On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 14:21:16 GMT, Ignoramus1729 wrote:

I ****ed up. Tried to use 9x18 Makarov rounds in a Beretta 92FS. Never
actually fired the gun with that bullet, since it got stuck.

Both the 9x18 and 9x19 headspace on the neck, so your case is probably
1mm too far forward.

It jammed solid. The slide is perfectly stuck. Does not go forward or
backward. Releasing the slide release or magazine release does
nothing.

I can't reconcile that. I'd guess the end of the case is at the front
of the chamber, and that the extractor is behind the rim of the case.
But I can't mentally picture the geometry that would make the slide not
open. Is it fully shut, as in barrel locked up?

Just WTF should I do now... Any ideas...

I'm pretty confident in the shop, and around guns in general, but
to me this sounds like a "gunsmith" call.

Dave

Ignoramus1729 wrote:

I do not post to rec.guns due to their email policy and was hoping
that someone here might know.

I ****ed up. Tried to use 9x18 Makarov rounds in a Beretta 92FS. Never
actually fired the gun with that bullet, since it got stuck.

It jammed solid. The slide is perfectly stuck. Does not go forward or
backward. Releasing the slide release or magazine release does
nothing.

Just WTF should I do now... Any ideas...



If I understand, the round is live? If so, see a gunsmith and make
sure you understand the transport rules in your area about
transporting a loaded firearm.


Wes
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well
please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the
consequences." -- PJ O'Rourke

On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 16:31:32 -0400, wrote:
Ignoramus1729 wrote:

Just WTF should I do now... Any ideas...

If I understand, the round is live? If so, see a gunsmith and make
sure you understand the transport rules in your area about
transporting a loaded firearm.

Heh. He's in Illinois, the most gun-unfriendly state in the Midwest.
I still can't visualize the geometry involved to make that slide not
open. Far as I know, the only difference between 9x18 and 9x19 is,
well, one mm in length of the case, and I can't reconcile that with the
slide not opening back up.

Iggy, what's the composition of the bullet in question?

On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 21:00:02 GMT, Ignoramus1729 wrote:
On 3 Oct 2005 20:52:19 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:

Iggy, what's the composition of the bullet in question?

FMJ

OK, so copper jacket, lead core. Do you have another round as a sample?
Could you measure from the tip of the bullet to the muzzle, (depth mic)
to see exactly what the positioning is? You'd need to know how far from
the muzzle the front of the chamber is, and I don't have a Beretta to
measure up for you (oddly enough...) but if you could determine the
position of the case vs. the chamber, that would tell us a lot about the
geometry.

Another thought, and I'm not sure if it's a good one, would be to make a
sleeve to go into the barrel, out of nylon or similar. Protect the
rifling, go in with a gun drill, and take a hole (.125 or so?) through
the bullet. Drain powder, and then you're just dealing with a primer,
not really a big concern then. This may be dramatically unsafe of an
act to carry out and really bad advice, but it _would_ eliminate the
concerns of it going off once you finished the operation. Hand
drilling, slowly, well out of the way... I dunno. Not my idea of a good
time, but less of a bad time than hammering on a gun with a live round
in the pipe.

Would I be out of place in asking how the hell this happened in the
first place?

Dave

On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 21:44:59 GMT, Ignoramus1729 wrote:
On 3 Oct 2005 21:11:01 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:

Another thought, and I'm not sure if it's a good one, would be to make a
sleeve to go into the barrel, out of nylon or similar. Protect the
rifling, go in with a gun drill, and take a hole (.125 or so?) through
the bullet.

hm, hot gun drill drilling into gun powder...

Wouldn't be hot though, would it?

let me do this when I pay you, but before you ship the die grinder to
me. (insider joke)

Heh. This has all signs of becoming a recurring joke...

I will try to see if there is anything that I can do with a
screwdriver from the magazine side. The magazine is removed at this
point.

If you can see the back or bottom of the rim, maybe you can get an idea
of if it's in there cocked or something.

Would I be out of place in asking how the hell this happened in the
first place?

There is this gun range with a "shooting pit" where people go and
shoot their repeating rifles (mostly). It is a big pit full of mud,
trash, and, this month, with some pumpkins.

Ah, yes. Pumpkins.

I had a friend who recently separated from his wife.
So, we had fun shooting at pumpkins with my Kalashnikov.

Good therapy that.

At that point, we decided to try the Beretta. I put some bullets into
the magazine, released the slide and it got stuck. Then we shot
remaining 7.62x39 ammo and went home.

Was this the first shot of the day on that gun? When was the last time
it was fired, and/or cleaned? I'm wondering if this isn't just "crud in
chamber" more than "wrong type of round". Fed from the magazine, I
assume?

In article , Ignoramus1729 says...

Just WTF should I do now... Any ideas...

Call a reputable gunsmith in your local area. Explain the
exact problem to him, and exactly how it occurred. Listen
to what he suggests, and then do exactly that.

Jim


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please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Keywords:
In article , xray wrote:
On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 20:57:53 GMT, Ignoramus1729
wrote:

I really am not looking to
start a gun law discussion here.

Like you have any way to prevent that should it decide to erupt.

Good wishes on the solution to the real problem, though. I'm guessing
you are probably with me on this, but the idea of drilling into the
front of the round to drain the powder is not something that I would do.

I think gently tapping on the nose of the round with a dowel would be
safer than drilling. It sounds like a few gentle taps should do it. The
round got jammed in there by the forse of the slide closing, so it
shouldn't take more that that to dislodge it. I wouldn't use a hammer to
hit the dowel, but a moderately long stick. That way if anything weird
happens, there won't be anything metal in the way. Just make sure the
muzzle is pointed in a safe direction at all times.

Doug White

On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 23:01:42 GMT, xray wrote:

I thought he said the slide is jammed too.

Well, if the case won't come back because the bullet is several
thousanths too big, the slide would seem like it's jammed, until you
either pull the extractor through the rim, or the bullet out of the
barrel.

"Ignoramus1729" wrote in message
.. .

The slug is jammed in the spout, tap it out with a wood or plastic rod while
trying to move the slide. Don't look down the tube while you are doing this
although the odds of ignition aren't great. When it's your time...it's your
time, but don't dare God.

Hi Iggy,

I think I've heard of this happening before and the solution was to
support the rear of the gun and, using softeners, tap downward on the
front of the slide.
The theory was this was less stress on the slide and related parts than
is caused by firing a round. I seem to remember it worked just fine.

Now it's been a while since I heard about this so take it with MANY
grains of salt, especially in the details. Good luck.

dennis
in nca

Ignoramus1729 wrote:
On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 00:19:55 GMT, Tom Gardner wrote:

"Ignoramus1729" wrote in message
...

The slug is jammed in the spout, tap it out with a wood or plastic rod while
trying to move the slide. Don't look down the tube while you are doing this
although the odds of ignition aren't great. When it's your time...it's your
time, but don't dare God.




makes perfect sense. I will indeed try that, while looking the other
way.

i

I would put the barrel over the rod, pointed down into thick wood or dirt.
Wear a face sheild in case any parts or parts of parts eject upwards.

On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 23:01:42 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, xray
quickly quoth:

On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 22:48:09 GMT, (Doug White)
wrote:

Keywords:
In article , xray wrote:
On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 20:57:53 GMT, Ignoramus1729
wrote:

I really am not looking to
start a gun law discussion here.

Like you have any way to prevent that should it decide to erupt.

Good wishes on the solution to the real problem, though. I'm guessing
you are probably with me on this, but the idea of drilling into the
front of the round to drain the powder is not something that I would do.

I think gently tapping on the nose of the round with a dowel would be
safer than drilling. It sounds like a few gentle taps should do it. The
round got jammed in there by the forse of the slide closing, so it
shouldn't take more that that to dislodge it. I wouldn't use a hammer to
hit the dowel, but a moderately long stick. That way if anything weird
happens, there won't be anything metal in the way. Just make sure the
muzzle is pointed in a safe direction at all times.


I thought he said the slide is jammed too.

He did, but that's probably the extractor linked to it and hanging
up on the stuck brass. Doug's idea is what I'd try, with the chamber
opening away from me. Once the slug has slid into the brass, holding
the rifle upside down might (with the dowel or brass welding rod
against the slug for clearance) release the powder so it would be a
bit safer to more firmly tap the dowel.

--
"Most Folks Are As Happy As They Make Up Their Minds To Be"
-Abraham Lincoln
-----------------------------------------------------------
www.diversify.com - Happy Website Development

On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 02:40:37 GMT, Ignoramus1729
wrote:

Thanks, Rigger, Larry, Jim, and everyone else.

I have fixed the Beretta. I carefully pried a gap between the barrel

Then it had not gone into battery. Good.

Mic the cartridge at the neck and compare it to a known good round.
Give us the results.

and the slide, with two screwdrivers. It opened, I removed the round,
etc. I was careful enough to point it away from me etc.

A lesson for me, take tools to the gun range.

You dont? A range box is a necessity. Something to hold ammo,
shooting glasses and ear muffs, cleaning rod etc etc. A 50 cal can is
ok...though a 20 mm can is much bigger. There are a number of factory
made range boxes available. The MTM one is quite good.

http://www.mtmcase-gard.com/products...ng/acases.html

Mine (shooters accessory case) is nearly 20 yrs old, and though Ive
replaced the latches..it still gives me good service. It also allows
you to stack the
http://www.mtmcase-gard.com/products/shooting/gunm.html

which I STRONGLY recommend any rifle shooter owning. Organizes all
your swabs, brushes, rods, solvents and so forth in a nice neat easily
stored package that is handy as hell.

If you enjoy wood working..something like this is fun to make
http://www.cal-graf.com/rangeb.html


IRRC...Kmart and Walmart both sell a decent sized plastic range box
with compartments to hold bits and pieces. A tackle box may suit you
as well. So might a gym bag of good construction and some plastic
boxes from the 99c store.

I also use what is commonly known as a Salesmans Catalog
Case...similar to this

http://www.greenlightoffice.com/prod...?block=2017070

Particularly when shotgunning. I find them at the GoodWill and
Salvation arrmy stores fairly regularly for $5 or so. I normally go to
the range with the MTM case, and a catalog case. Tools and ammo etc go
in the MTM case, spotting scopes, 100 round ammo boxes, sandbags etc
go in the catalog case. If you find one of the catalog cases with
wheels on it..even better as you can tote both by simply putting the
MTM case on top, and pulling it out to the line or benchs.

I even have a hard sided catalog case with a complete reloading setup
that clamps to my shooting bench for load developement at the range.

Gunner


i

On 3 Oct 2005 17:25:55 -0700, rigger wrote:
Hi Iggy,

I think I've heard of this happening before and the solution was to
support the rear of the gun and, using softeners, tap downward on the
front of the slide.
The theory was this was less stress on the slide and related parts than
is caused by firing a round. I seem to remember it worked just fine.

Now it's been a while since I heard about this so take it with MANY
grains of salt, especially in the details. Good luck.

dennis
in nca


Confronting Liberals with the facts of reality is very much akin to
clubbing baby seals. It gets boring after a while, but because Liberals are
so stupid it is easy work." Steven M. Barry

On 3 Oct 2005 14:52:43 GMT, Dave Hinz wrote:

On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 14:21:16 GMT, Ignoramus1729 wrote:

I ****ed up. Tried to use 9x18 Makarov rounds in a Beretta 92FS. Never
actually fired the gun with that bullet, since it got stuck.

Both the 9x18 and 9x19 headspace on the neck, so your case is probably
1mm too far forward.

It jammed solid. The slide is perfectly stuck. Does not go forward or
backward. Releasing the slide release or magazine release does
nothing.


It's a diameter issue Dave. 9 Para are .356 and 9 Mak is .364 on
bullet diameter. Similar case differences too, although you're
correct that the Mak is 1mm shorter.

Careful tapping of a dowel rod might open it up. If you can't get it,
drive it over to your favorite gunsmith.

On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 23:28:52 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm,
Ignoramus1729 quickly quoth:

yep, from the mag... no, the gun was clean.

Was it well oiled?


The only gun that I am not
cleaning well is my AK-47.

What does Federal Room and Board cost you for that thing, Ig?

I know I went through 90 rounds in one in about 30 seconds at
the MG Shoot a couple years ago, so I'm not counting ammo. Yes,
I know that was a long time to go through that few rounds, but
I was seeing how it felt with single shots in SA mode, small
bursts in FA, and then let it loose, taking out the windshield
in the demo van downrange. What a hoot! Once I got used to the
rise from the FA fire (it leveled out after about 5 rounds),
it became much more tame to aim.

--
"Most Folks Are As Happy As They Make Up Their Minds To Be"
-Abraham Lincoln
-----------------------------------------------------------
www.diversify.com - Happy Website Development

On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 02:41:21 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm,
Ignoramus1729 quickly quoth:

On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 17:45:51 -0700, Larry Jaques novalidaddress@di wrote:
He did, but that's probably the extractor linked to it and hanging
up on the stuck brass. Doug's idea is what I'd try, with the chamber
opening away from me. Once the slug has slid into the brass, holding
the rifle upside down might (with the dowel or brass welding rod
against the slug for clearance) release the powder so it would be a
bit safer to more firmly tap the dowel.


that was actually a handgun with a straight case cartridge. I do not
like handguns much anymore and have not shot this one in quite a while.

9x18, Doh! I guess it was a pistol cartridge. I had seen reference to
the other you were shooting, 7.62x39, and got stuck there.

So, how much damage, if any, did the screwdrivers do? cringe

--
"Most Folks Are As Happy As They Make Up Their Minds To Be"
-Abraham Lincoln
-----------------------------------------------------------
www.diversify.com - Happy Website Development

On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 06:29:21 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 23:28:52 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm,
Ignoramus1729 quickly quoth:

yep, from the mag... no, the gun was clean.

Was it well oiled?


The only gun that I am not
cleaning well is my AK-47.

What does Federal Room and Board cost you for that thing, Ig?

I know I went through 90 rounds in one in about 30 seconds at
the MG Shoot a couple years ago, so I'm not counting ammo. Yes,
I know that was a long time to go through that few rounds, but
I was seeing how it felt with single shots in SA mode, small
bursts in FA, and then let it loose, taking out the windshield
in the demo van downrange. What a hoot! Once I got used to the
rise from the FA fire (it leveled out after about 5 rounds),
it became much more tame to aim.

Few AK-47s sold in the US are full auto. The legal ones are self
loading (semi auto) and are quite legal to own in most states
(California excepted)

Iggy should be aware that if he is shooting mil-surp or imported
ammo..he may be damageing his barrel and gas system by not rigourously
cleaning it as many of those are corrosive primed.

Gunner



Confronting Liberals with the facts of reality is very much akin to
clubbing baby seals. It gets boring after a while, but because Liberals are
so stupid it is easy work." Steven M. Barry

On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 13:49:03 GMT, Ignoramus29341
wrote:

IRRC...Kmart and Walmart both sell a decent sized plastic range box
with compartments to hold bits and pieces. A tackle box may suit you
as well. So might a gym bag of good construction and some plastic
boxes from the 99c store.

Thanks. I need to buy some rifle carrying cases also.

Kmart regularly runs specials on a very inexpensive blow moulded
plastic gun case. Its actually a very good deal and less than $10

Gunner

Confronting Liberals with the facts of reality is very much akin to
clubbing baby seals. It gets boring after a while, but because Liberals are
so stupid it is easy work." Steven M. Barry

On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 17:16:18 GMT, Ignoramus29341
wrote:

On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 17:13:42 GMT, Gunner wrote:
On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 06:29:21 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 23:28:52 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm,
Ignoramus1729 quickly quoth:

yep, from the mag... no, the gun was clean.

Was it well oiled?


The only gun that I am not
cleaning well is my AK-47.

What does Federal Room and Board cost you for that thing, Ig?

I know I went through 90 rounds in one in about 30 seconds at
the MG Shoot a couple years ago, so I'm not counting ammo. Yes,
I know that was a long time to go through that few rounds, but
I was seeing how it felt with single shots in SA mode, small
bursts in FA, and then let it loose, taking out the windshield
in the demo van downrange. What a hoot! Once I got used to the
rise from the FA fire (it leveled out after about 5 rounds),
it became much more tame to aim.

Few AK-47s sold in the US are full auto. The legal ones are self
loading (semi auto) and are quite legal to own in most states
(California excepted)

Iggy should be aware that if he is shooting mil-surp or imported
ammo..he may be damageing his barrel and gas system by not rigourously
cleaning it as many of those are corrosive primed.

I am positive that my ammo is not corrosive primed. I tried it before.

i


Pull a bullet and dump the powder. Spray a piece of clean steel with
brake cleaner. Holding the muzzle close to the steel, fire the primer.
Place the steel outdoors for a couple days and see where the rust
develops. Thats a decent enough test.

Gunner

Confronting Liberals with the facts of reality is very much akin to
clubbing baby seals. It gets boring after a while, but because Liberals are
so stupid it is easy work." Steven M. Barry

Ignoramus1729 wrote:

If I understand, the round is live? If so, see a gunsmith and make
sure you understand the transport rules in your area about
transporting a loaded firearm.


Well, the gun is on SAFE. It is not capable of firing even if I turned
safery to FIRE. Even if I turned safety to FIRE, the firing pin would
not protrude from the back. Also, the hammer could not hit it anyway
due to slide placement (the bottom of the slide would prevent the
hammer from striking the pin).

I am not terribly worried that the gun is about to go off, and not too
worried about transporting it, but I will try to make basic
precautions (such as driving slowly so as not to get stopped by cops).
Even if I was stopped by cops, I would be unlikely to be prosecuted
since the gun is not capable of firing. I really am not looking to
start a gun law discussion here.

I wasn't trying to start one, just wanted you to be aware incase you
lived in a very gun unfriendly State.


Wes S
NRA Life
MCRGO

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Whiskey Echo Sierra Sierra AT Alpha Charlie Echo Golf Romeo Oscar Paul dot Charlie Charlie
Lycos address is a spam trap.

On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 13:50:34 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm,
Ignoramus29341 quickly quoth:

On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 06:29:21 -0700, Larry Jaques novalidaddress@di wrote:
On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 23:28:52 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm,
Ignoramus1729 quickly quoth:

yep, from the mag... no, the gun was clean.

Was it well oiled?

I would suppose, I oiled it way back then.

....and it all ran off.


The only gun that I am not
cleaning well is my AK-47.

What does Federal Room and Board cost you for that thing, Ig?

I know I went through 90 rounds in one in about 30 seconds at
the MG Shoot a couple years ago, so I'm not counting ammo. Yes,
I know that was a long time to go through that few rounds, but
I was seeing how it felt with single shots in SA mode, small
bursts in FA, and then let it loose, taking out the windshield
in the demo van downrange. What a hoot! Once I got used to the
rise from the FA fire (it leveled out after about 5 rounds),
it became much more tame to aim.

Mine is semiautomatic... 100% legal...

Cool. Those are nice little weapons, though a bit on the heavy side.
Maybe they're lighter without the drum magazine on 'em.


--------------------------------------------------------
Murphy was an Optimist
----------------------------
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development

On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 23:38:49 GMT, Ignoramus29341 wrote:
On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 14:54:00 -0700, Larry Jaques novalidaddress@di wrote:

Cool. Those are nice little weapons, though a bit on the heavy side.
Maybe they're lighter without the drum magazine on 'em.

Trust me, they are too heavy with a drum magazine...

About that...how's a Thompson 1927a1 with a drum magazine? I'd expect
"heavy", but is it uncomfortably so? That's my current "toy fund" goal.