Just wondering if this is a widespread issue or if I'm expecting too much...

I knew I shouldn't have done this, but I purchased a Miller welder online
after contacting the local Miller guys via Miller's website "Request a
Quote/Availability" page. Several days later, they hadn't responded and I
even received an automated email from Miller asking if I had received a
response yet. So, I purchased the unit online. The day after ordering it,
I finally received a response from the local guys.

Well, after less than 20 minutes of welding, the machine dies on me. There
is only one Miller authorized dealer/service shop in town, and one more 45
miles away (both branches of the same business). The one in town says it
will take at least a week to even look at it, and the one 45 miles out
says at least 2 weeks. The place I purchased it from says I could pay
shipping to return it, and after they determine the welder is faulty and
covered under warranty, they will send a replacement, with a turn-around
of about 2 weeks.

I know I should have bought it locally (although it would have been $300
more), and should have called rather than use the online
quote/availability request (smaller town which is still sorta stuck in the
dark ages), but what kind of warranty service is that?

I know the commercial customers who spend tens of thousands of dollars at
the local store will get preference, but dang, I expected a little better
service than "we'll get to it in a week or so."

I've never had to have a welder serviced under warranty before. Is it
common to take so long? I can understand how they would place me as a low
priority customer since I didn't purchase the welder from them, even
though I buy consumables from them, but it doesn't make me feel any better
knowing I will be without the welder for at least a week, and it just
doesn't seem right to me since it is warranty work.

I had Miller waranty work done in Denver, I bought the welder from them,
I think I had 24 hour turn around. Lots of reasons possible for 7 day
turn around, ranging from somebody in the shop quit, understaffed, an
unusually large workload, you did not buy it from them, you are a small
customer, etc.

My position, for what it is worth, is that since you did not buy it from
them you have no right to complain. This may be a hidden downside of
buying off the internet. Obviously it is frustrating to have a new
piece of equipment break on the first day, so I have some sympathy.

One of the local RV dealers has a policy that they will not work on rigs
bought elsewhere anytime during the summer, so you might have to wait
months for service on a rig you bought out of state. During the winter
slow season, they will work on any rig, no matter who you bought it
from. That may seem like a hard policy, but they want to favor the
people who bought from them, and give those people good service, so it
kind of makes sense. Of course, I have no idea why your local Miller
shop quoted you a week turnaround.

Richard



me wrote:
Just wondering if this is a widespread issue or if I'm expecting too much...

I knew I shouldn't have done this, but I purchased a Miller welder online
after contacting the local Miller guys via Miller's website "Request a
Quote/Availability" page. Several days later, they hadn't responded and I
even received an automated email from Miller asking if I had received a
response yet. So, I purchased the unit online. The day after ordering it,
I finally received a response from the local guys.

Well, after less than 20 minutes of welding, the machine dies on me. There
is only one Miller authorized dealer/service shop in town, and one more 45
miles away (both branches of the same business). The one in town says it
will take at least a week to even look at it, and the one 45 miles out
says at least 2 weeks. The place I purchased it from says I could pay
shipping to return it, and after they determine the welder is faulty and
covered under warranty, they will send a replacement, with a turn-around
of about 2 weeks.

I know I should have bought it locally (although it would have been $300
more), and should have called rather than use the online
quote/availability request (smaller town which is still sorta stuck in the
dark ages), but what kind of warranty service is that?

I know the commercial customers who spend tens of thousands of dollars at
the local store will get preference, but dang, I expected a little better
service than "we'll get to it in a week or so."

I've never had to have a welder serviced under warranty before. Is it
common to take so long? I can understand how they would place me as a low
priority customer since I didn't purchase the welder from them, even
though I buy consumables from them, but it doesn't make me feel any better
knowing I will be without the welder for at least a week, and it just
doesn't seem right to me since it is warranty work.

"me" wrote in message
news |
| Just wondering if this is a widespread issue or if I'm expecting too
much...
|
| I knew I shouldn't have done this, but I purchased a Miller welder online
| after contacting the local Miller guys via Miller's website "Request a
| Quote/Availability" page. Several days later, they hadn't responded and I
| even received an automated email from Miller asking if I had received a
| response yet. So, I purchased the unit online. The day after ordering it,
| I finally received a response from the local guys.
|
| Well, after less than 20 minutes of welding, the machine dies on me. There
| is only one Miller authorized dealer/service shop in town, and one more 45
| miles away (both branches of the same business). The one in town says it
| will take at least a week to even look at it, and the one 45 miles out
| says at least 2 weeks. The place I purchased it from says I could pay
| shipping to return it, and after they determine the welder is faulty and
| covered under warranty, they will send a replacement, with a turn-around
| of about 2 weeks.
|
| I know I should have bought it locally (although it would have been $300
| more), and should have called rather than use the online
| quote/availability request (smaller town which is still sorta stuck in the
| dark ages), but what kind of warranty service is that?
|
| I know the commercial customers who spend tens of thousands of dollars at
| the local store will get preference, but dang, I expected a little better
| service than "we'll get to it in a week or so."
|
| I've never had to have a welder serviced under warranty before. Is it
| common to take so long? I can understand how they would place me as a low
| priority customer since I didn't purchase the welder from them, even
| though I buy consumables from them, but it doesn't make me feel any better
| knowing I will be without the welder for at least a week, and it just
| doesn't seem right to me since it is warranty work.

I'd have a sit down with the store manager (or better, the owner) and
explain why you did what you did. I suspect he'd be a little upset that his
store lost a sale because someone was being delinquent. If both of you,
after looking at the circumstances, come to the conclusion that the delay
was inevitable, he should still work with you to keep your business, because
he will understand your course of action. You are, after all, his paycheck
and it behooves him to keep you as his customer. These days you can buy
anything you want on line and completely skip the local brick and mortar
stores, and they know it all too well, especially with your recent purchase.
If he still isn't interested in keeping you happy, kindly explain that all
it takes is one unhappy customer to tell ten more who will no longer be
customers. Those ten more tell ten more. I'm sure as a business
owner/manager he's heard these rules before, but it may not be for his
benefit, it might be for the benefit of the employees who cost a sale.
Besides, as warranty work, he gets paid by the factory so there's
absolutely no skin off of his back.

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 02:28:42 +0000, Richard Ferguson wrote:

I had Miller waranty work done in Denver, I bought the welder from them,
I think I had 24 hour turn around. Lots of reasons possible for 7 day
turn around, ranging from somebody in the shop quit, understaffed, an
unusually large workload, you did not buy it from them, you are a small
customer, etc.

It is simply because I didn't buy it from them. I was even told so by
the technician when I went back to drop off the welder.

And it wasn't stated to be a 7-day turnaround, rather 7 days before they
would even look at it.

My position, for what it is worth, is that since you did not buy it from
them you have no right to complain.

Oh heck, I have every right to complain, I may just have little to no
right to have my grievances addressed.

This may be a hidden downside of
buying off the internet. Obviously it is frustrating to have a new
piece of equipment break on the first day, so I have some sympathy.

And I had even given this serious thought before I went ahead and bought
it online anyway. At the time I did order it, price wasn't even an issue
because I hadn't received a response from them requesting a price. I guess
I was a little peeved that they wouldn't even bother responding. I think
their service just stinks because they have no competition in town. That
would explain the lackadaisical response to my quote/availability request.

One of the local RV dealers has a policy that they will not work on rigs
bought elsewhere anytime during the summer, so you might have to wait
months for service on a rig you bought out of state. During the winter
slow season, they will work on any rig, no matter who you bought it
from. That may seem like a hard policy, but they want to favor the
people who bought from them, and give those people good service, so it
kind of makes sense. Of course, I have no idea why your local Miller
shop quoted you a week turnaround.

Yes, the RV situation you described makes perfect sense if the repairs are
not under warranty and that's the way the owner wishes to do business. If
it's warranty work, and they are a factory-authorized dealer/service
shop, it seems a little more like extortion.

Richard

Where in Denver did you buy/service the welder? I make semi-frequent trips
there and may consider taking my little bit of business elsewhere (will be
needing an AC tig in the not too distant future).

Thanks.

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 02:51:03 +0000, carl mciver wrote:
I'd have a sit down with the store manager (or better, the owner) and
explain why you did what you did. I suspect he'd be a little upset that his
store lost a sale because someone was being delinquent. If both of you,
after looking at the circumstances, come to the conclusion that the delay
was inevitable, he should still work with you to keep your business, because
he will understand your course of action. You are, after all, his paycheck
and it behooves him to keep you as his customer. These days you can buy
anything you want on line and completely skip the local brick and mortar
stores, and they know it all too well, especially with your recent purchase.
If he still isn't interested in keeping you happy, kindly explain that all
it takes is one unhappy customer to tell ten more who will no longer be
customers. Those ten more tell ten more. I'm sure as a business
owner/manager he's heard these rules before, but it may not be for his
benefit, it might be for the benefit of the employees who cost a sale.
Besides, as warranty work, he gets paid by the factory so there's
absolutely no skin off of his back.

That's my biggest peeve--warranty work should be warranty work. They
should be at risk for losing their factory-authorization for postponing
warranty repairs because they were purchased elsewhere.

Well, when I went back to drop off the welder, the manager was standing
there at the counter with the counter person and we discussed the issue a
little bit. I basically told them that I realize I am being made to wait
since I bought it elsewhere (the counter person agreed), and I could live
with that (like I had a choice), but in my defense I did try to get a
request from their shop first and didn't receive a timely response. At
that point the manager did become interested in the conversation.

Unfortunately, the counter person quickly stepped back in giving excuses
for why it took so long to get a response. He was blowing smoke up my @$$
at that point talking about how it takes so long for the message to go
through Miller's central office and then sent out to the store (like
there's some guy manually retyping the requests, looking up addresses in
an email book, and then forwarding them on only from 9 til noon, 4 days
a week or something). Rather than argue with the guy and remind them that
I received an email from Miller several days later asking if I had
received a reply yet, a day before actually getting a reply, I thought it
best to hold my tongue if I ever wanted to see my welder work again.

Also unfortunate, was that the store is part of a small chain so the
owner(s) is/are more than 200 miles away, and they have no competition for
over 40 miles around. Yes, the manager did seem to be concerned that he
had lost the sale of a welder, but I got the impression that he wasn't
going to lose any sleep over it.

Live and learn. My next big purchase may be semi-local. I definitely won't
purchase a welder over the internet again, but if the repair of this
welder takes 2 weeks or more, I won't be giving them any business (not to
mention that if this Miller breaks again 20 minutes after I get it back,
I'll be looking for a different manufacturer anyway).

I would suggest that you not feel guilty about buying the welder over
the Internet....it is here to stay and will be the main method of
purchase in the future. There are many businesses that are learning a
hard lesson when it comes to competitive sales and timely support after
the sales because of changing buying patterns.

The dealer being a factory authorized dealer/repair depot is on the
hook to do the warranty work. Their foot draggin is a thinly veiled
attempt to punish you for not paying hundreds of dollars more to them
for the welder. You may also want to realize that they get paid less
for factory warranty work than for what they charge for out of warranty
shop time. This means no one will fall over themselves to put warranty
work ahead of a better paying job whether or not you had bought the
welder from them. I would have a discussion with owner noting that you
expect the warranty work to be on a timely basis and make it clear to
him that Milller is in the loop as to knowing when and how it will be
done. And just so you don't feel singled out, Miller/Lincoln are having
a difficult time with their support centers because of the transisition
to a more competitive sales environment where the "we've always done it
this way" shops are dragging their feet. As their monopoly of the local
markets slowly slips away (welder purchases on Internet, gas supplies
at Home Depot/TSC), you will see the less responsive shops close.

TMT

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com...
SNIP
I would have a discussion with owner noting that you
| expect the warranty work to be on a timely basis and make it clear to
| him that Milller is in the loop as to knowing when and how it will be
| done.

Key word is "owner" not manager. The owner I KNOW sees the impact the
internet has on his business, so perhaps he needs to explain that to his
store manager.

me wrote:
....
I know I should have bought it locally (although it would have been $300
more), ...

Oh, don't beat yourself up over this. $300 is a lot of money and you
made the *right* decision. Maybe it turned out wrong, but you couldn't
expect it. $billions are spent on 'net purchases and mostly it works
out. I bought my welder on the net and if it had been bad I don't think
that I would have regretted the purchase. Yours was just bad luck, not
a bad decision.

Bob

Actually I suspect it is not "bad luck".

Both Lincoln and Miller have been higher "Dead Out Of The Box" rates on
their products.

Pushing their employees ( to meet production goals to the point where
quality control is suffering) to pay off those acquisitions of a few
years ago might have something to do with it.

The point about talking directly to the OWNER and not the manager is
well taken.

TMT

me wrote in news
I will 100% agree with the guy who said to explain to the OWNER that the
sole reason you bought the welder online is because you never received a
TIMELY RESPONSE from his employees when you inquired about the welder.
Do this to the owner of the store, not the manager.


--
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email

http://www.machines-cnc.net:81/

Hey ME,

Well, I think maybe you should consider the time it took the local guy
to reply in the first place. I understand "the day after ordering
it" to be one day. But how long is "Several days"? If all these days
you mention add up to one week or more, then maybe they are not trying
to "diss" you by saying they can't look for "at least a week", but
merely being truthful about their work schedule.

I do think that had I been you, I would have gone directly to the
local dealer on day one, instead of using the Miller RTQ page. I
assume (and it appears so from your text) that Miller merely passes it
along to the nearest ZIP code local dealer to you, for that dealer to
reply with a price. I also know that any really good business will
give you better service in person face-to-face than via a phone call
or email. They could spend the next ten years giving over-the-net
on-line quotes to mere tire-kickers, and go broke providing the very
best service at doing that.

Try walking in the front door and see how it goes. Hey, who knows,
you night even get a loaner, or a break from Miller on a rental, until
yours is fixed.

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 21:11:35 -0500, me wrote:


Just wondering if this is a widespread issue or if I'm expecting too much...

I knew I shouldn't have done this, but I purchased a Miller welder online
after contacting the local Miller guys via Miller's website "Request a
Quote/Availability" page. Several days later, they hadn't responded and I
even received an automated email from Miller asking if I had received a
response yet. So, I purchased the unit online. The day after ordering it,
I finally received a response from the local guys.

Well, after less than 20 minutes of welding, the machine dies on me. There
is only one Miller authorized dealer/service shop in town, and one more 45
miles away (both branches of the same business). The one in town says it
will take at least a week to even look at it, and the one 45 miles out
says at least 2 weeks. The place I purchased it from says I could pay
shipping to return it, and after they determine the welder is faulty and
covered under warranty, they will send a replacement, with a turn-around
of about 2 weeks.

I know I should have bought it locally (although it would have been $300
more), and should have called rather than use the online
quote/availability request (smaller town which is still sorta stuck in the
dark ages), but what kind of warranty service is that?

I know the commercial customers who spend tens of thousands of dollars at
the local store will get preference, but dang, I expected a little better
service than "we'll get to it in a week or so."

I've never had to have a welder serviced under warranty before. Is it
common to take so long? I can understand how they would place me as a low
priority customer since I didn't purchase the welder from them, even
though I buy consumables from them, but it doesn't make me feel any better
knowing I will be without the welder for at least a week, and it just
doesn't seem right to me since it is warranty work.

I would let Miller know the story real quick! Let them know that store is
giving Miller a bad name for waranty repairs.
"me" wrote in message
news

Just wondering if this is a widespread issue or if I'm expecting too
much...

I knew I shouldn't have done this, but I purchased a Miller welder online
after contacting the local Miller guys via Miller's website "Request a
Quote/Availability" page. Several days later, they hadn't responded and I
even received an automated email from Miller asking if I had received a
response yet. So, I purchased the unit online. The day after ordering it,
I finally received a response from the local guys.

Well, after less than 20 minutes of welding, the machine dies on me. There
is only one Miller authorized dealer/service shop in town, and one more 45
miles away (both branches of the same business). The one in town says it
will take at least a week to even look at it, and the one 45 miles out
says at least 2 weeks. The place I purchased it from says I could pay
shipping to return it, and after they determine the welder is faulty and
covered under warranty, they will send a replacement, with a turn-around
of about 2 weeks.

I know I should have bought it locally (although it would have been $300
more), and should have called rather than use the online
quote/availability request (smaller town which is still sorta stuck in the
dark ages), but what kind of warranty service is that?

I know the commercial customers who spend tens of thousands of dollars at
the local store will get preference, but dang, I expected a little better
service than "we'll get to it in a week or so."

I've never had to have a welder serviced under warranty before. Is it
common to take so long? I can understand how they would place me as a low
priority customer since I didn't purchase the welder from them, even
though I buy consumables from them, but it doesn't make me feel any better
knowing I will be without the welder for at least a week, and it just
doesn't seem right to me since it is warranty work.

me wrote:
Just wondering if this is a widespread issue or if I'm expecting too much...

I knew I shouldn't have done this, but I purchased a Miller welder online
after contacting the local Miller guys via Miller's website "Request a
Quote/Availability" page. Several days later, they hadn't responded and I
even received an automated email from Miller asking if I had received a
response yet. So, I purchased the unit online. The day after ordering it,
I finally received a response from the local guys.

Well, after less than 20 minutes of welding, the machine dies on me. There
is only one Miller authorized dealer/service shop in town, and one more 45
miles away (both branches of the same business). The one in town says it
will take at least a week to even look at it, and the one 45 miles out
says at least 2 weeks. The place I purchased it from says I could pay
shipping to return it, and after they determine the welder is faulty and
covered under warranty, they will send a replacement, with a turn-around
of about 2 weeks.

I know I should have bought it locally (although it would have been $300
more), and should have called rather than use the online
quote/availability request (smaller town which is still sorta stuck in the
dark ages), but what kind of warranty service is that?

I know the commercial customers who spend tens of thousands of dollars at
the local store will get preference, but dang, I expected a little better
service than "we'll get to it in a week or so."

I've never had to have a welder serviced under warranty before. Is it
common to take so long? I can understand how they would place me as a low
priority customer since I didn't purchase the welder from them, even
though I buy consumables from them, but it doesn't make me feel any better
knowing I will be without the welder for at least a week, and it just
doesn't seem right to me since it is warranty work.

I think maybe you should consider one more possible detail . Maybe it
has nothing to do with where you bought it , maybe just maybe they are
that busy . Before I contacted Miller slamming the local dealers I would
go talk to them . I know frustrating but fair . If they do not choose to
also be fair then go to Miller . Luck
Ken Cutt

I did a little asking around before I laid out money for an engine
welder, 40 years ago. Without exception I was told that Miller welders
were definitely lightweights that wouldn't hold up under use. I finally
chose a Hobart over Lincoln because of local availabilty. I sold that
welder this summer, still in excellent condition, to a commercial
welder. He is very happy with it.
Any local company that treated me like you were treated would never see
another penny of my money, and I would make sure that everyone I know
had the same information.
The company I bought the welder from was my primary supplier for over
40 years. Several other welding suppliers opened up and went broke
using the same policies you described about your Miller dealer.
Bugs

First of all, doing "warranty" work for large companies isn't the
"gravy" that it was 20 years ago... companies like Mercury Marine, Yamaha,
Polaris (and probably Miller) have cut way back on the amount of time/money
they will "allow" the dealer to fix your stuff under warranty.
You can make the flat-rate... if it doesn't take a lot of
trouble-shooting to figure out what's wrong and you're right the first time.
If it's an "intermittent" problem... or two or three things conspiring
together; you lose your a$$ on the warranty claim.
I can see why a dealer would be reluctant to push aside "paying"
customers' repair work so they could work on a "warranty" claim. They would
rather do that (required) low-profit work when they have nothing else going
on... as "filler" work.
Second, the internet isn't such a great place to buy welders. I shopped
online, checked e-bay, and called my local Miller rep when I bought my TIG.
Even though there were low "advertised" prices online... the local rep
delivered my TIG to my front door for about $200 less than the best online
deal I could find.
Then, when I went in to get my gas bottle and extra consumables... he
gave me a fist-full of mild steel, stainless, and aluminum filler rods in
various sizes; so I could try them all and decide what I liked best. Not a
huge deal, maybe 2 pounds of rods... but something the internet guys
wouldn't/couldn't do.
Finally, he also gave me 30-days to pay for all of the stuff (including
the welder) and loaded the gas bottle onto my truck for me! ;-}
David



http://pstuning.com/ "Too_Many_Tools" wrote in
message ups.com...
I would suggest that you not feel guilty about buying the welder over
the Internet....it is here to stay and will be the main method of
purchase in the future. There are many businesses that are learning a
hard lesson when it comes to competitive sales and timely support after
the sales because of changing buying patterns.

The dealer being a factory authorized dealer/repair depot is on the
hook to do the warranty work. Their foot draggin is a thinly veiled
attempt to punish you for not paying hundreds of dollars more to them
for the welder. You may also want to realize that they get paid less
for factory warranty work than for what they charge for out of warranty
shop time. This means no one will fall over themselves to put warranty
work ahead of a better paying job whether or not you had bought the
welder from them. I would have a discussion with owner noting that you
expect the warranty work to be on a timely basis and make it clear to
him that Milller is in the loop as to knowing when and how it will be
done. And just so you don't feel singled out, Miller/Lincoln are having
a difficult time with their support centers because of the transisition
to a more competitive sales environment where the "we've always done it
this way" shops are dragging their feet. As their monopoly of the local
markets slowly slips away (welder purchases on Internet, gas supplies
at Home Depot/TSC), you will see the less responsive shops close.

TMT

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 20:17:32 +0000, carl mciver wrote:

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com...
SNIP
I would have a discussion with owner noting that you
| expect the warranty work to be on a timely basis and make it clear to
| him that Milller is in the loop as to knowing when and how it will be
| done.

Key word is "owner" not manager. The owner I KNOW sees the impact
the
internet has on his business, so perhaps he needs to explain that to his
store manager.

After looking into it, the company that owns this store/shop (as well as
other branches, as mentioned previously) is actually incorporated, and a
little bigger than I had thought, so its not as simple as popping by the
store and asking to speak to the owner.

As it stands now, I will wait a week and see how the welder is coming
along. If it is finished in just over a week, I'll let it go at that and
take my future business elsewhere (although elsewhere means 40miles
away). If they are still giving me the runaround well after a week, I will
contact the regional manager as well as Miller and see where it goes from
there (not too far, I expect...).

Thanks to everyone for their input!!

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 18:46:02 -0400, Brian Lawson wrote:

Hey ME,

Well, I think maybe you should consider the time it took the local guy
to reply in the first place. I understand "the day after ordering
it" to be one day. But how long is "Several days"? If all these days
you mention add up to one week or more, then maybe they are not trying
to "diss" you by saying they can't look for "at least a week", but
merely being truthful about their work schedule.

You know, I really try to give people the benefit of the doubt, and would
like to think that the week before looking at it is simply because they
are busy/understaffed. Unfortunately, that is difficult to do when the
counter person actually told me that if I had bought it there, they could
have gotten it in "right away."

I do think that had I been you, I would have gone directly to the local
dealer on day one, instead of using the Miller RTQ page. I assume (and
it appears so from your text) that Miller merely passes it along to the
nearest ZIP code local dealer to you, for that dealer to reply with a
price.

Yes, after selecting the desired model(s) and inputting the zip code,
Miller's site lets you select one or more dealers from a list based on
location. They then pass the request on to the selected dealer(s).

I also know that any really good business will give you better service
in person face-to-face than via a phone call or email. They could spend
the next ten years giving over-the-net on-line quotes to mere
tire-kickers, and go broke providing the very best service at doing that.

Yes, if I could turn back the clock and do it again, I would have walked
in and asked for a quote. The fact is that I didn't. Miller offers the
online service for potential customers to use, and I tried to take
advantage of it. I may be surprised at the actual numbers, but how many
requests from tire-kickers do you think this shop in a town of 30K people
receives? Somehow I don't think there are alot of people surfing Miller's
website, requesting quotes just for kicks, and of those few warped
individuals who have nothing better to do, I doubt many would actually
select this store in the middle of nowhere. (I'm not trying to be a
smart-@$$ here, I simply doubt that they have ever received more than a
small handful of bogus requests.)

Try walking in the front door and see how it goes. Hey, who knows, you
night even get a loaner, or a break from Miller on a rental, until yours
is fixed.

Every contact that I have had with this business, except for the single
quote request, has been in person. There was no offer for a loaner,
although I didn't specifically ask. I know they wouldn't have had a loaner
of the same or similar model though, since they told me they've never had
one in the shop before, for sale or repair.

Take care.

Likewise...


Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com...
snip----

As their monopoly of the local
markets slowly slips away (welder purchases on Internet, gas supplies
at Home Depot/TSC), you will see the less responsive shops close.

TMT


As they should. I'm sick to death of businesses, any of them, thinking
they have their customers at a disadvantage and refuse to provide what
constitutes good and expedient service and fair value. I've stopped doing
business with several firms of late, due mostly to their indifference to the
treatment customers receive, to say nothing of the lower quality for more
money concept the younger generation seems to find so appealing. The
"bottom line" concept, where they feel they must make a profit at all costs,
including selling used oats for the price on new, fresh ones.

Harold

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
Actually I suspect it is not "bad luck".

Both Lincoln and Miller have been higher "Dead Out Of The Box" rates on
their products.

Pushing their employees ( to meet production goals to the point where
quality control is suffering) to pay off those acquisitions of a few
years ago might have something to do with it.

Am I misinformed? I am under the impression Lincoln is employee owned.
If that be the case, I'd think they would be interested in turning out
quality items. Don't have a clue about Miller.

Harold

On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 21:11:35 -0500, me wrote:


Just wondering if this is a widespread issue or if I'm expecting too much...

I knew I shouldn't have done this, but I purchased a Miller welder online
after contacting the local Miller guys via Miller's website "Request a
Quote/Availability" page. Several days later, they hadn't responded and I
even received an automated email from Miller asking if I had received a
response yet. So, I purchased the unit online. The day after ordering it,
I finally received a response from the local guys.

How many days is "several days"?

In business to business relationships, which includes the purchase of
industrial machinery like welders, a written response to a Request For
Quote (RFQ) within ten days is considered prompt if no deadline for
response is specified. Did you give them sufficient time to respond
before making your purchasing decision?

As a courtesy, it is common business practise to advise, IN WRITING,
those who took the time to respond to your RFQ, why you chose to do
business with someone else, with copies of this communication being
sent to the local sales office, the headoffice, and in some cases, the
manufacturer of the industrial equipment in question -- it helps them
to get their act together and not screw up their next sale.
Is your local dealer fully aware as to why he lost the sale?

Verbal complaints don't count because the constructive criticism
quickly degenerates into a "He said", "She said", scenario, with no
documented proof of who said what. People in a position to quickly
address your complaint do not base their decisions on hearsay; they
want documented evidence that there is a problem before they act.

The clerk manning the sales counter is in no position to tell his boss
to change corporate policy, but he will drop your letter of complaint
on the presidents desk.

Put yourself in the shoes of the clerk and think about it.


Well, after less than 20 minutes of welding, the machine dies on me.

This, now, is a separate issue from your purchasing decision.

There
is only one Miller authorized dealer/service shop in town, and one more 45
miles away (both branches of the same business). The one in town says it
will take at least a week to even look at it, and the one 45 miles out
says at least 2 weeks. The place I purchased it from says I could pay
shipping to return it, and after they determine the welder is faulty and
covered under warranty, they will send a replacement, with a turn-around
of about 2 weeks.

I know I should have bought it locally (although it would have been $300
more), and should have called rather than use the online
quote/availability request (smaller town which is still sorta stuck in the
dark ages), but what kind of warranty service is that?

Where you purchased it is totally irrelevant. The warranty issue is
between you and Miller.

Quoting from their warranty found he
http://www.millerwelds.com/pdf/warranty.pdf

"Miller will repair or replace any warranted parts or components that
fail due to such defects in material or workmanship. Miller must be
notified in writing within thirty (30) days of such defect or failure,
at which time Miller will provide instructions on the warranty claim
procedures to be followed."

Did you notify Miller IN WRITING?

"Miller’s option of repair or replacement will be F.O.B., Factory at
Appleton, Wisconsin, or F.O.B. at a Miller authorized service facility
as determined by Miller."

See that "as determined by Miller" part? What "instructions" did they
give you? Where are you supposed to take the machine for repair?


I know the commercial customers who spend tens of thousands of dollars at
the local store will get preference, but dang, I expected a little better
service than "we'll get to it in a week or so."

Quoting from their warranty page found he
http://www.millerwelds.com/service/warranty.html

"We understand that you need your machine as soon as possible. That is
why we ensure a quick and reliable response, every time. Miller's
Signature Service program guarantees to ship all available warranty
items to your Miller service distributor's hands within 24 hours."

This suggests a service turn-around of 24 hours. It does not take two
weeks to open the case up and to replace a printed circuit board. If
Miller sent you to this outfit for repair service, then it is time for
you to look up Miller's contact info he
http://www.millerwelds.com/service/contactus.html
and to squawk to them about the discrepancy between a "2 week
turn-around" and their promise of a "quick and reliable response,
every time."


I've never had to have a welder serviced under warranty before. Is it
common to take so long? I can understand how they would place me as a low
priority customer since I didn't purchase the welder from them, even
though I buy consumables from them, but it doesn't make me feel any better
knowing I will be without the welder for at least a week, and it just
doesn't seem right to me since it is warranty work.

Where you purchased your machine has nothing to do with it.
The factors a

a) Where does Miller want the machine to be repaired? Locally, or at
the factory?

It takes a while for the machine to travel back and forth across the
continent for repair at the factory.

b) Which dealer are you "dancing" with?

The last time I looked, Miller had different classes of dealers: "sell
and repair", "sell only", "repair only", "rental", "on-line", etc.
The "sell only" types send everything back to the factory for repair.
The "sell and repair" types repair locally.

c) Where do you live?

As the cost of fuel rises, instead of providing daily service, truck
freight companies are beginning to service small towns once per week,
or when there is a full truck load to pickup or deliver, which ever
comes first. Even if Miller repairs your machine overnight, if you
live in a small town, your machine may sit for one week in a freight
consolidation warehouse on its way out until there is a full truck
load to ship out, and for one week in the same freight consolidation
warehouse on it way back, until there is a full truckload to deliver
to your town, for a total of 2 weeks turn-around.

You need to squawk to Miller IN WRITING and make it clear to them that
you find a two week turn-around time for repair of an industrial
machine is unacceptable. Nothing will change until you make your
dissatisfaction known to them.

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 20:56:50 -0700, the opaque "Harold and Susan
Vordos" clearly wrote:

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
snip----

As their monopoly of the local
markets slowly slips away (welder purchases on Internet, gas supplies
at Home Depot/TSC), you will see the less responsive shops close.

As they should. I'm sick to death of businesses, any of them, thinking
they have their customers at a disadvantage and refuse to provide what
constitutes good and expedient service and fair value.

Ditto that.


I've stopped doing
business with several firms of late, due mostly to their indifference to the
treatment customers receive, to say nothing of the lower quality for more
money concept the younger generation seems to find so appealing. The
"bottom line" concept, where they feel they must make a profit at all costs,

I hope you tell these bozos precisely why you stopped shopping there.
I used to think they'd catch on. Now I know better, and if we don't
tell them, they'll just -continue- to screw people. Let them know
why you won't be back as you walk out their door for the last time.


including selling used oats for the price on new, fresh ones.

Eons ago, in another life as a QA inspector, I ran across a quote
which I think might have spurred your statement there, Harold.
It tickled me pink.

"Quality is like buying oats. If you want nice, clean, fresh oats,
you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats
that have already passed through the horse, the price is a little
cheaper."


================================================== ========
CAUTION: Do NOT look directly into laser with remaining eyeball!
================================================== ========
http://www.diversify.com Comprehensive Website Design

My Miller dealer is General Air in Denver. I have dealt with their
offices in Boulder and Denver, as well as the repair shop N of Denver.
My experience is that they are good to do business with, cheaper than
the competition.

Richard


me wrote:
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 02:28:42 +0000, Richard Ferguson wrote:


I had Miller waranty work done in Denver, I bought the welder from them,
I think I had 24 hour turn around. Lots of reasons possible for 7 day
turn around, ranging from somebody in the shop quit, understaffed, an
unusually large workload, you did not buy it from them, you are a small
customer, etc.


It is simply because I didn't buy it from them. I was even told so by
the technician when I went back to drop off the welder.

And it wasn't stated to be a 7-day turnaround, rather 7 days before they
would even look at it.


My position, for what it is worth, is that since you did not buy it from
them you have no right to complain.


Oh heck, I have every right to complain, I may just have little to no
right to have my grievances addressed.


This may be a hidden downside of
buying off the internet. Obviously it is frustrating to have a new
piece of equipment break on the first day, so I have some sympathy.


And I had even given this serious thought before I went ahead and bought
it online anyway. At the time I did order it, price wasn't even an issue
because I hadn't received a response from them requesting a price. I guess
I was a little peeved that they wouldn't even bother responding. I think
their service just stinks because they have no competition in town. That
would explain the lackadaisical response to my quote/availability request.


One of the local RV dealers has a policy that they will not work on rigs
bought elsewhere anytime during the summer, so you might have to wait
months for service on a rig you bought out of state. During the winter
slow season, they will work on any rig, no matter who you bought it
from. That may seem like a hard policy, but they want to favor the
people who bought from them, and give those people good service, so it
kind of makes sense. Of course, I have no idea why your local Miller
shop quoted you a week turnaround.


Yes, the RV situation you described makes perfect sense if the repairs are
not under warranty and that's the way the owner wishes to do business. If
it's warranty work, and they are a factory-authorized dealer/service
shop, it seems a little more like extortion.


Richard


Where in Denver did you buy/service the welder? I make semi-frequent trips
there and may consider taking my little bit of business elsewhere (will be
needing an AC tig in the not too distant future).

Thanks.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 20:56:50 -0700, the opaque "Harold and Susan
Vordos" clearly wrote:

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
snip----

As their monopoly of the local
markets slowly slips away (welder purchases on Internet, gas supplies
at Home Depot/TSC), you will see the less responsive shops close.

As they should. I'm sick to death of businesses, any of them, thinking
they have their customers at a disadvantage and refuse to provide what
constitutes good and expedient service and fair value.

Ditto that.


I've stopped doing
business with several firms of late, due mostly to their indifference to
the
treatment customers receive, to say nothing of the lower quality for
more
money concept the younger generation seems to find so appealing. The
"bottom line" concept, where they feel they must make a profit at all
costs,

I hope you tell these bozos precisely why you stopped shopping there.
I used to think they'd catch on. Now I know better, and if we don't
tell them, they'll just -continue- to screw people. Let them know
why you won't be back as you walk out their door for the last time.


including selling used oats for the price on new, fresh ones.

Eons ago, in another life as a QA inspector, I ran across a quote
which I think might have spurred your statement there, Harold.
It tickled me pink.

"Quality is like buying oats. If you want nice, clean, fresh oats,
you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats
that have already passed through the horse, the price is a little
cheaper."

Yep! Shades of my youth. Hayes Bros. Buick, In Salt Lake City, had just
such an item posted on the wall at the parts counter. It must have really
made an impact on me, for I remember (and often quote) it to this day.
Mind you, I'm one of the people that remembers almost nothing
trivial-------including the way to get back home. g

Harold

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:52:57 -0700, the opaque "Harold and Susan
Vordos" clearly wrote:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
"Quality is like buying oats. If you want nice, clean, fresh oats,
you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats
that have already passed through the horse, the price is a little
cheaper."

Yep! Shades of my youth. Hayes Bros. Buick, In Salt Lake City, had just
such an item posted on the wall at the parts counter. It must have really
made an impact on me, for I remember (and often quote) it to this day.

I printed that and put it on the wall above the shipping bench. I was
one of 2 shipping and receiving inspectors.


Mind you, I'm one of the people that remembers almost nothing
trivial-------including the way to get back home. g

Which reminds me of the Alzheimers joke.

An 80-year-old man walks into a bar, sits down, and starts crying.
The bartender asks,"What's wrong?" The old man looks at the bartender
through teary eyes and between sobs says, "I married a beautiful woman
two days ago . She's a natural blonde, twenty-five, intelligent, a
marvelous cook, a meticulous housekeeper, extremely sensitive to my
wants and needs, very giving, my best friend, and intensely passionate
in bed."

The bartender stares at the old man for a brief moment and says, "But
that sounds great! You have what every man wants in a woman, so why
are you crying?"

The old man looks at the bartender and says, "I can't remember where I
live!"

--
Like they say, 99% of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
------------------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Lawyer-free Website Development

On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:52:57 -0700, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .


"Quality is like buying oats. If you want nice, clean, fresh oats,
you must pay a fair price. However, if you can be satisfied with oats
that have already passed through the horse, the price is a little
cheaper."

Yep! Shades of my youth. Hayes Bros. Buick, In Salt Lake City, had just
such an item posted on the wall at the parts counter. It must have really
made an impact on me, for I remember (and often quote) it to this day.
Mind you, I'm one of the people that remembers almost nothing
trivial-------including the way to get back home. g


I've still got the old plaque with that saying which was hung on the
wall of office at the slaughter plant where I grew up (my dad bought
the local slaughter plant when I was 5 years old).

Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm

I am under the impression Lincoln is employee owned.

These days, employee owned just means the line guys have a
few shares that might be worth something some day, but what
they do seldom seems to have any effect on the price either
way, so who cares?

It seems that it has more effect on the the mindset of the
other people buying that comapany's stock than it does on
the employees themselves.

Just another piece of MBA-devised voodoo handwaving meant
to make the "street" feel good while executive managaement
is off playing with the books.

What, me, cynical? :^/

--Glenn Lyford

"Speechless" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 21:11:35 -0500, me wrote:


Just wondering if this is a widespread issue or if I'm expecting too
much...

I knew I shouldn't have done this, but I purchased a Miller welder online
after contacting the local Miller guys via Miller's website "Request a
Quote/Availability" page. Several days later, they hadn't responded and I
even received an automated email from Miller asking if I had received a
response yet. So, I purchased the unit online. The day after ordering it,
I finally received a response from the local guys.

How many days is "several days"?

In business to business relationships, which includes the purchase of
industrial machinery like welders, a written response to a Request For
Quote (RFQ) within ten days is considered prompt if no deadline for
response is specified. Did you give them sufficient time to respond
before making your purchasing decision?

I would assume that sending and receiving such a request by snail mail, the
ten day turnaround might be considered reasonable, but, in today's world,
where email is almost instantaneous, I'd use the slow (or no) response as an
accurate measure of a commercial firm's interest in its customers. If
nothing else, a quick response of "we received your inquiry and will provide
a proper response in xx hours or days" would have shown that they are
keenly interested in providing good and proper service to those that may
choose to do business with them, and they welcomed the business.

Looks like, at least to me, the "response" he received from the local store
is in keeping with their less than good service---------sort of a "to hell
with the potential customer----we'll show him that he made the right choice
by not doing business with us".

What better way to have convinced this buyer to do business with them than
to have bent over backwards to assure his machine was back in business
quickly, rather than resorting to high school games of making him sorry.
I'd not do business with people with that mindset, even if it cost me more
to go elsewhere. Those damned fools should have been working hard to get
him back, which would have been more what I'd have expected if they were
interested in their customers. He did the right thing avoiding doing
business with them, as would others. From the sound of this problem,
that's one business that should fail, and the sooner, the better.


As a courtesy, it is common business practise to advise, IN WRITING,
those who took the time to respond to your RFQ, why you chose to do
business with someone else, with copies of this communication being
sent to the local sales office, the headoffice, and in some cases, the
manufacturer of the industrial equipment in question -- it helps them
to get their act together and not screw up their next sale.
Is your local dealer fully aware as to why he lost the sale?

Interesting concept, but one I've never encountered. I spent 16 years
bidding on work for my shop and don't recall *ever* receiving a notice from
even one buyer that he had placed his order with a different shop. It
may be a polite way to do business, but it's not practiced where I came from

Harold

First, thanks to everyone for their advice/information.

As one poster noted, the warranty does state that Miller needs to be
notified of problems in writing and only then will Miller decide what is
to be done with the welder to get it serviced under warranty. Well, I
contacted Miller via email, and the reply stated that taking it to the
authorized service agent was the correct thing to do.

Weird. The warranty states in writing one thing, and emailing a warranty
request to Miller gives you a different answer. My guess is that it is
standard practice to simply take it to the shop, and the requirement for a
written notification to Miller may be there to create a loophole that
Miller could use at its discretion to deny warranty claims. (too cynical?)

Another comment in the email reply surprised me. Miller's stand regarding
warranty service is that any shop that did not sell the unit is "not
technically obligated to service it." This information was not given as a
reply to a specific question or comment, but rather added by the author of
the email when the service record for my welder was checked, and it was
shown that the welder was purchased from a dealer in one state, and is
currently being serviced in another.

So, it would be perfectly acceptable, per Miller's policy, for an
authorized service agent to flat-out refuse warranty service to Miller
equipment purchased elsewhere.

Had I known this before ordering the unit, two things would have been
different: I would not have even considered buying a Miller welder online,
and I would have leaned away from even getting a Miller, looking into
getting a Lincoln/Hobart/ESAB instead. (I would have favored the other
manufacturers even more heavily had I known the Miller was going to die
after about 20 minutes of use.)

The reply from Miller also leads me to believe that the discussion I had
with the counter person and manager about why I purchased it elsewhere may
have helped my cause somewhat. The service record for the welder
apparently shows the shop had ordered a part yesterday, so they didn't
wait a week to look at it after all. Either the discussion helped, or
the tech was extremely bored.

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:49:39 -0500, me wrote:

First, thanks to everyone for their advice/information.

As one poster noted, the warranty does state that Miller needs to be
notified of problems in writing and only then will Miller decide what is
to be done with the welder to get it serviced under warranty. Well, I
contacted Miller via email, and the reply stated that taking it to the
authorized service agent was the correct thing to do.

Weird. The warranty states in writing one thing, and emailing a warranty
request to Miller gives you a different answer. My guess is that it is
standard practice to simply take it to the shop, and the requirement for a
written notification to Miller may be there to create a loophole that
Miller could use at its discretion to deny warranty claims. (too cynical?)

Another comment in the email reply surprised me. Miller's stand regarding
warranty service is that any shop that did not sell the unit is "not
technically obligated to service it." This information was not given as a
reply to a specific question or comment, but rather added by the author of
the email when the service record for my welder was checked, and it was
shown that the welder was purchased from a dealer in one state, and is
currently being serviced in another.

So, it would be perfectly acceptable, per Miller's policy, for an
authorized service agent to flat-out refuse warranty service to Miller
equipment purchased elsewhere.

Hmmm...I poked around on their web site further...they say on this
page: http://www.millerwelds.com/rfq/help.html

"Local service and support are important factors when purchasing
welding equipment. For the best support possible, we always encourage
you to select a distributor in your area."

So, a customer who resides in Florida and follows Miller's advice and
three months after purchase, gets a job in Alaska in the oil industry,
won't get service in Alaska? Very interesting...this just illustrates
what happens when M.B.A. types who, having met neither a welding
electrode nor an attorney specializing the warranty claims, try to set
corporate policy. I bet it is the same bunch who are in charge of
Quality Control at Miller.

Would you mind telling us which model of Miller welding machine this
is?


Had I known this before ordering the unit, two things would have been
different: I would not have even considered buying a Miller welder online,
and I would have leaned away from even getting a Miller, looking into
getting a Lincoln/Hobart/ESAB instead. (I would have favored the other
manufacturers even more heavily had I known the Miller was going to die
after about 20 minutes of use.)

The reply from Miller also leads me to believe that the discussion I had
with the counter person and manager about why I purchased it elsewhere may
have helped my cause somewhat. The service record for the welder
apparently shows the shop had ordered a part yesterday, so they didn't
wait a week to look at it after all. Either the discussion helped, or
the tech was extremely bored.

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 23:26:21 +0000, Speechless wrote:
So, it would be perfectly acceptable, per Miller's policy, for an
authorized service agent to flat-out refuse warranty service to Miller
equipment purchased elsewhere.

Hmmm...I poked around on their web site further...they say on this
page: http://www.millerwelds.com/rfq/help.html

"Local service and support are important factors when purchasing
welding equipment. For the best support possible, we always encourage
you to select a distributor in your area."

So, a customer who resides in Florida and follows Miller's advice and
three months after purchase, gets a job in Alaska in the oil industry,
won't get service in Alaska?

Of course it's not a guarantee that another shop won't service the
equipment under warranty, but Miller apparently wouldn't have a problem
with them if they did refuse.

Very interesting...this just illustrates what happens when M.B.A. types
who, having met neither a welding electrode nor an attorney specializing
the warranty claims, try to set corporate policy. I bet it is the same
bunch who are in charge of Quality Control at Miller.

Would you mind telling us which model of Miller welding machine this is?

I've purposely been light on the details while waiting to see how the
entire situation plays out since I don't desire to damage anyone's
reputation unnecessarily, nor do I want to anger those who are currently
in possession of my welder. I guess there's no harm in mentioning the
model especially since I have found that my problem lies more with
Miller's warranty service policy (and my lack of knowledge regarding the
policy prior to purchase) than the local shop's service...

Maxstar 150 STH

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:49:39 -0500, me wrote:

First, thanks to everyone for their advice/information.

As one poster noted, the warranty does state that Miller needs to be
notified of problems in writing and only then will Miller decide what is
to be done with the welder to get it serviced under warranty. Well, I
contacted Miller via email, and the reply stated that taking it to the
authorized service agent was the correct thing to do.

Weird. The warranty states in writing one thing, and emailing a warranty
request to Miller gives you a different answer. My guess is that it is
standard practice to simply take it to the shop, and the requirement for a
written notification to Miller may be there to create a loophole that
Miller could use at its discretion to deny warranty claims. (too cynical?)

Another comment in the email reply surprised me. Miller's stand regarding
warranty service is that any shop that did not sell the unit is "not
technically obligated to service it." This information was not given as a
reply to a specific question or comment, but rather added by the author of
the email when the service record for my welder was checked, and it was
shown that the welder was purchased from a dealer in one state, and is
currently being serviced in another.

So, it would be perfectly acceptable, per Miller's policy, for an
authorized service agent to flat-out refuse warranty service to Miller
equipment purchased elsewhere.

Had I known this before ordering the unit, two things would have been
different: I would not have even considered buying a Miller welder online,
and I would have leaned away from even getting a Miller, looking into
getting a Lincoln/Hobart/ESAB instead. (I would have favored the other
manufacturers even more heavily had I known the Miller was going to die
after about 20 minutes of use.)

Since I, myself, am about to spend some $$$$ on welding machines, I
decided to dig further. Miller is owned by ITW, so I dug around on
their web site and found this:
http://www.itw.com/80_20/about_80_20.html

"The concept underlying 80/20 is simple: 80 percent of a business'
sales are derived from the 20 percent of its product offering being
sold to key customers.

Put simply, too often companies do not spend enough time on the
critical 20 percent of their key customers and products and spend too
much time on the less important 80 percent."

Translated into layman's terms, it looks like their official policy is
to screw 80% of their customers and service the other 20%.

I don't think you want to purchase a Hobart machine either. According
to this web page: http://www.hobartwelders.com/termsofuse.html

"Welcome to the web site operated by Hobart Welders ("Hobart
Welders"), manufactured by Miller Electric Mfg Co., a subsidiary of
Illinois Tool Works (ITW)."

And this web page:
http://www.hobartwelders.com/privacypolicy.html

"6. How You Can Contact Hobart Welders

If you have any questions, comments, or concerns about this Privacy
Policy, or the information practices of this Web Site, please contact
us at:

Hobart Welders
c/o Miller Electric Mfg Co
PO Box 1079 Appleton, WI 54912"

Yep, looks like you'd be talking to the same guy for service on a
Hobart machine that you've just had a conversation with about your
Miller machine. ITW, with their 80/20 policy, goes laughing to the
bank, whether you purchase a Miller or a Hobart.


The reply from Miller also leads me to believe that the discussion I had
with the counter person and manager about why I purchased it elsewhere may
have helped my cause somewhat. The service record for the welder
apparently shows the shop had ordered a part yesterday, so they didn't
wait a week to look at it after all. Either the discussion helped, or
the tech was extremely bored.

Can you spell "Lincoln", boyzngerlz???

Very disappointing to hear this about Miller. I have their econotig ca.
1996, no problems, thank god.
Miller seems to have eclipsed Lincoln in this neck of the woods (NYC), but
Lincoln was famous for innovative employment/workplace stuff, and may even
be employee-owned.
Saw a sheetmetal shop w/ all kinds of fancy Lincoln mig/tig stuff, very
happy with it.
fwiw.
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"Speechless" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 13:49:39 -0500, me wrote:

First, thanks to everyone for their advice/information.

As one poster noted, the warranty does state that Miller needs to be
notified of problems in writing and only then will Miller decide what is
to be done with the welder to get it serviced under warranty. Well, I
contacted Miller via email, and the reply stated that taking it to the
authorized service agent was the correct thing to do.

Weird. The warranty states in writing one thing, and emailing a warranty
request to Miller gives you a different answer. My guess is that it is
standard practice to simply take it to the shop, and the requirement for a
written notification to Miller may be there to create a loophole that
Miller could use at its discretion to deny warranty claims. (too cynical?)

Another comment in the email reply surprised me. Miller's stand regarding
warranty service is that any shop that did not sell the unit is "not
technically obligated to service it." This information was not given as a
reply to a specific question or comment, but rather added by the author of
the email when the service record for my welder was checked, and it was
shown that the welder was purchased from a dealer in one state, and is
currently being serviced in another.

So, it would be perfectly acceptable, per Miller's policy, for an
authorized service agent to flat-out refuse warranty service to Miller
equipment purchased elsewhere.

Had I known this before ordering the unit, two things would have been
different: I would not have even considered buying a Miller welder online,
and I would have leaned away from even getting a Miller, looking into
getting a Lincoln/Hobart/ESAB instead. (I would have favored the other
manufacturers even more heavily had I known the Miller was going to die
after about 20 minutes of use.)

Since I, myself, am about to spend some $$$$ on welding machines, I
decided to dig further. Miller is owned by ITW, so I dug around on
their web site and found this:
http://www.itw.com/80_20/about_80_20.html

"The concept underlying 80/20 is simple: 80 percent of a business'
sales are derived from the 20 percent of its product offering being
sold to key customers.

Put simply, too often companies do not spend enough time on the
critical 20 percent of their key customers and products and spend too
much time on the less important 80 percent."

Translated into layman's terms, it looks like their official policy is
to screw 80% of their customers and service the other 20%.

I don't think you want to purchase a Hobart machine either. According
to this web page: http://www.hobartwelders.com/termsofuse.html

"Welcome to the web site operated by Hobart Welders ("Hobart
Welders"), manufactured by Miller Electric Mfg Co., a subsidiary of
Illinois Tool Works (ITW)."

And this web page:
http://www.hobartwelders.com/privacypolicy.html

"6. How You Can Contact Hobart Welders

If you have any questions, comments, or concerns about this Privacy
Policy, or the information practices of this Web Site, please contact
us at:

Hobart Welders
c/o Miller Electric Mfg Co
PO Box 1079 Appleton, WI 54912"

Yep, looks like you'd be talking to the same guy for service on a
Hobart machine that you've just had a conversation with about your
Miller machine. ITW, with their 80/20 policy, goes laughing to the
bank, whether you purchase a Miller or a Hobart.


The reply from Miller also leads me to believe that the discussion I had
with the counter person and manager about why I purchased it elsewhere may
have helped my cause somewhat. The service record for the welder
apparently shows the shop had ordered a part yesterday, so they didn't
wait a week to look at it after all. Either the discussion helped, or
the tech was extremely bored.

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:00:57 GMT, (Speechless)
wrote:


Since I, myself, am about to spend some $$$$ on welding machines, I
decided to dig further. Miller is owned by ITW, so I dug around on
their web site and found this:
http://www.itw.com/80_20/about_80_20.html

"The concept underlying 80/20 is simple: 80 percent of a business'
sales are derived from the 20 percent of its product offering being
sold to key customers.

Put simply, too often companies do not spend enough time on the
critical 20 percent of their key customers and products and spend too
much time on the less important 80 percent."

Translated into layman's terms, it looks like their official policy is
to screw 80% of their customers and service the other 20%.

Ah, but their customer is not the end user. Their customer is the
dealer. So maybe unless you are a multiple location chain, you don't
get the support/parts/inventory you need to be enthusiastic about
Miller or Hobart.

Good research.


I don't think you want to purchase a Hobart machine either. According
to this web page: http://www.hobartwelders.com/termsofuse.html

"Welcome to the web site operated by Hobart Welders ("Hobart
Welders"), manufactured by Miller Electric Mfg Co., a subsidiary of
Illinois Tool Works (ITW)."

And this web page:
http://www.hobartwelders.com/privacypolicy.html

"6. How You Can Contact Hobart Welders

If you have any questions, comments, or concerns about this Privacy
Policy, or the information practices of this Web Site, please contact
us at:

Hobart Welders
c/o Miller Electric Mfg Co
PO Box 1079 Appleton, WI 54912"

Yep, looks like you'd be talking to the same guy for service on a
Hobart machine that you've just had a conversation with about your
Miller machine. ITW, with their 80/20 policy, goes laughing to the
bank, whether you purchase a Miller or a Hobart.


The reply from Miller also leads me to believe that the discussion I had
with the counter person and manager about why I purchased it elsewhere may
have helped my cause somewhat. The service record for the welder
apparently shows the shop had ordered a part yesterday, so they didn't
wait a week to look at it after all. Either the discussion helped, or
the tech was extremely bored.