On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 00:27:01 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .

Gimme a 20 y/o Kenmore next time, eh?

I'm still running the Maytag washing machine I bought second-hand in
1981. I drilled and tapped the transmission for an oil filler and pump
in 90W gear oil to replace the oil that leaks out the bottom about
yearly, or when it gets noisy.

Yeah, ancient Kenmores and Maytags are the cat's meow.
Drilled and tapped for a filler tube, eh? Cool.


Maytag replacement drive belts slip enough to let the motor come up to
speed quickly . A standard, higher friction belt can burn out the
start winding.

That new motor of mine released its magic chef smoke...with their OEM
belt on it.

--
If we can ever make red tape nutritional, we can feed the world.
--Robert Schaeberle

In article , Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 18:08:07 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 12:37:28 -0400, Joe Gwinn
and others wrote:

I'm trying everything. Everything before the Alcojet first -- $35 for
four pounds?? That tilts my cheapskate meter, but if all else fails...

I have a box or two. It stores well, and is very effective.

One of the things I noticed when the detergents changed in ~2010 was
that coffee and tea cups developed a tightly adhering brown film that
even hand scrubbing didn't touch.

Alconox, the original lab detergent (which I first heard of while in
college), is intended for hand washing of labware, and so I tried it,
and noticed that the brown film peeled right off after a little
soaking.

http://tinyurl.com/dxau9av They don't give it away, do they?
$8-10 a pound, delivered.

Nope. But the stuff really works, and the lab community loves it, and
have for decades. I learned of it in the late 1960s, and it was the
standard then.

OK.


Coffee and tea stains are still the waterloo of non-phosphate
detergents.

Alconox is also very good in ultrasonic cleaners.

I picked up a little ultrasonic in CA when I was there last year.
Vinegar is likely going to work for me, until proven inadequate.

Actually, what really works is 10% isopropyl alcohol in water,
according to the books on the engineering of ultrasonic cleaning
systems I have read.

Thanks, Joe. I'll give it a try. I have some 70% and 90% I can
dilute. Would denatured work? I keep a gallon on hand.

I would guess that denatured would work just fine, and there is no harm
in trying it.


What make and model of dishwasher do you have? I think I remember it
was a Bosch.

A buddy of mine worked in the appliance repair biz for a decade and
has made an oath to never buy a Bosch appliance. He said they break
at the tip of a hat and are expensive as hell to repair, with delays
for parts, etc. He really hates them. It surprised me. I've only
seen one and it was on when I was looking at it. I couldn't hear it!

When was that? Consumer Reports gave Bosch good grades, and I've had
the current one for at least 12 years so far. The only repair needed
was to replace a hose. And it is quiet, a big reason I chose it.

2007 is when I saw one. My buddy told me the war stories last year.

I bought the Bosch in January 2000.


And Maytag had a reputation for reliability, but now they are much
worse than average.

I bought Magic Chef (made by Maytag, the only difference being that I
got a plastic tub instead of SS, the repairman said) washer and dryer
when I moved here in 2002. Later in 2002, I got a warranty motor put
in the washer and new rollers put in the dryer. The new rollers were
just as bad (thump, thump, thump upon startup, and the repairman told
me there would be no improvement) and there wasn't.

Gimme a 20 y/o Kenmore next time, eh?

Yeah.

What I replaced was a beat-up old Maytag that came with the house.

Joe Gwinn

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 00:27:01 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..

Gimme a 20 y/o Kenmore next time, eh?

I'm still running the Maytag washing machine I bought second-hand in
1981. I drilled and tapped the transmission for an oil filler and
pump
in 90W gear oil to replace the oil that leaks out the bottom about
yearly, or when it gets noisy.

Yeah, ancient Kenmores and Maytags are the cat's meow.
Drilled and tapped for a filler tube, eh? Cool.

The repair manual revealed an open area with nothing to damage inside.
I used a spiral flute tap that pulled the continuous chips back out.
The bottletop pump was meant to refill an outboard lower unit. It
works on my truck transmission and transfer case too.
jsw

"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in news:kin2rq$9b8$1
@dont-email.me:

I used a spiral flute tap that pulled the continuous chips back out.


didja use that tap to drill the hole, too?
G
Lloyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Jim Wilkins" fired this volley in
news:kin2rq$9b8$1
@dont-email.me:

I used a spiral flute tap that pulled the continuous chips back
out.


didja use that tap to drill the hole, too?
G
Lloyd

On my planet our drill bits also have spiral flutes.
jsw

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 19:38:08 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 12:37:28 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 20:07:32 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 16:03:35 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 14:44:27 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Mar 21, 12:16*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:


'Really short of things to do today, eh, Dan? I wish you were
here.
You could do something useful and help me fix my dishwasher. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

Not really. I just moved my lathe to the basement from the garage.
I
took it apart to lighten it, but the bed and headstock still weighed
about twice as much as I can lift. i am going to make a compression
spring for a fellow. So I take a break every now and then and look
to
see if anyone is doing any metalwork.

g It sounds like my day, only I've been working on a frigging
dishwasher that suddenly started plastering lime deposits over
everything.

'All fixed now -- I think. Meanwhile, I did have to grind a special
tool to get the upper spray head off. Why they don't use standard
tools for that kind of thing, I'll never understand. You'd think they
were fastening hinges on a bank safe and wanted to make them
untouchable.

Lime deposits? Probably due to phosphate deprivation.

Joe Gwinn

Does phosphate take care of lime? I had the whole washer apart and
soaking in vinegar. I heat that the pros use dilute muriatic, but open
the windows first.

Phosphate prevents the accumulation of lime in the first place, and
will remove deposits slowly. Organic acids like vinegar or citric acid
will work faster.

One thing to be careful of is that there may be zinc aluminum diemetal
components that can be dissolved if one is too aggressive.

One thing to try is running the dishwasher empty using TSP (trisodium
phosphate) from the paint store. Us the same amount as if the TSP were
the old Cascade. Make sure you get real TSP, not something sold as
equivalent, like sodium silicate. Savogran is the right brand, but
gotta read the label.

If you have a lab supply company [nearby], another thing to try Alconix
"Alcojet" detergent. This is used in labs to clean scientific
glassware and equipment. Works really well on stainless steel.

http://www.alconox.com/

http://www.amazon.com/Alconox-Nonion...ed-Detergent/d
p/B003FZAQD8

Joe Gwinn

Thanks for the tips, Joe. Yes, I have real, 100% TSP. I'll try the
empty wash and use some with each load for a while.

I've tried running TSP in addition to zero-phosphate Cascade, and it
does work, but isn't perfect.

There is a commercial product that does better, and I'll remember the
name eventually.


I'm trying everything. Everything before the Alcojet first -- $35 for
four pounds?? That tilts my cheapskate meter, but if all else fails...

I have a box or two. It stores well, and is very effective.

One of the things I noticed when the detergents changed in ~2010 was
that coffee and tea cups developed a tightly adhering brown film that
even hand scrubbing didn't touch.

Alconox, the original lab detergent (which I first heard of while in
college), is intended for hand washing of labware, and so I tried it,
and noticed that the brown film peeled right off after a little
soaking.

Coffee and tea stains are still the waterloo of non-phosphate
detergents.

Alconox is also very good in ultrasonic cleaners.



Yesterday, after washing a load but AFTER the vinegar treatment, I had
to rinse all of the stainless steel with vinegar and then wash by
hand. Enough of that!

This continual liming of washed items is a classic mark of a detergent
problem.


And it happened all of a sudden, after years with no problems.

Wonder if the formula for whatever detergent you were using changed.
Or if you have a water softener that needs a recharge - hard water is
another waterloo for no-phosphate detergents. Or your local water
source changed.

Here are some reports:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/19/science/earth/19clean.html

http://www.npr.org/2010/12/15/132072122/it-s-not-your-fault-your-dishes-are-still-dirty

http://complaintwire.org/complaint/PJ8BAAAAAAA/p-g-cascade-dishwasher-detergent-new-box

What make and model of dishwasher do you have? I think I remember it
was a Bosch.

No, mine is a Maytag. I'm going back at it this afternoon. After that,
I quit. d8-)

I'll store your suggestions in case I get the initiative to go at it
again. Thanks again.

Welcome. Good luck. Keep us posted.

Joe Gwinn

Joe, problem solved. Thanks for your help.

It was the result of a change in detergents. About five months ago my
local supermarket stopped carrying Finish powder, so I switched to
Cascade. I didn't think that could be it, since the Cascade seemed to
work fine for all those months.

But I talked to another friend who used to be a repairman for Sears.
He said it was almost certainly the detergent. So I bought some of
those fancy Finish capsules. I've run the dishwasher twice since then
and everything is sparkling clean. It even seems to eat off the lime
from stainless pots that already had a coating. I saved a couple
without giving them the vinegar treatment, just to see what would
happen.

So that appears to have been it. Now I can relax and fix the tub drain
in my bathroom. d8-)

Thanks again.

--
Ed Huntress

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 19:38:08 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 12:37:28 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 20:07:32 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 16:03:35 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 14:44:27 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Mar 21, 12:16*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:


'Really short of things to do today, eh, Dan? I wish you were
here.
You could do something useful and help me fix my dishwasher.
d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

Not really. I just moved my lathe to the basement from the
garage.
I
took it apart to lighten it, but the bed and headstock still
weighed
about twice as much as I can lift. i am going to make a
compression
spring for a fellow. So I take a break every now and then and
look
to
see if anyone is doing any metalwork.

g It sounds like my day, only I've been working on a frigging
dishwasher that suddenly started plastering lime deposits over
everything.

'All fixed now -- I think. Meanwhile, I did have to grind a
special
tool to get the upper spray head off. Why they don't use standard
tools for that kind of thing, I'll never understand. You'd think
they
were fastening hinges on a bank safe and wanted to make them
untouchable.

Lime deposits? Probably due to phosphate deprivation.

Joe Gwinn

Does phosphate take care of lime? I had the whole washer apart and
soaking in vinegar. I heat that the pros use dilute muriatic, but
open
the windows first.

Phosphate prevents the accumulation of lime in the first place, and
will remove deposits slowly. Organic acids like vinegar or citric acid
will work faster.

One thing to be careful of is that there may be zinc aluminum diemetal
components that can be dissolved if one is too aggressive.

One thing to try is running the dishwasher empty using TSP (trisodium
phosphate) from the paint store. Us the same amount as if the TSP were
the old Cascade. Make sure you get real TSP, not something sold as
equivalent, like sodium silicate. Savogran is the right brand, but
gotta read the label.

If you have a lab supply company [nearby], another thing to try Alconix
"Alcojet" detergent. This is used in labs to clean scientific
glassware and equipment. Works really well on stainless steel.

http://www.alconox.com/


http://www.amazon.com/Alconox-Nonion...ered-Detergent
/d
p/B003FZAQD8

Joe Gwinn

Thanks for the tips, Joe. Yes, I have real, 100% TSP. I'll try the
empty wash and use some with each load for a while.

I've tried running TSP in addition to zero-phosphate Cascade, and it
does work, but isn't perfect.

There is a commercial product that does better, and I'll remember the
name eventually. [It was Finish Glass Magic.]


I'm trying everything. Everything before the Alcojet first -- $35 for
four pounds?? That tilts my cheapskate meter, but if all else fails...

I have a box or two. It stores well, and is very effective.

One of the things I noticed when the detergents changed in ~2010 was
that coffee and tea cups developed a tightly adhering brown film that
even hand scrubbing didn't touch.

Alconox, the original lab detergent (which I first heard of while in
college), is intended for hand washing of labware, and so I tried it,
and noticed that the brown film peeled right off after a little
soaking.

Coffee and tea stains are still the waterloo of non-phosphate
detergents.

Alconox is also very good in ultrasonic cleaners.



Yesterday, after washing a load but AFTER the vinegar treatment, I had
to rinse all of the stainless steel with vinegar and then wash by
hand. Enough of that!

This continual liming of washed items is a classic mark of a detergent
problem.


And it happened all of a sudden, after years with no problems.

Wonder if the formula for whatever detergent you were using changed.
Or if you have a water softener that needs a recharge - hard water is
another waterloo for no-phosphate detergents. Or your local water
source changed.

Here are some reports:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/19/science/earth/19clean.html


http://www.npr.org/2010/12/15/132072...t-your-dishes-
are-still-dirty


http://complaintwire.org/complaint/P...-dishwasher-de
tergent-new-box

What make and model of dishwasher do you have? I think I remember it
was a Bosch.

No, mine is a Maytag. I'm going back at it this afternoon. After that,
I quit. d8-)

I'll store your suggestions in case I get the initiative to go at it
again. Thanks again.

Welcome. Good luck. Keep us posted.

Joe Gwinn

Joe, problem solved. Thanks for your help.

It was the result of a change in detergents. About five months ago my
local supermarket stopped carrying Finish powder, so I switched to
Cascade. I didn't think that could be it, since the Cascade seemed to
work fine for all those months.

But I talked to another friend who used to be a repairman for Sears.
He said it was almost certainly the detergent. So I bought some of
those fancy Finish capsules. I've run the dishwasher twice since then
and everything is sparkling clean. It even seems to eat off the lime
from stainless pots that already had a coating. I saved a couple
without giving them the vinegar treatment, just to see what would
happen.

Finish? That was the stuff I was trying to remember, specifically
Finish Glass Magic. Finish Quantum PowerBall too. The magic
ingredient is phosphate.


So that appears to have been it. Now I can relax and fix the tub drain
in my bathroom. d8-)

Boiling lye, to dissolve the hairballs?

Actually, what I do is to put a pile of straight lye in the drain and
pour in about a cup of water, and let it work for awhile. Don't forget
to rinse it all away later.

Joe Gwinn

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 14:47:18 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 19:38:08 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 12:37:28 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 20:07:32 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Mar 2013 16:03:35 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 14:44:27 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Mar 21, 12:16*pm, Ed Huntress wrote:


'Really short of things to do today, eh, Dan? I wish you were
here.
You could do something useful and help me fix my dishwasher.
d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

Not really. I just moved my lathe to the basement from the
garage.
I
took it apart to lighten it, but the bed and headstock still
weighed
about twice as much as I can lift. i am going to make a
compression
spring for a fellow. So I take a break every now and then and
look
to
see if anyone is doing any metalwork.

g It sounds like my day, only I've been working on a frigging
dishwasher that suddenly started plastering lime deposits over
everything.

'All fixed now -- I think. Meanwhile, I did have to grind a
special
tool to get the upper spray head off. Why they don't use standard
tools for that kind of thing, I'll never understand. You'd think
they
were fastening hinges on a bank safe and wanted to make them
untouchable.

Lime deposits? Probably due to phosphate deprivation.

Joe Gwinn

Does phosphate take care of lime? I had the whole washer apart and
soaking in vinegar. I heat that the pros use dilute muriatic, but
open
the windows first.

Phosphate prevents the accumulation of lime in the first place, and
will remove deposits slowly. Organic acids like vinegar or citric acid
will work faster.

One thing to be careful of is that there may be zinc aluminum diemetal
components that can be dissolved if one is too aggressive.

One thing to try is running the dishwasher empty using TSP (trisodium
phosphate) from the paint store. Us the same amount as if the TSP were
the old Cascade. Make sure you get real TSP, not something sold as
equivalent, like sodium silicate. Savogran is the right brand, but
gotta read the label.

If you have a lab supply company [nearby], another thing to try Alconix
"Alcojet" detergent. This is used in labs to clean scientific
glassware and equipment. Works really well on stainless steel.

http://www.alconox.com/


http://www.amazon.com/Alconox-Nonion...ered-Detergent
/d
p/B003FZAQD8

Joe Gwinn

Thanks for the tips, Joe. Yes, I have real, 100% TSP. I'll try the
empty wash and use some with each load for a while.

I've tried running TSP in addition to zero-phosphate Cascade, and it
does work, but isn't perfect.

There is a commercial product that does better, and I'll remember the
name eventually. [It was Finish Glass Magic.]


I'm trying everything. Everything before the Alcojet first -- $35 for
four pounds?? That tilts my cheapskate meter, but if all else fails...

I have a box or two. It stores well, and is very effective.

One of the things I noticed when the detergents changed in ~2010 was
that coffee and tea cups developed a tightly adhering brown film that
even hand scrubbing didn't touch.

Alconox, the original lab detergent (which I first heard of while in
college), is intended for hand washing of labware, and so I tried it,
and noticed that the brown film peeled right off after a little
soaking.

Coffee and tea stains are still the waterloo of non-phosphate
detergents.

Alconox is also very good in ultrasonic cleaners.



Yesterday, after washing a load but AFTER the vinegar treatment, I had
to rinse all of the stainless steel with vinegar and then wash by
hand. Enough of that!

This continual liming of washed items is a classic mark of a detergent
problem.


And it happened all of a sudden, after years with no problems.

Wonder if the formula for whatever detergent you were using changed.
Or if you have a water softener that needs a recharge - hard water is
another waterloo for no-phosphate detergents. Or your local water
source changed.

Here are some reports:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/19/science/earth/19clean.html


http://www.npr.org/2010/12/15/132072...t-your-dishes-
are-still-dirty


http://complaintwire.org/complaint/P...-dishwasher-de
tergent-new-box

What make and model of dishwasher do you have? I think I remember it
was a Bosch.

No, mine is a Maytag. I'm going back at it this afternoon. After that,
I quit. d8-)

I'll store your suggestions in case I get the initiative to go at it
again. Thanks again.

Welcome. Good luck. Keep us posted.

Joe Gwinn

Joe, problem solved. Thanks for your help.

It was the result of a change in detergents. About five months ago my
local supermarket stopped carrying Finish powder, so I switched to
Cascade. I didn't think that could be it, since the Cascade seemed to
work fine for all those months.

But I talked to another friend who used to be a repairman for Sears.
He said it was almost certainly the detergent. So I bought some of
those fancy Finish capsules. I've run the dishwasher twice since then
and everything is sparkling clean. It even seems to eat off the lime
from stainless pots that already had a coating. I saved a couple
without giving them the vinegar treatment, just to see what would
happen.

Finish? That was the stuff I was trying to remember, specifically
Finish Glass Magic. Finish Quantum PowerBall too. The magic
ingredient is phosphate.

Finish, used to be Electrosol. I used the Finish Quantum packets.



So that appears to have been it. Now I can relax and fix the tub drain
in my bathroom. d8-)

Boiling lye, to dissolve the hairballs?

Not the problem. The problem is 90-year-old cast iron pipe that I was
having to auger out about once a month. The lye quit working 10 years
ago. Sulfuric acid stopped working 5 years ago. It's time to bite the
bullet.

I used a cast-iron pipe cracker and I've cracked the pipe at both
ends. Now I have to work fast and replace it with PVC. If my wife has
to bail the tub after showering during the work week, my ass is grass.
g


Actually, what I do is to put a pile of straight lye in the drain and
pour in about a cup of water, and let it work for awhile. Don't forget
to rinse it all away later.

Joe Gwinn

I was getting really good at that, buying my lye in bulk from these
guys:

http://www.essentialdepot.com/

They have frequent sales.

Thanks to the sulfuric acid, my next job is to re-finish the tub with
two-part polyurethane. Ugh. d8-(

--
Ed Huntress

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 14:47:18 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 19:38:08 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 12:37:28 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

again. Thanks again.

Welcome. Good luck. Keep us posted.

[snip]
Joe, problem solved. Thanks for your help.

It was the result of a change in detergents. About five months ago my
local supermarket stopped carrying Finish powder, so I switched to
Cascade. I didn't think that could be it, since the Cascade seemed to
work fine for all those months.

But I talked to another friend who used to be a repairman for Sears.
He said it was almost certainly the detergent. So I bought some of
those fancy Finish capsules. I've run the dishwasher twice since then
and everything is sparkling clean. It even seems to eat off the lime
from stainless pots that already had a coating. I saved a couple
without giving them the vinegar treatment, just to see what would
happen.

Finish? That was the stuff I was trying to remember, specifically
Finish Glass Magic. Finish Quantum PowerBall too. The magic
ingredient is phosphate.

Finish, used to be Electrosol. I used the Finish Quantum packets.



So that appears to have been it. Now I can relax and fix the tub drain
in my bathroom. d8-)

Boiling lye, to dissolve the hairballs?

Not the problem. The problem is 90-year-old cast iron pipe that I was
having to auger out about once a month. The lye quit working 10 years
ago. Sulfuric acid stopped working 5 years ago. It's time to bite the
bullet.

I used a cast-iron pipe cracker and I've cracked the pipe at both
ends. Now I have to work fast and replace it with PVC. If my wife has
to bail the tub after showering during the work week, my ass is grass.
g

The PVC pipe is noisier than cast iron, so you may want to wrap it in
something to keep toilet-flush sounds down. At the very least,
vibration isolate it from the joists and studs.


Actually, what I do is to put a pile of straight lye in the drain and
pour in about a cup of water, and let it work for awhile. Don't forget
to rinse it all away later.

Joe Gwinn

I was getting really good at that, buying my lye in bulk from these
guys:

http://www.essentialdepot.com/

They have frequent sales.

Good source of supply. Thanks.


Thanks to the sulfuric acid, my next job is to re-finish the tub with
two-part polyurethane. Ugh. d8-(

This cannot be a vitreous enameled cast iron tub, which would laugh at
anything save hydrofluoric acid.

Joe Gwinn

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 15:28:07 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 14:47:18 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 19:38:08 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 12:37:28 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

again. Thanks again.

Welcome. Good luck. Keep us posted.

[snip]
Joe, problem solved. Thanks for your help.

It was the result of a change in detergents. About five months ago my
local supermarket stopped carrying Finish powder, so I switched to
Cascade. I didn't think that could be it, since the Cascade seemed to
work fine for all those months.

But I talked to another friend who used to be a repairman for Sears.
He said it was almost certainly the detergent. So I bought some of
those fancy Finish capsules. I've run the dishwasher twice since then
and everything is sparkling clean. It even seems to eat off the lime
from stainless pots that already had a coating. I saved a couple
without giving them the vinegar treatment, just to see what would
happen.

Finish? That was the stuff I was trying to remember, specifically
Finish Glass Magic. Finish Quantum PowerBall too. The magic
ingredient is phosphate.

Finish, used to be Electrosol. I used the Finish Quantum packets.



So that appears to have been it. Now I can relax and fix the tub drain
in my bathroom. d8-)

Boiling lye, to dissolve the hairballs?

Not the problem. The problem is 90-year-old cast iron pipe that I was
having to auger out about once a month. The lye quit working 10 years
ago. Sulfuric acid stopped working 5 years ago. It's time to bite the
bullet.

I used a cast-iron pipe cracker and I've cracked the pipe at both
ends. Now I have to work fast and replace it with PVC. If my wife has
to bail the tub after showering during the work week, my ass is grass.
g

The PVC pipe is noisier than cast iron, so you may want to wrap it in
something to keep toilet-flush sounds down. At the very least,
vibration isolate it from the joists and studs.

Ok, but this is a horizontal stretch that drains only the tub.



Actually, what I do is to put a pile of straight lye in the drain and
pour in about a cup of water, and let it work for awhile. Don't forget
to rinse it all away later.

That's the way I did it. I was using a pound per shot at the end,
before it just quit.


Joe Gwinn

I was getting really good at that, buying my lye in bulk from these
guys:

http://www.essentialdepot.com/

They have frequent sales.

Good source of supply. Thanks.


Thanks to the sulfuric acid, my next job is to re-finish the tub with
two-part polyurethane. Ugh. d8-(

This cannot be a vitreous enameled cast iron tub, which would laugh at
anything save hydrofluoric acid.

Joe Gwinn

Yes, it is a vitreous enameled cast iron tub, probably 60 years old.
And yes, the sulfuric flaked the enamel off the surface. It's like
white sand in the bottom of the tub after you take a shower. And it
wore right through at the drain.

--
Ed Huntress

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 15:28:07 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 14:47:18 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 19:38:08 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 12:37:28 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

again. Thanks again.

Welcome. Good luck. Keep us posted.

[snip]
Joe, problem solved. Thanks for your help.

It was the result of a change in detergents. About five months ago my
local supermarket stopped carrying Finish powder, so I switched to
Cascade. I didn't think that could be it, since the Cascade seemed to
work fine for all those months.

But I talked to another friend who used to be a repairman for Sears.
He said it was almost certainly the detergent. So I bought some of
those fancy Finish capsules. I've run the dishwasher twice since then
and everything is sparkling clean. It even seems to eat off the lime
from stainless pots that already had a coating. I saved a couple
without giving them the vinegar treatment, just to see what would
happen.

Finish? That was the stuff I was trying to remember, specifically
Finish Glass Magic. Finish Quantum PowerBall too. The magic
ingredient is phosphate.

Finish, used to be Electrosol. I used the Finish Quantum packets.



So that appears to have been it. Now I can relax and fix the tub drain
in my bathroom. d8-)

Boiling lye, to dissolve the hairballs?

Not the problem. The problem is 90-year-old cast iron pipe that I was
having to auger out about once a month. The lye quit working 10 years
ago. Sulfuric acid stopped working 5 years ago. It's time to bite the
bullet.

I used a cast-iron pipe cracker and I've cracked the pipe at both
ends. Now I have to work fast and replace it with PVC. If my wife has
to bail the tub after showering during the work week, my ass is grass.
g

The PVC pipe is noisier than cast iron, so you may want to wrap it in
something to keep toilet-flush sounds down. At the very least,
vibration isolate it from the joists and studs.

Ok, but this is a horizontal stretch that drains only the tub.


Actually, what I do is to put a pile of straight lye in the drain and
pour in about a cup of water, and let it work for awhile. Don't forget
to rinse it all away later.

That's the way I did it. I was using a pound per shot at the end,
before it just quit.


Joe Gwinn

I was getting really good at that, buying my lye in bulk from these
guys:

http://www.essentialdepot.com/

They have frequent sales.

Good source of supply. Thanks.


Thanks to the sulfuric acid, my next job is to re-finish the tub with
two-part polyurethane. Ugh. d8-(

This cannot be a vitreous enameled cast iron tub, which would laugh at
anything save hydrofluoric acid.

Joe Gwinn

Yes, it is a vitreous enameled cast iron tub, probably 60 years old.
And yes, the sulfuric flaked the enamel off the surface. It's like
white sand in the bottom of the tub after you take a shower. And it
wore right through at the drain.

Probably just wore the enamel out, over the decades. Does a puddle of
water sit there, not quite able to drain? Glass does dissolve in
water, but very slowly. This will render the glass porous and fragile.

So, after the recoat, make sure that the tub drains completely, leaving
no puddles.

I've never recoated a bathtub, so I don't have any information on the
best approach, but I'd have to think that two-part epoxy is the best
way.

The key is to get things *really* clean - even the slightest soap film
will totally defeat adhesion. One needs to use an acid that will
chemically destroy the soap, especially the non-sodium soaps that form
the core of soap scum, then neutralize the acid, etc. And follow up
with Bon Ami and lots of elbow grease.

Joe Gwinn

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 16:00:16 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 15:28:07 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 14:47:18 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 19:38:08 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 12:37:28 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

again. Thanks again.

Welcome. Good luck. Keep us posted.

[snip]
Joe, problem solved. Thanks for your help.

It was the result of a change in detergents. About five months ago my
local supermarket stopped carrying Finish powder, so I switched to
Cascade. I didn't think that could be it, since the Cascade seemed to
work fine for all those months.

But I talked to another friend who used to be a repairman for Sears.
He said it was almost certainly the detergent. So I bought some of
those fancy Finish capsules. I've run the dishwasher twice since then
and everything is sparkling clean. It even seems to eat off the lime
from stainless pots that already had a coating. I saved a couple
without giving them the vinegar treatment, just to see what would
happen.

Finish? That was the stuff I was trying to remember, specifically
Finish Glass Magic. Finish Quantum PowerBall too. The magic
ingredient is phosphate.

Finish, used to be Electrosol. I used the Finish Quantum packets.



So that appears to have been it. Now I can relax and fix the tub drain
in my bathroom. d8-)

Boiling lye, to dissolve the hairballs?

Not the problem. The problem is 90-year-old cast iron pipe that I was
having to auger out about once a month. The lye quit working 10 years
ago. Sulfuric acid stopped working 5 years ago. It's time to bite the
bullet.

I used a cast-iron pipe cracker and I've cracked the pipe at both
ends. Now I have to work fast and replace it with PVC. If my wife has
to bail the tub after showering during the work week, my ass is grass.
g

The PVC pipe is noisier than cast iron, so you may want to wrap it in
something to keep toilet-flush sounds down. At the very least,
vibration isolate it from the joists and studs.

Ok, but this is a horizontal stretch that drains only the tub.


Actually, what I do is to put a pile of straight lye in the drain and
pour in about a cup of water, and let it work for awhile. Don't forget
to rinse it all away later.

That's the way I did it. I was using a pound per shot at the end,
before it just quit.


Joe Gwinn

I was getting really good at that, buying my lye in bulk from these
guys:

http://www.essentialdepot.com/

They have frequent sales.

Good source of supply. Thanks.


Thanks to the sulfuric acid, my next job is to re-finish the tub with
two-part polyurethane. Ugh. d8-(

This cannot be a vitreous enameled cast iron tub, which would laugh at
anything save hydrofluoric acid.

Joe Gwinn

Yes, it is a vitreous enameled cast iron tub, probably 60 years old.
And yes, the sulfuric flaked the enamel off the surface. It's like
white sand in the bottom of the tub after you take a shower. And it
wore right through at the drain.

Probably just wore the enamel out, over the decades. Does a puddle of
water sit there, not quite able to drain?

It would, if I didn't bail and sponge it out. But no, I don't leave
water standing in the tub.

Glass does dissolve in
water, but very slowly. This will render the glass porous and fragile.

So, after the recoat, make sure that the tub drains completely, leaving
no puddles.

I've never recoated a bathtub, so I don't have any information on the
best approach, but I'd have to think that two-part epoxy is the best
way.

Supposedly the two-part polyurethane is much more abrasion-resistant
than epoxy. That would agree with current treatment of
high-performance boats. I see that's what the quality refinishers are
using, and someone -- maybe Sherwin-Wiliams? PPG? makes a kit just for
that purpose. You apply it with a fine sponge roller. The spray is
highly toxic.


The key is to get things *really* clean - even the slightest soap film
will totally defeat adhesion. One needs to use an acid that will
chemically destroy the soap, especially the non-sodium soaps that form
the core of soap scum, then neutralize the acid, etc. And follow up
with Bon Ami and lots of elbow grease.

Joe Gwinn

I'll first sand it down a bit with a vibrating sander, I think, but
I'll be checking into the recommended prep methods first. I realize it
could be troublesome.

I appreciate the tips, Joe. I hate to screw these things up; there
isn't time to do it twice.

--
Ed Huntress

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 16:00:16 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 15:28:07 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 14:47:18 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 19:38:08 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 12:37:28 -0400, Joe Gwinn

wrote:

again. Thanks again.

Welcome. Good luck. Keep us posted.

[snip]
Joe, problem solved. Thanks for your help.

It was the result of a change in detergents. About five months ago my
local supermarket stopped carrying Finish powder, so I switched to
Cascade. I didn't think that could be it, since the Cascade seemed to
work fine for all those months.

But I talked to another friend who used to be a repairman for Sears.
He said it was almost certainly the detergent. So I bought some of
those fancy Finish capsules. I've run the dishwasher twice since then
and everything is sparkling clean. It even seems to eat off the lime
from stainless pots that already had a coating. I saved a couple
without giving them the vinegar treatment, just to see what would
happen.

Finish? That was the stuff I was trying to remember, specifically
Finish Glass Magic. Finish Quantum PowerBall too. The magic
ingredient is phosphate.

Finish, used to be Electrosol. I used the Finish Quantum packets.



So that appears to have been it. Now I can relax and fix the tub
drain
in my bathroom. d8-)

Boiling lye, to dissolve the hairballs?

Not the problem. The problem is 90-year-old cast iron pipe that I was
having to auger out about once a month. The lye quit working 10 years
ago. Sulfuric acid stopped working 5 years ago. It's time to bite the
bullet.

I used a cast-iron pipe cracker and I've cracked the pipe at both
ends. Now I have to work fast and replace it with PVC. If my wife has
to bail the tub after showering during the work week, my ass is grass.
g

The PVC pipe is noisier than cast iron, so you may want to wrap it in
something to keep toilet-flush sounds down. At the very least,
vibration isolate it from the joists and studs.

Ok, but this is a horizontal stretch that drains only the tub.


Actually, what I do is to put a pile of straight lye in the drain and
pour in about a cup of water, and let it work for awhile. Don't forget
to rinse it all away later.

That's the way I did it. I was using a pound per shot at the end,
before it just quit.


Joe Gwinn

I was getting really good at that, buying my lye in bulk from these
guys:

http://www.essentialdepot.com/

They have frequent sales.

Good source of supply. Thanks.


Thanks to the sulfuric acid, my next job is to re-finish the tub with
two-part polyurethane. Ugh. d8-(

This cannot be a vitreous enameled cast iron tub, which would laugh at
anything save hydrofluoric acid.

Joe Gwinn

Yes, it is a vitreous enameled cast iron tub, probably 60 years old.
And yes, the sulfuric flaked the enamel off the surface. It's like
white sand in the bottom of the tub after you take a shower. And it
wore right through at the drain.

Probably just wore the enamel out, over the decades. Does a puddle of
water sit there, not quite able to drain?

It would, if I didn't bail and sponge it out. But no, I don't leave
water standing in the tub.

Does the faucet drip? That too will cut a groove in the enamel.


Glass does dissolve in
water, but very slowly. This will render the glass porous and fragile.

So, after the recoat, make sure that the tub drains completely, leaving
no puddles.

I've never recoated a bathtub, so I don't have any information on the
best approach, but I'd have to think that two-part epoxy is the best
way.

Supposedly the two-part polyurethane is much more abrasion-resistant
than epoxy. That would agree with current treatment of
high-performance boats. I see that's what the quality refinishers are
using, and someone -- maybe Sherwin-Wiliams? PPG? makes a kit just for
that purpose. You apply it with a fine sponge roller. The spray is
highly toxic.

OK. Sounds like Imron.


The key is to get things *really* clean - even the slightest soap film
will totally defeat adhesion. One needs to use an acid that will
chemically destroy the soap, especially the non-sodium soaps that form
the core of soap scum, then neutralize the acid, etc. And follow up
with Bon Ami and lots of elbow grease.

Joe Gwinn

I'll first sand it down a bit with a vibrating sander, I think, but
I'll be checking into the recommended prep methods first. I realize it
could be troublesome.

I would *not* use a power sander, for fear of accidentally cutting
through to the iron.

I'd use wet-dry sandpaper on a rubber block, wet. And a bright light
not in your eyes, so you can see what's going on.


I appreciate the tips, Joe. I hate to screw these things up; there
isn't time to do it twice.

Yeah. I'd look up the paint manufacturer's instructions on cleaning.
Do they offer this paint as suitable for bathtubs? If so, they will
have detailed instructions.

Joe Gwinn

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 17:29:42 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 16:00:16 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 15:28:07 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 14:47:18 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 19:38:08 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 12:37:28 -0400, Joe Gwinn

wrote:

again. Thanks again.

Welcome. Good luck. Keep us posted.

[snip]
Joe, problem solved. Thanks for your help.

It was the result of a change in detergents. About five months ago my
local supermarket stopped carrying Finish powder, so I switched to
Cascade. I didn't think that could be it, since the Cascade seemed to
work fine for all those months.

But I talked to another friend who used to be a repairman for Sears.
He said it was almost certainly the detergent. So I bought some of
those fancy Finish capsules. I've run the dishwasher twice since then
and everything is sparkling clean. It even seems to eat off the lime
from stainless pots that already had a coating. I saved a couple
without giving them the vinegar treatment, just to see what would
happen.

Finish? That was the stuff I was trying to remember, specifically
Finish Glass Magic. Finish Quantum PowerBall too. The magic
ingredient is phosphate.

Finish, used to be Electrosol. I used the Finish Quantum packets.



So that appears to have been it. Now I can relax and fix the tub
drain
in my bathroom. d8-)

Boiling lye, to dissolve the hairballs?

Not the problem. The problem is 90-year-old cast iron pipe that I was
having to auger out about once a month. The lye quit working 10 years
ago. Sulfuric acid stopped working 5 years ago. It's time to bite the
bullet.

I used a cast-iron pipe cracker and I've cracked the pipe at both
ends. Now I have to work fast and replace it with PVC. If my wife has
to bail the tub after showering during the work week, my ass is grass.
g

The PVC pipe is noisier than cast iron, so you may want to wrap it in
something to keep toilet-flush sounds down. At the very least,
vibration isolate it from the joists and studs.

Ok, but this is a horizontal stretch that drains only the tub.


Actually, what I do is to put a pile of straight lye in the drain and
pour in about a cup of water, and let it work for awhile. Don't forget
to rinse it all away later.

That's the way I did it. I was using a pound per shot at the end,
before it just quit.


Joe Gwinn

I was getting really good at that, buying my lye in bulk from these
guys:

http://www.essentialdepot.com/

They have frequent sales.

Good source of supply. Thanks.


Thanks to the sulfuric acid, my next job is to re-finish the tub with
two-part polyurethane. Ugh. d8-(

This cannot be a vitreous enameled cast iron tub, which would laugh at
anything save hydrofluoric acid.

Joe Gwinn

Yes, it is a vitreous enameled cast iron tub, probably 60 years old.
And yes, the sulfuric flaked the enamel off the surface. It's like
white sand in the bottom of the tub after you take a shower. And it
wore right through at the drain.

Probably just wore the enamel out, over the decades. Does a puddle of
water sit there, not quite able to drain?

It would, if I didn't bail and sponge it out. But no, I don't leave
water standing in the tub.

Does the faucet drip? That too will cut a groove in the enamel.


Glass does dissolve in
water, but very slowly. This will render the glass porous and fragile.

So, after the recoat, make sure that the tub drains completely, leaving
no puddles.

I've never recoated a bathtub, so I don't have any information on the
best approach, but I'd have to think that two-part epoxy is the best
way.

Supposedly the two-part polyurethane is much more abrasion-resistant
than epoxy. That would agree with current treatment of
high-performance boats. I see that's what the quality refinishers are
using, and someone -- maybe Sherwin-Wiliams? PPG? makes a kit just for
that purpose. You apply it with a fine sponge roller. The spray is
highly toxic.

OK. Sounds like Imron.


The key is to get things *really* clean - even the slightest soap film
will totally defeat adhesion. One needs to use an acid that will
chemically destroy the soap, especially the non-sodium soaps that form
the core of soap scum, then neutralize the acid, etc. And follow up
with Bon Ami and lots of elbow grease.

Joe Gwinn

I'll first sand it down a bit with a vibrating sander, I think, but
I'll be checking into the recommended prep methods first. I realize it
could be troublesome.

I would *not* use a power sander, for fear of accidentally cutting
through to the iron.

I'd use wet-dry sandpaper on a rubber block, wet. And a bright light
not in your eyes, so you can see what's going on.


I appreciate the tips, Joe. I hate to screw these things up; there
isn't time to do it twice.

Yeah. I'd look up the paint manufacturer's instructions on cleaning.
Do they offer this paint as suitable for bathtubs? If so, they will
have detailed instructions.

Joe Gwinn

Yes, it's made for bathtubs. I'll be very careful and make sure I have
instructions for doing it. I'm kind of attached to our old tub, and I
don't want to go three or four days without a shower because I screwed
it up. I'd feel like I was back in France, but without a bidet. d8-)

(Actually, I'd just walk down to the YMCA and shower there. I've
planned for emergencies.)

--
Ed Huntress

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 17:29:42 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 16:00:16 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 15:28:07 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 14:47:18 -0400, Joe Gwinn
wrote:

In article , Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 19:38:08 -0400, Joe Gwinn

wrote:

In article , Ed
Huntress
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 12:37:28 -0400, Joe Gwinn

wrote:

again. Thanks again.

Welcome. Good luck. Keep us posted.

[snip]
Joe, problem solved. Thanks for your help.

It was the result of a change in detergents. About five months
ago my
local supermarket stopped carrying Finish powder, so I switched to
Cascade. I didn't think that could be it, since the Cascade
seemed to
work fine for all those months.

But I talked to another friend who used to be a repairman for
Sears.
He said it was almost certainly the detergent. So I bought some of
those fancy Finish capsules. I've run the dishwasher twice since
then
and everything is sparkling clean. It even seems to eat off the
lime
from stainless pots that already had a coating. I saved a couple
without giving them the vinegar treatment, just to see what would
happen.

Finish? That was the stuff I was trying to remember, specifically
Finish Glass Magic. Finish Quantum PowerBall too. The magic
ingredient is phosphate.

Finish, used to be Electrosol. I used the Finish Quantum packets.



So that appears to have been it. Now I can relax and fix the tub
drain
in my bathroom. d8-)

Boiling lye, to dissolve the hairballs?

Not the problem. The problem is 90-year-old cast iron pipe that I was
having to auger out about once a month. The lye quit working 10 years
ago. Sulfuric acid stopped working 5 years ago. It's time to bite the
bullet.

I used a cast-iron pipe cracker and I've cracked the pipe at both
ends. Now I have to work fast and replace it with PVC. If my wife has
to bail the tub after showering during the work week, my ass is
grass.
g

The PVC pipe is noisier than cast iron, so you may want to wrap it in
something to keep toilet-flush sounds down. At the very least,
vibration isolate it from the joists and studs.

Ok, but this is a horizontal stretch that drains only the tub.


Actually, what I do is to put a pile of straight lye in the drain
and
pour in about a cup of water, and let it work for awhile. Don't
forget
to rinse it all away later.

That's the way I did it. I was using a pound per shot at the end,
before it just quit.


Joe Gwinn

I was getting really good at that, buying my lye in bulk from these
guys:

http://www.essentialdepot.com/

They have frequent sales.

Good source of supply. Thanks.


Thanks to the sulfuric acid, my next job is to re-finish the tub with
two-part polyurethane. Ugh. d8-(

This cannot be a vitreous enameled cast iron tub, which would laugh at
anything save hydrofluoric acid.

Joe Gwinn

Yes, it is a vitreous enameled cast iron tub, probably 60 years old.
And yes, the sulfuric flaked the enamel off the surface. It's like
white sand in the bottom of the tub after you take a shower. And it
wore right through at the drain.

Probably just wore the enamel out, over the decades. Does a puddle of
water sit there, not quite able to drain?

It would, if I didn't bail and sponge it out. But no, I don't leave
water standing in the tub.

Does the faucet drip? That too will cut a groove in the enamel.


Glass does dissolve in
water, but very slowly. This will render the glass porous and fragile.

So, after the recoat, make sure that the tub drains completely, leaving
no puddles.

I've never recoated a bathtub, so I don't have any information on the
best approach, but I'd have to think that two-part epoxy is the best
way.

Supposedly the two-part polyurethane is much more abrasion-resistant
than epoxy. That would agree with current treatment of
high-performance boats. I see that's what the quality refinishers are
using, and someone -- maybe Sherwin-Wiliams? PPG? makes a kit just for
that purpose. You apply it with a fine sponge roller. The spray is
highly toxic.

OK. Sounds like Imron.


The key is to get things *really* clean - even the slightest soap film
will totally defeat adhesion. One needs to use an acid that will
chemically destroy the soap, especially the non-sodium soaps that form
the core of soap scum, then neutralize the acid, etc. And follow up
with Bon Ami and lots of elbow grease.

Joe Gwinn

I'll first sand it down a bit with a vibrating sander, I think, but
I'll be checking into the recommended prep methods first. I realize it
could be troublesome.

I would *not* use a power sander, for fear of accidentally cutting
through to the iron.

I'd use wet-dry sandpaper on a rubber block, wet. And a bright light
not in your eyes, so you can see what's going on.


I appreciate the tips, Joe. I hate to screw these things up; there
isn't time to do it twice.

Yeah. I'd look up the paint manufacturer's instructions on cleaning.
Do they offer this paint as suitable for bathtubs? If so, they will
have detailed instructions.

Joe Gwinn

Yes, it's made for bathtubs. I'll be very careful and make sure I have
instructions for doing it. I'm kind of attached to our old tub, and I
don't want to go three or four days without a shower because I screwed
it up. I'd feel like I was back in France, but without a bidet. d8-)

(Actually, I'd just walk down to the YMCA and shower there. I've
planned for emergencies.)

Good luck. Tell us how it comes out. Even if it isn't metalworking.

Joe Gwinn

" wrote:

On Mar 20, 10:47 am, Ed Huntress wrote:

Wrong. There is speculation, but no argument. Saying how many people
want to do sometihing is not an argument.

Go for it, Dan. Whatever satisfies the definitions in your head is
fine with me.

Try thinking.


He would be an engineer instead of an editor, if he could think.


--

Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

Sometimes Friday is just the fifth Monday of the week.

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 22:07:26 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


" wrote:

On Mar 20, 10:47 am, Ed Huntress wrote:

Wrong. There is speculation, but no argument. Saying how many people
want to do sometihing is not an argument.

Go for it, Dan. Whatever satisfies the definitions in your head is
fine with me.

Try thinking.


He would be an engineer instead of an editor, if he could think.

Up yours, you narrow-minded, self-aggrandizing, petty, snotty and
bitter old man.

--
Ed Huntress

On Mar 19, 10:36*am, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
" wrote:

On Mar 19, 2:33 am, Ed Huntress wrote:

So what? Assault rifles are despised by more than half of the US
population and they want to ban them (data on request) because they're
the vile weapons used in mass murders by lunatics.

Ed Huntress

Just because more than half of the U.S. population despises assault
rifles and wants to ban them is not a valid argument for banning
assault rifles.

Assault rifles are the sort of rifles *that armies use. *The sort of
gun that a well regulated militia should have. *So banning them goes
against the Constitution. *And the rifles are just rifles. *There is
nothing vile about them. * What is vile is the movies and video games
that show people killing each other.

* *We need to ban liberal editors who play too many word games. *AKA:
Kill filed.

--
Politicians should only get paid if the budget is balanced, and there is
enough left over to pay them.

You fix your leaking roofs yet, Terrell?

On Mar 20, 7:01*am, Larry Jaques
wrote:
On Tue, 19 Mar 2013 22:53:33 -0500, Martin Eastburn

wrote:
And to back up the half and half - Most women would love not to
have a man in their life. *They haven't been able to wipe us out
to their desire or lack thereof. *Martin

And, along that line, logic dictates... *http://tinyurl.com/c9k2qhh









On 3/19/2013 10:53 AM, wrote:
On Mar 19, 2:33 am, Ed Huntress wrote:

So what? Assault rifles are despised by more than half of the US
population and they want to ban them (data on request) because they're
the vile weapons used in mass murders by lunatics.

Ed Huntress

Just because more than half of the U.S. population despises assault
rifles and wants to ban them is not a valid argument for banning
assault rifles.

Assault rifles are the sort of rifles *that armies use. *The sort of
gun that a well regulated militia should have. *So banning them goes
against the Constitution. *And the rifles are just rifles. *There is
nothing vile about them. * What is vile is the movies and video games
that show people killing each other.

I like seeing that because it takes it out of me. I love seeing some
bad guy get what's coming to him. *It's so unlike real life (amidst
CONgresscritters (and Speaking Weasels and other libruls) where the
bad guys are given more rights than the victims.

I just watched Atlas Shrugged and believe that Ayn Rand was absolutely
right. *We ARE headed down that very same punkass path.

--
In order to become the master, the politician poses as the servant.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *--Charles de Gaulle

"I just watched Atlas Shrugged and believe that Ayn Rand was
absolutely right. We ARE headed down that very same punkass path."

Exactly the kind of statement I'd expect from Larry Jackass:

http://tinyurl.com/bexf5xa

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013 19:30:09 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer
wrote:

snip
Just because more than half of the U.S. population despises assault
rifles and wants to ban them is not a valid argument for banning
assault rifles.
snip

It would be a far more persuasive argument if the half the
people in the US that despises "assault rifles" could define
what an assault rifle was. These doofuses still think there
are full-automatic weapons and machine guns being legally
sold, which has been illegal since 1934 without special
permits and licenses, although the 200$ transfer tax was
contested.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act




--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

"RogerN" on Sat, 16 Mar 2013 23:13:02 -0500 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
I have read that, according to some,

Washington State - no just any ol' "Some" B-)

RCW 9.41.220
Unlawful firearms and parts contraband.


All machine guns, short-barreled shotguns, or short-barreled rifles,
or any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in a
machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or in
converting a weapon into a machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or
short-barreled rifle, illegally held or illegally possessed are hereby
declared to be contraband, and it shall be the duty of all peace
officers, and/or any officer or member of the armed forces of the
United States or the state of Washington, to seize said machine gun,
short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, or parts thereof,
wherever and whenever found.

if you have machine gun parts you can
go to prison for trying to build a machine gun. If that's so, how to they
sell machine gun parts kits?

What is legal in one state, may not be illegal in another. I can
buy a Semi-auto version of an M16 in Washington or Oregon. I can buy
a full auto version of a an M16 in Oregon. I can do neither in
California.

I'm in process of building an AR-15 and am curious, from what I see, the M16
lower receiver is different than an AR-15 lower receiver. M16 full-auto
parts installed in an AR-15 won't make a machine gun because there is no
hole for the auto-sear and the area is milled different, no room for the
auto sear. So, in an AR-15 receiver, all the full auto parts that you could
fit would let it work normally in safe and semi, but Auto would only let the
hammer follow the bolt forward and you would have to pull the "Charging
handle" to re-cock the hammer. It seems everything except the auto-sear
would work in an AR-15 for safe and semi, selecting full auto would only let
the hammer down without firing.

To me, it seems that jailing someone for having some machine gun part, that
work fine in an AR-15's, is kind of like throwing a man in jail for rape
because he has a penis. Or giving everyone a speeding ticket because their
car is capable of speeding. Crazy!

Reading it a bit expansively - "any part designed and intended
solely and exclusively for use in" a machine gun. Thus, at least in
Washington having a penis does not make you a rapists. Having the
part which makes an Ar15 "Semi" version into an M-16 "Full auto" -
those who know both machines will know which is it which - is what
will get you busted.. I can make parts which are interchangeable
till my arms fall off. But make one that is mean only for the
full-auto version only - jail time.


Oh, and this law was passed to prevent the Wobblies from taking
over Washington.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."