Home Repair (alt.home.repair) For all homeowners and DIYers with many experienced tradesmen. Solve your toughest home fix-it problems.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #41   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 193
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 24 Jul 2018 15:55:12 GMT, rbowman wrote:

That's not as bad as suddenly realizing the transmission is hanging from
the speedometer cable... I doubt they exist anymore so make that some
sort of sensor wiring.


There is a speedometer gear which has to be pulled out of the transmission:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3362017speedo04.jpg

If I had known it was so easy to disable an odometer, the vehicle would
have only 20K miles on it instead of 180K! (jk)

I took great pains to ensure the electrical harness was clear at all times.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2294161clutch05.jpg

I even removed the upstream lamba probe so as to to prevent damage:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6912446sensorwiring01.jpg

That upstream oxygen sensor crossed the transmission but I couldn't unclip
it so I just unbolted it. I will replace it as it's the original O2 sensor.

I probably should have bought a downstream o2 sensor also to replace but I
didn't think of it when I was ordering the clutch parts.
  #42   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 193
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 24 Jul 2018 19:17:56 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

The OEM bolts have thradlocker on them. Clean the threads - both on
the bolt and in the holes - use the primer made for the threadlocker,
and use the medium strength locker (Blue)


Thanks for that advice Clare as I don't generally deal with threadlockers.

I saw your post only after I returned from the parts trip, where I had
already picked up Loctite Red 271 and Permatex Red, and Loctite Blue 242
and Permatex Blue based on what the two different parts stores told me to
get when I asked what they put on flywheels and bellhousing bolts.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4130173fluids01.jpg

Somewhere I read we have to FIPG the rear main oil seal, but now I think
they mean to put FIPG in place of that paper gasket under the cover that
holds the rear main oil seal.
https://www.yotashop.com/toyota-2-7l-2-4l-crankshaft-rear-main-seal-set-rm957/

I had already picked up this high temperature Permatex "gasket maker",
where the purpose one is called Permatex Ultra Synthetic Gasket Maker"
which "resists up to 500d F intermittent" and the Red RTF High Temp Gasket
Maker says "resists up to 650d F intermittent".
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9599745fluids02.jpg

I didn't know to pick up the primer. I'll have to go back tomorrow to get
that primer (do you think carb cleaner or acetone will work?)

I don't mind doing things the right way - but I just have to know what the
right way is, where I didn't know about the primer until this moment.
  #43   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 193
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 24 Jul 2018 19:14:59 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

Drive a stout sheet metal screw into the seal and pop it out wit
sonething like a claw hammer. Then grease the (new) seal, inside and
out, and carefully drive it in.


Aha! Thanks for explaining how to remove the old seal, as I didn't know if
I should unbolt that plate or not to get it out. If it's that easy, I
really need to do it even though the original isn't leaking.

This is a picture where the rear oil seal comes with the paper gasket:
https://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server4100/9cc30/products/9104/images/10439/RM957__95167.1426114211.1280.1280.jpg

It looks like they also call it a timing-cover seal (which is strange):
https://parts.olathetoyota.com/oem-parts/toyota-timing-cover-seal-9031188003

Even though it's in the back of the engine:
https://www.toyotapartsdeal.com/oem/toyota~seal~engine~rear~oil~90311-88003.html

It does have a "retainer" which I guess is the aluminum housing around it:
https://parts.olathetoyota.com/oem-parts/toyota-rear-main-seal-retainer-1138175012

The Toyota dealer parts people screwed up again, in that they "said" they
had the rear main oil seal in stock, but they were talking about the wrong
seal. Apparently they have something called an "engine seal" and they call
this one the "transmission seal" (where I had explained clearly over the
phone that it's directly behind the flywheel). Sigh. (At the three
different brand dealers I go to, the parts guys always seem to be clueless
about parts, where I'm amazed at how long it takes them to look stuff up,
for example, where I can find things quicker than they can).

They printed this out for me which is the part they should have ordered.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1320830oilseal01.jpg

Their P/N (11381A) doesn't fit with what a search finds (90311-88003).

I'd really like to replace that seal even though it isn't leaking, because
if it does ever leak, you have to remove the transmission to get to it.

I'll try another dealer tomorrow (there are two within 30 miles of me).

and DEFINITELY replace that pilot bearing!!!!!!!


Yup. I'm taking all your advice. The kit comes with a pilot bearing:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7378316clutch01.jpg

You can rent a pilot bearing puller slide hammer from
most parts suppliers with a tool rental program. If it doesn't sound
like a cement mixer now, it soon will - - - -


The amazing thing is that I went to two parts stores today, both of which
rent out the pilot bearing puller and slide hammer (separately), where the
amazing thing is that the bearing pullers are all TOO BIG to fit inside
this pilot bearing!

The people at both stores tried to fit it inside the new bearing, which,
luckily, I had in my pocket, where they're too fat even though you can
slide the teeth forward one at a time.

It's pretty amazing since this looks like a pretty standard engine and so
it has a pretty standard pilot bearing, right? The pilot bearing is a "6201
RS" which is a very common bearing for lots of shafts.

The tool is two pieces, as you noted.
1. A slide hammer that screws into the back end of the tool
2. The tool itself, which has both sliding and expanding jaws

Yet, both bearing pullers I tested at those two parts stores were too big.

I could rent one, and then grind it down to fit, but that would be abuse.
If I could have found a tool that fit, I would have bought it already.

I'm not worried though, as the packed-grease method Terry Coombs suggested
might work anyway, and where I might have to do that if I can't find a
small enough pilot-bearing removal tool.
  #44   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 193
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 24 Jul 2018 19:08:11 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

No experience with aftermarket flywheels or O-Reillys. Sachs or LUK
should bothbe good. Both are OEM manufacturers for many european
makers.

The flywheel looks bad enough that for the difference between $60 to
machine and $95 for a new LUK there shouldn't be any question.


Thanks Clare,

You have, by far, the most experience here and I have, by far, the least,
hence I appreciate the advice.

I was worried about getting the flywheel off, but it came out easily once I
put a 1/2-inch-socket breaker bar to the ten 14-mm 12-point bolts:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1179779flywheel07.jpg

I had to wait all day for the new flywheel to arrive, which it did late in
the day. So I'm sorry for the lousy before-and-after picture below but it
was taken at night when I got home.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2793357flywheel05.jpg

Looking at the flywheel, I can't visually see or feel anything that is any
lesser quality, where the box for the new flywheel has OE all over it, and
inside stickers saying it meets OEM specs.

I was surprised the new flywheel is almost the same thickness as the
original, the difference being almost imperceptible ... which I can measure
tomorrow, but you can barely feel it.

I had expected the new flywheel to be a lot thicker than the old one since
I know the original has about 180K miles on it and it was supposedly turned
once at somewhere around 80K miles sometime around 2005.

Going to the dealer for the rear oil seal was an experience in futility.


  #45   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,157
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 12:47:39 AM UTC-5, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 24 Jul 2018 19:14:59 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

Drive a stout sheet metal screw into the seal and pop it out wit
sonething like a claw hammer. Then grease the (new) seal, inside and
out, and carefully drive it in.


Aha! Thanks for explaining how to remove the old seal, as I didn't know if
I should unbolt that plate or not to get it out. If it's that easy, I
really need to do it even though the original isn't leaking.

This is a picture where the rear oil seal comes with the paper gasket:
https://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server4100/9cc30/products/9104/images/10439/RM957__95167.1426114211.1280.1280.jpg

It looks like they also call it a timing-cover seal (which is strange):
https://parts.olathetoyota.com/oem-parts/toyota-timing-cover-seal-9031188003

Even though it's in the back of the engine:
https://www.toyotapartsdeal.com/oem/toyota~seal~engine~rear~oil~90311-88003.html

It does have a "retainer" which I guess is the aluminum housing around it:
https://parts.olathetoyota.com/oem-parts/toyota-rear-main-seal-retainer-1138175012

The Toyota dealer parts people screwed up again, in that they "said" they
had the rear main oil seal in stock, but they were talking about the wrong
seal. Apparently they have something called an "engine seal" and they call
this one the "transmission seal" (where I had explained clearly over the
phone that it's directly behind the flywheel). Sigh. (At the three
different brand dealers I go to, the parts guys always seem to be clueless
about parts, where I'm amazed at how long it takes them to look stuff up,
for example, where I can find things quicker than they can).

They printed this out for me which is the part they should have ordered.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1320830oilseal01.jpg

Their P/N (11381A) doesn't fit with what a search finds (90311-88003).

I'd really like to replace that seal even though it isn't leaking, because
if it does ever leak, you have to remove the transmission to get to it.

I'll try another dealer tomorrow (there are two within 30 miles of me).

and DEFINITELY replace that pilot bearing!!!!!!!


Yup. I'm taking all your advice. The kit comes with a pilot bearing:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7378316clutch01.jpg

You can rent a pilot bearing puller slide hammer from
most parts suppliers with a tool rental program. If it doesn't sound
like a cement mixer now, it soon will - - - -


The amazing thing is that I went to two parts stores today, both of which
rent out the pilot bearing puller and slide hammer (separately), where the
amazing thing is that the bearing pullers are all TOO BIG to fit inside
this pilot bearing!

The people at both stores tried to fit it inside the new bearing, which,
luckily, I had in my pocket, where they're too fat even though you can
slide the teeth forward one at a time.

It's pretty amazing since this looks like a pretty standard engine and so
it has a pretty standard pilot bearing, right? The pilot bearing is a "6201
RS" which is a very common bearing for lots of shafts.

The tool is two pieces, as you noted.
1. A slide hammer that screws into the back end of the tool
2. The tool itself, which has both sliding and expanding jaws

Yet, both bearing pullers I tested at those two parts stores were too big.

I could rent one, and then grind it down to fit, but that would be abuse.
If I could have found a tool that fit, I would have bought it already.

I'm not worried though, as the packed-grease method Terry Coombs suggested
might work anyway, and where I might have to do that if I can't find a
small enough pilot-bearing removal tool.


You have quite a project there. I used to spend all night fixing my old car so I could make it to work the next day. I miss being able to do a little old transmission swap. Good luck with your repairs and may the clutch be with you. Yoda mechanic. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Clutch Monster


  #46   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,564
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 05:47:36 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

On 24 Jul 2018 19:14:59 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

Drive a stout sheet metal screw into the seal and pop it out wit
sonething like a claw hammer. Then grease the (new) seal, inside and
out, and carefully drive it in.


Aha! Thanks for explaining how to remove the old seal, as I didn't know if
I should unbolt that plate or not to get it out. If it's that easy, I
really need to do it even though the original isn't leaking.

This is a picture where the rear oil seal comes with the paper gasket:
https://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server4100/9cc30/products/9104/images/10439/RM957__95167.1426114211.1280.1280.jpg

It looks like they also call it a timing-cover seal (which is strange):
https://parts.olathetoyota.com/oem-parts/toyota-timing-cover-seal-9031188003


The timing cover seal is the FRONT seal

Even though it's in the back of the engine:
https://www.toyotapartsdeal.com/oem/toyota~seal~engine~rear~oil~90311-88003.html

It does have a "retainer" which I guess is the aluminum housing around it:
https://parts.olathetoyota.com/oem-parts/toyota-rear-main-seal-retainer-1138175012

The Toyota dealer parts people screwed up again, in that they "said" they
had the rear main oil seal in stock, but they were talking about the wrong
seal. Apparently they have something called an "engine seal" and they call
this one the "transmission seal" (where I had explained clearly over the
phone that it's directly behind the flywheel). Sigh. (At the three
different brand dealers I go to, the parts guys always seem to be clueless
about parts, where I'm amazed at how long it takes them to look stuff up,
for example, where I can find things quicker than they can).


The first 2 links show the correct part
They printed this out for me which is the part they should have ordered.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1320830oilseal01.jpg

Their P/N (11381A) doesn't fit with what a search finds (90311-88003).

The 88003should bethe right part

I'd really like to replace that seal even though it isn't leaking, because
if it does ever leak, you have to remove the transmission to get to it.

I'll try another dealer tomorrow (there are two within 30 miles of me).

and DEFINITELY replace that pilot bearing!!!!!!!


Yup. I'm taking all your advice. The kit comes with a pilot bearing:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7378316clutch01.jpg

You can rent a pilot bearing puller slide hammer from
most parts suppliers with a tool rental program. If it doesn't sound
like a cement mixer now, it soon will - - - -


The amazing thing is that I went to two parts stores today, both of which
rent out the pilot bearing puller and slide hammer (separately), where the
amazing thing is that the bearing pullers are all TOO BIG to fit inside
this pilot bearing!

The people at both stores tried to fit it inside the new bearing, which,
luckily, I had in my pocket, where they're too fat even though you can
slide the teeth forward one at a time.

It's pretty amazing since this looks like a pretty standard engine and so
it has a pretty standard pilot bearing, right? The pilot bearing is a "6201
RS" which is a very common bearing for lots of shafts.

The tool is two pieces, as you noted.
1. A slide hammer that screws into the back end of the tool
2. The tool itself, which has both sliding and expanding jaws

Yet, both bearing pullers I tested at those two parts stores were too big.

I could rent one, and then grind it down to fit, but that would be abuse.
If I could have found a tool that fit, I would have bought it already.


I've done it with a long 6mm bolt and nut, Put the nut on the bolt.
Stick the end withthe nut through the hole in the bearing. Inset a
small screwdriver to keep the nut from turning and thread the bolt in
untill the nut pushes the bearing out.

I'm not worried though, as the packed-grease method Terry Coombs suggested
might work anyway, and where I might have to do that if I can't find a
small enough pilot-bearing removal tool.

Works a lot better on "bushings" than "bearings" but could work. Use
THICK grease!!
  #47   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,564
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 05:47:35 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

On 24 Jul 2018 19:17:56 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

The OEM bolts have thradlocker on them. Clean the threads - both on
the bolt and in the holes - use the primer made for the threadlocker,
and use the medium strength locker (Blue)


Thanks for that advice Clare as I don't generally deal with threadlockers.

I saw your post only after I returned from the parts trip, where I had
already picked up Loctite Red 271 and Permatex Red, and Loctite Blue 242
and Permatex Blue based on what the two different parts stores told me to
get when I asked what they put on flywheels and bellhousing bolts.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4130173fluids01.jpg

Somewhere I read we have to FIPG the rear main oil seal, but now I think
they mean to put FIPG in place of that paper gasket under the cover that
holds the rear main oil seal.
https://www.yotashop.com/toyota-2-7l-2-4l-crankshaft-rear-main-seal-set-rm957/

I had already picked up this high temperature Permatex "gasket maker",
where the purpose one is called Permatex Ultra Synthetic Gasket Maker"
which "resists up to 500d F intermittent" and the Red RTF High Temp Gasket
Maker says "resists up to 650d F intermittent".
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9599745fluids02.jpg

I didn't know to pick up the primer. I'll have to go back tomorrow to get
that primer (do you think carb cleaner or acetone will work?)

I don't mind doing things the right way - but I just have to know what the
right way is, where I didn't know about the primer until this moment.

For gasket maker I never use anything but "the right stuff" from
Permatex
  #48   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,074
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 07/24/2018 11:47 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
I didn't know to pick up the primer. I'll have to go back tomorrow to get
that primer (do you think carb cleaner or acetone will work?)


I've got a can a primer around here someplace but I seldom use it. YMMV.
It helps if the threads are very sloppy or it's cold and you want to
speed up the setting.
  #49   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

Arlen Holder wrote:
On 24 Jul 2018 19:14:59 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

Drive a stout sheet metal screw into the seal and pop it out wit
sonething like a claw hammer. Then grease the (new) seal, inside and
out, and carefully drive it in.


Aha! Thanks for explaining how to remove the old seal, as I didn't know if
I should unbolt that plate or not to get it out. If it's that easy, I
really need to do it even though the original isn't leaking.

This is a picture where the rear oil seal comes with the paper gasket:
https://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/server4100/9cc30/products/9104/images/10439/RM957__95167.1426114211.1280.1280.jpg

It looks like they also call it a timing-cover seal (which is strange):
https://parts.olathetoyota.com/oem-parts/toyota-timing-cover-seal-9031188003

Even though it's in the back of the engine:
https://www.toyotapartsdeal.com/oem/toyota~seal~engine~rear~oil~90311-88003.html

It does have a "retainer" which I guess is the aluminum housing around it:
https://parts.olathetoyota.com/oem-parts/toyota-rear-main-seal-retainer-1138175012

The Toyota dealer parts people screwed up again, in that they "said" they
had the rear main oil seal in stock, but they were talking about the wrong
seal. Apparently they have something called an "engine seal" and they call
this one the "transmission seal" (where I had explained clearly over the
phone that it's directly behind the flywheel). Sigh. (At the three
different brand dealers I go to, the parts guys always seem to be clueless
about parts, where I'm amazed at how long it takes them to look stuff up,
for example, where I can find things quicker than they can).

They printed this out for me which is the part they should have ordered.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1320830oilseal01.jpg

Their P/N (11381A) doesn't fit with what a search finds (90311-88003).

I'd really like to replace that seal even though it isn't leaking, because
if it does ever leak, you have to remove the transmission to get to it.

I'll try another dealer tomorrow (there are two within 30 miles of me).

and DEFINITELY replace that pilot bearing!!!!!!!


Yup. I'm taking all your advice. The kit comes with a pilot bearing:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7378316clutch01.jpg

You can rent a pilot bearing puller slide hammer from
most parts suppliers with a tool rental program. If it doesn't sound
like a cement mixer now, it soon will - - - -


The amazing thing is that I went to two parts stores today, both of which
rent out the pilot bearing puller and slide hammer (separately), where the
amazing thing is that the bearing pullers are all TOO BIG to fit inside
this pilot bearing!

The people at both stores tried to fit it inside the new bearing, which,
luckily, I had in my pocket, where they're too fat even though you can
slide the teeth forward one at a time.

It's pretty amazing since this looks like a pretty standard engine and so
it has a pretty standard pilot bearing, right? The pilot bearing is a "6201
RS" which is a very common bearing for lots of shafts.

The tool is two pieces, as you noted.
1. A slide hammer that screws into the back end of the tool
2. The tool itself, which has both sliding and expanding jaws

I'm not worried though, as the packed-grease method Terry Coombs suggested
might work anyway, and where I might have to do that if I can't find a
small enough pilot-bearing removal tool.


That can work great. But the biggest problem is finding a drift or bar
stock that EXACTLY fits the pilot bearing ... especially if the latter
is badly worn and possibly distorted. It is definitely worth a try
though, if you can't find a tool that fits.

It is hell to have to pull a damn engine to get the crankshaft out for
some piddly problem. Time and $$$. Sometimes though, it just works out
that way, so we just have to keep pulling wrenches and grin and bear it





  #50   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

Arlen Holder wrote:
On 24 Jul 2018 19:08:11 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

No experience with aftermarket flywheels or O-Reillys. Sachs or LUK
should bothbe good. Both are OEM manufacturers for many european
makers.

The flywheel looks bad enough that for the difference between $60 to
machine and $95 for a new LUK there shouldn't be any question.


Thanks Clare,

You have, by far, the most experience here and I have, by far, the least,
hence I appreciate the advice.

I was worried about getting the flywheel off, but it came out easily once I
put a 1/2-inch-socket breaker bar to the ten 14-mm 12-point bolts:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1179779flywheel07.jpg

I had to wait all day for the new flywheel to arrive, which it did late in
the day. So I'm sorry for the lousy before-and-after picture below but it
was taken at night when I got home.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2793357flywheel05.jpg

Looking at the flywheel, I can't visually see or feel anything that is any
lesser quality, where the box for the new flywheel has OE all over it, and
inside stickers saying it meets OEM specs.

I was surprised the new flywheel is almost the same thickness as the
original, the difference being almost imperceptible ... which I can measure
tomorrow, but you can barely feel it.

I had expected the new flywheel to be a lot thicker than the old one since
I know the original has about 180K miles on it and it was supposedly turned
once at somewhere around 80K miles sometime around 2005.


Clutches have gotten much better in the last few decades. Some of the
old cars from the 40's and 50's had to have the clutch routinely
serviced/replaced about every 50K miles. The durn brakes had to be
adjusted every few thousand miles, and tuneups with new points.

I drove a small 1990 ford FWD car for 250,000 miles and never replaced
the clutch, though lots of other things needed minor repairs. But I
never abused the clutch ... There were no teenage drivers.

The point is to not overdo this. The car may up and die from some
unrelated cause after you have gone the full 9 yards and spent a small
fortune.

If it wasn't Elvis Presley's car, or a priceless antique, your
investment is wiped out when it dies.

Good luck, and hoping you fix that buggy soon!







  #51   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 193
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 25 Jul 2018 05:54:45 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

The first 2 links show the correct part
The 88003should bethe right part


Thanks Clare,
This morning I confirmed with a local Toyota dealer that the right parts
a
1. Rear engine seal 90311-88003 (confirmed) $47.59 (not in stock)
2. Rear transmission seal 90311-30014 (confirmed) $15.4 (not in stock)

Almost always, the dealer doesn't have parts in stock, which kind of
negates the whole function of the parts guy at a dealership.

Works a lot better on "bushings" than "bearings" but could work. Use
THICK grease!!


What worked fine was your suggestion and that of others to use grease, only
my grease gun is from the 1940s (AFAIK) and I left it in the hot sun today
to snap pictures for you, so the grease was too runny to be effective.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9892867pilot01.jpg

What worked on top of the grease was chewed up pizza, which the wife made
for me, where the bolt is a M12x1.25 that I bought yesterday to make dowel
pins out of.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4393046alignmentpin03.jpg

I checked the M12x12 bolts in the engine block as alignment pins:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5138741alignmentpin01.jpg

I cut the hex head off and sliced a slot for a large screwdriver to fit:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1163525alignmentpin02.jpg

I tested that they fit in the holes in the transmission bell housing:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4393046alignmentpin03.jpg

And then I screwed them into the engine block to act as 2 more dowel pins:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=7157145alignmentpin04.jpg

Other than the fact the clutch fork and throwout bearing fell out before I
could mark which way they do, I think I'm ready to begin reassembly.'

Any reassembly advice would be useful as most DIYs say "reassembly is the
reverse of removal", which is never the case.
  #52   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 193
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 25 Jul 2018 13:19:54 GMT, Hank Rogers wrote:

That can work great. But the biggest problem is finding a drift or bar
stock that EXACTLY fits the pilot bearing ... especially if the latter
is badly worn and possibly distorted. It is definitely worth a try
though, if you can't find a tool that fits.


Thanks to the suggestions from Terry & Clare and others, the pilot bearing
is out.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2381579pilot04.jpg

I first tried the grease gun with an M12x1.25 bolt but my gun is old (it's
from the 1940's AFAIK) and it wasn't working well and the grease was too
thin (but I left it in the hot sun to take pictures and that didn't help).
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9892867pilot01.jpg

I used the wife's home made pizza, chewed up, and placed in the pilot hole.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1163525alignmentpin02.jpg

An M12x1.25 bolt that I bought to make dowel pins out of worked fine with
parafilm wrapped on the threads to snug it up a bit.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4879341pilot03.jpg

It only took about 10 minutes but it took am amazing number of refills.

Thanks everyone for that idea. Since the clutch fork fell out while I was
tipping the transmission on its end to look at the rear seal, everything is
out now (I just have to figure out how it all goes back together!).
  #53   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 193
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 25 Jul 2018 05:57:38 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

For gasket maker I never use anything but "the right stuff" from
Permatex


Thanks Clare.
I'm pretty much ready for reassembly.

I'm not sure if I pack the pilot bearing area with grease or not:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2381579pilot04.jpg

But here's that promised before & after flywheel photo with part numbers
stamped "Engineerd in USA PHT50-136-033118" on the new flywheel:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6217915flywheel001.jpg
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4020392flywheel002.jpg

One screwup is that the clutch fork and throwout bearing fell out when I
tipped the transmission vertical on the bell housing to look at the rear
seal where I'm not sure what the proper technique is to get it out.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5004047rearseal01.jpg

So I'm looking up how they went back together where I should have marked
the position when I first took the transmission off the engine.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9205011fork01.jpg

Most of my mistakes and questions are because I've never done this before.
Thanks for your patience and advice.
  #54   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,564
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 21:28:54 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

On 25 Jul 2018 05:57:38 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

For gasket maker I never use anything but "the right stuff" from
Permatex


Thanks Clare.
I'm pretty much ready for reassembly.

I'm not sure if I pack the pilot bearing area with grease or not:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2381579pilot04.jpg

But here's that promised before & after flywheel photo with part numbers
stamped "Engineerd in USA PHT50-136-033118" on the new flywheel:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6217915flywheel001.jpg
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4020392flywheel002.jpg

One screwup is that the clutch fork and throwout bearing fell out when I
tipped the transmission vertical on the bell housing to look at the rear
seal where I'm not sure what the proper technique is to get it out.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=5004047rearseal01.jpg

So I'm looking up how they went back together where I should have marked
the position when I first took the transmission off the engine.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=9205011fork01.jpg

Most of my mistakes and questions are because I've never done this before.
Thanks for your patience and advice.

There is only one way it will go together and go in. Sit down and
look at it for a while.
  #55   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 193
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 25 Jul 2018 18:17:05 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

There is only one way it will go together and go in. Sit down and
look at it for a while.


Thanks Clare,
You were right yet again, where the fork went back on the only way it can,
so I'm good (I'll post pictures later as I'm trying to use the daylight).

There are two spring clips, one for attaching the fork to the divot ball,
and the other for attaching the throwout bearing to the fork. Both slipped
in perfectly.

I torqued down the flywheel where the torque figures seemed kind of low to
me, so I upped them a bit.

Toyota says 20 foot pounds plus 1/4 turn for the 3RZFE engine, which seems
right, but 65 foot pounds for the 6-cylinder 5RZ, where 65 seems too low.
Most people seem to equate the two methods, but the first method definitely
gets an extra 10 foot pounds or so, IMHO. Anyway, I torqued to 75 because
65 didn't seem right. A drop of loctite blue (I won't use the red after I
read up on it).

Since I had never used loctite before, I didn't really it's as runny as
water. I had expected it to be more pasty.

It seems these are the torque figures I'll be using:
.. Starter bolts 30ft#
.. Bellhousing bolts 54ft#
.. Pressure plate bolts 14ft#
.. Flywheel (either 19 ft lbs+1/4 turn for 3RZ or 65ftlbs for the 2RZ & 5VZ)
(65 foot pounds feels kind of loose to me)

At this point, the only major worry is lining up the transmission for that
last inch, and then backing out the two bolts I made as dowel pins and then
getting the 30 inches of extension to torque the thing down.


  #56   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,564
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 01:38:21 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

On 25 Jul 2018 18:17:05 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

There is only one way it will go together and go in. Sit down and
look at it for a while.


Thanks Clare,
You were right yet again, where the fork went back on the only way it can,
so I'm good (I'll post pictures later as I'm trying to use the daylight).

There are two spring clips, one for attaching the fork to the divot ball,
and the other for attaching the throwout bearing to the fork. Both slipped
in perfectly.

I torqued down the flywheel where the torque figures seemed kind of low to
me, so I upped them a bit.

Toyota says 20 foot pounds plus 1/4 turn for the 3RZFE engine, which seems
right, but 65 foot pounds for the 6-cylinder 5RZ, where 65 seems too low.
Most people seem to equate the two methods, but the first method definitely
gets an extra 10 foot pounds or so, IMHO. Anyway, I torqued to 75 because
65 didn't seem right. A drop of loctite blue (I won't use the red after I
read up on it).

Since I had never used loctite before, I didn't really it's as runny as
water. I had expected it to be more pasty.

It seems these are the torque figures I'll be using:
. Starter bolts 30ft#
. Bellhousing bolts 54ft#
. Pressure plate bolts 14ft#
. Flywheel (either 19 ft lbs+1/4 turn for 3RZ or 65ftlbs for the 2RZ & 5VZ)
(65 foot pounds feels kind of loose to me)

At this point, the only major worry is lining up the transmission for that
last inch, and then backing out the two bolts I made as dowel pins and then
getting the 30 inches of extension to torque the thing down.





You are NOT a mechanical engineer..FOLLOW THE TORQUE SPECSs!!!!!!!
You do NOT want a flywheel bolt fracturing after you have it all back
together and running!!!!!!!!!!!
The torque spec is correct, and was arrived at for a good reason
The difference is the 3RZ uses torque to yield, or "stretch" bolts
(which SHOULD be replaced every time they are removed)
You do NOT want to over-stretch a bolt that is not designed for
"torque to yield" - or strip the threads out of the crankshaft
either!!!!!!!!
  #57   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,157
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On Wednesday, July 25, 2018 at 9:54:03 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 01:38:21 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

On 25 Jul 2018 18:17:05 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

There is only one way it will go together and go in. Sit down and
look at it for a while.


Thanks Clare,
You were right yet again, where the fork went back on the only way it can,
so I'm good (I'll post pictures later as I'm trying to use the daylight).

There are two spring clips, one for attaching the fork to the divot ball,
and the other for attaching the throwout bearing to the fork. Both slipped
in perfectly.

I torqued down the flywheel where the torque figures seemed kind of low to
me, so I upped them a bit.

Toyota says 20 foot pounds plus 1/4 turn for the 3RZFE engine, which seems
right, but 65 foot pounds for the 6-cylinder 5RZ, where 65 seems too low.
Most people seem to equate the two methods, but the first method definitely
gets an extra 10 foot pounds or so, IMHO. Anyway, I torqued to 75 because
65 didn't seem right. A drop of loctite blue (I won't use the red after I
read up on it).

Since I had never used loctite before, I didn't really it's as runny as
water. I had expected it to be more pasty.

It seems these are the torque figures I'll be using:
. Starter bolts 30ft#
. Bellhousing bolts 54ft#
. Pressure plate bolts 14ft#
. Flywheel (either 19 ft lbs+1/4 turn for 3RZ or 65ftlbs for the 2RZ & 5VZ)
(65 foot pounds feels kind of loose to me)

At this point, the only major worry is lining up the transmission for that
last inch, and then backing out the two bolts I made as dowel pins and then
getting the 30 inches of extension to torque the thing down.


You are NOT a mechanical engineer..FOLLOW THE TORQUE SPECSs!!!!!!!
You do NOT want a flywheel bolt fracturing after you have it all back
together and running!!!!!!!!!!!
The torque spec is correct, and was arrived at for a good reason
The difference is the 3RZ uses torque to yield, or "stretch" bolts
(which SHOULD be replaced every time they are removed)
You do NOT want to over-stretch a bolt that is not designed for
"torque to yield" - or strip the threads out of the crankshaft
either!!!!!!!!


I seem to recall torque specs being different for dry threads and lubed threads. I could be wrong because It's been a while since I was a young man spending all night under my old car fixing it so I could make it to work the next morning. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Mechanical Monster
  #58   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 193
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 25 Jul 2018 19:54:00 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

You are NOT a mechanical engineer..FOLLOW THE TORQUE SPECSs!!!!!!!
You do NOT want a flywheel bolt fracturing after you have it all back
together and running!!!!!!!!!!!
The torque spec is correct, and was arrived at for a good reason
The difference is the 3RZ uses torque to yield, or "stretch" bolts
(which SHOULD be replaced every time they are removed)
You do NOT want to over-stretch a bolt that is not designed for
"torque to yield" - or strip the threads out of the crankshaft
either!!!!!!!!


EDIT: I sent this yesterday but I see it failed and was still in my inbox.

Hi Clare,
Thanks for that advice as I hadn't thought of that (I keep doing things
after you mention them because I don't know what you'll mention).

You have a good point there. I'm not a mechanical engineer. I didn't
realize the 3RZFE bolts should be replaced since I didn't see that
anywhere.

What you say makes sense. I'll back them out tomorrow and re-torque them to
the original spec. I did make sure that I put all 10 bolts in, and then
tightened all ten, and then removed each in a star pattern, one by one, to
torque them so that the torque would be even.

I did the same on the 6 bolts of the diaphragm.

I stopped at the point of putting the transmission back in as I have to
modify the jack because of a stupid placement of the front-to-back lever
where it hits the transmission and can't go as far as I need it.

I also knocked off loose the throw out bearing, so I'm going to rubber
band the fork at the outside so that doesn't happen gain.

I also moved the dowel pins I made so that both are on the bottom because I
couldn't see the one at the top anyway.

Here are some shots, but I have to finish this job so they're not annotated
well.

I first hand tightened and then tool tightened all 10
flywheel bolts, and then removed them one at a time in
a star pattern to torque and loctite blue them where I
then painted a white dot indicating bolts that are done.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3249536clutch008.jpg

You can stick a 10mm battery holddown rod into the flywheel
holes to immobilize it but you're still going to need to
immobilize the flywheel later by wedging a prybar against
the teeth, so it's a waste of time to use the rod and,
besides, it gets in the way of long torque wrenches.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3686120clutch007.jpg

This is the clutch disc on the flywheel showing the correct
alignment of the springs, which face toward the transmission.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1640228clutch006.jpg

Putting the clutch on the flywheel was a breeze, where I jammed a
prybar into the flywheel teeth to immobilize it, and where I
put the alignment tool in the center. It was so easy, I'm not
sure what would have happend without the alignment tool as there
was nothing that I needed to align that I could tell.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6173425clutch005.jpg

I have to modify the jack which is stupidly designed such that you
can't twist the lever for adjustment when the transmission is on
the jack. Also I have to rubber-band the clutch fork so it doesn't
fall loose again when I'm jiggling the transmission into place.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=2711707clutch004.jpg

I greased the TOB fork but I need thicker grease than Mobile 1 bearing
grease:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=3390937clutch003.jpg

This shows the clutch on the engine with the temporary dowel pins ready:
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4146979clutch002.jpg

The transmission easily rolls to the temporary dowel pins
but that's where I needed the angle adjustment that the
badly designed transmission jack won't allow yet.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=6936189clutch001.jpg
  #59   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 193
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

Hi Clare,
You probably won't respond in time to help advise, me, but it's just not
going in.

I remember folks discussing putting the transmission in high gear (fifth in
this case), but I can't see why - but maybe it's to twist the transmission
shaft so that the male splined shaft at the front can be rotated a bit to
fit into the engine female splines?

I've been in neutral up until now, but I put the transmission in fifth but
what do you turn to rotate the shaft at the front?

The only thing there is are the splines on the back, but how do you turn
them? You can't get your fingers in there and you need a female spline
which you won't have.

I'm stuck. Do people normally have to rotate the transmission shaft?
How do you rotate it?
  #60   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 47
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

Arlen Holder wrote:
Hi Clare,
You probably won't respond in time to help advise, me, but it's just not
going in.

I remember folks discussing putting the transmission in high gear (fifth in
this case), but I can't see why - but maybe it's to twist the transmission
shaft so that the male splined shaft at the front can be rotated a bit to
fit into the engine female splines?

I've been in neutral up until now, but I put the transmission in fifth but
what do you turn to rotate the shaft at the front?

The only thing there is are the splines on the back, but how do you turn
them? You can't get your fingers in there and you need a female spline
which you won't have.

I'm stuck. Do people normally have to rotate the transmission shaft?
How do you rotate it?


Did you try both the clutch disk and the pilot brearing on the trans
before assembly?
If they fit ok then keep jigging the trans or back it out and turn the
shaft a couple of degrees by hand and try again.
Where is the drive shaft? Can you plug it into the back of the trans?
Tie the other end up on something to get it ~level.





  #61   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,564
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 22:29:34 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

Hi Clare,
You probably won't respond in time to help advise, me, but it's just not
going in.

I remember folks discussing putting the transmission in high gear (fifth in
this case), but I can't see why - but maybe it's to twist the transmission
shaft so that the male splined shaft at the front can be rotated a bit to
fit into the engine female splines?

I've been in neutral up until now, but I put the transmission in fifth but
what do you turn to rotate the shaft at the front?

The only thing there is are the splines on the back, but how do you turn
them? You can't get your fingers in there and you need a female spline
which you won't have.

I'm stuck. Do people normally have to rotate the transmission shaft?
How do you rotate it?


Stick the driveshaft in.
  #62   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 193
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 26 Jul 2018 16:51:31 GMT, Paul in Houston TX wrote:

Did you try both the clutch disk and the pilot brearing on the trans
before assembly?


Ah. No. I didn't even think of that.
Luckily it must fit - but that is a GREAT idea as a double check!

If they fit ok then keep jigging the trans or back it out and turn the
shaft a couple of degrees by hand and try again.


I jiggled with my head by the differential and my feet up on the
transmission (boy am I glad I removed the crossmember!) and jiggled that
transmission like it was a bowl of jelly. Something in all that jiggling
worked!

Where is the drive shaft? Can you plug it into the back of the trans?
Tie the other end up on something to get it ~level.


Thanks for that idea of the drive shaft. It's right here, but it never
occurred to me to use it. Now I know! Thanks.

I wonder if it's normal to have to move the transmission front shaft by
about 1/16 of an inch or so to make sure the splines line up with those
inside the pressure plate and clutch disc?

Pictures later.... got to get back to the job before nightfall.
  #63   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 193
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 26 Jul 2018 17:50:07 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

I'm stuck. Do people normally have to rotate the transmission shaft?
How do you rotate it?


Stick the driveshaft in.


Hi Clare,
I didn't think of that!

Thanks for all your help, as you are helping me UNDERSTAND what I'm doing!

Anyway, yet again, your answer came too late, but it's good to know as I
would have asked why on earth people said to put the transmission in the
high (fifth) gear, since that's the *only* step where it's needed (any gear
works fine for the rest of the transmission job).

I tried to use pliers on the shaft on the back of the transmission but
there's absolutely zero chance you'll spin it that way.

What I ended up doing was loosening the straps on the transmission jack and
then putting my head way back at the differential, and my feet on the back
of the transmission and I jiggled the transmission like it was a bowl of
jello.

When I went forward to look at the effect, voila, the bolts were lined up
and slid onto my two 17mm diameter threaded 3-inch dowels (which were a
Godsend, where I'm super happy that I machined them!).

I didn't use any loctite because I want to put all the bolts in first, and
then snug them up, and then remove one by one, to loctite blue when I'm
actually ready to torque them.

At this point, I don't have any questions as I'm just at the stage of
putting back the myriad bolts and sensors and fluid.

I have two now-old questions that I would love more detail on, both of
which are about "alignment" of the transmission shaft.

1. When I put on the clutch plate and diaphragm, I stuck the plastic
alignment tool in and then pulled it out when I was ready to put in the
transmission. What did I do by sticking that plastic tool in? I didn't
notice anything happening whatsoever. If I didn't use the alignment tool,
what would have happened? (I don't get what tool did.)

2. When I got stuck in the last inch or two on the transmission, I didn't
know why it wouldn't go that last inch. I thought of what it could be and
the most likely was that I was off center with the flywheel but it could
also have been maybe that the splines weren't lined up? If the splines
weren't lined up, would that stop the clutch from going in, or, would they
just line themselves up while I jiggled (something in that jiggling worked,
but what)?

I must repeat that neither of those two questions is critical because I'm
past that stage, but I'm curious about what exactly is aligned by the
plastic tool, and whether the splines in the end will line up on their own
with just jiggling or if the drive shaft is needed.

If the drive shaft is needed, it must only twist a teeny tiny amount,
because how much twisting could it take to align those splines (1/16th
inch?).

Pictures later.... got to get back to the job before nightfall.

Thanks for all your help, as you are helping me UNDERSTAND what I'm doing!
  #64   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,074
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 07/26/2018 07:51 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
1. When I put on the clutch plate and diaphragm, I stuck the plastic
alignment tool in and then pulled it out when I was ready to put in the
transmission. What did I do by sticking that plastic tool in? I didn't
notice anything happening whatsoever. If I didn't use the alignment tool,
what would have happened? (I don't get what tool did.)


If the clutch plate was aligned with the pilot bushing when you bolted
down the pressure plate you would know what the tool was for. How would
you align it without the tool?
  #65   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,564
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 01:50:52 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

On 26 Jul 2018 16:51:31 GMT, Paul in Houston TX wrote:

Did you try both the clutch disk and the pilot brearing on the trans
before assembly?


Ah. No. I didn't even think of that.
Luckily it must fit - but that is a GREAT idea as a double check!

If they fit ok then keep jigging the trans or back it out and turn the
shaft a couple of degrees by hand and try again.


I jiggled with my head by the differential and my feet up on the
transmission (boy am I glad I removed the crossmember!) and jiggled that
transmission like it was a bowl of jelly. Something in all that jiggling
worked!

Where is the drive shaft? Can you plug it into the back of the trans?
Tie the other end up on something to get it ~level.


Thanks for that idea of the drive shaft. It's right here, but it never
occurred to me to use it. Now I know! Thanks.

I wonder if it's normal to have to move the transmission front shaft by
about 1/16 of an inch or so to make sure the splines line up with those
inside the pressure plate and clutch disc?


The splines DO need to line up - don't you think? One way or another
something needs to make them not hit tooth to tooth.
Pictures later.... got to get back to the job before nightfall.



  #66   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,564
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 01:51:04 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

On 26 Jul 2018 17:50:07 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

I'm stuck. Do people normally have to rotate the transmission shaft?
How do you rotate it?


Stick the driveshaft in.


Hi Clare,
I didn't think of that!

Thanks for all your help, as you are helping me UNDERSTAND what I'm doing!

Anyway, yet again, your answer came too late, but it's good to know as I
would have asked why on earth people said to put the transmission in the
high (fifth) gear, since that's the *only* step where it's needed (any gear
works fine for the rest of the transmission job).

I tried to use pliers on the shaft on the back of the transmission but
there's absolutely zero chance you'll spin it that way.

What I ended up doing was loosening the straps on the transmission jack and
then putting my head way back at the differential, and my feet on the back
of the transmission and I jiggled the transmission like it was a bowl of
jello.

When I went forward to look at the effect, voila, the bolts were lined up
and slid onto my two 17mm diameter threaded 3-inch dowels (which were a
Godsend, where I'm super happy that I machined them!).

I didn't use any loctite because I want to put all the bolts in first, and
then snug them up, and then remove one by one, to loctite blue when I'm
actually ready to torque them.

At this point, I don't have any questions as I'm just at the stage of
putting back the myriad bolts and sensors and fluid.

I have two now-old questions that I would love more detail on, both of
which are about "alignment" of the transmission shaft.

1. When I put on the clutch plate and diaphragm, I stuck the plastic
alignment tool in and then pulled it out when I was ready to put in the
transmission. What did I do by sticking that plastic tool in? I didn't
notice anything happening whatsoever. If I didn't use the alignment tool,
what would have happened? (I don't get what tool did.)

Just think about it. What would center the disk on the flywheel
without the tool? What would happen if the center of the disk spline
and the center of the pilot shaft were not concentric?

Just for laughs, grab the old flywheek and the old clutch and act
like you are assembling it - see how many positions the disk will fit
in - then remember that ONLY ONE will fit!!!!!!! Whatare the chances
of you getting that disk one hundred percent centered on the flywheel
and the pressure plate without the pilot tool??????????

The FIRST time????

I've done it - not the first time - and not without a few devious
tricks - and I've reverted to making my own "pilot tool" out of a
couple sockets and many wraps of tape. I've made the tool out of a
broomstick using a drillpress and a file. (you do what you gotta do
when tools are not available. We called it a "zam-fix" when I was
teaching auto mechanics at Livingston Trades Training institute in
Zambia back in the seventies.

"gotta cheat to eat" was the term in a flat-rate repair shop.

For a rank ameteur if it works it's called "**** luck"

2. When I got stuck in the last inch or two on the transmission, I didn't
know why it wouldn't go that last inch. I thought of what it could be and
the most likely was that I was off center with the flywheel but it could
also have been maybe that the splines weren't lined up? If the splines
weren't lined up, would that stop the clutch from going in, or, would they
just line themselves up while I jiggled (something in that jiggling worked,
but what)?

I must repeat that neither of those two questions is critical because I'm
past that stage, but I'm curious about what exactly is aligned by the
plastic tool, and whether the splines in the end will line up on their own
with just jiggling or if the drive shaft is needed.

If the drive shaft is needed, it must only twist a teeny tiny amount,
because how much twisting could it take to align those splines (1/16th
inch?).

Pictures later.... got to get back to the job before nightfall.

Thanks for all your help, as you are helping me UNDERSTAND what I'm doing!

  #67   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 193
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 26 Jul 2018 20:26:55 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

The splines DO need to line up - don't you think? One way or another
something needs to make them not hit tooth to tooth.


Hi Clare,

Thanks for confirming as I had never thought about that problem until I
tried to figure out why the transmission wouldn't go that last inch or two.

I don't have *any* experience with this, where, I guess, or at least I
wonder if sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you don't.

If you get lucky, the splines line up, and you're in.
If you're not lucky, the question is what do "most people" do.

I suspect, based on your previous answer, is that they take the drive shaft
and twist the splines with the transmission in a 1:1 gear (or even
overdrive, if that exists).

If it's a 1:1 ratio, then it would seem only the teenies tinyies twist of
the driveshaft is what's needed.

Is that assumption correct?
  #68   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 193
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 26 Jul 2018 20:42:40 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

"gotta cheat to eat" was the term in a flat-rate repair shop.


Thanks for that good natured advice, Clare, where the job is 99% complete.

Everything is done except the starter motor and shift lever.

I put new oxygen sensors in, and new washers for the fill & drain plugs. I
filled it through the conning tower since that was already open, where it
was easy as pie to fill with the 2.7 quarts of Redline MT-90.

The only reason I didn't finish the shift lever is something doesn't look
right, so I'll search in the morning for pictures (I didn't take any good
ones).

The only reason I didn't put the starter motor in was that I tried for an
hour and couldn't because you need hands in two places that your hands
won't reach. I'll ask a neighbor to assist me tomorrow for that starter as
it's definitely a two-man job unless there's some kind of trick that I
don't know.

Then I'll take her for a test drive. Is there a bedding procedure for
clutches like there is for brakes?
  #69   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 193
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 22 Jul 2018 08:10:10 GMT, Arlen Holder wrote:

Which is best for dropping the transmission?


SOLVED!

It's done. I am gonna take it for a smoke test.

The new tools I'm glad I obtained were the transmission jack (thank God),
and the alignment tool that came with the clutch kit, and the assortment of
extension bars, and the two M12x1.25 3-inch threaded dowels.

In the end, I removed more than is necessary, but I'm glad I did remove the
front wheels (particularly the driver side), the front sway bar, the entire
harness (every bolt and every sensor), and the cross member.

The bitch was the starter motor, both getting out and even worse getting
back in, which is the only job that really required two people. I did
everything else alone. The second hardest task was lining up the
transmission to go in because you're staring at a hunk of aluminum not
knowing why it won't move forward.

The top two 17mm bell housing bolts were not easy, but not all that
difficult with 30 inches of extensions and swivels.

Pouring the new Redline MT-90 into the conning tower turns out to be the
*easiest* way to refill a transmission, bar none.

Having four 15-inch jack stands was instrumental, as I needed at least 23
inches of clearance from the frame to get the transmission in and out.

The actual transmission work was easy, including the diaphragm, the pilot
bearing, the throwout bearing, and the fork, but I would have liked thicker
grease on the fork (but I only had Mobil 1 bearing grease).

I wrote up a detailed DIY so that others could benefit from all the work,
and I took hundreds of pictures. I don't know if I'll ever associate the
pictures with each task, but I'll try to help others.

Thanks for all your advice and help. If there is a bedding procedure, now
is the time to let me know! Pictures later.

I very much appreciate you help, because it's my first clutch job ever and
I have nobody around me who knows anything about cars - so your advice was
instrumental!
  #70   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

Arlen Holder wrote:
On 22 Jul 2018 08:10:10 GMT, Arlen Holder wrote:

Which is best for dropping the transmission?


SOLVED!

It's done. I am gonna take it for a smoke test.

The new tools I'm glad I obtained were the transmission jack (thank God),
and the alignment tool that came with the clutch kit, and the assortment of
extension bars, and the two M12x1.25 3-inch threaded dowels.

In the end, I removed more than is necessary, but I'm glad I did remove the
front wheels (particularly the driver side), the front sway bar, the entire
harness (every bolt and every sensor), and the cross member.

The bitch was the starter motor, both getting out and even worse getting
back in, which is the only job that really required two people. I did
everything else alone. The second hardest task was lining up the
transmission to go in because you're staring at a hunk of aluminum not
knowing why it won't move forward.

The top two 17mm bell housing bolts were not easy, but not all that
difficult with 30 inches of extensions and swivels.

Pouring the new Redline MT-90 into the conning tower turns out to be the
*easiest* way to refill a transmission, bar none.

Having four 15-inch jack stands was instrumental, as I needed at least 23
inches of clearance from the frame to get the transmission in and out.

The actual transmission work was easy, including the diaphragm, the pilot
bearing, the throwout bearing, and the fork, but I would have liked thicker
grease on the fork (but I only had Mobil 1 bearing grease).

I wrote up a detailed DIY so that others could benefit from all the work,
and I took hundreds of pictures. I don't know if I'll ever associate the
pictures with each task, but I'll try to help others.

Thanks for all your advice and help. If there is a bedding procedure, now
is the time to let me know! Pictures later.

I very much appreciate you help, because it's my first clutch job ever and
I have nobody around me who knows anything about cars - so your advice was
instrumental!


Break it in just like you would do with new brake shoes or pads. Easy
for a while before you lean hard on it.




  #71   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 193
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 27 Jul 2018 17:20:42 GMT, Hank Rogers wrote:

Break it in just like you would do with new brake shoes or pads. Easy
for a while before you lean hard on it.


Thanks for that advice. I took it on a flat road and up a hill but not yet
on the highway as it's kind of far so I'll let the driver do that.

I did stall it a couple of times when I was doing a first and reverse K
turn, which is strange but that's because it used to grab almost at the top
of the clutch pedal return, and even then, it had grabbed smoothly (since
it was super worn).

Now it grabs much earlier and very firmly on the pedal uplift. Much earlier
than it did before. But that old clutch had something like 90K miles on it,
and about 10 years of driving, so a difference in feel is to be expected.

It's a self-adjusting (so to speak, but really that just means it's
hydraulic) so there's nothing to adjust but pedal play to the master
cylinder.

I'll deal with that adjustment later, as I've done it before and it's
really not a hard science it seems, as there's nothing but a bit of free
play to measure (you can't really measure it ... you just feel for it).

BTW, it's a stock 1:1 replacement for the 900 foot pound original clutch,
where the Marlin Crawler outfit sells a 1200 pound clutch that they 'say'
is better but I can't imagine what more foot pounds will do for a clutch
since the engine only develops something like 250 foot pounds (which may
not be the same type since one is angular and the other maybe not).

Anyway, everything is working - where I appreciate the help because it was
my first clutch, which took more than twice as long as I had thought it
would take and where, with your help, I did everything alone except for the
starter motor replacement - where a friend helped me.

It feels good to finally know what a pilot bearing is, and where it goes,
and how it goes in, and how it comes out. Likewise with the throwout
bearing.

I did test Clare's suggestion on the old clutch plate and diaphragm where I
can see now that gravity will pull it down off center which will then be
bolted off center if I don't use the alignment tool. With the alignment
tool, there was no alignment problem (other than having to jiggle the
bejesus out of the transmission to get the splines to line up).

Another thing Clare and others suggested was to spin the transmission
through the driveshaft, which turned out to be very easy when I tried it.


Overall, I'm glad I did it, as there are some jobs that are too big to do
at home, where lots of people consider this one of them. I feel like I
graduated, a bit, into an elite group, who has done a clutch at least once.
  #72   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,074
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 07/27/2018 06:13 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
The new tools I'm glad I obtained were the transmission jack (thank God),


I've done it without a jack when I was young and poor. Then I found you
could rent them from most rental places. I saw the light right after I
pulled the cast iron 4 speed primitive automatic from a '49 Chrysler. I
got it our without crushing any vital body parts but I knew it wasn't
going back in that way.

The bitch was the starter motor, both getting out and even worse getting
back in, which is the only job that really required two people.


https://www.greenpartstore.com/John-...nch-JDE80.html

Yeah, I know that's for a John Deere but it was the first link with a
photo I came to. Trust me, that's not even the weirdest starter motor
wrench I've seen. I'm sure when they're bolting the assembly together on
the production line it's a piece of cake but then they grease it up and
shove it into the body.

  #73   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,074
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 07/27/2018 06:20 PM, Hank Rogers wrote:
Break it in just like you would do with new brake shoes or pads. Easy
for a while before you lean hard on it.


Reading between the lines he is not the principal driver. Maybe take it
for a long, gentle road trip before handing it over...

Or there is the other school of break-in -- drive it like you stole it.
  #74   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 193
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 27 Jul 2018 18:08:20 GMT, rbowman wrote:

I've done it without a jack when I was young and poor.


I have heard of that, and, truth be told, this transmission was light
enough for me to move around in my hands, but, I'd *never* do the job
without that transmission jack. Too much chance of getting tired and
getting hurt if it doesn't go in or out on schedule.

I admire anyone who has removed a transmission without a jack!

Then I found you
could rent them from most rental places. I saw the light right after I
pulled the cast iron 4 speed primitive automatic from a '49 Chrysler. I
got it our without crushing any vital body parts but I knew it wasn't
going back in that way.


Cast iron. OMG. This one is aluminum, thank God. And 2WD. And I had taken
all the fluid out. So it was a light as it was going to get, and still, I
wouldn't do that job without a transmission jack.

I don't like the jack I got, but it did the job. It could adjust side to
side and up and down, but not much on the down because the handle hit the
bottom of the transmission (poor design). I had to bolt on a piece of 3/4
inch scrap to raise the transmission away from the knob.


The bitch was the starter motor, both getting out and even worse getting
back in, which is the only job that really required two people.


https://www.greenpartstore.com/John-...nch-JDE80.html


Something like that wrench might have worked. I tried every 14mm tool in my
repertoire, and finally I got it. There's no way I was gonna get a torque
wrench on it though, so, at 30 pounds, I just guessed.

Yeah, I know that's for a John Deere but it was the first link with a
photo I came to. Trust me, that's not even the weirdest starter motor
wrench I've seen. I'm sure when they're bolting the assembly together on
the production line it's a piece of cake but then they grease it up and
shove it into the body.


The problem was that the two bolts were blocked by almost everything no
matte rwhat direction you came at them.

If you tried from above, you could barely put a fingertip on the upper
bolt. If you tried from the wheel well, you could get only one hand. And
if you tried from below, you couldn't see what you're doing.

It was horrid.
But that part is over thank God.

Really - the hardest part, in hindsight, other than not knowing what to do,
was that starter motor. I'm glad it's over with. (It's my first starter
motor too.)

If I do it again, I'd pick up all the shapes of 14mm wrenches that God has
designed, hoping that one of them would be the perfect shape!
  #75   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,564
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 05:30:57 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

On 26 Jul 2018 20:26:55 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

The splines DO need to line up - don't you think? One way or another
something needs to make them not hit tooth to tooth.


Hi Clare,

Thanks for confirming as I had never thought about that problem until I
tried to figure out why the transmission wouldn't go that last inch or two.

I don't have *any* experience with this, where, I guess, or at least I
wonder if sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you don't.

If you get lucky, the splines line up, and you're in.
If you're not lucky, the question is what do "most people" do.

I suspect, based on your previous answer, is that they take the drive shaft
and twist the splines with the transmission in a 1:1 gear (or even
overdrive, if that exists).

If it's a 1:1 ratio, then it would seem only the teenies tinyies twist of
the driveshaft is what's needed.

Is that assumption correct?


yes


  #76   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,564
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 10:36:13 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

On 26 Jul 2018 20:42:40 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

"gotta cheat to eat" was the term in a flat-rate repair shop.


Thanks for that good natured advice, Clare, where the job is 99% complete.

Everything is done except the starter motor and shift lever.

I put new oxygen sensors in, and new washers for the fill & drain plugs. I
filled it through the conning tower since that was already open, where it
was easy as pie to fill with the 2.7 quarts of Redline MT-90.

The only reason I didn't finish the shift lever is something doesn't look
right, so I'll search in the morning for pictures (I didn't take any good
ones).

The only reason I didn't put the starter motor in was that I tried for an
hour and couldn't because you need hands in two places that your hands
won't reach. I'll ask a neighbor to assist me tomorrow for that starter as
it's definitely a two-man job unless there's some kind of trick that I
don't know.

Then I'll take her for a test drive. Is there a bedding procedure for
clutches like there is for brakes?

not really - - -
  #77   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,157
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On Friday, July 27, 2018 at 8:23:19 PM UTC-5, Arlen Holder wrote:
On 27 Jul 2018 18:08:20 GMT, rbowman wrote:

I've done it without a jack when I was young and poor.


I have heard of that, and, truth be told, this transmission was light
enough for me to move around in my hands, but, I'd *never* do the job
without that transmission jack. Too much chance of getting tired and
getting hurt if it doesn't go in or out on schedule.

I admire anyone who has removed a transmission without a jack!

Then I found you
could rent them from most rental places. I saw the light right after I
pulled the cast iron 4 speed primitive automatic from a '49 Chrysler. I
got it our without crushing any vital body parts but I knew it wasn't
going back in that way.


Cast iron. OMG. This one is aluminum, thank God. And 2WD. And I had taken
all the fluid out. So it was a light as it was going to get, and still, I
wouldn't do that job without a transmission jack.

I don't like the jack I got, but it did the job. It could adjust side to
side and up and down, but not much on the down because the handle hit the
bottom of the transmission (poor design). I had to bolt on a piece of 3/4
inch scrap to raise the transmission away from the knob.


The bitch was the starter motor, both getting out and even worse getting
back in, which is the only job that really required two people.


https://www.greenpartstore.com/John-...nch-JDE80.html


Something like that wrench might have worked. I tried every 14mm tool in my
repertoire, and finally I got it. There's no way I was gonna get a torque
wrench on it though, so, at 30 pounds, I just guessed.

Yeah, I know that's for a John Deere but it was the first link with a
photo I came to. Trust me, that's not even the weirdest starter motor
wrench I've seen. I'm sure when they're bolting the assembly together on
the production line it's a piece of cake but then they grease it up and
shove it into the body.


The problem was that the two bolts were blocked by almost everything no
matte rwhat direction you came at them.

If you tried from above, you could barely put a fingertip on the upper
bolt. If you tried from the wheel well, you could get only one hand. And
if you tried from below, you couldn't see what you're doing.

It was horrid.
But that part is over thank God.

Really - the hardest part, in hindsight, other than not knowing what to do,
was that starter motor. I'm glad it's over with. (It's my first starter
motor too.)

If I do it again, I'd pick up all the shapes of 14mm wrenches that God has
designed, hoping that one of them would be the perfect shape!


When I was a young man in college I changed the automatic transmission on a Slant Six in a 1965 Dodge Dart by hand. I put the transmission on my belly, grabbed the bell housing with my hands and used my feet to hold the tail shaft. Picked it up and slid it into place. Me and my brother used to change the little TorqueFlite transmissions on our Slant Six Darts and Valiants in that manner on a regular basis since we were always experimenting with the cars. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Mechanical Monster
  #78   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,074
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 07/27/2018 07:23 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
Cast iron. OMG. This one is aluminum, thank God. And 2WD. And I had taken
all the fluid out. So it was a light as it was going to get, and still, I
wouldn't do that job without a transmission jack.


The 3 and 4 speed transmissions with aluminum housings don't weigh that
much. Particularly when you're twenty.

The Chrysler otoh was a piece of work. It was very early in the
development of automatics so it had both a clutch and a fluid coupling.

https://www.allpar.com/mopar/m6.html

The moment of truth was when I took the whole weight and realized I
might be going for a personal best bench press.

The rest of the car followed suit. It was a straight 8, cast iron block
of course. No power steering. It was pleasant on the highway but my wife
used words I didn't think she knew trying to parallel park the beast.

They don't make cars like that anymore. Thank the Gods. At about 4500
pounds 0 to 60 took a while. My '62 Continental weighed in over 5000
pounds but it had a modern 430 ci V-8 and was a supercar compared to a
flat head straight 8 that was designed in the early '30s.


  #79   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,074
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 07/27/2018 08:24 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
When I was a young man in college I changed the automatic transmission on a Slant Six in a 1965 Dodge Dart by hand. I put the transmission on my belly, grabbed the bell housing with my hands and used my feet to hold the tail shaft. Picked it up and slid it into place. Me and my brother used to change the little TorqueFlite transmissions on our Slant Six Darts and Valiants in that manner on a regular basis since we were always experimenting with the cars. ^_^


I did the Torqueflite on my '60 Plymouth that way. Being young and dumb
I tried to 'rebuild' it. Eventually I replaced the wreckage with a
manual and a homegrown hydraulic clutch. That was fine until a state
trooper checked my emergency brake or the lack thereof. The Torquflite
had a drum brake on the tail shaft, the manual didn't. Next up was
replacing the rear axle with one that had emergency brake capability and
fabbing the linkage for it.

Fortunately Uncle Sam interrupted my project so I pulled the engine and
gave it to a friend and sent what was left to the scrap yard. I figured
Nixon was going to get me killed and I wouldn't need a car.


  #80   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair,rec.autos.tech
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 193
Default Clutch bolts and locktite

On 27 Jul 2018 19:16:22 GMT, Clare Snyder wrote:

If it's a 1:1 ratio, then it would seem only the teenies tinyies twist of
the driveshaft is what's needed.

Is that assumption correct?


yes


Thanks again for all your help.
I am happy to have finally, after many decades of being afraid of doing a
transmission, gotten my "boy scout badge" for doing one.

It's probably my first and last transmission ever, but I have already
forgotten about the "thousand situps" I did, in effect, by getting up and
down to get tools and parts over the past five days.

I'm told sometimes even transmission shops take as long (elapsed time) as I
did to replace a clutch, although I would think, in actual shop hours, the
job would be less than six or seven hours (I'm guessing though).

It took me longer because I documented every single step down to the detail
of the thread pitch, and I took many pictures, and I cleaned up the parts,
and I had to learn each time how to do the steps I had never done (like
aligning the transmission splines).

Most of the time the answers came too late, as I had figured them out by
then, but it's very nice to know that the solution I came up with (except
on torque) was the right one in the end.

I don't know what I'll do with that transmission jack. It will probably
take up space in my garage forever though.
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Locktite Bearing Glue Tim[_31_] Metalworking 16 September 14th 11 07:22 PM
Brass, Locktite & other "glues" Robert Swinney Metalworking 11 February 8th 06 03:09 PM
Does Locktite work on plastic [email protected] Home Repair 6 December 7th 05 01:58 AM
Ryobi Strimmer? Clutch or no clutch? john UK diy 4 April 13th 05 08:56 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:15 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"