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#41
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"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message . .. TURTLE writes: Your ganging up all hvac people as hacks when only about 1/3 are hacks, 1/3 are uneducated enough in the business to do it right, and 1/3 is real hvac service professionals. I don't mean to lump the whole lot together. In any service business, you have some that are technically competent, some that aren't, some who are competent but with no head for business, and those who are crooks with excuses why they're not. On top of that natural order, you have the government contractor licensing, the EPA licensing, in some situations the unionization, in collusion to bar entry to the trade and to maintain prices. And on top of that, you have the manufacturer's restraint-of-trade practices for price maintenance, which happens in every industry that sells costly equipment (white goods, farm equipment, cars, used to be personal computers before they got cheap), with manufacturer's constantly influencing dealers to stop discounting and competition. Every bunch that wants government to enforce licensing talks about "protecting the consumer" and "raising standards of professionalism", but in reality it is all bout restricting the market, raising prices, and picking who gets to practice the trade. Doctors, lawyers, barbers, manicurists, morticians, tile-setters, etc. The chief determinant of which enterprises are free of this and which are lousy with it is the simple aspect of how easy it is to lean on people trying to do it. You can police the drywall trade, you can't software over the Internet. This is Turtle. 2 things here. first it is not possible to correctly trouble shoot a system over the internet. Second I live in a State Louisiana who has the right to work laws and all you need is a epa card and a 1962 pinto station wagon and your a HVAC/R professional which can bid on $50,000.00 job right along side me. I've done this for 40 something years and been dealing with hacks all these years. Now these days they have to put up a $300K Contractor liability insurance policy to cover if they don't proform and that is about it. Contractor liability insurance compamys do a little policing of their own by not selling a policy to any person that does not have 5 years work experience in the field and atleast 2 years working on their own as a business owner. Yes you have to get out of state insurance to start or be let sub out under a regular hvac company like myself. Yes i have started a bunch of companys and is starting another one right now. So you are being restricted not only by government but industry does not want the customer screwed and screwing up the jobs theirself. They know 90% of all home owners don't have any skill in the hvac or refrigeration field and wants them to call someone that will not screw it up for the next home owner to buy his screw up's. About 20% of my business comes from home owners fixing what should have been done differently years ago. Also another 30% of my business comes from hacks screwing up jobs and I come finish them. Most home owners will not sue the hack for a small $200.00 screw up and call me and say " Hey Turtle come fix this damn thing " . Your story is not new and we hear it all the time when we are fixing screw up mostly. TURTLE |
#42
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Homeowners please read the charter for alt.hvac and sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
at: http://home.att.net/~alt.hvac/default.htm http://home.att.net/~alt.hvac/netiquet.htm http://home.att.net/~alt.hvac/charter.htm It states: The HVAC groups are not intended to supplement the homeowner groups such as misc.consumer.house and alt.home.repair So please go there and post your question or call your local heating/ air conditioning contractor to service your equipment. According to the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC), a qualified heating contractor should inspect the home heating system annually. Checks should be made of the furnace or boiler, and its electrical and mechanical components, thermostat controls and automatic safety switches. MechAcc "lbecker" wrote in message ... Hi, I have a Lennox Heat Pump model HP-27-042 (http://lennox.com/products/overview.asp?model=HP27) and the compressor died in it. Luckily there is a warranty on the part, but I need to pay labor to have it replaced. (I don't have an annual contract, but based on the cost estimate I got, I would have broken even anyway I think). In any case I got an estimate of $650 to replace the compressor, and while to my non-HVAC professional eye, it looks like it could be time consuming (i.e. doesn't look real simple to just swap it in and out) $650 struck me as kind of high. I am going to try to get a 2nd quote, but figured I would check with the pros in here to see if that was at least a reasonable ball park number. thanks in advance for any input or advice. - Lynn B. |
#43
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In article ,
Richard J Kinch the socialist ****wit wrote: snipped rant Every bunch that wants government to enforce licensing talks about "protecting the consumer" and "raising standards of professionalism", but in reality it is all bout restricting the market, raising prices, and picking who gets to practice the trade. Doctors, lawyers, barbers, manicurists, morticians, tile-setters, etc. BULL****. Allow you to hang a shingle and call yourself a Lawyer, Barber or a Doctor because you watched and helped a few times? "Protecting the consumer" and "raising standards of professionalism" is precisely why we have licensing. The chief determinant of which enterprises are free of this and which are lousy with it is the simple aspect of how easy it is to lean on people trying to do it. You can police the drywall trade, you can't software over the Internet. Make some software that harms someone. You know full well the software license is one long weazel clause. Stand behind your software like we do our trade Kinch. LOL |
#44
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bill writes:
"Protecting the consumer" and "raising standards of professionalism" is precisely why we have licensing. No, those things are perfectly well achieved with voluntary standards that intelligent people can pay for if they choose. When the government forbids, ultimately with threats of force, a willing buyer and willing seller to exchange in an honest transaction, because of a lack of a trade license, then that has nothing to do with consumer protection or professionalism. It is motivated by greed, of the tradesman who benefits from higher prices and less competition, and of the politician who gains a moneyed special interest. In the extreme, the government itself will decide who will do the work and tax us to pay for it, like the public schools. |
#45
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Steve@carolinabreezehvac writes:
As far as pricing...no one tells me what I can or cant sell my equipment for. I had one company that sent me a C+D letter one time, and I replied back with an up yours....and never heard back from them again. Well, good for you. I suppose you must have had alternative suppliers available if they cut you off for discounting. But it illustrates my point that the mfrs are constantly pulling these price-maintenance stunts, mostly illegal nowadays. Nothing remarkable that the HVAC biz does it. Maybe you are old enough to remember the "fair trade" laws (which were in truth the opposite of fair) up until the 1960s, made it *illegal* to charge less than list price. When I sold a very popular line of PCs in upstate New York in the early 1980s, they literally had an Italian mob guy (yes, named "Tony") that came around and "leaned" on you if you were suspected of charging less than list price. He wanted me to succeed and be wealthy selling these high-tech products made in California, but not at a discount. These kinds of "interpersonal skills" seem to be valuable in the "independent manufacturer's representative" line of work. And you thought it was all Dale Carnegie hail-fellow-well-met win-friends-and-influence-people style. People I know in kitchen appliance retailing, farm implements sales, garage door repair, etc., have similar stories. |
#46
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In article ,
Richard J Kinch wrote: bill writes: "Protecting the consumer" and "raising standards of professionalism" is precisely why we have licensing. No, those things are perfectly well achieved with voluntary standards that intelligent people can pay for if they choose. Kinch, any ****wit with a pair of pump pliers can hang a shingle and hold himself out to be a HVAC contractor in your idealistic world. That's exactly why we have licensing. You want the rules changed so your hack ass can do as you like. When you **** up and injure or kill someone you can explain your theories to the judge. When the government forbids, ultimately with threats of force, a willing buyer and willing seller to exchange in an honest transaction, because of a lack of a trade license, then that has nothing to do with consumer protection or professionalism. Selling something to someone and providing a professional service is two different things. Don't try to blur the lines. It is motivated by greed, of the tradesman who benefits from higher prices and less competition, and of the politician who gains a moneyed special interest. You don't know **** about business. Get a education Kinch. Preferably somewhere other than where you got your Ph.D. In the extreme, the government itself will decide who will do the work and tax us to pay for it, like the public schools. Only if the Democrats win. |
#47
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**** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com ****
Bull **** Richard. Here you go on your soap box again! If I recall, you are a double E. Are you actually trying to bull**** people into believing that as long as both parties agree, anyone should be allowed to design electrical systems for buildings? Yeah, take the "if they are qualified" response and shove it in your butt! You KNOW the only way they are qualified, or more specifically, how someone else knows they are qualified, is if they have obtained some sort of certification. You do not even believe your own bull**** so why don't you stop spewing it. Yeah, you are down there in "permit hell" and the idea that someone can not build their own deck by following simple instructions is a bit of a stretch, however, you also know people who haven't a CLUE and might well construct a deck on the second floor that will fall on someone other than them or the others property. The government stepping in and offering some form of certification that says "Mr. Kinch is qualified to design electrical systems because he has proven he has the required education and has passed a test, so in theory, Mr. Kinch should design things electrically safe for the person and people affected by the work" is a GOOD thing, and you ****ing agree with it. You LOVE to bash HVAC contractors because they mark up parts, YOU think they charge too much because YOU are willing to work unlicensed, uninsured because you have the knowledge in a basic form, access and the wit to tap resource information when you are out of your abilities, and you enjoy doing it. You pay my insurance, you pay my taxes, you pay my employees health insurance, you pay my employees for 40 hours when they only have 30 hours work this week, you do all that, and ill lower my price per task, until then, shut your freakin pie hole and quit saying things that you yourself do not even believe. the other rich "Richard J Kinch" wrote in message . .. bill writes: "Protecting the consumer" and "raising standards of professionalism" is precisely why we have licensing. No, those things are perfectly well achieved with voluntary standards that intelligent people can pay for if they choose. When the government forbids, ultimately with threats of force, a willing buyer and willing seller to exchange in an honest transaction, because of a lack of a trade license, then that has nothing to do with consumer protection or professionalism. It is motivated by greed, of the tradesman who benefits from higher prices and less competition, and of the politician who gains a moneyed special interest. In the extreme, the government itself will decide who will do the work and tax us to pay for it, like the public schools. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= *** Usenet.com - The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! *** http://www.usenet.com Unlimited Download - 19 Seperate Servers - 90,000 groups - Uncensored -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= |
#48
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"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message . .. bill writes: "Protecting the consumer" and "raising standards of professionalism" is precisely why we have licensing. No, those things are perfectly well achieved with voluntary standards that intelligent people can pay for if they choose. When the government forbids, ultimately with threats of force, a willing buyer and willing seller to exchange in an honest transaction, because of a lack of a trade license, then that has nothing to do with consumer protection or professionalism. It is motivated by greed, of the tradesman who benefits from higher prices and less competition, and of the politician who gains a moneyed special interest. In the extreme, the government itself will decide who will do the work and tax us to pay for it, like the public schools. So just exactly how do you propose that we should charge enough to be able to stay in business, be able to pay our bills, feed our familys, pay our taxes, pay for our medical and dental care, pay for our vehicles, pay for our homes, etc and still work for free??? Just exactly what is it that you do??? how much are you overpaid?? what does it cost you to pay for a roof over your head??? how much does it cost to feed your family??? how much does it cost for your medical and dental insurance?? how much do you pay in taxes?? how much does it cost to run and maintain your vehicles??? how much less can you get paid and still survive?? inquiring minds want to know. |
#49
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TURTLE wrote: This is Turtle. 2 things here. first it is not possible to correctly trouble shoot a system over the internet. Second I live in a State Louisiana who has the right to work laws and all you need is a epa card and a 1962 pinto station wagon and your a HVAC/R professional which can bid on $50,000.00 job right along side me. I've done this for 40 something years and been dealing with hacks all these years. Now these days they have to put up a $300K Contractor liability insurance policy to cover if they don't proform and that is about it. Contractor liability insurance compamys do a little policing of their own by not selling a policy to any person that does not have 5 years work experience in the field and atleast 2 years working on their own as a business owner. Yes you have to get out of state insurance to start or be let sub out under a regular hvac company like myself. Yes i have started a bunch of companys and is starting another one right now. So you are being restricted not only by government but industry does not want the customer screwed and screwing up the jobs theirself. They know 90% of all home owners don't have any skill in the hvac or refrigeration field and wants them to call someone that will not screw it up for the next home owner to buy his screw up's. About 20% of my business comes from home owners fixing what should have been done differently years ago. Also another 30% of my business comes from hacks screwing up jobs and I come finish them. Most home owners will not sue the hack for a small $200.00 screw up and call me and say " Hey Turtle come fix this damn thing " . Your story is not new and we hear it all the time when we are fixing screw up mostly. TURTLE Wow, what a difference. I am in a right to work state, but we have a Registrar of Contractors and there is a law against non-contractors doing jobs in excess of $750. Under $750, you can do it as a "handyman." Yes, I work with a number of folks who do side jobs and installs that are way in excess of that. Technically, and I know it has happened, if you are not a contractor and the customer has you do a job that exceeds that total, they can refuse to pay and file a complaint with the Registrar of Contractors, and you are screwed. No, I have not felt compelled to drop a dime on anyone yet, though I've been tempted. |
#50
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Richard J Kinch wrote in message ...
bill writes: "Protecting the consumer" and "raising standards of professionalism" is precisely why we have licensing. No, those things are perfectly well achieved with voluntary standards that intelligent people can pay for if they choose. Thanks, you just made me blow Coke out of my nose. You owe me a nnnneeeewwww kkkkkkkkeeeeeyyyyybbbbbbooooaaarrrrddd. Time and again it has been shown that even intelligent people can be at a loss in an area outside their expertise. Without being an expert in HVAC or some close-related engineering field, how is one qualified to judge whether the unlicensed "contractor" standing before him is competent to be entrusted with the potential bomb in the basement? As intrusive as I find the government system of licensing, inspections etc., it has its purpose. I'm not so much worried about blowing up my own house or whatever, because I am qualifed to do the work myself or to judge who can. However I'm damn glad that my clueless neighbor can't buy his own HVAC system or hire some complete nincompoop to do it for him. You see, I just don't want to come home and find the remnants of his house all over my property. This isn't about protecting the consumer, it's about protecting me from other "consumers." When the government forbids, ultimately with threats of force, a willing buyer and willing seller to exchange in an honest transaction, because of a lack of a trade license, then that has nothing to do with consumer protection or professionalism. It is motivated by greed, of the tradesman who benefits from higher prices and less competition, and of the politician who gains a moneyed special interest. Absolutely no benefit to society at large, nope, not a bit, no lives have ever been spared by restricting certain kinds of work to those qualified to do it, nuh uh, never, nada, nyet. In the extreme, the government itself will decide who will do the work and tax us to pay for it, like the public schools. That has happened, or something like it as I understand, in the case of septic systems in some locales. People got tired of swimming in the neighbor's ****, complained to the lawmakers, and got the protection from the neighbor's incompetence they asked for. %mod% |
#51
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On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 20:25:53 -0500, "MechAcc"
wrote: Homeowners please read the charter for alt.hvac and sci.engr.heat-vent-ac I did and it also states "Many of the `experts' are glad to help homeowners with their HVAC problems, others would rather not. |
#52
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"Vicki Szaszvari" wrote in message ... TURTLE wrote: This is Turtle. 2 things here. first it is not possible to correctly trouble shoot a system over the internet. Second I live in a State Louisiana who has the right to work laws and all you need is a epa card and a 1962 pinto station wagon and your a HVAC/R professional which can bid on $50,000.00 job right along side me. I've done this for 40 something years and been dealing with hacks all these years. Now these days they have to put up a $300K Contractor liability insurance policy to cover if they don't proform and that is about it. Contractor liability insurance compamys do a little policing of their own by not selling a policy to any person that does not have 5 years work experience in the field and atleast 2 years working on their own as a business owner. Yes you have to get out of state insurance to start or be let sub out under a regular hvac company like myself. Yes i have started a bunch of companys and is starting another one right now. So you are being restricted not only by government but industry does not want the customer screwed and screwing up the jobs theirself. They know 90% of all home owners don't have any skill in the hvac or refrigeration field and wants them to call someone that will not screw it up for the next home owner to buy his screw up's. About 20% of my business comes from home owners fixing what should have been done differently years ago. Also another 30% of my business comes from hacks screwing up jobs and I come finish them. Most home owners will not sue the hack for a small $200.00 screw up and call me and say " Hey Turtle come fix this damn thing " . Your story is not new and we hear it all the time when we are fixing screw up mostly. TURTLE Wow, what a difference. I am in a right to work state, but we have a Registrar of Contractors and there is a law against non-contractors doing jobs in excess of $750. Under $750, you can do it as a "handyman." Yes, I work with a number of folks who do side jobs and installs that are way in excess of that. Technically, and I know it has happened, if you are not a contractor and the customer has you do a job that exceeds that total, they can refuse to pay and file a complaint with the Registrar of Contractors, and you are screwed. No, I have not felt compelled to drop a dime on anyone yet, though I've been tempted. This is Turtle. Outside city limits all bets are off and only in citys will you see the rules come into effect. Outside city limits you don't need licences, insurance, or Permitts but you can't do any commercial work at all. Commercial means any open to the public businesses or any public owned buildings. So Only residentiual only. The Only thing you have to have outside the city limits is a E.P.A. card. If you don't have a E.P.A. card --- they don't have to pay you when you go to collect for a hvac job -- Big or little. A bunch of hands get a education without a E.P.A. card. All the warehouses will not sell to nobody except the ones with a E.P.A. card for they know they will get hit with a bunch of none payments and go belly up on the warehouse. Even goodman will want to see a E.P.A. card before they sell to them. Here a warehouse can go to school just like the Rookies. now if your in the city limits of any city the following applies ; Small Contractors === Min- $300K Contractor Liability insurance. Small Contractors === Min- Small job $60K or less Electric / HVAC Licences , HVAC Operator City permitt / licences, E.P.A. II Card in Pocket , Recovery Machine on truck, and Have Workman's Comp if you employee more than 5 Employees. This will get you to do a $60k jobs or less / nothing over $250K worth of business a year , but nothing over that. Large Contractor === Min. $2 Mil. Contractor Liability insurance, Have Louisiana State Commercial Electric Licences [ Adult size Lesstricity Licences ] , Workman's Comp on all employees, Read to and apply to Equal opportunity State Regulations, City of Doing business in City Operator permit, Pay city fee on jobs over $1K of $3.00 on every $1K of a job and city inspector will inspect it, E.P.A. Card with Universial on it, Recovery Machine on trucks, Any job over $60K must have job plain submitted to State Fire Marshal's Office, Have and Submitt sales tax payments every month not Quarterly, and last of all full fill all signed contractor and if not you go on probation for one. Second one you get hit with paying other contractor to finish the job. Third one you get all licences and operator permitts pulled for one year and you pay other contractor to full fill your contracts. that means you go belly up. There is no Company that can do jobs of over $60K in Allen Parish / County except myself. They do have bigger ones who come in but they are at a disadvantage by not being located here. The Citys and Parish Offical have a thing now about wanting to hire companys that Hire and employee Allen Parish people and not out of Parish or out of state labor. I hire 100% all Allen Parish employees. I got the Adult Electric licences by Grandfathering in back in 1975 when the state adopted Licenced companys in the different fields. I sub out Electric work on the HVAC systems if big enough to the smaller electric service companys and they work under my licences. TURTLE |
#53
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"lbecker" wrote in message ... On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 20:25:53 -0500, "MechAcc" wrote: Homeowners please read the charter for alt.hvac and sci.engr.heat-vent-ac I did and it also states "Many of the `experts' are glad to help homeowners with their HVAC problems, others would rather not. Quit crossposting to alt.hvac you ****ing idiot. -- SVL |
#54
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Noon-Air writes:
So just exactly how do you propose that we should charge enough to be able to stay in business, be able to pay our bills, feed our familys, pay our taxes, pay for our medical and dental care, pay for our vehicles, pay for our homes, etc and still work for free??? No problem with you being in business or making a living. You sound like someone who must do well at it. The problem is the men with guns ... excuse me, the government, deciding who gets to be in the biz and forbidding the public from dealing with anyone else. The only situations where the gummint "cares" about "protecting the consumer" is when there is money in it. If the consumer needs government protection, then everything should be licensed. |
#55
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TURTLE writes:
Small Contractors === Min- $300K Contractor Liability insurance. Small Contractors === Min- Small job $60K or less Electric / HVAC Licences , HVAC Operator City permitt / licences, E.P.A. II Card in Pocket , Recovery Machine on truck, and Have Workman's Comp if you employee more than 5 Employees. This will get you to do a $60k jobs or less / nothing over $250K worth of business a year , but nothing over that. Large Contractor === Min. $2 Mil. Contractor Liability insurance, Have Louisiana State Commercial Electric Licences [ Adult size Lesstricity Licences ] , Workman's Comp on all employees, Read to and apply to Equal opportunity State Regulations, City of Doing business in City Operator permit, Pay city fee on jobs over $1K of $3.00 on every $1K of a job and city inspector will inspect it, E.P.A. Card with Universial on it, Recovery Machine on trucks, Any job over $60K must have job plain submitted to State Fire Marshal's Office, Have and Submitt sales tax payments every month not Quarterly, and last of all full fill all signed contractor and if not you go on probation for one. Second one you get hit with paying other contractor to finish the job. Third one you get all licences and operator permitts pulled for one year and you pay other contractor to full fill your contracts. that means you go belly up. All that regulation and red tape. The homeowners and commercial customers asked for this? "Please Mr Politician, put all that in place because we want to be protected from shoddy workmanship and unprofessional hacks." These hideous systems came from pols and the trade, helping themselves by making an industry into a gentlemen's invitation-only club. |
#56
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In article ,
Richard J Kinch wrote: All that regulation and red tape. The homeowners and commercial customers asked for this? "Please Mr Politician, put all that in place because we want to be protected from shoddy workmanship and unprofessional hacks." These hideous systems came from pols and the trade, helping themselves by making an industry into a gentlemen's invitation-only club. Sorry Kinch but when you grow up maybe you'll understand why you shouldn't let anyone do anything they want. I wouldn't trust you to chew gum and pick your ass much less work on something involving electricity. Your arguments of why you should be allowed to play with dynamite prove why others need to be protected from morons like you. I'd be willing to bet your house is a death trap waiting on a trigger. |
#57
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"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message . .. Noon-Air writes: So just exactly how do you propose that we should charge enough to be able to stay in business, be able to pay our bills, feed our familys, pay our taxes, pay for our medical and dental care, pay for our vehicles, pay for our homes, etc and still work for free??? No problem with you being in business or making a living. You sound like someone who must do well at it. The problem is the men with guns ... excuse me, the government, deciding who gets to be in the biz and forbidding the public from dealing with anyone else. The only situations where the gummint "cares" about "protecting the consumer" is when there is money in it. If the consumer needs government protection, then everything should be licensed. Here we have no licensing or code enforcement outside of the city limits and just in this county alone we lose at least 6 homes and or trailers and several lives each year due to fire because some hack or home-moaner decided they could do it them selves. The only reason we *don't* have manditory licensing and code enforcement state wide is because of the builders/realtors (more often as not they are one and the same) political pull and money. They know it will cut into their bottom line because they know they will have to get it done right instead of getting it done the cheapest by unlicensed hacks and raping the home buyer in the pocketbook. Do a google on this group and see how many time a legitimate contractor has had to correct a dangerous situation that had the potential of causing the loss of life, limb and/or property. The stuff like that I see on almost a daily basis is really scarey. |
#58
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"bill" wrote in message ... In article , Richard J Kinch wrote: All that regulation and red tape. The homeowners and commercial customers asked for this? "Please Mr Politician, put all that in place because we want to be protected from shoddy workmanship and unprofessional hacks." These hideous systems came from pols and the trade, helping themselves by making an industry into a gentlemen's invitation-only club. Sorry Kinch but when you grow up maybe you'll understand why you shouldn't let anyone do anything they want. I wouldn't trust you to chew gum and pick your ass much less work on something involving electricity. Your arguments of why you should be allowed to play with dynamite prove why others need to be protected from morons like you. I'd be willing to bet your house is a death trap waiting on a trigger. This is Turtle. What Kinch's problem is he went down to the Dynamite Supply house and wanted 10 sticks and 3 fuse cap to get a stump out of his back yard and the fellow there told him to go away. Kinch told the fellow that he had a right to buy anything he wanted because he was a smart fellow. The fellow told Kinch that when he got a Dynamite licences to buy , come back. So now Kinch wants to work on HVAC systems and has hit a dead end here too. He does not know you work from the bottom / up and not from the top / down when working in a industry. I like the part about a Written invitation to get into a field of work. He wants to by-pass the state & Federal regulations , schools on it, Permitting systems, and go direct to dynamiting stumps and working on 480 volt electrical systems. He must be a smart fellower ! TURTLE |
#59
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You missed your calling in life. Get out of HVAC and get into letter
writing. -- Christopher A. Young Do good work. It's longer in the short run, But shorter in the long run. Steve@carolinabreezehvac writes: As far as pricing...no one tells me what I can or cant sell my equipment for. I had one company that sent me a C+D letter one time, and I replied back with an up yours....and never heard back from them again. |
#60
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"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ... You missed your calling in life. Get out of HVAC and get into letter writing. -- Christopher A. Young Do good work. It's longer in the short run, But shorter in the long run. Steve@carolinabreezehvac writes: As far as pricing...no one tells me what I can or cant sell my equipment for. I had one company that sent me a C+D letter one time, and I replied back with an up yours....and never heard back from them again. Funny...we are still waiting for you to get into HVAC..... |
#61
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TURTLE wrote: "Vicki Szaszvari" wrote in message ... TURTLE wrote: This is Turtle. 2 things here. first it is not possible to correctly trouble shoot a system over the internet. Second I live in a State Louisiana who has the right to work laws and all you need is a epa card and a 1962 pinto station wagon and your a HVAC/R professional which can bid on $50,000.00 job right along side me. I've done this for 40 something years and been dealing with hacks all these years. Now these days they have to put up a $300K Contractor liability insurance policy to cover if they don't proform and that is about it. Contractor liability insurance compamys do a little policing of their own by not selling a policy to any person that does not have 5 years work experience in the field and atleast 2 years working on their own as a business owner. Yes you have to get out of state insurance to start or be let sub out under a regular hvac company like myself. Yes i have started a bunch of companys and is starting another one right now. So you are being restricted not only by government but industry does not want the customer screwed and screwing up the jobs theirself. They know 90% of all home owners don't have any skill in the hvac or refrigeration field and wants them to call someone that will not screw it up for the next home owner to buy his screw up's. About 20% of my business comes from home owners fixing what should have been done differently years ago. Also another 30% of my business comes from hacks screwing up jobs and I come finish them. Most home owners will not sue the hack for a small $200.00 screw up and call me and say " Hey Turtle come fix this damn thing " . Your story is not new and we hear it all the time when we are fixing screw up mostly. TURTLE Wow, what a difference. I am in a right to work state, but we have a Registrar of Contractors and there is a law against non-contractors doing jobs in excess of $750. Under $750, you can do it as a "handyman." Yes, I work with a number of folks who do side jobs and installs that are way in excess of that. Technically, and I know it has happened, if you are not a contractor and the customer has you do a job that exceeds that total, they can refuse to pay and file a complaint with the Registrar of Contractors, and you are screwed. No, I have not felt compelled to drop a dime on anyone yet, though I've been tempted. This is Turtle. Outside city limits all bets are off and only in citys will you see the rules come into effect. Outside city limits you don't need licences, insurance, or Permitts but you can't do any commercial work at all. Commercial means any open to the public businesses or any public owned buildings. So Only residentiual only. The Only thing you have to have outside the city limits is a E.P.A. card. If you don't have a E.P.A. card --- they don't have to pay you when you go to collect for a hvac job -- Big or little. A bunch of hands get a education without a E.P.A. card. All the warehouses will not sell to nobody except the ones with a E.P.A. card for they know they will get hit with a bunch of none payments and go belly up on the warehouse. Even goodman will want to see a E.P.A. card before they sell to them. Here a warehouse can go to school just like the Rookies. now if your in the city limits of any city the following applies ; Small Contractors === Min- $300K Contractor Liability insurance. Small Contractors === Min- Small job $60K or less Electric / HVAC Licences , HVAC Operator City permitt / licences, E.P.A. II Card in Pocket , Recovery Machine on truck, and Have Workman's Comp if you employee more than 5 Employees. This will get you to do a $60k jobs or less / nothing over $250K worth of business a year , but nothing over that. Large Contractor === Min. $2 Mil. Contractor Liability insurance, Have Louisiana State Commercial Electric Licences [ Adult size Lesstricity Licences ] , Workman's Comp on all employees, Read to and apply to Equal opportunity State Regulations, City of Doing business in City Operator permit, Pay city fee on jobs over $1K of $3.00 on every $1K of a job and city inspector will inspect it, E.P.A. Card with Universial on it, Recovery Machine on trucks, Any job over $60K must have job plain submitted to State Fire Marshal's Office, Have and Submitt sales tax payments every month not Quarterly, and last of all full fill all signed contractor and if not you go on probation for one. Second one you get hit with paying other contractor to finish the job. Third one you get all licences and operator permitts pulled for one year and you pay other contractor to full fill your contracts. that means you go belly up. There is no Company that can do jobs of over $60K in Allen Parish / County except myself. They do have bigger ones who come in but they are at a disadvantage by not being located here. The Citys and Parish Offical have a thing now about wanting to hire companys that Hire and employee Allen Parish people and not out of Parish or out of state labor. I hire 100% all Allen Parish employees. I got the Adult Electric licences by Grandfathering in back in 1975 when the state adopted Licenced companys in the different fields. I sub out Electric work on the HVAC systems if big enough to the smaller electric service companys and they work under my licences. TURTLE The supply houses here ask that you have a contractor's license before they sell you units, but there are ways around that. They only require an E.P.A. card for buying refrigerant. At first they wanted one for units, then decided that you needed to be a contrctor to buy those. Except at certain hardware stores, where you only need cash to buy a Goodman. |
#62
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In article ,
"TURTLE" wrote: What Kinch's problem is he went down to the Dynamite Supply house and wanted 10 sticks and 3 fuse cap to get a stump out of his back yard and the fellow there told him to go away. Kinch told the fellow that he had a right to buy anything he wanted because he was a smart fellow. The fellow told Kinch that when he got a Dynamite licences to buy , come back. So now Kinch wants to work on HVAC systems and has hit a dead end here too. He does not know you work from the bottom / up and not from the top / down when working in a industry. I like the part about a Written invitation to get into a field of work. He wants to by-pass the state & Federal regulations , schools on it, Permitting systems, and go direct to dynamiting stumps and working on 480 volt electrical systems. He must be a smart fellower ! TURTLE He has a Ph.D. Customer of mine liked to hire Ph.D's. Said they were the best dishwasher and bussboys you can get. I think all that education makes Ph.D's feel entitled to live off the rest of us. Apparently adopting the socialist view is the chic thing to do. That seems to be how academia is contructed. I could be wrong as I only have a high school education. It must really **** Kinch off to lose an argument to us. I imagine he's used to that by now though. |
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"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message . .. Steve@carolinabreezehvac writes: As far as pricing...no one tells me what I can or cant sell my equipment for. I had one company that sent me a C+D letter one time, and I replied back with an up yours....and never heard back from them again. Well, good for you. I suppose you must have had alternative suppliers available if they cut you off for discounting. But it illustrates my point that the mfrs are constantly pulling these price-maintenance stunts, mostly illegal nowadays. Nothing remarkable that the HVAC biz does it. Maybe you are old enough to remember the "fair trade" laws (which were in truth the opposite of fair) up until the 1960s, made it *illegal* to charge less than list price. When I sold a very popular line of PCs in upstate New York in the early 1980s, they literally had an Italian mob guy (yes, named "Tony") that came around and "leaned" on you if you were suspected of charging less than list price. He wanted me to succeed and be wealthy selling these high-tech products made in California, but not at a discount. These kinds of "interpersonal skills" seem to be valuable in the "independent manufacturer's representative" line of work. And you thought it was all Dale Carnegie hail-fellow-well-met win-friends-and-influence-people style. People I know in kitchen appliance retailing, farm implements sales, garage door repair, etc., have similar stories. Kinch , You must have missed Eco. 101 in Collage. it say the more money changes hand the better the System works. If you sell everything at wholesale , there would be nobody to bring it to you or work on it. The price difference between Wholesale and retail is for the service people and dealers to ship it to you and have a reason to offer it to you. Without this you will have to drive to Columbia to get your coffee and to Louisiana to get your sugar for your coffee. If you don't have the time. You will have to pay the mark up or retail price. I know this sounds funny but it works. TURTLE |
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"Vicki Szaszvari" wrote in message ... TURTLE wrote: "Vicki Szaszvari" wrote in message ... TURTLE wrote: This is Turtle. 2 things here. first it is not possible to correctly trouble shoot a system over the internet. Second I live in a State Louisiana who has the right to work laws and all you need is a epa card and a 1962 pinto station wagon and your a HVAC/R professional which can bid on $50,000.00 job right along side me. I've done this for 40 something years and been dealing with hacks all these years. Now these days they have to put up a $300K Contractor liability insurance policy to cover if they don't proform and that is about it. Contractor liability insurance compamys do a little policing of their own by not selling a policy to any person that does not have 5 years work experience in the field and atleast 2 years working on their own as a business owner. Yes you have to get out of state insurance to start or be let sub out under a regular hvac company like myself. Yes i have started a bunch of companys and is starting another one right now. So you are being restricted not only by government but industry does not want the customer screwed and screwing up the jobs theirself. They know 90% of all home owners don't have any skill in the hvac or refrigeration field and wants them to call someone that will not screw it up for the next home owner to buy his screw up's. About 20% of my business comes from home owners fixing what should have been done differently years ago. Also another 30% of my business comes from hacks screwing up jobs and I come finish them. Most home owners will not sue the hack for a small $200.00 screw up and call me and say " Hey Turtle come fix this damn thing " . Your story is not new and we hear it all the time when we are fixing screw up mostly. TURTLE Wow, what a difference. I am in a right to work state, but we have a Registrar of Contractors and there is a law against non-contractors doing jobs in excess of $750. Under $750, you can do it as a "handyman." Yes, I work with a number of folks who do side jobs and installs that are way in excess of that. Technically, and I know it has happened, if you are not a contractor and the customer has you do a job that exceeds that total, they can refuse to pay and file a complaint with the Registrar of Contractors, and you are screwed. No, I have not felt compelled to drop a dime on anyone yet, though I've been tempted. This is Turtle. Outside city limits all bets are off and only in citys will you see the rules come into effect. Outside city limits you don't need licences, insurance, or Permitts but you can't do any commercial work at all. Commercial means any open to the public businesses or any public owned buildings. So Only residentiual only. The Only thing you have to have outside the city limits is a E.P.A. card. If you don't have a E.P.A. card --- they don't have to pay you when you go to collect for a hvac job -- Big or little. A bunch of hands get a education without a E.P.A. card. All the warehouses will not sell to nobody except the ones with a E.P.A. card for they know they will get hit with a bunch of none payments and go belly up on the warehouse. Even goodman will want to see a E.P.A. card before they sell to them. Here a warehouse can go to school just like the Rookies. now if your in the city limits of any city the following applies ; Small Contractors === Min- $300K Contractor Liability insurance. Small Contractors === Min- Small job $60K or less Electric / HVAC Licences , HVAC Operator City permitt / licences, E.P.A. II Card in Pocket , Recovery Machine on truck, and Have Workman's Comp if you employee more than 5 Employees. This will get you to do a $60k jobs or less / nothing over $250K worth of business a year , but nothing over that. Large Contractor === Min. $2 Mil. Contractor Liability insurance, Have Louisiana State Commercial Electric Licences [ Adult size Lesstricity Licences ] , Workman's Comp on all employees, Read to and apply to Equal opportunity State Regulations, City of Doing business in City Operator permit, Pay city fee on jobs over $1K of $3.00 on every $1K of a job and city inspector will inspect it, E.P.A. Card with Universial on it, Recovery Machine on trucks, Any job over $60K must have job plain submitted to State Fire Marshal's Office, Have and Submitt sales tax payments every month not Quarterly, and last of all full fill all signed contractor and if not you go on probation for one. Second one you get hit with paying other contractor to finish the job. Third one you get all licences and operator permitts pulled for one year and you pay other contractor to full fill your contracts. that means you go belly up. There is no Company that can do jobs of over $60K in Allen Parish / County except myself. They do have bigger ones who come in but they are at a disadvantage by not being located here. The Citys and Parish Offical have a thing now about wanting to hire companys that Hire and employee Allen Parish people and not out of Parish or out of state labor. I hire 100% all Allen Parish employees. I got the Adult Electric licences by Grandfathering in back in 1975 when the state adopted Licenced companys in the different fields. I sub out Electric work on the HVAC systems if big enough to the smaller electric service companys and they work under my licences. TURTLE The supply houses here ask that you have a contractor's license before they sell you units, but there are ways around that. They only require an E.P.A. card for buying refrigerant. At first they wanted one for units, then decided that you needed to be a contrctor to buy those. Except at certain hardware stores, where you only need cash to buy a Goodman. This is Turtle. Goodman calls the Hardware store a Service dealer and if you screw it up. You can sue the hardware store to come fix it here. They all here are gun shy for getting sued to death. Here if you install it yourself and the compressor burns up. you call the company you bought it from and tell them to come replace it for nothing. AZ. must have not figured this out yet , but when they do you will see a big change in who buys what. Even Home Cheap-0 and Low's stores make you sign a contract for a registered or unregistered hvac contractor to install it. The first time the Law Sueing starts you will see the end of customer selling stop. TURTLE |
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bill writes:
It must really **** Kinch off to lose an argument to us. What argument? All I see is foul-mouthed insults, unworthy of reply. |
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In article ,
Richard J Kinch wrote: bill writes: It must really **** Kinch off to lose an argument to us. What argument? All I see is foul-mouthed insults, unworthy of reply. Hey! Watch your durty fricking mouth. |
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TURTLE wrote: This is Turtle. Goodman calls the Hardware store a Service dealer and if you screw it up. You can sue the hardware store to come fix it here. They all here are gun shy for getting sued to death. Here if you install it yourself and the compressor burns up. you call the company you bought it from and tell them to come replace it for nothing. AZ. must have not figured this out yet , but when they do you will see a big change in who buys what. Even Home Cheap-0 and Low's stores make you sign a contract for a registered or unregistered hvac contractor to install it. The first time the Law Sueing starts you will see the end of customer selling stop. TURTLE I am looking forward to that! Except that some are single-owner Ace Hardware stores. |
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lbecker wrote in message . ..
Hi, I have a Lennox Heat Pump model HP-27-042 (http://lennox.com/products/overview.asp?model=HP27) and the compressor died in it. Luckily there is a warranty on the part, but I need to pay labor to have it replaced. (I don't have an annual contract, but based on the cost estimate I got, I would have broken even anyway I think). In any case I got an estimate of $650 to replace the compressor, and while to my non-HVAC professional eye, it looks like it could be time consuming (i.e. doesn't look real simple to just swap it in and out) $650 struck me as kind of high. I am going to try to get a 2nd quote, but figured I would check with the pros in here to see if that was at least a reasonable ball park number. thanks in advance for any input or advice. - Lynn B. Lynn, If you're going to drop $650 ( a fairly high price for a "labor only" compressor replacement IMO) into a compressor swap on a unit over 4 years old, you might consider replacing the entire outdoor HP. New unit, new 5-year warranty, new everything. Get prices and consider the -next- compressor replacement will be on your dime; over $1K. Most importantly, have somebody qualified try and figure out what caused the failure in the first place. Dirty indoor coils, poor maintenance, low air volume are a heatpumps worst enemy. Good luck with it. Randy |
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"Vicki Szaszvari" wrote in message ... TURTLE wrote: This is Turtle. Goodman calls the Hardware store a Service dealer and if you screw it up. You can sue the hardware store to come fix it here. They all here are gun shy for getting sued to death. Here if you install it yourself and the compressor burns up. you call the company you bought it from and tell them to come replace it for nothing. AZ. must have not figured this out yet , but when they do you will see a big change in who buys what. Even Home Cheap-0 and Low's stores make you sign a contract for a registered or unregistered hvac contractor to install it. The first time the Law Sueing starts you will see the end of customer selling stop. TURTLE I am looking forward to that! Except that some are single-owner Ace Hardware stores. This is Turtle. The right people have not got to them yet. If a customer buys it and a local hack screws it up like busting the valves with a drum of gas in it and the compressor locks up. The customer can call Ace hardware and say , Hey i need you to come change out my condenser unit compressor for me. I don't know about Az. Law but in Louisiana law says the last person with their Company letter head on the invoice is responciable for parts and labor for 1 year for defective equipment. The customer is the end buyer and Ace Hardware is the Dealer in the chain of buying the equipment becomes the dealer. Vicki just go buy one down at Ace and if you have trouble with it. Call Ace and tell them to come fix it. they will say No and then have it fixed and send the bill to Ace by way of the small claims court. Louisiana has a 1 year labor warrenty on every piece of equipment and you need to check Az. out on how long the labor warrenty is in Az. . It will be the warrenty given by any dealer in your state if they don't come fix it the first year. The local Ace Mom and pop store is in for a surprise if anyone figures it out. Mom and Pop becomes the dealer that sold it and the excuse of I sold it but i did not install it , does not work. Now you see why Low's and Home Cheap-0 is getting dealer to install their stuff because they want a dealer to look at to go fix it under warranty. Mom and Pop have not been to school like Home Depot and Low's has. If this was not true, Low's and other would sell them to anybody who walk through the door and never require a dealer to install them. If one of their dealers or a dealer of their liking don't install it. You don't get a warrenty and will sign a disclaimer before you get it. Now there is another one on this. That Disclaimer is just about as good as toilet paper if you bring them into court. In Louisiana Disclaimer don't work on customers for they don't know about what they are doing by signing it and the law says if you sell it you warrant it. Mom and Pop have not been to school yet, but it is coming. TURTLE |
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When Turtle says "hack" he's usually in the past meant a paid worker who
does poor quality work. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org www.mormons.com "Richard J Kinch" wrote in message . .. TURTLE writes: Richard , Your a Hack Maginet if i ever saw one or heard one reply on the newsgroup. All the Hacks out there listening to what is said and they are smilling like a mule eating briars. Spoken by a rare gentlemen among scoundrels. It appears by "hack" you mean "do-it-yourselfer who knows what he's doing". And I do like to make them smile, mules as we may be. |
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TURTLE writes:
Kinch , You must have missed Eco. 101 in Collage. it say the more money changes hand the better the System works. If you sell everything at wholesale , there would be nobody to bring it to you or work on it. Everything you say is true ... except I did take, literally, Econ 101. Yes, retailing earns its markup. What I object to is outfits that will sell quantity 1, but only to those with certain qualifications that have nothing to do with the economics of the transaction, in order to "protect" the trade. Reminds me of the hair stuff sold only to "licensed beauticians". |
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Labor could be $60 - $80 /hr depending on where you live. Compressor or
condensing unit, the price you pay is double what the installer's company pays. In fact, everything they use, fittings, copper, freon, is doubled Figure 1 hr, without ANY other THAN LABOR. "Richard J Kinch" wrote in message ... TURTLE writes: Kinch , You must have missed Eco. 101 in Collage. it say the more money changes hand the better the System works. If you sell everything at wholesale , there would be nobody to bring it to you or work on it. Everything you say is true ... except I did take, literally, Econ 101. Yes, retailing earns its markup. What I object to is outfits that will sell quantity 1, but only to those with certain qualifications that have nothing to do with the economics of the transaction, in order to "protect" the trade. Reminds me of the hair stuff sold only to "licensed beauticians". |
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Left crosspost in place due to massive ignorance from whoever Sallyd is..
wrote in message t... Labor could be $60 - $80 /hr depending on where you live. 10 years ago...maybe. Not too many service companies will survive on that. Compressor or condensing unit, the price you pay is double what the installer's company pays. In fact, everything they use, fittings, copper, freon, is doubled And that would be a lie...at best, you have been misinformed. Figure 1 hr, without ANY other THAN LABOR. So....you give your time away to your employer as well I suppose? If you havent done this, try it some time and see how you like it... Go in on a Monday, and tell your boss that he has you free, for 3 days..each week..you only need to get paid for the remaining 2. "Richard J Kinch" wrote in message ... TURTLE writes: Kinch , You must have missed Eco. 101 in Collage. it say the more money changes hand the better the System works. If you sell everything at wholesale , there would be nobody to bring it to you or work on it. Everything you say is true ... except I did take, literally, Econ 101. Yes, retailing earns its markup. What I object to is outfits that will sell quantity 1, but only to those with certain qualifications that have nothing to do with the economics of the transaction, in order to "protect" the trade. Reminds me of the hair stuff sold only to "licensed beauticians". |
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In article ,
Richard J Kinch wrote: Everything you say is true ... except I did take, literally, Econ 101. Yes, retailing earns its markup. What I object to is outfits that will sell quantity 1, but only to those with certain qualifications that have nothing to do with the economics of the transaction, in order to "protect" the trade. Reminds me of the hair stuff sold only to "licensed beauticians". You have no idea of the training cosmotologists go through or the medical aspects. Whine as you like Kinch but the world doesn't revolve around your socialist ass. |
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wrote in message t... Labor could be $60 - $80 /hr depending on where you live. Compressor or condensing unit, the price you pay is double what the installer's company pays. In fact, everything they use, fittings, copper, freon, is doubled Figure 1 hr, without ANY other THAN LABOR. This is Turtle. You forgot one small thing. If the condenser unit or compressor burns up in 1 year or less. the servce man charging all this over charges is going to fix it for nothing the next time during that 1 year warrenty period. If we screw up, we have to pay for the repairs for the warrenty period . A Brand new Chevy Silverodo King Cab fully loaded cost to the manufactor to produce is about $6,800.00 . They sell for $28,000.00 to $35,000.00 and who's getting this big bunch of cash for nothing by selling them. Now they sometimes fix or replace them for 5 years or a 100k miles. TURTLE |
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x-post left intentionally
"Richard J Kinch" wrote in message ... TURTLE writes: Kinch , You must have missed Eco. 101 in Collage. it say the more money changes hand the better the System works. If you sell everything at wholesale , there would be nobody to bring it to you or work on it. Everything you say is true ... except I did take, literally, Econ 101. Yes, retailing earns its markup. What I object to is outfits that will sell quantity 1, but only to those with certain qualifications that have nothing to do with the economics of the transaction, in order to "protect" the trade. Reminds me of the hair stuff sold only to "licensed beauticians". Kinch.........You never answered the question I asked a week ago......... Just exactly what is it that you do??? how much are you overpaid?? what does it cost you to pay for a roof over your head??? how much does it cost to feed your family??? how much does it cost for your medical and dental insurance?? how much do you pay in taxes?? how much does it cost to run and maintain your vehicles??? how much less can you get paid and still survive?? inquiring minds want to know. one more question to add to the mix.... How many hours a week do *you* work before you demand to be paid overtime??? inquiring minds still want to know. -- Steve @ Noon-Air Heating & A/C The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous now as it was in Sampsons time. |
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Noon-Air writes:
Kinch.........You never answered the question I asked a week ago......... Just exactly what is it that you do? Google "Richard Kinch" (no quotes): http://www.google.com/search?q=richard+kinch 16,500 hits today. 9 of top 10 are about me. Google "Richard J Kinch" (in double quotes), 1570 hits, all me. For another one of my unusually successful pro-bono do-it-yourself enterprises (besides HVAC), Google "garage door spring" (no quotes). Mine is the second of the top ten, the one with actual advice vs yelling "no touchie!" or trying to sell something. What do I do? Among other things, I spend a fair amount of time every day answering fan mail from fellow do-it-yourself'ers. |
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Compressor or
condensing unit, the price you pay is double what the installer's company pays. In fact, everything they use, fittings, copper, freon, is doubled Nothing wrong with that. The do-it-yourself'er buys one at a time, you buy 'em by the truckload. Of course I stocked up on a lifetime supply of R-12 in 1990, and R-22 later, when it was still cheap and legal. I'll bet you pay more today than I did then, carrying costs included. |
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In article ,
Richard J Kinch wrote: Compressor or condensing unit, the price you pay is double what the installer's company pays. In fact, everything they use, fittings, copper, freon, is doubled Nothing wrong with that. The do-it-yourself'er buys one at a time, you buy 'em by the truckload. Of course I stocked up on a lifetime supply of R-12 in 1990, and R-22 later, when it was still cheap and legal. I'll bet you pay more today than I did then, carrying costs included. So... have you been paying the tax on that refrigerant every year? You do know you owe tax on it don't you kinchy? |
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