Watching Alaska State Troopers yesterday and saw
a .410 shotgun revolver. I didn't know such a
thing existed. So this raises an interesting
point. When does a pistol firing shotgun shells
become a sawed-off shotgun? Or when does a sawed-
off shotgun become a legal pistol?

Jim Stewart wrote:
Watching Alaska State Troopers yesterday and saw
a .410 shotgun revolver. I didn't know such a
thing existed. So this raises an interesting
point. When does a pistol firing shotgun shells
become a sawed-off shotgun? Or when does a sawed-
off shotgun become a legal pistol?

If it started life as a pistol , it's legal . If it originally was a "long
gun" it cannot be converted to a pistol . If you add a shoulder stock , it
becomes a "long gun" and cannot be converted back . It will be illegal
unless you also lengthen the barrel . We did a lot of research on this , my
son accepted an AR type 5.56mm pistol in lieu of rent money (he's legal ...)
.. He's going to leave it in the original configuration to avoid any chance
of legal hassles .
--
Snag
Learning keeps
you young !

On 2/13/2012 10:34 AM, Jim Stewart wrote:
Watching Alaska State Troopers yesterday and saw
a .410 shotgun revolver. I didn't know such a
thing existed. So this raises an interesting
point. When does a pistol firing shotgun shells
become a sawed-off shotgun? Or when does a sawed-
off shotgun become a legal pistol?

Not that Wikipedia is always authoritative, but the entry for .410 gauge
says the following:

The fact that the .410 bore shell fits in a .45 Colt chamber has
resulted in some unusual applications. While shotguns are often
limited in minimum length, a firearm chambered in .45 Colt, such
as the Contender pistol, is not defined as a shotgun even though
it can chamber shotgun shells since the barrel is rifled, not smooth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.410_bore#Handguns

Jim Stewart wrote:
Watching Alaska State Troopers yesterday and saw
a .410 shotgun revolver. I didn't know such a
thing existed. So this raises an interesting
point. When does a pistol firing shotgun shells
become a sawed-off shotgun? Or when does a sawed-
off shotgun become a legal pistol?

Dunno.

http://www.taurususa.com/gun-selecto...s=41&toggle=tr

--Winston

"Winston" wrote in message
...
Jim Stewart wrote:
Watching Alaska State Troopers yesterday and saw
a .410 shotgun revolver. I didn't know such a
thing existed. So this raises an interesting
point. When does a pistol firing shotgun shells
become a sawed-off shotgun? Or when does a sawed-
off shotgun become a legal pistol?

Dunno.

http://www.taurususa.com/gun-selecto...s=41&toggle=tr

--Winston

I think they are officially chambered for .45 Colt and the .410 that also
fits is feeble enough to just ignore. The next step up is in legal limbo:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...auge-revolver/

Jim Stewart fired this volley in news:jhbl2n$sc6$1
@dont-email.me:

So this raises an interesting
point. When does a pistol firing shotgun shells
become a sawed-off shotgun? Or when does a sawed-
off shotgun become a legal pistol?


I have one: A Taurus Judge.

It has a concession to being a handgun... it has a rifled barrel.
It has a concession to firing shotshells... the barrel is only very
lightly rifled to avoid "spinning out" the shot from the pattern.

It is legal in most states, and federally, because it IS a handgun
designed to shoot .45 long Colt. It just "happens" to handle 2-3/4" .410
shells, as well. G

LLoyd

Jim Wilkins wrote:

(...)

The next step up is in legal limbo:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...auge-revolver/

Inga: He vould have an enormous revolver.
Dr. Frederick Fronkensteen: That goes without saying.
Inga: Voof.
Igor: He's going to be very popular.

--Winston

On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:34:03 -0800, Jim Stewart
wrote:

Watching Alaska State Troopers yesterday and saw
a .410 shotgun revolver. I didn't know such a
thing existed.

Yeah, pretty cool, huh? That's the Taurus Judge. Would you look at
the length of that cylinder? Sumbitch is a heavy bastid, too. And I
wouldn't want to spend more than 1 minute at the range with one.
It'd be a great snake gun. Hear the rattle, take it out NOW! I'm sure
they'd work well in home defense situations, too.


So this raises an interesting
point. When does a pistol firing shotgun shells
become a sawed-off shotgun? Or when does a sawed-
off shotgun become a legal pistol?

Um, er, maybe 12ga? That's too big for most wrists to handle, even on
Big Bubba. I'll bet that if one is used to murder a bank guard during
a holdup, the ATF will immediately reclassify it as a sawed-off, an
illegal weapon, and ban it.

--
To use fear as the friend it is, we must retrain and reprogram ourselves...
We must persistently and convincingly tell ourselves that the fear is
here--with its gift of energy and heightened awareness--so we can do our
best and learn the most in the new situation.
Peter McWilliams, Life 101

On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 13:06:02 -0600, "Snag" wrote:

Jim Stewart wrote:
Watching Alaska State Troopers yesterday and saw
a .410 shotgun revolver. I didn't know such a
thing existed. So this raises an interesting
point. When does a pistol firing shotgun shells
become a sawed-off shotgun? Or when does a sawed-
off shotgun become a legal pistol?

If it started life as a pistol , it's legal . If it originally was a "long
gun" it cannot be converted to a pistol . If you add a shoulder stock , it
becomes a "long gun" and cannot be converted back . It will be illegal
unless you also lengthen the barrel . We did a lot of research on this , my
son accepted an AR type 5.56mm pistol in lieu of rent money (he's legal ...)
. He's going to leave it in the original configuration to avoid any chance
of legal hassles .
In a gun shop in New Brunswick I saw a long barreled revolver (.22 cal
IIRC) with a folding stock, very nice little piece.

On Feb 13, 11:34*am, Jim Stewart wrote:
Watching Alaska State Troopers yesterday and saw
a .410 shotgun revolver. *I didn't know such a
thing existed. *So this raises an interesting
point. *When does a pistol firing shotgun shells
become a sawed-off shotgun? *Or when does a sawed-
off shotgun become a legal pistol?

This gets by the NFA regs on short-barreled shotguns and Any Other
Weapons because it's rifled and fires .45 Colt, so it's considered a
regular revolver with very long chambers. If it was a smoothbore, it
would have to be properly registered as a NFA weapon and have a tax
stamp issued to be legal. Legal length for a shotgun barrel is 18",
overall length has to be =26". Rossi/Taurus started this crap with
The Judge, S&W has The Governor, there are "self-defense" .410 shells
now being made for both. I really don't see the utility, myself, but
they sell like hotcakes so somebody does. I've done enough testing 30
years back with shot handloads in a .45 revolver to determine that
they don't really have any utility for anything I'm likely to do. The
donut effect is still there and a one-piece .45 Colt slug is still
likely to be a lot more decisive than a shower of shot. Kind of
expensive fun for just plinking, too, .410s aren't cheap. Even .410
components aren't cheap. It's a novelty item. Keeps the wheels of
industry rolling though.

There are no legal 20 gauge or 12 gauge pistol rounds, so .410 is
going to be it for this sort of gun. Half-inch bore size is the legal
threshold for being considered a Destructive Device. Such things can
still be made, by those with the proper legal blessing, though.

Stan

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message ...

Watching Alaska State Troopers yesterday and saw
a .410 shotgun revolver. I didn't know such a
thing existed. So this raises an interesting
point. When does a pistol firing shotgun shells
become a sawed-off shotgun? Or when does a sawed-
off shotgun become a legal pistol?

In the 60's I remember firing a .410 pistol. Belonged to a cousin or uncle.
It was a break-action single-shot, smooth-barreled. The barrel was about as
long as what they call a "Buntline special". I was just a teen-ager at the
time, with no special knowledge about firearms except a desire to be able to
hunt with the uncles and cousins, so I don't have any recollection about
brand or model. I do remember that no one made any big deal about it, with
respect to legality. We were just walking around the farm, my younger
brother and I and a a same-aged cousin, and I lifted it up and took a shot
at a crow that was flying over cross-wise to our path. Brought him down.
Surprised the hell out of me.

Tom

Stanley Schaefer fired this volley in news:decf816d-
:

I've done enough testing 30
years back with shot handloads in a .45 revolver to determine that
they don't really have any utility for anything I'm likely to do. The
donut effect is still there and a one-piece .45 Colt slug is still
likely to be a lot more decisive than a shower of shot.

The "donut effect" you described has been more or less minimized in the
Judge. They only very lightly rifle the barrel for the purpose of
keeping it a unlicensed handgun, and it does quite well with the pattern.

I've shot skeet with it (close.. 10yd).

Lloyd

On Tue, 14 Feb 2012 11:34:32 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Stanley Schaefer fired this volley in news:decf816d-
:

I've done enough testing 30
years back with shot handloads in a .45 revolver to determine that
they don't really have any utility for anything I'm likely to do. The
donut effect is still there and a one-piece .45 Colt slug is still
likely to be a lot more decisive than a shower of shot.

The "donut effect" you described has been more or less minimized in the
Judge. They only very lightly rifle the barrel for the purpose of
keeping it a unlicensed handgun, and it does quite well with the pattern.

I've shot skeet with it (close.. 10yd).

Lloyd

The only advantage I can see..is the multi ball loads that are coming
out now. Hitting someone with 3-5 slugs with a single pull of the
trigger is really gonna smart on the receiving end, but...shrug..Ill
just stay with the 1911. I want to see daylight though the holes Ive
made in the attacker.

Gunner

--

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

I want to see daylight though the holes Ive
made in the attacker.


See, I made a decision, based on my RVN experiences. I shot a few guys.
They died.

If someone is attacking my family for harm or has determined they're
going to kill me for a buck, I'll empty the wheel into their chest. But
if someone is just trying to heist my wallet, I'll at least give them the
chance to survive the experience.

To that end, the _FIRST_ round in my Judge (my daily carry) is a #6 shot
round. I figure that will really "distract" a perp if he gets it full in
the face. (it's also easier not to miss under pressure -- wide spray,
that gun, wide spray) If not, the rest are "flying ashtray" Spears
defense rounds.

It's just me, but I won't kill someone for $100.00. I will if they mess
with my peeps or threaten my life, though.

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
But
if someone is just trying to heist my wallet, I'll at least give them the
chance to survive the experience.

LLoyd

I was sorry I made the kid mess himself and actually gave him a little
money.

On Feb 14, 4:35*pm, "Jim Wilkins" wrote:
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message

But
if someone is just trying to heist my wallet, I'll at least give them the
chance to survive the experience.

LLoyd

I was sorry I made the kid mess himself and actually gave him a little
money.

Here is a link to the Box of Truth report on the Talus Judge.

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm

Summery: Good for snakes and not much else.

toolbreaker fired this volley in news:f7936f70-
:

Summery: Good for snakes and not much else.

Summery sic -- the shot round is for shock effect. It's awesomely
loud, and stings like hell. The Spears self defense rounds kill nicely.

The weapon shoots accurately, considering the light rifling, and is more
than manageable, both in terms of weight/size, and recoil.

You don't even own one. There was nothing negative in that review except
that the guy admits to having wimpy wrists, and .410 shotshells aren't
good defense rounds. Everyone who owns large calibre handguns knows
that. FWIW, even a 9mm isn't all _that_ effective for personal defense,
although I'm sure it would stop most perps.

I don't own a "Talus Judge". Mine is a Taurus Judge.

LLoyd

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

It's just me, but I won't kill someone for $100.00. I will if they
mess with my peeps or threaten my life, though.

You're not killing them for $100, you're killing them because they pose an
immediate and significant threat to your life.

Jon

"Jon Danniken" fired this volley
in :

You're not killing them for $100, you're killing them because they
pose an immediate and significant threat to your life.

YMMV. I was trained to, and still do, evaluate the threat. I'm not a
superman, and will rely on the gun before bravado. But there's an
obvious difference (to me) between a 'strongarm mugger' and a real threat
to my life. I train myself twice weekly, both with mental exercises and
live fire. Practice makes for deliberate actions. You can't think, in
those situations. You have to rely on (mental) "muscle memory".

I have the weapon at the ready. I will shoot with the birdshot first,
unless the threat level demands more. (no tracing on the ballistics of a
shot round, anyway). Well, actually, I'll shoot with the birdshot first
no matter what, because it's in the first chamber, but I can "double-
tap" right along with the best. If I fire the shot round only, I can
walk away, and leave him disabled or crying... IF the circumstances
permit. If not, then, "sorry".

Too many people who carry do so without any mental or physical
discipline. It takes work. Regular work.

LLoyd

And, how can you be sure the perp will stop with just some money? Some have
a sick side, too.

Well, not that normal healthy people commit armed robberies, though.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Jon Danniken" wrote in message
...
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

It's just me, but I won't kill someone for $100.00. I will if they
mess with my peeps or threaten my life, though.

You're not killing them for $100, you're killing them because they pose an
immediate and significant threat to your life.

Jon

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote

I don't own a "Talus Judge". Mine is a Taurus Judge.

LLoyd

I thought Talus was a cheap knockoff of an expensive piece of junk.

Steve

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote

Too many people who carry do so without any mental or physical
discipline. It takes work. Regular work.

LLoyd

Sorry. Too busy with real work and real life to spend that much time on
imaginary scenarios. I guess some people are just lucky.

Steve

On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 12:19:12 -0800, "Jon Danniken"
wrote:

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

It's just me, but I won't kill someone for $100.00. I will if they
mess with my peeps or threaten my life, though.

You're not killing them for $100, you're killing them because they pose an
immediate and significant threat to your life.

Jon

Indeed.

Ive seen guys killed for $13 in their pockets




--
One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 14:52:08 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

"Jon Danniken" fired this volley
in :

You're not killing them for $100, you're killing them because they
pose an immediate and significant threat to your life.

YMMV. I was trained to, and still do, evaluate the threat. I'm not a
superman, and will rely on the gun before bravado. But there's an
obvious difference (to me) between a 'strongarm mugger' and a real threat
to my life. I train myself twice weekly, both with mental exercises and
live fire. Practice makes for deliberate actions. You can't think, in
those situations. You have to rely on (mental) "muscle memory".

I have the weapon at the ready. I will shoot with the birdshot first,
unless the threat level demands more. (no tracing on the ballistics of a
shot round, anyway). Well, actually, I'll shoot with the birdshot first
no matter what, because it's in the first chamber, but I can "double-
tap" right along with the best. If I fire the shot round only, I can
walk away, and leave him disabled or crying... IF the circumstances
permit. If not, then, "sorry".

Too many people who carry do so without any mental or physical
discipline. It takes work. Regular work.

LLoyd

That is true most indeedy.

Gunner

--
One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 19:27:19 -0800, "Steve B" wrote:


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote

Too many people who carry do so without any mental or physical
discipline. It takes work. Regular work.

LLoyd

Sorry. Too busy with real work and real life to spend that much time on
imaginary scenarios. I guess some people are just lucky.

Steve

Its not imaginary scenarios..its muscle memory that you are training.

Without it..the brain tends to skid, swerve and forget its trying to
keep the body alive.

Gunner

--
One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Feb 15, 2:52*pm, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
"Jon Danniken" fired this volley
:

You're not killing them for $100, you're killing them because they
pose an immediate and significant threat to your life.

YMMV. I was trained to, and still do, evaluate the threat. *I'm not a
superman, and will rely on the gun before bravado. *But there's an
obvious difference (to me) between a 'strongarm mugger' and a real threat
to my life. *I train myself twice weekly, both with mental exercises and
live fire. *Practice makes for deliberate actions. *You can't think, in
those situations. *You have to rely on (mental) "muscle memory".

I have the weapon at the ready. *I will shoot with the birdshot first,
unless the threat level demands more. (no tracing on the ballistics of a
shot round, anyway). *Well, actually, I'll shoot with the birdshot first
no matter what, because it's in the first chamber, but I can "double-
tap" right along with the best. *If I fire the shot round only, I can
walk away, and leave him disabled or crying... IF the circumstances
permit. *If not, then, "sorry".

Too many people who carry do so without any mental or physical
discipline. *It takes work. *Regular work.

LLoyd

You sound like someone who will be sued for everything he
has...including his precious toy guns.

TMT

On Feb 16, 9:27*pm, "Steve B" wrote:
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote

Too many people who carry do so without any mental or physical
discipline. *It takes work. *Regular work.

LLoyd

Sorry. *Too busy with real work and real life to spend that much time on
imaginary scenarios. *I guess some people are just lucky.

Steve

Or paranoid.

I bet his neighbors have 911 on speed dial because of him.

TMT

On Feb 19, 4:17*am, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 12:19:12 -0800, "Jon Danniken"

wrote:
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

It's just me, but I won't kill someone for $100.00. *I will if they
mess with my peeps or threaten my life, though.

You're not killing them for $100, you're killing them because they pose an
immediate and significant threat to your life.

Jon

Indeed.

Ive seen guys killed for $13 in their pockets

--
One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Gunner Asch

Is that $12 more than you have in your pockets?

TMT

On Feb 19, 4:19*am, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 19:27:19 -0800, "Steve B" wrote:

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote

Too many people who carry do so without any mental or physical
discipline. *It takes work. *Regular work.

LLoyd

Sorry. *Too busy with real work and real life to spend that much time on
imaginary scenarios. *I guess some people are just lucky.

Steve

Its not imaginary scenarios..its muscle memory that you are training.

Without it..the brain tends to skid, swerve and forget its trying to
keep *the body alive.

Gunner

--
One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Gunner Asch

Speaking from experience?

TMT

Too_Many_Tools fired this volley in
:

Or paranoid.

I bet his neighbors have 911 on speed dial because of him.

You're a weak-minded man, TMT.

Everyone in my neighborhood is armed. It's "the country thing".

Nobody thinks twice about hearing target practice.

You should practice. It might correct some of your trepidations about
dealing with humans.

Lloyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:

You're a weak-minded man, TMT.

Everyone in my neighborhood is armed. It's "the country thing".

Nobody thinks twice about hearing target practice.

You should practice. It might correct some of your trepidations about
dealing with humans.


He'd shoot his eye out!


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

Gunner Asch on Sun, 19 Feb 2012 02:19:53 -0800
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 19:27:19 -0800, "Steve B" wrote:


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote

Too many people who carry do so without any mental or physical
discipline. It takes work. Regular work.

LLoyd

Sorry. Too busy with real work and real life to spend that much time on
imaginary scenarios. I guess some people are just lucky.

Steve

Its not imaginary scenarios..its muscle memory that you are training.

Without it..the brain tends to skid, swerve and forget its trying to
keep the body alive.

It is amazing how fast you can recall instructions in a crisis -
"if you have the time". I locked up the brakes one time and went into
a skid, and "heard" Bill Cosby saying "I recalled from Driver's ed
'turn in the direction the skid'" then my dad saying "you can't steer
when the brakes are locked". So I cam off the brakes, and missed the
station wagon.
A comparison can be made to any other sport. Basketball is a good
example. Ever wonder why the "champ" tends to "clutch" when he has to
make the free throw with seconds left and the game on the line?
Because he's no longer shooting baskets, he's "making a shot" - the
part of his brain which had to work through all the details before it
could become "muscle memory" is not back in control - he's thinking
about what it is he is trying to do.
Same with your defense shooting: you want your brain, arm and
hand to be repeating all the moves you made in practice, while your
mind is gibbering "shoot him now! shoot him now!" (add your own Daffy
Duck vocal effects) or "Oh look 'sparkles'!" Or "did I remember to
take out the trash at home?" What ever your mind is blathering, your
brain is not listening to, just going through the check list "One,
grasp the pistol. Two extract it from holster. Three, bring other
hand up to meet, etc ... all the way through "check for other threats"
and "start holstering subroutine."
And as my instructor said while I fumbled through a weapon change
"Don't worry, take your time. You have the rest of your life to do
this." Thanks, I think.

--
pyotr filipivich
The question was asked: "Is Hindsight overrated?"
In retrospect, it appears to be.