Too_Many_Tools wrote:

And it precludes anyone who wants to buy your home in the future from
having a hardwired line....very bad...I won't be buying your house.


Who cares if you want, or don't want to buy a particular house?
Sooner or later the copper is coming out of all high density residential
areas. It was in the planning stages in the early '80s, and as the ROI
has improved, it is now being implemented. If FIOS is available in your
area, it will be the only service available at some time in the future.

What house will you buy then, or do you plan on living in a cardboard
box?


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 02:59:58 GMT, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

And it precludes anyone who wants to buy your home in the future from
having a hardwired line....very bad...I won't be buying your house.

Who cares if you want, or don't want to buy a particular house?
Sooner or later the copper is coming out of all high density residential
areas. It was in the planning stages in the early '80s, and as the ROI
has improved, it is now being implemented. If FIOS is available in your
area, it will be the only service available at some time in the future.

What house will you buy then, or do you plan on living in a cardboard
box?

Thanks for the warning - if they ever try this on us, I get it in
writing that they leave us one line coming in on good old Copper, and
going straight back to the C.O. with no pair gain in the middle that
doesn't have permanently installed generator backup.

I don't care how high-tech they want to be, you NEED at least one
Copper POTS pair to your residence to get the 99.999% reliability
needed for the burglar alarm dialer, and for emergency calls.

There's no way in hell that they can match the 99.999% reliability
with any sort of pair-gain or FiOS schemes - too many remote equipment
points that only have batteries good for a few hours.

The local phone companies don't own enough portable generators to
power up all the affected boxes in any widespread emergency - they'll
be lucky to keep the Central Offices and larger Remote Switching Units
up, anything that affects less than a few hundred customers simply
won't rank high enough.

The generators they have will take days to deploy - some of them
they'll have to park generator equipped trucks there instead. And
then they won't have the personnel to run around refueling them
daily...

-- Bruce --

On Jul 25, 5:37 am, Bruce L. Bergman
wrote:


Thanks for the warning - if they ever try this on us, I get it in
writing that they leave us one line coming in on good old Copper, and
going straight back to the C.O. with no pair gain in the middle that
doesn't have permanently installed generator backup.


-- Bruce --

It may already be too late. The local phone company uses fiber from
the central office to a substation about six miles from the CO. The
connections to the houses are the same copper that they were. This
allows the phone company to sell DSL to the customers that were too
far away from the CO.

So although Too Many Tools may still live in a rural area for a long
time, the chances are that he won't have copper back to the central
office for a long time.

For reliable communications, get a ham license.

Dan

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

Thanks for the warning - if they ever try this on us, I get it in
writing that they leave us one line coming in on good old Copper, and
going straight back to the C.O. with no pair gain in the middle that
doesn't have permanently installed generator backup.

You might get them to agree to leave the
copper in to the curb, but probably not to the
central office. A dirty little secret is
that some central offices don't have enough
copper to some neighborhoods to leave unused
lines connected.

My neighborhood connects to the CO through
some sort of a mux a couple blocks from my
house. Not only is a "dry pair" to the CO
not available, dialup modems can't go faster
than about 22k baud through the mux.

On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 11:12:49 -0700, Jim Stewart
wrote:

Bruce L. Bergman wrote:

Thanks for the warning - if they ever try this on us, I get it in
writing that they leave us one line coming in on good old Copper, and
going straight back to the C.O. with no pair gain in the middle that
doesn't have permanently installed generator backup.

You might get them to agree to leave the
copper in to the curb, but probably not to the
central office. A dirty little secret is
that some central offices don't have enough
copper to some neighborhoods to leave unused
lines connected.

My neighborhood connects to the CO through
some sort of a mux a couple blocks from my
house. Not only is a "dry pair" to the CO
not available, dialup modems can't go faster
than about 22k baud through the mux.

Hook your FAX machine to that line, and when the faxes start failing
to go through you can scream bloody murder about it, and get some real
results. They'll either find you some copper back to the CO, or
connect you with an /integrated/ pair-gain that doesn't do multiple
conversions and goes to a digital port on the CO Switch.

That's the only thing that will get the State PUC on your side of a
service complaint. The Telco could care less about your data
connection speeds, since they want to sell you DSL or ISDN and make
more money (or a Fractional or Full T-1/DS1 line and make Lots Of
Money) - but a FAX machine is expected to work on any decent phone
line. And it won't work if you are on pair-gain or have more than one
A-D - D-A conversion between the two ends of the call.

If they add an A-D at the pair-gain in the field and a D-A at the
switchroom end of the pair-gain before the A-D into the digital phone
network switching equipment, or they try to cheap out on the pair-gain
equipment with too low a bit-rate (restricted audio bandwidth) on the
backhaul, that will kill both data and FAX.

Gee, I guess my time spent splicing *copper* and *lead* phone cables
and installing the *steel* switchroom structure, *lead* storage
batteries and *copper* -48V power busbars counts as 'metalworking', if
you close one eye and squint... ;-)

-- Bruce --

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote:

Thanks for the warning - if they ever try this on us, I get it in
writing that they leave us one line coming in on good old Copper, and
going straight back to the C.O. with no pair gain in the middle that
doesn't have permanently installed generator backup.


Good luck! They will stop maintaining the old copper where fiber is
available at some point in time, and you'll have no choice but to
switch when it becomes unusable. As far as the guaranteed speed, it
only has to apply to ONE type of service, which will be the new
technology.

Do you think that wen they went from separate wires on separate
insulators for each pair, (and phantom circuits) that you could demand
that they leave a pair up and maintain it, just for you?

How about when they switched from lead jacketed (and paper) aerial
cable to flooded direct burial wiring plant?

They will do what they want to do unless you buy the company, and
freeze its technology in time. Even that won't last long, as supplies of
spares run out.

I was told that Embarq (Sprint) is trying to buy up more of their
competition. If you remember, they were the ones that started the
transition to fiber instead of Microwave relay towers for long distance,
and to reduce the installation costs to isolated areas. Not only does
it reduce their repair costs, but the amount of equipment in a CO sub
office. The local exchange has about 25,000 numbers, and is about the
size of a two car garage. That is connected by fiber to large pedestals
around the area, which serve a thousand or so lines. Their inter CO
backbone is all fiber, as well. That was switched from copper to fiber,
starting in 1990.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

On Jul 24, 9:59 pm, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
Too_Many_Tools wrote:

And it precludes anyone who wants to buy your home in the future from
having a hardwired line....very bad...I won't be buying your house.

Who cares if you want, or don't want to buy a particular house?
Sooner or later the copper is coming out of all high density residential
areas. It was in the planning stages in the early '80s, and as the ROI
has improved, it is now being implemented. If FIOS is available in your
area, it will be the only service available at some time in the future.

What house will you buy then, or do you plan on living in a cardboard
box?

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

LOL...it will matter if it is your house Michael...and I am not the
only buyer who will care.

Haven't you heard....they are predicting the house bust to go till
2009.

I am one for RELIABLE communications. As Jon just pointed out, that
copper line you think is worthless is still the most reliable
communication link you have to your home....more reliable than cell or
fiber. If you haven't figured it out, the companies are shifting the
cost of keeping your fiber powered to you...so how many UPSs are you
buying to keep running when the power goes out? How about the folks on
the other end of the fiber? Now start considering what this means to
you if you have an alarm system that calls out? And have you been
following the 911 scam where companies can't tell where your emergency
call is coming from with cell or Internet phone?

And for what it is worth Michael, I will never live in a high
population density neighborhood if I can help it....far too many
disadvantages for what few advantages one gets from living there.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

LOL...it will matter if it is your house Michael...and I am not the
only buyer who will care.


If no houses in the area still have copper, it will become a non
issue. When the number of active customers drop below a certain point,
that service will be discontinued. Some people didn't want to give up
their old hand crank telephones for rotary dial service, but they had no
choice, did they? The phone companies saved a fortune by eliminating
the operators, and delivering a phone book once in a while.


Haven't you heard....they are predicting the house bust to go till
2009.


Really? That's news to me. I didn't know that my house was for
sale. It sounds like another non issue. I don't plan to move, till I
drop dead, or end up in a nursing home.



I am one for RELIABLE communications. As Jon just pointed out, that
copper line you think is worthless


Where did I say it was worthless?


is still the most reliable
communication link you have to your home....more reliable than cell or
fiber.


I don't have cellular service, and I'm still using buried copper for
about .75 miles where it turns into fiber. Most copper is long gone in
Central Florida, because of lightning damage. A recent storm had a
little over 33,100 lightning strikes as it passed across the state. It
damages copper, but not fiber.


If you haven't figured it out, the companies are shifting the
cost of keeping your fiber powered to you...so how many UPSs are you
buying to keep running when the power goes out?


BUY a UPS? Are you crazy? I have almost 20 good free ones in
storage. They are all over the place, and I can get them any time I
want them.


How about the folks on
the other end of the fiber? Now start considering what this means to
you if you have an alarm system that calls out?


My alarm company is run by a couple old gentlemen named Smith and
Wesson. They don't make calls.


And have you been
following the 911 scam where companies can't tell where your emergency
call is coming from with cell or Internet phone?


That's because people don't read the fine print, and give the proper
information. There is no excuse for something you don't do for
yourself.


And for what it is worth Michael, I will never live in a high
population density neighborhood if I can help it....far too many
disadvantages for what few advantages one gets from living there.


I live in an 40+ year old subdivision. I'm the last house on the
last road, with no houses behind me or to the one side. The Florida
Green belt runs right behind me, and there is a long term ban on new
construction, because of its ability to adsorb lots of stormwater. The
last places was 20+ acres of frozen out orange grove. I'm about three
miles from a small town, eight miles form a mall, and ten from a medium
sized city.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
My alarm company is run by a couple old gentlemen named Smith and
Wesson. They don't make calls.

Can't get DSL where I am, because of all the old copper _in_the_air_ for the
1.6 miles to the local RT.

I live in Central Florida, too. And we lose a modem or phone at least twice
a year, from forgetting to unplug them when a storm comes up. (and no,
surge suppressors won't handle it... we just have to replace that along with
the modem, computer, or phone).

But the S&W thing brought up an off-thread comment:

I just bought my wife a new S&W 637 Airweight 38spl. I've always steered
away from the alloy models just because they didn't "feel right", and I hate
the dinky 1-7/8" barrels. But Maw wanted a "purse-sized" gun, and she
doesn't like those cheezy resin-body automatics any more than I do. Gimme
ARN in my hand!

So, down to the store for the model 637. Oh... she really _liked_ the $200
Crimson View laser grip, too.

But, know what? It's a _sweet_ little weapon! She was marking paper with
it at 10 yards in about 15 shots (with iron sights... I won't let her use
the laser, 'cause it might not work in combat). And she's never shot
anything shorter than a 4" barrel before.

If you need a "sock gun", it's worth a look.

LLoyd

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 11:45:46 -0400, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
wrote:


"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
My alarm company is run by a couple old gentlemen named Smith and
Wesson. They don't make calls.

Can't get DSL where I am, because of all the old copper _in_the_air_ for the
1.6 miles to the local RT.

I live in Central Florida, too. And we lose a modem or phone at least twice
a year, from forgetting to unplug them when a storm comes up. (and no,
surge suppressors won't handle it... we just have to replace that along with
the modem, computer, or phone).

But the S&W thing brought up an off-thread comment:

I just bought my wife a new S&W 637 Airweight 38spl. I've always steered
away from the alloy models just because they didn't "feel right", and I hate
the dinky 1-7/8" barrels. But Maw wanted a "purse-sized" gun, and she
doesn't like those cheezy resin-body automatics any more than I do. Gimme
ARN in my hand!

So, down to the store for the model 637. Oh... she really _liked_ the $200
Crimson View laser grip, too.

But, know what? It's a _sweet_ little weapon! She was marking paper with
it at 10 yards in about 15 shots (with iron sights... I won't let her use
the laser, 'cause it might not work in combat). And she's never shot
anything shorter than a 4" barrel before.

If you need a "sock gun", it's worth a look.

LLoyd

Hit the gun shows and snag all the Federal Nyclad 125gr Hollow Point
you can find

Stuff was made for reliable expansion out of a snubby (and proven by
my own ballistics testing) and isnt hard on the shooter or the weapon.

Federal discontinued it a couple years ago due to most shooters going
to self loaders, but its all I carry in the Detective Special.
Good **** Maynard!

Gunner

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 11:45:46 -0400, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
wrote:


"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
My alarm company is run by a couple old gentlemen named Smith and
Wesson. They don't make calls.

Can't get DSL where I am, because of all the old copper _in_the_air_ for the
1.6 miles to the local RT.

I live in Central Florida, too. And we lose a modem or phone at least twice
a year, from forgetting to unplug them when a storm comes up. (and no,
surge suppressors won't handle it... we just have to replace that along with
the modem, computer, or phone).

Surge suppressors will handle it, but not the wimpy ones you get at
Best Buy or Radio Shack. In Florida you need big MOV's like this:
http://www.epcos.com/inf/70/ds/LS41K.pdf

A bunch of electronic traffic controllers I designed were put into
service in Dade Country some years ago. Nothing short of a direct
hit bothered them. The only failures we saw, a couple a year or so,
were cremated inside the cabinet -- we're talking total crispy critter
and molten metal.

In article ,
Don Foreman wrote:

I live in Central Florida, too. And we lose a modem or phone at least twice
a year, from forgetting to unplug them when a storm comes up. (and no,
surge suppressors won't handle it... we just have to replace that along with
the modem, computer, or phone).

Surge suppressors will handle it, but not the wimpy ones you get at
Best Buy or Radio Shack. In Florida you need big MOV's like this:
http://www.epcos.com/inf/70/ds/LS41K.pdf

Those Radio shack supressors WILL handle it, but not in 1 stage.
I use a multi-stage filter using RS 110vac MOVs, with small
chokes between stages. I haven't lost anything in over 10 years,
but I lost a lot before I installed the multi-stage filters.

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 13:19:01 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 11:45:46 -0400, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
wrote:


"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
My alarm company is run by a couple old gentlemen named Smith and
Wesson. They don't make calls.

Can't get DSL where I am, because of all the old copper _in_the_air_ for the
1.6 miles to the local RT.

I live in Central Florida, too. And we lose a modem or phone at least twice
a year, from forgetting to unplug them when a storm comes up. (and no,
surge suppressors won't handle it... we just have to replace that along with
the modem, computer, or phone).

Surge suppressors will handle it, but not the wimpy ones you get at
Best Buy or Radio Shack. In Florida you need big MOV's like this:
http://www.epcos.com/inf/70/ds/LS41K.pdf

A bunch of electronic traffic controllers I designed were put into
service in Dade Country some years ago. Nothing short of a direct
hit bothered them. The only failures we saw, a couple a year or so,
were cremated inside the cabinet -- we're talking total crispy critter
and molten metal.

Don, which MOV from that chart do you recommend to relace the MOVs
that go in home surge suppressors like Isobar, etc. I know they have
a "lifetime" warranty, but if you want to rebuild it yourself and
really make it beefy, which MOV can you use for 110V surge
suppressors?

RWL

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 11:45:46 -0400, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
wrote:


"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
My alarm company is run by a couple old gentlemen named Smith and
Wesson. They don't make calls.

Can't get DSL where I am, because of all the old copper _in_the_air_ for the
1.6 miles to the local RT.

I live in Central Florida, too. And we lose a modem or phone at least twice
a year, from forgetting to unplug them when a storm comes up. (and no,
surge suppressors won't handle it... we just have to replace that along with
the modem, computer, or phone).

But the S&W thing brought up an off-thread comment:

I just bought my wife a new S&W 637 Airweight 38spl. I've always steered
away from the alloy models just because they didn't "feel right", and I hate
the dinky 1-7/8" barrels. But Maw wanted a "purse-sized" gun, and she
doesn't like those cheezy resin-body automatics any more than I do. Gimme
ARN in my hand!

So, down to the store for the model 637. Oh... she really _liked_ the $200
Crimson View laser grip, too.

But, know what? It's a _sweet_ little weapon! She was marking paper with
it at 10 yards in about 15 shots (with iron sights... I won't let her use
the laser, 'cause it might not work in combat). And she's never shot
anything shorter than a 4" barrel before.

If you need a "sock gun", it's worth a look.

LLoyd

Ladies do seem to like revolvers. Another nice thing about them is
that you can make "powderpuff" loads for comfy practice. 2.8 grains
of W231 behind a 148 gn .38 SWC bullet punches paper just fine at
about 626 fps, milady can shoot those all day without feeling beat up.

My personal non-expert humble opinion is that the CT laser is a good
thing, because the shooter can then practice "pointing" rather than
aiming with sights. After a while (few hundred rounds) she won't
need the laser anymore as pointing becomes muscle-memory instinctive,
and she wouldn't see the sights anyway in a real ****sit.

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:

I just bought my wife a new S&W 637 Airweight 38spl. I've always steered
away from the alloy models just because they didn't "feel right", and I hate
the dinky 1-7/8" barrels. But Maw wanted a "purse-sized" gun, and she
doesn't like those cheezy resin-body automatics any more than I do. Gimme
ARN in my hand!

So, down to the store for the model 637. Oh... she really _liked_ the $200
Crimson View laser grip, too.


But, know what? It's a _sweet_ little weapon! She was marking paper with
it at 10 yards in about 15 shots (with iron sights... I won't let her use
the laser, 'cause it might not work in combat). And she's never shot
anything shorter than a 4" barrel before.

Lloyd you really married well there.

A little point shooting practice at 7 feet or so would be a good idea also.
That is the real world distance your lovely wife might need to use it at.

My favorite handgun is my Security Six target model. Short of a squib that
ties up the cylinder, I'll take the revolver for the first 5 to 8 rounds
depending on model every time.

Wes

"Wes" wrote in message
...
My favorite handgun is my Security Six target model. Short of a squib
that
ties up the cylinder, I'll take the revolver for the first 5 to 8 rounds
depending on model every time.

Yeah... I've got the Ruger Security Six in a signed bicentennial decoration
package. Dad-in-law gave it to me. It's got enough heft that even with the
magnum round, it doesn't beat you up too bad. (ears might suffer, though
G)

LLoyd

After a Computer crash and the demise of civilization, it was learned
Wes wrote on Thu, 26 Jul 2007 15:06:02 -0400 in
rec.crafts.metalworking :
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" wrote:

I just bought my wife a new S&W 637 Airweight 38spl. I've always steered
away from the alloy models just because they didn't "feel right", and I hate
the dinky 1-7/8" barrels. But Maw wanted a "purse-sized" gun, and she
doesn't like those cheezy resin-body automatics any more than I do. Gimme
ARN in my hand!

So, down to the store for the model 637. Oh... she really _liked_ the $200
Crimson View laser grip, too.


But, know what? It's a _sweet_ little weapon! She was marking paper with
it at 10 yards in about 15 shots (with iron sights... I won't let her use
the laser, 'cause it might not work in combat). And she's never shot
anything shorter than a 4" barrel before.

Lloyd you really married well there.

A little point shooting practice at 7 feet or so would be a good idea also.
That is the real world distance your lovely wife might need to use it at.

My favorite handgun is my Security Six target model. Short of a squib that
ties up the cylinder, I'll take the revolver for the first 5 to 8 rounds
depending on model every time.

I seem to recall reading that the FBI determined that gunfights
usually last around two to three rounds, total. Between the bad guy,
you, the kid down the street, passing strangers, on average, there will
be three rounds fired in all. So a revolver works well enough.
OTOH, there are the outliers, which require more shots. So you have
to consider that as well. Are you the unlucky sort to find yourself in
the 95%? Are you two sigmas to the right when things happen? If so,
you might want to consider speed loaders, or something which holds more
ammunition. Or a change in life style which will minimize your exposure
:-)


pyotr


Wes
--
pyotr filipivich
What is normal?
"Two sigmas either side of mu.
You bring the cow." drieux.