Too_Many_Tools wrote:

And it precludes anyone who wants to buy your home in the future from
having a hardwired line....very bad...I won't be buying your house.


Who cares if you want, or don't want to buy a particular house?
Sooner or later the copper is coming out of all high density residential
areas. It was in the planning stages in the early '80s, and as the ROI
has improved, it is now being implemented. If FIOS is available in your
area, it will be the only service available at some time in the future.

What house will you buy then, or do you plan on living in a cardboard
box?


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 02:59:58 GMT, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

And it precludes anyone who wants to buy your home in the future from
having a hardwired line....very bad...I won't be buying your house.

Who cares if you want, or don't want to buy a particular house?
Sooner or later the copper is coming out of all high density residential
areas. It was in the planning stages in the early '80s, and as the ROI
has improved, it is now being implemented. If FIOS is available in your
area, it will be the only service available at some time in the future.

What house will you buy then, or do you plan on living in a cardboard
box?

Thanks for the warning - if they ever try this on us, I get it in
writing that they leave us one line coming in on good old Copper, and
going straight back to the C.O. with no pair gain in the middle that
doesn't have permanently installed generator backup.

I don't care how high-tech they want to be, you NEED at least one
Copper POTS pair to your residence to get the 99.999% reliability
needed for the burglar alarm dialer, and for emergency calls.

There's no way in hell that they can match the 99.999% reliability
with any sort of pair-gain or FiOS schemes - too many remote equipment
points that only have batteries good for a few hours.

The local phone companies don't own enough portable generators to
power up all the affected boxes in any widespread emergency - they'll
be lucky to keep the Central Offices and larger Remote Switching Units
up, anything that affects less than a few hundred customers simply
won't rank high enough.

The generators they have will take days to deploy - some of them
they'll have to park generator equipped trucks there instead. And
then they won't have the personnel to run around refueling them
daily...

-- Bruce --

On Jul 24, 9:59 pm, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:

And it precludes anyone who wants to buy your home in the future from
having a hardwired line....very bad...I won't be buying your house.

Who cares if you want, or don't want to buy a particular house?
Sooner or later the copper is coming out of all high density residential
areas. It was in the planning stages in the early '80s, and as the ROI
has improved, it is now being implemented. If FIOS is available in your
area, it will be the only service available at some time in the future.

What house will you buy then, or do you plan on living in a cardboard
box?

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

LOL...it will matter if it is your house Michael...and I am not the
only buyer who will care.

Haven't you heard....they are predicting the house bust to go till
2009.

I am one for RELIABLE communications. As Jon just pointed out, that
copper line you think is worthless is still the most reliable
communication link you have to your home....more reliable than cell or
fiber. If you haven't figured it out, the companies are shifting the
cost of keeping your fiber powered to you...so how many UPSs are you
buying to keep running when the power goes out? How about the folks on
the other end of the fiber? Now start considering what this means to
you if you have an alarm system that calls out? And have you been
following the 911 scam where companies can't tell where your emergency
call is coming from with cell or Internet phone?

And for what it is worth Michael, I will never live in a high
population density neighborhood if I can help it....far too many
disadvantages for what few advantages one gets from living there.

TMT

On Jul 25, 5:37 am, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:


Thanks for the warning - if they ever try this on us, I get it in
writing that they leave us one line coming in on good old Copper, and
going straight back to the C.O. with no pair gain in the middle that
doesn't have permanently installed generator backup.


-- Bruce --

It may already be too late. The local phone company uses fiber from
the central office to a substation about six miles from the CO. The
connections to the houses are the same copper that they were. This
allows the phone company to sell DSL to the customers that were too
far away from the CO.

So although Too Many Tools may still live in a rural area for a long
time, the chances are that he won't have copper back to the central
office for a long time.

For reliable communications, get a ham license.

Dan

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

Thanks for the warning - if they ever try this on us, I get it in
writing that they leave us one line coming in on good old Copper, and
going straight back to the C.O. with no pair gain in the middle that
doesn't have permanently installed generator backup.

You might get them to agree to leave the
copper in to the curb, but probably not to the
central office. A dirty little secret is
that some central offices don't have enough
copper to some neighborhoods to leave unused
lines connected.

My neighborhood connects to the CO through
some sort of a mux a couple blocks from my
house. Not only is a "dry pair" to the CO
not available, dialup modems can't go faster
than about 22k baud through the mux.

On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 11:12:49 -0700, Jim Stewart
wrote:

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

Thanks for the warning - if they ever try this on us, I get it in
writing that they leave us one line coming in on good old Copper, and
going straight back to the C.O. with no pair gain in the middle that
doesn't have permanently installed generator backup.

You might get them to agree to leave the
copper in to the curb, but probably not to the
central office. A dirty little secret is
that some central offices don't have enough
copper to some neighborhoods to leave unused
lines connected.

My neighborhood connects to the CO through
some sort of a mux a couple blocks from my
house. Not only is a "dry pair" to the CO
not available, dialup modems can't go faster
than about 22k baud through the mux.

Hook your FAX machine to that line, and when the faxes start failing
to go through you can scream bloody murder about it, and get some real
results. They'll either find you some copper back to the CO, or
connect you with an /integrated/ pair-gain that doesn't do multiple
conversions and goes to a digital port on the CO Switch.

That's the only thing that will get the State PUC on your side of a
service complaint. The Telco could care less about your data
connection speeds, since they want to sell you DSL or ISDN and make
more money (or a Fractional or Full T-1/DS1 line and make Lots Of
Money) - but a FAX machine is expected to work on any decent phone
line. And it won't work if you are on pair-gain or have more than one
A-D - D-A conversion between the two ends of the call.

If they add an A-D at the pair-gain in the field and a D-A at the
switchroom end of the pair-gain before the A-D into the digital phone
network switching equipment, or they try to cheap out on the pair-gain
equipment with too low a bit-rate (restricted audio bandwidth) on the
backhaul, that will kill both data and FAX.

Gee, I guess my time spent splicing *copper* and *lead* phone cables
and installing the *steel* switchroom structure, *lead* storage
batteries and *copper* -48V power busbars counts as 'metalworking', if
you close one eye and squint... ;-)

-- Bruce --

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

LOL...it will matter if it is your house Michael...and I am not the
only buyer who will care.


If no houses in the area still have copper, it will become a non
issue. When the number of active customers drop below a certain point,
that service will be discontinued. Some people didn't want to give up
their old hand crank telephones for rotary dial service, but they had no
choice, did they? The phone companies saved a fortune by eliminating
the operators, and delivering a phone book once in a while.


Haven't you heard....they are predicting the house bust to go till
2009.


Really? That's news to me. I didn't know that my house was for
sale. It sounds like another non issue. I don't plan to move, till I
drop dead, or end up in a nursing home.



I am one for RELIABLE communications. As Jon just pointed out, that
copper line you think is worthless


Where did I say it was worthless?


is still the most reliable
communication link you have to your home....more reliable than cell or
fiber.


I don't have cellular service, and I'm still using buried copper for
about .75 miles where it turns into fiber. Most copper is long gone in
Central Florida, because of lightning damage. A recent storm had a
little over 33,100 lightning strikes as it passed across the state. It
damages copper, but not fiber.


If you haven't figured it out, the companies are shifting the
cost of keeping your fiber powered to you...so how many UPSs are you
buying to keep running when the power goes out?


BUY a UPS? Are you crazy? I have almost 20 good free ones in
storage. They are all over the place, and I can get them any time I
want them.


How about the folks on
the other end of the fiber? Now start considering what this means to
you if you have an alarm system that calls out?


My alarm company is run by a couple old gentlemen named Smith and
Wesson. They don't make calls.


And have you been
following the 911 scam where companies can't tell where your emergency
call is coming from with cell or Internet phone?


That's because people don't read the fine print, and give the proper
information. There is no excuse for something you don't do for
yourself.


And for what it is worth Michael, I will never live in a high
population density neighborhood if I can help it....far too many
disadvantages for what few advantages one gets from living there.


I live in an 40+ year old subdivision. I'm the last house on the
last road, with no houses behind me or to the one side. The Florida
Green belt runs right behind me, and there is a long term ban on new
construction, because of its ability to adsorb lots of stormwater. The
last places was 20+ acres of frozen out orange grove. I'm about three
miles from a small town, eight miles form a mall, and ten from a medium
sized city.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote:

Thanks for the warning - if they ever try this on us, I get it in
writing that they leave us one line coming in on good old Copper, and
going straight back to the C.O. with no pair gain in the middle that
doesn't have permanently installed generator backup.


Good luck! They will stop maintaining the old copper where fiber is
available at some point in time, and you'll have no choice but to
switch when it becomes unusable. As far as the guaranteed speed, it
only has to apply to ONE type of service, which will be the new
technology.

Do you think that wen they went from separate wires on separate
insulators for each pair, (and phantom circuits) that you could demand
that they leave a pair up and maintain it, just for you?

How about when they switched from lead jacketed (and paper) aerial
cable to flooded direct burial wiring plant?

They will do what they want to do unless you buy the company, and
freeze its technology in time. Even that won't last long, as supplies of
spares run out.

I was told that Embarq (Sprint) is trying to buy up more of their
competition. If you remember, they were the ones that started the
transition to fiber instead of Microwave relay towers for long distance,
and to reduce the installation costs to isolated areas. Not only does
it reduce their repair costs, but the amount of equipment in a CO sub
office. The local exchange has about 25,000 numbers, and is about the
size of a two car garage. That is connected by fiber to large pedestals
around the area, which serve a thousand or so lines. Their inter CO
backbone is all fiber, as well. That was switched from copper to fiber,
starting in 1990.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
My alarm company is run by a couple old gentlemen named Smith and
Wesson. They don't make calls.

Can't get DSL where I am, because of all the old copper _in_the_air_ for the
1.6 miles to the local RT.

I live in Central Florida, too. And we lose a modem or phone at least twice
a year, from forgetting to unplug them when a storm comes up. (and no,
surge suppressors won't handle it... we just have to replace that along with
the modem, computer, or phone).

But the S&W thing brought up an off-thread comment:

I just bought my wife a new S&W 637 Airweight 38spl. I've always steered
away from the alloy models just because they didn't "feel right", and I hate
the dinky 1-7/8" barrels. But Maw wanted a "purse-sized" gun, and she
doesn't like those cheezy resin-body automatics any more than I do. Gimme
ARN in my hand!

So, down to the store for the model 637. Oh... she really _liked_ the $200
Crimson View laser grip, too.

But, know what? It's a _sweet_ little weapon! She was marking paper with
it at 10 yards in about 15 shots (with iron sights... I won't let her use
the laser, 'cause it might not work in combat). And she's never shot
anything shorter than a 4" barrel before.

If you need a "sock gun", it's worth a look.

LLoyd

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 11:45:46 -0400, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
wrote:


"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
My alarm company is run by a couple old gentlemen named Smith and
Wesson. They don't make calls.

Can't get DSL where I am, because of all the old copper _in_the_air_ for the
1.6 miles to the local RT.

I live in Central Florida, too. And we lose a modem or phone at least twice
a year, from forgetting to unplug them when a storm comes up. (and no,
surge suppressors won't handle it... we just have to replace that along with
the modem, computer, or phone).

But the S&W thing brought up an off-thread comment:

I just bought my wife a new S&W 637 Airweight 38spl. I've always steered
away from the alloy models just because they didn't "feel right", and I hate
the dinky 1-7/8" barrels. But Maw wanted a "purse-sized" gun, and she
doesn't like those cheezy resin-body automatics any more than I do. Gimme
ARN in my hand!

So, down to the store for the model 637. Oh... she really _liked_ the $200
Crimson View laser grip, too.

But, know what? It's a _sweet_ little weapon! She was marking paper with
it at 10 yards in about 15 shots (with iron sights... I won't let her use
the laser, 'cause it might not work in combat). And she's never shot
anything shorter than a 4" barrel before.

If you need a "sock gun", it's worth a look.

LLoyd

Hit the gun shows and snag all the Federal Nyclad 125gr Hollow Point
you can find

Stuff was made for reliable expansion out of a snubby (and proven by
my own ballistics testing) and isnt hard on the shooter or the weapon.

Federal discontinued it a couple years ago due to most shooters going
to self loaders, but its all I carry in the Detective Special.
Good **** Maynard!

Gunner

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 11:45:46 -0400, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
wrote:


"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
My alarm company is run by a couple old gentlemen named Smith and
Wesson. They don't make calls.

Can't get DSL where I am, because of all the old copper _in_the_air_ for the
1.6 miles to the local RT.

I live in Central Florida, too. And we lose a modem or phone at least twice
a year, from forgetting to unplug them when a storm comes up. (and no,
surge suppressors won't handle it... we just have to replace that along with
the modem, computer, or phone).

Surge suppressors will handle it, but not the wimpy ones you get at
Best Buy or Radio Shack. In Florida you need big MOV's like this:
http://www.epcos.com/inf/70/ds/LS41K.pdf

A bunch of electronic traffic controllers I designed were put into
service in Dade Country some years ago. Nothing short of a direct
hit bothered them. The only failures we saw, a couple a year or so,
were cremated inside the cabinet -- we're talking total crispy critter
and molten metal.

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 11:45:46 -0400, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
wrote:


"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
My alarm company is run by a couple old gentlemen named Smith and
Wesson. They don't make calls.

Can't get DSL where I am, because of all the old copper _in_the_air_ for the
1.6 miles to the local RT.

I live in Central Florida, too. And we lose a modem or phone at least twice
a year, from forgetting to unplug them when a storm comes up. (and no,
surge suppressors won't handle it... we just have to replace that along with
the modem, computer, or phone).

But the S&W thing brought up an off-thread comment:

I just bought my wife a new S&W 637 Airweight 38spl. I've always steered
away from the alloy models just because they didn't "feel right", and I hate
the dinky 1-7/8" barrels. But Maw wanted a "purse-sized" gun, and she
doesn't like those cheezy resin-body automatics any more than I do. Gimme
ARN in my hand!

So, down to the store for the model 637. Oh... she really _liked_ the $200
Crimson View laser grip, too.

But, know what? It's a _sweet_ little weapon! She was marking paper with
it at 10 yards in about 15 shots (with iron sights... I won't let her use
the laser, 'cause it might not work in combat). And she's never shot
anything shorter than a 4" barrel before.

If you need a "sock gun", it's worth a look.

LLoyd

Ladies do seem to like revolvers. Another nice thing about them is
that you can make "powderpuff" loads for comfy practice. 2.8 grains
of W231 behind a 148 gn .38 SWC bullet punches paper just fine at
about 626 fps, milady can shoot those all day without feeling beat up.

My personal non-expert humble opinion is that the CT laser is a good
thing, because the shooter can then practice "pointing" rather than
aiming with sights. After a while (few hundred rounds) she won't
need the laser anymore as pointing becomes muscle-memory instinctive,
and she wouldn't see the sights anyway in a real ****sit.

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:

I just bought my wife a new S&W 637 Airweight 38spl. I've always steered
away from the alloy models just because they didn't "feel right", and I hate
the dinky 1-7/8" barrels. But Maw wanted a "purse-sized" gun, and she
doesn't like those cheezy resin-body automatics any more than I do. Gimme
ARN in my hand!

So, down to the store for the model 637. Oh... she really _liked_ the $200
Crimson View laser grip, too.


But, know what? It's a _sweet_ little weapon! She was marking paper with
it at 10 yards in about 15 shots (with iron sights... I won't let her use
the laser, 'cause it might not work in combat). And she's never shot
anything shorter than a 4" barrel before.

Lloyd you really married well there.

A little point shooting practice at 7 feet or so would be a good idea also.
That is the real world distance your lovely wife might need to use it at.

My favorite handgun is my Security Six target model. Short of a squib that
ties up the cylinder, I'll take the revolver for the first 5 to 8 rounds
depending on model every time.

Wes

In article ,
Don Foreman wrote:

I live in Central Florida, too. And we lose a modem or phone at least twice
a year, from forgetting to unplug them when a storm comes up. (and no,
surge suppressors won't handle it... we just have to replace that along with
the modem, computer, or phone).

Surge suppressors will handle it, but not the wimpy ones you get at
Best Buy or Radio Shack. In Florida you need big MOV's like this:
http://www.epcos.com/inf/70/ds/LS41K.pdf

Those Radio shack supressors WILL handle it, but not in 1 stage.
I use a multi-stage filter using RS 110vac MOVs, with small
chokes between stages. I haven't lost anything in over 10 years,
but I lost a lot before I installed the multi-stage filters.

Call the phone company. They might install (did years before elsewhere)
gas and MOV and choke isolations. We had them on all 75/150/300 WPM lines in
the other days of communication. Tis stuff hurts them as well - it breaks
down the insulation on bundles of wire - then water seeps in - and opens it up.

Might be worth the phone call.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Life; NRA LOH & Endowment Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Nick Hull wrote:
In article ,
Don Foreman wrote:

I live in Central Florida, too. And we lose a modem or phone at least twice
a year, from forgetting to unplug them when a storm comes up. (and no,
surge suppressors won't handle it... we just have to replace that along with
the modem, computer, or phone).
Surge suppressors will handle it, but not the wimpy ones you get at
Best Buy or Radio Shack. In Florida you need big MOV's like this:
http://www.epcos.com/inf/70/ds/LS41K.pdf

Those Radio shack supressors WILL handle it, but not in 1 stage.
I use a multi-stage filter using RS 110vac MOVs, with small
chokes between stages. I haven't lost anything in over 10 years,
but I lost a lot before I installed the multi-stage filters.

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

"Wes" wrote in message
...
My favorite handgun is my Security Six target model. Short of a squib
that
ties up the cylinder, I'll take the revolver for the first 5 to 8 rounds
depending on model every time.

Yeah... I've got the Ruger Security Six in a signed bicentennial decoration
package. Dad-in-law gave it to me. It's got enough heft that even with the
magnum round, it doesn't beat you up too bad. (ears might suffer, though
G)

LLoyd

After a Computer crash and the demise of civilization, it was learned
Wes wrote on Thu, 26 Jul 2007 15:06:02 -0400 in
rec.crafts.metalworking :
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:

I just bought my wife a new S&W 637 Airweight 38spl. I've always steered
away from the alloy models just because they didn't "feel right", and I hate
the dinky 1-7/8" barrels. But Maw wanted a "purse-sized" gun, and she
doesn't like those cheezy resin-body automatics any more than I do. Gimme
ARN in my hand!

So, down to the store for the model 637. Oh... she really _liked_ the $200
Crimson View laser grip, too.


But, know what? It's a _sweet_ little weapon! She was marking paper with
it at 10 yards in about 15 shots (with iron sights... I won't let her use
the laser, 'cause it might not work in combat). And she's never shot
anything shorter than a 4" barrel before.

Lloyd you really married well there.

A little point shooting practice at 7 feet or so would be a good idea also.
That is the real world distance your lovely wife might need to use it at.

My favorite handgun is my Security Six target model. Short of a squib that
ties up the cylinder, I'll take the revolver for the first 5 to 8 rounds
depending on model every time.

I seem to recall reading that the FBI determined that gunfights
usually last around two to three rounds, total. Between the bad guy,
you, the kid down the street, passing strangers, on average, there will
be three rounds fired in all. So a revolver works well enough.
OTOH, there are the outliers, which require more shots. So you have
to consider that as well. Are you the unlucky sort to find yourself in
the 95%? Are you two sigmas to the right when things happen? If so,
you might want to consider speed loaders, or something which holds more
ammunition. Or a change in life style which will minimize your exposure
:-)


pyotr


Wes
--
pyotr filipivich
What is normal?
"Two sigmas either side of mu.
You bring the cow." drieux.

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 06:58:39 GMT, pyotr filipivich
wrote:


A little point shooting practice at 7 feet or so would be a good idea also.
That is the real world distance your lovely wife might need to use it at.

My favorite handgun is my Security Six target model. Short of a squib that
ties up the cylinder, I'll take the revolver for the first 5 to 8 rounds
depending on model every time.

I seem to recall reading that the FBI determined that gunfights
usually last around two to three rounds, total. Between the bad guy,
you, the kid down the street, passing strangers, on average, there will
be three rounds fired in all. So a revolver works well enough.
OTOH, there are the outliers, which require more shots. So you have
to consider that as well. Are you the unlucky sort to find yourself in
the 95%? Are you two sigmas to the right when things happen? If so,
you might want to consider speed loaders, or something which holds more
ammunition. Or a change in life style which will minimize your exposure
:-)


pyotr


Average shooting is 3.5 rounds and inside 21 feet.

That half round must be interesting.,,,


Gunner

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 07:52:26 GMT, Gunner
wrote:


Average shooting is 3.5 rounds and inside 21 feet.

That half round must be interesting.,,,


Gunner

BLAM BLAM BLAM BL

Perhaps they do it with 3 rounds of .44 and one .22

Gunner wrote:

Average shooting is 3.5 rounds and inside 21 feet.

And how long does it take to go 21 feet?

That is how short a time that someone has to determine friend or foe, fight
or flight.

That is also why knives can beat guns.

Wes

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 08:52:35 -0400, Wes wrote:

Gunner wrote:

Average shooting is 3.5 rounds and inside 21 feet.

And how long does it take to go 21 feet?

That is how short a time that someone has to determine friend or foe, fight
or flight.

That is also why knives can beat guns.

That might depend on who's wielding the blade. A .45ACP round makes
a 21-foot trip in about 0.025 seconds, .357 mag a bit quicker.

Don Foreman wrote:

That is also why knives can beat guns.

That might depend on who's wielding the blade. A .45ACP round makes
a 21-foot trip in about 0.025 seconds, .357 mag a bit quicker.


I'm speaking of reaction time from when you recognize the threat as real,
get your piece out and accurately fire the first shot. Misses don't count.

Wes

After a Computer crash and the demise of civilization, it was learned
Gunner wrote on Sat, 28 Jul 2007 07:52:26
GMT in rec.crafts.metalworking :
On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 06:58:39 GMT, pyotr filipivich
wrote:
My favorite handgun is my Security Six target model. Short of a squib that
ties up the cylinder, I'll take the revolver for the first 5 to 8 rounds
depending on model every time.

I seem to recall reading that the FBI determined that gunfights
usually last around two to three rounds, total. Between the bad guy,
you, the kid down the street, passing strangers, on average, there will
be three rounds fired in all. So a revolver works well enough.
OTOH, there are the outliers, which require more shots. So you have
to consider that as well. Are you the unlucky sort to find yourself in
the 95%? Are you two sigmas to the right when things happen? If so,
you might want to consider speed loaders, or something which holds more
ammunition. Or a change in life style which will minimize your exposure
:-)


pyotr


Average shooting is 3.5 rounds and inside 21 feet.

That half round must be interesting.,,,

I had a Navy Colt cap & ball revolver do something like that. Pulled
the trigger, and two shots went off. One down the barrel, the other,
directly opposite on the cylinder, impacted on the loading lever. Does
that count as ".5"?
--
pyotr filipivich
"Quemadmoeum gladuis neminem occidit, occidentis telum est. "
Lucius Annaeus Seneca, circa 45 AD
(A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killer's hands.)

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 18:28:54 -0400, Wes wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

That is also why knives can beat guns.

That might depend on who's wielding the blade. A .45ACP round makes
a 21-foot trip in about 0.025 seconds, .357 mag a bit quicker.


I'm speaking of reaction time from when you recognize the threat as real,
get your piece out and accurately fire the first shot. Misses don't count.

Wes

You can react more quickly with a blade? Misses do count if they
motivate an attacker to reconsider. They don't count after a hit or
two. Would you continue to miss at distance where a blade could be
used effectively? There may be a reason why 1911's don't have
bayonet studs... G

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 14:52:59 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, Don
Foreman quickly quoth:

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 08:52:35 -0400, Wes wrote:

Gunner wrote:

Average shooting is 3.5 rounds and inside 21 feet.

And how long does it take to go 21 feet?

That is how short a time that someone has to determine friend or foe, fight
or flight.

That is also why knives can beat guns.

That might depend on who's wielding the blade. A .45ACP round makes
a 21-foot trip in about 0.025 seconds, .357 mag a bit quicker.

Yabbut ya gotsk ta see/process/react by getting it out first.
"Can" is the operative word.

--
This would be the best of all possible worlds,
if there were no religion in it. - John Adams

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 13:19:01 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 11:45:46 -0400, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
wrote:


"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
My alarm company is run by a couple old gentlemen named Smith and
Wesson. They don't make calls.

Can't get DSL where I am, because of all the old copper _in_the_air_ for the
1.6 miles to the local RT.

I live in Central Florida, too. And we lose a modem or phone at least twice
a year, from forgetting to unplug them when a storm comes up. (and no,
surge suppressors won't handle it... we just have to replace that along with
the modem, computer, or phone).

Surge suppressors will handle it, but not the wimpy ones you get at
Best Buy or Radio Shack. In Florida you need big MOV's like this:
http://www.epcos.com/inf/70/ds/LS41K.pdf

A bunch of electronic traffic controllers I designed were put into
service in Dade Country some years ago. Nothing short of a direct
hit bothered them. The only failures we saw, a couple a year or so,
were cremated inside the cabinet -- we're talking total crispy critter
and molten metal.

Don, which MOV from that chart do you recommend to relace the MOVs
that go in home surge suppressors like Isobar, etc. I know they have
a "lifetime" warranty, but if you want to rebuild it yourself and
really make it beefy, which MOV can you use for 110V surge
suppressors?

RWL

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 22:07:17 -0400, GeoLane at PTD dot NET GeoLane at
PTD dot NET wrote:

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 13:19:01 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 11:45:46 -0400, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
wrote:


"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
My alarm company is run by a couple old gentlemen named Smith and
Wesson. They don't make calls.

Can't get DSL where I am, because of all the old copper _in_the_air_ for the
1.6 miles to the local RT.

I live in Central Florida, too. And we lose a modem or phone at least twice
a year, from forgetting to unplug them when a storm comes up. (and no,
surge suppressors won't handle it... we just have to replace that along with
the modem, computer, or phone).

Surge suppressors will handle it, but not the wimpy ones you get at
Best Buy or Radio Shack. In Florida you need big MOV's like this:
http://www.epcos.com/inf/70/ds/LS41K.pdf

A bunch of electronic traffic controllers I designed were put into
service in Dade Country some years ago. Nothing short of a direct
hit bothered them. The only failures we saw, a couple a year or so,
were cremated inside the cabinet -- we're talking total crispy critter
and molten metal.

Don, which MOV from that chart do you recommend to relace the MOVs
that go in home surge suppressors like Isobar, etc. I know they have
a "lifetime" warranty, but if you want to rebuild it yourself and
really make it beefy, which MOV can you use for 110V surge
suppressors?

RWL

From that chart, I'd use the one rated for 130VAC: LS41K130QP.

Here's another one:
http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Da...ets/BA_BB2.pdf

Note that while these devices limit overvoltage from transients, they
don't eliminate it. The connected equipment must still be able to
stand brief (tens of microseconds in duration) transients of up to
maybe 400 volts or so. Most stuff like PC's TV's, etc can. If your
equipment to be protected is very sensitive, then it's best to use a
UPS.

Don Foreman wrote:

You can react more quickly with a blade? Misses do count if they
motivate an attacker to reconsider. They don't count after a hit or
two. Would you continue to miss at distance where a blade could be
used effectively? There may be a reason why 1911's don't have
bayonet studs... G

I was speaking about how an assailant armed with a knife can beat your gun
inside of 21 feet because he knows what he plans to do and you don't.



Wes

many circuits use a spark gap as well as a MOV - the spark gap is much
faster
"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 22:07:17 -0400, GeoLane at PTD dot NET GeoLane at
PTD dot NET wrote:

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 13:19:01 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 11:45:46 -0400, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
wrote:


"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
My alarm company is run by a couple old gentlemen named Smith and
Wesson. They don't make calls.

Can't get DSL where I am, because of all the old copper _in_the_air_ for
the
1.6 miles to the local RT.

I live in Central Florida, too. And we lose a modem or phone at least
twice
a year, from forgetting to unplug them when a storm comes up. (and no,
surge suppressors won't handle it... we just have to replace that along
with
the modem, computer, or phone).

Surge suppressors will handle it, but not the wimpy ones you get at
Best Buy or Radio Shack. In Florida you need big MOV's like this:
http://www.epcos.com/inf/70/ds/LS41K.pdf

A bunch of electronic traffic controllers I designed were put into
service in Dade Country some years ago. Nothing short of a direct
hit bothered them. The only failures we saw, a couple a year or so,
were cremated inside the cabinet -- we're talking total crispy critter
and molten metal.

Don, which MOV from that chart do you recommend to relace the MOVs
that go in home surge suppressors like Isobar, etc. I know they have
a "lifetime" warranty, but if you want to rebuild it yourself and
really make it beefy, which MOV can you use for 110V surge
suppressors?

RWL

From that chart, I'd use the one rated for 130VAC: LS41K130QP.

Here's another one:
http://www.littelfuse.com/data/en/Da...ets/BA_BB2.pdf

Note that while these devices limit overvoltage from transients, they
don't eliminate it. The connected equipment must still be able to
stand brief (tens of microseconds in duration) transients of up to
maybe 400 volts or so. Most stuff like PC's TV's, etc can. If your
equipment to be protected is very sensitive, then it's best to use a
UPS.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 17:46:22 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 14:52:59 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, Don
Foreman quickly quoth:

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 08:52:35 -0400, Wes wrote:

Gunner wrote:

Average shooting is 3.5 rounds and inside 21 feet.

And how long does it take to go 21 feet?

That is how short a time that someone has to determine friend or foe, fight
or flight.

That is also why knives can beat guns.

That might depend on who's wielding the blade. A .45ACP round makes
a 21-foot trip in about 0.025 seconds, .357 mag a bit quicker.

Yabbut ya gotsk ta see/process/react by getting it out first.
"Can" is the operative word.

I think knives are most likely to beat guns when the assailant has the
knife, is already within 21 feet or less, and the defender isn't ready
to shoot. Perhaps that's what Wes meant.

Here's some background on the "21 foot rule" and attacks with edged
weapons:
http://www.policeone.com/news_internal.asp?view=113907

In article ,
Wes wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

You can react more quickly with a blade? Misses do count if they
motivate an attacker to reconsider. They don't count after a hit or
two. Would you continue to miss at distance where a blade could be
used effectively? There may be a reason why 1911's don't have
bayonet studs... G

I was speaking about how an assailant armed with a knife can beat your gun
inside of 21 feet because he knows what he plans to do and you don't.

The solution is to start taking action before it is required.
When the hairs on the back of my neck stand up, I reach into my
pocket and get a firing grip. Nothing can be seen but I van
stoot from the inside of the pocket if needed.

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 08:52:35 -0400, Wes wrote:

Gunner wrote:

Average shooting is 3.5 rounds and inside 21 feet.

And how long does it take to go 21 feet?

That is how short a time that someone has to determine friend or foe, fight
or flight.

That is also why knives can beat guns.

Wes

You are of course referring to the Turring Drill...where a fellow
stands, weapon holstered and is charged by a fellow with a knife from
21 feet. Its an eye opener for those that think handguns are the end
all and be all for self defense.

I keep shooting the knife guy in demonstrations. Not because I can
draw blazingly fast and have reflexes of light speed..but because I
run. As long as I can keep away from the knife guy, and draw my
weapon during the demonstration..he is toast.

Move lateraly, diagnally, back peddle just as fast as you can, drop,
roll and draw. NEVER stand there and take the charge against a knife
guy. He will gut you like a trout. Move move move move!! Movement
is life against someone with a cutting or kinetic weapon. And also
with a firearm.

Keep in mind that only 20 percent of those shot, die from their wound.
So shoot and hit him repeatedly.

Gunner

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 18:00:40 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 18:28:54 -0400, Wes wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

That is also why knives can beat guns.

That might depend on who's wielding the blade. A .45ACP round makes
a 21-foot trip in about 0.025 seconds, .357 mag a bit quicker.


I'm speaking of reaction time from when you recognize the threat as real,
get your piece out and accurately fire the first shot. Misses don't count.

Wes

You can react more quickly with a blade? Misses do count if they
motivate an attacker to reconsider. They don't count after a hit or
two. Would you continue to miss at distance where a blade could be
used effectively? There may be a reason why 1911's don't have
bayonet studs... G

Don..Wes is quite correct. If I primed myself, Nerf knife in hand and
attacked you, inside of say..25 feet, I (and most any attacker), can
turn you into sushi, unless you are standing there, gun in hand. Its
a standard drill in cop school as well. Holstered firearm. Even if
you know Im on my way G

Tueller Drill....good fun to practice
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

Most..most folks tend to freeze for a quick moment as they analyize
the threat..and thats all she takes.
Remember the Cooper Color Code?

If you live in WHITE....it takes far to long to get to RED.


Combat Mindset - The Cooper Color Code

The most important means of surviving a lethal confrontation is,
according to Cooper, neither the weapon nor the martial skills. The
primary tool is the combat mindset, set forth in Principles of
Personal Defense.

In the chapter on awareness, Cooper presents an adaptation of the
Marine Corps system to differentiate states of readiness:

* White - Unaware and unprepared. If attacked in Condition White,
the only thing that may save you is the inadequacy or ineptitude of
your attacker. When confronted by something nasty, your reaction will
probably be "Oh my God! This can't be happening to me."

* Yellow - Relaxed alert. No specific threat situation. Your
mindset is that "today could be the day I may have to defend myself."
You are simply aware that the world is an unfriendly place and that
you are prepared to do something, if necessary. You use your eyes and
ears, and realize that "I may have to SHOOT today." You don't have to
be armed in this state but if you are armed you should be in Condition
Yellow. You should always be in Yellow whenever you are in unfamiliar
surroundings or among people you don't know. You can remain in Yellow
for long periods, as long as you are able to "Watch your six". In
Yellow, you are "taking in" surrounding information in a relaxed but
alert manner, like a continuous 360 degree radar sweep.

* Orange - Specific alert. Something is not quite right and has
gotten your attention. Your radar has picked up a specific alert. You
shift your primary focus to determine if there is a threat (but you do
not drop your six). Your mindset shifts to "I may have to shoot HIM
today." In Condition Orange, you set a mental trigger: "If that goblin
does "x", I will need to stop him." Your pistol usually remains
holstered in this state. Staying in Orange can be a bit of a mental
strain, but you can stay in it for as long as you need to. If the
threat proves to be nothing, you shift back to Condition Yellow.

* Red - Condition Red is fight. Your mental trigger has been
"tripped" (established back in Condition Orange). You take appropriate
action.

The U.S.M.C. also uses "Condition Black" as actively engaged in
combat, as do some of his successors, but Cooper always felt this is
an unnecessary step and not in keeping with the mindset definitions.

Also note that the Color Code was never meant to be a warning system.
Rather, the Color Code was designed to be a mental crutch. It was
designed to allow someone to "get over" the resistance that a normal
person has in pointing a pistol at the center of someone's chest and
pulling the trigger.

In short, the Color Code helps you "think" in a fight. As the level of
danger increases, your resistance to shoot decreases. If you ever do
go to Condition Red, the decision to use lethal force has already been
made (your "mental trigger" has been tripped).made (your "mental
trigger" has been tripped).
Remember the Cooper color code?

On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 04:04:02 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 17:46:22 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 14:52:59 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, Don
Foreman quickly quoth:

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 08:52:35 -0400, Wes wrote:

Gunner wrote:

Average shooting is 3.5 rounds and inside 21 feet.

And how long does it take to go 21 feet?

That is how short a time that someone has to determine friend or foe, fight
or flight.

That is also why knives can beat guns.

That might depend on who's wielding the blade. A .45ACP round makes
a 21-foot trip in about 0.025 seconds, .357 mag a bit quicker.

Yabbut ya gotsk ta see/process/react by getting it out first.
"Can" is the operative word.

I think knives are most likely to beat guns when the assailant has the
knife, is already within 21 feet or less, and the defender isn't ready
to shoot. Perhaps that's what Wes meant.

Here's some background on the "21 foot rule" and attacks with edged
weapons:
http://www.policeone.com/news_internal.asp?view=113907




Excellent write up.

Gunner

On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 04:04:02 -0500, with neither quill nor qualm, Don
Foreman quickly quoth:

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 17:46:22 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:
Yabbut ya gotsk ta see/process/react by getting it out first.
"Can" is the operative word.

I think knives are most likely to beat guns when the assailant has the
knife, is already within 21 feet or less, and the defender isn't ready
to shoot. Perhaps that's what Wes meant.

Here's some background on the "21 foot rule" and attacks with edged
weapons:
http://www.policeone.com/news_internal.asp?view=113907

Ayup. That was covered in 2 of the books I've read on the subject,
Bird's _Concealed Handgun Manual_ and Ayoob's _Handgun Primer_.
I agree with the guy who took his out to 30'. Defensive living can be
transparent if you simply stay alert for potential threats. Luckily,
most of us never get into things simply by being aware. Bad guys can
see that and avoid us more often than not. That's a Good Thing(tm).

---------------------------------------------------
I drive way too fast to worry about my cholesterol.
---------------------------------------------------

On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 12:20:59 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 18:00:40 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 18:28:54 -0400, Wes wrote:

Don Foreman wrote:

That is also why knives can beat guns.

That might depend on who's wielding the blade. A .45ACP round makes
a 21-foot trip in about 0.025 seconds, .357 mag a bit quicker.


I'm speaking of reaction time from when you recognize the threat as real,
get your piece out and accurately fire the first shot. Misses don't count.

Wes

You can react more quickly with a blade? Misses do count if they
motivate an attacker to reconsider. They don't count after a hit or
two. Would you continue to miss at distance where a blade could be
used effectively? There may be a reason why 1911's don't have
bayonet studs... G

Don..Wes is quite correct. If I primed myself, Nerf knife in hand and
attacked you, inside of say..25 feet, I (and most any attacker), can
turn you into sushi, unless you are standing there, gun in hand. Its
a standard drill in cop school as well. Holstered firearm. Even if
you know Im on my way G

No doubt. Took me a while to understand what Wes was saying, as in
who has the knife vs who doesn't have the gun as ready.

(snip)

Remember the Cooper color code?

I do. Payin' attention is the most fundamental form of SD. Anyone can
do it, though a bit of training and experience enables one to do it
better. I've always thought of it as a continuum rather than discrete
levels. I've thought some about how to adapt the concept for my
senior civilian purposes. We don't maintain the level of training
that cops and soldiers do, we're older and slower with less acute
hearing and vision, and we aren't obligated to engage (and shouldn't)
as long as not engaging is possible. I think that makes paying
attention even more important, as is staying out of orange situations
whenever possible -- and it is nearly always possible for the likes of
we. I've been orange only once in the past few years, and that for
only about a minute. Turned out to be a huge raccoon at zero dark
hundred. I doubted that goblins use trained raccoons as nocturnal
decoys. I didn't shoot Bre'r Coon in respect of my neighbors' peaceful
slumbers. He just sorta shuffled off into the night, probably
blinking a bit from the bright light I'd shined on him.

I try to avoid potentially orange places and sits while out and
about. Example: I've recently changed ranges. The place I used to go
had an underground parking ramp, nice in the winter but it has always
felt like a likely ambush venue with me carrying a rangebag containing
guns and ammo. It's one of the very few places I carried locked and
loaded. It's about 10 blox from gang turf. A guy would have to be
purely nuts to attempt an ambush there -- but some druggies are nuts.
I'd do a drivethru in condx yellow lookin' in the shadows before I
parked as close as possible to the range door. When I left, I'd leave
my kit inside and do a quick lookabout before I grabbed my kit and
went to the car. Now I go to a different range that's at least 10
miles from gang turf and where the parking lot is much more open and
well-illuminated. Nicer range, too. I still pay attention. Condition
pastel yellow. Lemon chiffon? G

If/when I find myself in condx orange in my home, my firearm will not
be holstered but I'll use any cover available. I routinely practice
shooting one-handed for that reason. I won't engage unless I must,
but I'll be ready to engage if I must. Job 1 is knowing for certain
sure the location of all friendlies. That's easy with just the two of
us. 911 response time here is typically about 2 minutes but it would
be considerably longer after an event like a tornado touchdown or
extended blackout. Alertness state is elevated during times like
that. In fact, an extended blackout here not long after Katrina was
what got my gray noggin thinkin' about such matters. I felt
vulnerable, and I didn't like it a bit.

Other tactics may be obvious to you, and I'd rather not record mine
for obvious reasons. Suffice it to say that if owning a gun for SD/HD
is prudent, I think it is far from sufficient. Some forethought is
also necessary. Best laid plans and all that, but some forethought
can minimize indecision (and accidents) at a critical time.

I do what I can about preparedness without making a fetish of it. I
would very likely now lose at hand-to-hand combat with a much younger
assailant, and knowing that is part of being prepared. I can and do
maintain a level of proficiency with firearms better than many or most
of the cops I see firing at the range, and I'm continuing to improve.
(I don't see the SWAT guys because they have their own closed range.)
I don't routinely carry because at present I feel no need -- but I am
licensed to carry, I do have a couple of pieces suitable for SD carry
and I practice with them regularly and fairly often. I do that mostly
because I enjoy shooting, but it still counts. Milady shoots too, not
as much or as often as I do but she's definitely competent. She
prefers her .22, but she shoots respectably enough with my 1911 and
particularly well with her .357 magnum revolver.

Some say that practice should be done with the piece and load one
would use for real. I disagree with that guidance for civilians who
have no particular practice regimen or drill. We should practice
with whatever we will practice with. I fire a magazine or cylinder of
full-up loads each session, Milady only occasionally. Don't see any
difference in where they hit in either case. Good regular and
reasonably frequent practice with pleasant-to-shoot light loads forms
and maintains good habits in muscle memory that'll be there when
needed.

Retired folks (and most other folks) tend to do what they enjoy doing
whenever possible, so I keep it enjoyable for both of us. I intend
to take a short CQB course this fall, mostly because I think it'd be
fun and it doesn't cost much.

Ya can't make some prudent activities like going to the dentist fun,
but shooting can be a very enjoyable way to spend an hour or so now
and then. Milady prefers shorter sessions, 30 minutes or so. When
fatigue starts to show or be felt, it's time to call it a day. A nice
lunch out and a visit to the nearby fabric shop is often on the
agenda.