I had a few occasions, when I had to hire some laborers or handymen
(read, people who do simple one time jobs).

My experience with them has been abysmal, in the sense that most of
them are very unreliable. They can show up 1.5 hours later, or not at
all. They do not even think that it is a big deal.

Is that my own isolated experience, or has anyone else seen the same?

i

--

"Ignoramus20811" wrote in message
...
I had a few occasions, when I had to hire some laborers or handymen
(read, people who do simple one time jobs).

My experience with them has been abysmal, in the sense that most of
them are very unreliable. They can show up 1.5 hours later, or not at
all. They do not even think that it is a big deal.

Is that my own isolated experience, or has anyone else seen the same?

i

Very common, thats why they are self unemployed. The worst one i had
showed up drunk.

Best Regards
Tom.
--
http://fija.org/

On Oct 10, 10:07*pm, Ignoramus20811 ignoramus20...@NOSPAM.
20811.invalid wrote:
I had a few occasions, when I had to hire some laborers or handymen
(read, people who do simple one time jobs).

My experience with them has been abysmal, in the sense that most of
them are very unreliable. They can show up 1.5 hours later, or not at
all. They do not even think that it is a big deal.

Is that my own isolated experience, or has anyone else seen the same?

i

Yes...happens all the time here.

What I have done is seek out those who can keep appointments and work
with them to teach them my expectations. It takes awhile but in time
you will have some people who will perform to your requirements.

And I pay well....and I feed the help well too.

And they remember that.

Which means they want to work for me again.

TMT

On 10/10/2011 8:07 PM, Ignoramus20811 wrote:
I had a few occasions, when I had to hire some laborers or handymen
(read, people who do simple one time jobs).

My experience with them has been abysmal, in the sense that most of
them are very unreliable. They can show up 1.5 hours later, or not at
all. They do not even think that it is a big deal.

Is that my own isolated experience, or has anyone else seen the same?

i

if you hire the illegal ones, they are much more reliable - they are
actually here to work. Of course hiring them is illegal in some states.

On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 22:07:08 -0500, Ignoramus20811
wrote:

I had a few occasions, when I had to hire some laborers or handymen
(read, people who do simple one time jobs).

My experience with them has been abysmal, in the sense that most of
them are very unreliable. They can show up 1.5 hours later, or not at
all. They do not even think that it is a big deal.

Is that my own isolated experience, or has anyone else seen the same?

It's that way everywhere, especially in the sub-$10/hr arena. My
neighbor has been through half a dozen guys in the past year, and she
only wants help for 3-4 hours per week in the summer. They either show
up late or on a different day than scheduled, and they never, ever
call to let her know there's a problem.

I, on the other hand, always show up on time or call if I can't, but I
get a bit more than that for my work. Some jobs take longer than I
estimate or planned for, tools break and have to be replaced
immediately, power goes out, clients change their minds, etc.

--
Never trouble another for what you can do for yourself.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"Ignoramus20811" wrote in message
...
I had a few occasions, when I had to hire some laborers or handymen
(read, people who do simple one time jobs).

My experience with them has been abysmal, in the sense that most of
them are very unreliable. They can show up 1.5 hours later, or not at
all. They do not even think that it is a big deal.

Is that my own isolated experience, or has anyone else seen the same?

i

That problem is rampant in the US, and it's not limited to handymen.

In the process of building our house, I called one guy twice, to ask for a
bid on drywall. He never returned the calls. My wife and I hung and
fiinished the drywall ourselves.

I have now waited two weeks for a simple quote on some glass. Got one from
a different outfit that wanted $2,000 (labor alone) to install two mirrors
and six sliding glass doors in a display cabinet. Took that guy over a
month to show up, and I had to make several calls and stop by his store to
get him here.

These are some of the reasons that I do almost everything myself. Those
that show up want to make a retirement on each job, or they simply don't
show up at all. To add insult to injury, their workmanship tends to be
shoddy---as if they have no pride in what they do, with making money their
sole objective.

It is no wonder illegals are here-----they work, they are reliable, and
they'll do jobs that Americans won't. We've made it easy for them, and
we'd be screwed without them.

Sad, really.

This country is badly broken.

Harold

On 2011-10-11, Bill wrote:
On 10/10/2011 8:07 PM, Ignoramus20811 wrote:
I had a few occasions, when I had to hire some laborers or handymen
(read, people who do simple one time jobs).

My experience with them has been abysmal, in the sense that most of
them are very unreliable. They can show up 1.5 hours later, or not at
all. They do not even think that it is a big deal.

Is that my own isolated experience, or has anyone else seen the same?

i

if you hire the illegal ones, they are much more reliable - they are
actually here to work. Of course hiring them is illegal in some states.

Any idea where can I find them? I have some jobs that are simple and
safe, such as moving stuff around and cleaning machines, and sweeping
the floor, scrubbing off caked dirt etc.

I would really like to get a couple of guys to do it. I tried getting
some handymen, and it was very frustrating due to their unreliability.

I am also slightly concerned that some of them may be looking for
targets to burglarize.

i

On 2011-10-11, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 22:07:08 -0500, Ignoramus20811
wrote:

I had a few occasions, when I had to hire some laborers or handymen
(read, people who do simple one time jobs).

My experience with them has been abysmal, in the sense that most of
them are very unreliable. They can show up 1.5 hours later, or not at
all. They do not even think that it is a big deal.

Is that my own isolated experience, or has anyone else seen the same?

It's that way everywhere, especially in the sub-$10/hr arena. My
neighbor has been through half a dozen guys in the past year, and she
only wants help for 3-4 hours per week in the summer. They either show
up late or on a different day than scheduled, and they never, ever
call to let her know there's a problem.

I, on the other hand, always show up on time or call if I can't, but I
get a bit more than that for my work. Some jobs take longer than I
estimate or planned for, tools break and have to be replaced
immediately, power goes out, clients change their minds, etc.


Larry, I am sure that you treat your clients fairly.

I mean, I would be OK if they just called and said that they are not
coming today.

i

On Tue, 11 Oct 2011 08:31:02 GMT, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Ignoramus20811" wrote in message
...
I had a few occasions, when I had to hire some laborers or handymen
(read, people who do simple one time jobs).

My experience with them has been abysmal, in the sense that most of
them are very unreliable. They can show up 1.5 hours later, or not at
all. They do not even think that it is a big deal.

Is that my own isolated experience, or has anyone else seen the same?

i

That problem is rampant in the US, and it's not limited to handymen.

In the process of building our house, I called one guy twice, to ask for a
bid on drywall. He never returned the calls. My wife and I hung and
fiinished the drywall ourselves.

I have now waited two weeks for a simple quote on some glass.

Yabbut, you live in West BF, too.

--
Never trouble another for what you can do for yourself.
-- Thomas Jefferson

Ignoramus19425 wrote in
:

On 2011-10-11, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 10 Oct 2011 22:07:08 -0500, Ignoramus20811
wrote:

I had a few occasions, when I had to hire some laborers or handymen
(read, people who do simple one time jobs).

My experience with them has been abysmal, in the sense that most of
them are very unreliable. They can show up 1.5 hours later, or not at
all. They do not even think that it is a big deal.

Is that my own isolated experience, or has anyone else seen the same?

It's that way everywhere, especially in the sub-$10/hr arena. My
neighbor has been through half a dozen guys in the past year, and she
only wants help for 3-4 hours per week in the summer. They either show
up late or on a different day than scheduled, and they never, ever
call to let her know there's a problem.

I, on the other hand, always show up on time or call if I can't, but I
get a bit more than that for my work. Some jobs take longer than I
estimate or planned for, tools break and have to be replaced
immediately, power goes out, clients change their minds, etc.


Larry, I am sure that you treat your clients fairly.

I mean, I would be OK if they just called and said that they are not
coming today.

In the Boston area, we are covered by "Checkbook" and Angie's List, both
of which are independent contractor reviewing operations. Not everyone
who is good in the area is listed, but if you find someone with rave
reviews, you can pretty much count on them. It takes a hugh amount of
the guesswork out of the process. I won't hire anyone for even a small
one time job without a personal referal from someone I trust, or a good
review on one of those two (preferably both). Fortunately, the Boston
market is big enough that you can usually find several outfits to get
bids from on major jobs.

We are about to have our bathroom re-done, and all the contractors we've
talked to have been very good. Some of them even have discounts for
members of Angie's List. That shows that they know they will get
reviewed, and they are confident enough in their work to want those
customers.

Doug White

On Tue, 11 Oct 2011 07:42:06 -0500, Ignoramus19425
wrote:

On 2011-10-11, Bill wrote:
On 10/10/2011 8:07 PM, Ignoramus20811 wrote:
I had a few occasions, when I had to hire some laborers or handymen
(read, people who do simple one time jobs).

My experience with them has been abysmal, in the sense that most of
them are very unreliable. They can show up 1.5 hours later, or not at
all. They do not even think that it is a big deal.

Is that my own isolated experience, or has anyone else seen the same?

i

if you hire the illegal ones, they are much more reliable - they are
actually here to work. Of course hiring them is illegal in some states.

Any idea where can I find them? I have some jobs that are simple and
safe, such as moving stuff around and cleaning machines, and sweeping
the floor, scrubbing off caked dirt etc.

I would really like to get a couple of guys to do it. I tried getting
some handymen, and it was very frustrating due to their unreliability.

I am also slightly concerned that some of them may be looking for
targets to burglarize.

That's a fairly valid concern when you hire anyone.

Go to the temp agency and get registered day laborers, Ig. Tell the
person you talk to that you're concerned about security and ask for
someone who has worked for them for awhile or someone they know
personally.

I've been happy with 2 of the 3 guys I've hired from temps. The other
guy felt wrong, and I wouldn't have let him work inside my home. Use
your gut when the guys show up. Intuition works.

--
Never trouble another for what you can do for yourself.
-- Thomas Jefferson

On 10/10/2011 11:07 PM, Ignoramus20811 wrote:
I had a few occasions, when I had to hire some laborers or handymen
(read, people who do simple one time jobs).

My experience with them has been abysmal, in the sense that most of
them are very unreliable. They can show up 1.5 hours later, or not at
all. They do not even think that it is a big deal.

Is that my own isolated experience, or has anyone else seen the same?

i

I think it is a universal theme, we have the same problem in Canada.

Maybe you could hire a neighbourhood high school kid? If you get a
good one, you can train them to do more important jobs too. Nice thing
is that you don't have to make a steady job for them, but you know who
you are getting each time you call on them. Probably have to try out a
few before you get a good one though........

Pete

--
Pete Snell
Department of Physics
Royal Military College
Kingston, Ontario,
Canada
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education.

Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

On Tue, 11 Oct 2011 07:42:06 -0500, Ignoramus19425
wrote:

On 2011-10-11, Bill wrote:
On 10/10/2011 8:07 PM, Ignoramus20811 wrote:
I had a few occasions, when I had to hire some laborers or handymen
(read, people who do simple one time jobs).

My experience with them has been abysmal, in the sense that most of
them are very unreliable. They can show up 1.5 hours later, or not at
all. They do not even think that it is a big deal.

Is that my own isolated experience, or has anyone else seen the same?

i

if you hire the illegal ones, they are much more reliable - they are
actually here to work. Of course hiring them is illegal in some states.

Any idea where can I find them? I have some jobs that are simple and
safe, such as moving stuff around and cleaning machines, and sweeping
the floor, scrubbing off caked dirt etc.

I would really like to get a couple of guys to do it. I tried getting
some handymen, and it was very frustrating due to their unreliability.

I am also slightly concerned that some of them may be looking for
targets to burglarize.

i

Try the entrance to the parking lot for Home Depot etc etc.

Gunner

"In the history of mankind, there have always been men and women who's goal
in life is to take down nations. We have just elected such a man to run our
country." - David Lloyyd (2008)

On Oct 11, 3:33*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 11 Oct 2011 07:42:06 -0500, Ignoramus19425





wrote:
On 2011-10-11, Bill wrote:
On 10/10/2011 8:07 PM, Ignoramus20811 wrote:
I had a few occasions, when I had to hire some laborers or handymen
(read, people who do simple one time jobs).

My experience with them has been abysmal, in the sense that most of
them are very unreliable. They can show up 1.5 hours later, or not at
all. They do not even think that it is a big deal.

Is that my own isolated experience, or has anyone else seen the same?

i

if you hire the illegal ones, they are much more reliable - they are
actually here to work. *Of course hiring them is illegal in some states.

Any idea where can I find them? I have some jobs that are simple and
safe, such as moving stuff around and cleaning machines, and sweeping
the floor, scrubbing off caked dirt etc.

I would really like to get a couple of guys to do it. I tried getting
some handymen, and it was very frustrating due to their unreliability.

I am also slightly concerned that some of them may be looking for
targets to burglarize.

i

Try the entrance to the parking lot for Home Depot etc etc.

Gunner

"In the history of mankind, there have always been men and women who's goal
in life is to take down nations. We have just elected such a man to run our
country." - David Lloyyd (2008)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Will you be standing there with the rest of the illegals looking for
work?

TMT

On Tue, 11 Oct 2011 08:31:02 GMT, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Ignoramus20811" wrote in message
...
I had a few occasions, when I had to hire some laborers or handymen
(read, people who do simple one time jobs).

My experience with them has been abysmal, in the sense that most of
them are very unreliable. They can show up 1.5 hours later, or not at
all. They do not even think that it is a big deal.

Is that my own isolated experience, or has anyone else seen the same?

i

That problem is rampant in the US, and it's not limited to handymen.

In the process of building our house, I called one guy twice, to ask for a
bid on drywall. He never returned the calls. My wife and I hung and
fiinished the drywall ourselves.

I have now waited two weeks for a simple quote on some glass. Got one from
a different outfit that wanted $2,000 (labor alone) to install two mirrors
and six sliding glass doors in a display cabinet. Took that guy over a
month to show up, and I had to make several calls and stop by his store to
get him here.

These are some of the reasons that I do almost everything myself. Those
that show up want to make a retirement on each job, or they simply don't
show up at all. To add insult to injury, their workmanship tends to be
shoddy---as if they have no pride in what they do, with making money their
sole objective.

It is no wonder illegals are here-----they work, they are reliable, and
they'll do jobs that Americans won't. We've made it easy for them, and
we'd be screwed without them.

Sad, really.

This country is badly broken.

Other countries, too.

What you describe is almost exactly my experience. I attributed it to
living on the Island but it seems from what you say that the problem
is universal.

I still find it hard to understand. The economy is supposed to be bad.
There is a huge number of jobless people. How do these "handymen" make
a living?

Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

On Wed, 12 Oct 2011 17:17:24 -0700, wrote:

On Tue, 11 Oct 2011 08:31:02 GMT, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Ignoramus20811" wrote in message
...
I had a few occasions, when I had to hire some laborers or handymen
(read, people who do simple one time jobs).

My experience with them has been abysmal, in the sense that most of
them are very unreliable. They can show up 1.5 hours later, or not at
all. They do not even think that it is a big deal.

Is that my own isolated experience, or has anyone else seen the same?

i

That problem is rampant in the US, and it's not limited to handymen.

In the process of building our house, I called one guy twice, to ask for a
bid on drywall. He never returned the calls. My wife and I hung and
fiinished the drywall ourselves.

I have now waited two weeks for a simple quote on some glass. Got one from
a different outfit that wanted $2,000 (labor alone) to install two mirrors
and six sliding glass doors in a display cabinet. Took that guy over a
month to show up, and I had to make several calls and stop by his store to
get him here.

These are some of the reasons that I do almost everything myself. Those
that show up want to make a retirement on each job, or they simply don't
show up at all. To add insult to injury, their workmanship tends to be
shoddy---as if they have no pride in what they do, with making money their
sole objective.

It is no wonder illegals are here-----they work, they are reliable, and
they'll do jobs that Americans won't. We've made it easy for them, and
we'd be screwed without them.

Sad, really.

This country is badly broken.

Other countries, too.

What you describe is almost exactly my experience. I attributed it to
living on the Island but it seems from what you say that the problem
is universal.

I still find it hard to understand. The economy is supposed to be bad.
There is a huge number of jobless people. How do these "handymen" make
a living?

Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC
Haven't you heard of government work AKA welfare?
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

On Wed, 12 Oct 2011 17:17:24 -0700, wrote:

On Tue, 11 Oct 2011 08:31:02 GMT, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Ignoramus20811" wrote in message
...
I had a few occasions, when I had to hire some laborers or handymen
(read, people who do simple one time jobs).

My experience with them has been abysmal, in the sense that most of
them are very unreliable. They can show up 1.5 hours later, or not at
all. They do not even think that it is a big deal.

Is that my own isolated experience, or has anyone else seen the same?

i

That problem is rampant in the US, and it's not limited to handymen.

In the process of building our house, I called one guy twice, to ask for a
bid on drywall. He never returned the calls. My wife and I hung and
fiinished the drywall ourselves.

I have now waited two weeks for a simple quote on some glass. Got one from
a different outfit that wanted $2,000 (labor alone) to install two mirrors
and six sliding glass doors in a display cabinet. Took that guy over a
month to show up, and I had to make several calls and stop by his store to
get him here.

These are some of the reasons that I do almost everything myself. Those
that show up want to make a retirement on each job, or they simply don't
show up at all. To add insult to injury, their workmanship tends to be
shoddy---as if they have no pride in what they do, with making money their
sole objective.

It is no wonder illegals are here-----they work, they are reliable, and
they'll do jobs that Americans won't. We've made it easy for them, and
we'd be screwed without them.

Sad, really.

This country is badly broken.

Other countries, too.

What you describe is almost exactly my experience. I attributed it to
living on the Island but it seems from what you say that the problem
is universal.

I still find it hard to understand. The economy is supposed to be bad.
There is a huge number of jobless people. How do these "handymen" make
a living?

They quote lower prices than those of us with contractor's licenses,
insurance, and bonds. And here's what they give you for your lower
price: http://goo.gl/34nSt Pic 23, they show up at your house. Pic
14, they fix your window after the earthquake. See pics 27 and 65 for
new remodeling.

g

--
The ultimate result of shielding men from folly
is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer

On Oct 12, 7:17*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Oct 2011 08:31:02 GMT, "Harold & Susan Vordos"





wrote:

"Ignoramus20811" wrote in message
...
I had a few occasions, when I had to hire some laborers or handymen
(read, people who do simple one time jobs).

My experience with them has been abysmal, in the sense that most of
them are very unreliable. They can show up 1.5 hours later, or not at
all. They do not even think that it is a big deal.

Is that my own isolated experience, or has anyone else seen the same?

i

That problem is rampant in the US, and it's not limited to handymen.

In the process of building our house, I called one guy twice, to ask for a
bid on drywall. * He never returned the calls. * My wife and I hung and
fiinished the drywall ourselves.

I have now waited two weeks for a simple quote on some glass. * Got one from
a different outfit that wanted $2,000 (labor alone) to install two mirrors
and six sliding glass doors in a display cabinet. * *Took that guy over a
month to show up, and I had to make several calls and stop by his store to
get him here.

These are some of the reasons that I do almost everything myself. * *Those
that show up want to make a retirement on each job, or they simply don't
show up at all. *To add insult to injury, their workmanship tends to be
shoddy---as if they have no pride in what they do, with making money their
sole objective.

It is no wonder illegals are here-----they work, they are reliable, and
they'll do jobs that Americans won't. * *We've made it easy for them, and
we'd be screwed without them.

Sad, really.

This country is badly broken.

Other countries, too.

What you describe is almost exactly my experience. I attributed it to
living on the Island but it seems from what you say that the problem
is universal.

I still find it hard to understand. The economy is supposed to be bad.
There is a huge number of jobless people. How do these "handymen" make
a living?

Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Cash under the counter..and not paying taxes.

Ever wonder how Gummer stays in smokes and Dew....and his exwife in
Radio Shack batteries?

TMT

I'm the wrong guy to ask. I was supervisor on an offshore oil drilling rig
for a few years. Laborers are a group that you have to establish absolute
dominance over from the start, or you will have problems from there out. If
you do establish dominance, you can get a remarkable degree of production
out of them.

Handymen are another matter. Just a laborer with slightly more skills.
Takes a dominant hand from the start, and no assuming, hyphenation not
needed. Micromanagement of handymen and laborers is about the only group it
is productive for.

Steve

On 2011-10-13, Steve B wrote:
I'm the wrong guy to ask. I was supervisor on an offshore oil drilling rig
for a few years. Laborers are a group that you have to establish absolute
dominance over from the start, or you will have problems from there out. If
you do establish dominance, you can get a remarkable degree of production
out of them.

Handymen are another matter. Just a laborer with slightly more skills.
Takes a dominant hand from the start, and no assuming, hyphenation not
needed. Micromanagement of handymen and laborers is about the only group it
is productive for.


This is pretty wise, although it is hard to establish domonance over
some who does not show up.

i

On Oct 12, 10:29*pm, "Steve B" wrote:
I'm the wrong guy to ask. *I was supervisor on an offshore oil drilling rig
for a few years. *Laborers are a group that you have to establish absolute
dominance over from the start, or you will have problems from there out. *If
you do establish dominance, you can get a remarkable degree of production
out of them.

Handymen are another matter. *Just a laborer with slightly more skills.
Takes a dominant hand from the start, and no assuming, hyphenation not
needed. *Micromanagement of handymen and laborers is about the only group it
is productive for.

Steve

I have found micromanaging to never be the solution.

Setting expectations is.

I make it clear from the start...no alcohol, no drugs, on time and if
you make a commitment you damn well better keep it.

Any deviation from that and you are history.

Many times what appears to be inept work is the result of management
not doing their job.

When you hire anyone and give them no guidance of what you expect, one
should not be surprised to get less than what you expected in return.

In machining, one expects to work from a blueprint that has undergone
hours of thought, dimensions, tolerances, material selection,
etc...and you get what you expect.

In many other disciplines, the employee is expected to read the mind
of management and to pull off a miracle.

TMT

On Oct 12, 11:14*pm, Ignoramus2083
wrote:
On 2011-10-13, Steve B wrote:

I'm the wrong guy to ask. *I was supervisor on an offshore oil drilling rig
for a few years. *Laborers are a group that you have to establish absolute
dominance over from the start, or you will have problems from there out.. *If
you do establish dominance, you can get a remarkable degree of production
out of them.

Handymen are another matter. *Just a laborer with slightly more skills.
Takes a dominant hand from the start, and no assuming, hyphenation not
needed. *Micromanagement of handymen and laborers is about the only group it
is productive for.

This is pretty wise, although it is hard to establish domonance over
some who does not show up.

i

True...have you considered paying more to get a better class of
employee?

A suggestion...when you stop at your next fast food place, ask the
people who help you if they would like to make some more money by
doing your jobs.

The fast food place has already screened their (your future) employees
for you.

TMT

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
snip--

have you considered paying more to get a better class of
employee?

Get serious! The amount of pay *workers* receive (I use that term loosely)
often bears nothing in common with their level of skills and abilities.
That's what's wrong with the US these days. Many expect a king's ransom
just for showing up. No pride in workmanship and pitifully low skill levels.
The sad thing is, it's been that way for so long now that they don't even
understand they don't have what it takes. Seems like being the worst at
skill and the best at grabbing the money and running is worn as a badge of
honor these days.

You want things done properly? Do them yourself.

Harold

On Oct 13, 9:52*pm, "Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message

...
snip--

have you considered paying more to get a better class of

employee?

Get serious! * The amount of pay *workers* receive (I use that term loosely)
often bears nothing in common with their level of skills and abilities.
That's what's wrong with the US these days. * Many expect *a king's ransom
just for showing up. No pride in workmanship and pitifully low skill levels.
The sad thing is, it's been that way for so long now that they don't even
understand they don't have what it takes. * Seems like being the worst at
skill and the best at grabbing the money and running is worn as a badge of
honor these days.

You want things done properly? *Do them yourself.

Harold

I am serious.

One has to pay to get quality.

I am always amused when I see people who consider others do not
deserve to be well paid but expect to be well paid themselves.

Harold...did you ever turn down a salary raise/higher wage or return
some of your compensation because you were overpaid?

TMT


So you consider that pay should not reflect one's ability?

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
I am serious.

One has to pay to get quality.

You make it sound like paying more assures quality. *It doesn't.*

I am always amused when I see people who consider others do not
deserve to be well paid but expect to be well paid themselves.

If you're aiming that comment at me, I'm highly offended. I made it a
policy, all my life, to earn my money. It is for that reason that I would
have nothing to do with unions, and I never did.

Harold...did you ever turn down a salary raise/higher wage or return
some of your compensation because you were overpaid?

I was employed by industry for a grand total of ten years, right to the day.
I worked as a journeyman machinist up until the day I started my commercial
machine shop (August, 1967). The best money I was paid was $3.50/hour. I
considered myself to be being paid a fair wage, for which I gave an honest
day's work. I also produced work that was NOT rejected by QC. I earned my
humble pay.

TMT


So you consider that pay should not reflect one's ability?

Quite the contrary-----I feel it SHOULD reflect one's ability---the trouble
is that rarely do you encounter anyone that has *ability*. What they have
is an *opinion* that they have ability. The bar has been lowered so
inferior workmanship and being a slacker is fashionable. We see it almost
daily. You appear to be a champion of paying just because a guy shows up.
I'm not. If they can't walk the walk, they're not worth paying.

I live in a state that is managed by the democrats. In their wisdom, they
assure that people with no skills can make what they'd like to call decent
money. As a result, morons that can't pour **** out of a boot with the
instructions written on the heel, will, effective January, be making
$9.03/hr. I think that's a little high for someone with no skills. Yeah,
I do! Two bucks for a coke? That's what you get when people are paid
unearned money. It has to come from somewhere, doesn't it?

I'm not the person you want to get involved with when it comes to values.
I have a record (one of which I'm very proud) whereby overpay was not
accepted. It's something you can't begin to understand without knowing me
as a person, and to have been familiar with my shop when I was actively
machining.

I have no tolerance for those that demand high pay, yet can be replaced in
their work by anyone off the street. That includes those that worked for
Detroit, where the most they had invested in their job was a gray lunchbox.

Our very own Gunner can recount details of what's wrong with your
philosophy---he worked for the automakers in Detroit, where workers were
paid a handsome income---and earned virtually none of it.

Money does not guarantee skill and quality any more than standing in a
garage makes you a car. Lose that notion.

Ever ask a guy if he was good at what he does? Ever have one tell you he
wasn't?

Me, neither, yet I've hired more than my share of *workers* (loosely used
term) that wanted their pay, but couldn't do the work, and to the man, each
thought of himself as being qualified.

Harold

On Oct 14, 12:32*am, "Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message

...
I am serious.

One has to pay to get quality.

You make it sound like paying more assures quality. **It doesn't.*

I am always amused when I see people who consider others do not

deserve to be well paid but expect to be well paid themselves.

If you're aiming that comment at me, I'm highly offended. * * I made it a
policy, all my life, to earn my money. *It is for that reason that I would
have nothing to do with unions, and I never did.

Harold...did you ever turn down a salary raise/higher wage or return

some of your compensation because you were overpaid?

I was employed by industry for a grand total of ten years, right to the day.
I worked as a journeyman machinist up until the day I started my commercial
machine shop (August, 1967). *The best money I was paid was $3.50/hour. * I
considered myself to be being paid a fair wage, for which I gave an honest
day's work. *I also produced work that was NOT rejected by QC. * I earned my
humble pay.

TMT

So you consider that pay should not reflect one's ability?

Quite the contrary-----I feel it SHOULD reflect one's ability---the trouble
is that rarely do you encounter anyone that has *ability*. * What they have
is an *opinion* that they have ability. *The bar has been lowered so
inferior workmanship and being a slacker is fashionable. * *We see it almost
daily. * You appear to be a champion of paying just because a guy shows up.
I'm not. *If they can't walk the walk, they're not worth paying.

I live in a state that is managed by the democrats. *In their wisdom, they
assure that people with no skills can make what they'd like to call decent
money. As a result, morons that can't pour **** out of a boot with the
instructions written on the heel, will, effective January, be making
$9.03/hr. * I think that's a little high for someone with no skills. *Yeah,
I do! * Two bucks for a coke? * That's what you get when people are paid
unearned money. *It has to come from somewhere, doesn't it?

I'm not the person you want to get involved with when it comes to values.
I have a record (one of which I'm very proud) whereby overpay was not
accepted. * It's something you can't begin to understand without knowing me
as a person, and to have been familiar with my shop when I was actively
machining.

I have no tolerance for those that demand high pay, yet can be replaced in
their work by anyone off the street. * That includes those that worked for
Detroit, where the most they had invested in their job was a gray lunchbox.

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
snip---
Harold...the point is how does one assess what quality what
compensation produces.

You don't, It has been my experience that those with a good work ethic and
pride in themselves don't work better or faster if they are given a raise.
They work at a steady and productive rate---because that's who and what they
are. You most likely haven't experienced anything like that in the same
way I have, as I suspect you're of the generation that doesn't understand
the value of these qualities. Not trying to be rude---just stating what I
have learned in my 72 years of life. Precious few young people, those that
came through the 60's, have respectable values. Sorry, but that's my
observation.

You say that paying more does not guarantee better quality.

I say that paying more can improve your chances to get better quality.

I'll use the same theory and assume that standing in the garage long enough
will make me a car.

Fair?

What prevents a slacker from demanding money beyond his worth? Pay him
more and he simply demands more yet. We've seen that with the corrupted
unions, where they have convinced the worker that they are entitled to
portions of the profits of the businesses for which they work. If that was
true, would they not be just as responsible for losses, and have to forfeit
pay when things were bad? What's the difference?

If it takes more money to get someone to do what they bargained to do for
you in the first place, it's a statement about them, not the wages you pay.
I maintain, and it would be a virtual impossibility for me to perceive it
any differently (thanks to personal experiences). I maintain the posture
that if you hire a person to work and they accept the terms of being hired,
then they drag their feet, they are a classic example of those I speak of.
If they don't like conditions, why in hell did they accept the offer?

Gummer has a LONG history of being caught lying...so I would suggest
not using him as a "standard of quality".

I'm not a Christian and I know better than to judge others. Shame on you.
Gunner is what he is, and he's a living, breathing human being. Let him be.

I chose the CEO example to show that more money is not a guarantee for
better quality.

I chose the hamburger flipper to show that less money is not a
guarantee for better quality either.


That be the case, why are we having this discussion? If you agree that
paying more does not guarantee quality, that's been my point right along.
What guarantees quality is hiring people with qualifications *that have
pride in their work*. They know and understand that the work they turn
out bears their name---and will produce quality as a matter of course. I
worked with several that shared that philosophy, many of whom went on to
found their own businesses, just as I did. They were all successful, save
for one, who had an attitude of entitlement. Nice guy, just no pride.


Now what if that CEO used to be a hamburger flipper...and was named
Ray Kroc.

I'm not the least concerned what a name may be, nor does the name Ray Kroc
mean anything to me. Sorry.

You mentioned that you had a machine shop.

On your theory that higher compensation does not mean quality, I would
assume that you paid all who worked there minimum wage regardless of
their title.

So how did that work for you?

You haven't been paying attention, have you?
Did you take note of my original comment that if you wanted things done
right, to do them yourself?

I spent the 16 years in my commercial shop working alone. Do not let that
taint your picture of my success. I had mainstream customers, well
recognized in the defense industry. I numbered amongst them Sperry/Univac
(same corporation in different time intervals), Litton Guidance and Control,
and in the pharmaceutical industry, Becton Dickinson, for whom I was sole
source for precision metering pumps for a computerized blood analyzing
machine. That's what happens when one places quality before making money.

Reason I worked alone?

Because I knew my work could be trusted. I knew that the work of others
could not be, nor would money motivate them to be responsible. Those
amongst my peers that had the needed *killer* instinct to do great work all
went on to found their own businesses, and there number was surprisingly
large.

My rejection record proved my point, and the few rejections I received
proved I was human and subject to error. I *never* knowingly shipped a
single item I knew to not be to specifications. Even if it meant running
at a loss for a prolonged period of time, which happened on more than one
occasion. In the end, it was still my name on the work, and it was more
important to me than making money. Truth is, without the good name I had
established, the business would not have been successful.

When I closed the doors on machining, it was a decision I made so I could
pursue a different vocation, one of refining precious metals. It, too, was
a resounding success, thanks to my concern for quality and my ability to
actually earn my pay-----without stealing from the customer, or charging
unreasonable fees. It is for that reason I suggested that I am not a good
person to challenge, as I lived what I preach, and I still do. I dare say
you won't find another like me, not where money is concerned.

And of course that would have applied to you the owner also.

So were you happy drawing minimum wage?

I was happy with the money I made, yes. I was also cheaper than virtually
all shops around me. I slept well when my head hit the pillow, secure in
the knowledge that I had done my best, and had earned my humble pay. Most
importantly, I was not working for someone that had more interest in making
money than they did in doing a job right. I worked for just such a person
before I worked for myself. Didn't much like it.

I also never found need to own three boats, a house that was beyond my means
(I won't include the castle, which was instrumental in my success in
precious metals), didn't smoke cigarettes, didn't do drugs, didn't drink $50
bottles of wine, and didn't buy the latest and greatest in clothing and
other foolish expenditures. Didn't buy new vehicles yearly. One must be
happy within---and I am. Those that find they must compete with others
and have the best in the latest trends are a big part of the problem. I'm
not one of them.

The most important thing I've learned in my life is that people are not
worth what the want to be paid. Most of them have poor qualifications in
their chosen trade or profession, and expect payment beyond their worth.
They're paying the price for that now, and they don't like it. They think
it's going to be business as usual (when things improve), and I'm pretty
sure it's not. Those that have demanded unearned pay will never find that
level of income again, and they shouldn't.

Harold

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Now what if that CEO used to be a hamburger flipper...and was named
Ray Kroc.

I'm not the least concerned what a name may be, nor does the name Ray Kroc
mean anything to me. Sorry.


Ray Kroc was a traveling salesman for the mixers used in restaurants.
He went to the McDonald brother's restaurant in his travels and
suggested that they franchise. They weren't interested, and sold him
the rights. He was interested in selling more equipment, and thought
that a chain of restaurants would provide a good income. He wrote a
book* about the history of McDonald's, which the toad never read, or he
wouldn't have called him a burger flipper. Some of his ideas spilled
over into other businesses, like the sliced hamburger buns. It also
describes the mistakes he made along the way, and how he fixed them. It
is the story of someone not afraid of work, and able to think on his
feet. He was 52 when he started the business.

*Grinding It Out: The Making Of McDonald's
ISBN-10: 0312929870
ISBN-13: 978-0312929879


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

On Oct 14, 10:33*pm, "Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message

...
snip---Harold...the point is how does one assess what quality what

compensation produces.

You don't, * It has been my experience that those with a good work ethic and
pride in themselves don't work better or faster if they are given a raise..
They work at a steady and productive rate---because that's who and what they
are. * You most likely haven't experienced anything like that in the same
way I have, *as I suspect you're of the generation that doesn't understand
the value of these qualities. *Not trying to be rude---just stating what I
have learned in my 72 years of life. * Precious few young people, those that
came through the 60's, have respectable values. * Sorry, but that's my
observation.

You say that paying more does not guarantee better quality.
I say that paying more can improve your chances to get better quality.

I'll use the same theory and assume that standing in the garage long enough
will make me a car.

Fair?

What prevents a slacker from demanding money beyond his worth? * Pay him
more and he simply demands more yet. *We've seen that with the corrupted
unions, where they have convinced the worker that they are entitled to
portions of the profits of the businesses for which they work. * If that was
true, would they not be just as responsible for losses, and have to forfeit
pay when things were bad? * What's the difference?

If it takes more money to get someone to do what they bargained to do for
you in the first place, it's a statement about them, not the wages you pay.
I maintain, and it would be a virtual impossibility for me to perceive it
any differently (thanks to personal experiences). * *I maintain the posture
that if you hire a person to work and they accept the terms of being hired,
then they drag their feet, they are a classic example of those I speak of..
If they don't like conditions, why in hell did they accept the offer?

Gummer has a LONG history of being caught lying...so I would suggest

not using him as a "standard of quality".

I'm not a Christian and I know better than to judge others. * Shame on you.
Gunner is what he is, and he's a living, breathing human being. *Let him be.

I chose the CEO example to show that more money is not a guarantee for

better quality.

I chose the hamburger flipper to show that less money is not a

guarantee for better quality either.

That be the case, why are we having this discussion? * *If you agree that
paying more does not guarantee quality, that's been my point right along.
What guarantees quality is hiring people with qualifications *that have
pride in their work*. * *They know and understand that the work they turn
out bears their name---and will produce quality as a matter of course. * I
worked with several that shared that philosophy, many of whom went on to
found their own businesses, just as I did. * They were all successful, save
for one, who had an attitude of entitlement. *Nice guy, just no pride.

Now what if that CEO used to be a hamburger flipper...and was named

Ray Kroc.

I'm not the least concerned what a name may be, nor does the name Ray Kroc
mean anything to me. * Sorry.

You mentioned that you had a machine shop.
On your theory that higher compensation does not mean quality, I would

assume that you paid all who worked there minimum wage regardless of
their title.

So how did that work for you?

You haven't been paying attention, have you?
Did you take note of my original comment that if you wanted things done
right, to do them yourself?

I spent the 16 years in my commercial shop working alone. * Do not let that
taint your picture of my success. *I had mainstream customers, well
recognized in the defense industry. *I numbered amongst them Sperry/Univac
(same corporation in different time intervals), Litton Guidance and Control,
and in the pharmaceutical industry, Becton Dickinson, for whom I was sole
source for precision metering pumps for a computerized blood analyzing
machine. * *That's what happens when one places quality before making money.

Reason I worked alone?

Because I knew my work could be trusted. * I knew that the work of others
could not be, nor would money motivate them to be responsible. *Those
amongst my peers that had the needed *killer* instinct to do great work all
went on to found their own businesses, and there number was surprisingly
large.

My rejection record proved my point, and the few rejections I received
proved I was human and subject to error. * I *never* knowingly shipped a
single item I knew to not be to specifications. * Even if it meant running
at a loss for a prolonged period of time, which happened on more than one
occasion. * In the end, it was still my name on the work, and it was more
important to me than making money. * Truth is, without the good name I had
established, the business would not have been successful.

When I closed the doors on machining, it was a decision I made so I could
pursue a different vocation, one of refining precious metals. *It, too, was
a resounding success, thanks to my concern for quality and my ability to
actually earn my pay-----without stealing from the customer, or charging
unreasonable fees. * It is for that reason *I suggested that I am not a good
person to challenge, as I lived what I preach, and I still do. * I dare say
you won't find another like me, not where money is concerned.

And of course that would have applied to you the owner also.
So were you happy drawing minimum wage?

I was happy with the money I made, yes. *I was also cheaper than virtually
all shops around me. * *I slept well when my head hit the pillow, secure in
the knowledge that I had done my best, and had earned my humble pay. * Most
importantly, I was not working for someone that had more interest in making
money than they did in doing a job right. * I worked for just such a person
before I worked for myself. *Didn't much like it.

I also never found need to own three boats, a house that was beyond my means
(I won't include the castle, which was instrumental in my success in
precious metals), didn't smoke cigarettes, didn't do drugs, didn't drink $50
bottles of wine, and didn't buy the latest and greatest in clothing and
other foolish expenditures. *Didn't buy new vehicles yearly. *One must be
happy within---and I am. * *Those that find they must compete with others
and have the best in the latest trends are a big part of the problem. *I'm
not one of them.

The most important thing I've learned in my life is that people are not
worth what the want to be paid. * Most of them have poor qualifications in
their chosen trade or profession, and expect payment beyond their worth.
They're paying the price for that now, and they don't like it. *They think
it's going to be business as usual (when things improve), and I'm pretty
sure it's not. * Those that have demanded unearned pay will never find that
level of income again, and they shouldn't.

Harold

I see that you are not answering the question...

So were you happy drawing minimum wage?

And if so, were you overpaid since you were the owner?

If not, did you pay yourself more for the same quality of work?

History shows that management almost to the one will short those who
work for them..the people who generate the productivity that creates
the compensation for the management.

Once in a great while you will hear of a story of an owner paying the
employees what he is getting...another version is that the boss gives
the employees the business when he has retires.

Did you do either of these things Harold?

TMT

TMT

On Oct 15, 9:43*am, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:



Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Now what if that CEO used to be a hamburger flipper...and was named
Ray Kroc.

I'm not the least concerned what a name may be, nor does the name Ray Kroc
mean anything to me. * Sorry.

* *Ray Kroc was a traveling salesman for the mixers used in restaurants.
He went to the McDonald brother's restaurant in his travels and
suggested that they franchise. *They weren't interested, and sold him
the rights. *He was interested in selling more equipment, and thought
that a chain of restaurants would provide a good income. *He wrote a
book* about the history of McDonald's, which the toad never read, or he
wouldn't have called him a burger flipper. *Some of his ideas spilled
over into other businesses, like the sliced hamburger buns. It also
describes the mistakes he made along the way, and how he fixed them. *It
is the story of someone not afraid of work, and able to think on his
feet. *He was 52 when he started the business.

*Grinding It Out: The Making Of McDonald's
ISBN-10: 0312929870
ISBN-13: 978-0312929879

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

LOL..you are a toad if you think Ray didn't flip burgers.

Per your own evidence...why would someone who "never flipped a burger"
even think of preslicing a hamburger bun?

Hint : Because it is a sign of someone who is making hamburgers and
trying to make them faster.

TMT

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
snip--

I see that you are not answering the question...

I see that you're intent on badgering me.

So were you happy drawing minimum wage?

Again, I was happy with my humble income----which was more than one that
held a job working as a machinist, and less than those that tend to work
just for money.

Are you asking if I made shop rate? If so, yes, I normally did.

If not, did you pay yourself more for the same quality of work?
At this point I'm beginning to understand why you're not well liked here.

As I said, I didn't work better or worse for my customers, especially not
based on money. I always gave each job my undivided attention, and produced
the best possible quality, according to my skill level and ability. Money
played no role in my output. Being a human, and subject to mistakes, there
were occasions where I misquoted work and ended up working for less than
shop rate. There were also occasions where a job went better than I
expected and I made more than shop rate. Your question is not relevant in
my circumstances, because my income was based on many variables. It's not
like hiring in a job where one is paid hourly or on salary.

History shows that management almost to the one will short those who
work for them..the people who generate the productivity that creates
the compensation for the management.

Sites, please. At this point, your comments have little value to me. I'm
sure you understand.

It doesn't appear to me that auto workers were short changed by management.
In fact, far from it. Sure, their crooked union wanted them to think they
were worth $100/hour, but their jobs simply weren't, so, coupled with their
inferior workmanship, we now see Detroit as a losing proposition that
struggles to compete. That's more than enough evidence for me, by the way.

Mean time, you obviously do not know a friend of mine, who takes very good
care of his employees, and has no visions of treating them poorly. He
operates a carbide sharpening service in Utah, by the way, and turns out
exceptional quality for a fair price.

Makes me wonder what you've done in your life to warrant the kind to
treatment you apparently are speaking of. Are you one of those I've been
speaking of that has little talent and expects unearned money? Such people
are always the victim, when, in fact, they get more than they deserve---and
certainly more than they earn.

Once in a great while you will hear of a story of an owner paying the
employees what he is getting...another version is that the boss gives
the employees the business when he has retires.

Did you do either of these things Harold?

Again, you're trying to get my goat, but I'm on to you. You clearly are
ignoring the fact that you were told that I worked for myself, alone. I
didn't hire people, because I'm all too aware that they will disappoint.
Those that won't aren't looking for a job---they're busy running their own
business.

I think you and I have discussed this issue as far as it's going to get
discussed. I'm tired of your badgering.

Harold

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Now what if that CEO used to be a hamburger flipper...and was named
Ray Kroc.

I'm not the least concerned what a name may be, nor does the name Ray
Kroc
mean anything to me. Sorry.


Ray Kroc was a traveling salesman for the mixers used in restaurants.
He went to the McDonald brother's restaurant in his travels and
suggested that they franchise. They weren't interested, and sold him
the rights. He was interested in selling more equipment, and thought
that a chain of restaurants would provide a good income. He wrote a
book* about the history of McDonald's, which the toad never read, or he
wouldn't have called him a burger flipper. Some of his ideas spilled
over into other businesses, like the sliced hamburger buns. It also
describes the mistakes he made along the way, and how he fixed them. It
is the story of someone not afraid of work, and able to think on his
feet. He was 52 when he started the business.

*Grinding It Out: The Making Of McDonald's
ISBN-10: 0312929870
ISBN-13: 978-0312929879


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

Thanks, Michael.

Harold

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
m...

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Now what if that CEO used to be a hamburger flipper...and was named
Ray Kroc.

I'm not the least concerned what a name may be, nor does the name Ray
Kroc
mean anything to me. Sorry.


Ray Kroc was a traveling salesman for the mixers used in restaurants.
He went to the McDonald brother's restaurant in his travels and
suggested that they franchise. They weren't interested, and sold him
the rights. He was interested in selling more equipment, and thought
that a chain of restaurants would provide a good income. He wrote a
book* about the history of McDonald's, which the toad never read, or he
wouldn't have called him a burger flipper. Some of his ideas spilled
over into other businesses, like the sliced hamburger buns. It also
describes the mistakes he made along the way, and how he fixed them. It
is the story of someone not afraid of work, and able to think on his
feet. He was 52 when he started the business.

*Grinding It Out: The Making Of McDonald's
ISBN-10: 0312929870
ISBN-13: 978-0312929879

Thanks, Michael.


You're welcome. Like you, I've always taken pride in my work.
That's why the boss always brought me the toughest jobs in the plant,
then told me I was hard to get along with because I wouldn't take no for
an answer when I wasn't satisfied with the quality of something. OTOH,
they brought me everything that had to meet NASA's standards for space.



--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

On Oct 16, 12:26*am, "Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message

...
snip--

I see that you are not answering the question...

I see that you're intent on badgering me.

So were you happy drawing minimum wage?

Again, I was happy with my humble income----which was more than one that
held a job working as a machinist, and less than those that tend to work
just for money.

Quote:

And if so, were you overpaid since you were the owner?

Are you asking if I made shop rate? * *If so, yes, I normally did.

If not, did you pay yourself more for the same quality of work?

At this point I'm beginning to understand why you're not well liked here.

As I said, I didn't work better or worse for my customers, especially not
based on money. *I always gave each job my undivided attention, and produced
the best possible quality, according to my skill level and ability. * Money
played no role in my output. * Being a human, and subject to mistakes, there
were occasions where I misquoted work and ended up working for less than
shop rate. *There were also occasions where a job went better than I
expected and I made more than shop rate. * Your question is not relevant in
my circumstances, because my income was based on many variables. *It's not
like hiring in a job where one is paid hourly or on salary.

History shows that management almost to the one will short those who

work for them..the people who generate the productivity that creates
the compensation for the management.

Sites, please. * At this point, your comments have little value to me. *I'm
sure you understand.

It doesn't appear to me that auto workers were short changed by management.

On Oct 16, 12:42*am, "Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in messagenews:36ydnU8MPLGyAQTTnZ2dnUVZ_oudnZ2d@earth link.com...







Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Now what if that CEO used to be a hamburger flipper...and was named
Ray Kroc.

I'm not the least concerned what a name may be, nor does the name Ray
Kroc
mean anything to me. * Sorry.

* Ray Kroc was a traveling salesman for the mixers used in restaurants.
He went to the McDonald brother's restaurant in his travels and
suggested that they franchise. *They weren't interested, and sold him
the rights. *He was interested in selling more equipment, and thought
that a chain of restaurants would provide a good income. *He wrote a
book* about the history of McDonald's, which the toad never read, or he
wouldn't have called him a burger flipper. *Some of his ideas spilled
over into other businesses, like the sliced hamburger buns. It also
describes the mistakes he made along the way, and how he fixed them. *It
is the story of someone not afraid of work, and able to think on his
feet. *He was 52 when he started the business.

*Grinding It Out: The Making Of McDonald's
ISBN-10: 0312929870
ISBN-13: 978-0312929879

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

Thanks, Michael.

Harold- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you are interested in the life of Ray Kroc, there is plenty on the
Web.

Also one can visit the museum...interesting example of idol worship.

TMT

On Oct 16, 12:55*am, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:







"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
om...

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Now what if that CEO used to be a hamburger flipper...and was named
Ray Kroc.

I'm not the least concerned what a name may be, nor does the name Ray
Kroc
mean anything to me. * Sorry.

* Ray Kroc was a traveling salesman for the mixers used in restaurants.
He went to the McDonald brother's restaurant in his travels and
suggested that they franchise. *They weren't interested, and sold him
the rights. *He was interested in selling more equipment, and thought
that a chain of restaurants would provide a good income. *He wrote a
book* about the history of McDonald's, which the toad never read, or he
wouldn't have called him a burger flipper. *Some of his ideas spilled
over into other businesses, like the sliced hamburger buns. It also
describes the mistakes he made along the way, and how he fixed them. *It
is the story of someone not afraid of work, and able to think on his
feet. *He was 52 when he started the business.

*Grinding It Out: The Making Of McDonald's
ISBN-10: 0312929870
ISBN-13: 978-0312929879

Thanks, Michael.

* *You're welcome. *Like you, I've always taken pride in my work.
That's why the boss always brought me the toughest jobs in the plant,
then told me I was hard to get along with because I wouldn't take no for
an answer when I wasn't satisfied with the quality of something. *OTOH,
they brought me everything that had to meet NASA's standards for space.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Pride does not pay the bills.

Were you paid more for that quality or just minimum wage?

TMT

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
snip--

Harold...I am not trying to pick a fight nor am I am badgering you.

I do note that you have launched several personal attacks on me..
Show me one example. Just one will do.

.to
divert from the subject that you bought up.

That's absurd.

Harold

On Oct 16, 11:08*pm, "Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message

...
snip--

Harold...I am not trying to pick a fight nor am I am badgering you.
I do note that you have launched several personal attacks on me..

Show me one example. *Just one will do.

.to

divert from the subject that you bought up.

That's absurd.

Harold

One example..

"Makes me wonder what you've done in your life to warrant the kind to
treatment you apparently are speaking of. Are you one of those I've
been
speaking of that has little talent and expects unearned money? Such
people
are always the victim, when, in fact, they get more than they
deserve---and
certainly more than they earn."

Harold..like you I have had to earn every dollar I have..no free
lunches, no easy ride, no silver spoon. In my life's journey I could
be bitter or better to those who share life's journey with me...I have
chosen to take the high road in life and look for the good in people.

Diversion from subject..

Harold...I stated that I pay my employees well..because I want them to
work for me again...and that means I get the quality of work I expect.

You then told us that quality and pay are not related...and I
disagreed.

Again...my comments are not meant to badger you...they are meant to
explain to you why I do what I do.

If I hired you for a job and paid you more than you expected for the
quality that you have produced, would you not want to work for me
again?

TMT

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
On Oct 16, 11:08 pm, "Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message

...
snip--

Harold...I am not trying to pick a fight nor am I am badgering you.
I do note that you have launched several personal attacks on me..

Show me one example. Just one will do.

.to

divert from the subject that you bought up.

That's absurd.

Harold

*One example..

"Makes me wonder what you've done in your life to warrant the kind to
treatment you apparently are speaking of. Are you one of those I've
been
speaking of that has little talent and expects unearned money? Such
people
are always the victim, when, in fact, they get more than they
deserve---and
certainly more than they earn."

No, not an example at all. I did not attack your character---I simply asked
a question. A simple yes or no answer was expected. I wondered (then, and
still do, now) why you feel that money equates to quality. Could my
suggestion be the reason?

It's not that I don't understand your reasoning. I do. It's just that I
don't agree----and when you're right, it's not because money buys
quality--it's because you have people in your employ that are *not motivated
by pride*. That's what I've been saying right along. Show me an employee
with skill and pride and I'll show you an employee that will give you his
best performance, even if he doesn't happen to be the highest paid guy in
the shop. Seen it time and again. It's a statement about the character of
the individual.

I worked jobs where I knew I wasn't making as much money as I would have
liked to have been making----(who does?), but I still maintain that I did
the job to the best of my ability---that I wouldn't have worked any *better*
(for lack of a better description) were I paid more. I consider that a
sleazy side of humans---a quality I do not respect. I did my best because
that's the impression I wanted others to have of me and my skill level.
That was the inducement to pay me a fair wage. They didn't have to buy it
from me, it came with the job I didn't bargain for the half guy---I
bargained for all of the guy. It's called pride, a long lost commodity,
or so it seems.


*You then told us that quality and pay are not related...and I
disagreed.

Yes, I did, and I still do. You're trying to have me believe that if you
throw enough money at an employee that he suddenly becomes a good employee.
*I say you're wrong*. If you hire a good employee, he'll be a good
employee and do good work because that's who he/she is. They may or may not
stay around if they feel they are not well taken care of--but they still do
their jobs. If they don't, they're NOT good employees, and throwing money at
them won't fix the problem. As soon as they're comfortable with the new
wage, they want more. Nothing you can say will change my mind, for I've
seen examples of what I speak on numerous occasions. Some folks simply won't
do a good job, and some won't do a bad job. *It's who they are*, not what
they're paid.

*If I hired you for a job and paid you more than you expected for the
quality that you have produced, would you not want to work for me
again?

No one in their right mind could answer that question, for they don't have a
clue about how you are as a manager, nor of your expectations. I quit two
of my jobs because I didn't like management. The second one was high pay,
and I was working as a toolmaker. The job didn't play out as I had hoped,
in spite of good pay.

It takes more than money to keep me happy. Having respect for my skill and
talent is far more important---which is what I've tried to have you
understand right along. Until you lose the notion that money equates to
quality, none of this is going to make sense to you.

The friend I spoke of, the one that does the carbide saw sharpening, pays
exceedingly well, but that hasn't stopped some of his employees from being
slackers. How much more must he do for them in order for them to be more
responsible? They're already overpaid as far as I'm concerned.

Harold

On Mon, 17 Oct 2011 04:08:24 GMT, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
snip--

Harold...I am not trying to pick a fight nor am I am badgering you.

I do note that you have launched several personal attacks on me..
Show me one example. Just one will do.

.to
divert from the subject that you bought up.

That's absurd.

Harold, you are being trolled. PDFTFT.

--
Good ideas alter the power balance in relationships, that is why
good ideas are always initially resisted. Good ideas come with a
heavy burden. Which is why so few people have them. So few people
can handle it.
-- Hugh Macleod