On 27 Jul 2018 19:17:43 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

Then I'll take her for a test drive. Is there a bedding procedure for
clutches like there is for brakes?
not really - - -

Thanks yet again Clare,
You give me the confidence to move forward on these tough-for-me jobs!

The test went supremely.
The clutch grabbed well, and low on the pedal uplift cycle.
Previously it grabbed too softly and super high (last half inch).
Now it grabs in the first few inches and grabs well.
I even stalled it a couple of times during a K turn.
I warned the driver to slip the clutch when doing slow speed K turns.

To help everyone, I'm finishing up the tutorial (which took more time to
write during the DIY than the DIY itself, as always).

I have hundreds of pictures (maybe even a thousand) so it will take a while
to choose the best ones (the lighting was horrid).

On Sat, 28 Jul 2018 06:32:15 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

On 27 Jul 2018 19:16:22 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

If it's a 1:1 ratio, then it would seem only the teenies tinyies twist of
the driveshaft is what's needed.

Is that assumption correct?

yes

Thanks again for all your help.
I am happy to have finally, after many decades of being afraid of doing a
transmission, gotten my "boy scout badge" for doing one.

It's probably my first and last transmission ever, but I have already
forgotten about the "thousand situps" I did, in effect, by getting up and
down to get tools and parts over the past five days.

I'm told sometimes even transmission shops take as long (elapsed time) as I
did to replace a clutch, although I would think, in actual shop hours, the
job would be less than six or seven hours (I'm guessing though).

On a rwd car or light truck anything over 3 hours means the mechanic
is slacking oir something went wrong.

I did a Loadstar school bus clutch with the shop foreman (an idiot
dutchman) barking over my shoulder when I was about 19 in less than 4
hours - and that included pulling the trans, dropping the clutch,
installing the clutch (having the disk slip out of place and hastilly
re-installing it) totally re-assembling then finding I had, in haste,
installed the disk backwards - dissassembling it again. puttingthe
disk back in the right way, knocking the release bearing off the fork,
reinstalling it in haste, checking the clutch BEFORE reistalling the
floor this time, and having the pedal drop to the floor because I had
put the release bearing in backwards, dis-assembling, reinstalling the
release bearing, retesting (got it right this time) and buttoning it
back up.

Nasty 400 lb? transmission, and working INSIDE the bell housing as the
bell housing served as the rear mounting for the engine.

I was a few minutes over flat rate time - even with all the screw-ups
- and I gave the shop foreman a good piece of my mind when it was all
over.

"push me and all you'll do is slow mw down - or get run over in the
process"

Same fool who couldn't diagnose a headlight problem on a 510 Datsun -
all 4 sealed beams were burned out. He kept asking me questions while
I was working on another job. After his second or third question I
knew what was wrong - but he kept asking the wrong questions for 2
hours - while trying to tell me how to fix a dome light that would not
shut oiff on a brand new Ambassador (found a screw through the wiring
harness)

When I finished the Ambassador I said "you still working on that
datsun?"

He said "you so F'n smart - YOU fix it"
I hollered tothe parts department "2 5001s and 2 5006s please", then
proceded to replace the sealed beams , without checking ANYTHING
first.

He was MAD that I hadn't told him what was wrong - bet the silly ass
had never asked me. He's managed to ask just about every other
question it was possible to come up with (something like you do on
accaision, Arlen) - but never asked me what I thought the problem was.



It took me longer because I documented every single step down to the detail
of the thread pitch, and I took many pictures, and I cleaned up the parts,
and I had to learn each time how to do the steps I had never done (like
aligning the transmission splines).

Most of the time the answers came too late, as I had figured them out by
then, but it's very nice to know that the solution I came up with (except
on torque) was the right one in the end.

I don't know what I'll do with that transmission jack. It will probably
take up space in my garage forever though.

Clean it up, paint it gold, and keep it as a trophy - - - -

On Sat, 28 Jul 2018 08:32:40 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

On 27 Jul 2018 19:17:43 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

Then I'll take her for a test drive. Is there a bedding procedure for
clutches like there is for brakes?
not really - - -

Thanks yet again Clare,
You give me the confidence to move forward on these tough-for-me jobs!

The test went supremely.
The clutch grabbed well, and low on the pedal uplift cycle.
Previously it grabbed too softly and super high (last half inch).
Now it grabs in the first few inches and grabs well.
I even stalled it a couple of times during a K turn.
I warned the driver to slip the clutch when doing slow speed K turns.


Guaranteeing you'll get to do the job again??

No need to EVER "slip" a clutch.(unless you have a severely
under-powerd vehicle) - with the exception possibly of pulling away on
a STEEP hill. Just learn to co-ordinate the throttle and the clutch.


To help everyone, I'm finishing up the tutorial (which took more time to
write during the DIY than the DIY itself, as always).

I have hundreds of pictures (maybe even a thousand) so it will take a while
to choose the best ones (the lighting was horrid).

On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 12:14:55 AM UTC-5, rbowman wrote:
On 07/27/2018 08:24 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
When I was a young man in college I changed the automatic transmission on a Slant Six in a 1965 Dodge Dart by hand. I put the transmission on my belly, grabbed the bell housing with my hands and used my feet to hold the tail shaft. Picked it up and slid it into place. Me and my brother used to change the little TorqueFlite transmissions on our Slant Six Darts and Valiants in that manner on a regular basis since we were always experimenting with the cars. ^_^

I did the Torqueflite on my '60 Plymouth that way. Being young and dumb
I tried to 'rebuild' it. Eventually I replaced the wreckage with a
manual and a homegrown hydraulic clutch. That was fine until a state
trooper checked my emergency brake or the lack thereof. The Torquflite
had a drum brake on the tail shaft, the manual didn't. Next up was
replacing the rear axle with one that had emergency brake capability and
fabbing the linkage for it.

Fortunately Uncle Sam interrupted my project so I pulled the engine and
gave it to a friend and sent what was left to the scrap yard. I figured
Nixon was going to get me killed and I wouldn't need a car.

Funny how things work out. I wound up 4F when I tried to join up but my older brother did two tours in Nam as a Green Beret and he wound up in places/countries he wasn't officially supposed to be. O_o

[8~{} Uncle Old Monster

On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 20:44:06 -0600, rbowman
wrote:

On 07/27/2018 07:23 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
Cast iron. OMG. This one is aluminum, thank God. And 2WD. And I had taken
all the fluid out. So it was a light as it was going to get, and still, I
wouldn't do that job without a transmission jack.

The 3 and 4 speed transmissions with aluminum housings don't weigh that
much. Particularly when you're twenty.

The Chrysler otoh was a piece of work. It was very early in the
development of automatics so it had both a clutch and a fluid coupling.

Not an automatic at all - the infamous "fluid drive" or "Hy-Drive"
transmissin.

Put it in high, floor it, and 0 to 30 in about 65 seconds - - - Shift
it like a "normal" standard and it was significantly quicker, but
still slow compared to a standard.

https://www.allpar.com/mopar/m6.html

The moment of truth was when I took the whole weight and realized I
might be going for a personal best bench press.

You want to do it with a cast iron powergglide in a '60 Biscayne - -
DON'T try it with a Dynaglyde!!!!! - -

The rest of the car followed suit. It was a straight 8, cast iron block
of course. No power steering. It was pleasant on the highway but my wife
used words I didn't think she knew trying to parallel park the beast.

They don't make cars like that anymore. Thank the Gods. At about 4500
pounds 0 to 60 took a while.

Thne heaviest flathead 8 Chrysler ( not Imperial or Town and Country)
was the 47 Saratoga 4 door - at a sprightly3972 lbs with the TC New
Yorker coming in at 4344.



The '49 Crown Imperial limo tipped the scakes at almost 5300.

. My '62 Continental weighed in over 5000

4927 for the sedan, 5215 for the ragtop

pounds but it had a modern 430 ci V-8 and was a supercar compared to a
flat head straight 8 that was designed in the early '30s.

On 28 Jul 2018 10:21:51 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

Guaranteeing you'll get to do the job again??

No need to EVER "slip" a clutch.(unless you have a severely
under-powerd vehicle) - with the exception possibly of pulling away on
a STEEP hill. Just learn to co-ordinate the throttle and the clutch.

This OP learned how to shift from someone else, where I've told her so many
times to "be gentle" on that clutch pedal that I gave up long ago.

She's not my biological kid.
When she does a K turn, it's like 20 points.

I thank you for all your help becuase without that help, I wouldn;t have
the courage to continue.

I did figure out on my own to use "parafilm" to follow your grease trick:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2648766seal_tools.jpg

And, I used that same parafilm to lock the 17mm upper bolts to the socket:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9271104parafilm.jpg

This was instrumental because they were on 30 inch long extensions:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5298750extension_bar.jpg

Which had to reach the bolts head on from the back of the transmission:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1020097jack_stand.jpg

And I had to modify the transmission stand to allow it to angle forward:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4353722jack_mod.jpg

Overall, I learned a lot, where I could do it again in half the time, I
think, since I know now how to do what I didnt' know before I asked!

On 28 Jul 2018 10:52:32 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

You want to do it with a cast iron powergglide in a '60 Biscayne - -
DON'T try it with a Dynaglyde!!!!! - -

I'm super glad my first transmission is aluminum, where it needed onlytwo
feet of height to clear the frame rails:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9934173minimum_height.jpg

Where it was a Godsend to have this clutch disk alignment tool:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9651345clutch_disc.jpg

For some reason, the fork kept knocking the throwout bearing off the
spindle so I had to tie it down with tire tube ties:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5303450clutch_fork.jpg

The best thing I did was machine those two 3-inch long dowel pins!
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3822810dowel_pins.jpg

But I wish I had done the rear transmission seal like you suggested:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5819021trans_seal.jpg

And the rear engine oil seal (but Toyota didn't have it in stock):
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3049446dowel_pinned.jpg

Next time I'll do them!

On 27 Jul 2018 18:10:52 GMT, rbowman wrote:

Reading between the lines he is not the principal driver. Maybe take it
for a long, gentle road trip before handing it over...

She drove it today on the highway and said it didn't vibrate, which is good
because I had mounted and balanced her tires and replaced her rear drums
where I made a rookie mistake by not putting the drum linkages back right.

This time, I rotated the tires again (she eats them up where I wish there
was a way to cash in on the warranty since the car is aligned
professionally and the tires are rotated five times a year in the X and
then H pattern repeatedly (X then H then X then H, etc.).

I wonder if there is a way to "prove" you rotated tires when you do them at
home? I never cashed in on a tire warranty in my life so I don't know how
it works (do you ship them back the four tires, for example?).

I learned a lot I hadn't expected to learn, by the way, such as this is
what the reverse sensor looks like apparently:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2972461reverse_switch.jpg

And this is apparently the speedometer sensor:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8225189speedometer.jpg

And that the clutch disc is asymmetric so it has to go in only this way:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4293915clutch_disc.jpg

Filling the transmission with the Red Line MT-90 was a breeze from the top:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6063171trans_fliud.jpg

But I wonder what this strange-looking "K" means on the conning tower?
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1401901tower_k.jpg

On 28 Jul 2018 10:18:34 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

On a rwd car or light truck anything over 3 hours means the mechanic
is slacking oir something went wrong.

Thanks for that information on the 3 hours as this is a RWD, and a 2WD
which has as much room as you can every have on a passenger vehicle.

So, I suspect, the job doesn't get any easier than the one I did, since
there is no 4WD to deal with and the amount of room is astronomical
compared to, oh, say, a typical sports sedan.

I didn't count the hours it took me, but if I count four hours each day of
actual work, that's 6x4=24 hours, which is, for me, acceptable because I
spent a lot of time learning, cleaning, experimenting, making tools,
modifying the jack, swearing, and cursing, and, drinking copious amounts of
lemonade kindly brought to me every few hours by the grandchildren (who
felt sorry for me but who didn't know I was in heaven as I finally, after
decades of being scared, did my first transmission).

The kid whose car it is came over today to pick it up, and she tested it on
the highway, and it worked fine she said (I only tested it locally).

It has 180K miles, where it's definitely only the second clutch as the
vehicle has been in the family since it was born. So a clutch on this
vehicle lasts about 90K miles, on average, since the last one was slipping
also when it was replaced (by a mechanic).

Total cost to me was something around $250 for tools and another $250 for
parts, so it's an approximately $500 gift to the kid who works as a
secretary so she doesn't have a lot of money.

I never could have had the confidence if I didn't know you would help, so
I'm extremely glad for your patience on my rookie questions. I didn't even
realize that the alignment tool did, for example, until *after* I had the
transmission in. And I didn't understand why people said to put it in high
gear since I didn't need to touch the gears at any point in time, so I only
figured that one out after I had trouble getting it back in.

Things like that slowed me down, where, if I had formal education in auto
mechanics, I would have known a LOT more before I did the job. As it is,
the job taxed my tools to the utmost limit, where I was so happy that I had
dozens of assorted half inch and three-eighths inch extensions and swivels
and sockets and wrenches.

In fact, I think this is the first time in my life that I *required*
half-inch tools, since up until now, the 3/8ths inch extensions didn't
twist more than the torque required. But I never had to use 30 inches of
extension before either - which is what is required for the top two bolts
on the transmission hump.

Note in the DIY: Removing the conning tower seems like it would have made a
HUGE improvement in easy of removal!

I did a Loadstar school bus clutch with the shop foreman (an idiot
dutchman) barking over my shoulder when I was about 19 in less than 4
hours - and that included pulling the trans, dropping the clutch,
installing the clutch (having the disk slip out of place and hastilly
re-installing it) totally re-assembling then finding I had, in haste,
installed the disk backwards - dissassembling it again. puttingthe
disk back in the right way, knocking the release bearing off the fork,
reinstalling it in haste, checking the clutch BEFORE reistalling the
floor this time, and having the pedal drop to the floor because I had
put the release bearing in backwards, dis-assembling, reinstalling the
release bearing, retesting (got it right this time) and buttoning it
back up.

Wow. 4 hours. Jesus. I didn't even have all the tools assembled, made and
modified in four hours!

I see you accidentally did what I did which is to knock the release bearing
(aka throwout bearing) off, where any tug on the fork caused the TOB to
fall off the splined transmission shaft until I rubber-banded it in place.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5303450clutch_fork.jpg

I didn't remove that rubber band until I put the slave cylinder back!
(NOTE: I recently rebuilt the clutch master cylinder and clutch slave
cylinder and replaced the two rubbery plastic bushings in the shift lever,
so, except for the actual transmission itself, the entire shifting system
is all new in the last year.)

I did buy too many jacks though - as now I have an ATV jack in addition to
my transmission jack to store for the rest of my life! (I've already
offered my neighbors the right to borrow them since "they" have ATVs, but I
don't.) http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9075127atv_trans_jack.jpg

Nasty 400 lb? transmission, and working INSIDE the bell housing as the
bell housing served as the rear mounting for the engine.

Yuck. You never forget those jobs!
(I envy you for all your experience!)

I was a few minutes over flat rate time - even with all the screw-ups
- and I gave the shop foreman a good piece of my mind when it was all
over.

It's commendable, with the reassembly you did, that you met flat rate.

"push me and all you'll do is slow mw down - or get run over in the
process"

Luckily, my wife and kids left me alone, which is all well and good as they
would have been standing over me like your foreman was, just slowing me
down even further.

Same fool who couldn't diagnose a headlight problem on a 510 Datsun -
all 4 sealed beams were burned out. He kept asking me questions while
I was working on another job. After his second or third question I
knew what was wrong - but he kept asking the wrong questions for 2
hours - while trying to tell me how to fix a dome light that would not
shut oiff on a brand new Ambassador (found a screw through the wiring
harness)

Wow. That's something you just have to trace to find since you wouldn't
expect a screw in a wiring harness normally. You work backward or forward,
usually backward, until the power or continuity is shot, and that tells you
where the problem is ... if ... if you can get to it. (A wiring harness can
be anywhere though.)

When I finished the Ambassador I said "you still working on that
datsun?"

He said "you so F'n smart - YOU fix it"

Hehhehheh...

I hollered to the parts department "2 5001s and 2 5006s please", then
proceded to replace the sealed beams , without checking ANYTHING
first.

Wow. You figured it out just on the problem set presented to you.

He was MAD that I hadn't told him what was wrong - bet the silly ass
had never asked me. He's managed to ask just about every other
question it was possible to come up with (something like you do on
accaision, Arlen) - but never asked me what I thought the problem was.

I do ask a lot of questions ... but ... on the good side ... you have to
admit that I think for myself (I don't think what everyone else thinks for
example, in that I think about octane, and I think about how to diagnose as
I never throw parts at a problem unless I'm backed up against the wall, and
I always look at the parts to figure out how they work and I often take
them apart for an autopsy to see how they failed.

I should note to you that I'm extremely well educated but not in this
stuff. I have multiple degrees, but in fields completely different than car
or home repair. So I'm very used to asking questions, and I'm extremely
used to what people "think" is the answer intuitively, often (and sometimes
almost always, at least in the case of quantum mechanics) is dead wrong.

So, for example, people "think" you can't balance tires at home ... but you
can. And they think you can't mount them at home - but you can. And they
think you can't measure alignment at home, but you can (I still need to
prove that though).

Another thing about me, Clare, that is extremely different than most
people, is that I CARE about being a good Usenet citizen, even as I value
my privacy. So I always *respond* to most people in any thread I author,
which some people consider trolling, which is ridiculous since I'm simply
being responsive.

I almost always prove what I say I'm doing with photos.
And I almost always write up a DIY to give back to the team.

I almost always summarize the results in the end, and I thank the people
for helping me (where, I often condemn those who don't like the few who
posted early on in this thread, such as Wade Garrett who has been stalking
me from the iOS threads) but in this case, I had too much on my hands to
even bother to tell those useless posters to shut up.

I'm DIFFERENT than almost everyone you've ever met.

How many, for example, write a detailed DIY every time they do a big job?

Other than my privacy fetish (which drives some of you nuts I think even
though I never hide who I am so anyone who claims to figure it out isn't
the genius they think they are simply because it's trivial to do), I'm one
of the best Usenet posters there is because I ask a question and prove
everything I say, and try out every reasonable suggestion (if possible) and
I respond to everyone in the same manner in which they responded to me.

I'm only on Usenet to ask questions and to learn from people who have the
answers. I'm not here for idle chitchat, so I disappear until I have
another question.

I love to learn from you, and I will eventually do the six jobs few do at
home but you've done most of them.
1. Refuel a vehicle (I do it every week where I have it down to a science)
2. Mount, balance, & repair tires (I'm well past the tool break-even point)
3. Major transmission work (a clutch counts since R&R is the hard part)
4. Major internal engine work (I've never ripped an engine apart yet)
5. Paint a car (a grandchild has a handmedown I'd love to paint for her)
6. Align caster, camber & toe (this will be my next project for sure)

I think each of those things above has a DIFFERENT reason people don't do
them, where you have to admit at the very least, even if you disagree with
me, that I think for myself, so I don't follow what most people assume (and
which in some cases I've found to be dead wrong).

For example, refueling a vehicle is trivial, safe, and easy, and I've been
doing that for a decade or more at home (where if I ever get some money,
I'll buy even better gas-station equipment, which is surprisingly
inexpensive but where the limiting factor isn't the equipment but that they
don't deliver less than 200 gallons at a time in general).

Also, despite what most people think, and yes, I know you have TONS of
experience mounting and dynamically balancing a tire and you wouldn't do it
at home, I can mount and balance a sedan tire in fifteen minutes (and you
know that I don't make **** up), where in general, I take longer (because
I'm not in a rush) but it's never longer than a half hour elapsed time
where once you taught me about the "drop center", all was golden from there
(after I had to modify both the tire bead breaker and the tire mounting
tool).

I think the reason people DON'T do these 6 things is... sort of...
1. Fueling --- they don't have the room (I have more than a dozen acres)
2. Mounting --- they "think" it has to be dynamically balanced
3. Transmission --- it's a *lot* of work (whew!) but mostly just bolts
4. Engine --- it's even *more* work (where nobody can afford the downtime)
5. Paint --- you need skills and experience more than the tools
6. Align --- they don't realize how easy toe & camber are to measure

I may be wrong on all of that, because I don't know how people really
think, but you have to admit at least that I think for myself.

Take, for example, the mounting. I already know that mounting is *easy* on
passenger cars, and that it's only a bit harder on truck (SUV) tires.
Anyone who says it's not easy, or that you'll damage the rims (my Bimmer
rims are as soft as most alloy wheels and they're just fine) is talking out
of their ass - because I know - like you know - because I've done it about
25 times now (the tools paid for themselves in about 20 changes).

Anyone who thinks you can't patch plug from the inside doesn't know what
they're talking about. And anyone who thinks you must dynamically balance
every tire doesn't know what they're talking about (IMHO).

I had only one wobble in all this time, and that was due to doing the rear
brake drum wrong (it was a rookie mistake - where I've had disc brakes on
all my high end cars since the 80s until now that I do other people's cars
to help them out. (I know you think that's a lawsuit waiting to happen, but
I do the same on their cars as I would mine where I *know* (as you do) how
many times mechanics skip steps.)

So, yes, I'm different.
I'm intelligent.
I can learn.
I care about my privacy.
I respond to almost everyone worth responding to.
I usually confront the cowardly troll bullies in the threads I author
I ask a question and work it until it's resolved
I post a resolution and almost always write a DIY
And then I disappear (until the next question).

The morons call that being a troll.
I call it being a good Usenet citizen who cares about privacy and doesn't
use the chitchat model (where in the chitchat model people post 99% to
other threads saying almost nothing of value and only 1% to their own
threads, where in the Q&A model, the opposite it true in every way).

Clean it up, paint it gold, and keep it as a trophy - - - -

I have tools from the 60s, and even some from the 40's, like this grease
gun, where the grease must be thirty years or forty years old inside!
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7261355grease_gun.jpg

QUESTION: That was my dad's grease gun. How old do you think it is?
(I don't know when he bought it as I inherited all his old tools.)

And these impact tools date to the mid 80's as I recall:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6129026airgun_sucks.jpg

This Craftsman respirator I used when I was blowing out the bell housing
and flywheel dust dates to the 80s for sure when I first attempted
to paint a car (but ended up selling the car in the winter where if you've
never lived in a cold climate - you have no idea how much harder everything
is in the winter and when it rains a lot).
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7615636respirator.jpg

And without a cutting wheel and bench grinder, fabricating these two
invaluable threaded dowels would not have been as easy as they we
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9848347dowel_fab.jpg

My next two jobs that you'll hear from me a
a. I want to paint a car, and,
b. I want to align a suspension.

I think both of those two are doable, but I will do my research first and
then, when I'm in the job itself, I may ask you for help to get past the
stumbling blocks.

I don't expect a miracle with the paint job, but anything will look better
than the handmedown paint that the kid has on the car now so I can't make
it much worse.

As for the alignment, this vehicle only has camber and toe in the front
that can be changed by twisting a bolt, so that's easy if I buy (or make)
toe plates. The measuring is easy but changing the toe with the weight on
the vehicle is a pain because of the rolling back and forth so I'll likely
just buy toe plates first. Also alignment is a mental bitch because
everything is in the wrong units. You measure inches, for example, but it's
usually in degrees to centerline. WTF. That causes your brain to hurt as
you use trig to figure out the translation.

At least camber is in degrees and you can measure degrees with today's
tools, so, the problem with camber is only getting a jig that works on
multiple vehicles since you have to offset the measuring tool parallel to
the wheel but away from the tire sidewall bulge (sure, there are ways to do
it with a plumb bob but I'd just go for the camber jig for ease of use).

Caster is usually too hard to measure directly, and for this car, it's not
settable anyway. You can calculate it, but what good is the calculation
when you can't set it.

In the rear, this vehicle only has camber and nothing else. So, when most
people think "alignment" they're thinking a $100K machine which is
optimized for a totally different use model than a guy checking his
alignment at home where time and the ability to measure everything isn't
the issue.

All you need is camber and toe for the most part, which means you need a
camber jig and toe plates and as accurate an electronic level as you an
afford.

Anyway, I'm DIFFERENT (which means we are different).
You don't enjoy changing tires, I do.
You think it's dangerous to not go to a mechanic, I think they skip steps.
You may think I'm a troll but I'm not and I am DOING stuff when I ask
things (I don't ask idly).

I should mention the only auto mechanics class I took was in high school in
the sixties, where I was a star pupil and the teacher's pet simply because
he never had anyone in his class so interested in the details. He once was
amazed that I rewound a motorcycle alternator and horn solenoid in the same
week, and that I kept asking questions about fluids, asking why the
viscosity didn't really matter but the API number did, or what really
needed distilled water (the battery) but not the coolant (in reality, once
you look at water chemistry where we lived). I took sulfuric acid from the
chem lab in high school (in those days, you didn't get expelled for
breaking the rules) and refilled my own battery - it lasted about a month
or two, as I recall).

I'm DIFFERENT than most people you've met - so I'm an acquired taste.

What I ask for, in this newsgroup, is the expertise of all the people here,
most of which outweighs mine because I'm educated in totally different
things.

HINT: Ask me about bacteria or electrical engineering and you'll get far
more than you bargained for.

Arlen Holder wrote:
On 27 Jul 2018 18:10:52 GMT, rbowman wrote:

Reading between the lines he is not the principal driver. Maybe take it
for a long, gentle road trip before handing it over...

She drove it today on the highway and said it didn't vibrate, which is good
because I had mounted and balanced her tires and replaced her rear drums
where I made a rookie mistake by not putting the drum linkages back right.

This time, I rotated the tires again (she eats them up where I wish there
was a way to cash in on the warranty since the car is aligned
professionally and the tires are rotated five times a year in the X and
then H pattern repeatedly (X then H then X then H, etc.).

I wonder if there is a way to "prove" you rotated tires when you do them at
home? I never cashed in on a tire warranty in my life so I don't know how
it works (do you ship them back the four tires, for example?).

I learned a lot I hadn't expected to learn, by the way, such as this is
what the reverse sensor looks like apparently:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2972461reverse_switch.jpg

And this is apparently the speedometer sensor:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=8225189speedometer.jpg

And that the clutch disc is asymmetric so it has to go in only this way:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4293915clutch_disc.jpg

Filling the transmission with the Red Line MT-90 was a breeze from the top:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6063171trans_fliud.jpg

But I wonder what this strange-looking "K" means on the conning tower?
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1401901tower_k.jpg


You should record all this long saga to a dvd, and give it to your great
grandchildren.

They will sit around campfires in 2060 and show the videos while
roasting marshmallows.

Maybe in 2160, they will still recollect old gram pa's heroic efforts in
the olden days.

Maybe a statue in the town square.

HINT: Ask me about bacteria or electrical engineering and you'll get far
more than you bargained for.


They are widely different field, but I am interested in both, for two
different reasons.

Do tell please. I welcome your expertise.

On 28 Jul 2018 16:23:08 GMT, Hank Rogers wrote:

They are widely different field, but I am interested in both, for two
different reasons.

Do tell please. I welcome your expertise.

You have to ask a question, silly!

I can't just spill my guts about both.

All I can say is I have higher degrees in both.

My point was I know nothing whatsoever about auto mechanics, so that's why
I very much appreciate your advice and help.

Here is the nascent (UNFINISHED!!!!!!!!!!!) WIP tutorial for replacing a
clutch on this specific vehicle.

Bear in mind that I have NOT yet added all the pictures, and I haven't
added umpteen notes that I added to this tutorial while I was doing the
work.

This is the UNFINISHED!!!!!! tutorial BEFORE I did the job, based on my
searches in the net, where I never found a single usable step-by-step
tutorial for this particular make and model vehicle.

Buy parts:
.. Aisen/Koyo clutch kit (Rockauto part number CKT-051
- Aisin disc stamped DTX-137L & 6H26
- Aisin diaphragm stamped Aisin 17.01.20 & CTX-106
- Koyo pilot bearing molded 6201 RS ROM 017 & Koyo 6201 RS ROM 057
- Koyo pilot bearing box printed 6201RSC3 & PBT-002
- Koyo release stamped Koyo Japan 49H & RCT356SA9 (aka throwout bearing)
- Koyo release bearing box printed RBT-004 & RCT356SA9 & FG Gen M1412
- Plastic alignment tool stamped USA 11 (this simple tool is critical!)
.. Note that some people use an old transmission shaft as the alignment tool
.. Rear engine oil seal Toyota Part No.: 90311-88003 (confirmed) $47.59
.. Rear transmission oil seal 90311-30014 (confirmed) $15.41

Consider buying optional parts:
.. Consider new sway bar bushings (since you will likely remove it anyway)
.. Consider a new fuel filter
.. Consider both upstream & downstream oxygen sensors (especially upstream)
.. Consider starter motor replacement (since you don't want to do it again!)
.. Consider rotating tires (since you have the vehicle in the air anyway)
.. Consider replacing differential gear lube (since you're in that area)

Buy fluids:
.. 2.7 quarts replacement Red Line Mt-90 75W90 GL4 gear lube
.. Thick high-moly graphite grease to lube the spline input shaft
.. Thick high-moly graphite grease to lube the ID of throwout bearing
.. Locktite blue (not red!) for the bellhousing & flywheel & starter bolts
.. Toyota FIPG (for the rear engine oil seal, but only if you remove the
plate)
.. No grease on diaphragm springs, pressure plate or throwout bearing face.
.. Light grease on throwout bearing ID, input shaft splines
.. Light grease on clutch fork pivot points & outside the shaft collar

Buy (or fabricate tools):
.. Transmission jack
.. Half-inch socket torque wrenches (from 30 foot pounds up to 85 foot
pounds)
.. Pilot bearing puller (although every one I tested was too large to fit!)
.. You must have 14mm 12-point half-inch sockets! (6 points will never fit!)
.. You must have 30 inches of 1/2-inch socket extension bars & swivels!
.. It helps to have the same 30 inches in 3/8ths-inch (for non-torque use)
.. Ersatz 17mm alignment pins, quantity=2 (M12x1.25 by about 3 inches long)

Torque specs:
.. 14 foot pounds, pressure plate to engine
.. 18 foot pounds, transmission rubber rear mount bolts
.. (19 ft lbs+1/4 turn for 3RZ or 65ftlbs for the 2RZ & 5VZ), flywheel
.. 30 foot pounds, starter bolts
.. 48 foot pounds, transmission crossmember-to-frame bolts
.. 54 foot pounds, bellhousing 17mm bolts
.. No loctite needed on any of these bolts is what is recommended by most

Photograph all components in situ:
.. Snap pictures of the cabin shift lever assembly before removal
.. Snap pictures of the wiring harness before removal
.. Snap pictures of the exhaust bracket location before removal
.. Snap pictures of the reverse sensor, speed sensor, & lambda sensors
.. Snap pictures of the driveshaft (and mark the shaft to differential)
.. Snap pictures of the transmission from all sides
.. Snap pictures of the starter motor from all sides
.. Snap pictures of the sway bar
.. Snap pictures of all the bell housing bolts

While the vehicle is still on the ground:
.. Disconnect the battery negative cable (10mm socket)
(This is needed because you will be removing the starter motor)

Remove shift lever from transmission conning tower:
.. The shift lever can be in any position, where neutral is fine
.. From the passenger side cabin, unscrew the shifter knob
(counterclockwise)
.. There is no need to loosen or remove either side brown plastic garnish
.. Don't remove the brown plastic garnish on either side - just leave it
.. Pry up the front of the black ashtray (it has a clip on each of the 4
corners)
.. Pull out on the driver side garnish
.. At the same time, pry up on the ashtray toward driver side door
.. That should remove the black ashtray from all four corner clips
.. With a P2 Phillips or 10mm socket, remove 4 rectangular-plate screws
.. Pull up on the boot until it stops about halfway up on the shaft
.. Don gloves & use a 1/8" flathead scewdriver for force
.. Press down hard on the inner ring of the shiftlever cap
.. Use the screwdriver as a pushrod & rotate the cap 1/8 turn
counterclockwise
.. This will pop it out
.. Remove the cabin gear shift mechanism
.. While above, snap pictures of the pitch-fork-shaped wiring harness:
.. http://www.showstop.org/images/misc/r150F-harness.jpg
.. If possible, unbolt the "conning tower" for the shift mechanism
(this is optional but will be extremely helpful later on)

Lift vehicle:
.. Chock rear wheels & set parking brake
.. Place two jackstands as far forward as you dare (under the A frame is
good)
.. Place two jackstands on the rear axle
.. Jack the car as high as you dare, since you'll need about two feet
.. The bellhousing alone is about 22 inches off the ground on the stand
.. 24 inches to the horizontal portion of the front frame wouldn't be too
much
.. Attempt to level the vehicle so the engine is level with the trans
.. While below, snap more pictures of the pitch-fork-shaped wiring harness
.. Notice the passenger side oxygen sensors before & after the cat
.. Notice the passenger side speedometer sensor
.. Notice the driver side reverse sensor
.. Notice the three main harness clips on the top of the transmission
.. Notice the dastardly location of the driver side starter motor

Remove front wheels:
.. Remove the front driver-side wheel (mandatory)
.. Pull back both access hole flaps so that you can access the starter motor
.. Optionally remove the passenger-side front wheel
.. You don't need to remove the rear wheels unless you'll be rotating them

Remove front sway bar:
.. Optionally remove the 6 bolts on the front sway bar
.. Remove the front sway bar

Drain fluid:
.. Loosen both the 24mm fill plug & 24mm drain plug
.. Drain the existing old Red Line MT-90 80W90 using the 24mm drain plug
.. Take care to fish out the aluminum washer if it doesn't stay on the plug

Remove slave cylinder:
.. Remove 2x12mm bolts for the clutch slave cylinder
.. Hang clutch slave cylinder safely on hangar wire if necessary
.. Optionally, rubber band the clutch fork in the forward position
(this is so that the throwout bearing doesn't slide off the splines)

Disconnect exhaust pipe bracket:
.. Don't disconnect the exhaust pipe (leave the pipe exactly where it is)
.. Remove two 17mm bolts holding exhaust pipe bracket to transmission
housing
.. Remove the 12mm bolts holding exhaust pipe into the bracket
.. (You MUST remove the bracket as it will prevent transmission removal!)

Remove passenger side wiring harness connections:
.. Remove 1x12mm bolt holding the upstream O2 sensor bracket
.. Remove 1x12mm bolt holding the speedometer in place
.. Put a pan under the speedometer to catch inevitable drippings
.. Wiggle & pull out the three-screw plastic speedometer sensor
.. (Note that it's easier to unbolt sensors first & then unclip them)

Remove driver side wiring harness connections:
.. Remove 1x12mm bolt holding harness next to the fill plug
.. Loosen (do not remove) 1x1-1/16 bolt holding reverse sensor
.. It's impossible to twist off the reverse sensor so don't try!
.. Twist reverse sensor 180 degrees to access clip connection
.. Press the clip connection to disconnect the harness from the sensor

Remove the 3 main harness connectors on top of the transmission:
.. (Access all three from the driver side using socket extensions)
.. Remove the 14mm harness bracket bolt at the bell-to-engine line
.. Remove the 10mm harness bracket bolt at the bell-waist line
.. Remove the 14mm harness bracket bolt at the trans centerline
.. From below, fish the loose harness into the shift lever opening
.. From above, wire hanger the harness to the steering wheel

Remove driveshaft:
.. Mark the alignment on both ends of the driveshaft
.. Remove the four rear-facing drive shaft 14mm bolts
.. Temporarily release the parking brake if necessary
.. Twist the drive shaft with the parking brake off to access the bolts
.. Pull the back end down & pull driveshaft out of the transmission
.. You may need the driveshaft to align the transmission splines later on
.. Reset the parking brake

Remove the starter housing bolts:
.. Remove the lower 14mm bolt holding the brake line & a harness connector
.. Remove the upper 14mm bolt holding the top of the starter to the
bellhousing
.. You can't easily access the bolts so try from below, above, & from the
side
.. It's MUCH easier if you remove *all* bellhousing harness connectors!
.. Allow the entire harness to fall straight down at the bellhousing
.. Or tuck the harness into the driver side wheel well
.. The starter motor will fall down of its own weight so tie it securely
.. (It can't be overly stressed to remove all harness connections first!)

..... work in progress ... I need to add a LOT to the rest of this DIY ...

Remove the bellhousing bolts (count all seven!, plus 2 for the starter):
.. Start with bottom bolts before you place the transmission jack in the way
.. Then do the upper bolts, once the transmission jack is in place.
.. 1st remove the forward facing 14mm bolt & nut at the 5:30 bell housing
position
.. 2nd remove the forward facing 14mm bolt & nut at the 7:00 bell housing
position
.. 3rd remove the rearward facing 14mm bolt at the 6:30 bell housing
position
.. 4th remove the rearward facing 14mm bolt at the 3:30 bell housing
position
.. Then remove the engine-facing plate covering the lower half of the bell
housing
.. 5th (just in case) remove the forward facing 12mm bolt at the 11:00 bell
housing position
.. This bolt holds some sort of cooling or vacuum lines the back of the
engine
.. 6th remove the forward facing 17mm bolt at the 9:30 bell housing position
.. Access that bolt from underneath using a sockt + short swivel + 3"
extension
.. 7th remove the forward facing 17mm bolt at the 11:30 bell housing
position
.. Access that bolt from the rear of the transmission behind the crossmember
.. I used about 30 inches of 1/2-inch socket extensions (no swivel needed)
.. 8th remove the forward facing 17mm bolt at the 12:30 bell housing
position
.. I used about 30 inches of 1/2-inch socket extensions (a swivel was
needed)
.. I used about 30 inches of 1/2-inch socket extensions (a swivel was
needed)
.. I used a 17mm impact socket + 5" swivel + 10" + 6" + 10" + 3" half-inch
extensions
.. I first tried 3/8" extensions but they simply twisted given the force
.. It's still useful to have 3/8" extensions for non-torque removal &
reassembly
.. I used a 17mm socket + 6" swivel + 24" + 6" three-eights-inch extensions

Check that everything is out of the way:
.. Zip tie any cables in place so that they don't get damaged later
.. Then support the transmission with a transmission jack or jack saddle
.. It is said that the rear will be slightly lower than the front for the
jack
.. Strap the transmission in but rout the straps under any wires

Disconnect the rear of the transmission:
.. Remove the 12mm & 14mm bolts holding the rear transmission mount assembly
.. Tip the front down an twist the front of the transmission to the driver
side
.. Pull out straight where the shaft must be aligned & the dowels stick
sometimes
.. Keep the straps loose until you pull away & then tighten the straps
.. Lower the transmission (by hand is ok if you can)
.. Mark the drive shaft to the crank shaft alignment with a sharpie
.. Flywheel bolts will require an impact driver almost certainly.

Disassembly:
.. Don't breathe the dust (use a respirator if necessary)
.. Use a star pattern to remove 12mm bolts holding clutch onto bell housing
.. Snap pictures of the asymmetrical nature of the clutch disc before
removing!
.. Note the asymetric springs as they stick out of the clutch disc!
.. (The Toyota 2.7L I4 engine has the disc springs toward the pressure
plate)
.. (The Toyota 3.4L V6 engine has the disc springs toward the flywheel)
.. Remove the clutch disc
.. Remove the pressure plate
.. Remove the ten (12-point) 14mm bolts ringing the flywheel to the engine
.. Have the flywheel replaced or resurfaced
.. Remove the flywheel pilot bearing with a bearing puller

Alignment pins:
.. Consider picking up exact bolts but 2 to 3 inches longer
.. Cut off the heads, & saw a screwdriver channel
.. Use them as alignment pins when replacing
.. Notice the steel dowels between the engine & transmission

On reassembly (which most DIYs ignore), these topics came up in other DIYs:
.. A screwdriver wedged into the flywheel teeth immobilizes it for
tightening
.. It is said that so does a punch through one of the flywheel holes
.. Consider the wiring harness layout while lifting the transmission back
.. Be in 5th gear when aligning splines (allows output & input shaft to
turn)
.. Input shaft alignment stage 1 is getting splines to go into the clutch
disc.
(Time 142 seconds on [url="https://youtu.be/9UmrCl2nLKM?t=142"]
shows the alignment problem.)
.. Input shaft alignment stage 2 is the last inch onto the input shaft
bearing
.. Jack fine tuning matters last inch (use bellhousing bolts as alignment
pins)
.. It is said to grease the top & inside of the clutch fork ends
.. Grease the adjoining
surfaces
of the "throwout bearing" (also sometimes called the "release bearing").
.. Grease the divot in the middle of the clutch fork
.. Just before you install the clutch slave cylinder (aka "release
cylinder"),
grease the divot at the end fork
.. Cover the clutch fork mushroom bolt with HD grease

As a learning process, when you have the trans out, select low gear,
turn the output shaft & discover why top gear is the choice when
reasembling.

DIY 5VZ
http://www.ttora.com/forum/2-early-t...lutch-job.html
http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/4Runne...enance/clutch/
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-ge...t-writeup.html
..
3RZFE:
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-ge...ck-advice.html

On 28 Jul 2018 16:08:57 GMT, Hank Rogers wrote:

You should record all this long saga to a dvd, and give it to your great
grandchildren.

What I really love to do, for posterity, is write tutorials.
I just posted the nascent tutorial to one of your other posts.
Take a look at it, and note two things:
a. I don't skip a single step (not a single bolt)
b. I have pictures of everything

What I'd *love* to do is rip apart an old car and write the "hanes" manual
where I'd do so much better than does Chilton or the FSM that it wouldn't
be funny.

Of course, my method works for a "specific" car, so that would be my angle.
A specific model, year, and engine and transmission.

Do you think there would be a market for such a car-specific (completely
unlike Hanes/Chilton/FSM) perfect no-step-missed DIY as I write?

On Sat, 28 Jul 2018 22:08:57 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

On 28 Jul 2018 10:18:34 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

On a rwd car or light truck anything over 3 hours means the mechanic
is slacking oir something went wrong.

Thanks for that information on the 3 hours as this is a RWD, and a 2WD
which has as much room as you can every have on a passenger vehicle.

So, I suspect, the job doesn't get any easier than the one I did, since
there is no 4WD to deal with and the amount of room is astronomical
compared to, oh, say, a typical sports sedan.

I didn't count the hours it took me, but if I count four hours each day of
actual work, that's 6x4=24 hours, which is, for me, acceptable because I
spent a lot of time learning, cleaning, experimenting, making tools,
modifying the jack, swearing, and cursing, and, drinking copious amounts of
lemonade kindly brought to me every few hours by the grandchildren (who
felt sorry for me but who didn't know I was in heaven as I finally, after
decades of being scared, did my first transmission).

The kid whose car it is came over today to pick it up, and she tested it on
the highway, and it worked fine she said (I only tested it locally).

It has 180K miles, where it's definitely only the second clutch as the
vehicle has been in the family since it was born. So a clutch on this
vehicle lasts about 90K miles, on average, since the last one was slipping
also when it was replaced (by a mechanic).

My ranger had 207000km on it when I had to replace the clutch release
cyl - which is inside the bell housing (part of the release bearing)
so we put a new clutch in at the same time. It was significantly less
than half worn out.

Total cost to me was something around $250 for tools and another $250 for
parts, so it's an approximately $500 gift to the kid who works as a
secretary so she doesn't have a lot of money.

I never could have had the confidence if I didn't know you would help, so
I'm extremely glad for your patience on my rookie questions. I didn't even
realize that the alignment tool did, for example, until *after* I had the
transmission in. And I didn't understand why people said to put it in high
gear since I didn't need to touch the gears at any point in time, so I only
figured that one out after I had trouble getting it back in.

Things like that slowed me down, where, if I had formal education in auto
mechanics, I would have known a LOT more before I did the job. As it is,
the job taxed my tools to the utmost limit, where I was so happy that I had
dozens of assorted half inch and three-eighths inch extensions and swivels
and sockets and wrenches.

In fact, I think this is the first time in my life that I *required*
half-inch tools, since up until now, the 3/8ths inch extensions didn't
twist more than the torque required. But I never had to use 30 inches of
extension before either - which is what is required for the top two bolts
on the transmission hump.

Note in the DIY: Removing the conning tower seems like it would have made a
HUGE improvement in easy of removal!

I did a Loadstar school bus clutch with the shop foreman (an idiot
dutchman) barking over my shoulder when I was about 19 in less than 4
hours - and that included pulling the trans, dropping the clutch,
installing the clutch (having the disk slip out of place and hastilly
re-installing it) totally re-assembling then finding I had, in haste,
installed the disk backwards - dissassembling it again. puttingthe
disk back in the right way, knocking the release bearing off the fork,
reinstalling it in haste, checking the clutch BEFORE reistalling the
floor this time, and having the pedal drop to the floor because I had
put the release bearing in backwards, dis-assembling, reinstalling the
release bearing, retesting (got it right this time) and buttoning it
back up.

Wow. 4 hours. Jesus. I didn't even have all the tools assembled, made and
modified in four hours!

I see you accidentally did what I did which is to knock the release bearing
(aka throwout bearing) off, where any tug on the fork caused the TOB to
fall off the splined transmission shaft until I rubber-banded it in place.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5303450clutch_fork.jpg

I didn't remove that rubber band until I put the slave cylinder back!
(NOTE: I recently rebuilt the clutch master cylinder and clutch slave
cylinder and replaced the two rubbery plastic bushings in the shift lever,
so, except for the actual transmission itself, the entire shifting system
is all new in the last year.)

I did buy too many jacks though - as now I have an ATV jack in addition to
my transmission jack to store for the rest of my life! (I've already
offered my neighbors the right to borrow them since "they" have ATVs, but I
don't.) http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9075127atv_trans_jack.jpg

Nasty 400 lb? transmission, and working INSIDE the bell housing as the
bell housing served as the rear mounting for the engine.

Yuck. You never forget those jobs!
(I envy you for all your experience!)

I was a few minutes over flat rate time - even with all the screw-ups
- and I gave the shop foreman a good piece of my mind when it was all
over.

It's commendable, with the reassembly you did, that you met flat rate.

"push me and all you'll do is slow mw down - or get run over in the
process"

Luckily, my wife and kids left me alone, which is all well and good as they
would have been standing over me like your foreman was, just slowing me
down even further.

Same fool who couldn't diagnose a headlight problem on a 510 Datsun -
all 4 sealed beams were burned out. He kept asking me questions while
I was working on another job. After his second or third question I
knew what was wrong - but he kept asking the wrong questions for 2
hours - while trying to tell me how to fix a dome light that would not
shut oiff on a brand new Ambassador (found a screw through the wiring
harness)

Wow. That's something you just have to trace to find since you wouldn't
expect a screw in a wiring harness normally. You work backward or forward,
usually backward, until the power or continuity is shot, and that tells you
where the problem is ... if ... if you can get to it. (A wiring harness can
be anywhere though.)

When I finished the Ambassador I said "you still working on that
datsun?"

He said "you so F'n smart - YOU fix it"

Hehhehheh...

I hollered to the parts department "2 5001s and 2 5006s please", then
proceded to replace the sealed beams , without checking ANYTHING
first.

Wow. You figured it out just on the problem set presented to you.

He was MAD that I hadn't told him what was wrong - bet the silly ass
had never asked me. He's managed to ask just about every other
question it was possible to come up with (something like you do on
accaision, Arlen) - but never asked me what I thought the problem was.

I do ask a lot of questions ... but ... on the good side ... you have to
admit that I think for myself (I don't think what everyone else thinks for
example, in that I think about octane, and I think about how to diagnose as
I never throw parts at a problem unless I'm backed up against the wall, and
I always look at the parts to figure out how they work and I often take
them apart for an autopsy to see how they failed.

I should note to you that I'm extremely well educated but not in this
stuff. I have multiple degrees, but in fields completely different than car
or home repair. So I'm very used to asking questions, and I'm extremely
used to what people "think" is the answer intuitively, often (and sometimes
almost always, at least in the case of quantum mechanics) is dead wrong.

So, for example, people "think" you can't balance tires at home ... but you
can. And they think you can't mount them at home - but you can. And they
think you can't measure alignment at home, but you can (I still need to
prove that though).

Another thing about me, Clare, that is extremely different than most
people, is that I CARE about being a good Usenet citizen, even as I value
my privacy. So I always *respond* to most people in any thread I author,
which some people consider trolling, which is ridiculous since I'm simply
being responsive.

I almost always prove what I say I'm doing with photos.
And I almost always write up a DIY to give back to the team.

I almost always summarize the results in the end, and I thank the people
for helping me (where, I often condemn those who don't like the few who
posted early on in this thread, such as Wade Garrett who has been stalking
me from the iOS threads) but in this case, I had too much on my hands to
even bother to tell those useless posters to shut up.

I'm DIFFERENT than almost everyone you've ever met.

How many, for example, write a detailed DIY every time they do a big job?

Other than my privacy fetish (which drives some of you nuts I think even
though I never hide who I am so anyone who claims to figure it out isn't
the genius they think they are simply because it's trivial to do), I'm one
of the best Usenet posters there is because I ask a question and prove
everything I say, and try out every reasonable suggestion (if possible) and
I respond to everyone in the same manner in which they responded to me.

I'm only on Usenet to ask questions and to learn from people who have the
answers. I'm not here for idle chitchat, so I disappear until I have
another question.

I love to learn from you, and I will eventually do the six jobs few do at
home but you've done most of them.
1. Refuel a vehicle (I do it every week where I have it down to a science)
2. Mount, balance, & repair tires (I'm well past the tool break-even point)
3. Major transmission work (a clutch counts since R&R is the hard part)
4. Major internal engine work (I've never ripped an engine apart yet)
5. Paint a car (a grandchild has a handmedown I'd love to paint for her)
6. Align caster, camber & toe (this will be my next project for sure)

I think each of those things above has a DIFFERENT reason people don't do
them, where you have to admit at the very least, even if you disagree with
me, that I think for myself, so I don't follow what most people assume (and
which in some cases I've found to be dead wrong).

For example, refueling a vehicle is trivial, safe, and easy, and I've been
doing that for a decade or more at home (where if I ever get some money,
I'll buy even better gas-station equipment, which is surprisingly
inexpensive but where the limiting factor isn't the equipment but that they
don't deliver less than 200 gallons at a time in general).

Also, despite what most people think, and yes, I know you have TONS of
experience mounting and dynamically balancing a tire and you wouldn't do it
at home, I can mount and balance a sedan tire in fifteen minutes (and you
know that I don't make **** up), where in general, I take longer (because
I'm not in a rush) but it's never longer than a half hour elapsed time
where once you taught me about the "drop center", all was golden from there
(after I had to modify both the tire bead breaker and the tire mounting
tool).

I think the reason people DON'T do these 6 things is... sort of...
1. Fueling --- they don't have the room (I have more than a dozen acres)
2. Mounting --- they "think" it has to be dynamically balanced
3. Transmission --- it's a *lot* of work (whew!) but mostly just bolts
4. Engine --- it's even *more* work (where nobody can afford the downtime)
5. Paint --- you need skills and experience more than the tools
6. Align --- they don't realize how easy toe & camber are to measure

I may be wrong on all of that, because I don't know how people really
think, but you have to admit at least that I think for myself.

Take, for example, the mounting. I already know that mounting is *easy* on
passenger cars, and that it's only a bit harder on truck (SUV) tires.
Anyone who says it's not easy, or that you'll damage the rims (my Bimmer
rims are as soft as most alloy wheels and they're just fine) is talking out
of their ass - because I know - like you know - because I've done it about
25 times now (the tools paid for themselves in about 20 changes).

Anyone who thinks you can't patch plug from the inside doesn't know what
they're talking about. And anyone who thinks you must dynamically balance
every tire doesn't know what they're talking about (IMHO).

I had only one wobble in all this time, and that was due to doing the rear
brake drum wrong (it was a rookie mistake - where I've had disc brakes on
all my high end cars since the 80s until now that I do other people's cars
to help them out. (I know you think that's a lawsuit waiting to happen, but
I do the same on their cars as I would mine where I *know* (as you do) how
many times mechanics skip steps.)

So, yes, I'm different.
I'm intelligent.
I can learn.
I care about my privacy.
I respond to almost everyone worth responding to.
I usually confront the cowardly troll bullies in the threads I author
I ask a question and work it until it's resolved
I post a resolution and almost always write a DIY
And then I disappear (until the next question).

The morons call that being a troll.
I call it being a good Usenet citizen who cares about privacy and doesn't
use the chitchat model (where in the chitchat model people post 99% to
other threads saying almost nothing of value and only 1% to their own
threads, where in the Q&A model, the opposite it true in every way).

Clean it up, paint it gold, and keep it as a trophy - - - -

I have tools from the 60s, and even some from the 40's, like this grease
gun, where the grease must be thirty years or forty years old inside!
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7261355grease_gun.jpg

QUESTION: That was my dad's grease gun. How old do you think it is?
(I don't know when he bought it as I inherited all his old tools.)

You could still buy that same gun 10 or 15 years ago --- so hard to
tell. I used one back in the sixties and it was far feom new -_-

And these impact tools date to the mid 80's as I recall:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6129026airgun_sucks.jpg

My old CP734 was used when I bought it in 1970 - the "hammer" impact
was common back then as well - and still available in virtually the
same design.

This Craftsman respirator I used when I was blowing out the bell housing
and flywheel dust dates to the 80s for sure when I first attempted
to paint a car (but ended up selling the car in the winter where if you've
never lived in a cold climate - you have no idea how much harder everything
is in the winter and when it rains a lot).
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7615636respirator.jpg

And without a cutting wheel and bench grinder, fabricating these two
invaluable threaded dowels would not have been as easy as they we
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9848347dowel_fab.jpg


I'd use my Myford lathe - but a hacksaw, vice, and file would do the
job in less than 20 minutes - - - -
My next two jobs that you'll hear from me a
a. I want to paint a car, and,
b. I want to align a suspension.

I think both of those two are doable, but I will do my research first and
then, when I'm in the job itself, I may ask you for help to get past the
stumbling blocks.

I don't expect a miracle with the paint job, but anything will look better
than the handmedown paint that the kid has on the car now so I can't make
it much worse.

As for the alignment, this vehicle only has camber and toe in the front
that can be changed by twisting a bolt, so that's easy if I buy (or make)
toe plates. The measuring is easy but changing the toe with the weight on
the vehicle is a pain because of the rolling back and forth so I'll likely
just buy toe plates first. Also alignment is a mental bitch because
everything is in the wrong units. You measure inches, for example, but it's
usually in degrees to centerline. WTF. That causes your brain to hurt as
you use trig to figure out the translation.

That's because real alignment equipmnt measures degrees - - -

At least camber is in degrees and you can measure degrees with today's
tools, so, the problem with camber is only getting a jig that works on
multiple vehicles since you have to offset the measuring tool parallel to
the wheel but away from the tire sidewall bulge (sure, there are ways to do
it with a plumb bob but I'd just go for the camber jig for ease of use).

Caster is usually too hard to measure directly, and for this car, it's not
settable anyway. You can calculate it, but what good is the calculation
when you can't set it.

It lets you know if something is bent - and if it is you'll be
chasing your tail for a LONG time trying to find out why the car won't
run straight hands off - - - -

In the rear, this vehicle only has camber and nothing else. So, when most
people think "alignment" they're thinking a $100K machine which is
optimized for a totally different use model than a guy checking his
alignment at home where time and the ability to measure everything isn't
the issue.
ANd how will you know if the rear axle/suspensionis bent?????
All you need is camber and toe for the most part, which means you need a
camber jig and toe plates and as accurate an electronic level as you an
afford.

Anyway, I'm DIFFERENT (which means we are different).
You don't enjoy changing tires, I do.
You think it's dangerous to not go to a mechanic, I think they skip steps.

I'm a (retired) mechanic - whatch what you say -----
You may think I'm a troll but I'm not and I am DOING stuff when I ask
things (I don't ask idly).

I should mention the only auto mechanics class I took was in high school in
the sixties, where I was a star pupil and the teacher's pet simply because
he never had anyone in his class so interested in the details. He once was
amazed that I rewound a motorcycle alternator and horn solenoid in the same
week, and that I kept asking questions about fluids, asking why the
viscosity didn't really matter but the API number did, or what really
needed distilled water (the battery) but not the coolant (in reality, once
you look at water chemistry where we lived). I took sulfuric acid from the
chem lab in high school (in those days, you didn't get expelled for
breaking the rules) and refilled my own battery - it lasted about a month
or two, as I recall).

I'm DIFFERENT than most people you've met - so I'm an acquired taste.

What I ask for, in this newsgroup, is the expertise of all the people here,
most of which outweighs mine because I'm educated in totally different
things.

HINT: Ask me about bacteria or electrical engineering and you'll get far
more than you bargained for.

On 28 Jul 2018 20:27:03 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

It lets you know if something is bent - and if it is you'll be
chasing your tail for a LONG time trying to find out why the car won't
run straight hands off - - - -

I completely understand.
The "assumption" is that it's like a doctor's physical, of sorts.

It's more preventative medicine than corrective in that if your car has
been in an accident, that's out of the scope of what I'm going to
implement.

The assumption is the car has not been in an accident and it has been fully
"aligned" at some point in the reasonable past where the history is known
to you.

Under those circumstances, checking the things you can adjust is what I'm
speaking about.

It's a philosophical thing, where if you have money to waste, go have a
blast getting an alignment every month. But if you want to be pragmatic,
then ensure the car is aligned properly, and then periodically check the
caster, camber and toe, oh, say, every month or three.

It's a probability thing.
Can the entropy be such that the entire frame will suddenly bend on you?
Yup. There's a one in a trillion trillion trillion chance that this will
happen. (this is how entropy works, by the way)

But we're talking normal probabilities here.
Not accidents.

It's a *big* distinction.

On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 03:01:59 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:

On 28 Jul 2018 16:08:57 GMT, Hank Rogers wrote:

You should record all this long saga to a dvd, and give it to your great
grandchildren.

What I really love to do, for posterity, is write tutorials.
I just posted the nascent tutorial to one of your other posts.
Take a look at it, and note two things:
a. I don't skip a single step (not a single bolt)
b. I have pictures of everything

What I'd *love* to do is rip apart an old car and write the "hanes" manual
where I'd do so much better than does Chilton or the FSM that it wouldn't
be funny.

Of course, my method works for a "specific" car, so that would be my angle.
A specific model, year, and engine and transmission.

Do you think there would be a market for such a car-specific (completely
unlike Hanes/Chilton/FSM) perfect no-step-missed DIY as I write?

Nah, no market for it. The manufacturer has shop manuals for sale.
I've had them for my last 4 cars. They can be costly, but I've managed to buy used ones on
Ebay. I think the most expensive was about 45 bucks, but my cars were 10 years old when I
bought them.
But they can lead you down the wrong road. For instance, the procedure to replace the
motor mounts on my '97 Lumina looked way too complicated and costly.
I found a simple procedure on Youtube, and did it that way.

On 07/28/2018 04:08 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
I didn't count the hours it took me, but if I count four hours each day of
actual work, that's 6x4=24 hours, which is, for me, acceptable because I
spent a lot of time learning, cleaning, experimenting, making tools,
modifying the jack, swearing, and cursing, and, drinking copious amounts of
lemonade kindly brought to me every few hours by the grandchildren (who
felt sorry for me but who didn't know I was in heaven as I finally, after
decades of being scared, did my first transmission).

You didn't even get the requisite trip back to the parts store to get
the right clutch and pressure plate. Ford was creative that year and you
were never sure what you were going to find. Buy something and
inevitably it was the wrong one.

I did manage to catch the carb rebuild kit before I got out the door at
the parts store. I glanced at the box and it said Rochester. U-turn and
a pointed question to the clerk "Are you sure about this, Sparky?" Even
Ford wasn't that eclectic.

On 07/28/2018 08:01 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
All I can say is I have higher degrees in both.

My point was I know nothing whatsoever about auto mechanics, so that's why
I very much appreciate your advice and help.


At least you know your limits. I had a friend who ultimately got a PhD
in EE who was a danger under a car. We were working on his Buick and had
dropped the pan on the transmission. We left the pan in place to catch
any little drips. He was taking the screws out that held the valve body
when I realized he'd removed the last one. Fortunately th body hung just
long enough for me to get out from under the car before the tsunami hit.

Come to think of it, he wasn't too good at practical electrical stuff
either. I'm sure he could do a circuit analysis of the momentary current
flow when you short out a fully charged 12 volt wet cell with a length
of 14 gauge wire. My informal analysis was it gets real hot and it
smells bad when the insulation catches on fire.

On 07/28/2018 11:21 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sat, 28 Jul 2018 08:32:40 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

On 27 Jul 2018 19:17:43 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

Then I'll take her for a test drive. Is there a bedding procedure for
clutches like there is for brakes?
not really - - -
Thanks yet again Clare,
You give me the confidence to move forward on these tough-for-me jobs!

The test went supremely.
The clutch grabbed well, and low on the pedal uplift cycle.
Previously it grabbed too softly and super high (last half inch).
Now it grabs in the first few inches and grabs well.
I even stalled it a couple of times during a K turn.
I warned the driver to slip the clutch when doing slow speed K turns.

Guaranteeing you'll get to do the job again??

No need to EVER "slip" a clutch.(unless you have a severely
under-powerd vehicle) - with the exception possibly of pulling away on
a STEEP hill. Just learn to co-ordinate the throttle and the clutch.



Yeah, it's not a motorcycle. Multi-disk wet clutches are built for that;
single disk dry clutches not so much.

On 07/28/2018 11:52 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
Not an automatic at all - the infamous "fluid drive" or "Hy-Drive"
transmissin.

Yeah but Chrysler was hoping nobody would notice. Not that the
Powerslide was any prize either. I don't even want to think obout some
of the new trannies with more speeds than an English bicycle.

On 07/28/2018 09:01 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
Do you think there would be a market for such a car-specific (completely
unlike Hanes/Chilton/FSM) perfect no-step-missed DIY as I write?

The problem is addressed on some forums. With digital cameras and the
ease of putting stuff on line quite a few people have done step by step
logs. Unfortunately they're model specific. The Toyota forum has saved
me a lot of pain. I've got the manual but I'm sure the replace the radio
page starts with 'remove dash trim'. Yeah, right. You start down at the
transmission hump with a plastic putty knife popping off little plastic
bits until you work your way up to the speedometer housing.

Bikes are getting just as bad. I had a driveway full of plastic pieces,
a gas tank, and other odd and ends before I could get to the regulator
to unplug the stator to replace it.

Some days I dream of finding a 1965 VW in good shape.

On 07/28/2018 11:04 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
Nah, no market for it. The manufacturer has shop manuals for sale.
I've had them for my last 4 cars. They can be costly, but I've managed to buy used ones on
Ebay. I think the most expensive was about 45 bucks, but my cars were 10 years old when I
bought them.
But they can lead you down the wrong road. For instance, the procedure to replace the
motor mounts on my '97 Lumina looked way too complicated and costly.
I found a simple procedure on Youtube, and did it that way.

Yup. I've got the shop manuals for everything but the pickup. Some parts
are good, some not so good. Then there are the five pages of specialized
tools that you absolutely need which somehow I've never needed.

On 29/7/18 4:46 pm, rbowman wrote:
On 07/28/2018 09:01 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
Do you think there would be a market for such a car-specific (completely
unlike Hanes/Chilton/FSM) perfect no-step-missed DIY as I write?

The problem is addressed on some forums. With digital cameras and the
ease of putting stuff on line quite a few people have done step by step
logs. Unfortunately they're model specific. The Toyota forum has saved
me a lot of pain. I've got the manual but I'm sure the replace the radio
page starts with 'remove dash trim'.* Yeah, right. You start down at the
transmission hump with a plastic putty knife popping off little plastic
bits until you work your way up to the speedometer housing.

Bikes are getting just as bad. I had a driveway full of plastic pieces,
a gas tank, and other odd and ends before I could get to the regulator
to unplug the stator to replace it.

Some days I dream of finding a 1965 VW in good shape.

I would consider that dream a nightmare.

--

Xeno

"The best way to make a fire with two sticks is to make sure one of them
is a match."
-- Will Rogers

On 28 Jul 2018 23:46:49 GMT, rbowman wrote:

Unfortunately they're model specific.

There is no perfect situation.

Either it's a Hanes or Chilton which covers too many models, or, it's the
FSM which covers your model, but the factory re-used the diagrams from
previous models so a good proportion are wrong.

The manual I'd write is EXACT since I would have done EVERY STEP, so it
would be model specific for sure.

It would only pay, I think, for cars that I can get a junker for cheap, to
tear apart, and it would have to be a "common" enough car to have a market.

The actual work would be easy, I think.
1. Buy a complete car (it doesn't have to run even, but better if it does)
2. Tear it apart, piece by piece, putting each piece back since my DIYS
cover reassembly where it's almost never the reverse of removal.
3. Sell the book.

I think it "could" have a market, simply because it would be unique, as
nobody does the detail that I do ()and I've had shop manuals since the dawn
of my driving days).

I don't have Mitchells though, or AllData, so I don't know how good (or
bad) they are. Clare might know more.

On 28 Jul 2018 23:50:18 GMT, rbowman wrote:

Yup. I've got the shop manuals for everything but the pickup. Some parts
are good, some not so good. Then there are the five pages of specialized
tools that you absolutely need which somehow I've never needed.


Hehheh ... that's a good point. The Bentleys are filled with that crap.

On 28 Jul 2018 22:04:46 GMT, Vic Smith wrote:

Nah, no market for it. The manufacturer has shop manuals for sale.
I've had them for my last 4 cars. They can be costly, but I've managed to buy used ones on
Ebay. I think the most expensive was about 45 bucks, but my cars were 10 years old when I
bought them.
But they can lead you down the wrong road. For instance, the procedure to replace the
motor mounts on my '97 Lumina looked way too complicated and costly.
I found a simple procedure on Youtube, and did it that way.

Agreed. I have the Toyota FSM and Hanes somewhere. They suck.
My Q45 came with an FSM in the trunk, if you can believe that.
I get them for my bikes. I have the Bentleys for my Bimmer.

They all suck.

Yet, they each suck for different reasons.
None ever are as good as my DIYs. Never. Not even close.

You know why they all suck so I won't belabor the issue.
Suffice to say they're better than nothing - but not much better.

On 28 Jul 2018 23:21:53 GMT, rbowman wrote:

Yeah, it's not a motorcycle. Multi-disk wet clutches are built for that;
single disk dry clutches not so much.

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing.
What I mean by slip the clutch is that you let up slowly, where you
moderate the clutch and throttle perfectly.

I've ridden bikes my whole life where it's natural to modulate the throttle
and clutch the same way but where it's more noticeable.

There's no way to shift without doing what I'm calling 'slipping' the
clutch, so, we are probably talking about different terms.

Certainly you don't just let go of the pedal all at once, nor do you leave
the throttle at idle and then suddenly give it the gas.

So I think we're just using different terms because you can't shift
smoothly (nor properly) without what I'm calling slipping the clutch.

On 28 Jul 2018 23:10:01 GMT, rbowman wrote:

You didn't even get the requisite trip back to the parts store to get
the right clutch and pressure plate. Ford was creative that year and you
were never sure what you were going to find. Buy something and
inevitably it was the wrong one.

Once, decades ago, I was doing the pitman arm, idler arm, and tie rod ends
for a Dodge Dart of the 70's vintage, where, it was winter so I had to ride
my motorcycle in the snow to get the parts, and, they gave me the wrong
tie-rod ends.

I had to go back, in the snow, cursing them, and they didn't give a ****.
They just handed me the right part and that was it for them. It's no skin
off their back. But it's a lot of effort on your part.

I learned to bring in the old parts, which is how I knew all the pilot
bearing tools would never work, because I brought the new pilot bearing
with me this week. I even brought the old flywheel to match with the new
one.

Short side note related to alignment... when I did the idler, pitman, and
tie rod ends, I marked everything, as you can tell I am wont to do. Then I
tried an alignment, but only did the toe (which was easy, of course).

Then I paid Sears to do the alignment, and when I got home, I looked and
not a bolt was touched. I took it back to Sears and they tested it and
found out the guy didn't even do it. He said his charts only went back 10
years and so he didn't have the numbers. And yet they charged me. I as
livid, but in those days, I didn't scream bloody further. Nowadays I'd have
told them to give it to me for free or I would go to the prosecutor (or at
least the home office).

Can you believe that they just didn't do it, and didn't give a ****?

Mechanics, for the most part, I'm sure, are honest, but don't even get me
started about the shysters at AAMCO and MIDAS. The point is that I learned
that you can't trust any of them, unless they're related to you. I'm sure
most are good - but plenty are bad (I have too much experience with MIDAS
where I provided evidence which, (I'm sure with other data) got them kicked
out of the TireRack recommended tire program, since I provided firm proof
of what they were doing).

Again, don't even get me started on AAMCO. We old men have too many stories
of how we were screwed when we were young and innocent.

I taught my kids that very many are crooks (AAMCO is the worst, IMHO).
Sigh.

On 28 Jul 2018 23:18:52 GMT, rbowman wrote:

At least you know your limits. I had a friend who ultimately got a PhD
in EE who was a danger under a car.

Dunning-Kruger plays a role, where, it's not about being dumb but about
self assessment of skills. In general, the less someone knows, the more
they think they know, and vice versa, the more someone knows, the more they
realize that they don't know a lot of things.

Quantum mechanics still drives me nuts because nothing in it is intuitive,
which is another point -- which is that anyone who thinks they're intuitive
- is wrong.

We were working on his Buick and had
dropped the pan on the transmission. We left the pan in place to catch
any little drips. He was taking the screws out that held the valve body
when I realized he'd removed the last one. Fortunately th body hung just
long enough for me to get out from under the car before the tsunami hit.

Yaeah. We've all done "dumb things". I once grabbed a rope tied around a
tree that I had placed there months ago, so that I could drop down a short
ten foot cliff.... guess what? I never tied it to the tree, and I forgot
that I didn't, and I only remembered on my way down.

Staring up, on my back, luckily mostly unhurt, I just said to myself...
"that was dumb".

How many times have we looked at electronics momentarily after forgetting
to turn it on ... thinking it's broken.

Come to think of it, he wasn't too good at practical electrical stuff
either.

There are LOTS of "electrical" stuff, but what they don't generally teach
us in school is "house wiring" nor "power distribution" except in the
broadest sense.

They really don't even cover ground all that well in circuits, so it's
funny that an op amp has 3 connections, but once a professor drew in the
other two, and half the class asked what the other two connections were.
The rest of us just laughed thinking "Jesus ... they can spout Maxwell's
Equation, but they don't know what ground is?)

I'm sure he could do a circuit analysis of the momentary current
flow when you short out a fully charged 12 volt wet cell with a length
of 14 gauge wire. My informal analysis was it gets real hot and it
smells bad when the insulation catches on fire.

That's another thing. We had labs, and in the labs we used caps, of course,
but they never teach you PRACTICAL stuff, like the difference between
tantalum and electrolytic, and pancake caps, and what happens if you stick
a 10VDC electrolytic water tower into the electrical socket (that's fun if
you haven't tried it).

None of that is covered. All caps are the same in EE classes. It's amazing
that this is what they teach - but that's how they teach it. It's all
theory. Of course, you have to calculate poles and zeroes and be able to
handle polar diagrams and do all the math for the systems class, but
nothing PRACTICAL is covered (except by accident in the labs).

On 28 Jul 2018 23:34:49 GMT, rbowman wrote:

Yeah but Chrysler was hoping nobody would notice. Not that the
Powerslide was any prize either. I don't even want to think obout some
of the new trannies with more speeds than an English bicycle.

Speaking of Chrysler, did you know they put one side of the lug nuts on
with reverse threads? (It was either my New Yorker, or my Dart, I don't
remember which).

Guess how many lug bolts I snapped in the late 60s, as a kid, before I even
thought that they could have done that sadistic trick.

On 29 Jul 2018 08:41:06 GMT, Arlen Holder wrote:

Guess how many lug bolts I snapped in the late 60s, as a kid, before I even
thought that they could have done that sadistic trick.

BTW, the good news is that the new lug bolts went in so easily I couldn't
believe my luck that this is the easiest repair ever.

Still, one side was reverse threaded (where you only notice the L and R
stamped on the end of the lug bolt if you know to look for it).

It had never occurred to me that they would put one side on with reverse
threads. And that's *after* taking a auto mechanic class in high school as
an elective.

On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 08:33:18 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:



Then I paid Sears to do the alignment, and when I got home, I looked and
not a bolt was touched. I took it back to Sears and they tested it and
found out the guy didn't even do it. He said his charts only went back 10
years and so he didn't have the numbers. And yet they charged me. I as
livid, but in those days, I didn't scream bloody further. Nowadays I'd have
told them to give it to me for free or I would go to the prosecutor (or at
least the home office).


Same thing happened to me at a Firestone shop. I bought a '66 F100 and it was pulling a
little to the left. I dropped it off for new front tires and an alignment. When I picked
it up from their parking lot, first thing I did was crawl under it. Same grunge on the tie
rod ends. Went back in and asked the desk guy why they didn't do the alignment.
He shouted to the mech and the mech shouted back. "We can't do twin I-beam."
I had him refund the charge. Pretty close to your experience.

Can you believe that they just didn't do it, and didn't give a ****?


Sure can.

snip

Again, don't even get me started on AAMCO. We old men have too many stories
of how we were screwed when we were young and innocent.


I heard the stories, so did some looking around when the trans went out on my '67 Skylark.
AAMCO wanted $700 - hell, I only paid $475 for the car.
Went to the used car dealer I bought it from and he told me what trans shop he used.
They rebuilt the trans for $125.

I taught my kids that very many are crooks (AAMCO is the worst, IMHO).
Sigh.

Just avoid the franchise operations. Still have to deal with finding a competent mechanic,
but when you do, you're set. Until they retire or die on you.

On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 08:43:18 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:

On 29 Jul 2018 08:41:06 GMT, Arlen Holder wrote:

Guess how many lug bolts I snapped in the late 60s, as a kid, before I even
thought that they could have done that sadistic trick.

BTW, the good news is that the new lug bolts went in so easily I couldn't
believe my luck that this is the easiest repair ever.

Still, one side was reverse threaded (where you only notice the L and R
stamped on the end of the lug bolt if you know to look for it).

It had never occurred to me that they would put one side on with reverse
threads. And that's *after* taking a auto mechanic class in high school as
an elective.

Dealt with a few when I was a kid. My ma had a '55 Plymouth. Belvedere.
I don't recall any LHT on my '74 Dart. Swinger. Could be wrong.
I thought everybody was warned about that.

Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 08:33:18 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:

Then I paid Sears to do the alignment, and when I got home, I looked and
not a bolt was touched. I took it back to Sears and they tested it and
found out the guy didn't even do it. He said his charts only went back 10
years and so he didn't have the numbers. And yet they charged me. I as
livid, but in those days, I didn't scream bloody further. Nowadays I'd have
told them to give it to me for free or I would go to the prosecutor (or at
least the home office).

Same thing happened to me at a Firestone shop. I bought a '66 F100 and it was pulling a
little to the left. I dropped it off for new front tires and an alignment. When I picked
it up from their parking lot, first thing I did was crawl under it. Same grunge on the tie
rod ends. Went back in and asked the desk guy why they didn't do the alignment.
He shouted to the mech and the mech shouted back. "We can't do twin I-beam."
I had him refund the charge. Pretty close to your experience.

And this, in short, is why you go to an alignment shop with an alignment expert
instead of to the tire store.

You are lucky that they didn't do the alignment, because the tire store has
some high school kid who has been given basic directions to put the car up
on the machine and follow the directions the machine gives him. He really
doesn't know anything about the suspension geometry, but relies entirely on
the machine to do the job. He doesn't check anything for wear, he doesn't
check anything for damage or being bent, he just follows the machine.

If nothing is damaged, loose, bent, or worn, you drive away with the alignment
better than it was when you drove in. If that's not the case (and it likely
isn't, otherwise you wouldn't be getting an alignment anyway), then you drive
away with the alignment made worse.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 23 Jul 2018 16:42:53 GMT, trader_4 wrote:

I didn't see any interest in my suggestion

At this point, I don't remember your "suggestion" ... but ... bearing in
mind very important facts:
1. I did the job so it's related to this newsgroup, and,
2. I have been posting to Usenet for decades, where
3. Cowardly bullies like Tekkie are a detriment to this newsgroup.

The facts are I clearly removed, and replaced that clutch, and I just as
clearly wrote the extremely detailed DIY (and am still working on improving
that DIY so as to give back to the team - which is because I'm purposefully
helpful and a great Usenet citizen), snapping almost a thousand pictures,
of each removal and replacement step and describing for the next person,
how to do what I did (with the purposefully helpful & timely advice from
many others here).

So it's eminently clear that I responded to everyone who had purposefully
helpful intent and am only now getting to responding to the worthless
trolls who wouldn't know a clutch plate from a dinner plate.

Given that
a. I actually did the job, and,
b. I am very smart and can handle complex details, and,
c. I didn't have time to shut the bullying cowardly trolls up,

*I'm only now getting to your worthless posts*.

If you feel that I didn't have an "interest" in your suggestion, then you
can rest assured, since I'm rather intelligent and logical, that I most
likely thought your suggestions were worthless and not even worth at
response at the time that I needed help.

If you feel otherwise, then you're welcome to make a technically on-topic
and technically valid post. I challenge you to do so, in fact as I do
believe that even you have some value to add to the technical topic.

On 29 Jul 2018 17:22:14 GMT, Arlen Holder wrote:

3. Cowardly bullies like Tekkie are a detriment to this newsgroup.

OOops. Correction (since I care about my credibility)...

Cowardly bullies like Tekkie *and* Trader4, are a detriment to this
newsgroup.

Note: Wade Garrett is just an annoyance, like an annoying gnat.

On 23 Jul 2018 11:40:10 GMT, Tekkie® wrote:

I believe this guy is the valve stem thread, harbor freight bead breaker,
tire spec, brake lining spec Ultrec nym shifter. If he would just post under
one name then I and more people would help him. Since I posted this the
insults and diversions will now start.

Notice that the guys who are the dumbest on this newsgroup, always find
something that is completely unrelated to the clutch job, which is teh
topic here, to "complain" about.

*This post by Tekkie proves, yet again, that he's an utter moron.*

The point here is that Tekkie has *never* once in his entire life added
on-topic technical value to *any* thread. He's _that_ stupid, that he can't
possibly add on-topic technical value.

Why do I say this now, after the clutch job is done?

Because Tekkie is a cowardly bully troll.
a. He is a coward.
b. He is a bully.
c. And, worse, Tekkie proves how utterly _stupid_ he is in every post.

I confront cowardly bullies - in threads I care about - because I want
those threads to come to a technical resolution.

Tekkie can be a cowardly bully on any thread that he wants to bully people
on, and I let him be (yes, I read his idiotic posts all the time).

But that doesn't change the fact that Tekkie is a worthless cowardly bully.
That fact is proven every time he posts - as he did here.

Meanwhile:
a. I post a valid question, and I respond to all valid inquiries.
b. Usually I have time to confront cowardly bullies - but not this time
c. Yes, I care about my privacy - which is the only thing Tekkie sees.

Tekkie never once saw a 'clutch job' in this thread.
Not once.

He's _that_ stupid (and it irks me that people are really as stupid as
Tekkie proves he is every single time he posts).

Two related things irk me:
1. Cowardly bullies like Tekkie who have zero helpful intent, and,
2. Outfits like Sears/Midas/AAMCO who screw their trusting customers

On 29 Jul 2018 08:53:43 GMT, Scott Dorsey wrote:

And this, in short, is why you go to an alignment shop with an alignment expert
instead of to the tire store.

This is good advice.
I think Vic Smith said it well when he said not to go to the "franchises".

The problem, for a kid, like I was, is that the franchises are what are
advertised the most. For example, I can still rehears the AAMCO advertising
jingle even today, almost 40 years later.

I have to admit the only three franchises (is Sears a franchise? Probably
not.) that screwed me a
a. AAMCO (they had to be liars because it was motor mounts)
b. MIDAS (they literally did everything wrong on mounting tires)
c. Sears (they charged me for an alignment they never did)

You can't really blame me for *trusting* them, since I'm sure millions of
people trust them (I mean, it's not like I went to a local crack dealer to
get my car fixed, nor that I went to a tire shop to get a transmission
replaced).

But your advice is still valid not to trust them.

You are lucky that they didn't do the alignment, because the tire store has
some high school kid who has been given basic directions to put the car up
on the machine and follow the directions the machine gives him.

I agree with you that they don't even ask how you drive when you ask for an
alignment, where, for example, I have to tell them to decrease the rear
camber from negative 2 degrees to as close to zero as they can get - which
is based on my driving style (I drive like an old man) and my care about
tire wear (I rotate bimmer tires even though BMW doesn't recommend it).

He really
doesn't know anything about the suspension geometry, but relies entirely on
the machine to do the job. He doesn't check anything for wear, he doesn't
check anything for damage or being bent, he just follows the machine.

I agree with you also, in that *most* alignment shops, even today, that I
called, do NOT add the 500 pounds of weight that BMW says is needed to set
the ride height to the "normal" position (lots of detail I'm omitting).

The only shop that I called, out of something like a dozen, that does use
the weight, is the dealer themselves, and they do use the weight every time
(it's not exactly 500 pounds but it's close enough because you put about
that much in the vehicle until you get the ride height to the "normal"
number of inches).

Only then are the numbers that BMW provides accurate.

NOTE: I don't know if Hunter *compensates* for lack of ride height or not.
(Clare might know more.)

If nothing is damaged, loose, bent, or worn, you drive away with the alignment
better than it was when you drove in. If that's not the case (and it likely
isn't, otherwise you wouldn't be getting an alignment anyway), then you drive
away with the alignment made worse.

I agree that alignment has two different situations:
a. When you suspect something is 'bent, and,
b. Just checking periodically (to ensure nothing got loose).

Next on my list is alignment at home, where I'm only talking the very few
things you can change by simple adjustment, which, for example, on the
bimmer, is front toe and that's it for the front (sans adding aftermarket
camber plates).

For the rear, it's toe and camber and that's it.

IMHO, after having thought of this problem for years, the real issue is the
mental effort of figuring out how to convert BMW degrees of toe to
centerline to something that you can measure in inches.

Camber, on the other hand, is easy to measure, but you need to get your
level away from the tire bulge, which you *can* measure in degrees, but
only if you can reliably keep the level away from the sidewall bulge and
still perfectly parallel to the wheel.

If you measure by inches, e.g., if you use a plumb bob, then you're stuck
doing trig again.

So of the six jobs almost nobody does at home, the alignment check is the
one that makes the brain hurt the most - which is why - I think - nobody
does it at home. (I could be wrong - but that's what I think unless someone
can give me their reason - which can't be that you need $100K of equipment
so please do not say that because it's just dead wrong and yet I've heard
it a thousand times).

Why don't most people periodically *check* their alignment at home?
(I think the answer is that it makes the brain hurt to figure out how.)

On 29 Jul 2018 08:01:58 GMT, Vic Smith wrote:

Same thing happened to me at a Firestone shop. I bought a '66 F100 and it was pulling a
little to the left. I dropped it off for new front tires and an alignment. When I picked
it up from their parking lot, first thing I did was crawl under it. Same grunge on the tie
rod ends. Went back in and asked the desk guy why they didn't do the alignment.
He shouted to the mech and the mech shouted back. "We can't do twin I-beam."
I had him refund the charge. Pretty close to your experience.

THANK YOU!
The reason I say thank you is that I don't know if my experience is unique.
All I know is that it happened, and, worse, they didn't give a ****.
They charged me. They did nothing. When I brought it back, they didn't
blink an eye when I alleged that no bolt was twisted.

When they put it on the rack, the *only* thing even close was the toe
(which, remember, I had already done). I remember it was a 70 Dodge Dart,
and they said their charts (this is before the Internet, of course) only
went back ten years, so I think it was 1981 as I remember it being close to
those ten years.

What irks me is that they might be doing this for *thousands* of other
customers, which is really one of the major reasons I do my own work (I
haven't been to a mechanic in a decade).

Hence I THANK YOU for letting me know that I'm not the only one who has ben
screwed by alignment shops saying they do the work, and yet, not doing it.

Just as I brought my heavy flywheel with me to pick up the new flywheel
last week, I try to ameliorate this by WATCHING what they do (luckily we
always have cameras nowadays) where watching MIDAS caught them in so many
provable errors when they simply changed my tires that TireRack shipped
them, that they ended up mounting the four tires for the price of the valve
stem (it took them two hours for four tires because I kept stopping them to
tell them that they were doing it wrong - and they did _that_ many things
wrong - where I had a full-fledged SLR on my neck strap proving every
step).

TireRack called me back (they have a guy for this actually, who runs the
recommended installer program) and said they kicked that MIDAS out of the
recommended installer program - and even after that - MIDAS *still* said
they had a "tirerack" price (which TireRack doesn't allow them to
advertise) so I got them in trouble for that too.

I don't know if they were just screwing me, or if they screw almost anyone,
so that's why I THANK YOU for letting me know I'm not the only one, at
least with alignment, who got screwed by a shop that charged me and didn't
touch anything.

NOTE: I have a mom-and-pop local alignment shop I go to now, where I've
posted pictures in the past of what he does, and he's *GREAT*. He even lets
me bring my own 500 pounds of weight and doesn't complain that I follow him
around like a puppy, watching every bolt (he shows me what to twist) and he
sets the Bimmer's rear camber as close to 0 degrees at my request, even
though the spec is negative 2 degrees (which eats tires like you can't
believe and where I don't need to corner like a banshee).

My rule now is to *WATCH* them ... but I do thank you for confirming that
I'm not the only one who paid for an alignment and didn't get anything in
return.


Can you believe that they just didn't do it, and didn't give a ****?


Sure can.

That sucks.
Guys like you and me they won't fool too often (e.g., I'll never go to
Sears ever again) - but what about a young kid who goes there today. They
get ripped off because of these people you can't trust.


I heard the stories, so did some looking around when the trans went out on my '67 Skylark.
AAMCO wanted $700 - hell, I only paid $475 for the car.
Went to the used car dealer I bought it from and he told me what trans shop he used.
They rebuilt the trans for $125.

Thanks for confirming AAMCO is a ripoff, although, we have to remember, I
think they're like Burger Kings where they are owned by a person who isn't
really part of AAMCO per se.

In my case, it was the same Dodge Dart whose motor mounts (both of them)
had sheared such that the engine was tilted and the belts were making
noises.

I brought it *later* to K-Mart for something like a $10 checkup, where
K-Mart told me *exactly* what the problem was (which was easy to repair as
motor mounts were as simple as jacking the engine, removing the mount by a
single nut each, and then putting the new ones in).

So it was clearly easily diagnosed as broken motor mounts.

When I went to AAMCO, they put it on a lift without even looking at the
engine, and then showed me the gunk in the transmission pan, where they
literally swiped their finger in it and showed me the dirty finger
"proving" that the transmission was the culprit.

The charge, as I recall, for a new transmission (or rebuilt?) was $400
which was astronomical to me (I literally didn't have that much money in
the bank at that time), where they were literally livid that I told them to
button it up (it was the "free diagnosis").

They even put in the old mixed fluid from a billion cars!
Now I know how sadistic that act alone is, but then I didn't know any
better (all I did was notice it).

Can you believe that? They had already mixed my fluid in with everyone
else's (including, I'm sure, manual transmissions) and then they
sadistically replaced my fluid with that mess.

Again, I didn't realize at that time how horrid an act that is.

But back to the point, the problem was that the motor mounts were bad, and
yet they told me I needed a new (or rebuilt) transmission!

Being older and wiser, I can only conclude one of two possible things:
1. They are incredible inept, or,
2. They are thieves.

Pick one.


I taught my kids that very many are crooks (AAMCO is the worst, IMHO).
Sigh.

Just avoid the franchise operations. Still have to deal with finding a competent mechanic,
but when you do, you're set. Until they retire or die on you.

I do agree with you on finding someone you can trust. I was in the YMCA
Indian Princess years ago with my kids, where one of the Dads was a
mechanic, where I trusted him (and, since I still have those cars, two
decades later, I know that he replaced every bolt, he torqued them down,
etc and he used OEM parts like he said he did).

He retired, just as you predicted!
Sigh.

Luckily the mom-and-pop alignment shop still exists. The mother is
literally the lady in the front office, and this kid, who is about 30 or
so, is a nice guy who literally lets me under the car with him as he points
out the bolts I need to adjust to set the alignment.

I'm sure Clare would say that most mechanics are honest, and I'm sure most
are, but I didn't even finish telling you my stories of where they're not.

On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 17:24:01 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:

On 29 Jul 2018 08:01:58 GMT, Vic Smith wrote:



Just avoid the franchise operations. Still have to deal with finding a competent mechanic,
but when you do, you're set. Until they retire or die on you.


I'll amend that about franchise shops. Tire shops like Firestone, Just Tires, etc. have
good alignment equipment, or at least should have. My son worked for Just Tires for a few
years, and now works at an independent shop doing mainly heavy truck suspensions.
He talks to old mates at Just Tires, and sends me there when I need alignment work, which
is rare. So far they've done a fine job as far as I can tell.
I've had 4-5 exhaust systems replaced (family cars) at a local Meineke at fair prices.
But they screwed up a brake job - left off the e-brake lever on the rear drum.
It all depends on management and personnel. Just be aware of that, and that a competent
mech can point you to competent shops. This has always worked for me, when I can't do it
myself.