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OT- .410 pistol
Watching Alaska State Troopers yesterday and saw
a .410 shotgun revolver. I didn't know such a thing existed. So this raises an interesting point. When does a pistol firing shotgun shells become a sawed-off shotgun? Or when does a sawed- off shotgun become a legal pistol? |
OT- .410 pistol
Jim Stewart wrote:
Watching Alaska State Troopers yesterday and saw a .410 shotgun revolver. I didn't know such a thing existed. So this raises an interesting point. When does a pistol firing shotgun shells become a sawed-off shotgun? Or when does a sawed- off shotgun become a legal pistol? If it started life as a pistol , it's legal . If it originally was a "long gun" it cannot be converted to a pistol . If you add a shoulder stock , it becomes a "long gun" and cannot be converted back . It will be illegal unless you also lengthen the barrel . We did a lot of research on this , my son accepted an AR type 5.56mm pistol in lieu of rent money (he's legal ...) .. He's going to leave it in the original configuration to avoid any chance of legal hassles . -- Snag Learning keeps you young ! |
OT- .410 pistol
On 2/13/2012 10:34 AM, Jim Stewart wrote:
Watching Alaska State Troopers yesterday and saw a .410 shotgun revolver. I didn't know such a thing existed. So this raises an interesting point. When does a pistol firing shotgun shells become a sawed-off shotgun? Or when does a sawed- off shotgun become a legal pistol? Not that Wikipedia is always authoritative, but the entry for .410 gauge says the following: The fact that the .410 bore shell fits in a .45 Colt chamber has resulted in some unusual applications. While shotguns are often limited in minimum length, a firearm chambered in .45 Colt, such as the Contender pistol, is not defined as a shotgun even though it can chamber shotgun shells since the barrel is rifled, not smooth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.410_bore#Handguns |
OT- .410 pistol
Jim Stewart wrote:
Watching Alaska State Troopers yesterday and saw a .410 shotgun revolver. I didn't know such a thing existed. So this raises an interesting point. When does a pistol firing shotgun shells become a sawed-off shotgun? Or when does a sawed- off shotgun become a legal pistol? Dunno. http://www.taurususa.com/gun-selecto...s=41&toggle=tr --Winston |
OT- .410 pistol
"Winston" wrote in message ... Jim Stewart wrote: Watching Alaska State Troopers yesterday and saw a .410 shotgun revolver. I didn't know such a thing existed. So this raises an interesting point. When does a pistol firing shotgun shells become a sawed-off shotgun? Or when does a sawed- off shotgun become a legal pistol? Dunno. http://www.taurususa.com/gun-selecto...s=41&toggle=tr --Winston I think they are officially chambered for .45 Colt and the .410 that also fits is feeble enough to just ignore. The next step up is in legal limbo: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...auge-revolver/ |
OT- .410 pistol
Jim Stewart fired this volley in news:jhbl2n$sc6$1
@dont-email.me: So this raises an interesting point. When does a pistol firing shotgun shells become a sawed-off shotgun? Or when does a sawed- off shotgun become a legal pistol? I have one: A Taurus Judge. It has a concession to being a handgun... it has a rifled barrel. It has a concession to firing shotshells... the barrel is only very lightly rifled to avoid "spinning out" the shot from the pattern. It is legal in most states, and federally, because it IS a handgun designed to shoot .45 long Colt. It just "happens" to handle 2-3/4" .410 shells, as well. G LLoyd |
OT- .410 pistol
Jim Wilkins wrote:
(...) The next step up is in legal limbo: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...auge-revolver/ Inga: He vould have an enormous revolver. Dr. Frederick Fronkensteen: That goes without saying. Inga: Voof. Igor: He's going to be very popular. --Winston |
OT- .410 pistol
On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:34:03 -0800, Jim Stewart
wrote: Watching Alaska State Troopers yesterday and saw a .410 shotgun revolver. I didn't know such a thing existed. Yeah, pretty cool, huh? That's the Taurus Judge. Would you look at the length of that cylinder? Sumbitch is a heavy bastid, too. And I wouldn't want to spend more than 1 minute at the range with one. It'd be a great snake gun. Hear the rattle, take it out NOW! I'm sure they'd work well in home defense situations, too. So this raises an interesting point. When does a pistol firing shotgun shells become a sawed-off shotgun? Or when does a sawed- off shotgun become a legal pistol? Um, er, maybe 12ga? That's too big for most wrists to handle, even on Big Bubba. I'll bet that if one is used to murder a bank guard during a holdup, the ATF will immediately reclassify it as a sawed-off, an illegal weapon, and ban it. -- To use fear as the friend it is, we must retrain and reprogram ourselves... We must persistently and convincingly tell ourselves that the fear is here--with its gift of energy and heightened awareness--so we can do our best and learn the most in the new situation. Peter McWilliams, Life 101 |
OT- .410 pistol
On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 13:06:02 -0600, "Snag" wrote:
Jim Stewart wrote: Watching Alaska State Troopers yesterday and saw a .410 shotgun revolver. I didn't know such a thing existed. So this raises an interesting point. When does a pistol firing shotgun shells become a sawed-off shotgun? Or when does a sawed- off shotgun become a legal pistol? If it started life as a pistol , it's legal . If it originally was a "long gun" it cannot be converted to a pistol . If you add a shoulder stock , it becomes a "long gun" and cannot be converted back . It will be illegal unless you also lengthen the barrel . We did a lot of research on this , my son accepted an AR type 5.56mm pistol in lieu of rent money (he's legal ...) . He's going to leave it in the original configuration to avoid any chance of legal hassles . In a gun shop in New Brunswick I saw a long barreled revolver (.22 cal IIRC) with a folding stock, very nice little piece. |
OT- .410 pistol
On Feb 13, 11:34*am, Jim Stewart wrote:
Watching Alaska State Troopers yesterday and saw a .410 shotgun revolver. *I didn't know such a thing existed. *So this raises an interesting point. *When does a pistol firing shotgun shells become a sawed-off shotgun? *Or when does a sawed- off shotgun become a legal pistol? This gets by the NFA regs on short-barreled shotguns and Any Other Weapons because it's rifled and fires .45 Colt, so it's considered a regular revolver with very long chambers. If it was a smoothbore, it would have to be properly registered as a NFA weapon and have a tax stamp issued to be legal. Legal length for a shotgun barrel is 18", overall length has to be =26". Rossi/Taurus started this crap with The Judge, S&W has The Governor, there are "self-defense" .410 shells now being made for both. I really don't see the utility, myself, but they sell like hotcakes so somebody does. I've done enough testing 30 years back with shot handloads in a .45 revolver to determine that they don't really have any utility for anything I'm likely to do. The donut effect is still there and a one-piece .45 Colt slug is still likely to be a lot more decisive than a shower of shot. Kind of expensive fun for just plinking, too, .410s aren't cheap. Even .410 components aren't cheap. It's a novelty item. Keeps the wheels of industry rolling though. There are no legal 20 gauge or 12 gauge pistol rounds, so .410 is going to be it for this sort of gun. Half-inch bore size is the legal threshold for being considered a Destructive Device. Such things can still be made, by those with the proper legal blessing, though. Stan |
OT- .410 pistol
"Jim Stewart" wrote in message ...
Watching Alaska State Troopers yesterday and saw a .410 shotgun revolver. I didn't know such a thing existed. So this raises an interesting point. When does a pistol firing shotgun shells become a sawed-off shotgun? Or when does a sawed- off shotgun become a legal pistol? In the 60's I remember firing a .410 pistol. Belonged to a cousin or uncle. It was a break-action single-shot, smooth-barreled. The barrel was about as long as what they call a "Buntline special". I was just a teen-ager at the time, with no special knowledge about firearms except a desire to be able to hunt with the uncles and cousins, so I don't have any recollection about brand or model. I do remember that no one made any big deal about it, with respect to legality. We were just walking around the farm, my younger brother and I and a a same-aged cousin, and I lifted it up and took a shot at a crow that was flying over cross-wise to our path. Brought him down. Surprised the hell out of me. Tom |
OT- .410 pistol
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OT- .410 pistol
On Tue, 14 Feb 2012 11:34:32 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: Stanley Schaefer fired this volley in news:decf816d- : I've done enough testing 30 years back with shot handloads in a .45 revolver to determine that they don't really have any utility for anything I'm likely to do. The donut effect is still there and a one-piece .45 Colt slug is still likely to be a lot more decisive than a shower of shot. The "donut effect" you described has been more or less minimized in the Judge. They only very lightly rifle the barrel for the purpose of keeping it a unlicensed handgun, and it does quite well with the pattern. I've shot skeet with it (close.. 10yd). Lloyd The only advantage I can see..is the multi ball loads that are coming out now. Hitting someone with 3-5 slugs with a single pull of the trigger is really gonna smart on the receiving end, but...shrug..Ill just stay with the 1911. I want to see daylight though the holes Ive made in the attacker. Gunner -- One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that, in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid. Gunner Asch |
OT- .410 pistol
Gunner Asch fired this volley in
: I want to see daylight though the holes Ive made in the attacker. See, I made a decision, based on my RVN experiences. I shot a few guys. They died. If someone is attacking my family for harm or has determined they're going to kill me for a buck, I'll empty the wheel into their chest. But if someone is just trying to heist my wallet, I'll at least give them the chance to survive the experience. To that end, the _FIRST_ round in my Judge (my daily carry) is a #6 shot round. I figure that will really "distract" a perp if he gets it full in the face. (it's also easier not to miss under pressure -- wide spray, that gun, wide spray) If not, the rest are "flying ashtray" Spears defense rounds. It's just me, but I won't kill someone for $100.00. I will if they mess with my peeps or threaten my life, though. LLoyd |
OT- .410 pistol
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message But if someone is just trying to heist my wallet, I'll at least give them the chance to survive the experience. LLoyd I was sorry I made the kid mess himself and actually gave him a little money. |
OT- .410 pistol
On Feb 14, 4:35*pm, "Jim Wilkins" wrote:
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message But if someone is just trying to heist my wallet, I'll at least give them the chance to survive the experience. LLoyd I was sorry I made the kid mess himself and actually gave him a little money. Here is a link to the Box of Truth report on the Talus Judge. http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm Summery: Good for snakes and not much else. |
OT- .410 pistol
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OT- .410 pistol
Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
It's just me, but I won't kill someone for $100.00. I will if they mess with my peeps or threaten my life, though. You're not killing them for $100, you're killing them because they pose an immediate and significant threat to your life. Jon |
OT- .410 pistol
"Jon Danniken" fired this volley
in : You're not killing them for $100, you're killing them because they pose an immediate and significant threat to your life. YMMV. I was trained to, and still do, evaluate the threat. I'm not a superman, and will rely on the gun before bravado. But there's an obvious difference (to me) between a 'strongarm mugger' and a real threat to my life. I train myself twice weekly, both with mental exercises and live fire. Practice makes for deliberate actions. You can't think, in those situations. You have to rely on (mental) "muscle memory". I have the weapon at the ready. I will shoot with the birdshot first, unless the threat level demands more. (no tracing on the ballistics of a shot round, anyway). Well, actually, I'll shoot with the birdshot first no matter what, because it's in the first chamber, but I can "double- tap" right along with the best. If I fire the shot round only, I can walk away, and leave him disabled or crying... IF the circumstances permit. If not, then, "sorry". Too many people who carry do so without any mental or physical discipline. It takes work. Regular work. LLoyd |
OT- .410 pistol
And, how can you be sure the perp will stop with just some money? Some have
a sick side, too. Well, not that normal healthy people commit armed robberies, though. Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Jon Danniken" wrote in message ... Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote: It's just me, but I won't kill someone for $100.00. I will if they mess with my peeps or threaten my life, though. You're not killing them for $100, you're killing them because they pose an immediate and significant threat to your life. Jon |
OT- .410 pistol
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote I don't own a "Talus Judge". Mine is a Taurus Judge. LLoyd I thought Talus was a cheap knockoff of an expensive piece of junk. Steve |
OT- .410 pistol
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote Too many people who carry do so without any mental or physical discipline. It takes work. Regular work. LLoyd Sorry. Too busy with real work and real life to spend that much time on imaginary scenarios. I guess some people are just lucky. Steve |
OT- .410 pistol
On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 12:19:12 -0800, "Jon Danniken"
wrote: Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote: It's just me, but I won't kill someone for $100.00. I will if they mess with my peeps or threaten my life, though. You're not killing them for $100, you're killing them because they pose an immediate and significant threat to your life. Jon Indeed. Ive seen guys killed for $13 in their pockets -- One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that, in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid. Gunner Asch |
OT- .410 pistol
On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 14:52:08 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: "Jon Danniken" fired this volley in : You're not killing them for $100, you're killing them because they pose an immediate and significant threat to your life. YMMV. I was trained to, and still do, evaluate the threat. I'm not a superman, and will rely on the gun before bravado. But there's an obvious difference (to me) between a 'strongarm mugger' and a real threat to my life. I train myself twice weekly, both with mental exercises and live fire. Practice makes for deliberate actions. You can't think, in those situations. You have to rely on (mental) "muscle memory". I have the weapon at the ready. I will shoot with the birdshot first, unless the threat level demands more. (no tracing on the ballistics of a shot round, anyway). Well, actually, I'll shoot with the birdshot first no matter what, because it's in the first chamber, but I can "double- tap" right along with the best. If I fire the shot round only, I can walk away, and leave him disabled or crying... IF the circumstances permit. If not, then, "sorry". Too many people who carry do so without any mental or physical discipline. It takes work. Regular work. LLoyd That is true most indeedy. Gunner -- One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that, in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid. Gunner Asch |
OT- .410 pistol
On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 19:27:19 -0800, "Steve B" wrote:
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote Too many people who carry do so without any mental or physical discipline. It takes work. Regular work. LLoyd Sorry. Too busy with real work and real life to spend that much time on imaginary scenarios. I guess some people are just lucky. Steve Its not imaginary scenarios..its muscle memory that you are training. Without it..the brain tends to skid, swerve and forget its trying to keep the body alive. Gunner -- One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that, in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid. Gunner Asch |
OT- .410 pistol
On Feb 15, 2:52*pm, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote: "Jon Danniken" fired this volley : You're not killing them for $100, you're killing them because they pose an immediate and significant threat to your life. YMMV. I was trained to, and still do, evaluate the threat. *I'm not a superman, and will rely on the gun before bravado. *But there's an obvious difference (to me) between a 'strongarm mugger' and a real threat to my life. *I train myself twice weekly, both with mental exercises and live fire. *Practice makes for deliberate actions. *You can't think, in those situations. *You have to rely on (mental) "muscle memory". I have the weapon at the ready. *I will shoot with the birdshot first, unless the threat level demands more. (no tracing on the ballistics of a shot round, anyway). *Well, actually, I'll shoot with the birdshot first no matter what, because it's in the first chamber, but I can "double- tap" right along with the best. *If I fire the shot round only, I can walk away, and leave him disabled or crying... IF the circumstances permit. *If not, then, "sorry". Too many people who carry do so without any mental or physical discipline. *It takes work. *Regular work. LLoyd You sound like someone who will be sued for everything he has...including his precious toy guns. TMT |
OT- .410 pistol
On Feb 16, 9:27*pm, "Steve B" wrote:
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote Too many people who carry do so without any mental or physical discipline. *It takes work. *Regular work. LLoyd Sorry. *Too busy with real work and real life to spend that much time on imaginary scenarios. *I guess some people are just lucky. Steve Or paranoid. I bet his neighbors have 911 on speed dial because of him. TMT |
OT- .410 pistol
On Feb 19, 4:17*am, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 12:19:12 -0800, "Jon Danniken" wrote: Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote: It's just me, but I won't kill someone for $100.00. *I will if they mess with my peeps or threaten my life, though. You're not killing them for $100, you're killing them because they pose an immediate and significant threat to your life. Jon Indeed. Ive seen guys killed for $13 in their pockets -- One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that, in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Gunner Asch Is that $12 more than you have in your pockets? TMT |
OT- .410 pistol
On Feb 19, 4:19*am, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 19:27:19 -0800, "Steve B" wrote: "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote Too many people who carry do so without any mental or physical discipline. *It takes work. *Regular work. LLoyd Sorry. *Too busy with real work and real life to spend that much time on imaginary scenarios. *I guess some people are just lucky. Steve Its not imaginary scenarios..its muscle memory that you are training. Without it..the brain tends to skid, swerve and forget its trying to keep *the body alive. Gunner -- One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that, in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Gunner Asch Speaking from experience? TMT |
OT- .410 pistol
Too_Many_Tools fired this volley in
: Or paranoid. I bet his neighbors have 911 on speed dial because of him. You're a weak-minded man, TMT. Everyone in my neighborhood is armed. It's "the country thing". Nobody thinks twice about hearing target practice. You should practice. It might correct some of your trepidations about dealing with humans. Lloyd |
OT- .410 pistol
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote: You're a weak-minded man, TMT. Everyone in my neighborhood is armed. It's "the country thing". Nobody thinks twice about hearing target practice. You should practice. It might correct some of your trepidations about dealing with humans. He'd shoot his eye out! :) -- You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense. |
OT- .410 pistol
Gunner Asch on Sun, 19 Feb 2012 02:19:53 -0800
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following: On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 19:27:19 -0800, "Steve B" wrote: "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote Too many people who carry do so without any mental or physical discipline. It takes work. Regular work. LLoyd Sorry. Too busy with real work and real life to spend that much time on imaginary scenarios. I guess some people are just lucky. Steve Its not imaginary scenarios..its muscle memory that you are training. Without it..the brain tends to skid, swerve and forget its trying to keep the body alive. It is amazing how fast you can recall instructions in a crisis - "if you have the time". I locked up the brakes one time and went into a skid, and "heard" Bill Cosby saying "I recalled from Driver's ed 'turn in the direction the skid'" then my dad saying "you can't steer when the brakes are locked". So I cam off the brakes, and missed the station wagon. A comparison can be made to any other sport. Basketball is a good example. Ever wonder why the "champ" tends to "clutch" when he has to make the free throw with seconds left and the game on the line? Because he's no longer shooting baskets, he's "making a shot" - the part of his brain which had to work through all the details before it could become "muscle memory" is not back in control - he's thinking about what it is he is trying to do. Same with your defense shooting: you want your brain, arm and hand to be repeating all the moves you made in practice, while your mind is gibbering "shoot him now! shoot him now!" (add your own Daffy Duck vocal effects) or "Oh look 'sparkles'!" Or "did I remember to take out the trash at home?" What ever your mind is blathering, your brain is not listening to, just going through the check list "One, grasp the pistol. Two extract it from holster. Three, bring other hand up to meet, etc ... all the way through "check for other threats" and "start holstering subroutine." And as my instructor said while I fumbled through a weapon change "Don't worry, take your time. You have the rest of your life to do this." Thanks, I think. -- pyotr filipivich The question was asked: "Is Hindsight overrated?" In retrospect, it appears to be. |
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