On 01/22/2018 10:52 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

I don't think electric heat is common anywhere, except maybe in very
warm areas of the country where heat is very seldom used and even then
only lightly.

I've been in several apartments in east Texas, that were all-electric.

[snip]

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"It cannot be too often repeated, that truth scorns the assistance of
miracle." -- Robert G. Ingersoll

On 1/22/18 1:27 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 00:59:09 -0000, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 1/21/2018 7:28 PM, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, January 21, 2018 at 7:17:35 PM UTC-5, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 1/21/18 5:16 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

What are "decks" in British English?* Do you mean a patio?

******* A patio is an area usually behind the house covered by stone,
bricks, or concrete.* It's ground level.* A deck is a raised platform
usually made of wood with railings.*** So a house could have a deck
above the patio.

But then there are pool decks, which are concrete at ground level too.
It gets a bit confusing.

Not to mention decks on ships.* And the poop deck.

Is poop not American English for ****?

Yes. It's used in a bit more polite company. A little bit more
polite.

On 1/22/2018 2:27 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:


But then there are pool decks, which are concrete at ground level too.
It gets a bit confusing.

Not to mention decks on ships.* And the poop deck.

Is poop not American English for ****?


Yes, but is is also the name of the highest deck on a ship. Goes back
to the old sailing ships.

On 1/22/18 1:45 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/22/2018 2:27 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:


But then there are pool decks, which are concrete at ground level too.
It gets a bit confusing.

Not to mention decks on ships.* And the poop deck.

Is poop not American English for ****?


Yes, but is is also the name of the highest deck on a ship.* Goes back
to the old sailing ships.

I was curious about the why of it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poop_deck

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 13:00:32 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:44:12 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 02:05:21 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 1/20/2018 12:41 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sat, 20 Jan 2018 14:45:42 -0500, micky
wrote:

A neighbor asked me about upgrading her breaker box.

I used to know what it is. However now, to see the value on my main
breaker would require climbing on the dryer and using a mirror but I do
know that the box has 4 duplex breakers (for the oven, water heater, AC,
and clothes dryer), 12 15-amp breakers and it has 6 empty slots before I
used one. One breaker is a GFI.

Does that imply how much amperage the house is wired for?

They were built in 1979-80. 3 floors including basement, 3 bedrooms.

It seems to me there is nothing a normal person could want to add that
would require a bigger box. Maybe an electric chair would need more.

??


Back in the day oid incandescent lighting and electric heat, 200 amp
and larger services were relatively common - and required. Back then,
people used electricity to heat their pools. Refrigeration and AC were
pretty inefficient. Large screen CRT TVs sucked power.

Today, with LED lighting, Natural gas or heat pump heating, high SEER
AC, LED TVs, etc, a 200 amp service is pretty much overkill for the
average home.

In areas without piped-in natural gas, electric furnaces, or reverse
cycle A/C is common, but of course you wouldn't have the A/C and furnace
on at the same time.

The other big items are pool pumps and electric car chargers.

While 200 amp service may be overkill, 100 amp might not be enough. I
put in an 150 amp panel because the wiring from the pole was limited to
150 amps. It's actually a 200 amp panel but with the main breaker
changed to 150 amps.

Overhead services are never "big enough" for the things they serve it
seems. 200a services are typically served by a 2ga aluminum drop. The
PoCo operates under rules different than the NEC. Who told you the
drop was too small?


In my case, I was limitted to a 125 amp service - could not get a
permit for higher because the UNDERGROUND service was not heavy
enough. Overhead wiring can be overloaded and not suffer too much as
it is "air cooled" Underground conduits are a different story (and a
LOT more expensive to upgrade!!!!)

I agree. Service laterals are sized per the NEC and they usually
belong to the customer. The overhead drop is sized by the NESC and
usually belong to the PoCo.
If your lateral is in a pipe, you might be able to pull in a bigger
one. Usually you can get 200a in a 2" pipe but the pull may be tough.

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 21:09:24 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 19:52:41 -0000, Dean Hoffman wrote:

On 1/22/18 1:45 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/22/2018 2:27 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:


But then there are pool decks, which are concrete at ground level too.
It gets a bit confusing.

Not to mention decks on ships. And the poop deck.

Is poop not American English for ****?


Yes, but is is also the name of the highest deck on a ship. Goes back
to the old sailing ships.

I was curious about the why of it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poop_deck

I did think it would be the worst possible place to poop from.

Just go over the back rail. Then it is only tough on the water skier.
That is why they call the rear of that deck the "fan tail". It was the
first bathroom fan.

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:15:36 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 13:00:32 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:44:12 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 02:05:21 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 1/20/2018 12:41 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sat, 20 Jan 2018 14:45:42 -0500, micky
wrote:

A neighbor asked me about upgrading her breaker box.

I used to know what it is. However now, to see the value on my main
breaker would require climbing on the dryer and using a mirror but I do
know that the box has 4 duplex breakers (for the oven, water heater, AC,
and clothes dryer), 12 15-amp breakers and it has 6 empty slots before I
used one. One breaker is a GFI.

Does that imply how much amperage the house is wired for?

They were built in 1979-80. 3 floors including basement, 3 bedrooms.

It seems to me there is nothing a normal person could want to add that
would require a bigger box. Maybe an electric chair would need more.

??


Back in the day oid incandescent lighting and electric heat, 200 amp
and larger services were relatively common - and required. Back then,
people used electricity to heat their pools. Refrigeration and AC were
pretty inefficient. Large screen CRT TVs sucked power.

Today, with LED lighting, Natural gas or heat pump heating, high SEER
AC, LED TVs, etc, a 200 amp service is pretty much overkill for the
average home.

In areas without piped-in natural gas, electric furnaces, or reverse
cycle A/C is common, but of course you wouldn't have the A/C and furnace
on at the same time.

The other big items are pool pumps and electric car chargers.

While 200 amp service may be overkill, 100 amp might not be enough. I
put in an 150 amp panel because the wiring from the pole was limited to
150 amps. It's actually a 200 amp panel but with the main breaker
changed to 150 amps.

Overhead services are never "big enough" for the things they serve it
seems. 200a services are typically served by a 2ga aluminum drop. The
PoCo operates under rules different than the NEC. Who told you the
drop was too small?


In my case, I was limitted to a 125 amp service - could not get a
permit for higher because the UNDERGROUND service was not heavy
enough. Overhead wiring can be overloaded and not suffer too much as
it is "air cooled" Underground conduits are a different story (and a
LOT more expensive to upgrade!!!!)

I agree. Service laterals are sized per the NEC and they usually
belong to the customer. The overhead drop is sized by the NESC and
usually belong to the PoCo.
If your lateral is in a pipe, you might be able to pull in a bigger
one. Usually you can get 200a in a 2" pipe but the pull may be tough.
Particularly whenthe transformer is in a vault 200 feet away, across
an intersection., on the far side of the house from the service
entrance. I was told the upgrade would cost me over $4000 if
everything went well - up to $8000 if the "expected problems" cropped
up - - -

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 12:31:27 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 01/22/2018 10:52 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

I don't think electric heat is common anywhere, except maybe in very
warm areas of the country where heat is very seldom used and even then
only lightly.

I've been in several apartments in east Texas, that were all-electric.

[snip]
"gold medallion" all electric homes were the "cat's meow" back in the
early seventies in Ontario.

Then Natural Gas became available and Ontario Hydro priced itself out
of the market.

Privatization, as Hydro One made it incrementally worse - - -

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 18:12:43 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:15:36 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 13:00:32 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:44:12 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 02:05:21 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 1/20/2018 12:41 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sat, 20 Jan 2018 14:45:42 -0500, micky
wrote:

A neighbor asked me about upgrading her breaker box.

I used to know what it is. However now, to see the value on my main
breaker would require climbing on the dryer and using a mirror but I do
know that the box has 4 duplex breakers (for the oven, water heater, AC,
and clothes dryer), 12 15-amp breakers and it has 6 empty slots before I
used one. One breaker is a GFI.

Does that imply how much amperage the house is wired for?

They were built in 1979-80. 3 floors including basement, 3 bedrooms.

It seems to me there is nothing a normal person could want to add that
would require a bigger box. Maybe an electric chair would need more.

??


Back in the day oid incandescent lighting and electric heat, 200 amp
and larger services were relatively common - and required. Back then,
people used electricity to heat their pools. Refrigeration and AC were
pretty inefficient. Large screen CRT TVs sucked power.

Today, with LED lighting, Natural gas or heat pump heating, high SEER
AC, LED TVs, etc, a 200 amp service is pretty much overkill for the
average home.

In areas without piped-in natural gas, electric furnaces, or reverse
cycle A/C is common, but of course you wouldn't have the A/C and furnace
on at the same time.

The other big items are pool pumps and electric car chargers.

While 200 amp service may be overkill, 100 amp might not be enough. I
put in an 150 amp panel because the wiring from the pole was limited to
150 amps. It's actually a 200 amp panel but with the main breaker
changed to 150 amps.

Overhead services are never "big enough" for the things they serve it
seems. 200a services are typically served by a 2ga aluminum drop. The
PoCo operates under rules different than the NEC. Who told you the
drop was too small?


In my case, I was limitted to a 125 amp service - could not get a
permit for higher because the UNDERGROUND service was not heavy
enough. Overhead wiring can be overloaded and not suffer too much as
it is "air cooled" Underground conduits are a different story (and a
LOT more expensive to upgrade!!!!)

I agree. Service laterals are sized per the NEC and they usually
belong to the customer. The overhead drop is sized by the NESC and
usually belong to the PoCo.
If your lateral is in a pipe, you might be able to pull in a bigger
one. Usually you can get 200a in a 2" pipe but the pull may be tough.
Particularly whenthe transformer is in a vault 200 feet away, across
an intersection., on the far side of the house from the service
entrance. I was told the upgrade would cost me over $4000 if
everything went well - up to $8000 if the "expected problems" cropped
up - - -

Yup that is the part of underground utilities people forget. Certainly
they are immune from ice storms and falling trees but when you do need
to work on them things get expensive and hard to do pretty quickly.
I believe I would have been thinking about a vault somewhere inside
my property line and cut the pull in half.

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 18:15:09 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 12:31:27 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 01/22/2018 10:52 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

I don't think electric heat is common anywhere, except maybe in very
warm areas of the country where heat is very seldom used and even then
only lightly.

I've been in several apartments in east Texas, that were all-electric.

[snip]
"gold medallion" all electric homes were the "cat's meow" back in the
early seventies in Ontario.

Then Natural Gas became available and Ontario Hydro priced itself out
of the market.

Privatization, as Hydro One made it incrementally worse - - -

There are plenty of "all electric" houses here in Florida. I have a
well so I don't even get a water bill.

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 22 Jan 2018 19:35:37 -0000, "James Wilkinson
Sword" wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 17:59:38 -0000, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 01/21/2018 05:13 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

[snip]

Even xmas lights with bulbs used about 20 watts a set.

It depends on what bulbs you're using. The (common in some places) C9
set uses 175W (25 * 7W). I called that 1.5A (going up a little for
safety). I would have no more than 9 on a 15A circuit.

Just how many
did you have?

That never seemed relevant, considering there were so many different
sizes. What I had took 7 circuits (with less than 15A on each).

I've never known of such bright xmas lights! Ours are usually under a watt each bulb.

There are the skinny, tiny incandescent ones but there are, or were,
others whose glass part is almost an inch long and over a half-inch
wide. I presume those are the one Mark means.

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 22 Jan 2018 08:44:46 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Monday, January 22, 2018 at 11:39:07 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 01:39:05 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 00:58:35 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 00:25:14 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

Sub panel is just slang for what the NEC calls a load side panel
board. There is a service panel and a feeder serving it. It is not
really defining a type of hardware other than not being listed as
"service equipment". That has to do with the ability to handle the
available fault current. If there is an upstream breaker/fuse, that is
a limited current but we usually assume service conductors have no
overcurrent protection and available fault current is only limited by
the resistance of the conductors.
Typically a service disconnect will have a AIC rating of 65,000 a or
more where a standard breaker will be 10,000 or less. This will be
printed on the breaker or breaker label.

What they can do on load side panels is use a Main Lug Only
panel (no main breaker) and then back feed a breaker for a
disconnect. That may be what you are seeing. Since it does not need to
be listed as a service disconnect, it can save the builder money.


The one I gave the part number for is listed as a"service entry
panel"

Yeah in Canada.
It was a Home Depot US listing - not sure it is available in Canada.

The box is rated 100a but if you are going to use it as a service
disconnect enclosure you need a service equipment rated 100a breaker
in it in the US. The fact that they will ship it with a 60 means you
can use it for a sub panel too.
This is the cut sheet. Notice it says box rating 100a.
https://images.tradeservice.com/9ETBOIYK8205G6UU/ATTACHMENTS/DIR100152/SQAREDE84924_DE1_9_DE1_14.pdf

The NEC says this
230.79(C) One-Family Dwellings. For a one-family dwelling, the service
disconnecting means shall have a rating of not less than 100 amperes,
3-wire.

Did we ever get an answer as to why this lady thinks she needs an
upgraded panel?

Yes. I said I wouldn't know until I saw her again Thursday night.

But my guess is that someone told her she'd need one, having selling the
house in mind, and she's thinking she might as well not wait until then,
since prices go up and she can get the "benefit" of the upgrade while
she lives there. I think I said I'd be surprised if she's tripping
breakers.

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 22 Jan 2018 18:15:09 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 12:31:27 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 01/22/2018 10:52 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

I don't think electric heat is common anywhere, except maybe in very
warm areas of the country where heat is very seldom used and even then
only lightly.

I've been in several apartments in east Texas, that were all-electric.

My mother lived in a small 2-bedroom house in Allentown, Pa. that had
been built with radiant heat in the cement slab it was on. Before or
soon after she moved in, they had trouble with the tubes and replaced it
with electric baseboard heat. Yes, it was expensive to run, and with
the baseboard heat, the floor was cold. I don't know if any neighbors
also had electric or not.


[snip]
"gold medallion" all electric homes were the "cat's meow" back in the
early seventies in Ontario.

They pushed them on TV a lot in the US, in the 60's iirc. They showed
one that actually had a gold-colored disk embedded in the front stoop.

But we already had a gas water heater, furnace, and garbage incinerator
in the suburban house in Indianapolis, built some time before 1954. By
this time my mother was a widow, and to save money she wouldn't use the
gas in the incinerator. She just mixed newspaper with the banana peels,
let it all dry, and burned it that way. (No AC, at all, but the next
owners added AC to the heating.) The few cans we had, she cut the
bottom and top off of, crushed the can, and accepted the invitation of
the man** next door to add a small package to his garbage, which he paid
to have collected. **Married, innocent invitation. A single man of the
right age on the other side of the house, but I don't think she ever
even talked to him. I don't know why.


In our older small-town city detached home before that, we had coal, and
my father bought an electric-stoker, so he could fill it before he went
to work each day, and my mother wouldn't have to shovel coal. But that
still meant my 53+ year old father, born in 1892, had to shovel a lot of
coal so around 1947 or 49, he changed to gas. No shoveling at all.
We had forced air heat then, and I thought we had it even when the
furnace used coal. That's possible, right?

I was newborn and the room wasn't warm enough, so he had a separate fan
put in the duct to my room.

While we're at it, the house didn't have enough receptacles, and I'm
just about sure he hired an electrician, not a handy-man, and the guy
drilled a hole just above the baseboard from the closet in the other
room, ran lamp cord through the hole, plugged one end into the outlet in
the closet and ran the other end along the baseboard in my room to a
surface-mount outlet.

It's been 60 years since I left there, but if I ever go by again, I'm
going to stop and check if they still use that outlet.

I think they added central AC too, so it will be even more interesting
if the outlet is still in use.

Every place I've ever lived is in nicer condition now than it was when I
lived there. (They were always in the same condition when I moved out as
when I moved in.) Except where I live now. I'm counting on the next
owners to fix it up again.


Then Natural Gas became available and Ontario Hydro priced itself out
of the market.

Privatization, as Hydro One made it incrementally worse - - -

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 23 Jan 2018 01:05:00 -0000, "James Wilkinson
Sword" wrote:

On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 00:27:37 -0000, micky wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 22 Jan 2018 19:35:37 -0000, "James Wilkinson
Sword" wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 17:59:38 -0000, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 01/21/2018 05:13 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

[snip]

Even xmas lights with bulbs used about 20 watts a set.

It depends on what bulbs you're using. The (common in some places) C9
set uses 175W (25 * 7W). I called that 1.5A (going up a little for
safety). I would have no more than 9 on a 15A circuit.

Just how many
did you have?

That never seemed relevant, considering there were so many different
sizes. What I had took 7 circuits (with less than 15A on each).

I've never known of such bright xmas lights! Ours are usually under a watt each bulb.

There are the skinny, tiny incandescent ones but there are, or were,
others whose glass part is almost an inch long and over a half-inch
wide. I presume those are the one Mark means.

Ah, big outdoor lights that you'd string all round your eaves. Wouldn't be a problem in the UK where a general use circuit of sockets is 30A at 230V. Exceeding 7kW of xmas lights would be difficult. Why is the USA living in the dark ages?

You don't get it. With the lights on, it's not dark.

I don't know about Mark's house but we have some houses whose Xmas
decorations you can see from space.

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 19:37:53 -0500, micky
wrote:


Yes. I said I wouldn't know until I saw her again Thursday night.

But my guess is that someone told her she'd need one, having selling the
house in mind, and she's thinking she might as well not wait until then,
since prices go up and she can get the "benefit" of the upgrade while
she lives there. I think I said I'd be surprised if she's tripping
breakers.

If her current panel is getting the job done and she is not planning
on buying a spa or something what added "benefit" does he expect for
her $2000-$3000?

On 01/22/2018 12:52 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 1/22/18 1:45 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/22/2018 2:27 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:


But then there are pool decks, which are concrete at ground level too.
It gets a bit confusing.

Not to mention decks on ships. And the poop deck.

Is poop not American English for ****?


Yes, but is is also the name of the highest deck on a ship. Goes back
to the old sailing ships.

I was curious about the why of it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poop_deck

Figures the French would have something to do with it...

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 19:18:00 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 18:12:43 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:15:36 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 13:00:32 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:44:12 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 02:05:21 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 1/20/2018 12:41 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sat, 20 Jan 2018 14:45:42 -0500, micky
wrote:

A neighbor asked me about upgrading her breaker box.

I used to know what it is. However now, to see the value on my main
breaker would require climbing on the dryer and using a mirror but I do
know that the box has 4 duplex breakers (for the oven, water heater, AC,
and clothes dryer), 12 15-amp breakers and it has 6 empty slots before I
used one. One breaker is a GFI.

Does that imply how much amperage the house is wired for?

They were built in 1979-80. 3 floors including basement, 3 bedrooms.

It seems to me there is nothing a normal person could want to add that
would require a bigger box. Maybe an electric chair would need more.

??


Back in the day oid incandescent lighting and electric heat, 200 amp
and larger services were relatively common - and required. Back then,
people used electricity to heat their pools. Refrigeration and AC were
pretty inefficient. Large screen CRT TVs sucked power.

Today, with LED lighting, Natural gas or heat pump heating, high SEER
AC, LED TVs, etc, a 200 amp service is pretty much overkill for the
average home.

In areas without piped-in natural gas, electric furnaces, or reverse
cycle A/C is common, but of course you wouldn't have the A/C and furnace
on at the same time.

The other big items are pool pumps and electric car chargers.

While 200 amp service may be overkill, 100 amp might not be enough. I
put in an 150 amp panel because the wiring from the pole was limited to
150 amps. It's actually a 200 amp panel but with the main breaker
changed to 150 amps.

Overhead services are never "big enough" for the things they serve it
seems. 200a services are typically served by a 2ga aluminum drop. The
PoCo operates under rules different than the NEC. Who told you the
drop was too small?


In my case, I was limitted to a 125 amp service - could not get a
permit for higher because the UNDERGROUND service was not heavy
enough. Overhead wiring can be overloaded and not suffer too much as
it is "air cooled" Underground conduits are a different story (and a
LOT more expensive to upgrade!!!!)

I agree. Service laterals are sized per the NEC and they usually
belong to the customer. The overhead drop is sized by the NESC and
usually belong to the PoCo.
If your lateral is in a pipe, you might be able to pull in a bigger
one. Usually you can get 200a in a 2" pipe but the pull may be tough.
Particularly whenthe transformer is in a vault 200 feet away, across
an intersection., on the far side of the house from the service
entrance. I was told the upgrade would cost me over $4000 if
everything went well - up to $8000 if the "expected problems" cropped
up - - -

Yup that is the part of underground utilities people forget. Certainly
they are immune from ice storms and falling trees but when you do need
to work on them things get expensive and hard to do pretty quickly.
I believe I would have been thinking about a vault somewhere inside
my property line and cut the pull in half.


Still over 100 feet from my property line to the vault

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 20:11:28 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 22 Jan 2018 18:15:09 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 12:31:27 -0600, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 01/22/2018 10:52 AM, trader_4 wrote:

[snip]

I don't think electric heat is common anywhere, except maybe in very
warm areas of the country where heat is very seldom used and even then
only lightly.

I've been in several apartments in east Texas, that were all-electric.

My mother lived in a small 2-bedroom house in Allentown, Pa. that had
been built with radiant heat in the cement slab it was on. Before or
soon after she moved in, they had trouble with the tubes and replaced it
with electric baseboard heat. Yes, it was expensive to run, and with
the baseboard heat, the floor was cold. I don't know if any neighbors
also had electric or not.


[snip]
"gold medallion" all electric homes were the "cat's meow" back in the
early seventies in Ontario.

They pushed them on TV a lot in the US, in the 60's iirc. They showed
one that actually had a gold-colored disk embedded in the front stoop.

But we already had a gas water heater, furnace, and garbage incinerator
in the suburban house in Indianapolis, built some time before 1954. By
this time my mother was a widow, and to save money she wouldn't use the
gas in the incinerator. She just mixed newspaper with the banana peels,
let it all dry, and burned it that way. (No AC, at all, but the next
owners added AC to the heating.) The few cans we had, she cut the
bottom and top off of, crushed the can, and accepted the invitation of
the man** next door to add a small package to his garbage, which he paid
to have collected. **Married, innocent invitation. A single man of the
right age on the other side of the house, but I don't think she ever
even talked to him. I don't know why.


In our older small-town city detached home before that, we had coal, and
my father bought an electric-stoker, so he could fill it before he went
to work each day, and my mother wouldn't have to shovel coal. But that
still meant my 53+ year old father, born in 1892, had to shovel a lot of
coal so around 1947 or 49, he changed to gas. No shoveling at all.
We had forced air heat then, and I thought we had it even when the
furnace used coal. That's possible, right?

Possible, but most likely a "gravity"furnace - worked on convection.
Looked like an octapus.

I was newborn and the room wasn't warm enough, so he had a separate fan
put in the duct to my room.

While we're at it, the house didn't have enough receptacles, and I'm
just about sure he hired an electrician, not a handy-man, and the guy
drilled a hole just above the baseboard from the closet in the other
room, ran lamp cord through the hole, plugged one end into the outlet in
the closet and ran the other end along the baseboard in my room to a
surface-mount outlet.

It's been 60 years since I left there, but if I ever go by again, I'm
going to stop and check if they still use that outlet.

I think they added central AC too, so it will be even more interesting
if the outlet is still in use.

Every place I've ever lived is in nicer condition now than it was when I
lived there. (They were always in the same condition when I moved out as
when I moved in.) Except where I live now. I'm counting on the next
owners to fix it up again.


Then Natural Gas became available and Ontario Hydro priced itself out
of the market.

Privatization, as Hydro One made it incrementally worse - - -

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 20:11:28 -0500, micky
wrote:


Every place I've ever lived is in nicer condition now than it was when I
lived there. (They were always in the same condition when I moved out as
when I moved in.) Except where I live now. I'm counting on the next
owners to fix it up again.


Then Natural Gas became available and Ontario Hydro priced itself out
of the market.

Privatization, as Hydro One made it incrementally worse - - -


The first house I lived in was a little stone house that had been
neglected for over 50 years. Lived there about a year - it has now got
several additions around it and is about a 1 million dollar country
home.
The next big concrete farmhouse is still standing, surrounded by a
gravel pit. The third farmhouse is still standing (last I saw it about
3 years ago) but looking a bit forlorn.
The apartment over the store in St Jacobs is still there - don't know
if it is still an apartment or not - downtown of a tourist town.

Next home, the first my parents owned, was purchased at 88 years of
age with no central heat, no indoor plumbing, and only a dropcord in
each room for lights and one receptacle in the kitchen.
25 years later when Dad sold it was one of the nicer homes on the
street,,and 40 years later it was bulldozed for the lot and a pair of
semis built.

The first house I bought I fixed up some in the years I owned it -
likely about the same shape now 37 years later.

My wife's house, where I moved when I got married, now has a big
addition and is likely a 650,000 house.

I am still living in the house we bought 37 years ago, which is in
about the same shape as when I bought it - with windows, entry door,
roof, electrical panel, furnace, etc replaced as required.

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 22 Jan 2018 21:07:08 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:


In our older small-town city detached home before that, we had coal, and
my father bought an electric-stoker, so he could fill it before he went
to work each day, and my mother wouldn't have to shovel coal. But that
still meant my 53+ year old father, born in 1892, had to shovel a lot of
coal so around 1947 or 49, he changed to gas. No shoveling at all.
We had forced air heat then, and I thought we had it even when the
furnace used coal. That's possible, right?

Possible, but most likely a "gravity"furnace - worked on convection.
Looked like an octapus.

The reason I think it had been forced air is that their was afaicr no
evidence of the ducts being added later.

There certainly were afaicr no boxed in spaces in corners of the room or
ceiling. It was two stories, plus attic and basement, I guess I'll have
to check more closely if I ever see the house again.

I'm trying to remember where the ducts were, and so far I only remember
the one in the hall, because on v. cold days, my mother would warm my
coat over it before I left for school. That was on the first floor of
course. It's the 2nd floor that would be hard to install ducts.

My father was a bachelor until he was 53, lived with his mother, sister,
and nephew in a house that was probably long paid for, and had a good
career, and there was no way to live high on the hog in this small city,
so he had lots of money by the time he got married.

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 22 Jan 2018 21:17:49 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 20:11:28 -0500, micky
wrote:


Every place I've ever lived is in nicer condition now than it was when I
lived there. (They were always in the same condition when I moved out as
when I moved in.) Except where I live now. I'm counting on the next
owners to fix it up again.


Then Natural Gas became available and Ontario Hydro priced itself out
of the market.

Privatization, as Hydro One made it incrementally worse - - -


The first house I lived in was a little stone house that had been
neglected for over 50 years. Lived there about a year - it has now got
several additions around it and is about a 1 million dollar country
home.
The next big concrete farmhouse is still standing, surrounded by a
gravel pit. The third farmhouse is still standing (last I saw it about
3 years ago) but looking a bit forlorn.
The apartment over the store in St Jacobs is still there - don't know
if it is still an apartment or not - downtown of a tourist town.

Next home, the first my parents owned, was purchased at 88 years of
age with no central heat, no indoor plumbing, and only a dropcord in
each room for lights and one receptacle in the kitchen.
25 years later when Dad sold it was one of the nicer homes on the
street,,and 40 years later it was bulldozed for the lot and a pair of
semis built.

What do you mean, semis built?

The first house I bought I fixed up some in the years I owned it -
likely about the same shape now 37 years later.

My wife's house, where I moved when I got married, now has a big
addition and is likely a 650,000 house.

I am still living in the house we bought 37 years ago, which is in
about the same shape as when I bought it - with windows, entry door,
roof, electrical panel, furnace, etc replaced as required.

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 22 Jan 2018 20:15:24 -0500,
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 19:37:53 -0500, micky
wrote:


Yes. I said I wouldn't know until I saw her again Thursday night.

But my guess is that someone told her she'd need one, having selling the
house in mind, and she's thinking she might as well not wait until then,
since prices go up and she can get the "benefit" of the upgrade while
she lives there. I think I said I'd be surprised if she's tripping
breakers.

If her current panel is getting the job done and she is not planning
on buying a spa or something what added "benefit" does he expect for
her $2000-$3000?

That's why I put it in quotes. She said "eventually", so maybe that's
just before she goes to sell it. Or maybe someone who thinks
everything always needs upgrading told her hers does. Or maybe an
electrician or handyman was trying to sell an unneeded product.

Maybe someone was just going to replace the 60 amp breaker with a 100
amp breaker, repaint the door panel, and charge her $900?

Or maybe that was someone's plan but before she did it, she would check
with electricians and not get hoodwinked.

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 21:32:41 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 22 Jan 2018 21:07:08 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:


In our older small-town city detached home before that, we had coal, and
my father bought an electric-stoker, so he could fill it before he went
to work each day, and my mother wouldn't have to shovel coal. But that
still meant my 53+ year old father, born in 1892, had to shovel a lot of
coal so around 1947 or 49, he changed to gas. No shoveling at all.
We had forced air heat then, and I thought we had it even when the
furnace used coal. That's possible, right?

Possible, but most likely a "gravity"furnace - worked on convection.
Looked like an octapus.

The reason I think it had been forced air is that their was afaicr no
evidence of the ducts being added later.

A
gravity" furnace uses ducts too - generally pretty big - and duct
booster fans were invented for gravity furnaces.

There certainly were afaicr no boxed in spaces in corners of the room or
ceiling. It was two stories, plus attic and basement, I guess I'll have
to check more closely if I ever see the house again.

I'm trying to remember where the ducts were, and so far I only remember
the one in the hall, because on v. cold days, my mother would warm my
coat over it before I left for school. That was on the first floor of
course. It's the 2nd floor that would be hard to install ducts.

My father was a bachelor until he was 53, lived with his mother, sister,
and nephew in a house that was probably long paid for, and had a good
career, and there was no way to live high on the hog in this small city,
so he had lots of money by the time he got married.

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 21:35:34 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 22 Jan 2018 21:17:49 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 20:11:28 -0500, micky
wrote:


Every place I've ever lived is in nicer condition now than it was when I
lived there. (They were always in the same condition when I moved out as
when I moved in.) Except where I live now. I'm counting on the next
owners to fix it up again.


Then Natural Gas became available and Ontario Hydro priced itself out
of the market.

Privatization, as Hydro One made it incrementally worse - - -


The first house I lived in was a little stone house that had been
neglected for over 50 years. Lived there about a year - it has now got
several additions around it and is about a 1 million dollar country
home.
The next big concrete farmhouse is still standing, surrounded by a
gravel pit. The third farmhouse is still standing (last I saw it about
3 years ago) but looking a bit forlorn.
The apartment over the store in St Jacobs is still there - don't know
if it is still an apartment or not - downtown of a tourist town.

Next home, the first my parents owned, was purchased at 88 years of
age with no central heat, no indoor plumbing, and only a dropcord in
each room for lights and one receptacle in the kitchen.
25 years later when Dad sold it was one of the nicer homes on the
street,,and 40 years later it was bulldozed for the lot and a pair of
semis built.

What do you mean, semis built?


Semi detached houses built in place of the single detatched

A semi-detatched is two houses sharing one wall.

The first house I bought I fixed up some in the years I owned it -
likely about the same shape now 37 years later.

My wife's house, where I moved when I got married, now has a big
addition and is likely a 650,000 house.

I am still living in the house we bought 37 years ago, which is in
about the same shape as when I bought it - with windows, entry door,
roof, electrical panel, furnace, etc replaced as required.

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 21:02:47 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 19:18:00 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 18:12:43 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:15:36 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 13:00:32 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:44:12 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 02:05:21 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 1/20/2018 12:41 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sat, 20 Jan 2018 14:45:42 -0500, micky
wrote:

A neighbor asked me about upgrading her breaker box.

I used to know what it is. However now, to see the value on my main
breaker would require climbing on the dryer and using a mirror but I do
know that the box has 4 duplex breakers (for the oven, water heater, AC,
and clothes dryer), 12 15-amp breakers and it has 6 empty slots before I
used one. One breaker is a GFI.

Does that imply how much amperage the house is wired for?

They were built in 1979-80. 3 floors including basement, 3 bedrooms.

It seems to me there is nothing a normal person could want to add that
would require a bigger box. Maybe an electric chair would need more.

??


Back in the day oid incandescent lighting and electric heat, 200 amp
and larger services were relatively common - and required. Back then,
people used electricity to heat their pools. Refrigeration and AC were
pretty inefficient. Large screen CRT TVs sucked power.

Today, with LED lighting, Natural gas or heat pump heating, high SEER
AC, LED TVs, etc, a 200 amp service is pretty much overkill for the
average home.

In areas without piped-in natural gas, electric furnaces, or reverse
cycle A/C is common, but of course you wouldn't have the A/C and furnace
on at the same time.

The other big items are pool pumps and electric car chargers.

While 200 amp service may be overkill, 100 amp might not be enough. I
put in an 150 amp panel because the wiring from the pole was limited to
150 amps. It's actually a 200 amp panel but with the main breaker
changed to 150 amps.

Overhead services are never "big enough" for the things they serve it
seems. 200a services are typically served by a 2ga aluminum drop. The
PoCo operates under rules different than the NEC. Who told you the
drop was too small?


In my case, I was limitted to a 125 amp service - could not get a
permit for higher because the UNDERGROUND service was not heavy
enough. Overhead wiring can be overloaded and not suffer too much as
it is "air cooled" Underground conduits are a different story (and a
LOT more expensive to upgrade!!!!)

I agree. Service laterals are sized per the NEC and they usually
belong to the customer. The overhead drop is sized by the NESC and
usually belong to the PoCo.
If your lateral is in a pipe, you might be able to pull in a bigger
one. Usually you can get 200a in a 2" pipe but the pull may be tough.
Particularly whenthe transformer is in a vault 200 feet away, across
an intersection., on the far side of the house from the service
entrance. I was told the upgrade would cost me over $4000 if
everything went well - up to $8000 if the "expected problems" cropped
up - - -

Yup that is the part of underground utilities people forget. Certainly
they are immune from ice storms and falling trees but when you do need
to work on them things get expensive and hard to do pretty quickly.
I believe I would have been thinking about a vault somewhere inside
my property line and cut the pull in half.


Still over 100 feet from my property line to the vault

A straight pull of a 2/0 triplex through a 2" is doable at 100'
particularly in a straight line, 200' is probably not happening and
that is why they said "trouble".

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 21:43:43 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 22 Jan 2018 20:15:24 -0500,
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 19:37:53 -0500, micky
wrote:


Yes. I said I wouldn't know until I saw her again Thursday night.

But my guess is that someone told her she'd need one, having selling the
house in mind, and she's thinking she might as well not wait until then,
since prices go up and she can get the "benefit" of the upgrade while
she lives there. I think I said I'd be surprised if she's tripping
breakers.

If her current panel is getting the job done and she is not planning
on buying a spa or something what added "benefit" does he expect for
her $2000-$3000?

That's why I put it in quotes. She said "eventually", so maybe that's
just before she goes to sell it. Or maybe someone who thinks
everything always needs upgrading told her hers does. Or maybe an
electrician or handyman was trying to sell an unneeded product.

Maybe someone was just going to replace the 60 amp breaker with a 100
amp breaker, repaint the door panel, and charge her $900?

Or maybe that was someone's plan but before she did it, she would check
with electricians and not get hoodwinked.

If they just need to pull in a set of new service conductors and swap
the breaker, it would be less. Most of the labor on an upgrade is in
swapping the panel and getting everything hooked back up. Seldom do
all of the wires reach the new breaker slots. If you get permits you
are also going to be replacing most of the breakers with AFCIs.
I am still curious about how you got there. Did you ever answer if
there is a separate service drop coming to that meter from the PoCo?

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 23:21:45 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 21:02:47 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 19:18:00 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 18:12:43 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:15:36 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 13:00:32 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:44:12 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 02:05:21 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 1/20/2018 12:41 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sat, 20 Jan 2018 14:45:42 -0500, micky
wrote:

A neighbor asked me about upgrading her breaker box.

I used to know what it is. However now, to see the value on my main
breaker would require climbing on the dryer and using a mirror but I do
know that the box has 4 duplex breakers (for the oven, water heater, AC,
and clothes dryer), 12 15-amp breakers and it has 6 empty slots before I
used one. One breaker is a GFI.

Does that imply how much amperage the house is wired for?

They were built in 1979-80. 3 floors including basement, 3 bedrooms.

It seems to me there is nothing a normal person could want to add that
would require a bigger box. Maybe an electric chair would need more.

??


Back in the day oid incandescent lighting and electric heat, 200 amp
and larger services were relatively common - and required. Back then,
people used electricity to heat their pools. Refrigeration and AC were
pretty inefficient. Large screen CRT TVs sucked power.

Today, with LED lighting, Natural gas or heat pump heating, high SEER
AC, LED TVs, etc, a 200 amp service is pretty much overkill for the
average home.

In areas without piped-in natural gas, electric furnaces, or reverse
cycle A/C is common, but of course you wouldn't have the A/C and furnace
on at the same time.

The other big items are pool pumps and electric car chargers.

While 200 amp service may be overkill, 100 amp might not be enough. I
put in an 150 amp panel because the wiring from the pole was limited to
150 amps. It's actually a 200 amp panel but with the main breaker
changed to 150 amps.

Overhead services are never "big enough" for the things they serve it
seems. 200a services are typically served by a 2ga aluminum drop. The
PoCo operates under rules different than the NEC. Who told you the
drop was too small?


In my case, I was limitted to a 125 amp service - could not get a
permit for higher because the UNDERGROUND service was not heavy
enough. Overhead wiring can be overloaded and not suffer too much as
it is "air cooled" Underground conduits are a different story (and a
LOT more expensive to upgrade!!!!)

I agree. Service laterals are sized per the NEC and they usually
belong to the customer. The overhead drop is sized by the NESC and
usually belong to the PoCo.
If your lateral is in a pipe, you might be able to pull in a bigger
one. Usually you can get 200a in a 2" pipe but the pull may be tough.
Particularly whenthe transformer is in a vault 200 feet away, across
an intersection., on the far side of the house from the service
entrance. I was told the upgrade would cost me over $4000 if
everything went well - up to $8000 if the "expected problems" cropped
up - - -

Yup that is the part of underground utilities people forget. Certainly
they are immune from ice storms and falling trees but when you do need
to work on them things get expensive and hard to do pretty quickly.
I believe I would have been thinking about a vault somewhere inside
my property line and cut the pull in half.


Still over 100 feet from my property line to the vault

A straight pull of a 2/0 triplex through a 2" is doable at 100'
particularly in a straight line, 200' is probably not happening and
that is why they said "trouble".


It's transite too - which is just another way of spellling trouble.

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 23:58:26 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 23:21:45 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 21:02:47 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 19:18:00 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 18:12:43 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:15:36 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 13:00:32 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:44:12 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 02:05:21 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 1/20/2018 12:41 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sat, 20 Jan 2018 14:45:42 -0500, micky
wrote:

A neighbor asked me about upgrading her breaker box.

I used to know what it is. However now, to see the value on my main
breaker would require climbing on the dryer and using a mirror but I do
know that the box has 4 duplex breakers (for the oven, water heater, AC,
and clothes dryer), 12 15-amp breakers and it has 6 empty slots before I
used one. One breaker is a GFI.

Does that imply how much amperage the house is wired for?

They were built in 1979-80. 3 floors including basement, 3 bedrooms.

It seems to me there is nothing a normal person could want to add that
would require a bigger box. Maybe an electric chair would need more.

??


Back in the day oid incandescent lighting and electric heat, 200 amp
and larger services were relatively common - and required. Back then,
people used electricity to heat their pools. Refrigeration and AC were
pretty inefficient. Large screen CRT TVs sucked power.

Today, with LED lighting, Natural gas or heat pump heating, high SEER
AC, LED TVs, etc, a 200 amp service is pretty much overkill for the
average home.

In areas without piped-in natural gas, electric furnaces, or reverse
cycle A/C is common, but of course you wouldn't have the A/C and furnace
on at the same time.

The other big items are pool pumps and electric car chargers.

While 200 amp service may be overkill, 100 amp might not be enough. I
put in an 150 amp panel because the wiring from the pole was limited to
150 amps. It's actually a 200 amp panel but with the main breaker
changed to 150 amps.

Overhead services are never "big enough" for the things they serve it
seems. 200a services are typically served by a 2ga aluminum drop. The
PoCo operates under rules different than the NEC. Who told you the
drop was too small?


In my case, I was limitted to a 125 amp service - could not get a
permit for higher because the UNDERGROUND service was not heavy
enough. Overhead wiring can be overloaded and not suffer too much as
it is "air cooled" Underground conduits are a different story (and a
LOT more expensive to upgrade!!!!)

I agree. Service laterals are sized per the NEC and they usually
belong to the customer. The overhead drop is sized by the NESC and
usually belong to the PoCo.
If your lateral is in a pipe, you might be able to pull in a bigger
one. Usually you can get 200a in a 2" pipe but the pull may be tough.
Particularly whenthe transformer is in a vault 200 feet away, across
an intersection., on the far side of the house from the service
entrance. I was told the upgrade would cost me over $4000 if
everything went well - up to $8000 if the "expected problems" cropped
up - - -

Yup that is the part of underground utilities people forget. Certainly
they are immune from ice storms and falling trees but when you do need
to work on them things get expensive and hard to do pretty quickly.
I believe I would have been thinking about a vault somewhere inside
my property line and cut the pull in half.


Still over 100 feet from my property line to the vault

A straight pull of a 2/0 triplex through a 2" is doable at 100'
particularly in a straight line, 200' is probably not happening and
that is why they said "trouble".


It's transite too - which is just another way of spellling trouble.

Was this gee whiz info or do you need the upgrade? I was getting away
with 100a just fine here until I decided I wanted a spa and this is an
all electric house. I was getting along fairly well on ~23a from a
5.5KW generator, just no central AC or hot water.

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 22 Jan 2018 22:30:13 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:


25 years later when Dad sold it was one of the nicer homes on the
street,,and 40 years later it was bulldozed for the lot and a pair of
semis built.

What do you mean, semis built?


Semi detached houses built in place of the single detatched

Oh. All I could think of were trucks


A semi-detatched is two houses sharing one wall.

I thought it was a house that really didn't care what happened to its
friends. But I'll accept your definition.

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 22 Jan 2018 23:29:37 -0500,
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 21:43:43 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Mon, 22 Jan 2018 20:15:24 -0500,
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 19:37:53 -0500, micky
wrote:


Yes. I said I wouldn't know until I saw her again Thursday night.

But my guess is that someone told her she'd need one, having selling the
house in mind, and she's thinking she might as well not wait until then,
since prices go up and she can get the "benefit" of the upgrade while
she lives there. I think I said I'd be surprised if she's tripping
breakers.

If her current panel is getting the job done and she is not planning
on buying a spa or something what added "benefit" does he expect for
her $2000-$3000?

That's why I put it in quotes. She said "eventually", so maybe that's
just before she goes to sell it. Or maybe someone who thinks
everything always needs upgrading told her hers does. Or maybe an
electrician or handyman was trying to sell an unneeded product.

Maybe someone was just going to replace the 60 amp breaker with a 100
amp breaker, repaint the door panel, and charge her $900?

Or maybe that was someone's plan but before she did it, she would check
with electricians and not get hoodwinked.

If they just need to pull in a set of new service conductors and swap
the breaker, it would be less. Most of the labor on an upgrade is in
swapping the panel and getting everything hooked back up. Seldom do
all of the wires reach the new breaker slots. If you get permits you
are also going to be replacing most of the breakers with AFCIs.

Sure. I called my ex-next-door neighbor. Many people no longer
personalize their message, so if she has the same cell phone number, I'm
sure her husband will call back soon and he'll likely know if the
service is 100 amps.

I am still curious about how you got there. Did you ever answer if
there is a separate service drop coming to that meter from the PoCo?

I don't know exactly what your question means. but there is no other
panel between any house and the Poco. These are not subpanels.

I think I did say that before.

There is a meter for each house and the breaker box only 10 feet from
it. And from there it goes to the street and a transformer at the end of
every building. I watched them change the transformer once and there's
nothing in it but a transformer.

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 23 Jan 2018 00:40:25 -0500,
wrote:




Still over 100 feet from my property line to the vault

A straight pull of a 2/0 triplex through a 2" is doable at 100'
particularly in a straight line, 200' is probably not happening and
that is why they said "trouble".


It's transite too - which is just another way of spellling trouble.

What's transite?

Was this gee whiz info or do you need the upgrade? I was getting away
with 100a just fine here until I decided I wanted a spa and this is an
all electric house. I was getting along fairly well on ~23a from a
5.5KW generator, just no central AC or hot water.

You remind me that one of my neighbors expanded her deck, put on walls
and a roof and a hot tub. She either had to increase her service or she
at least determined what it was and that it was enough. I found her
number, I think, but she's young enough to work so I don't want to call
until evening. I hope she remembers.

I could also talk to the guy who owns her house now, and see if the
breaker box is different from the rest of ours, except I accidentally
parked in his spot a month ago and he might still be annoyed at me.

On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 00:40:25 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 23:58:26 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 23:21:45 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 21:02:47 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 19:18:00 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 18:12:43 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:15:36 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 13:00:32 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 11:44:12 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 02:05:21 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 1/20/2018 12:41 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sat, 20 Jan 2018 14:45:42 -0500, micky
wrote:

A neighbor asked me about upgrading her breaker box.

I used to know what it is. However now, to see the value on my main
breaker would require climbing on the dryer and using a mirror but I do
know that the box has 4 duplex breakers (for the oven, water heater, AC,
and clothes dryer), 12 15-amp breakers and it has 6 empty slots before I
used one. One breaker is a GFI.

Does that imply how much amperage the house is wired for?

They were built in 1979-80. 3 floors including basement, 3 bedrooms.

It seems to me there is nothing a normal person could want to add that
would require a bigger box. Maybe an electric chair would need more.

??


Back in the day oid incandescent lighting and electric heat, 200 amp
and larger services were relatively common - and required. Back then,
people used electricity to heat their pools. Refrigeration and AC were
pretty inefficient. Large screen CRT TVs sucked power.

Today, with LED lighting, Natural gas or heat pump heating, high SEER
AC, LED TVs, etc, a 200 amp service is pretty much overkill for the
average home.

In areas without piped-in natural gas, electric furnaces, or reverse
cycle A/C is common, but of course you wouldn't have the A/C and furnace
on at the same time.

The other big items are pool pumps and electric car chargers.

While 200 amp service may be overkill, 100 amp might not be enough. I
put in an 150 amp panel because the wiring from the pole was limited to
150 amps. It's actually a 200 amp panel but with the main breaker
changed to 150 amps.

Overhead services are never "big enough" for the things they serve it
seems. 200a services are typically served by a 2ga aluminum drop. The
PoCo operates under rules different than the NEC. Who told you the
drop was too small?


In my case, I was limitted to a 125 amp service - could not get a
permit for higher because the UNDERGROUND service was not heavy
enough. Overhead wiring can be overloaded and not suffer too much as
it is "air cooled" Underground conduits are a different story (and a
LOT more expensive to upgrade!!!!)

I agree. Service laterals are sized per the NEC and they usually
belong to the customer. The overhead drop is sized by the NESC and
usually belong to the PoCo.
If your lateral is in a pipe, you might be able to pull in a bigger
one. Usually you can get 200a in a 2" pipe but the pull may be tough.
Particularly whenthe transformer is in a vault 200 feet away, across
an intersection., on the far side of the house from the service
entrance. I was told the upgrade would cost me over $4000 if
everything went well - up to $8000 if the "expected problems" cropped
up - - -

Yup that is the part of underground utilities people forget. Certainly
they are immune from ice storms and falling trees but when you do need
to work on them things get expensive and hard to do pretty quickly.
I believe I would have been thinking about a vault somewhere inside
my property line and cut the pull in half.


Still over 100 feet from my property line to the vault

A straight pull of a 2/0 triplex through a 2" is doable at 100'
particularly in a straight line, 200' is probably not happening and
that is why they said "trouble".


It's transite too - which is just another way of spellling trouble.

Was this gee whiz info or do you need the upgrade? I was getting away
with 100a just fine here until I decided I wanted a spa and this is an
all electric house. I was getting along fairly well on ~23a from a
5.5KW generator, just no central AC or hot water.


I was getting along just fineon 100 amps, with fuses. I was
considering moving and know that in this area a fused panel will cost
me at resale. I also know that with 100 amps being minimum that a 200
amp service would be an advantage, at virtually the same cost.

I was limited to 125 by the poco.

On 01/22/2018 01:27 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

[snip]

Is poop not American English for ****?

Yes, although the 'poop' in poop deck is something completely different.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

One sign of emotional maturity is doing what you want to, even if
everybody is telling you to do it.

On 01/22/2018 01:35 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

[snip]

I've never known of such bright xmas lights!* Ours are usually under a
watt each bulb.

At one time everyone in this neighborhood surrounded their yard with
plain incandescent C9 lights (7W each bulb, and about a foot apart).
When I looked up the street, it looked like I was at the airport. The
lights were TOO bright, making it hard to see anything else. Most people
have stopped using them.

Most of what I used were miniature (.5W). Note that 500 of these draw 2A
and can be connected string-to-string (3A fuse and I subtract 1A to keep
it from blowing too much). Now those are all LED (about 1.8W for the
whole string of 50-70).

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

One sign of emotional maturity is doing what you want to, even if
everybody is telling you to do it.

On 01/22/2018 01:37 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 18:07:07 -0000, Sam E
wrote:

On 01/21/2018 05:14 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

[snip]

Why would insurance care about how much power you have available?

Maybe they assume you'll overload 60A service.

And the fuse would cost how much for the insurance?

Less than rebuilding the house because it caught fire when the breaker
failed to trip.

And once you have a mortgage you can drop the insurance :-)

On 01/22/2018 06:21 PM, wrote:

[snip]

There are plenty of "all electric" houses here in Florida. I have a
well so I don't even get a water bill.

I grew up on a farm where we got water from a well. I remember several
times during electric outages (used to be common there) when we went to
a neighbor (who had city water) to get water.

That well water had iron in it, which could make it look like beer. It
was good for drinking (it didn't taste like beer) but bad for washing
(since it would take a long time to get the soap out).

I liked to watch what was going on in the pump house. The pump itself
was down in the well, but I could watch the gauge on the tank and the
pressure switch (I think I new then that 240V required double pole
switches).

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

One sign of emotional maturity is doing what you want to, even if
everybody is telling you to do it.

On 01/22/2018 06:27 PM, micky wrote:

[snip]

There are the skinny, tiny incandescent ones but there are, or were,
others whose glass part is almost an inch long and over a half-inch
wide. I presume those are the one Mark means.

That sounds like C7 bulbs (5W, candelabra base). The ones people here
used so many of were C9 (7W, intermediate base) which were even bigger.

Now, I usually use exactly ONE C9 incandescent bulb. A red one for
Rudolph's nose.

BTW, the only non-holiday place I've seen intermediate-base bulbs used
is in a microwave oven.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

One sign of emotional maturity is doing what you want to, even if
everybody is telling you to do it.

On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 08:52:35 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 23 Jan 2018 00:40:25 -0500,
wrote:




Still over 100 feet from my property line to the vault

A straight pull of a 2/0 triplex through a 2" is doable at 100'
particularly in a straight line, 200' is probably not happening and
that is why they said "trouble".


It's transite too - which is just another way of spellling trouble.

What's transite?

It is a crappy asbestos cement pipe - google it.

Was this gee whiz info or do you need the upgrade? I was getting away
with 100a just fine here until I decided I wanted a spa and this is an
all electric house. I was getting along fairly well on ~23a from a
5.5KW generator, just no central AC or hot water.

You remind me that one of my neighbors expanded her deck, put on walls
and a roof and a hot tub. She either had to increase her service or she
at least determined what it was and that it was enough. I found her
number, I think, but she's young enough to work so I don't want to call
until evening. I hope she remembers.

I could also talk to the guy who owns her house now, and see if the
breaker box is different from the rest of ours, except I accidentally
parked in his spot a month ago and he might still be annoyed at me.

On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 21:20:11 -0000, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:


They don't do that much around here. Most lights are inside, or inside
windows. There are some outside, bu they're just half a watt per bulb
and can only be seen at night.

The bulb inside your dense head obviously is never on, Birdbrain!

--
Rejected Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson" LOL) on what he'd have done
if he had been drafted:
"I'd have been a conscientious objector, mainly because I would have taken
Hitler's side. Better yet, defect and blow up my own people."
MID:

On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 21:21:54 -0000, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:

They really are quite disgusting as the **** from the previous user is never quite flushed properly, and often is on the bit you're meant to stand on.

What could be more disgusting than a gay wanking piece of Scottish **** like
you, Birdbrain!

--
More from Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL) abnormal sociopathic
world:
"However I do like to make fun of people. For example, a professor once
told a secretary off for having a topless male model as the wallpaper on her
computer. So I told her he was a hypocrite, and that he had pictures of
transvestites on his (not as wallpaper, but stored on the hard disk). She
spread that around quite quickly."
MID: