On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 09:06:24 -0800, ultred ragnusen
wrote:

wrote:

If you are using chrome lug nuts with sharp corners a 12 point
probably works fine but if you are talking about garden variety
factory lug nuts that have "been around" a while, a 12 point is a lot
more likely to just round them off than a 6 point. Have you ever seen
a tire store using 12 point sockets on lug nuts?

That's what I was wondering but I didn't know why.

Does a 12-point tend to round nuts more than a 6 point?

Why?

Is it because there's more force against the nut's point?

Give the lad a gold star!!!!

On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 22:40:45 -0800, ultred ragnusen
wrote:

wrote:

The clicker is easier to use, the bar style may actually be more
accurate if the clicker was not calibrated recently.

I don't know how to "calibrate" a torque wrench at home.
Do you?
You can't. You can check it but you don't have or want ior need the
equipment to adjust the calibration.

Don't get started on the "doing it myself I will do a better job than
????" crap either!!!!

On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 08:49:51 -0800, ultred ragnusen
wrote:

wrote:

Lacking an actual torque wrench, be sure to use equal pressure on all
the nuts. I use a two step process. First, tighten them to just snug
using a cross pattern. Then go back and tighten each one as evenly as
you can feel to tight, but don't kill them. Hard to decribe but you
don't want to stand on the wrench to get them very tight.

The only way I know to "test" (but not "calibrate") a torque wrench is to
have a double-headed bolt contraption that is long enough for two sockets
to fit face to face.

Then I would put a torque wrench on each end, and lock one in a vise and
twist the other where they should both show the same torque.

That only "tests" them.
I don't know how to calibrate them because both could be wrong.
And you have to "adjust" them if they are.

Does anyone know how to calibrate a torque wrench at home?
Clamp the square end in a vice and hang a known weight on the handle
exactly one foot from the center of the square. Or use 18 inches or 2
feet and adjust the math.

On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 09:04:19 -0800, ultred ragnusen
wrote:

wrote:

Does anyone know how to calibrate a torque wrench at home?


Clamp head with handle horizontal; hang bucket of water measured
distance from head; add water until clicks; weight bucket; do sum.

On a diagram, I see how hanging a known weight a known distance from the
head will test the torque to see if it's correct ... but ...

And I can visualize how to mechanically clamp a bolt in a vise to hang the
torque wrench on - but then - how do you calibrate the two types?
Basically YOU can't. a beam type cannot be "calibrated" as the
flexibility of the torque arm is a function of the alloy, heat
tratment, and dimensions of the beam.
The spring tension an a "clicker" can be adjusted in various ways,
depending on the manufacturer/model. Someuse shims. Some use a simple
allen screw in the end. Some use a set of wedges, and some cannot be
recalibrated, period.

On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 17:47:26 +0000, MrCheerful
wrote:

On 18/02/2018 16:59, Robin wrote:
On 18/02/2018 16:49, ultred ragnusen wrote:
* wrote:

Lacking an actual torque wrench, be sure to use equal pressure on all
the nuts.* I use a two step process.* First, tighten them to just snug
using a cross pattern.* Then go back and tighten each one as evenly as
you can feel to tight, but don't kill them.* Hard to decribe but you
don't want to stand on the wrench to get them very tight.

The only way I know to "test" (but not "calibrate") a torque wrench is to
have a double-headed bolt contraption that is long enough for two sockets
to fit face to face.

Then I would put a torque wrench on each end, and lock one in a vise and
twist the other where they should both show the same torque.

That only "tests" them.
I don't know how to calibrate them because both could be wrong.
And you have to "adjust" them if they are.

Does anyone know how to calibrate a torque wrench at home?


Clamp head with handle horizontal; hang bucket of water measured
distance from head; add water until clicks; weight bucket; do sum.


or use a luggage weight scale , attach at (for example ) one foot from
the drive head of the torque wrench and pull till the wrench clicks,
read scales and see if it matches what the torque wrench is set to.
Alternately give the torque wrench to a test station for re-calibration.


Get out another gold star!!!!

Then just HOPE they have the equipment rwequired to calibrate it. I
sent in my 35 year old Snap-On clicker for calibration and they
returned it saying "too old - we don't have the equipment for that one
any more"

On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 14:54:03 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

wrote:

Lacking an actual torque wrench, be sure to use equal pressure on all
the nuts. I use a two step process. First, tighten them to just snug
using a cross pattern. Then go back and tighten each one as evenly as
you can feel to tight, but don't kill them. Hard to decribe but you
don't want to stand on the wrench to get them very tight.

The only way I know to "test" (but not "calibrate") a torque wrench is to
have a double-headed bolt contraption that is long enough for two sockets
to fit face to face.

Then I would put a torque wrench on each end, and lock one in a vise and
twist the other where they should both show the same torque.

That only "tests" them.
I don't know how to calibrate them because both could be wrong.
And you have to "adjust" them if they are.

Does anyone know how to calibrate a torque wrench at home?


The main thing is to have all nuts tightened the same. With in some
limits, the actual torque is not all that important as long as the wheel
does not come off,or you strip or break the bolt.


Or distort either the rim or the flange - - - -

On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 13:41:43 +0000 (UTC), "Dove Tail"
wrote:

trader_4 wrote:

Not clear what he means by socket extension bar. If he means a socket
extension that goes into the socket which a breaker bar then goes to,
I agree, the answer is no. But if he means a different length breaker
bar, the answer obviously is yes.

He could be referencing the special torque bars that are used by many
tire shops. They look like an extension bar, but they come in
different thicknesses and are color coded to indicate the torque which
can be applied using each one.

See: Astro 78810 10-Piece Torque Limiting Extension Set - Torque
Wrenches - Amazon.com http://tinyurl.com/y8aofhfu
ANd they are ONLY effective with an impact wrench - and it still
requires at least half a brain. They are NOT a replacement for a
torque wrench.

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 18 Feb 2018 17:42:55 +0000, MrCheerful
wrote:

On 18/02/2018 17:00, ultred ragnusen wrote:
wrote:

First question is what is the practical difference between these three 21mm
(13/16ths) "sockets" for the lug bolts on the car I was working on today?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/socket_ends.jpg
1. The standard lug wrench (green) has 6 points, each at a sharp angle.
2. The impact socket (black) has 6 points, each at a semicircular angle.
3. The standard socket (chrome) has 12 points, each at a sharp angle.

The impact socket is superior for that application - whether using an
impact driver or not. A 12 point socket is better in situations where
fine motion is required.

This is good to know that the impact socket is superior, probably for two
reasons, right?
1. It has those radius corners (someone said it reduces stress on both the
nuts and the socket itself).
2. It is stronger overall (presumably)

Since there is always a drawback, I think the drawback might be:
3. They're "fatter" it seems, than my normal sockets
4. They don't seem to come in 12-point sizes (at least mine aren't)


I use single hex impact sockets for 99.9 percent of jobs, there are
practically speaking no occasions when they are too fat to get
somewhere. (better makes are thinner sided than cheap ones)

Unless you have 12 sided nuts/bolts, then you do not need 12 sided
sockets (there are some odd cars/equipment which use 12 sided hardware)

I think the only time I ever saw that was on the fuel pump bolts on a
'67 Pontiac. I wondered why there of all places.

On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 09:10:01 -0800, ultred ragnusen
wrote:

wrote:

He could be referencing the special torque bars that are used by many
tire shops. They look like an extension bar, but they come in
different thicknesses and are color coded to indicate the torque which
can be applied using each one.

I just mean the right-angle simple bar extension that you have to have in
order to keep the torque wrench away from the sidewall of the tire.

You have to have an extension no matter what, because the torque wrench
hits the tire sidewall because the lug nuts are on the hub but the tire
sidewall sticks out a few inches.


That is where a deep socket comes in handy

Even a deep socket isn't long enough, so the least I can add by way of
extension is a deep socket plus a 2 or 3 inch extension bar (whatever I
have that is shortest).

Depends on the vehicle/rim.

I was asking if I used a 3 inch extension bar off the deep socket, or, if I
used a 6 inch extension bar, would it matter for the torque?

I think not - but I've heard people say use the shortest extension bar you
can get your hands on. I don't understand why. It should be the same torque
if I used a 16-inch extension bar, right?


No difference in torque, but a short offset makes it less likely you
will end up going "off square" from the nut

On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 17:52:28 +0000, MrCheerful
wrote:

On 18/02/2018 17:10, ultred ragnusen wrote:
wrote:

He could be referencing the special torque bars that are used by many
tire shops. They look like an extension bar, but they come in
different thicknesses and are color coded to indicate the torque which
can be applied using each one.

I just mean the right-angle simple bar extension that you have to have in
order to keep the torque wrench away from the sidewall of the tire.

You have to have an extension no matter what, because the torque wrench
hits the tire sidewall because the lug nuts are on the hub but the tire
sidewall sticks out a few inches.

Even a deep socket isn't long enough, so the least I can add by way of
extension is a deep socket plus a 2 or 3 inch extension bar (whatever I
have that is shortest).

I was asking if I used a 3 inch extension bar off the deep socket, or, if I
used a 6 inch extension bar, would it matter for the torque?

I think not - but I've heard people say use the shortest extension bar you
can get your hands on. I don't understand why. It should be the same torque
if I used a 16-inch extension bar, right?


no because some force will just be twisting the bar, Imagine a bar a
mile long, you twist one end with a known force, the other end would not
move.
Which would have an effect if you used too small extention (like 1/4
inch) - at the torques we are working with, and a 1/2 inch extention,
a 3 foot extention would not have a measurable effect.

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 18 Feb 2018 17:52:28 +0000, MrCheerful
wrote:

On 18/02/2018 17:10, ultred ragnusen wrote:
wrote:

He could be referencing the special torque bars that are used by many
tire shops. They look like an extension bar, but they come in
different thicknesses and are color coded to indicate the torque which
can be applied using each one.

I just mean the right-angle simple bar extension that you have to have in
order to keep the torque wrench away from the sidewall of the tire.

You have to have an extension no matter what, because the torque wrench
hits the tire sidewall because the lug nuts are on the hub but the tire
sidewall sticks out a few inches.

Even a deep socket isn't long enough, so the least I can add by way of
extension is a deep socket plus a 2 or 3 inch extension bar (whatever I
have that is shortest).

I was asking if I used a 3 inch extension bar off the deep socket, or, if I
used a 6 inch extension bar, would it matter for the torque?

I think not - but I've heard people say use the shortest extension bar you
can get your hands on. I don't understand why. It should be the same torque
if I used a 16-inch extension bar, right?


no because some force will just be twisting the bar, Imagine a bar a
mile long, you twist one end with a known force, the other end would not
move.

But the extension is not a mile long and anything lost in twisting a 10"
extension is too small to measure. However if you have the extension so
it's tipped a little, not in line with the axis of the nut/bolt, then
some torque is not in the direction of turning the nut, and the longer
the extension, the more is lost. This happens when the socket is loose
on the nut, not especially lug nuts.

On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 13:29:26 -0800, ultred ragnusen
wrote:

wrote:

These telescopic bars have a normal 1/2 inch square drive that any 1/2
drive socket can fit into. You don't have to use the socket it comes with.

Oh. Thanks. That's good because any decent toolbox has a set of 1/4", 3/8",
and 1/2" metric and SAE sockets.

Hmmmm... I just realized that those socket sizes are in SAE units, and not
in metric units.

Do the 4-sided openings in European sockets conform to the same standard
1/4", 3/8", and 1/2" sizes we use in America? Or do the Europeans use a
metric sized drive square?

It's not a torque wrench - its just a wrench with a telescopic handle
that is at least twice as long as that which normally comes with the car
kit. It gives you much more leverage when trying to free the nut. It's
the same principle of adding a scaffolding over over an existing wrench
bar to make it longer.

Oh. I see. Yes. We all have used a pipe in times of need, to extend our
leverage. Most of us have pretty long "breaker bars" though, which is what
I would use if I needed the torque to remove a bolt.

It must be a clever internal mechanism that calculates the torque correctly
when you can change the distance along the lever!

It you added an extension tube to the end of a normal click type torque
wrench to make the handle twice as long and you applied your pressure to
the end this extension wouldn't the torque wrench still click at the
correct torque?

It would as long as the only point of that loosely fitting extension tube
touching the torque wrench were at the place that you would have put your
hand on the torque wrench.

I guess if you put a tightly fitting extension tube over the torque wrench
of a length that doubles the torque wrench length, then you'd get a
"reading" of (half? double?) on the torque wrench.

Let me think about that.... (would it be double or half?).

Upon a few moments of circumspection, I'm not sure, but I think you'd get a
reading that is half what it actually is??????


AS usual you are overthinking things. The reading would not change.

On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 14:25:08 -0800, ultred ragnusen
wrote:

wrote:

Do the 4-sided openings in European sockets conform to the same standard
1/4", 3/8", and 1/2" sizes we use in America? Or do the Europeans use a
metric sized drive square?

Yep, standard 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2 square drives which can be used with both
imperial and metric hex/12 point sockets.

That's strange that Europeans use a half-metric half-what-you-call-Imperial
standard of units.

To us, Imperial is a strange word, where it often means Imperial Japan or
Imperial British (meaning before WWII in our vernacular), but we never use
the word "imperial" in terms of measurement units (at least I don't).

I have seen "imperial gallons" where I have to ask what they are, since we
just have gallons and liters and nothing else (similarly with regular tons
and long tons I guess).

I guess, since the US is anything but imperial, that the term must be so
old as to predate the SAE, and to relate to Imperial British units?

Let me think about that.... (would it be double or half?).


You can place you hands on any part of a click type torque wrench to get
it to work correctly.


I thought all torque wrenches needed your hand in a certain given spot?

Nope. On SOME simple beam types that was true (they had a "pivoting"
handle)


Upon a few moments of circumspection, I'm not sure, but I think you'd
get a
reading that is half what it actually is??????


No, the end of the torque wrench would move exactly the same distance.
The end of the extension would move by twice the distance as the end of
the torque wrench.

OK. I'm confused because I have a dial-type wrench which has a pin which
certainly is to prevent you from putting force at any other point for this
reason alone....
If youhave a pivoted handle, you are correct. Not a common design
(at least not any more in North America - Canada specifically)

On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 19:26:16 -0600, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 2/18/18 7:00 PM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Dean Hoffman wrote:
The only British car I see in the mid USA is the Mini.

Wot - no Range Rovers? Jaguars? Nissans?

Shucks. I forgot. I actually know someone who has a Range Rover.
There was a Jag convertible around for awhile but I haven't seen it
for years.
Nissans are Japanese, Mexican, or American made at least for the North
American market.


Isn't Range Rover owned by the Germans now??(BMW)

ANd Jag by the Indians (Tata)?

Still, the market for both is pretty limitted in North America -
mostly in California -the" land of fruits and nuts" - mostly rich
yuippies.

Nissan (or renault or now also Mitso-****ty) vehicles in North America
don't come from Brittan - and are technically Japanese and French -

On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 17:07:24 -0600, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 2/18/18 4:48 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/18/2018 4:38 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 2/18/18 4:25 PM, ultred ragnusen wrote:

I thought all torque wrenches needed your hand in a
certain given
spot?

****** They measure torque at the head of the wrench, not
the end of the handle.
Take a wrench with a 2 foot handle.* Say it takes 50 pounds
of force at
the end of the handle* to loosen a nut.** Take a wrench with
a 4 foot handle.
It will take 25 pounds of force at the end of the that one's
handle to loosen
the same nut.** That's why cheater pipes work.


Classic beam scale torque wrenches do indeed rely on a single point load
which is why the handle has a pivot pin. Your comments are correct for
click wrenches.

I don't get the why if this is what you mean by beam scale
torque wrench.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Presa-1-4-in-Drive-0-in-to-80-in-lbs-Beam-Style-Torque-Wrench-CP31006/206975714
or http://alturl.com/wsjx3
That's the beam wrench, and it is to make sure you don't "torque"
the handle - that you only pull tangential toi the beam

On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 00:38:25 +0000, alan_m
wrote:

On 19/02/2018 00:23, ultred ragnusen wrote:
wrote:

That's strange that Europeans use a half-metric half-what-you-call-Imperial
standard of units.

Not necessarily the rest of Europe but the UK.

Do the Germans and French also use "inch" sizes for their ratchets?

I believe it's an international standard with no metric equivalents for
the "drive" side of sockets.
It's an accepted international standard - but there ARE others -
including hex drive inch and metric, as well as hex "through" sockets
with inch or metric, and likely half a dozen or more other "odball"
configurations.

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 19 Feb 2018 01:08:08 +0000 (GMT), "Dave
Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
Sanity Clause wrote:
Back to the actual question: 3-inch extension keeps you close to the
nut, unlikely to twist sideways and fall off. 16-inch extension has the
possibility of pulling the socket out of alignment, maybe rounding off
the nut, and scraping your knuckles (and your shiny new wrench) on the
ground, UNLESS you properly support the wrench at the head end to keep
it straight.

If you have a spare jack, place it under the extension bar to reduce
sideways load on the socket. You can then use your full body weight on the
breaker bar with less chance of breaking the tools.

Good idea.

I left my car sitting for a month after I had surgery, and one wheel had
no cover. And snow covered up to the top bolt for most of the month.

Months later, I was at Newark Airport and when I got back to the car, it
had a flat tire. I had the jack handle/lug wrench, and the bolts were
rusted on so tight I had to stand on the wrench to loosen them, I even
had to lift my body up and down on a couple, and I broke off 3.

What to do? Leave the car there, have it towed to a shop, take public
transportation back to NYC and then to Brooklyn, then take public
transportation back the next day, or drive home.

Of course, i drove.

Tire was on the left rear,and every time I turned right it went clop,
clop, clop. When I turned left or went straight, it was quiet.

Drove on Route 1 -- fairly quiet because most people on the Turnpike --
to the Holland Tunnel. What to do? If you break down in the Holland
Tunnel, you delay traffic when it's heavy (This was Sunday evening, when
everyone is coming back from the weekend) so they keep a tow truck there
all the time. But they charge you a 100 or 200 in the 1970's which
would be at least 500 now. Still, it had worked well so I took the
tunnel. Turned east on a small street towards the Brooklyn Bridge and
just as I got to Broadway, big thump. Got out. Wheel has come off the
car. Last two lug nuts had broken. What to do?

Almost no cars Sunday night, but Monday morning it's lower Manhattan
rush hour. Cars everywhere. Not allowed to park on the narrow street I
was on. Scouted ahead and found a parking lot a short block North up
Broadway, which is one-way South.

Jacked up the car, put it on on the brake drum with no bolts. Lowered
the car and drove. Got 8 feet!! Hey, that's pretty good, but then the
wheel fell off. Jacked up the car, put it on on the brake drum with no
bolts. Lowered the car and drove. Didn't make it 2 inches. Wheel fell
off. Jacked up the car, put it on on the brake drum with no bolts.
Lowered the car and drove. This time it went 40 feet to Broadway,
turned left (the good direction) 100 fett up Broadway, left across the
curb and sidewalk into the parking lot. All in one shot. The wheel
fell off just as I got fully inside the parking lot.

Took the subway home and returned the next day with tools to punch out
the broken lug nuts, and new lugnuts. Took 45 minutes. Done by 10AM.
Parking lot guy wanted to charge me for 3 spaces because I was parked
sideways, but he caved easily when I said it was only 10 and he'd fill
the spaces, and he only charged me 1.5 times the daily rate. (His point
was that the lot filled up by 9, but I guess I was right that some
people came later.)

On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 13:09:08 -0800, ultred ragnusen
wrote:

wrote:

better to leave the tyres alone, rotating the position of tyres went out
of fashion about 60 years ago.

I realize all the responses (so far) to this post were trolls or jokes, but
if you were actually serious, please do read my explanation below of what I
feel is the inherent value in rotating tires periodically.

In my case, the suspension is aligned (caster, camber, and toe anyway), and
tires are selected, mounted, and balanced (statically), and pressurized,
and repaired (from the inside with a patchplug), and rotated by me, so
everything about those tires is up to me, and not to a mechanic who is paid
by the hour who might skip some of the steps that I do (see below) to save
time.

Of course, I can only meticulously statically balance the wheel-and-tire
assembly, but the dynamic-balance test of driving at speeds shows no
dynamic imbalance that can be felt by the driver.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/...ic_balance.jpg

Given the well-aligned vehicle is driven daily on mountainous hilly steep
very windy roads, including a mandatory K-turn daily, the fronts inevitably
develop a unidirectional feathering that can be barely felt by the hand
which is palpable consistently at around 4K miles.
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/attac...828_100512.jpg

I was ALMOST certain we were dealing with the same Looney under a
different name - now I KNOW it - and way back then I gave a solution
to the accellerated wear you were bitching and complaining about. AIR
UP YOUR TIRES!!!! Rotating your tires does not reduce the wear - it
just distributes it. A bit more air in the tire will keep it from
squirming/leaning/feathering. So will using a tire better suited to
your bob-sled-run twisty downhill roads.

Since the spare is a different brand, I rotate in the classic four-wheel
II-X-II-X pattern that puts each tire at each of the four corners over a
period of 12K miles (about 8 to 10 months of driving) - and - when I rotate
- I inspect the entire carcass for pebbles & shards as shown here from this
weekend.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/18/splinter1.jpg

To overcome some of the boredom of plucking detritus out of the tread, I
count the objects removed, where there are always more than 50 per tire, so
I try to approach a count of 100 objects removed, some of which turn out to
be this (staple?) shard I found yesterday.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/18/splinter2.jpg

While you intimate that the periodic inspection and rotation of tires has
"gone out of style", my reasonably logical position is that the selection,
mounting, balancing, pressurizing, inspection, repair, and rotation of
tires is a reasonable and rational act that results in increased safety and
life of the tires - partly because removing something like this shard never
goes out of style!
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/18/splinter3.jpg


Damned engineers - - -

On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 21:46:10 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 19 Feb 2018 01:08:08 +0000 (GMT), "Dave
Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
Sanity Clause wrote:
Back to the actual question: 3-inch extension keeps you close to the
nut, unlikely to twist sideways and fall off. 16-inch extension has the
possibility of pulling the socket out of alignment, maybe rounding off
the nut, and scraping your knuckles (and your shiny new wrench) on the
ground, UNLESS you properly support the wrench at the head end to keep
it straight.

If you have a spare jack, place it under the extension bar to reduce
sideways load on the socket. You can then use your full body weight on the
breaker bar with less chance of breaking the tools.

Good idea.

I left my car sitting for a month after I had surgery, and one wheel had
no cover. And snow covered up to the top bolt for most of the month.

Months later, I was at Newark Airport and when I got back to the car, it
had a flat tire. I had the jack handle/lug wrench, and the bolts were
rusted on so tight I had to stand on the wrench to loosen them, I even
had to lift my body up and down on a couple, and I broke off 3.

What to do? Leave the car there, have it towed to a shop, take public
transportation back to NYC and then to Brooklyn, then take public
transportation back the next day, or drive home.

Of course, i drove.

Tire was on the left rear,and every time I turned right it went clop,
clop, clop. When I turned left or went straight, it was quiet.

Drove on Route 1 -- fairly quiet because most people on the Turnpike --
to the Holland Tunnel. What to do? If you break down in the Holland
Tunnel, you delay traffic when it's heavy (This was Sunday evening, when
everyone is coming back from the weekend) so they keep a tow truck there
all the time. But they charge you a 100 or 200 in the 1970's which
would be at least 500 now. Still, it had worked well so I took the
tunnel. Turned east on a small street towards the Brooklyn Bridge and
just as I got to Broadway, big thump. Got out. Wheel has come off the
car. Last two lug nuts had broken. What to do?

Almost no cars Sunday night, but Monday morning it's lower Manhattan
rush hour. Cars everywhere. Not allowed to park on the narrow street I
was on. Scouted ahead and found a parking lot a short block North up
Broadway, which is one-way South.

Jacked up the car, put it on on the brake drum with no bolts. Lowered
the car and drove. Got 8 feet!! Hey, that's pretty good, but then the
wheel fell off. Jacked up the car, put it on on the brake drum with no
bolts. Lowered the car and drove. Didn't make it 2 inches. Wheel fell
off. Jacked up the car, put it on on the brake drum with no bolts.
Lowered the car and drove. This time it went 40 feet to Broadway,
turned left (the good direction) 100 fett up Broadway, left across the
curb and sidewalk into the parking lot. All in one shot. The wheel
fell off just as I got fully inside the parking lot.

Took the subway home and returned the next day with tools to punch out
the broken lug nuts, and new lugnuts. Took 45 minutes. Done by 10AM.
Parking lot guy wanted to charge me for 3 spaces because I was parked
sideways, but he caved easily when I said it was only 10 and he'd fill
the spaces, and he only charged me 1.5 times the daily rate. (His point
was that the lot filled up by 9, but I guess I was right that some
people came later.)



Didn't even need to look at the header to see who wrote tis one!!!!

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 18 Feb 2018 09:18:12 -0800, ultred ragnusen
wrote:

wrote:

Third question is related to this combination pictu
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/torquewrench.jpg
Where this question is a combination question of:
a. Why is the green 21mm "lug wrench" so very short compared to all others?
To fit in the hole they store the tools in.

I can't disagree that the shape and length of a purposeful "lug wrench" is
designed just for removing lug nuts, so certainly that's why it's curved
the way it is (to fit around the tire sidewall).

Certainly smaller is easier to fit in a car.

Since you can't use a torque wrench and a lug wrench at the same time, I
was wondering if they made it just short enough so that a normal person
could not apply "too much" torque to the lug bolts?

Basically, I was asking if it's short because that way, a normal human can
only apply about 85 foot pounds which is all they can do with that short
bar and their hands?

Is that just an urban myth?

I've never heard it and I don't think it's true.

It's a multipurpose tool. The tapered end is for removing hubcaps and
wheel covers, and the length is determined by what works for a jack
handle, on the millions of cars which have used this wrench as the
bumper jack handle. If they made it longer, and didn't use a stronger
grade of steel, one could bend it by standing on it. Indeed, I did bend
one that way, and that was when I weighed 170. If it was longer, a lot
of them would end up bent. Once they're bent, they're never as strong
again.

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 18 Feb 2018 17:58:43 +0000, alan_m
wrote:

On 18/02/2018 17:18, ultred ragnusen wrote:

Since you can't use a torque wrench and a lug wrench at the same time, I
was wondering if they made it just short enough so that a normal person
could not apply "too much" torque to the lug bolts?

99.99% of car owners don't own a torque wrench. The short green wrench
is the cheapest that can be made (and to fit in with jacking tool kit)
to get someone out of trouble when they have to change of tyre in an
emergency. In many cases when the tyre has be installed from factory or
by a the retailer using (air) powered tools most people would find it
very difficult to undo the wheel nuts with that wrench. Much better to
discard it and get something with a longer handle

https://www.toolstation.com/shop/Aut...+Wrench/p93520

or

https://tinyurl.com/yag6ddqr



Basically, I was asking if it's short because that way, a normal human can
only apply about 85 foot pounds which is all they can do with that short
bar and their hands?


But don't most people jump on it using their whole body weight ?

Apparently most people don't even change their own tires, if you figure
that 90% of women don't and that's 45% of drivers. Plus what, 10, 20,
30% of men. Of those who do, most don't even think of standing on it,
or, I suspect, are afraid to do so.

Of course there are very few flats these days so getting good data is
harder.

wrote:

No difference in torque, but a short offset makes it less likely you
will end up going "off square" from the nut

That makes too much sense!

Given that we're talking 85 foot pounds, being off square a little bit
"probably" wouldn't matter anyway.

wrote:

If youhave a pivoted handle, you are correct. Not a common design
(at least not any more in North America - Canada specifically)

You'll note that I have both a beam style (Craftsman, circa 1980s') and a
newer Pittsburgh 1/2 inch drive torque wrench in my original photo where
the beam style has a pivoting handle.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/torquewrench.jpg

wrote:

way back then I gave a solution
to the accellerated wear you were bitching and complaining about. AIR
UP YOUR TIRES!!!!

The door sticker says 29psi, where I've been running 40 psi consistently
for a very long time.

Rotating your tires does not reduce the wear - it
just distributes it.

This is a good distinction that the wear will happen no matter what, but,
by distributing it among the 4 tires, the tires should last longer, don't
you think?

A bit more air in the tire will keep it from
squirming/leaning/feathering. So will using a tire better suited to
your bob-sled-run twisty downhill roads.

These tires are the stock size and load rating. The only thing different is
that I'm running 40 psi instead of 29 psi.

Damned engineers - - -

I'm an electrical engineer - but this has nothing to do with that.

wrote:

Given that we're talking 85 foot pounds, being off square a little bit
"probably" wouldn't matter anyway.

This video debunks the myth.
https://youtu.be/wNcCwdtfcOU?t=49

wrote:

certainly, but there is no need for such precision in this application.

This video tested a ten foot extension with the torque wrench.
https://youtu.be/wNcCwdtfcOU?t=413

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 18 Feb 2018 20:18:56 -0800, ultred ragnusen
wrote:

wrote:
Ulfred wrote:
Given that we're talking 85 foot pounds, being off square a little bit
"probably" wouldn't matter anyway.

This video debunks the myth.
https://youtu.be/wNcCwdtfcOU?t=49


Are you saying you're debunking your own previous post?

The guy in the video says that a wobbly extension will throw off your
torque reading [if you're not directly above the nut, which is likely
with a wobble and the whole point of using a wobble] "Have to stay on
axis. If you do get off center, that will throw off your readings"

On 18-Feb-18 5:42 PM, MrCheerful wrote:
On 18/02/2018 17:00, ultred ragnusen wrote:
Â* wrote:

First question is what is the practical difference between these
three 21mm
(13/16ths) "sockets" for the lug bolts on the car I was working on
today?
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/17/socket_ends.jpg
1. The standard lug wrench (green) has 6 points, each at a sharp angle.
2. The impact socket (black) has 6 points, each at a semicircular
angle.
3. The standard socket (chrome) has 12 points, each at a sharp angle.

The impact socket is superior for that application - whether using an
impact driver or not. A 12 point socket is better in situations where
fine motion is required.

This is good to know that the impact socket is superior, probably for two
reasons, right?
1. It has those radius corners (someone said it reduces stress on both
the
nuts and the socket itself).
2. It is stronger overall (presumably)

Since there is always a drawback, I think the drawback might be:
3. They're "fatter" it seems, than my normal sockets
4. They don't seem to come in 12-point sizes (at least mine aren't)


I use single hex impact sockets for 99.9 percent of jobs, there are
practically speaking no occasions when they are too fat to get
somewhere. (better makes are thinner sided than cheap ones)

Unless you have 12 sided nuts/bolts, then you do not need 12 sided
sockets (there are some odd cars/equipment which use 12 sided hardware)

Garrett turbocharger compressor nuts are bi-hex (and cack handed). I had
to special order a 8mm bi-hex 1/4 drive socket as it's not a stock item.
You won't find bi-hex 1/4 drive sockets even in "pro" socket sets.

All nuts/bolts used by a Derby based jet engine maker are bi-hex flange
nuts/bolts. They are much lighter (and unbelievably expensive when made
from aero grade nickel alloy) as the bi-hex size is at least a size
smaller - there are 12 points to drive it so it's stronger.

On 19-Feb-18 1:00 AM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Dean Hoffman wrote:
The only British car I see in the mid USA is the Mini.

Wot - no Range Rovers? Jaguars? Nissans?


None of which are British.

Range Rover and Jaguar are now JLR and owned by Indian steel firm TATA.

Nissan never were British, Japanese forever. Nissan built their
reputation on British and German engineering using an American
production system that the Americans refused to use. The OHV "A" series
engine that powered the Cherry and Sunny though the 60's and 70's was
derived from a licensed copy of the BMC "A" series engine (original
Mini). The SOHC "L" (also bottom end of "KA" and "Z") series engines
that powered 510/710/810/910/Violet/Bluebirds/Zeds was a licensed copy
of a Mercedes 6 cylinder design (had 2 cylinders lopped off for 4 pot
versions). Both had been improved to the extent that the fee was no
longer payable.

Yes new Q30's are being made in Sunderland, UK.

ultred ragnusen wrote:
wrote:

That's strange that Europeans use a half-metric half-what-you-call-Imperial
standard of units.

Not necessarily the rest of Europe but the UK.

Do the Germans and French also use "inch" sizes for their ratchets?


The French at least have a word for "inch" which translates as "thumb"
and is a colloquial measure of length. They also have a word for "foot"
which would be recognised as a length.

There are lots of other historical French units, some of which are still
used in particular applications in (UK) English such as printing (e.g.
points).

--
Graham J

On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 01:55:28 +0000, Fredxx, the resident smartass,
smartassed again:

You felt personally addressed when "gay ******" was mentioned? Obviously
RIGHTLY so, you smartass who can never hold back his gay fantasies! BG

I didn't feel addressed,

Of course you did! You ALWAYS do, whenever the gay ****** gets abused! Go
figure, you gay smartass! G

and I don't feel the need to dribble over PHucker's every post.

Come on, you are as gay as him! Your constant standing up for the gay ******
and your constant gay fantasies do give you away!

Remember, gay smartass: you, TOO, claimed to have "killfiled" me! ROTFLOL

Unfortunately not in uk.rec.cars.maintenance but is easily remedied.

And the cowardly gay smartass quickly hides behind his pretend killfile
again, just like gay ****** Birdbrain keeps doing! You and Birdbrain indeed
ARE a pair! LMAO!

On 19/02/2018 03:34, micky wrote:

Of course there are very few flats these days so getting good data is
harder.


I was talking to someone recently who is in the car rescue / roadside
assistance business and he was saying that one of the growing problems
he sees is that cars come without spare tyres and an increasing number
of call outs are to people where the tyre cannot be repaired with a can
of squirty gunk and there is no spare in the vehicle.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 2/18/18 9:44 PM, ultred ragnusen wrote:
wrote:

way back then I gave a solution
to the accellerated wear you were bitching and complaining about. AIR
UP YOUR TIRES!!!!

The door sticker says 29psi, where I've been running 40 psi consistently
for a very long time.

Rotating your tires does not reduce the wear - it
just distributes it.

This is a good distinction that the wear will happen no matter what, but,
by distributing it among the 4 tires, the tires should last longer, don't
you think?

A bit more air in the tire will keep it from
squirming/leaning/feathering. So will using a tire better suited to
your bob-sled-run twisty downhill roads.

These tires are the stock size and load rating. The only thing different is
that I'm running 40 psi instead of 29 psi.

Damned engineers - - -

I'm an electrical engineer - but this has nothing to do with that.

Maybe it does in the sense that you want things down to the gnat's
ass.
Good enough for what it's for is a common measure in my world. I've
changed a few tires over the years and never had a torque wrench. None
has ever fallen off or the rim wallowed out.
There was a time when someone changing a flat was a common sight.
Tires would last about 20,000 miles.

In article ,
Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 2/18/18 7:00 PM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Dean Hoffman wrote:
The only British car I see in the mid USA is the Mini.

Wot - no Range Rovers? Jaguars? Nissans?

Shucks. I forgot. I actually know someone who has a Range Rover.
There was a Jag convertible around for awhile but I haven't seen it
for years.

Most Jaguars built ain't convertibles.

Nissans are Japanese, Mexican, or American made at least for the North
American market.


According to Nissan UK, the US is their second largest export market after
the EU.

--
*I don't believe in astrology. I am a Sagittarius and we're very skeptical.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Peter Hill wrote:
On 19-Feb-18 1:00 AM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Dean Hoffman wrote:
The only British car I see in the mid USA is the Mini.

Wot - no Range Rovers? Jaguars? Nissans?


None of which are British.

Nor is the Mini - BMW owned.

But I doubt the OP is referring to ownership, given how many US brands
ain't wholly owned by the US. I'd guess he is referring to where they are
assembled. But even then various parts can come from factories anywhere.

Range Rover and Jaguar are now JLR and owned by Indian steel firm TATA.

Nissan never were British, Japanese forever. Nissan built their
reputation on British and German engineering using an American
production system that the Americans refused to use. The OHV "A" series
engine that powered the Cherry and Sunny though the 60's and 70's was
derived from a licensed copy of the BMC "A" series engine (original
Mini).

Actually first saw the light of day in 1947 in the Austin A30. Must have
been one of the longest production runs of any basic engine.


The SOHC "L" (also bottom end of "KA" and "Z") series engines
that powered 510/710/810/910/Violet/Bluebirds/Zeds was a licensed copy
of a Mercedes 6 cylinder design (had 2 cylinders lopped off for 4 pot
versions). Both had been improved to the extent that the fee was no
longer payable.

Yes new Q30's are being made in Sunderland, UK.

Nissan UK says the US is its second largest export market for UK assembled
models. After the EU.

--
*Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 00:44:43 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Sun, 18 Feb 2018 20:18:56 -0800, ultred ragnusen
wrote:

wrote:
Ulfred wrote:
Given that we're talking 85 foot pounds, being off square a little bit
"probably" wouldn't matter anyway.

This video debunks the myth.
https://youtu.be/wNcCwdtfcOU?t=49


Are you saying you're debunking your own previous post?

The guy in the video says that a wobbly extension will throw off your
torque reading [if you're not directly above the nut, which is likely
with a wobble and the whole point of using a wobble] "Have to stay on
axis. If you do get off center, that will throw off your readings"
the "wobble" or a flex joint allow you to be "off axis" without
making the socket "bind" on the nut, which is what throws the torque
off when you are "off axis"

On 19/02/2018 18:49, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:


the EU will soon be gone, and good ****ing riddance.


Long live the bureaucracy of un-elected EU technocrats!

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 2/18/2018 2:40 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 21:29:24 -0000, Mr Pounder Esquire
wrote:

James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 21:17:55 -0000, ultred ragnusen
wrote:
*wrote:

No need to with those little **** ant things you blokes call cars.


That must be why merkins are so keen to own English cars.

I'm not sure who is trolling and who is joking as rotating and
inspecting tires is a natural thing that you do on most vehicles
simply because fronts wear differently than rears, and crowns affect
wear and alignment setup per side.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/...ic_balance.jpg

Besides, rotating tires gives you a chance to doublecheck their
static balance and to inspect and remove between 50 and 100 pebbles
and shards from the carcass.
http://wetakepic.com/images/2018/02/18/splinter2.jpg

With respect to the country of origin of most cars driven in
America, I'd wager that Japan has the rest of the world beat in
terms of what 'mericans prefer overall.

Yes, the fronts wear faster than the rears, but so what?!* You
replace whatever wears out when it wears out.* What on earth is the
point in moving them around so you have to replace all four at once?!

It's called preventive maintenance. You are too stupid to understand
this.

It doesn't change the speed at which the tyres wear out, so is utterly
pointless.* Don't bother replying, you're killfiled, I just peeked into
it to see what ****e you were spouting.


Wrong again.

On 2/18/2018 4:13 PM, ultred ragnusen wrote:
wrote:

You really need to find something more interesting to do with your life.

Pot, kettle, black.

+1

I almost said the same thing, then thought I'd better check the response
first.

I've never seen anyone else trying so often to demonstrate their own
stupidity.

On 2/19/2018 10:44 AM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 01:57:22 -0000, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 21:59:23 +0000, alan_m
wrote:

On 18/02/2018 21:37, ultred ragnusen wrote:

How many of those 800 objects would eventually cause a blowout?


In my experience of 40 years of driving all my punctures have been made
by objects long enough to go straight through the tyre the moment I
drove over it.

By your logic if 10% of the shards could result in a puncture would all
of us that don't preform this task expect around one puncture per month?


* I average about one puncture every 10 years between my 2 vehicles.

Try driving around residential areas where ****wit builders leave nails
everywhere.


We don't live in the neighborhood where you work.