Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools on this vehicle
whose tires I rotated today and which I plan on rotating every 4K miles (6K
km).

First question is what is the practical difference between these three 21mm
(13/16ths) "sockets" for the lug bolts on the car I was working on today?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/socket_ends.jpg
1. The standard lug wrench (green) has 6 points, each at a sharp angle.
2. The impact socket (black) has 6 points, each at a semicircular angle.
3. The standard socket (chrome) has 12 points, each at a sharp angle.

Second question, are these "cut marks" on a lug nut normal?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/dented_nuts.jpg
I always use deep sockets, which fit over the whole nut, so I know I didn't
make these marks - but what did make the marks? Are they factory original?
If so, why?

Third question is related to this combination pictu
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/torquewrench.jpg
Where this question is a combination question of:
a. Why is the green 21mm "lug wrench" so very short compared to all others?
b. What's the practical difference, if any, with respect to torquing lug
bolts to 85 foot pounds (115 N-m), between the two types of torque wrenches
shown?
c. Does anyone even use that bottom-most "auger style" ratchet bar for fast
removal anymore? (I don't have power bolt-removal tools so that's why I use
it.)
And, the most important question, for torquing lug nuts, is
d. Does the torque change depending on the length of the socket extension
bar?

Fourth question is more of an observation than a question, where I combed
the tires for rocks and nails, as I always do when I rotate the tires every
4K miles, when I saw this tiny little steel dot embedded in the rubber in
each of the front tires.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter1.jpg

That tiny dot turned out to be this funny-shaped steel sliver, pointy side
was pointing into the tire in both front tires.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter2.jpg

The question is whether these embedded rocks and splinters, of which I
always find between 50 and 100 in each tire (mostly tiny pebbles and bits
of glass stuck in the tiny sipes of the tire tread) would eventually fall
out as the rubber wears (negating the need to periodically pick them out at
each tire rotation)?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter3.jpg

In summary, I ask these basic questions simply to learn more about how to
better rotate tires every 4K miles (6.5K km).

On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 16:48:03 -0800, ultred ragnusen
wrote:

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools on this vehicle
whose tires I rotated today and which I plan on rotating every 4K miles (6K
km).

First question is what is the practical difference between these three 21mm
(13/16ths) "sockets" for the lug bolts on the car I was working on today?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/socket_ends.jpg
1. The standard lug wrench (green) has 6 points, each at a sharp angle.
2. The impact socket (black) has 6 points, each at a semicircular angle.
3. The standard socket (chrome) has 12 points, each at a sharp angle.

The impact socket is superior for that application - whether using an
impact driver or not. A 12 point socket is better in situations where
fine motion is required.

Second question, are these "cut marks" on a lug nut normal?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/dented_nuts.jpg

Yes, they are there from the factory.
I always use deep sockets, which fit over the whole nut, so I know I didn't
make these marks - but what did make the marks? Are they factory original?
If so, why?

Third question is related to this combination pictu
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/torquewrench.jpg

Where this question is a combination question of:
a. Why is the green 21mm "lug wrench" so very short compared to all others?

To make it fit in the jack bag
b. What's the practical difference, if any, with respect to torquing lug
bolts to 85 foot pounds (115 N-m), between the two types of torque wrenches
shown?

The Micrometer adjusting "click" is easier to use.
c. Does anyone even use that bottom-most "auger style" ratchet bar for fast
removal anymore? (I don't have power bolt-removal tools so that's why I use
it.)
A "speed handle" is very handy for spinning nuts on and off after
breaking them loose and before torquing. I still use mine a lot. - not
just for wheel nuts,
And, the most important question, for torquing lug nuts, is
d. Does the torque change depending on the length of the socket extension
bar?

No.

Fourth question is more of an observation than a question, where I combed
the tires for rocks and nails, as I always do when I rotate the tires every
4K miles, when I saw this tiny little steel dot embedded in the rubber in
each of the front tires.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter1.jpg

That tiny dot turned out to be this funny-shaped steel sliver, pointy side
was pointing into the tire in both front tires.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter2.jpg

Looks like a small staple.

The question is whether these embedded rocks and splinters, of which I
always find between 50 and 100 in each tire (mostly tiny pebbles and bits
of glass stuck in the tiny sipes of the tire tread) would eventually fall
out as the rubber wears (negating the need to periodically pick them out at
each tire rotation)?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter3.jpg

In summary, I ask these basic questions simply to learn more about how to
better rotate tires every 4K miles (6.5K km).


You are best to rotate only front to back on MOST vehicles -and MUST
do so with "directional" tires.

In over 40 years Ihave NEVER done side to side rotations. (and I'm a
mechanic)

On 2/17/18 6:48 PM, ultred ragnusen wrote:
Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools on this vehicle
whose tires I rotated today and which I plan on rotating every 4K miles (6K
km).

Four thousand miles? Why so often? Is that what the owner's
manual
recommends?

On 2/17/2018 8:43 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:



You are best to rotate only front to back on MOST vehicles -and MUST
do so with "directional" tires.

In over 40 years Ihave NEVER done side to side rotations. (and I'm a
mechanic)


I knowof people that have done side to side on car with different size
front and back, but it seems about useless.

I also rotate with oil changes at 7500. IMO, 4000 is a bit too soon but
if you have the time and engergy . . .

On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 16:48:03 -0800, ultred ragnusen
wrote:

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools on this vehicle
whose tires I rotated today and which I plan on rotating every 4K miles (6K
km).

First question is what is the practical difference between these three 21mm
(13/16ths) "sockets" for the lug bolts on the car I was working on today?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/socket_ends.jpg
1. The standard lug wrench (green) has 6 points, each at a sharp angle.
2. The impact socket (black) has 6 points, each at a semicircular angle.
3. The standard socket (chrome) has 12 points, each at a sharp angle.


Only use 6 point sockets on lug nuts, breaker bar or impact.
They are never really that precise, they tend to have rounder corners
and they are softer than most nuts.
I have had to remove enough rounded off lug nuts to know that.

Second question, are these "cut marks" on a lug nut normal?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/dented_nuts.jpg
I always use deep sockets, which fit over the whole nut, so I know I didn't
make these marks - but what did make the marks? Are they factory original?
If so, why?

They are on a lot of lug nuts, right out of the box. I am not sure
why.

Third question is related to this combination pictu
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/torquewrench.jpg
Where this question is a combination question of:
a. Why is the green 21mm "lug wrench" so very short compared to all others?
To fit in the hole they store the tools in.

b. What's the practical difference, if any, with respect to torquing lug
bolts to 85 foot pounds (115 N-m), between the two types of torque wrenches
shown?
The clicker is easier to use, the bar style may actually be more
accurate if the clicker was not calibrated recently.

c. Does anyone even use that bottom-most "auger style" ratchet bar for fast
removal anymore? (I don't have power bolt-removal tools so that's why I use
it.)
It works but it is just one more tool. You can usually spin them off
with your fingers.

And, the most important question, for torquing lug nuts, is
d. Does the torque change depending on the length of the socket extension
bar?
No.


Fourth question is more of an observation than a question, where I combed
the tires for rocks and nails, as I always do when I rotate the tires every
4K miles, when I saw this tiny little steel dot embedded in the rubber in
each of the front tires.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter1.jpg

That tiny dot turned out to be this funny-shaped steel sliver, pointy side
was pointing into the tire in both front tires.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter2.jpg

The question is whether these embedded rocks and splinters, of which I
always find between 50 and 100 in each tire (mostly tiny pebbles and bits
of glass stuck in the tiny sipes of the tire tread) would eventually fall
out as the rubber wears (negating the need to periodically pick them out at
each tire rotation)?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter3.jpg

I am not sure what that is but strange stuff lands in the road and
ends up in tires. Some times it will work itself out, other times it
goes in deeper.


In summary, I ask these basic questions simply to learn more about how to
better rotate tires every 4K miles (6.5K km).

I only rotate tires when I replace 2.

On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 10:50:04 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 16:48:03 -0800, ultred ragnusen
wrote:

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools on this vehicle
whose tires I rotated today and which I plan on rotating every 4K miles (6K
km).

First question is what is the practical difference between these three 21mm
(13/16ths) "sockets" for the lug bolts on the car I was working on today?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/socket_ends.jpg
1. The standard lug wrench (green) has 6 points, each at a sharp angle.
2. The impact socket (black) has 6 points, each at a semicircular angle.
3. The standard socket (chrome) has 12 points, each at a sharp angle.


Only use 6 point sockets on lug nuts, breaker bar or impact.
They are never really that precise, they tend to have rounder corners
and they are softer than most nuts.
I have had to remove enough rounded off lug nuts to know that.

Second question, are these "cut marks" on a lug nut normal?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/dented_nuts.jpg
I always use deep sockets, which fit over the whole nut, so I know I didn't
make these marks - but what did make the marks? Are they factory original?
If so, why?

They are on a lot of lug nuts, right out of the box. I am not sure
why.

Third question is related to this combination pictu
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/torquewrench.jpg
Where this question is a combination question of:
a. Why is the green 21mm "lug wrench" so very short compared to all others?
To fit in the hole they store the tools in.

b. What's the practical difference, if any, with respect to torquing lug
bolts to 85 foot pounds (115 N-m), between the two types of torque wrenches
shown?
The clicker is easier to use, the bar style may actually be more
accurate if the clicker was not calibrated recently.

c. Does anyone even use that bottom-most "auger style" ratchet bar for fast
removal anymore? (I don't have power bolt-removal tools so that's why I use
it.)
It works but it is just one more tool. You can usually spin them off
with your fingers.

And, the most important question, for torquing lug nuts, is
d. Does the torque change depending on the length of the socket extension
bar?
No.


Not clear what he means by socket extension bar. If he means a socket extension that goes into the socket which a breaker bar then goes to, I agree, the answer is no. But if he means a different length breaker bar, the answer obviously is yes.






Fourth question is more of an observation than a question, where I combed
the tires for rocks and nails, as I always do when I rotate the tires every
4K miles, when I saw this tiny little steel dot embedded in the rubber in
each of the front tires.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter1.jpg

That tiny dot turned out to be this funny-shaped steel sliver, pointy side
was pointing into the tire in both front tires.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter2.jpg

The question is whether these embedded rocks and splinters, of which I
always find between 50 and 100 in each tire (mostly tiny pebbles and bits
of glass stuck in the tiny sipes of the tire tread) would eventually fall
out as the rubber wears (negating the need to periodically pick them out at
each tire rotation)?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter3.jpg

I am not sure what that is but strange stuff lands in the road and
ends up in tires. Some times it will work itself out, other times it
goes in deeper.


In summary, I ask these basic questions simply to learn more about how to
better rotate tires every 4K miles (6.5K km).

I only rotate tires when I replace 2.

On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 22:49:51 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 16:48:03 -0800, ultred ragnusen
wrote:

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools on this vehicle
whose tires I rotated today and which I plan on rotating every 4K miles (6K
km).

First question is what is the practical difference between these three 21mm
(13/16ths) "sockets" for the lug bolts on the car I was working on today?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/socket_ends.jpg
1. The standard lug wrench (green) has 6 points, each at a sharp angle.
2. The impact socket (black) has 6 points, each at a semicircular angle.
3. The standard socket (chrome) has 12 points, each at a sharp angle.


Only use 6 point sockets on lug nuts, breaker bar or impact.
They are never really that precise, they tend to have rounder corners
and they are softer than most nuts.



I will have to respectfully dissagree with you on 12 point sockets.
High quality 12 point sockets are a JOY to work with - and with hand
tools (ratchet and torque wrench) I have NEVER had an issue with them
being too soft. I have split ONE good 12 poit (early craftsman) along
with several crappy off-brands - but I have split quite a few 6
points.

You NEVER use 12 points on an impact.
When it comes to 1/2 drive sockets, ALL of my 6 points are impact -
all of my "hand tool" 1/2 drive sockets are 12 point and I wouldn't
have it any other way. They are thinner so virtually never have
clearance issues.


Usung a 13/16 socket in place of a 21mm can cause a lugnet to round
(fits loose), same using a 3/4 on a 19mm.
Metric sockets fit the 3/4 and 13/16 lugnuts VERY snuggly.
I have had to remove enough rounded off lug nuts to know that.


Seen way too many "tire installers" zip a 3/4" or 19mm nut on with a
21mm or 13/16" socket too - and THAT rounds lugnuts.

aNd then there are those tincan chrome capnuts that GM and many other
manufacturers are so fond of - the cap gets hammered and loose and
spins on the (undersized) (butter-soft) steel nut hidden within.

Second question, are these "cut marks" on a lug nut normal?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/dented_nuts.jpg
I always use deep sockets, which fit over the whole nut, so I know I didn't
make these marks - but what did make the marks? Are they factory original?
If so, why?

They are on a lot of lug nuts, right out of the box. I am not sure
why.

Third question is related to this combination pictu
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/torquewrench.jpg
Where this question is a combination question of:
a. Why is the green 21mm "lug wrench" so very short compared to all others?
To fit in the hole they store the tools in.

b. What's the practical difference, if any, with respect to torquing lug
bolts to 85 foot pounds (115 N-m), between the two types of torque wrenches
shown?
The clicker is easier to use, the bar style may actually be more
accurate if the clicker was not calibrated recently.

c. Does anyone even use that bottom-most "auger style" ratchet bar for fast
removal anymore? (I don't have power bolt-removal tools so that's why I use
it.)
It works but it is just one more tool. You can usually spin them off
with your fingers.

And, the most important question, for torquing lug nuts, is
d. Does the torque change depending on the length of the socket extension
bar?
No.


Fourth question is more of an observation than a question, where I combed
the tires for rocks and nails, as I always do when I rotate the tires every
4K miles, when I saw this tiny little steel dot embedded in the rubber in
each of the front tires.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter1.jpg

That tiny dot turned out to be this funny-shaped steel sliver, pointy side
was pointing into the tire in both front tires.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter2.jpg

The question is whether these embedded rocks and splinters, of which I
always find between 50 and 100 in each tire (mostly tiny pebbles and bits
of glass stuck in the tiny sipes of the tire tread) would eventually fall
out as the rubber wears (negating the need to periodically pick them out at
each tire rotation)?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter3.jpg

I am not sure what that is but strange stuff lands in the road and
ends up in tires. Some times it will work itself out, other times it
goes in deeper.


In summary, I ask these basic questions simply to learn more about how to
better rotate tires every 4K miles (6.5K km).

I only rotate tires when I replace 2.

On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 23:37:53 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 22:49:51 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 16:48:03 -0800, ultred ragnusen
wrote:

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools on this vehicle
whose tires I rotated today and which I plan on rotating every 4K miles (6K
km).

First question is what is the practical difference between these three 21mm
(13/16ths) "sockets" for the lug bolts on the car I was working on today?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/socket_ends.jpg
1. The standard lug wrench (green) has 6 points, each at a sharp angle.
2. The impact socket (black) has 6 points, each at a semicircular angle.
3. The standard socket (chrome) has 12 points, each at a sharp angle.


Only use 6 point sockets on lug nuts, breaker bar or impact.
They are never really that precise, they tend to have rounder corners
and they are softer than most nuts.



I will have to respectfully dissagree with you on 12 point sockets.
High quality 12 point sockets are a JOY to work with - and with hand
tools (ratchet and torque wrench) I have NEVER had an issue with them
being too soft. I have split ONE good 12 poit (early craftsman) along
with several crappy off-brands - but I have split quite a few 6
points.

If you are using chrome lug nuts with sharp corners a 12 point
probably works fine but if you are talking about garden variety
factory lug nuts that have "been around" a while, a 12 point is a lot
more likely to just round them off than a 6 point. Have you ever seen
a tire store using 12 point sockets on lug nuts?

On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 00:23:33 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 23:37:53 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 22:49:51 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 16:48:03 -0800, ultred ragnusen
wrote:

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools on this vehicle
whose tires I rotated today and which I plan on rotating every 4K miles (6K
km).

First question is what is the practical difference between these three 21mm
(13/16ths) "sockets" for the lug bolts on the car I was working on today?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/socket_ends.jpg
1. The standard lug wrench (green) has 6 points, each at a sharp angle.
2. The impact socket (black) has 6 points, each at a semicircular angle.
3. The standard socket (chrome) has 12 points, each at a sharp angle.


Only use 6 point sockets on lug nuts, breaker bar or impact.
They are never really that precise, they tend to have rounder corners
and they are softer than most nuts.



I will have to respectfully dissagree with you on 12 point sockets.
High quality 12 point sockets are a JOY to work with - and with hand
tools (ratchet and torque wrench) I have NEVER had an issue with them
being too soft. I have split ONE good 12 poit (early craftsman) along
with several crappy off-brands - but I have split quite a few 6
points.

If you are using chrome lug nuts with sharp corners a 12 point
probably works fine but if you are talking about garden variety
factory lug nuts that have "been around" a while, a 12 point is a lot
more likely to just round them off than a 6 point. Have you ever seen
a tire store using 12 point sockets on lug nuts?
I don't use 12 pointes on wheel nuts either - but on juist about
anything else that is not rusted I don't think twice. Again - NEVER on
an impact!!!! On suspension parts, it's 6 point impact sockets.

A "flankdrive" socket drives on the FLATS, not on the tips, so doesn't
round nuts or bolts. Flank-drive is a snap-on "brand" - but other
companies do the same thing.

wrote:

Four thousand miles? Why so often? Is that what the owner's
manual recommends?

There is no doubt that 4K miles is the correct number because the alignment
is correct and the front tires get a palpable feathering on the outside
edges after about 4K miles.

It's been reliable, as this is the fourth rotation of these tires, and the
same thing happens every single time, where I've actually been doing it not
by mileage but by the feeling of the tires - but when I write down the
miles, it's just about every 4K miles.

The roads are very windy for miles at below 20 mph and very steep.

wrote:

The clicker is easier to use, the bar style may actually be more
accurate if the clicker was not calibrated recently.

I don't know how to "calibrate" a torque wrench at home.
Do you?

On 18-Feb-18 12:48 AM, ultred ragnusen wrote:
Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools on this vehicle
whose tires I rotated today and which I plan on rotating every 4K miles (6K
km).

First question is what is the practical difference between these three 21mm
(13/16ths) "sockets" for the lug bolts on the car I was working on today?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/socket_ends.jpg
1. The standard lug wrench (green) has 6 points, each at a sharp angle.
2. The impact socket (black) has 6 points, each at a semicircular angle.
3. The standard socket (chrome) has 12 points, each at a sharp angle.

The impact socket has a radius at the points to remove the stress
concentration that would split the socket when used with impact tools.
It also contacts the nut on the strong flank and not the weak point.

A full hex is better than a 12 point for nearly all uses. You can always
rotate the socket 1/4 turn on the 1/2" drive to get 12th of a turn when
space to swing the bar is tight.

On 18/02/2018 01:43, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 16:48:03 -0800, ultred ragnusen
wrote:

Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools on this vehicle
whose tires I rotated today and which I plan on rotating every 4K miles (6K
km).

First question is what is the practical difference between these three 21mm
(13/16ths) "sockets" for the lug bolts on the car I was working on today?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/socket_ends.jpg
1. The standard lug wrench (green) has 6 points, each at a sharp angle.
2. The impact socket (black) has 6 points, each at a semicircular angle.
3. The standard socket (chrome) has 12 points, each at a sharp angle.

The impact socket is superior for that application - whether using an
impact driver or not. A 12 point socket is better in situations where
fine motion is required.

Second question, are these "cut marks" on a lug nut normal?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/dented_nuts.jpg

Yes, they are there from the factory.

Why? Not all nuts have this mark, and in the UK nuts with this mark are
generally used for hoses that contain inflammable gases.

On 2/18/2018 1:40 AM, ultred ragnusen wrote:
wrote:

The clicker is easier to use, the bar style may actually be more
accurate if the clicker was not calibrated recently.

I don't know how to "calibrate" a torque wrench at home.
Do you?


Lacking an actual torque wrench, be sure to use equal pressure on all
the nuts. I use a two step process. First, tighten them to just snug
using a cross pattern. Then go back and tighten each one as evenly as
you can feel to tight, but don't kill them. Hard to decribe but you
don't want to stand on the wrench to get them very tight.

trader_4 wrote:

Not clear what he means by socket extension bar. If he means a socket
extension that goes into the socket which a breaker bar then goes to,
I agree, the answer is no. But if he means a different length breaker
bar, the answer obviously is yes.

He could be referencing the special torque bars that are used by many
tire shops. They look like an extension bar, but they come in
different thicknesses and are color coded to indicate the torque which
can be applied using each one.

See: Astro 78810 10-Piece Torque Limiting Extension Set - Torque
Wrenches - Amazon.com http://tinyurl.com/y8aofhfu

--
"In matters of conscience, the law of the majority has no place."

"Truth Sounds Like Hate To Those Who Hate The Truth"

wrote:

Lacking an actual torque wrench, be sure to use equal pressure on all
the nuts. I use a two step process. First, tighten them to just snug
using a cross pattern. Then go back and tighten each one as evenly as
you can feel to tight, but don't kill them. Hard to decribe but you
don't want to stand on the wrench to get them very tight.

The only way I know to "test" (but not "calibrate") a torque wrench is to
have a double-headed bolt contraption that is long enough for two sockets
to fit face to face.

Then I would put a torque wrench on each end, and lock one in a vise and
twist the other where they should both show the same torque.

That only "tests" them.
I don't know how to calibrate them because both could be wrong.
And you have to "adjust" them if they are.

Does anyone know how to calibrate a torque wrench at home?

wrote:

First question is what is the practical difference between these three 21mm
(13/16ths) "sockets" for the lug bolts on the car I was working on today?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/socket_ends.jpg
1. The standard lug wrench (green) has 6 points, each at a sharp angle.
2. The impact socket (black) has 6 points, each at a semicircular angle.
3. The standard socket (chrome) has 12 points, each at a sharp angle.

The impact socket has a radius at the points to remove the stress
concentration that would split the socket when used with impact tools.
It also contacts the nut on the strong flank and not the weak point.

That makes sense! So the rounded corners take the 'stress' off the nut and
the rounded corner also takes the stress off from the potential for a
hairline crack of the socket wall?

A full hex is better than a 12 point for nearly all uses.

I was wondering if a 12-point is "weaker" than a 6 point?
Is at 6 point stronger, weaker, or the same stress on a nut/socket as a 12
point?

You can always
rotate the socket 1/4 turn on the 1/2" drive to get 12th of a turn when
space to swing the bar is tight.

I never thought of that!
The math confused me so may I reiterate what I "think" you just said?

Am I correct in assuming you're saying that you can rotate a 12-point
socket by 1/12th, while you can only rotate a 6-point socket by 1/6th ---
but ... if you cleverly rotate /both/ the 6-point socket by 1/6th and the
half-inch socket wrench end of the socket by 1/4, you get the same effect?

On 18/02/2018 16:49, ultred ragnusen wrote:
wrote:

Lacking an actual torque wrench, be sure to use equal pressure on all
the nuts. I use a two step process. First, tighten them to just snug
using a cross pattern. Then go back and tighten each one as evenly as
you can feel to tight, but don't kill them. Hard to decribe but you
don't want to stand on the wrench to get them very tight.

The only way I know to "test" (but not "calibrate") a torque wrench is to
have a double-headed bolt contraption that is long enough for two sockets
to fit face to face.

Then I would put a torque wrench on each end, and lock one in a vise and
twist the other where they should both show the same torque.

That only "tests" them.
I don't know how to calibrate them because both could be wrong.
And you have to "adjust" them if they are.

Does anyone know how to calibrate a torque wrench at home?


Clamp head with handle horizontal; hang bucket of water measured
distance from head; add water until clicks; weight bucket; do sum.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

wrote:

First question is what is the practical difference between these three 21mm
(13/16ths) "sockets" for the lug bolts on the car I was working on today?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/socket_ends.jpg
1. The standard lug wrench (green) has 6 points, each at a sharp angle.
2. The impact socket (black) has 6 points, each at a semicircular angle.
3. The standard socket (chrome) has 12 points, each at a sharp angle.

The impact socket is superior for that application - whether using an
impact driver or not. A 12 point socket is better in situations where
fine motion is required.

This is good to know that the impact socket is superior, probably for two
reasons, right?
1. It has those radius corners (someone said it reduces stress on both the
nuts and the socket itself).
2. It is stronger overall (presumably)

Since there is always a drawback, I think the drawback might be:
3. They're "fatter" it seems, than my normal sockets
4. They don't seem to come in 12-point sizes (at least mine aren't)

wrote:

Does anyone know how to calibrate a torque wrench at home?


Clamp head with handle horizontal; hang bucket of water measured
distance from head; add water until clicks; weight bucket; do sum.

On a diagram, I see how hanging a known weight a known distance from the
head will test the torque to see if it's correct ... but ...

And I can visualize how to mechanically clamp a bolt in a vise to hang the
torque wrench on - but then - how do you calibrate the two types?

wrote:

If you are using chrome lug nuts with sharp corners a 12 point
probably works fine but if you are talking about garden variety
factory lug nuts that have "been around" a while, a 12 point is a lot
more likely to just round them off than a 6 point. Have you ever seen
a tire store using 12 point sockets on lug nuts?

That's what I was wondering but I didn't know why.

Does a 12-point tend to round nuts more than a 6 point?

Why?

Is it because there's more force against the nut's point?

wrote:

He could be referencing the special torque bars that are used by many
tire shops. They look like an extension bar, but they come in
different thicknesses and are color coded to indicate the torque which
can be applied using each one.

I just mean the right-angle simple bar extension that you have to have in
order to keep the torque wrench away from the sidewall of the tire.

You have to have an extension no matter what, because the torque wrench
hits the tire sidewall because the lug nuts are on the hub but the tire
sidewall sticks out a few inches.

Even a deep socket isn't long enough, so the least I can add by way of
extension is a deep socket plus a 2 or 3 inch extension bar (whatever I
have that is shortest).

I was asking if I used a 3 inch extension bar off the deep socket, or, if I
used a 6 inch extension bar, would it matter for the torque?

I think not - but I've heard people say use the shortest extension bar you
can get your hands on. I don't understand why. It should be the same torque
if I used a 16-inch extension bar, right?

wrote:

Second question, are these "cut marks" on a lug nut normal?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/dented_nuts.jpg

Yes, they are there from the factory.

Why? Not all nuts have this mark, and in the UK nuts with this mark are
generally used for hoses that contain inflammable gases.

I also wonder why the cuts are there, all at the same depth on the nut.

A friend I just spoke to says his car has them too, so, they're pretty
common.

If they're made at the factory, why?

wrote:

Third question is related to this combination pictu
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/torquewrench.jpg
Where this question is a combination question of:
a. Why is the green 21mm "lug wrench" so very short compared to all others?
To fit in the hole they store the tools in.

I can't disagree that the shape and length of a purposeful "lug wrench" is
designed just for removing lug nuts, so certainly that's why it's curved
the way it is (to fit around the tire sidewall).

Certainly smaller is easier to fit in a car.

Since you can't use a torque wrench and a lug wrench at the same time, I
was wondering if they made it just short enough so that a normal person
could not apply "too much" torque to the lug bolts?

Basically, I was asking if it's short because that way, a normal human can
only apply about 85 foot pounds which is all they can do with that short
bar and their hands?

Is that just an urban myth?

On 18/02/2018 00:48, ultred ragnusen wrote:
Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools on this vehicle
whose tires I rotated today and which I plan on rotating every 4K miles (6K
km).

First question is what is the practical difference between these three 21mm
(13/16ths) "sockets" for the lug bolts on the car I was working on today?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/socket_ends.jpg
1. The standard lug wrench (green) has 6 points, each at a sharp angle.
2. The impact socket (black) has 6 points, each at a semicircular angle.
3. The standard socket (chrome) has 12 points, each at a sharp angle.

Second question, are these "cut marks" on a lug nut normal?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/dented_nuts.jpg
I always use deep sockets, which fit over the whole nut, so I know I didn't
make these marks - but what did make the marks? Are they factory original?
If so, why?

Third question is related to this combination pictu
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/torquewrench.jpg
Where this question is a combination question of:
a. Why is the green 21mm "lug wrench" so very short compared to all others?
b. What's the practical difference, if any, with respect to torquing lug
bolts to 85 foot pounds (115 N-m), between the two types of torque wrenches
shown?
c. Does anyone even use that bottom-most "auger style" ratchet bar for fast
removal anymore? (I don't have power bolt-removal tools so that's why I use
it.)
And, the most important question, for torquing lug nuts, is
d. Does the torque change depending on the length of the socket extension
bar?

Fourth question is more of an observation than a question, where I combed
the tires for rocks and nails, as I always do when I rotate the tires every
4K miles, when I saw this tiny little steel dot embedded in the rubber in
each of the front tires.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter1.jpg

That tiny dot turned out to be this funny-shaped steel sliver, pointy side
was pointing into the tire in both front tires.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter2.jpg

The question is whether these embedded rocks and splinters, of which I
always find between 50 and 100 in each tire (mostly tiny pebbles and bits
of glass stuck in the tiny sipes of the tire tread) would eventually fall
out as the rubber wears (negating the need to periodically pick them out at
each tire rotation)?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter3.jpg

In summary, I ask these basic questions simply to learn more about how to
better rotate tires every 4K miles (6.5K km).



for gods sake get a life.

On 18/02/2018 17:04, ultred ragnusen wrote:
wrote:

Does anyone know how to calibrate a torque wrench at home?


Clamp head with handle horizontal; hang bucket of water measured
distance from head; add water until clicks; weight bucket; do sum.

On a diagram, I see how hanging a known weight a known distance from the
head will test the torque to see if it's correct ... but ...

And I can visualize how to mechanically clamp a bolt in a vise to hang the
torque wrench on - but then - how do you calibrate the two types?

There are loads of videos on YouTube which may help - eg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZUDH13yln0

NB he failed to correct for the weight of the torque wrench itself which
- to a first approximation - acts through a point halfway along its
length

If it's a wrench where you read the torque then you can just take a
reading with a bucket of water and compare it to the results of you sum
- and repeat for heavier/lighter buckets.

If you've a hydraulic wrench then I pass.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 18/02/2018 17:00, ultred ragnusen wrote:
wrote:

First question is what is the practical difference between these three 21mm
(13/16ths) "sockets" for the lug bolts on the car I was working on today?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/socket_ends.jpg
1. The standard lug wrench (green) has 6 points, each at a sharp angle.
2. The impact socket (black) has 6 points, each at a semicircular angle.
3. The standard socket (chrome) has 12 points, each at a sharp angle.

The impact socket is superior for that application - whether using an
impact driver or not. A 12 point socket is better in situations where
fine motion is required.

This is good to know that the impact socket is superior, probably for two
reasons, right?
1. It has those radius corners (someone said it reduces stress on both the
nuts and the socket itself).
2. It is stronger overall (presumably)

Since there is always a drawback, I think the drawback might be:
3. They're "fatter" it seems, than my normal sockets
4. They don't seem to come in 12-point sizes (at least mine aren't)


I use single hex impact sockets for 99.9 percent of jobs, there are
practically speaking no occasions when they are too fat to get
somewhere. (better makes are thinner sided than cheap ones)

Unless you have 12 sided nuts/bolts, then you do not need 12 sided
sockets (there are some odd cars/equipment which use 12 sided hardware)

On 18/02/2018 16:57, ultred ragnusen wrote:
wrote:

First question is what is the practical difference between these three 21mm
(13/16ths) "sockets" for the lug bolts on the car I was working on today?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/socket_ends.jpg
1. The standard lug wrench (green) has 6 points, each at a sharp angle.
2. The impact socket (black) has 6 points, each at a semicircular angle.
3. The standard socket (chrome) has 12 points, each at a sharp angle.

The impact socket has a radius at the points to remove the stress
concentration that would split the socket when used with impact tools.
It also contacts the nut on the strong flank and not the weak point.

That makes sense! So the rounded corners take the 'stress' off the nut and
the rounded corner also takes the stress off from the potential for a
hairline crack of the socket wall?

A full hex is better than a 12 point for nearly all uses.

I was wondering if a 12-point is "weaker" than a 6 point?
Is at 6 point stronger, weaker, or the same stress on a nut/socket as a 12
point?

You can always
rotate the socket 1/4 turn on the 1/2" drive to get 12th of a turn when
space to swing the bar is tight.

I never thought of that!
The math confused me so may I reiterate what I "think" you just said?

Am I correct in assuming you're saying that you can rotate a 12-point
socket by 1/12th, while you can only rotate a 6-point socket by 1/6th ---
but ... if you cleverly rotate /both/ the 6-point socket by 1/6th and the
half-inch socket wrench end of the socket by 1/4, you get the same effect?


yes, but it is so rarely needed it is not worth worrying about

On 18/02/2018 16:59, Robin wrote:
On 18/02/2018 16:49, ultred ragnusen wrote:
Â* wrote:

Lacking an actual torque wrench, be sure to use equal pressure on all
the nuts.Â* I use a two step process.Â* First, tighten them to just snug
using a cross pattern.Â* Then go back and tighten each one as evenly as
you can feel to tight, but don't kill them.Â* Hard to decribe but you
don't want to stand on the wrench to get them very tight.

The only way I know to "test" (but not "calibrate") a torque wrench is to
have a double-headed bolt contraption that is long enough for two sockets
to fit face to face.

Then I would put a torque wrench on each end, and lock one in a vise and
twist the other where they should both show the same torque.

That only "tests" them.
I don't know how to calibrate them because both could be wrong.
And you have to "adjust" them if they are.

Does anyone know how to calibrate a torque wrench at home?


Clamp head with handle horizontal; hang bucket of water measured
distance from head; add water until clicks; weight bucket; do sum.


or use a luggage weight scale , attach at (for example ) one foot from
the drive head of the torque wrench and pull till the wrench clicks,
read scales and see if it matches what the torque wrench is set to.
Alternately give the torque wrench to a test station for re-calibration.

On 18/02/2018 17:11, ultred ragnusen wrote:
wrote:

Second question, are these "cut marks" on a lug nut normal?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/dented_nuts.jpg

Yes, they are there from the factory.

Why? Not all nuts have this mark, and in the UK nuts with this mark are
generally used for hoses that contain inflammable gases.

I also wonder why the cuts are there, all at the same depth on the nut.

A friend I just spoke to says his car has them too, so, they're pretty
common.

If they're made at the factory, why?


possibly because they locate in the tool that puts on all the wheel nuts
at the same time.

On 18/02/2018 17:10, ultred ragnusen wrote:
wrote:

He could be referencing the special torque bars that are used by many
tire shops. They look like an extension bar, but they come in
different thicknesses and are color coded to indicate the torque which
can be applied using each one.

I just mean the right-angle simple bar extension that you have to have in
order to keep the torque wrench away from the sidewall of the tire.

You have to have an extension no matter what, because the torque wrench
hits the tire sidewall because the lug nuts are on the hub but the tire
sidewall sticks out a few inches.

Even a deep socket isn't long enough, so the least I can add by way of
extension is a deep socket plus a 2 or 3 inch extension bar (whatever I
have that is shortest).

I was asking if I used a 3 inch extension bar off the deep socket, or, if I
used a 6 inch extension bar, would it matter for the torque?

I think not - but I've heard people say use the shortest extension bar you
can get your hands on. I don't understand why. It should be the same torque
if I used a 16-inch extension bar, right?


no because some force will just be twisting the bar, Imagine a bar a
mile long, you twist one end with a known force, the other end would not
move.

On 18/02/2018 00:48, ultred ragnusen wrote:
Can you teach me more about lug bolts & related tire tools on this vehicle
whose tires I rotated today and which I plan on rotating every 4K miles (6K
km).

First question is what is the practical difference between these three 21mm
(13/16ths) "sockets" for the lug bolts on the car I was working on today?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/socket_ends.jpg
1. The standard lug wrench (green) has 6 points, each at a sharp angle.
2. The impact socket (black) has 6 points, each at a semicircular angle.
3. The standard socket (chrome) has 12 points, each at a sharp angle.

Second question, are these "cut marks" on a lug nut normal?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/dented_nuts.jpg
I always use deep sockets, which fit over the whole nut, so I know I didn't
make these marks - but what did make the marks? Are they factory original?
If so, why?

Third question is related to this combination pictu
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/torquewrench.jpg
Where this question is a combination question of:
a. Why is the green 21mm "lug wrench" so very short compared to all others?
b. What's the practical difference, if any, with respect to torquing lug
bolts to 85 foot pounds (115 N-m), between the two types of torque wrenches
shown?
c. Does anyone even use that bottom-most "auger style" ratchet bar for fast
removal anymore? (I don't have power bolt-removal tools so that's why I use
it.)
And, the most important question, for torquing lug nuts, is
d. Does the torque change depending on the length of the socket extension
bar?

Fourth question is more of an observation than a question, where I combed
the tires for rocks and nails, as I always do when I rotate the tires every
4K miles, when I saw this tiny little steel dot embedded in the rubber in
each of the front tires.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter1.jpg

That tiny dot turned out to be this funny-shaped steel sliver, pointy side
was pointing into the tire in both front tires.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter2.jpg

The question is whether these embedded rocks and splinters, of which I
always find between 50 and 100 in each tire (mostly tiny pebbles and bits
of glass stuck in the tiny sipes of the tire tread) would eventually fall
out as the rubber wears (negating the need to periodically pick them out at
each tire rotation)?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/splinter3.jpg

In summary, I ask these basic questions simply to learn more about how to
better rotate tires every 4K miles (6.5K km).


better to leave the tyres alone, rotating the position of tyres went out
of fashion about 60 years ago.

On 18/02/2018 17:18, ultred ragnusen wrote:

Since you can't use a torque wrench and a lug wrench at the same time, I
was wondering if they made it just short enough so that a normal person
could not apply "too much" torque to the lug bolts?

99.99% of car owners don't own a torque wrench. The short green wrench
is the cheapest that can be made (and to fit in with jacking tool kit)
to get someone out of trouble when they have to change of tyre in an
emergency. In many cases when the tyre has be installed from factory or
by a the retailer using (air) powered tools most people would find it
very difficult to undo the wheel nuts with that wrench. Much better to
discard it and get something with a longer handle

https://www.toolstation.com/shop/Aut...+Wrench/p93520

or

https://tinyurl.com/yag6ddqr



Basically, I was asking if it's short because that way, a normal human can
only apply about 85 foot pounds which is all they can do with that short
bar and their hands?


But don't most people jump on it using their whole body weight ?



--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 2/18/2018 11:04 AM, ultred ragnusen wrote:
wrote:

Does anyone know how to calibrate a torque wrench at home?


Clamp head with handle horizontal; hang bucket of water measured
distance from head; add water until clicks; weight bucket; do sum.

On a diagram, I see how hanging a known weight a known distance from the
head will test the torque to see if it's correct ... but ...

And I can visualize how to mechanically clamp a bolt in a vise to hang the
torque wrench on - but then - how do you calibrate the two types?


or just clamp the wrench's drive in the vise. Measure from
axis, add weight. This is simple arithmetic not rocket science.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 18/02/2018 17:49, MrCheerful wrote:
On 18/02/2018 17:11, ultred ragnusen wrote:
Â* wrote:

Second question, are these "cut marks" on a lug nut normal?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/dented_nuts.jpg

Yes, they are there from the factory.

Why? Not all nuts have this mark, and in the UK nuts with this mark are
generally used for hoses that contain inflammable gases.

I also wonder why the cuts are there, all at the same depth on the nut.

A friend I just spoke to says his car has them too, so, they're pretty
common.

If they're made at the factory, why?


possibly because they locate in the tool that puts on all the wheel nuts
at the same time.

OK - like a circlip type clip to retain the nut in the tool?

That would make sense.

On 18/02/2018 17:54, MrCheerful wrote:

better to leave the tyres alone, rotating the position of tyres went out
of fashion about 60 years ago.

Yes, in the educated world this type of nonsense has mainly disappeared
but I suspect the original poster lives in the USA where frequent tyre
rotation and 6K oil changes are promoted in order to keep the car
service industry alive - or else they have poorer quality tyres and oil.


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

In article ,
says...

wrote:

Lacking an actual torque wrench, be sure to use equal pressure on all
the nuts. I use a two step process. First, tighten them to just snug
using a cross pattern. Then go back and tighten each one as evenly as
you can feel to tight, but don't kill them. Hard to decribe but you
don't want to stand on the wrench to get them very tight.

The only way I know to "test" (but not "calibrate") a torque wrench is to
have a double-headed bolt contraption that is long enough for two sockets
to fit face to face.

Then I would put a torque wrench on each end, and lock one in a vise and
twist the other where they should both show the same torque.

That only "tests" them.
I don't know how to calibrate them because both could be wrong.
And you have to "adjust" them if they are.

Does anyone know how to calibrate a torque wrench at home?


The main thing is to have all nuts tightened the same. With in some
limits, the actual torque is not all that important as long as the wheel
does not come off,or you strip or break the bolt.

On 18/02/2018 19:49, BurfordTJustice wrote:
Really it is not needed in the UK cause of those little **** ant cans you
blokes call cars.

Real men all left the UK to a land where they could get a real car or
truck..

we sent a lot of dross to the USA

On 18/02/2018 19:46, BurfordTJustice wrote:
No need to with those little **** ant things you blokes call cars.


That must be why merkins are so keen to own English cars.

wrote:

I've heard people say use the shortest extension bar you
can get your hands on. I don't understand why. It should be the same torque
if I used a 16-inch extension bar, right?


no because some force will just be twisting the bar, Imagine a bar a
mile long, you twist one end with a known force, the other end would not
move.

That makes too much sense for Usenet!

I guess there are two faults with a 20" extension bar that a 2" extenstion
bar wouldh't have then.

1. Some of the measured torque is wasted in twisting the bar, and,
2. Any extension bar not at 90 degrees to the nut also changes the torque.

Both effects are probably slight - but perhaps measurable?