On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:19:50 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 09:50:42 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
Gunner quickly quoth:

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 05:27:00 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

I'd be willing to accept a buck a gallon raise for a decent health
care package. I don't use 100-300 gallons per month. (single)


I use much more than that.

Unfortunately, THAT, sir, is a self-inflicted wound.

Its the cost of doing business.

It's one possible choice, but, hey, I wouldn't want to live in HelL.A.
either. Not a chance.


I dont live there. I just work there.

Gunner

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

What do you think about taking oil/gas under the public utility
umbrella? I like the idea but haven't quite thought it through yet.

It already IS a public utility in that the govt makes more profit thru
taxes than the gas companies.
;(

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 23:54:44 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
Gunner quickly quoth:

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:19:50 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 09:50:42 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
Gunner quickly quoth:

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 05:27:00 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

I'd be willing to accept a buck a gallon raise for a decent health
care package. I don't use 100-300 gallons per month. (single)


I use much more than that.

Unfortunately, THAT, sir, is a self-inflicted wound.

Its the cost of doing business.

It's one possible choice, but, hey, I wouldn't want to live in HelL.A.
either. Not a chance.


I dont live there. I just work there.

Right, that's your lifestyle/business choice, to commute vs. living
there. But with the motorhome down there, why do you still rack up so
much fuel use? (Unless you're driving the van all the time now, in
which case I understand why.)

--
Save the whales! Trade them for valuable prizes.

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 06:14:09 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:



I dont live there. I just work there.

Right, that's your lifestyle/business choice, to commute vs. living
there. But with the motorhome down there, why do you still rack up so
much fuel use? (Unless you're driving the van all the time now, in
which case I understand why.)


Because I drive my truck, at least 100 miles every day. Im a self
employed machine tool repair tech, with a growing clientel of plant
maint/service customers.

They are scattered all over Orange County, LA County, Riverside and
San Bernadino counties, an area I assume you realize is far bigger
than many/most east coast states

The van only comes out for special occasions, where I need the heavy
gear.

Gunner

"cavelamb himself" wrote:
I made up this "international icon" graphic to 'splain the situation.
I thought it would make a great bumper sticker...

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/proof.htm

NIce try, but that is an old image. Actually saw it on a local car earlier
in the week. Same color scheme, too.

Jon

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 09:48:15 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm,
Gunner quickly quoth:

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 06:14:09 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:



I dont live there. I just work there.

Right, that's your lifestyle/business choice, to commute vs. living
there. But with the motorhome down there, why do you still rack up so
much fuel use? (Unless you're driving the van all the time now, in
which case I understand why.)


Because I drive my truck, at least 100 miles every day. Im a self
employed machine tool repair tech, with a growing clientel of plant
maint/service customers.

They are scattered all over Orange County, LA County, Riverside and
San Bernadino counties,

Ah, I didn't realize you had that large an area to cover.


an area I assume you realize is far bigger
than many/most east coast states

That I do, having lived in Vista for 35 years.


The van only comes out for special occasions, where I need the heavy
gear.

Bueno.

--
Save the whales! Trade them for valuable prizes.

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 05:36:20 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 06:31:08 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:


"cavelamb himself" wrote in message
...

I made up this "international icon" graphic to 'splain the situation.
I thought it would make a great bumper sticker...

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/proof.htm

Ha-ha! That stands the famous old Volkwagen ad on its rear -- the one that
showed a cartoon of a guy holding a pump nozzle to his head, with his hand
on the valve lever, committing suicide. g

What do you think about taking oil/gas under the public utility
umbrella? I like the idea but haven't quite thought it through yet.

Public utility? What dat?
Hydro used to be public in Ontario. Ain't no more.
Natural gas used to be public utility in many cities. Only a few still
hanging on.
Even our highways are going into private hands - along with airports,
etc etc.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

In article ,
"Jon Danniken" wrote:

"cavelamb himself" wrote:
I made up this "international icon" graphic to 'splain the situation.
I thought it would make a great bumper sticker...

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/proof.htm

NIce try, but that is an old image. Actually saw it on a local car earlier
in the week. Same color scheme, too.
\
The problem isn't expensive gas but expensive everything - inflation at
work. You need an Icon showing the Fed screwing everyone, they are the
one who create inflation.

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 16:11:40 -0500, nick hull wrote:

In article ,
"Jon Danniken" wrote:

"cavelamb himself" wrote:
I made up this "international icon" graphic to 'splain the situation.
I thought it would make a great bumper sticker...

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/proof.htm

NIce try, but that is an old image. Actually saw it on a local car earlier
in the week. Same color scheme, too.
\
The problem isn't expensive gas but expensive everything - inflation at
work. You need an Icon showing the Fed screwing everyone, they are the
one who create inflation.

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/

It's the US government fighting a war without raising taxes to pay for
it, combined with brainless bankers in an unregulated system giving
huge amounts of money to people with no means of paying it back, and
collecting huge bonuses for "pulling the chain" on the american, and
world, financial system.

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 16:11:40 -0500, nick hull
wrote:

In article ,
"Jon Danniken" wrote:

"cavelamb himself" wrote:
I made up this "international icon" graphic to 'splain the situation.
I thought it would make a great bumper sticker...

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/proof.htm

NIce try, but that is an old image. Actually saw it on a local car earlier
in the week. Same color scheme, too.
\
The problem isn't expensive gas but expensive everything - inflation at
work. You need an Icon showing the Fed screwing everyone, they are the
one who create inflation.

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/
=========

The Administration and Congress have much the greater
responsibility because of the huge increase in the national debt.
The Fed did indeed inject huge amounts of liquidity into the
stock/bond/commodities markets to prevent a disaster [which may
have just delayed it, the ball is still in play...], but in
theory at least, these are "loans" to be paid back, and the money
removed from circulation.

Both the Clinton and Bush administration and the Congress also
have the responsibility for removing time [depression] tested
limitations on the financial markets such as Glass-Steagall, and
for introducing "Industry Friendly" regulations to oversee the
introduction of novel products such derivatives, CDSs, and
"synthetic structured collateralized debt obligations," the
counter-parties and trustees of which all seem to be located in
Aruba, beyond the reach of US regulation or subpena.

Think of "the Fed" as the fire department when your house catches
fire. They come in, spray water everywhere, and perhaps chop
holes in the roof and knock windows out. They do however get the
fire out, although they make a mess in doing so.

In this context, the old adage can be updated to "an ounce of
prevention is worth a ton of cure." Desperate situations demand
desperate remedies, and if you don't like the remedies, avoid the
situation.

The home owner has at least some responsibility here such as
having a working smoke alarm, practicing safe storage of
hazardous materials, keeping their electrical appliances in good
repair, noting hot spots on the wall or hot electrical outlets,
looking for the UL label on electrical items, etc.

Now a question to you -- how many of the incumbents in congress
(that are running for another term) will be re-elected, and why?


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

nick hull wrote:
In article ,
"Jon Danniken" wrote:


"cavelamb himself" wrote:

I made up this "international icon" graphic to 'splain the situation.
I thought it would make a great bumper sticker...

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/proof.htm

NIce try, but that is an old image. Actually saw it on a local car earlier
in the week. Same color scheme, too.

\
The problem isn't expensive gas but expensive everything - inflation at
work. You need an Icon showing the Fed screwing everyone, they are the
one who create inflation.

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/



I think I can do that.
Give me a day or so to find the right graphic.


Richard
--
(remove the X to email)

Now just why the HELL do I have to press 1 for English?
John Wayne

nick hull wrote:


The problem isn't expensive gas but expensive everything - inflation at
work. You need an Icon showing the Fed screwing everyone, they are the
one who create inflation.

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/


Well, that was easier than I expected.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/proof.htm

wrote:
On Apr 9, 5:27 am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Well it looks like we will definitely see $4 dollar gas this summer.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080408/...and;_ylt=Alg4Q...

Any thoughts as to how this will affect us HSMers in the shop?

I already find myself limiting the distance I will drive to view,
purchase and pickup machines and supplies for my shop.

TMT

Wow, $4 a gallon! - thats a really good price, where can I get some? -
here in OZ its $5.30 a gallon,

And your dollar is actually worth something.



--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

On Apr 9, 5:27 am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Well it looks like we will definitely see $4 dollar gas this summer.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080408/...and;_ylt=Alg4Q...

Any thoughts as to how this will affect us HSMers in the shop?

I already find myself limiting the distance I will drive to view,
purchase and pickup machines and supplies for my shop.

TMT

Wow, $4 a gallon! - thats a really good price, where can I get some? -
here in OZ its $5.30 a gallon, and climbing. Predicted to be $5.67 by
end of next week - something to do with the price of crude in
Singapore going up.) Must be those pesky liberals again, making life
difficult for you guys...

(Gunner will respond with "proof" that this is so....)

Andrew VK3BFA.

"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
wrote:
On Apr 9, 5:27 am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Well it looks like we will definitely see $4 dollar gas this summer.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080408/...and;_ylt=Alg4Q...

Any thoughts as to how this will affect us HSMers in the shop?

I already find myself limiting the distance I will drive to view,
purchase and pickup machines and supplies for my shop.

TMT

Wow, $4 a gallon! - thats a really good price, where can I get some? -
here in OZ its $5.30 a gallon,

And your dollar is actually worth something.


....and our gallon is bigger.

--
Jeff R.
(but we don't like to brag)

On Apr 12, 3:11*pm, nick hull wrote:
In article ,
*"Jon Danniken" wrote:

"cavelamb himself" wrote:
I made up this "international icon" graphic to 'splain the situation.
I thought it would make a great bumper sticker...

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/proof.htm

NIce try, but that is an old image. *Actually saw it on a local car earlier
in the week. Same color scheme, too.

\
The problem isn't expensive gas but expensive everything - inflation at
work. *You need an Icon showing the Fed screwing everyone, they are the
one who create inflation.

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/

Expensive fuel causes everything to become more expensive.

I suspect we are at the beginning of a extended period of
hyperinflation.

A repeat of the late 70's?

Wages definitely are not rising.

TMT

On Apr 12, 10:56*pm, wrote:
On Apr 9, 5:27 am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Well it looks like we will definitely see $4 dollar gas this summer.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080408/...and;_ylt=Alg4Q....

Any thoughts as to how this will affect us HSMers in the shop?

I already find myself limiting the distance I will drive to view,
purchase and pickup machines and supplies for my shop.

TMT

Wow, $4 a gallon! - thats a really good price, where can I get some? -
here in OZ *its $5.30 a gallon, and climbing. Predicted to be $5.67 by
end of next week - something to do with the price of crude in
Singapore going up.) *Must be those pesky liberals again, making life
difficult for you guys...

(Gunner will respond with "proof" that this is so....)

Andrew VK3BFA.

LOL...would you be willing to take in some poor Americans?

We will work for food or gas...we can't afford to purchase both.

TMT

On Apr 12, 10:56*pm, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:
wrote:
On Apr 9, 5:27 am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Well it looks like we will definitely see $4 dollar gas this summer.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080408/...and;_ylt=Alg4Q....

Any thoughts as to how this will affect us HSMers in the shop?

I already find myself limiting the distance I will drive to view,
purchase and pickup machines and supplies for my shop.

TMT

Wow, $4 a gallon! - thats a really good price, where can I get some? -
here in OZ *its $5.30 a gallon,

And your dollar is actually worth something.

--

* * * * * *John R. Carroll
*www.machiningsolution.com

Correct.

Under Bush, the American dollar has declined by at least 40%.

If the Democrats had implemented a 40% tax, the conservatives would be
screaming.

The devaluation of the American dollar under this Administration has
caused all American assets held in dollars to tank.

The up side is that all the metal stock I own is worth more.

Why trade gold for food when you can offer something useful...like
brass dropoffs?

TMT

On Apr 12, 3:31 pm, clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote:
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 16:11:40 -0500, nick hull wrote:
In article ,
"Jon Danniken" wrote:

"cavelamb himself" wrote:
I made up this "international icon" graphic to 'splain the situation.
I thought it would make a great bumper sticker...

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/proof.htm

NIce try, but that is an old image. Actually saw it on a local car earlier
in the week. Same color scheme, too.
\
The problem isn't expensive gas but expensive everything - inflation at
work. You need an Icon showing the Fed screwing everyone, they are the
one who create inflation.

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/

It's the US government fighting a war without raising taxes to pay for
it, combined with brainless bankers in an unregulated system giving
huge amounts of money to people with no means of paying it back, and
collecting huge bonuses for "pulling the chain" on the american, and
world, financial system.

** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you wondered how fragile "The System" is, try reading this....

It can happen to any company or anyone.

TMT

Credit card trouble pushed Frontier over By JOHN WILEN, AP Business
Writer
Fri Apr 11, 7:03 PM ET



Frontier Airlines, the latest airline to file for bankruptcy, was
pushed over the brink by a problem that could spread to other
carriers: credit card troubles.

The carrier on Friday blamed its Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection on a
cash squeeze caused by its credit card processing company, which has
decided to keep a larger chunk of the Denver airline's ticket revenue.

The move ends a policy under which the processor, First Data Corp,
passed on most money from ticket sales to Frontier. The change is
intended to protect First Data, which would be on the hook for ticket
refunds if Frontier stops flying. Frontier plans to continue operating
while in bankruptcy.

First Data's decision represents a new threat to an industry facing
jet fuel prices that have soared 74 percent in one year, a new
government focus on safety that has grounded thousands of flights in
recent days and tight competition and falling demand that, combined,
have limited carriers' ability to raise prices.

"It's just a god-awful time for this industry," said Bob Mann, an
independent airline consultant based in Port Washington, N.Y. "This
illustrates the uncertainty of capital markets to a T."

ATA Airlines, Skybus Airlines and Aloha Airlines all have filed for
bankruptcy in recent weeks. Champion Air plans to shut down and MAXjet
Airways went bankrupt in December. All cited some combination of high
fuel prices and falling demand, among other factors.

While it's not uncommon that banks processing airline credit card
transactions hold a certain amount of a carrier's proceeds in their
own accounts until a passenger completes his or her travel, it is
unusual for a processor to suddenly change its cash withholding
policy, analysts say.

In the case of Frontier, the new requirement -- known in industry speak
as a holdback -- was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

"We believe that we currently have adequate cash on hand to meet our
operating needs," Frontier Chief Executive Sean Menke said in a
statement. "Unfortunately, our principal credit card processor very
recently and unexpectedly informed us that, beginning on April 11, it
intended to start withholding significant proceeds received from the
sale of Frontier tickets."

Such a "change in established practices" would throw a serious wrench
into Frontier's cash forecasts and business plan, Menke said. The
bankruptcy filing prevents First Data from imposing the new cash
withholding requirement, he said. The airline also threatened to sue
First Data.

"The terms of our agreement with Frontier Airlines are not unique;
they are considered standard industry practice and terms originally
agreed upon by Frontier," First Data, of Greenwood Village, Colo.,
said in a statement.

"They do this because ... they're concerned that a carrier will use
the proceeds in advance of travel occurring and then not have the
funds to actually perform the travel," Mann said.

Companies such as First Data usually base cash withholding decisions
on their own analysis of an airline's finances -- most airlines are
contractually required to provide their processors with monthly cash
flow reports and forecasts.

"They're doing the same thing that I'm doing," said Ray Neidl, an
analyst at Calyon Securities who late last month expressed concern
about Frontier's projected cash position. Earlier this week, the
carrier said it had no concerns about bankruptcy. Credit card
processors constantly review the credit profiles of the companies they
serve, Neidl said.

But negative news reports and analyst research notes can also
undermine a credit card company's confidence in an airline by
contributing to fears that an airline's failure is imminent, said Mike
Boyd, president of the Boyd Group consultancy in Evergreen, Colo.

"It could happen to any airline," Boyd said.

Shares of another discount carrier, AirTran Holdings Inc., tumbled
more than 30 percent Friday as nervous investors wondered whether it
too could face trouble.

After the market closed, AirTran issued a statement saying it is "in
full compliance" with the terms of its credit card agreements, and has
no holdbacks with any of its major credit card processors. The
Orlando, Fla.-based company said its balance of cash and investments
has grown to $358 million through the end of March, from $326 million
at the end of last year.

President and Chief Executive Bob Fornaro called his company "one of
the strongest low-cost carriers operating today" and said it has
"ample balance sheet strength to support our operation."

Meanwhile, Neidl raised his rating on AirTran to "Add" from "Neutral"
and said he does not believe the company is in any immediate danger of
defaulting.

"We would use this opportunity to buy the stock since we believe
AirTran has sufficient liquidity to survive through next year under
the most likely scenario," Neidl wrote in a note to clients issued
late Friday. The carrier's shares jumped 15 percent in after-hours
trading.

Frontier's situation is not the first time credit card companies have
imposed cash withholding requirements on airlines. Many did so in the
months after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks because of worries about
the industry. Several airlines, in fact, declared bankruptcy in the
years after the attacks, due to the downturn in business and by the
recession earlier this decade. Strict cash withholding requirements
were a factor in Delta Air Lines Inc.'s 2005 bankruptcy.

Now analysts believe most larger airlines have sufficient cash to
weather the current economic downturn and spike in fuel prices. The
six largest airlines -- AMR Corp.'s American Airlines, Delta, UAL
Corp.'s United Airlines, Northwest Airlines Corp., US Airways Group
Inc. and Continental Airlines Inc. -- have a combined $20 billion in
cash on their balance sheets, Mann said. Their credit card processors
won't likely change withholding requirements unless there is a
significant change in operating conditions.

It's the smaller companies with less cash that are more at risk of
facing new cash withholding rules, analysts say.

On Friday, Calyon's Neidl dropped coverage of Mesa Air Group Inc.,
citing its small capitalization. Last week, Mesa said Delta planned to
end a major contract-flying agreement and Mesa sued to keep the deal
intact. Mesa has declined to comment on whether it faces bankruptcy.

Larger carriers canceled thousands of flights affecting more than a
quarter of a million passengers this week to check electrical wiring
in MD-80 aircraft. The inspections were required to comply with
Federal Aviation Administration safety regulations.

American Airlines was the hardest hit with nearly 3,100 cancellations,
including almost 600 on Friday. The airline said it will cancel an
undetermined number of flights on Saturday, but expected to resume
normal operations by Saturday night. The cancellations will cost
American tens of millions of dollars, but Chief Executive Gerard Arpey
said the carrier can withstand the losses.

On Apr 13, 6:21 pm, "Jeff R." wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in .com...



wrote:
On Apr 9, 5:27 am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Well it looks like we will definitely see $4 dollar gas this summer.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080408/...and;_ylt=Alg4Q...

Any thoughts as to how this will affect us HSMers in the shop?

I already find myself limiting the distance I will drive to view,
purchase and pickup machines and supplies for my shop.

TMT

Wow, $4 a gallon! - thats a really good price, where can I get some? -
here in OZ its $5.30 a gallon,

And your dollar is actually worth something.

...and our gallon is bigger.

--
Jeff R.
(but we don't like to brag)

Dunno - I know the American Gallon is "different" - I used 3.78 litres
as an equivalent. Our dollar is worth 90c American - its not getting
worth more, yours is going down against the rest of the world. This is
good for me, I can afford to buy Chinese tools cheaper from the states
than I can here...(go figure THAT one!) - now, if your postage prices
were not so outrageous....(bloody liberals again...)

Andrew VK3BFA.

wrote in message
...
On Apr 13, 6:21 pm, "Jeff R." wrote:
...and our gallon is bigger.

--
Jeff R.
(but we don't like to brag)

Dunno - I know the American Gallon is "different" - I used 3.78 litres
as an equivalent. Our dollar is worth 90c American - its not getting
worth more, yours is going down against the rest of the world. This is
good for me, I can afford to buy Chinese tools cheaper from the states
than I can here...(go figure THAT one!) - now, if your postage prices
were not so outrageous....(bloody liberals again...)

Andrew VK3BFA.

Sorry Andrew - I should have clarified. I'm posting from VK2.

:-)

--
Jeff R.

You may soon have to change this heading to $4.50 gasoline. ;-)

Diesel just hit $4.10 yesterday in may area. .... well $4.099 !

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 21:49:13 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm,
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada quickly quoth:

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 05:36:20 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

What do you think about taking oil/gas under the public utility
umbrella? I like the idea but haven't quite thought it through yet.

Public utility? What dat?
Hydro used to be public in Ontario. Ain't no more.
Natural gas used to be public utility in many cities. Only a few still
hanging on.
Even our highways are going into private hands - along with airports,
etc etc.

How is that working out for y'all?

--
Save the whales! Trade them for valuable prizes.

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 02:53:12 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Apr 13, 6:21 pm, "Jeff R." wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in .com...



wrote:
On Apr 9, 5:27 am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Well it looks like we will definitely see $4 dollar gas this summer.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080408/...and;_ylt=Alg4Q...

Any thoughts as to how this will affect us HSMers in the shop?

I already find myself limiting the distance I will drive to view,
purchase and pickup machines and supplies for my shop.

TMT

Wow, $4 a gallon! - thats a really good price, where can I get some? -
here in OZ its $5.30 a gallon,

And your dollar is actually worth something.

...and our gallon is bigger.

--
Jeff R.
(but we don't like to brag)

Dunno - I know the American Gallon is "different" - I used 3.78 litres
as an equivalent. Our dollar is worth 90c American - its not getting
worth more, yours is going down against the rest of the world. This is
good for me, I can afford to buy Chinese tools cheaper from the states
than I can here...(go figure THAT one!) - now, if your postage prices
were not so outrageous....(bloody liberals again...)

Andrew VK3BFA.

The yankee gallon is a pipsqueak
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Apr 13, 9:32 pm, "Jeff R." wrote:
wrote in message

...

On Apr 13, 6:21 pm, "Jeff R." wrote:
...and our gallon is bigger.

--
Jeff R.
(but we don't like to brag)

Dunno - I know the American Gallon is "different" - I used 3.78 litres
as an equivalent. Our dollar is worth 90c American - its not getting
worth more, yours is going down against the rest of the world. This is
good for me, I can afford to buy Chinese tools cheaper from the states
than I can here...(go figure THAT one!) - now, if your postage prices
were not so outrageous....(bloody liberals again...)

Andrew VK3BFA.

Sorry Andrew - I should have clarified. I'm posting from VK2.

:-)

--
Jeff R.

Well, that was an "oops" moment!. .....petrol here is hovering about
$1.44, will be interesting to see what it gets to on Tuesday, thats
the traditional bottom of the discount cycle. Papers reckon it will
hit $1.50 by the end of next week. (Bugger!) I am relatively lucky,
only do 1 long trip a week to TAFE, (metalworking course) - the rest
of the time, its local short distance stuff. And I can choose when I
go out, so don't waste fuel sitting in traffic jams.....ever had the
thought, crawling down the "freeway" that this is bloody ridiculous -
have the urge to pull into the centre median, get out the portable gas
stove, brew up a cup of tea. Stick a sign out, saying "why are you
doing this - stop for a cuppa - stop being a lab rat. " - if enough
people did it, then, maybe, it would be recognised as a bloody silly
way of moving people about - all at the same time - endless oceans of
cars, usually with one person in them, stretching into the distance,
moving at less than walking pace.....

Andrew VK3BFA.

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 05:33:50 -0700, the renowned Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 21:49:13 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm,
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada quickly quoth:

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 05:36:20 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

What do you think about taking oil/gas under the public utility
umbrella? I like the idea but haven't quite thought it through yet.

Public utility? What dat?
Hydro used to be public in Ontario. Ain't no more.
Natural gas used to be public utility in many cities. Only a few still
hanging on.
Even our highways are going into private hands - along with airports,
etc etc.

How is that working out for y'all?

All the private sector competition is resulting in higher prices, more
user fees, and taxes only increasing slowly ('till they have spent all
the proceeds from selling off publically owned assets, of course)


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

nick hull wrote in news:nhull-D1F580.16114012042008
@dialupusa.usenetserver.com:

You need an Icon showing the Fed screwing everyone, they are the
one who create inflation.


Would an acronym do?

An old friend has invented a new one for describing the impact of
new/revised government regulations: BOHICA.

BOHICA stands for Bend Over - Here It Comes Again!

snip
On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 02:00:06 -0700 (PDT), Too_Many_Tools
wrote:

If you wondered how fragile "The System" is, try reading this....

It can happen to any company or anyone.

TMT

Credit card trouble pushed Frontier over By JOHN WILEN, AP Business
Writer
Fri Apr 11, 7:03 PM ET

Frontier Airlines, the latest airline to file for bankruptcy, was
pushed over the brink by a problem that could spread to other
carriers: credit card troubles.
snip
The move ends a policy under which the processor, First Data Corp,
passed on most money from ticket sales to Frontier. The change is
intended to protect First Data, which would be on the hook for ticket
refunds if Frontier stops flying. ==Frontier plans to continue operating
while in bankruptcy.== {Emphasis added.}
================
This is yet another way the provident, solvent and thrifty take
it in the shorts.

Why should Frontier keep flying? The only thing they will do is
squeeze the hourly employees harder and minimize
maintenance/cleaning, after getting huge "debtor in possession"
loans at extortion rates.

This is the second bankruptch for Frontier
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontie...nes_(1950-1986)
On October 24, 1986, Continental Airlines, a Texas Air unit,
bought both People Express and Frontier Airlines. They were
merged into Continental on February 1, 1987 along with New York
Air and all other Continental airline subsidiaries. Frontier's
failure also doomed People Express, New York Air and four
commuter carriers. It would take years to settle the pension
disputes and lawsuits. Efforts were still being made in 2007 to
settle ESOP accounts.

history
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier_Airlines
On April 10, 2008, Frontier announced that it filed for Chapter
11 bankruptcy due to its credit card processor, First Data,
attempting to withhold significant proceeds from ticket sales.
First Data suddenly decided that it would withhold 100% of the
carriers proceeds from ticket sales beginning May 1st.[2]
According to Frontier's press release, "This change in practice
would have represented a material change to our cash forecasts
and business plan. Unchecked, it would have put severe restraints
on Frontier's liquidity..." Its operation continues
uninterrupted, though, as Chapter 11 bankruptcy protects the
corporation's assets and allows restructuring to ensure long-term
viability.

This sounds like a classic mob "squeeze play." In another thread
someone suggested that the credit card executives would be up
before congress explaining/justifying their role in the credit
debacle. This action by First Data may well be what starts that
particular ball rolling. 100% holdback????


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 05:33:50 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 21:49:13 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm,
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada quickly quoth:

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 05:36:20 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

What do you think about taking oil/gas under the public utility
umbrella? I like the idea but haven't quite thought it through yet.

Public utility? What dat?
Hydro used to be public in Ontario. Ain't no more.
Natural gas used to be public utility in many cities. Only a few still
hanging on.
Even our highways are going into private hands - along with airports,
etc etc.

How is that working out for y'all?
Not well.
Deregulated electricity and gas gets all the swindlers into high
gear.
The
privatized highways (electronic toll) are billing vehicles that have
never been on them, and if your tolls are unpaid you can't get your
tags renewed. If you have a transponder the rates are reasonable. If
you don't you get hit with a no-transponder fee that makes occaisional
use expensive.
The government isn't putting enough of our fuel taxes back into road
infrastructure maintenance and repairs.

At least they had enough brains not to allow our aerospace expertise
(developed at taxpayers expense) to be given away to the americans.
Second time in 50 years we stood to loose it all under a conservative
government - this time they had the balls to say NO to the USA. Canada
and the world lost the AVRO ARROW in 1958, and with that loss , the
vast majority of Canada's not inconsequential aerospace expertise.

All because the USA could not allow Canada to be or be seen as having
something better than the US.

Now the USA wanted RadarSat and full controll over the CanadArm and
it's new little brother space manipulator.
We will not be held to the role of "Hewers of wood and haulers of
water"

Not this time, anyway.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Too_Many_Tools wrote in news:1527e5cd-f350-40f7-
:

Expensive fuel causes everything to become more expensive.


You can thank the various governments (state & federal) for keeping it as
low as it has been for the past half-century. After all, they COULD have
imposed the high taxes that are common in Europe.

I suspect we are at the beginning of a extended period of
hyperinflation.

A repeat of the late 70's?

Closer to the early '80s when the question "How do the folks in Detroit get
15 adults into a VW Beetle?" was answered by "Easy - tell them it's headed
to Texas!"


Wages definitely are not rising.

Wages in many fields/areas were already hyperinflated.

This is/was the cause of much of the "Outsourcing" and the "Offshore
Relocation" mania of the last 2 decades that saw Union jobs replaced by
non-Union jobs.

When burger-flippers expect $10+ /hr. to ask "Do you want fries with
that?" you should already know that the economy is in a World of Hurt.

When Illegal Immigrants earn enough money to buy mid-range homes you should
already know that the economy is in a World of Hurt.

When Welfare pays better than working you should already know that the
economy is in a World of Hurt.

When the Democrat Party was bought by the Peoples' Republic of China over a
decade ago you should expected that the economy would be in a World of Hurt
as the US Standard of Living was brought down to PRC levels.

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
...
On Apr 12, 3:31 pm, clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada wrote:
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 16:11:40 -0500, nick hull wrote:
In article ,
"Jon Danniken" wrote:

"cavelamb himself" wrote:
I made up this "international icon" graphic to 'splain the
situation.
I thought it would make a great bumper sticker...

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/proof.htm

NIce try, but that is an old image. Actually saw it on a local car
earlier
in the week. Same color scheme, too.
\
The problem isn't expensive gas but expensive everything - inflation at
work. You need an Icon showing the Fed screwing everyone, they are the
one who create inflation.

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/

It's the US government fighting a war without raising taxes to pay for
it, combined with brainless bankers in an unregulated system giving
huge amounts of money to people with no means of paying it back, and
collecting huge bonuses for "pulling the chain" on the american, and
world, financial system.

** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you wondered how fragile "The System" is, try reading this....

It can happen to any company or anyone.

TMT

Credit card trouble pushed Frontier over By JOHN WILEN, AP Business
Writer
Fri Apr 11, 7:03 PM ET

It's easy to misinterpret the airline situation. The simple fact is that
there were too many airlines to begin with. The credit-card situation they
face actually is the result of a consumer *protection*, not a vulnerability.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 02:53:12 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Apr 13, 6:21 pm, "Jeff R." wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in .com...



wrote:
On Apr 9, 5:27 am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Well it looks like we will definitely see $4 dollar gas this summer.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080408/...and;_ylt=Alg4Q...

Any thoughts as to how this will affect us HSMers in the shop?

I already find myself limiting the distance I will drive to view,
purchase and pickup machines and supplies for my shop.

TMT

Wow, $4 a gallon! - thats a really good price, where can I get some? -
here in OZ its $5.30 a gallon,

And your dollar is actually worth something.

...and our gallon is bigger.

--
Jeff R.
(but we don't like to brag)

Dunno - I know the American Gallon is "different" - I used 3.78 litres
as an equivalent. Our dollar is worth 90c American - its not getting
worth more, yours is going down against the rest of the world. This is
good for me, I can afford to buy Chinese tools cheaper from the states
than I can here...(go figure THAT one!) - now, if your postage prices
were not so outrageous....(bloody liberals again...)

Andrew VK3BFA.
========
Problem is that you are comparing pump price to pump price. I
don't know the situation "down under," but the actual price of
gasoline and diesel is now around 10$US per gallon when the oil
company tax credits, tax exemptions, tax increment financing
districts, free oil from under federal land, stolen oil [pumped
but not paid for] from Indian reservations, etc.. One
particularly glaring example of this was when Saudi Arabia
decided to impose higher royalties on exported oil. The oil
companies got the Saudis to call it a tax, which by US/SAUDI
treaty could be deducted from the oil company US taxes.

It goes even higher when the lost tax revenues from transfer
pricing are included, which must be made up by either borrowing
or increased individual taxes.

The price climbs even more when the war costs are included, not
only for combat but the damage done to the trust and cooperation
of the people of the mid-east for the United States.

If we expect the "free market" to work, accurate and timely
information must be available to the consumers. Charging the
actual 10 or 12 $US per gallon at the pump while eliminating the
oil company tax dodges and "cost externalization", would indeed
cause massive economic dislocation in the short run, but would
result in rational lifestyle decisions about alternative energy,
high mileage vehicles [i.e. no more Hummers], no more urban
sprawl w/2 to 3 hour commutes, far few giant box stores, etc.

This has no chance of occurring until total "melt down" occurs.
The Romans got "bread and circuses," the US gets gasoline and
professional sports.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 21:33:48 -0500, cavelamb himself
wrote:

nick hull wrote:


The problem isn't expensive gas but expensive everything - inflation at
work. You need an Icon showing the Fed screwing everyone, they are the
one who create inflation.

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/


Well, that was easier than I expected.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/proof.htm


I wonder about the occurance that generated that photo.
Kudos to Pres. Bush

Gunner


"[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so
would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their
methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining
power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The
problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group,
they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of
wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some
want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second
Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting
rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and
complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture
that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political
correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the
competing factions of Islamic
fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join
forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core,
and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr

On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 21:56:59 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Apr 9, 5:27 am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Well it looks like we will definitely see $4 dollar gas this summer.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080408/...and;_ylt=Alg4Q...

Any thoughts as to how this will affect us HSMers in the shop?

I already find myself limiting the distance I will drive to view,
purchase and pickup machines and supplies for my shop.

TMT

Wow, $4 a gallon! - thats a really good price, where can I get some? -
here in OZ its $5.30 a gallon, and climbing. Predicted to be $5.67 by
end of next week - something to do with the price of crude in
Singapore going up.) Must be those pesky liberals again, making life
difficult for you guys...

(Gunner will respond with "proof" that this is so....)

Andrew VK3BFA.


Lefties will of course blame this on Bush.

Gunner


"[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so
would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their
methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining
power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The
problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group,
they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of
wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some
want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second
Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting
rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and
complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture
that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political
correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the
competing factions of Islamic
fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join
forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core,
and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 21:33:48 -0500, cavelamb himself
wrote:


nick hull wrote:


The problem isn't expensive gas but expensive everything - inflation at
work. You need an Icon showing the Fed screwing everyone, they are the
one who create inflation.

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/


Well, that was easier than I expected.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cavelamb/proof.htm



I wonder about the occurance that generated that photo.
Kudos to Pres. Bush

Gunner


Me too.
I'm guessing it HAD to be the press.

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 16:12:20 GMT, Eregon wrote:

Too_Many_Tools wrote in news:1527e5cd-f350-40f7-
:

Expensive fuel causes everything to become more expensive.


You can thank the various governments (state & federal) for keeping it as
low as it has been for the past half-century. After all, they COULD have
imposed the high taxes that are common in Europe.

I suspect we are at the beginning of a extended period of
hyperinflation.

A repeat of the late 70's?

Closer to the early '80s when the question "How do the folks in Detroit get
15 adults into a VW Beetle?" was answered by "Easy - tell them it's headed
to Texas!"


Wages definitely are not rising.

Wages in many fields/areas were already hyperinflated.

This is/was the cause of much of the "Outsourcing" and the "Offshore
Relocation" mania of the last 2 decades that saw Union jobs replaced by
non-Union jobs.

When burger-flippers expect $10+ /hr. to ask "Do you want fries with
that?" you should already know that the economy is in a World of Hurt.

When Illegal Immigrants earn enough money to buy mid-range homes you should
already know that the economy is in a World of Hurt.

When Welfare pays better than working you should already know that the
economy is in a World of Hurt.

When the Democrat Party was bought by the Peoples' Republic of China over a
decade ago you should expected that the economy would be in a World of Hurt
as the US Standard of Living was brought down to PRC levels.


Well said

Gunner


"[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so
would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their
methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining
power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The
problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group,
they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of
wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some
want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second
Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting
rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and
complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture
that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political
correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the
competing factions of Islamic
fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join
forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core,
and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 16:12:20 GMT, Eregon wrote:

Too_Many_Tools wrote in news:1527e5cd-f350-40f7-
:

Expensive fuel causes everything to become more expensive.


You can thank the various governments (state & federal) for keeping it as
low as it has been for the past half-century. After all, they COULD have
imposed the high taxes that are common in Europe.

I suspect we are at the beginning of a extended period of
hyperinflation.

A repeat of the late 70's?

Closer to the early '80s when the question "How do the folks in Detroit get
15 adults into a VW Beetle?" was answered by "Easy - tell them it's headed
to Texas!"


Wages definitely are not rising.

Wages in many fields/areas were already hyperinflated.

This is/was the cause of much of the "Outsourcing" and the "Offshore
Relocation" mania of the last 2 decades that saw Union jobs replaced by
non-Union jobs.

When burger-flippers expect $10+ /hr. to ask "Do you want fries with
that?" you should already know that the economy is in a World of Hurt.

When Illegal Immigrants earn enough money to buy mid-range homes you should
already know that the economy is in a World of Hurt.

When Welfare pays better than working you should already know that the
economy is in a World of Hurt.

When the Democrat Party was bought by the Peoples' Republic of China over a
decade ago you should expected that the economy would be in a World of Hurt
as the US Standard of Living was brought down to PRC levels.

And when CEOs make billions for loosing 10s of billions of dollars you
KNOW the economy is in a HUGE world of hope.
When CEOs start to settle for a reasonable level of pay companies can
afford to manufacture things here again, and workers can work for an
"honest" wage, and not see the extreme difference between what they
earn PRODUCING and what CEOs earn screwing things up.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Apr 14, 4:29 am, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 21:56:59 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Apr 9, 5:27 am, Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Well it looks like we will definitely see $4 dollar gas this summer.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080408/...and;_ylt=Alg4Q...

Any thoughts as to how this will affect us HSMers in the shop?

I already find myself limiting the distance I will drive to view,
purchase and pickup machines and supplies for my shop.

TMT

Wow, $4 a gallon! - thats a really good price, where can I get some? -
here in OZ its $5.30 a gallon, and climbing. Predicted to be $5.67 by
end of next week - something to do with the price of crude in
Singapore going up.) Must be those pesky liberals again, making life
difficult for you guys...

(Gunner will respond with "proof" that this is so....)

Andrew VK3BFA.

Lefties will of course blame this on Bush.

Gunner


That would be far too simplistic Gunner - comforting, yes, but
accurate - no. He is just one silly person , the nominal head of a
whole system that has the planet drowning in its own garbage.
Replacing Mr Bush with "someone else" would make no difference.

But if you feel comfortable blaming left or right, thats fine -
nothing said here can change your mind in any way beyond reinforcing
lifelong beliefs.

Interestingly enough, the younger people are increasingly blaming our
generation for the mess the world is in. They don't get bogged down in
dinosaur politics - its irrelevant to them - they just damn us all! -
as long as we can find a convenient left/right scapegoat to absolve us
from actually taking any real responsibility at a personal level, they
may well be right.

Andrew VK3bFA.

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 10:32:38 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm,
Spehro Pefhany quickly quoth:

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 05:33:50 -0700, the renowned Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 21:49:13 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm,
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada quickly quoth:

On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 05:36:20 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

What do you think about taking oil/gas under the public utility
umbrella? I like the idea but haven't quite thought it through yet.

Public utility? What dat?
Hydro used to be public in Ontario. Ain't no more.
Natural gas used to be public utility in many cities. Only a few still
hanging on.
Even our highways are going into private hands - along with airports,
etc etc.

How is that working out for y'all?

All the private sector competition is resulting in higher prices, more
user fees, and taxes only increasing slowly ('till they have spent all
the proceeds from selling off publically owned assets, of course)

Since when does competition increase prices?!?

--
Save the whales! Trade them for valuable prizes.

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 11:56:54 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm,
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada quickly quoth:

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 05:33:50 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 21:49:13 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm,
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada quickly quoth:

Even our highways are going into private hands - along with airports,
etc etc.

How is that working out for y'all?
Not well.
Deregulated electricity and gas gets all the swindlers into high
gear.
The
privatized highways (electronic toll) are billing vehicles that have
never been on them, and if your tolls are unpaid you can't get your
tags renewed. If you have a transponder the rates are reasonable. If
you don't you get hit with a no-transponder fee that makes occaisional
use expensive.

That sucks, bigtime.


The government isn't putting enough of our fuel taxes back into road
infrastructure maintenance and repairs.

Ditto here. I was on Pennsyltucky's tollways in '98 and they're even
worse, with much higher tolls.


At least they had enough brains not to allow our aerospace expertise
(developed at taxpayers expense) to be given away to the americans.
Second time in 50 years we stood to loose it all under a conservative
government - this time they had the balls to say NO to the USA. Canada
and the world lost the AVRO ARROW in 1958, and with that loss , the
vast majority of Canada's not inconsequential aerospace expertise.

All because the USA could not allow Canada to be or be seen as having
something better than the US.

Now the USA wanted RadarSat and full controll over the CanadArm and
it's new little brother space manipulator.

Well, good for them.


We will not be held to the role of "Hewers of wood and haulers of
water"

Not this time, anyway.

Bbbbut, you're all lumberjacks (and you're OK), aren't you?

--
Save the whales! Trade them for valuable prizes.