Inspector told me I need my outlets for lights and future garage door
opener in the ceiling GFCI protected. My 100 amp panel I bought comes
with 4 20 amp breakers as well as the 100 amp main breaker.

Obviously installign GCI outlets in the ceiling is out because if they
trip I would have to get a ladder to reset it.

Probably the best thing to do is to go and buy some GFCI breakers.

I also have the option on at least one circuit to install a GFCI
outlet along the wall and wire that to the ceiling outlets. But this
seems like it is not the "right" way to do it. Someone other than me
might not figure out if the ceilign outlets tripped, where to reset
them?

What would you do?

On Aug 28, 8:17*am, stryped wrote:
Inspector told me I need my outlets for lights and future garage door
opener in the ceiling GFCI protected. My 100 amp panel I bought comes
with 4 20 amp breakers as well as the 100 amp main breaker.

Obviously installign GCI outlets in the ceiling is out because if they
trip I would have to get a ladder to reset it.

Probably the best thing to do is to go and buy some GFCI breakers.

I also have the option on at least one circuit to install a GFCI
outlet along the wall and wire that to the ceiling outlets. But this
seems like it is not the "right" way to do it. Someone other than me
might not figure out if the ceilign outlets tripped, where to reset
them?

What would you do?

GFCI breakers are more sensitive than the outlets- or maybe just trip
faster. Only downside is you need to go to the breaker panel to reset.

If you power an outlet off of a GFCI outlet, the GFCI outlets come
with stickers to label the protected outlets (or you can do so with a
marker, etc).

Dave

I put the GFCI outlet in the wall... and put the little stickers that
come in the package, that say "GFCI Protected Outlet", on the ceiling
outlets.
If somebody can't figure out how to reset them after reading the
stickers on the outlets, they probably shouldn't be messing around with
electricity anyway.


"stryped" wrote in message
...
Inspector told me I need my outlets for lights and future garage door
opener in the ceiling GFCI protected. My 100 amp panel I bought comes
with 4 20 amp breakers as well as the 100 amp main breaker.

Obviously installign GCI outlets in the ceiling is out because if they
trip I would have to get a ladder to reset it.

Probably the best thing to do is to go and buy some GFCI breakers.

I also have the option on at least one circuit to install a GFCI
outlet along the wall and wire that to the ceiling outlets. But this
seems like it is not the "right" way to do it. Someone other than me
might not figure out if the ceilign outlets tripped, where to reset
them?

What would you do?

On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 05:17:14 -0700 (PDT), stryped
wrote:

Inspector told me I need my outlets for lights and future garage door
opener in the ceiling GFCI protected. My 100 amp panel I bought comes
with 4 20 amp breakers as well as the 100 amp main breaker.

Obviously installign GCI outlets in the ceiling is out because if they
trip I would have to get a ladder to reset it.

Probably the best thing to do is to go and buy some GFCI breakers.

I also have the option on at least one circuit to install a GFCI
outlet along the wall and wire that to the ceiling outlets. But this
seems like it is not the "right" way to do it. Someone other than me
might not figure out if the ceilign outlets tripped, where to reset
them?

What would you do?

Check back with the inspector and gert a clarification - the ceiling
outlet for the Garage Door Operator is a "Dedicated appliance
receptacle" and should not fall under the GFCI or AFCI rules.

You might have to use a single receptacle and label it "Door Opener
Only!" to convince the inspector it is a dedicated outlet just for the
opener, but I just use a 49c standard duplex up there - it never gets
plugged and unplugged, so a cheapie should last forever.

Unles they changed something very recently or it's a local addition,
the GDO outlet on the ceiling should not need to be a GFCI - that is
for convenience receptacles that you (the resident) can easily reach
and would be using for power tools and extension cords going outside.
But it wouldn't be the first time that an inspector mis-interprets the
code to be overly cautious.

(Be VERY careful arguing subleties and discretionary items in the
Codebook with a guy who has the power to order you to tear the whole
place down and start over... You can't just be right, you have to be
140% right.)

In that case, you simply cave - put a wall mount GFCI and then run
the GDO reeceptacle off the "Load" connections on the wall GFCI, then
it is protected. And if the GFCI trips out, it's easy to reach.

Oh, you do know no exposed Romex in the garage, right? Where it is
exposed to damage, you have to use EMT, Flex or BX Cable. You can
cheat and run Romex inside Flex, but it's a pain to work with - go buy
some wire.

-- Bruce --

"stryped" wrote in message
...
Inspector told me I need my outlets for lights and future garage door
opener in the ceiling GFCI protected. My 100 amp panel I bought comes
with 4 20 amp breakers as well as the 100 amp main breaker.

Obviously installign GCI outlets in the ceiling is out because if they
trip I would have to get a ladder to reset it.

Probably the best thing to do is to go and buy some GFCI breakers.

GFCI breakers tend to work better than GFCI outlets anyway. The only reason
most new construction builders use GFCI outlets for wet circuits is price.

On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 18:45:38 -0700, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote:

A GFCI breaker is a good idea for the whole house. They compare the current out on the Phase lines with the return current on the
Neutral line. They are rated with the amount of imbalance they will tolerate before tripping. Please remember that 50 ma across
your heart is deadly, so the breaker should be for tolerance less than that. It is not necessary for all your breakers to be
ground fault capable, only one, the 100 amp main breaker. In that way, all service outlets and loads down stream will have this
protection. For clarity a 100 amp GFCI breaker rated at 30ma will trip under two conditions. One, when the 100 amp service is
exceeded or two, at any time an imbalance exceeding 30 ma exists. In the case of a fault, all breakers need to be manually
tripped. Then, reset the 100 amp GFCI breaker. After that, reset each breaker one at a time until the GFCI breaker trips again.
The circuit fed by that breaker will be the source of the ground fault. This process is then repeated with the individual loads on
that circuit until the main breaker trips again identifying the offending load.
Steve

WRONG. They do make Class B GFCI breakers, but those are meant for
equipment protection - they trip at 20 to 40 milliamps imbalance in
case the electric pump motor or the control panel is melting down, not
2 to 3 milliamps for personnel protection.

They make big GFCI units for building main breakers - 20A or much
larger (most let you set a potentiometer or a DIP switch to choose the
trip level) imbalance trip on a 1200A breaker. But that's to catch a
large fault in the building wiring - you could ground yourself and get
fried well-done and it wouldn't even care...

Then there are the Arc Fault Circuit Interruptors they now insist on
using on bedroom circuits - in theory a good idea if you get a nail
pinch in the walls, or a shorted extension cord or small appliance in
the bedrooms. In practice, it's just looking for an excuse to false
trip. The AFCI false trips, your alarm clock fails to go off, and you
are late for work. Do that a few times, and you won't have a job to
be late TO.

Consider the new rules of putting "all kitchen receptacles" on a
GFCI. You go off for a thhree week vacation, and the next day the
GFCI circuit that has your refrigerator and frezer on it nuisance
trips - something dumb like a drop of water got across the connection
block in the fridge, and then it evaporated. Nobody there to notice or
reset it.

When you come back in three weeks and open that refrigerator door,
you'd better not have just eaten. Unless you have an iron
constitution (or work in the sewers) one good lungfull and your
cookies are going to get tossed.

-- Bruce --

stryped writes:


Probably the best thing to do is to go and buy some GFCI breakers.


ISTR something about GFCI outlets no longer be sufficient [GFCI breaker
needed..] but ask the inspector that one.

If allowed, put an outlet on the wall, mark both the ceiling outlet AND
the breaker chart on the panel door. No garage ever has enough outlets.

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

Oh, you do know no exposed Romex in the garage, right? Where it is
exposed to damage, you have to use EMT, Flex or BX Cable. You can
cheat and run Romex inside Flex, but it's a pain to work with - go buy
some wire.


No exposed romex? When did that start?

Wes

On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 11:46:40 -0700, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 18:45:38 -0700, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote:

A GFCI breaker is a good idea for the whole house. They compare the current out on the Phase lines with the return current on the
Neutral line. They are rated with the amount of imbalance they will tolerate before tripping. Please remember that 50 ma across
your heart is deadly, so the breaker should be for tolerance less than that. It is not necessary for all your breakers to be
ground fault capable, only one, the 100 amp main breaker. In that way, all service outlets and loads down stream will have this
protection. For clarity a 100 amp GFCI breaker rated at 30ma will trip under two conditions. One, when the 100 amp service is
exceeded or two, at any time an imbalance exceeding 30 ma exists. In the case of a fault, all breakers need to be manually
tripped. Then, reset the 100 amp GFCI breaker. After that, reset each breaker one at a time until the GFCI breaker trips again.
The circuit fed by that breaker will be the source of the ground fault. This process is then repeated with the individual loads on
that circuit until the main breaker trips again identifying the offending load.
Steve

WRONG. They do make Class B GFCI breakers, but those are meant for
equipment protection - they trip at 20 to 40 milliamps imbalance in
case the electric pump motor or the control panel is melting down, not
2 to 3 milliamps for personnel protection.

They make big GFCI units for building main breakers - 20A or much
larger (most let you set a potentiometer or a DIP switch to choose the
trip level) imbalance trip on a 1200A breaker. But that's to catch a
large fault in the building wiring - you could ground yourself and get
fried well-done and it wouldn't even care...

Then there are the Arc Fault Circuit Interruptors they now insist on
using on bedroom circuits - in theory a good idea if you get a nail
pinch in the walls, or a shorted extension cord or small appliance in
the bedrooms. In practice, it's just looking for an excuse to false
trip. The AFCI false trips, your alarm clock fails to go off, and you
are late for work. Do that a few times, and you won't have a job to
be late TO.

Consider the new rules of putting "all kitchen receptacles" on a
GFCI. You go off for a thhree week vacation, and the next day the
GFCI circuit that has your refrigerator and frezer on it nuisance
trips - something dumb like a drop of water got across the connection
block in the fridge, and then it evaporated. Nobody there to notice or
reset it.

When you come back in three weeks and open that refrigerator door,
you'd better not have just eaten. Unless you have an iron
constitution (or work in the sewers) one good lungfull and your
cookies are going to get tossed.

-- Bruce --
Fridge MUST be dedicated circuit by code - and does NOT need to be
gfci (being a motor - should not be GFCI)

A GFCI breaker is a good idea for the whole house. They compare the current out on the Phase lines with the return current on the
Neutral line. They are rated with the amount of imbalance they will tolerate before tripping. Please remember that 50 ma across
your heart is deadly, so the breaker should be for tolerance less than that. It is not necessary for all your breakers to be
ground fault capable, only one, the 100 amp main breaker. In that way, all service outlets and loads down stream will have this
protection. For clarity a 100 amp GFCI breaker rated at 30ma will trip under two conditions. One, when the 100 amp service is
exceeded or two, at any time an imbalance exceeding 30 ma exists. In the case of a fault, all breakers need to be manually
tripped. Then, reset the 100 amp GFCI breaker. After that, reset each breaker one at a time until the GFCI breaker trips again.
The circuit fed by that breaker will be the source of the ground fault. This process is then repeated with the individual loads on
that circuit until the main breaker trips again identifying the offending load.
Steve

"stryped" wrote in message ...
Inspector told me I need my outlets for lights and future garage door
opener in the ceiling GFCI protected. My 100 amp panel I bought comes
with 4 20 amp breakers as well as the 100 amp main breaker.

Obviously installign GCI outlets in the ceiling is out because if they
trip I would have to get a ladder to reset it.

Probably the best thing to do is to go and buy some GFCI breakers.

I also have the option on at least one circuit to install a GFCI
outlet along the wall and wire that to the ceiling outlets. But this
seems like it is not the "right" way to do it. Someone other than me
might not figure out if the ceilign outlets tripped, where to reset
them?

What would you do?

On Aug 28, 11:46*am, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

* Consider the new rules of putting "all kitchen receptacles" on a
GFCI. *You go off for a three week vacation, and the next day the
GFCI circuit that has your refrigerator and freezer on it nuisance
trips - something dumb like a drop of water got across the connection
block in the fridge, and then it evaporated. Nobody there to notice or
reset it.

* When you come back in three weeks and open that refrigerator door,
you'd better not have just eaten. *Unless you have an iron
constitution (or work in the sewers) one good lungfull and your
cookies are going to get tossed.

You think that's bad? Wait till they try to make you put a GFCI on the
outlet on the cook top, esp. if it's close to the sink. That's a
peach.

As for the fridge/freezer, see if you can hardwire it in like a
disposall. PITA to get it out but it gets around the problem.

Bruce,
I'm confused. Just what statement did I make that was wrong? I did not state that any anything was unavailable. On the statement
you made, are you insinuating that class B GFI breakers trip slower than say class A GFI breakers in the case of imbalance? If you
are, that simply is incorrect. Breaker class refers to the overcurrent trip curve, not current imbalance between phase and
neutral. In all GFI breaker classes, imbalance trip is immediate without program delay. I cannot nor did I refer to any "CODE"
requirements... I simply do not know what rules you have to follow. As for the level of protection difference offered by imbalance
trip currents below 50 milliamps... it is effectively nil. As to your reference of false imbalance trips, in my experience, they
don't exist and if you have a device that causes these....get rid of it. It is unsafe. I have my whole house AND my machine shop
covered with one GFI breaker and I assure you it is very sensitive to the slightest current leakage and yet it successfully
supports 15 HP 3 phase motors. As an example I cannot use ANY inline AC line filters that connect to safety earth. Even the
slightest leakage current trips my main breaker.
Steve

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message ...
On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 18:45:38 -0700, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote:

A GFCI breaker is a good idea for the whole house. They compare the current out on the Phase lines with the return current on
the
Neutral line. They are rated with the amount of imbalance they will tolerate before tripping. Please remember that 50 ma across
your heart is deadly, so the breaker should be for tolerance less than that. It is not necessary for all your breakers to be
ground fault capable, only one, the 100 amp main breaker. In that way, all service outlets and loads down stream will have this
protection. For clarity a 100 amp GFCI breaker rated at 30ma will trip under two conditions. One, when the 100 amp service is
exceeded or two, at any time an imbalance exceeding 30 ma exists. In the case of a fault, all breakers need to be manually
tripped. Then, reset the 100 amp GFCI breaker. After that, reset each breaker one at a time until the GFCI breaker trips again.
The circuit fed by that breaker will be the source of the ground fault. This process is then repeated with the individual loads
on
that circuit until the main breaker trips again identifying the offending load.
Steve

WRONG. They do make Class B GFCI breakers, but those are meant for
equipment protection - they trip at 20 to 40 milliamps imbalance in
case the electric pump motor or the control panel is melting down, not
2 to 3 milliamps for personnel protection.

They make big GFCI units for building main breakers - 20A or much
larger (most let you set a potentiometer or a DIP switch to choose the
trip level) imbalance trip on a 1200A breaker. But that's to catch a
large fault in the building wiring - you could ground yourself and get
fried well-done and it wouldn't even care...

Then there are the Arc Fault Circuit Interruptors they now insist on
using on bedroom circuits - in theory a good idea if you get a nail
pinch in the walls, or a shorted extension cord or small appliance in
the bedrooms. In practice, it's just looking for an excuse to false
trip. The AFCI false trips, your alarm clock fails to go off, and you
are late for work. Do that a few times, and you won't have a job to
be late TO.

Consider the new rules of putting "all kitchen receptacles" on a
GFCI. You go off for a thhree week vacation, and the next day the
GFCI circuit that has your refrigerator and frezer on it nuisance
trips - something dumb like a drop of water got across the connection
block in the fridge, and then it evaporated. Nobody there to notice or
reset it.

When you come back in three weeks and open that refrigerator door,
you'd better not have just eaten. Unless you have an iron
constitution (or work in the sewers) one good lungfull and your
cookies are going to get tossed.

-- Bruce --

On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 17:24:00 -0400, Wes wrote:

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

Oh, you do know no exposed Romex in the garage, right? Where it is
exposed to damage, you have to use EMT, Flex or BX Cable. You can
cheat and run Romex inside Flex, but it's a pain to work with - go buy
some wire.


No exposed romex? When did that start?

Wes


Its another State issue. Bruce and I live in California.

Other states do NOT have this rule.

Gunner

Whenever a Liberal utters the term "Common Sense approach"....grab your
wallet, your ass, and your guns because the sombitch is about to do
something damned nasty to all three of them.

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 17:24:00 -0400, Wes wrote:

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

Oh, you do know no exposed Romex in the garage, right? Where it is
exposed to damage, you have to use EMT, Flex or BX Cable. You can
cheat and run Romex inside Flex, but it's a pain to work with - go buy
some wire.


No exposed romex? When did that start?

Wes


Its another State issue. Bruce and I live in California.

Other states do NOT have this rule.

Gunner

Yes, they do, it's in the NEC.

On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 14:34:36 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 17:24:00 -0400, Wes wrote:

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

Oh, you do know no exposed Romex in the garage, right? Where it is
exposed to damage, you have to use EMT, Flex or BX Cable. You can
cheat and run Romex inside Flex, but it's a pain to work with - go buy
some wire.


No exposed romex? When did that start?

Wes


Its another State issue. Bruce and I live in California.

Other states do NOT have this rule.

Gunner

Whenever a Liberal utters the term "Common Sense approach"....grab your
wallet, your ass, and your guns because the sombitch is about to do
something damned nasty to all three of them.
SOME other states do not - and in California you can't use BX either,
correct???

On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 17:24:00 -0400, Wes wrote:

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

Oh, you do know no exposed Romex in the garage, right? Where it is
exposed to damage, you have to use EMT, Flex or BX Cable. You can
cheat and run Romex inside Flex, but it's a pain to work with - go buy
some wire.


No exposed romex? When did that start?

Long time ago - 30-plus years, not long after Romex went into wide
use - if you have it, more likely a lazy electrician and/or lax or no
City/County building inspection. (State for mobile homes.)

Romex can be exposed up in the attic, but that isn't considered to
be exposed to physical damage. (Yeah, Right, Sure...) But not in the
garage walls or rafters if it isn't drywalled for protection.

This is why I always keep a few rolls of MC-Lite with me. They
never mention where they want the new circuit...

-- Bruce --

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 17:24:00 -0400, Wes wrote:

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

Oh, you do know no exposed Romex in the garage, right? Where it is
exposed to damage, you have to use EMT, Flex or BX Cable. You can
cheat and run Romex inside Flex, but it's a pain to work with - go buy
some wire.


No exposed romex? When did that start?

Long time ago - 30-plus years, not long after Romex went into wide
use - if you have it, more likely a lazy electrician and/or lax or no
City/County building inspection. (State for mobile homes.)

Romex can be exposed up in the attic, but that isn't considered to
be exposed to physical damage. (Yeah, Right, Sure...) But not in the
garage walls or rafters if it isn't drywalled for protection.

This is why I always keep a few rolls of MC-Lite with me. They
never mention where they want the new circuit...

-- Bruce --

Romex above garage rafters has not been judged to be exposed to physical
damage by NY code officials, unless it's a recent development. Same code,
same rules, different interpretation.

"ATP*" wrote:

This is why I always keep a few rolls of MC-Lite with me. They
never mention where they want the new circuit...

-- Bruce --

Romex above garage rafters has not been judged to be exposed to physical
damage by NY code officials, unless it's a recent development. Same code,
same rules, different interpretation.

I wonder if this is one of those things where the code office guy can pick and choose on
how he interprets it?

A year or so ago, when my brother the real electrican was dealing with a blown archilies
tendon, I was helping him on a few jobs. In some lab benches we wired up, he used MC
cable where the exposure was limited to the underneath side of a undertable cabinet.

I'm sure Bruce wants his job to pass everytime and plays it safe. Exposed is subject to
interpretation and as Bruce mentioned, it isn't worth getting into a fight with the code
guy.

I remember my brother wanting his home he was building to pass without a single gripe. I
had to tell him that he might want to leave a gimme or the code guy will find something
more difficult just to prove he is doing his job. Sad but that is how things are.

Wes

On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 08:40:30 -0700, "Steve Lusardi"
wrote:

Bruce,
I'm confused. Just what statement did I make that was wrong? I did not state that any anything was unavailable. On the statement
you made, are you insinuating that class B GFI breakers trip slower than say class A GFI breakers in the case of imbalance? If you
are, that simply is incorrect. Breaker class refers to the overcurrent trip curve, not current imbalance between phase and
neutral. In all GFI breaker classes, imbalance trip is immediate without program delay. I cannot nor did I refer to any "CODE"
requirements... I simply do not know what rules you have to follow. As for the level of protection difference offered by imbalance
trip currents below 50 milliamps... it is effectively nil. As to your reference of false imbalance trips, in my experience, they
don't exist and if you have a device that causes these....get rid of it. It is unsafe. I have my whole house AND my machine shop
covered with one GFI breaker and I assure you it is very sensitive to the slightest current leakage and yet it successfully
supports 15 HP 3 phase motors. As an example I cannot use ANY inline AC line filters that connect to safety earth. Even the
slightest leakage current trips my main breaker.
Steve

You are in Germany apparently (.de URL) and they do things so
different over there as to almost eliminate common grounds for
discussion. I read the "International Codes and Devices" section in
the Pass & Seymour catalog, and it's... interesting. One of those
things that is totally natural if you grew up with it and understand
the logic, but it simply boggles the mind of an outsider.

You have Ring mains that cover the entire building with one big
circuit, fuses inside each receptacle and inside each cord cap on the
appliances, totally different rules on placement of devices in
bathrooms and near sinks...

And obviously, requirements to put the whole house main on a GFCI
and suffer through the inevitable nuisance trips. Over here, you only
put added protection on special-use circuits where it is necessary.

(To me, that's the "Green Acres" syndrome [1960's TV show] where the
lead characters are valiantly trying to go through life with a
hopelessly undersized rural electric system. Rationing their power
use with everything connected to a few recerptacles by cords, rather
than rip it out and start all over with sufficient circuits for their
needs.)

The Class A GFCI designation in the US only rates the sensitivity to
imbalance, where it trips at 2 to 3 MA imbalance line to return
(neutral). Class B GFCI is 20MA imbalance line to return, and only
available as a breaker to avoid accidental use where Class A is
required. The trip delay times are identical - on GFCI faults there
is no delay.

GFCI receptacles over here do not have any overload circuitry at
all. If it's a breaker, then there is a trip curve on the long-period
(thermal) overload section that can be altered for heavy motor
installations (and those breakers are special order only), but not on
the high-current (magnetic) section meant to clear short circuits.

I have had to kick things like decorative fountains with large
submersible pumps up to a Class B GFCI breaker solely because the
Class A would not hold in daily starts and stops with a timer. Every
time the pump kicked on, the capacitance of a few hundred feet of wire
to the pump coupled with the normal minor internal leakages in the
motor was just enough to trip it out.

-- Bruce --

On Fri, 28 Aug 2009 19:27:24 -0700 (PDT), N Morrison
wrote:
On Aug 28, 11:46*am, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

* Consider the new rules of putting "all kitchen receptacles" on a
GFCI. *You go off for a three week vacation, and the next day the
GFCI circuit that has your refrigerator and freezer on it nuisance
trips - something dumb like a drop of water got across the connection
block in the fridge, and then it evaporated. Nobody there to notice or
reset it.

* When you come back in three weeks and open that refrigerator door,
you'd better not have just eaten. *Unless you have an iron
constitution (or work in the sewers) one good lungfull and your
cookies are going to get tossed.

You think that's bad? Wait till they try to make you put a GFCI on the
outlet on the cook top, esp. if it's close to the sink. That's a
peach.

Vent hoods, same thing.

As for the fridge/freezer, see if you can hardwire it in like a
disposall. PITA to get it out but it gets around the problem.

Can't hardwire a fridge, there is no junction box to land the
BX/Flex/MC cable at.

They consider a receptacle behind the refrig to be enough - most
people aren't going to slide the fridge out just to plug something
else in back there.

-- Bruce --

Not in the 2008 code. There is an exception that allows it to be on
it's own circuit but article 210.50(B)(1) specifically includes
refrigeration equipment to be included in the two 20A branch
circuits. Exception #2 under that article allows refrigeration
equipment to be supplied from an individual branch circuit rated at
15A or greater. Since it is not a counter top outlet, it is exempt
from being GFCI protected.

Nate

wrote:

Fridge MUST be dedicated circuit by code - and does NOT need to be
gfci (being a motor - should not be GFCI)

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"ATP*" wrote:

This is why I always keep a few rolls of MC-Lite with me. They
never mention where they want the new circuit...

-- Bruce --

Romex above garage rafters has not been judged to be exposed to physical
damage by NY code officials, unless it's a recent development. Same code,
same rules, different interpretation.

I wonder if this is one of those things where the code office guy can pick
and choose on
how he interprets it?

A year or so ago, when my brother the real electrican was dealing with a
blown archilies
tendon, I was helping him on a few jobs. In some lab benches we wired up,
he used MC
cable where the exposure was limited to the underneath side of a
undertable cabinet.

I'm sure Bruce wants his job to pass everytime and plays it safe. Exposed
is subject to
interpretation and as Bruce mentioned, it isn't worth getting into a fight
with the code
guy.

I remember my brother wanting his home he was building to pass without a
single gripe. I
had to tell him that he might want to leave a gimme or the code guy will
find something
more difficult just to prove he is doing his job. Sad but that is how
things are.

Wes

It's also not always individual interpretation, the inspection
agency/agencies also decide to stress certain regulations and sort of make a
campaign out of it to get the point across. Fire inspections are the same
way.

On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 19:35:06 -0400, Wes wrote:
"ATP*" wrote:
Bruce Bergman wrote:

This is why I always keep a few rolls of MC-Lite with me. They
never mention where they want the new circuit...

Romex above garage rafters has not been judged to be exposed to physical
damage by NY code officials, unless it's a recent development. Same code,
same rules, different interpretation.

Quite true - the problem is, you can't transition easily in mid run
between NM Romex and MC-Lite BX cable.

You can put a sleeve of Flex over the NM Romex where it goes down
the wall to a switch or receptacle box, but then it gets tricky on how
they want you to treat it at the J-boxes - how do you arrange a strain
relief so it doesn't try to pull out of the box?

A staple where it pops out of the Flex sleeve isn't going to be
within a foot of the J-box, and a J-Nail on the Flex isn't going to
hold the Romex inside...

Just do the whole thing in pipe or MC and fuhgeddaboudit.

I wonder if this is one of those things where the code office guy can pick and choose on
how he interprets it?

A year or so ago, when my brother the real electrican was dealing with a blown archilies
tendon, I was helping him on a few jobs. In some lab benches we wired up, he used MC
cable where the exposure was limited to the underneath side of a undertable cabinet.

I'm sure Bruce wants his job to pass everytime and plays it safe. Exposed is subject to
interpretation and as Bruce mentioned, it isn't worth getting into a fight with the code
guy.

I remember my brother wanting his home he was building to pass without a single gripe. I
had to tell him that he might want to leave a gimme or the code guy will find something
more difficult just to prove he is doing his job. Sad but that is how things are.

Don't worry, they can always find _something_ to gig if they are
bound and determined. Things can be interpreted too many ways.

Been there, Wasted the better part of three days on old stuff we had
no responsibility for JUST to get that darned signature on the
Approved sticker.

-- Bruce --

On Aug 30, 4:47*pm, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

* You have Ring mains that cover the entire building with one big
circuit, fuses inside each receptacle and inside each cord cap on the
appliances, totally different rules on placement of devices in
bathrooms and near sinks...

The UK uses fused plugs. I've never seen those on other European plugs
- which are mostly 2 round pins with an optional side ground contact.

On Aug 30, 5:28*pm, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

* Don't worry, they can always find _something_ to gig if they are
bound and determined. *Things can be interpreted too many ways.

I remember one inspector who hated a particular electrician - on his
jobs surface mounted items would be rejected as insufficiently
attached, but you could see the pry marks where the inspector had
pried them off the wall!

On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 14:28:18 -0700 (PDT), N Morrison
wrote:

On Aug 30, 5:28*pm, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

* Don't worry, they can always find _something_ to gig if they are
bound and determined. *Things can be interpreted too many ways.

I remember one inspector who hated a particular electrician - on his
jobs surface mounted items would be rejected as insufficiently
attached, but you could see the pry marks where the inspector had
pried them off the wall!
The inspector who I used to deal with told me about one of the "city
licensed" (I wasn't) electricians working in the area; "when the crew
does the hook-up, they first ensure that the main breaker is OFF, then
he can come in with a basket of fuses and solve his own problems."
Gerry :-)}
London, Canada

On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 14:28:18 -0700 (PDT), N Morrison
wrote:

On Aug 30, 5:28*pm, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

* Don't worry, they can always find _something_ to gig if they are
bound and determined. *Things can be interpreted too many ways.

I remember one inspector who hated a particular electrician - on his
jobs surface mounted items would be rejected as insufficiently
attached, but you could see the pry marks where the inspector had
pried them off the wall!


How long did that inspector remain in traction, and did he ever regain
the ability to walk?

Gunner

Whenever a Liberal utters the term "Common Sense approach"....grab your
wallet, your ass, and your guns because the sombitch is about to do
something damned nasty to all three of them.

On Aug 31, 8:31*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 14:28:18 -0700 (PDT), N Morrison

wrote:
On Aug 30, 5:28*pm, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

* Don't worry, they can always find _something_ to gig if they are
bound and determined. *Things can be interpreted too many ways.

I remember one inspector who hated a particular electrician - on his
jobs surface mounted items would be rejected as insufficiently
attached, but you could see the pry marks where the inspector had
pried them off the wall!

How long did that inspector remain in traction, and did he ever regain
the ability to walk?

Gunner


So says Gunner the self-proclaimed Buddhist, who thinks that the only
answer to disagreement is violence.

On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 17:31:56 -0700, the infamous Gunner Asch
scrawled the following:

On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 14:28:18 -0700 (PDT), N Morrison
wrote:

On Aug 30, 5:28*pm, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

* Don't worry, they can always find _something_ to gig if they are
bound and determined. *Things can be interpreted too many ways.

I remember one inspector who hated a particular electrician - on his
jobs surface mounted items would be rejected as insufficiently
attached, but you could see the pry marks where the inspector had
pried them off the wall!


How long did that inspector remain in traction, and did he ever regain
the ability to walk?

I'd like to see the movie the electrician took to prove his point
about the jerk.

--
Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority.
It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard
the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all
ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to
be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster

On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 20:14:16 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 17:31:56 -0700, the infamous Gunner Asch
scrawled the following:

On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 14:28:18 -0700 (PDT), N Morrison
wrote:

On Aug 30, 5:28*pm, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:

* Don't worry, they can always find _something_ to gig if they are
bound and determined. *Things can be interpreted too many ways.

I remember one inspector who hated a particular electrician - on his
jobs surface mounted items would be rejected as insufficiently
attached, but you could see the pry marks where the inspector had
pried them off the wall!


How long did that inspector remain in traction, and did he ever regain
the ability to walk?

I'd like to see the movie the electrician took to prove his point
about the jerk.


Ive seen an inspector do something similar. Shrug. I told the
electrician about it....and he went bug nuts and kicked the **** out of
the inspector out back of the job site. Evidently they had a feud going
on for a long time..and it came to a head. According to a Deputy buddy
of mine doing court duty......when it came to trial, there was a Very
long list of electricians and other contractors, who showed up to
testify AGAINST the inspector..at which point the charges were dropped,
the inspector was fired and run out of town.. After he had spent a
couple weeks in the hospital...shrug. Bob had beat him like a redheaded
stepchild.

He dinged me for not having a 3 wire transformer running the alarm
system Id just installed. Back in the 80s..there was no such thing, nor
was it advised, let alone required.

Inspectors may..may be a requirement..and they may be treated (some)
like the boogy man..but its because of their problems..not because
"everyone hates inspectors". Most are very very good. Some are
ignorant when something new appears before them. The Good ones work with
the contractor. The bad ones become assholes.


Whenever a Liberal utters the term "Common Sense approach"....grab your
wallet, your ass, and your guns because the sombitch is about to do
something damned nasty to all three of them.

On Tue, 1 Sep 2009 15:45:37 -0700 (PDT), N Morrison
wrote:

On Aug 31, 5:31*pm, Gunner Asch wrote:

How long did that inspector remain in traction, and did he ever regain
the ability to walk?

He and his brother each wired one of the others' jobs and signed for
them. His brother's job was rejected for the first time ever and his
passed for the first time in a long time. They told the chief
inspector about it. He ripped them both a new one - and then fired the
inspector.


Very very well done!! Bravo!!



"First Law of Leftist Debate
The more you present a leftist with factual evidence
that is counter to his preconceived world view and the
more difficult it becomes for him to refute it without
losing face the chance of him calling you a racist, bigot,
homophobe approaches infinity.

This is despite the thread you are in having not mentioned
race or sexual preference in any way that is relevant to
the subject." Grey Ghost