on a bank safe and wanted to make them
untouchable.

Lime deposits? Probably due to phosphate deprivation.

Joe Gwinn

Does phosphate take care of lime? I had the whole washer apart and
soaking in vinegar. I heat that the pros use dilute muriatic, but open
the windows first.

Phosphate prevents the accumulation of lime in the first place, and
will remove deposits slowly. Organic acids like vinegar or citric acid
will work faster.

One thing to be careful of is that there may be zinc aluminum diemetal
components that can be dissolved if one is too aggressive.

One thing to try is running the dishwasher empty using TSP (trisodium
phosphate) from the paint store. Us the same amount as if the TSP were
the old Cascade. Make sure you get real TSP, not something sold as
equivalent, like sodium silicate. Savogran is the right brand, but
gotta read the label.

If you have a lab supply company [nearby], another thing to try Alconix
"Alcojet" detergent. This is used in labs to clean scientific
glassware and equipment. Works really well on stainless steel.

http://www.alconox.com/

http://www.amazon.com/Alconox-Nonion...ed-Detergent/d
p/B003FZAQD8

Joe Gwinn

Thanks for the tips, Joe. Yes, I have real, 100% TSP. I'll try the
empty wash and use some with each load for a while.

I've tried running TSP in addition to zero-phosphate Cascade, and it
does work, but isn't perfect.

There is a commercial product that does better, and I'll remember the
name eventually.


I'm trying everything. Everything before the Alcojet first -- $35 for
four pounds?? That tilts my cheapskate meter, but if all else fails...

I have a box or two. It stores well, and is very effective.

One of the things I noticed when the detergents changed in ~2010 was
that coffee and tea cups developed a tightly adhering brown film that
even hand scrubbing didn't touch.

Alconox, the original lab detergent (which I first heard of while in
college), is intended for hand washing of labware, and so I tried it,
and noticed that the brown film peeled right off after a little
soaking.

Coffee and tea stains are still the waterloo of non-phosphate
detergents.

Alconox is also very good in ultrasonic cleaners.



Yesterday, after washing a load but AFTER the vinegar treatment, I had
to rinse all of the stainless steel with vinegar and then wash by
hand. Enough of that!

This continual liming of washed items is a classic mark of a detergent
problem.


And it happened all of a sudden, after years with no problems.

Wonder if the formula for whatever detergent you were using changed.
Or if you have a water softener that needs a recharge - hard water is
another waterloo for no-phosphate detergents. Or your local water
source changed.

Here are some reports:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/19/science/earth/19clean.html

http://www.npr.org/2010/12/15/132072122/it-s-not-your-fault-your-dishes-are-still-dirty

http://complaintwire.org/complaint/PJ8BAAAAAAA/p-g-cascade-dishwasher-detergent-new-box

What make and model of dishwasher do you have? I think I remember it
was a Bosch.

No, mine is a Maytag. I'm going back at it this afternoon. After that,
I quit. d8-)

I'll store your suggestions in case I get the initiative to go at it
again. Thanks again.

Welcome. Good luck. Keep us posted.

Joe Gwinn

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 13:12:25 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 12:37:28 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 20:07:32 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 16:03:35 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 14:44:27 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Mar 21, 12:16*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:


'Really short of things to do today, eh, Dan? I wish you were here.
You could do something useful and help me fix my dishwasher. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

Not really. I just moved my lathe to the basement from the garage. I
took it apart to lighten it, but the bed and headstock still weighed
about twice as much as I can lift. i am going to make a compression
spring for a fellow. So I take a break every now and then and look to
see if anyone is doing any metalwork.

g It sounds like my day, only I've been working on a frigging
dishwasher that suddenly started plastering lime deposits over
everything.

'All fixed now -- I think. Meanwhile, I did have to grind a special
tool to get the upper spray head off. Why they don't use standard
tools for that kind of thing, I'll never understand. You'd think they
were fastening hinges on a bank safe and wanted to make them
untouchable.

Lime deposits? Probably due to phosphate deprivation.

Joe Gwinn

Does phosphate take care of lime? I had the whole washer apart and
soaking in vinegar. I heat that the pros use dilute muriatic, but open
the windows first.

Phosphate prevents the accumulation of lime in the first place, and
will remove deposits slowly. Organic acids like vinegar or citric acid
will work faster.

One thing to be careful of is that there may be zinc aluminum diemetal
components that can be dissolved if one is too aggressive.

One thing to try is running the dishwasher empty using TSP (trisodium
phosphate) from the paint store. Us the same amount as if the TSP were
the old Cascade. Make sure you get real TSP, not something sold as
equivalent, like sodium silicate. Savogran is the right brand, but
gotta read the label.

If you have a lab supply company [nearby], another thing to try Alconix
"Alcojet" detergent. This is used in labs to clean scientific
glassware and equipment. Works really well on stainless steel.

http://www.alconox.com/

http://www.amazon.com/Alconox-Nonion...ed-Detergent/d
p/B003FZAQD8

Joe Gwinn

Thanks for the tips, Joe. Yes, I have real, 100% TSP. I'll try the
empty wash and use some with each load for a while.

I've tried running TSP in addition to zero-phosphate Cascade, and it
does work, but isn't perfect.

There is a commercial product that does better, and I'll remember the
name eventually.


I'm trying everything. Everything before the Alcojet first -- $35 for
four pounds?? That tilts my cheapskate meter, but if all else fails...

I have a box or two. It stores well, and is very effective.

One of the things I noticed when the detergents changed in ~2010 was
that coffee and tea cups developed a tightly adhering brown film that
even hand scrubbing didn't touch.

Alconox, the original lab detergent (which I first heard of while in
college), is intended for hand washing of labware, and so I tried it,
and noticed that the brown film peeled right off after a little
soaking.

Coffee and tea stains are still the waterloo of non-phosphate
detergents.

Alconox is also very good in ultrasonic cleaners.



Yesterday, after washing a load but AFTER the vinegar treatment, I had
to rinse all of the stainless steel with vinegar and then wash by
hand. Enough of that!

This continual liming of washed items is a classic mark of a detergent
problem.


And it happened all of a sudden, after years with no problems.

Wonder if the formula for whatever detergent you were using changed.
Or if you have a water softener that needs a recharge - hard water is
another waterloo for no-phosphate detergents. Or your local water
source changed.

Here are some reports:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/19/science/earth/19clean.html

http://www.npr.org/2010/12/15/132072...t-your-dishes-
are-still-dirty

http://complaintwire.org/complaint/P...e-dishwasher-d
etergent-new-box

What make and model of dishwasher do you have? I think I remember it
was a Bosch.

Joe Gwinn

No, mine is a Maytag. I'm going back at it this afternoon. After that,
I quit. d8-)

I'll store your suggestions in case I get the initiative to go at it
again. Thanks again.
Finish Quantum along with their rins agent works quite well in my 2008
sears (Whirlpool) dishwasher.
---

Gerry :-)}
London,Canada

In article , Jim Wilkins
wrote:

"Joe Gwinn" wrote in message
...
In article , Jim Wilkins
wrote:


However, this MSDS is for liquid Tide, which didn't exist in the
1960s.
I wonder what the formula was back then? It will have had something
like 10% phosphorus in it.

Joe Gwinn

Since the 1940's the most effective ingredient has been the
alkylbenzenesulfonate surfactant.

How it works:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surfactant

Thanks; I'll look into this.

But for instance the user's manual for my circa 1999 dishwasher says if
the detergent is less than 8% phosphorus, they (Bosch) do not guarantee
dishwashing performance.

Joe Gwinn

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 18:08:07 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 12:37:28 -0400, Joe Gwinn
and others wrote:

I'm trying everything. Everything before the Alcojet first -- $35 for
four pounds?? That tilts my cheapskate meter, but if all else fails...

I have a box or two. It stores well, and is very effective.

One of the things I noticed when the detergents changed in ~2010 was
that coffee and tea cups developed a tightly adhering brown film that
even hand scrubbing didn't touch.

Alconox, the original lab detergent (which I first heard of while in
college), is intended for hand washing of labware, and so I tried it,
and noticed that the brown film peeled right off after a little
soaking.

http://tinyurl.com/dxau9av They don't give it away, do they?
$8-10 a pound, delivered.

Nope. But the stuff really works, and the lab community loves it, and
have for decades. I learned of it in the late 1960s, and it was the
standard then.

OK.


Coffee and tea stains are still the waterloo of non-phosphate
detergents.

Alconox is also very good in ultrasonic cleaners.

I picked up a little ultrasonic in CA when I was there last year.
Vinegar is likely going to work for me, until proven inadequate.

Actually, what really works is 10% isopropyl alcohol in water,
according to the books on the engineering of ultrasonic cleaning
systems I have read.

Thanks, Joe. I'll give it a try. I have some 70% and 90% I can
dilute. Would denatured work? I keep a gallon on hand.


What make and model of dishwasher do you have? I think I remember it
was a Bosch.

A buddy of mine worked in the appliance repair biz for a decade and
has made an oath to never buy a Bosch appliance. He said they break
at the tip of a hat and are expensive as hell to repair, with delays
for parts, etc. He really hates them. It surprised me. I've only
seen one and it was on when I was looking at it. I couldn't hear it!

When was that? Consumer Reports gave Bosch good grades, and I've had
the current one for at least 12 years so far. The only repair needed
was to replace a hose. And it is quiet, a big reason I chose it.

2007 is when I saw one. My buddy told me the war stories last year.


And Maytag had a reputation for reliability, but now they are much
worse than average.

I bought Magic Chef (made by Maytag, the only difference being that I
got a plastic tub instead of SS, the repairman said) washer and dryer
when I moved here in 2002. Later in 2002, I got a warranty motor put
in the washer and new rollers put in the dryer. The new rollers were
just as bad (thump, thump, thump upon startup, and the repairman told
me there would be no improvement) and there wasn't.

Gimme a 20 y/o Kenmore next time, eh?

--
In order to become the master, the politician poses as the servant.
--Charles de Gaulle

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...

Gimme a 20 y/o Kenmore next time, eh?

I'm still running the Maytag washing machine I bought second-hand in
1981. I drilled and tapped the transmission for an oil filler and pump
in 90W gear oil to replace the oil that leaks out the bottom about
yearly, or when it gets noisy.

Maytag replacement drive belts slip enough to let the motor come up to
speed quickly . A standard, higher friction belt can burn out the
start winding.
jsw