Watching Alaska State Troopers yesterday and saw
a .410 shotgun revolver. I didn't know such a
thing existed. So this raises an interesting
point. When does a pistol firing shotgun shells
become a sawed-off shotgun? Or when does a sawed-
off shotgun become a legal pistol?

Jim Stewart wrote:
Watching Alaska State Troopers yesterday and saw
a .410 shotgun revolver. I didn't know such a
thing existed. So this raises an interesting
point. When does a pistol firing shotgun shells
become a sawed-off shotgun? Or when does a sawed-
off shotgun become a legal pistol?

If it started life as a pistol , it's legal . If it originally was a "long
gun" it cannot be converted to a pistol . If you add a shoulder stock , it
becomes a "long gun" and cannot be converted back . It will be illegal
unless you also lengthen the barrel . We did a lot of research on this , my
son accepted an AR type 5.56mm pistol in lieu of rent money (he's legal ...)
.. He's going to leave it in the original configuration to avoid any chance
of legal hassles .
--
Snag
Learning keeps
you young !

On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 13:06:02 -0600, "Snag" wrote:

Jim Stewart wrote:
Watching Alaska State Troopers yesterday and saw
a .410 shotgun revolver. I didn't know such a
thing existed. So this raises an interesting
point. When does a pistol firing shotgun shells
become a sawed-off shotgun? Or when does a sawed-
off shotgun become a legal pistol?

If it started life as a pistol , it's legal . If it originally was a "long
gun" it cannot be converted to a pistol . If you add a shoulder stock , it
becomes a "long gun" and cannot be converted back . It will be illegal
unless you also lengthen the barrel . We did a lot of research on this , my
son accepted an AR type 5.56mm pistol in lieu of rent money (he's legal ...)
. He's going to leave it in the original configuration to avoid any chance
of legal hassles .
In a gun shop in New Brunswick I saw a long barreled revolver (.22 cal
IIRC) with a folding stock, very nice little piece.

On 2/13/2012 10:34 AM, Jim Stewart wrote:
Watching Alaska State Troopers yesterday and saw
a .410 shotgun revolver. I didn't know such a
thing existed. So this raises an interesting
point. When does a pistol firing shotgun shells
become a sawed-off shotgun? Or when does a sawed-
off shotgun become a legal pistol?

Not that Wikipedia is always authoritative, but the entry for .410 gauge
says the following:

The fact that the .410 bore shell fits in a .45 Colt chamber has
resulted in some unusual applications. While shotguns are often
limited in minimum length, a firearm chambered in .45 Colt, such
as the Contender pistol, is not defined as a shotgun even though
it can chamber shotgun shells since the barrel is rifled, not smooth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.410_bore#Handguns

Jim Stewart wrote:
Watching Alaska State Troopers yesterday and saw
a .410 shotgun revolver. I didn't know such a
thing existed. So this raises an interesting
point. When does a pistol firing shotgun shells
become a sawed-off shotgun? Or when does a sawed-
off shotgun become a legal pistol?

Dunno.

http://www.taurususa.com/gun-selecto...s=41&toggle=tr

--Winston

"Winston" wrote in message
...
Jim Stewart wrote:
Watching Alaska State Troopers yesterday and saw
a .410 shotgun revolver. I didn't know such a
thing existed. So this raises an interesting
point. When does a pistol firing shotgun shells
become a sawed-off shotgun? Or when does a sawed-
off shotgun become a legal pistol?

Dunno.

http://www.taurususa.com/gun-selecto...s=41&toggle=tr

--Winston

I think they are officially chambered for .45 Colt and the .410 that also
fits is feeble enough to just ignore. The next step up is in legal limbo:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...auge-revolver/

Jim Wilkins wrote:

(...)

The next step up is in legal limbo:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...auge-revolver/

Inga: He vould have an enormous revolver.
Dr. Frederick Fronkensteen: That goes without saying.
Inga: Voof.
Igor: He's going to be very popular.

--Winston

Jim Stewart fired this volley in news:jhbl2n$sc6$1
@dont-email.me:

So this raises an interesting
point. When does a pistol firing shotgun shells
become a sawed-off shotgun? Or when does a sawed-
off shotgun become a legal pistol?


I have one: A Taurus Judge.

It has a concession to being a handgun... it has a rifled barrel.
It has a concession to firing shotshells... the barrel is only very
lightly rifled to avoid "spinning out" the shot from the pattern.

It is legal in most states, and federally, because it IS a handgun
designed to shoot .45 long Colt. It just "happens" to handle 2-3/4" .410
shells, as well. G

LLoyd

On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:34:03 -0800, Jim Stewart
wrote:

Watching Alaska State Troopers yesterday and saw
a .410 shotgun revolver. I didn't know such a
thing existed.

Yeah, pretty cool, huh? That's the Taurus Judge. Would you look at
the length of that cylinder? Sumbitch is a heavy bastid, too. And I
wouldn't want to spend more than 1 minute at the range with one.
It'd be a great snake gun. Hear the rattle, take it out NOW! I'm sure
they'd work well in home defense situations, too.


So this raises an interesting
point. When does a pistol firing shotgun shells
become a sawed-off shotgun? Or when does a sawed-
off shotgun become a legal pistol?

Um, er, maybe 12ga? That's too big for most wrists to handle, even on
Big Bubba. I'll bet that if one is used to murder a bank guard during
a holdup, the ATF will immediately reclassify it as a sawed-off, an
illegal weapon, and ban it.

--
To use fear as the friend it is, we must retrain and reprogram ourselves...
We must persistently and convincingly tell ourselves that the fear is
here--with its gift of energy and heightened awareness--so we can do our
best and learn the most in the new situation.
Peter McWilliams, Life 101

On Feb 13, 11:34*am, Jim Stewart wrote:
Watching Alaska State Troopers yesterday and saw
a .410 shotgun revolver. *I didn't know such a
thing existed. *So this raises an interesting
point. *When does a pistol firing shotgun shells
become a sawed-off shotgun? *Or when does a sawed-
off shotgun become a legal pistol?

This gets by the NFA regs on short-barreled shotguns and Any Other
Weapons because it's rifled and fires .45 Colt, so it's considered a
regular revolver with very long chambers. If it was a smoothbore, it
would have to be properly registered as a NFA weapon and have a tax
stamp issued to be legal. Legal length for a shotgun barrel is 18",
overall length has to be =26". Rossi/Taurus started this crap with
The Judge, S&W has The Governor, there are "self-defense" .410 shells
now being made for both. I really don't see the utility, myself, but
they sell like hotcakes so somebody does. I've done enough testing 30
years back with shot handloads in a .45 revolver to determine that
they don't really have any utility for anything I'm likely to do. The
donut effect is still there and a one-piece .45 Colt slug is still
likely to be a lot more decisive than a shower of shot. Kind of
expensive fun for just plinking, too, .410s aren't cheap. Even .410
components aren't cheap. It's a novelty item. Keeps the wheels of
industry rolling though.

There are no legal 20 gauge or 12 gauge pistol rounds, so .410 is
going to be it for this sort of gun. Half-inch bore size is the legal
threshold for being considered a Destructive Device. Such things can
still be made, by those with the proper legal blessing, though.

Stan

Stanley Schaefer fired this volley in news:decf816d-
:

I've done enough testing 30
years back with shot handloads in a .45 revolver to determine that
they don't really have any utility for anything I'm likely to do. The
donut effect is still there and a one-piece .45 Colt slug is still
likely to be a lot more decisive than a shower of shot.

The "donut effect" you described has been more or less minimized in the
Judge. They only very lightly rifle the barrel for the purpose of
keeping it a unlicensed handgun, and it does quite well with the pattern.

I've shot skeet with it (close.. 10yd).

Lloyd

On Tue, 14 Feb 2012 11:34:32 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Stanley Schaefer fired this volley in news:decf816d-
:

I've done enough testing 30
years back with shot handloads in a .45 revolver to determine that
they don't really have any utility for anything I'm likely to do. The
donut effect is still there and a one-piece .45 Colt slug is still
likely to be a lot more decisive than a shower of shot.

The "donut effect" you described has been more or less minimized in the
Judge. They only very lightly rifle the barrel for the purpose of
keeping it a unlicensed handgun, and it does quite well with the pattern.

I've shot skeet with it (close.. 10yd).

Lloyd

The only advantage I can see..is the multi ball loads that are coming
out now. Hitting someone with 3-5 slugs with a single pull of the
trigger is really gonna smart on the receiving end, but...shrug..Ill
just stay with the 1911. I want to see daylight though the holes Ive
made in the attacker.

Gunner

--

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

I want to see daylight though the holes Ive
made in the attacker.


See, I made a decision, based on my RVN experiences. I shot a few guys.
They died.

If someone is attacking my family for harm or has determined they're
going to kill me for a buck, I'll empty the wheel into their chest. But
if someone is just trying to heist my wallet, I'll at least give them the
chance to survive the experience.

To that end, the _FIRST_ round in my Judge (my daily carry) is a #6 shot
round. I figure that will really "distract" a perp if he gets it full in
the face. (it's also easier not to miss under pressure -- wide spray,
that gun, wide spray) If not, the rest are "flying ashtray" Spears
defense rounds.

It's just me, but I won't kill someone for $100.00. I will if they mess
with my peeps or threaten my life, though.

LLoyd

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
But
if someone is just trying to heist my wallet, I'll at least give them the
chance to survive the experience.

LLoyd

I was sorry I made the kid mess himself and actually gave him a little
money.

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

It's just me, but I won't kill someone for $100.00. I will if they
mess with my peeps or threaten my life, though.

You're not killing them for $100, you're killing them because they pose an
immediate and significant threat to your life.

Jon

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message ...

Watching Alaska State Troopers yesterday and saw
a .410 shotgun revolver. I didn't know such a
thing existed. So this raises an interesting
point. When does a pistol firing shotgun shells
become a sawed-off shotgun? Or when does a sawed-
off shotgun become a legal pistol?

In the 60's I remember firing a .410 pistol. Belonged to a cousin or uncle.
It was a break-action single-shot, smooth-barreled. The barrel was about as
long as what they call a "Buntline special". I was just a teen-ager at the
time, with no special knowledge about firearms except a desire to be able to
hunt with the uncles and cousins, so I don't have any recollection about
brand or model. I do remember that no one made any big deal about it, with
respect to legality. We were just walking around the farm, my younger
brother and I and a a same-aged cousin, and I lifted it up and took a shot
at a crow that was flying over cross-wise to our path. Brought him down.
Surprised the hell out of me.

Tom