I need to take a college level math course for a Bachelors degree that
I am working on. The school does not care what it is as long as it is
college level. So...what should I take that would be useful for my
little hobby machine shop? Geometry? Trigonometry? I was going to take
a Algebra class since I sort of know that already, but I thought I
would get opinions from the group first. I've never worked with
geometry or trig before (or at least that I know of), so give me an
idea what I would need them for.

BTW, my machine shop is a mini-lathe and a mini-mill. I build 1/8 scale
military models. I am working on my first one. I am hoping to get it
done in the next couple of months. I am building a fairly simple
trailer for my first model, but I want to get more detailed models as
my skills improve.

Thanks

Mike

I'd say try trig. Even though just about every pocket calculator can do the
math, you still need to know what a hypotenuse IS!! You'll thank me the
first time you want to make a flywheel with some fancy slots on its face!!


"mj" wrote in message
oups.com...
I need to take a college level math course for a Bachelors degree that
I am working on. The school does not care what it is as long as it is
college level. So...what should I take that would be useful for my
little hobby machine shop? Geometry? Trigonometry? I was going to take
a Algebra class since I sort of know that already, but I thought I
would get opinions from the group first. I've never worked with
geometry or trig before (or at least that I know of), so give me an
idea what I would need them for.

BTW, my machine shop is a mini-lathe and a mini-mill. I build 1/8 scale
military models. I am working on my first one. I am hoping to get it
done in the next couple of months. I am building a fairly simple
trailer for my first model, but I want to get more detailed models as
my skills improve.

Thanks

Mike

Tom,
Why Geometry?
Mike

My degree is in Physics. I also have a MBA. I've taken advanced
Calculus, complex analysis, geometry, matrix mathematics, accounting,
econ., etc.

Take the trig. It will do you better. Trig is used in science and
business. You can learn geometry on your own or in a classroom later.

Simon Shabtai Evan


mj wrote:
I need to take a college level math course for a Bachelors degree that
I am working on. The school does not care what it is as long as it is
college level. So...what should I take that would be useful for my
little hobby machine shop? Geometry? Trigonometry? I was going to take
a Algebra class since I sort of know that already, but I thought I
would get opinions from the group first. I've never worked with
geometry or trig before (or at least that I know of), so give me an
idea what I would need them for.

BTW, my machine shop is a mini-lathe and a mini-mill. I build 1/8 scale
military models. I am working on my first one. I am hoping to get it
done in the next couple of months. I am building a fairly simple
trailer for my first model, but I want to get more detailed models as
my skills improve.

Thanks

Mike

Geometry


"mj" wrote in message
oups.com...
I need to take a college level math course for a Bachelors degree that
I am working on. The school does not care what it is as long as it is
college level. So...what should I take that would be useful for my
little hobby machine shop? Geometry? Trigonometry? I was going to take
a Algebra class since I sort of know that already, but I thought I
would get opinions from the group first. I've never worked with
geometry or trig before (or at least that I know of), so give me an
idea what I would need them for.

BTW, my machine shop is a mini-lathe and a mini-mill. I build 1/8 scale
military models. I am working on my first one. I am hoping to get it
done in the next couple of months. I am building a fairly simple
trailer for my first model, but I want to get more detailed models as
my skills improve.

Thanks

Mike

In article .com,
says...
I need to take a college level math course for a Bachelors degree that
I am working on. The school does not care what it is as long as it is
college level. So...what should I take that would be useful for my
little hobby machine shop? Geometry? Trigonometry? I was going to take
a Algebra class since I sort of know that already, but I thought I
would get opinions from the group first. I've never worked with
geometry or trig before (or at least that I know of), so give me an
idea what I would need them for.

BTW, my machine shop is a mini-lathe and a mini-mill. I build 1/8 scale
military models. I am working on my first one. I am hoping to get it
done in the next couple of months. I am building a fairly simple
trailer for my first model, but I want to get more detailed models as
my skills improve.


Trig, though a CAD program can make you a trig wiz without knowing
tangent from cosine. Facility with algebra is handy too, but the great
majority of shop math beyond basic arithmetic is trig.

Ned Simmons

My experience with mathematics is that each step must be mastered fully before
moving on to the next step. So if you don't have all the prerequisites for
something my advice would be to work on those. That being said, machining is all
about solid geometry. With lots of angles worked in. So both geometry and
trigonometry are extremely useful.

One interesting factoid is that the ancient Greeks taught mathematics not as an
engineering tool (although it was probably helpful then as now) but as a
philosophic training for the mind. When you learn a bunch of mathematics you
think differently. It is this different thinking that is useful in a shop,
whether a home shop or industrial. I have always had a predilection for math,
always loved it, always excelled in it, and still enjoy it. So I don't really
remember not knowing basic sines and cosines and knowing that the complement of
an angle is the difference between that angle and 180°. You really get screwed
up trying to measure angles with a protractor if you don't know geometry, and
you can't do much shop math without geometry. And if you are trying to solve a
shop math problem of any complexity you will need basic algebraic skills. They
aren't really different subjects, they are just slightly differing skills and
the more familiar you are with all of them the easier you will have it in a shop
and the more valuable you will be.

GWE

mj wrote:
I need to take a college level math course for a Bachelors degree that
I am working on. The school does not care what it is as long as it is
college level. So...what should I take that would be useful for my
little hobby machine shop? Geometry? Trigonometry? I was going to take
a Algebra class since I sort of know that already, but I thought I
would get opinions from the group first. I've never worked with
geometry or trig before (or at least that I know of), so give me an
idea what I would need them for.

BTW, my machine shop is a mini-lathe and a mini-mill. I build 1/8 scale
military models. I am working on my first one. I am hoping to get it
done in the next couple of months. I am building a fairly simple
trailer for my first model, but I want to get more detailed models as
my skills improve.

Thanks

Mike

Take Statistics. It may not apply all that much to your hobby, but it
will be useful in business and science. It may be of some help in
understanding the tolerances you need on parts so they will fit with
other parts. A lot of measuring tools have ports so that it is easy to
use statistics to figure out when one needs to replace cutters, etc.


Dan
mj wrote:
I need to take a college level math course for a Bachelors degree that
I am working on. The school does not care what it is as long as it is
college level.
Thanks

Mike

I'd start with Algebra - it will help in the thought process and how to calculate
things. After that if there is one - Take Trig - lots of Geometry in it already
trig is calculations of angles... extension of algebra and then some. Geometry
is a little theory based - always some good - but some - depending on instruction
is not useful in a shop. The trig takes you where you need.

If you end up as a finance person - algebra will help. Algebra helps in calculations.

I'd say get an A in A!

Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



mj wrote:
I need to take a college level math course for a Bachelors degree that
I am working on. The school does not care what it is as long as it is
college level. So...what should I take that would be useful for my
little hobby machine shop? Geometry? Trigonometry? I was going to take
a Algebra class since I sort of know that already, but I thought I
would get opinions from the group first. I've never worked with
geometry or trig before (or at least that I know of), so give me an
idea what I would need them for.

BTW, my machine shop is a mini-lathe and a mini-mill. I build 1/8 scale
military models. I am working on my first one. I am hoping to get it
done in the next couple of months. I am building a fairly simple
trailer for my first model, but I want to get more detailed models as
my skills improve.

Thanks

Mike


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On 26 Jan 2006 18:48:51 -0800, "mj" wrote:

I need to take a college level math course for a Bachelors degree that
I am working on. The school does not care what it is as long as it is
college level. So...what should I take that would be useful for my
little hobby machine shop? Geometry? Trigonometry? I was going to take
a Algebra class since I sort of know that already, but I thought I
would get opinions from the group first. I've never worked with
geometry or trig before (or at least that I know of), so give me an
idea what I would need them for.

BTW, my machine shop is a mini-lathe and a mini-mill. I build 1/8 scale
military models. I am working on my first one. I am hoping to get it
done in the next couple of months. I am building a fairly simple
trailer for my first model, but I want to get more detailed models as
my skills improve.

Thanks

Mike

I'd say go with algebra. Here's why I'd say that:

Geometry and trig are both useful in the shop -- but a college level
course in either is going to focus on theory as a preface to
calculus. You will never, ever need to solve a trig identity or
prove a geometry theorem in the shop! A vo-tech course on shop
math, or even a book, will give you all the simple plane geometry and
trig you'll ever need in the shop. You could learn all the trig
you'd ever use in the shop in a single evening. All you'd ever use
would be the sine, cosine and tangent functions (and their inverse
functions) of right angles -- material for a single 1-hour lecture in
a trig course.

What would you use them for? To calculate or set up angles using
linear measurements or standards as with a sine bar, and to calculate
motion in one direction from motion at a known angle to that direction
as with the compound on a lathe. Calculate dimensions from other
known dimensions at known angles as in how many running feet on a
pitched roof of known X and Y dimensions.

Algebra often includes some descriptive geometry, specifically
defining functions in terms of cartesian coordinates (X, Y, Z) ,
cylindrical coordinates and polar coordinates. That is very useful
in the shop, and may well introduce all the trig you'd ever need.

Can't disagree w/ much in this thread, except for the statistics advice....
goodgawd....
And, statistics is not even *related* to tolerances or their understanding,
UNLESS you are doing something like quality control, random samplings, etc.

Don's advice in particular, tho, speaks to the structure of the course--a
good prof/book will make the material really useful, a lousy one will just
waste your time/tuition money.

Mebbe check out the books in the bookstore of the courses you are
considering, to sort of see the lay of the land, or even talk to the prof's
assigned to teach them, ask what will be covered. A good *applied* geometry
course could be more useful than a theory-oriented trig or algebra class.

In terms of the comment on learning all you need to know in an hour for shop
math, while sort of true, it can take quite some time to become
comfortable/fluent enough w/ the material/concepts to use them for your own
problem solving.
I have found that I have always had to learn much more in a formal setting
to then be able to do even simple stuff on my own. ymmv.

There are some very good shop math books out there, some really good old
ones. I have one that even *proves* the Pythagorean Theorem! Hint: bisect
a right triangle.
--
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On 26 Jan 2006 18:48:51 -0800, "mj" wrote:

I need to take a college level math course for a Bachelors degree that
I am working on. The school does not care what it is as long as it is
college level. So...what should I take that would be useful for my
little hobby machine shop? Geometry? Trigonometry? I was going to take
a Algebra class since I sort of know that already, but I thought I
would get opinions from the group first. I've never worked with
geometry or trig before (or at least that I know of), so give me an
idea what I would need them for.

BTW, my machine shop is a mini-lathe and a mini-mill. I build 1/8 scale
military models. I am working on my first one. I am hoping to get it
done in the next couple of months. I am building a fairly simple
trailer for my first model, but I want to get more detailed models as
my skills improve.

Thanks

Mike

I'd say go with algebra. Here's why I'd say that:

Geometry and trig are both useful in the shop -- but a college level
course in either is going to focus on theory as a preface to
calculus. You will never, ever need to solve a trig identity or
prove a geometry theorem in the shop! A vo-tech course on shop
math, or even a book, will give you all the simple plane geometry and
trig you'll ever need in the shop. You could learn all the trig
you'd ever use in the shop in a single evening. All you'd ever use
would be the sine, cosine and tangent functions (and their inverse
functions) of right angles -- material for a single 1-hour lecture in
a trig course.

What would you use them for? To calculate or set up angles using
linear measurements or standards as with a sine bar, and to calculate
motion in one direction from motion at a known angle to that direction
as with the compound on a lathe. Calculate dimensions from other
known dimensions at known angles as in how many running feet on a
pitched roof of known X and Y dimensions.

Algebra often includes some descriptive geometry, specifically
defining functions in terms of cartesian coordinates (X, Y, Z) ,
cylindrical coordinates and polar coordinates. That is very useful
in the shop, and may well introduce all the trig you'd ever need.

I
"mj" wrote in message
oups.com...
I need to take a college level math course for a
Bachelors degree that
I am working on. The school does not care what
it is as long as it is
college level. So...what should I take that
would be useful for my
little hobby machine shop? Geometry?
Trigonometry? I was going to take
a Algebra class since I sort of know that
already, but I thought I
would get opinions from the group first. I've
never worked with
geometry or trig before (or at least that I know
of), so give me an
idea what I would need them for.

BTW, my machine shop is a mini-lathe and a
mini-mill. I build 1/8 scale
military models. I am working on my first one. I
am hoping to get it
done in the next couple of months. I am building
a fairly simple
trailer for my first model, but I want to get
more detailed models as
my skills improve.

Thanks

Mike


I took an engineering degree about 35 years ago
and busted my butt with the maths they loaded us
up with. Calculus, differential equations, second
and higher order differential equations etc. etc.
It was all necessary for the physics and control
theory classes. In the last 35 years I have used
calculus about once( to find a minimum point).
Everything else has been just algebra,geo/trig and
plain old arithmetic. Since the invention of
Excel, I hardly used anything else. Take the trig,
it will be useful in the shop.

mj wrote:
Tom,
Why Geometry?
Mike

I second that. Geometry teaches you how to think.

cheers
T.Alan

Look to see if the school you are attending has a 'dummy math' course.
These are generally made to help engineering students who messed up on
the math enterance exams --- like I did years ago. The course went
over algebra, geometry and trig in one semester and kind of puts it all
together into one nice lump.

I had to take it because I was hung over on the day of the enterance
exam. All my buddies flunked first semester calculus and I was in
class with them second semester -- and aced the course. Ultimately I
wound up with a degree in math.

Check for a survey course. Algebra, Trig and Geometry all work
together form a great real world tool. Usually it's not the complex
stuff that you need -- what you really need is just enough
understanding to know where to look for the answers.

Rye



mj wrote:
I need to take a college level math course for a Bachelors degree that
I am working on. The school does not care what it is as long as it is
college level. So...what should I take that would be useful for my
little hobby machine shop? Geometry? Trigonometry? I was going to take
a Algebra class since I sort of know that already, but I thought I
would get opinions from the group first. I've never worked with
geometry or trig before (or at least that I know of), so give me an
idea what I would need them for.

BTW, my machine shop is a mini-lathe and a mini-mill. I build 1/8 scale
military models. I am working on my first one. I am hoping to get it
done in the next couple of months. I am building a fairly simple
trailer for my first model, but I want to get more detailed models as
my skills improve.

Thanks

Mike

Look to see if the school you are attending has a 'dummy math' course.
These are generally made to help engineering students who messed up on
the math enterance exams --- like I did years ago. The course went
over algebra, geometry and trig in one semester and kind of puts it all
together into one nice lump.

I had to take it because I was hung over on the day of the enterance
exam. All my buddies flunked first semester calculus and I was in
class with them second semester -- and aced the course. Ultimately I
wound up with a degree in math.

Check for a survey course. Algebra, Trig and Geometry all work
together form a great real world tool. Usually it's not the complex
stuff that you need -- what you really need is just enough
understanding to know where to look for the answers.

Rye



mj wrote:
I need to take a college level math course for a Bachelors degree that
I am working on. The school does not care what it is as long as it is
college level. So...what should I take that would be useful for my
little hobby machine shop? Geometry? Trigonometry? I was going to take
a Algebra class since I sort of know that already, but I thought I
would get opinions from the group first. I've never worked with
geometry or trig before (or at least that I know of), so give me an
idea what I would need them for.

BTW, my machine shop is a mini-lathe and a mini-mill. I build 1/8 scale
military models. I am working on my first one. I am hoping to get it
done in the next couple of months. I am building a fairly simple
trailer for my first model, but I want to get more detailed models as
my skills improve.

Thanks

Mike

"mj" wrote in message
ups.com...
Tom,
Why Geometry?
Mike


I would liken it to an accountant studying addition and subtraction. As you
machine more, you will see that you are using the math of relationships in
shapes, mostly circles and triangles. Most of it will be very simple and
become second nature and you will visualize the effects that your cuts will
make.

Don sez: Among other "noteworthys " Algebra often includes some
descriptive geometry, specifically
defining functions in terms of cartesian coordinates (X, Y, Z) ,
cylindrical coordinates and polar coordinates. That is very useful
in the shop, and may well introduce all the trig you'd ever need."

Resoundingly agree! Algebra is the calculation arm of mathematics; the
intro-port into the fascinating world of math. Without it, there is can be
little coordination among (between ?) the other branches of mathematics.
Branches ? Why are they called brances ?? Algebra is the trunk of the
math tree. Study it and it will take you into other math areas you're
likely to be involved with in the shop.

Bob Swinney




"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On 26 Jan 2006 18:48:51 -0800, "mj" wrote:

I need to take a college level math course for a Bachelors degree that
I am working on. The school does not care what it is as long as it is
college level. So...what should I take that would be useful for my
little hobby machine shop? Geometry? Trigonometry? I was going to take
a Algebra class since I sort of know that already, but I thought I
would get opinions from the group first. I've never worked with
geometry or trig before (or at least that I know of), so give me an
idea what I would need them for.

BTW, my machine shop is a mini-lathe and a mini-mill. I build 1/8 scale
military models. I am working on my first one. I am hoping to get it
done in the next couple of months. I am building a fairly simple
trailer for my first model, but I want to get more detailed models as
my skills improve.

Thanks

Mike

I'd say go with algebra. Here's why I'd say that:

Geometry and trig are both useful in the shop -- but a college level
course in either is going to focus on theory as a preface to
calculus. You will never, ever need to solve a trig identity or
prove a geometry theorem in the shop! A vo-tech course on shop
math, or even a book, will give you all the simple plane geometry and
trig you'll ever need in the shop. You could learn all the trig
you'd ever use in the shop in a single evening. All you'd ever use
would be the sine, cosine and tangent functions (and their inverse
functions) of right angles -- material for a single 1-hour lecture in
a trig course.

What would you use them for? To calculate or set up angles using
linear measurements or standards as with a sine bar, and to calculate
motion in one direction from motion at a known angle to that direction
as with the compound on a lathe. Calculate dimensions from other
known dimensions at known angles as in how many running feet on a
pitched roof of known X and Y dimensions.

"mj" wrote in message
oups.com...
I need to take a college level math course for a Bachelors degree that
I am working on. The school does not care what it is as long as it is
college level. So...what should I take that would be useful for my
little hobby machine shop? Geometry? Trigonometry? I was going to take
a Algebra class since I sort of know that already, but I thought I
would get opinions from the group first. I've never worked with
geometry or trig before (or at least that I know of), so give me an
idea what I would need them for.

BTW, my machine shop is a mini-lathe and a mini-mill. I build 1/8 scale
military models. I am working on my first one. I am hoping to get it
done in the next couple of months. I am building a fairly simple
trailer for my first model, but I want to get more detailed models as
my skills improve.

Thanks

Mike


And you didn't pay any attention thus far in math because?

Steve

I stick with my recommendation. Statistics is very much related to
tolerances if you are doing designs that are going to be produced at a
reasonable cost. But the main reason I recommended Statistics is that
it did not sound like the poster was planning on an Engineering or
Science career. More likely to end up in business. Would be more
helpful there than trig, algebra, or geometry.


Dan


Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
Can't disagree w/ much in this thread, except for the statistics advice.....
goodgawd....
And, statistics is not even *related* to tolerances or their understanding,
UNLESS you are doing something like quality control, random samplings, etc.


--
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

Trig will probably help you understand some metalworking issues.
But doesn't the college have requirements? The one I attended
didn't give credit for Algebra, though they required the class
if you didn't qualify for the higher level courses initially.

mj wrote:
I need to take a college level math course for a Bachelors degree that
I am working on. The school does not care what it is as long as it is
college level. So...what should I take that would be useful for my
little hobby machine shop? Geometry? Trigonometry? I was going to take
a Algebra class since I sort of know that already, but I thought I
would get opinions from the group first. I've never worked with
geometry or trig before (or at least that I know of), so give me an
idea what I would need them for.

Ignoramus13653 wrote:


I cannot see how statistics can be even comprehended without knowing
some basics of algebra -- square roots, binomials, etc. Going into
probability distributions, needs some basic knowledge of calculus.



I think you can comprehend statistics with just high school courses in
algebra. I learned square roots and binomials in grade school.


Dan

wrote:
Look to see if the school you are attending has a 'dummy math' course.
These are generally made to help engineering students who messed up on
the math enterance exams --- like I did years ago. The course went
over algebra, geometry and trig in one semester and kind of puts it all
together into one nice lump.

Rye,
I think the school offers an "Intro to Math" course that I'll need to
take. but then I have to take something above that because the "Intro"
course will not fulfill my needs towards the degree. I am hoping it
will cover everything like your are recommending.

Mike

WOW! I never expected to get so much advice on this! Thanks!

But you all aren't making my choice any easier either. I am starting to
lean towards taking algebra. It has been awhile since I have done any
algebra so that might be a good refresher. I am in the military, so
they are paying pretty much all of my tuition. Once I decide on a
course, I'll probably sign up for the other ones later. It appears that
I won't be making too bad a choice whether I choose geometry or trig.

Thanks so far! Great reading.
Mike

T.Alan Kraus wrote:

mj wrote:

Tom,
Why Geometry?
Mike

I second that. Geometry teaches you how to think.

cheers
T.Alan


Geometry teaches you how to think - geometrically.

Spherical trig makes a better rounded mind...

Steve,
Probably because I was a slacker in high school. LOL
The sad thing is, I was really good in math. I caught on to algebra
quick. Some of the "smart" kids struggled. I carried a B grade in class
without even trying. I had Cs and Ds for everything else. I did not
apply myself and only took the very minimum to get my high school
diploma. I'm 46 now and decided a degree would be pretty cool.
Mike

Mike,
I'm not sure. My advisor only said that I needed a "college level math
course and it could not be an Intro course". I'll have to question him
some more on that and have him OK my choice. I have to take the Intro
course anyway because I need it as a preresiquite (?) for taking
anything else at the school that I am taking my classes.
Mike

Thanks for the suggestion, but Statistics is probably out. I am not
sure if that will meet the math course requirement anyway. I am more
interested in one of the other three anyway.
Mike

Mike,

I need to take a college level math course for a Bachelors degree that
I am working on. The school does not care what it is as long as it is
college level. So...what should I take that would be useful for my
little hobby machine shop? Geometry? Trigonometry? I was going to take
a Algebra class since I sort of know that already, but I thought I
would get opinions from the group first. I've never worked with
geometry or trig before (or at least that I know of), so give me an
idea what I would need them for.

You don't identify the degree you seek, which makes it hard to give you
a good answer. My reflexive answer is to take all the math you can fit
into it, starting with algebra because "sort of know that already" is
not a firm foundation, and algegbra is hugely important for anything
else you will do.

A formal course in trigonometry is, IMHO, a bit of a waste if you take
basic calculus, physics, and then branch off into any
math/physics/engineering degree program. In any of those areas, you
will learn trig as you go and in self defense.

If you are going for another type of degree, then trig arguably makes
more sense than calculus, because while the latter exposes you to some
trig, it is cast differently and won't really help you if you stop there.

If you are in doubt about what to do, and engineering appeals to you
(owning a lathe and a mill certainly puts you "at risk"g), please
seriously consider studying engineering. IMHO, it is one of the best
undergraduate degrees available. Obviously, it is not for everyone and
if you are strongly pulled in another direction, go for it.

Good luck!

Bill

Well, I'm just genuinely curious:

Spose I'm making a part.
I know, from general principle, that the *least* amount of a part requires
makes for a cheaper part.
So I determine just how much slop I can get away with.

Spose, through consultation, trial and error, etc., I determine that the .25
dia.pin I'm making can "tolerate" a maximum tolerance of +/-.005, but
"feels" a little better w/ +/- .003 tolerance, altho production might be a
little slower at .003.

It is now a judgment call to decide whether to go w/ .005, or .003

How would statistics, in any way, have helped me in this
determination/judgment call?

Now, if I had just received 100,000 parts, and wanted to check the
quality/precision of the batch, then I'd have to follow standard sampling
guidelines, punch the numbers in a program, and see if I get a pass or fail.
And even then I wouldn't really need statistics, cuz someone who knew the
statistics already set up the algorithm/criteria, etc., so I can in fact
just punch in the numbers.

Not saying statistics is not a noble endeavor, cuz it really is fascinating
at its core.
Just saying that proly not a single machinist or hobbyist in the goddamm
world needs to know it.

Other than the relevance of statistical principles in general, which
everyone should know, just as "self defense"--bell curves, standard
deviations, etc.
--
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
wrote in message
ps.com...
I stick with my recommendation. Statistics is very much related to
tolerances if you are doing designs that are going to be produced at a
reasonable cost. But the main reason I recommended Statistics is that
it did not sound like the poster was planning on an Engineering or
Science career. More likely to end up in business. Would be more
helpful there than trig, algebra, or geometry.


Dan


Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
Can't disagree w/ much in this thread, except for the statistics
advice....
goodgawd....
And, statistics is not even *related* to tolerances or their
understanding,
UNLESS you are doing something like quality control, random samplings,
etc.


--
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll

Ackshooly, here's the best idea:

Slick yer way thru math the easiest way you can, and then post all yer shop
math Q's here!

And actually, apropo of some of the other advice, which basically said
there's no such thing as too much math, you might be best served by taking
the math that would be best for long-term/academic interests, and just fill
in the blanks w/ help here on the group, or from some very good shop math
books.
With a good foundation, it will be all the more easy to fill in those
blanks.
--
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"mj" wrote in message
oups.com...
I need to take a college level math course for a Bachelors degree that
I am working on. The school does not care what it is as long as it is
college level. So...what should I take that would be useful for my
little hobby machine shop? Geometry? Trigonometry? I was going to take
a Algebra class since I sort of know that already, but I thought I
would get opinions from the group first. I've never worked with
geometry or trig before (or at least that I know of), so give me an
idea what I would need them for.

BTW, my machine shop is a mini-lathe and a mini-mill. I build 1/8 scale
military models. I am working on my first one. I am hoping to get it
done in the next couple of months. I am building a fairly simple
trailer for my first model, but I want to get more detailed models as
my skills improve.

Thanks

Mike

I'm not crazy about the analogy, but I think I get the point.

To expand on it a little, I think that machining, and its allied endeavors,
would likely greatly potentiate the whole math/learningthinking process,
mebbe by a full order of magnitude.

IOW, teach yer average video/game-playing suburban Goth-child geometry,
trig, calculus, and w/ half a brain they'll get/slug through it, and proly
try to forget the experience.

Teach that same curriculum to a kid who instead hung out in his dad's
machine shop, actually DOIN sumpn, and he'd likely not only greatly excel,
and even enjoy, that same geometry, trig, calc, but might also come away w/
new independent insights into things and the world.
Which could then help his shop endeavors, which would then reinforce the
academic/learning experience, etc. etc.
A powerful learning tool, imo.

And the same should hold for adults.
--
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
om...

"mj" wrote in message
ups.com...
Tom,
Why Geometry?
Mike


I would liken it to an accountant studying addition and subtraction. As
you machine more, you will see that you are using the math of
relationships in shapes, mostly circles and triangles. Most of it will be
very simple and become second nature and you will visualize the effects
that your cuts will make.

mj wrote:
Tom,
Why Geometry?
Mike

Each shape you will make with your craft will be a geometric shape...
just my two cents worth.

I strongly advise you to talk to the people who teach each of the
classes. The content at college level could vary wildly depending on who
is teaching it. I don't know if you'll get more useful info out of a
professor or a graduate teaching assistant.

Steve

mj wrote:

WOW! I never expected to get so much advice on this! Thanks!

But you all aren't making my choice any easier either. I am starting to
lean towards taking algebra. It has been awhile since I have done any
algebra so that might be a good refresher. I am in the military, so
they are paying pretty much all of my tuition. Once I decide on a
course, I'll probably sign up for the other ones later. It appears that
I won't be making too bad a choice whether I choose geometry or trig.

Thanks so far! Great reading.
Mike

Tom Miller wrote:

In the last 35 years I have used
calculus about once( to find a minimum point).

Not exactly important for the poster's question, but I actually find I
use calculus a lot, both in work and even in everyday life.

I don't mean I do integrals on cocktail napkins - that's not really the
point. What's important is the ways of seeing and addressing the world
that result from an understanding of calc. These can be very useful
hints for solving problems, even if 99% of the calc you do is more or
less "by eye". Real world calc problems tend to either be very simple,
not require a precise answer, or be messy enough that you just get a
numerical solution from the computer.

But back for a minute to doing calc by eye. A good graphical
visualization of what is going on is so much more usefull than being
able to use black magic on algebra, which is what the non-graphical
part amounts to. If we could teach graphical calc in mid-high school,
some of those ideas might actually get through. Instead we hit the
kids with 2nd and 3rd year algebra exercises which exist chiefly to set
up for the formal explanation of the calculus - a class most of them
won't take. We make them do 90% of the work of calc, but only show the
handful that survive that the dirty little tricks you can use to kill
off the inconvenient algebraic terms and be left with something that
simplifies down to a rewarding answer.

Bill,
Good point on the degree! I never thought to post it.

I'm working on a ministry degree. I don't think I'll need to know alot
of geometry or trig in preaching the Word of God. LOL. That is why I
thought I would try to take something that would help out in my little
machining hobby.

Thanks.

Mike

Mr. PV,
LOL. Thanks. I have no doubt that whatever I take, I WILL be posting
questions on the board.

As I posted above this post, my major is in ministry. I'm not sure how
often I'll use algebra, geo, or trig in preaching the Word of God, but
as long as I HAVE to take a course, I just as well take something that
I might get some use out of.

Mike

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 19:19:00 -0500, "Proctologically Violated©®"
wrote:

Ackshooly, here's the best idea:

Slick yer way thru math the easiest way you can, and then post all yer shop
math Q's here!


Right track! Keep your ojectives in focus:

objective 1: degree
objective 2; math in shop

Pick yer course to best serve objective 1, e.g., least likely to
impede progress toward sought degree. There are many ways to
meet objective 2. Vo-tech courses in particular tend to focus on
the practical and immediately-useful, while lower-level academic
courses tend to "build a base" for more advanced study in a given
area.

Mike,

Good point on the degree! I never thought to post it.

I'm working on a ministry degree. I don't think I'll need to know alot
of geometry or trig in preaching the Word of God. LOL. That is why I
thought I would try to take something that would help out in my little
machining hobby.

Trig might not help you preach, but it might help you help kids succeed
in school (tutoring etc.). As it turns out, I will offer pretty much
the same advice as befo if you are going to take a lot of math, skip
a formal trig course, because you will pick it up other ways. If you
would go no further than the basic calculus sequence (if that), then
trig will probably do you more good than anything else, but ONLY after
you make peace with algebra.

I disagree with posts suggesting that you should steer away from math
because it is superfluous. Some skills based courses will give you a
unique perspective when working with kids on the edge of failure. Some
need a swift kick through the hoops in front of them; others need help
making a graceful landing short of them, and you'll be more help to both
groups if you can tell the difference between them.

Good luck!

Bill

Bill Schwab wrote:

Mike,

Good point on the degree! I never thought to post it.

I'm working on a ministry degree. I don't think I'll need to know alot
of geometry or trig in preaching the Word of God. LOL. That is why I
thought I would try to take something that would help out in my little
machining hobby.


Trig might not help you preach, but it might help you help kids
succeed in school (tutoring etc.). As it turns out, I will offer
pretty much the same advice as befo if you are going to take a lot
of math, skip a formal trig course, because you will pick it up other
ways. If you would go no further than the basic calculus sequence (if
that), then trig will probably do you more good than anything else,
but ONLY after you make peace with algebra.

I disagree with posts suggesting that you should steer away from math
because it is superfluous. Some skills based courses will give you a
unique perspective when working with kids on the edge of failure.
Some need a swift kick through the hoops in front of them; others need
help making a graceful landing short of them, and you'll be more help
to both groups if you can tell the difference between them.

Good luck!

Bill

I don't know, it might make for some unusual sermons...

Steve

Proctologically Violated©® wrote:
Well, I'm just genuinely curious:

Spose I'm making a part.
I know, from general principle, that the *least* amount of a part requires
makes for a cheaper part.
So I determine just how much slop I can get away with.

Spose, through consultation, trial and error, etc., I determine that the ..25
dia.pin I'm making can "tolerate" a maximum tolerance of +/-.005, but
"feels" a little better w/ +/- .003 tolerance, altho production might be a
little slower at .003.

It is now a judgment call to decide whether to go w/ .005, or .003

How would statistics, in any way, have helped me in this
determination/judgment call?


Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll


Well if you are really trying to decide, you probably use some
statistics to determine not just the tolerance of the pin, but also
the tolerance of the hole it fits into. Then assuming that the
distribution of the parts is Gausian, you can figure out how loose the
tolerances can be and still have an acceptable assembly rate. You
might set the tolerances so that once in say 3000 times the pin will
not work with a hole. It might be cheaper to throw away a pin once in
a while than to make closer tolerance pins.

If machinest don't need statistics, why does J & L sell so many
measuring tools with a spc output port? And why does J & L sell
statistical control software?

Engineering isn't just designing something so it works. Any damn fool
can do that. An engineer designs it so it works and costs less.

Dan