On 09/24/2016 03:39 PM, T wrote:
Better to train folks to ofay the commands of the cops.

The ofays already got that down. It's the #BlackLiesMatter types that
appear to be ineducable.

On 09/24/2016 08:05 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 09/24/2016 03:39 PM, T wrote:
Better to train folks to ofay the commands of the cops.

The ofays already got that down. It's the #BlackLiesMatter types that
appear to be ineducable.

I typo'ed "obey" pretty bad. :'(

On 9/24/2016 9:35 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:


And the latest one - where the wife was shooting video while telling the
cops that her husband was on some sort of medication.... I can't figure
out why on earth the cops, at that point, couldn't have just backed off
and waited for things to settle down... it's not like the guy had a
pump-action shotgun and was firing at people.

Just released information though, reveals a gun. You may want to hold
off on your opinion. Video does not show him pointing it, but the gun
had his fingerprints and dna on it.



Same with a 15-year-old girl recently: they handcuffed her, got her
mostly into the car and then, when she refused to pull her feet inside
the door, they maced her. Geeze..... How about you just step back and
tell her than you're getting paid by the hour and she can lay there
until the cows come home... but sooner or later she's going to get tired
of it?

Why was she arrested? I don't recall the case but it is easy to give
your solution sitting at the keyboard. Don't know what was justified.



They seem heavily biased or trained towards exacting total immediate
submission no matter what - and escalating force until they get it.

They have priorities, such as protecting their lives and others nearby.
They are at risk while the perp is free to react in a negative way.

On 9/24/2016 8:35 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Bob F:
Take that 12 year old in the park with an airsoft gun. The cops got a
report of a child with a "gun" ( The caller to the police said he
thought it was a toy), and they drive up to within a few feet of the
boy, and kill him within seconds. They could have stopped a safe
distance away, and tried to figure out what was really going on, perhaps
safely behind their car, while reinforcements were called, but chose
what I consider a really stupid approach to the situation.

And the latest one - where the wife was shooting video while telling the
cops that her husband was on some sort of medication.... I can't figure
out why on earth the cops, at that point, couldn't have just backed off
and waited for things to settle down... it's not like the guy had a
pump-action shotgun and was firing at people.

Same with a 15-year-old girl recently: they handcuffed her, got her
mostly into the car and then, when she refused to pull her feet inside
the door, they maced her. Geeze..... How about you just step back and
tell her than you're getting paid by the hour and she can lay there
until the cows come home... but sooner or later she's going to get tired
of it?

They seem heavily biased or trained towards exacting total immediate
submission no matter what - and escalating force until they get it.


And how about the wacko hiding in the boat after planting the Boston
Marathon bombs? They had him surrounded, there was no way in the
world he was going anywhere... Nobody knew how many other bombs he had
planted - so it would seem like a really, really, *really* good idea to
take him alive and able to talk..... Instead they poured fire into that
boat for at least 20 seconds.... by some miracle, he survived and was
able to be questioned but it was just that: a miracle....... My
impression of that whole thing was "Keystone Cops in action".


Yeah. I agree with you!

--
Maggie

On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 00:06:50 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Just released information though, reveals a gun. You may want to hold
off on your opinion. Video does not show him pointing it, but the gun
had his fingerprints and dna on it.

....14 arrest in 3 states, one conviction for armed assault with a
weapon, convicted Felon, marijuana seen in the vehicle, gun in the car
was observed... BATF will also trace the gun serial number and
origination -- ruling out it was planted (a thrown down gun)

It taint lookin' good for Scott.

But no, the guy was black, so he must be a "bad dude" high on PCP ready
to kill all the cops in sight, so must be murdered immediately.

Who said that?

The cop in the helicopter. It's on the audio from the helicopter footage.

He said "Big Bad Dude" which is more of a figure of speech than it is
anything else. Anybody that size could be called that even if he is a
"Gentle Giant" and not a bad person at all. It is sad that anybody takes
an utterance like that as having any real meaning at all - grasping at
straws to further their own agenda is how I see it.

Figure of speech or not, it seems a strange thing to say (especially
from a cop) looking down from a helicopter hovering at about 50ft or so
when the only view he had was the top of the man's head. He didn't have
a gun and had his hands up in the air so from that cop's perspective it
must have looked like the guy was complying.
Sounds more like a pre judgement to me.

I have no personal agenda, I just say as I see and hear.

On 25/09/2016 05:06, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/24/2016 9:35 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:


And the latest one - where the wife was shooting video while telling the
cops that her husband was on some sort of medication.... I can't figure
out why on earth the cops, at that point, couldn't have just backed off
and waited for things to settle down... it's not like the guy had a
pump-action shotgun and was firing at people.

Just released information though, reveals a gun. You may want to hold
off on your opinion. Video does not show him pointing it, but the gun
had his fingerprints and dna on it.



Same with a 15-year-old girl recently: they handcuffed her, got her
mostly into the car and then, when she refused to pull her feet inside
the door, they maced her. Geeze..... How about you just step back and
tell her than you're getting paid by the hour and she can lay there
until the cows come home... but sooner or later she's going to get tired
of it?

Why was she arrested? I don't recall the case but it is easy to give
your solution sitting at the keyboard. Don't know what was justified.



They seem heavily biased or trained towards exacting total immediate
submission no matter what - and escalating force until they get it.

They have priorities, such as protecting their lives and others nearby.
They are at risk while the perp is free to react in a negative way.



Why do selections of your police force come over to the UK to learn how
our cops approach and tackle dangerous villains without guns?
There are other ways.

Scots Police Teach US Cops How To Avoid Gun Use - Sky News
news.sky.com/story/scots-police-teach-us-cops-how-to-avoid-gun-use-10151069
31 Jan 2016 - Sky cameras follow officers from Boston Police Department
as they find out how violent offenders are tackled in the UK. ...
American police chiefs have been to Scotland to learn new techniques in
how to avoid shooting violent suspects ... "It's about time that we step
up and this is our chance," said Mr Wexler ...
__________________________________________________ __________________
What can US trigger-happy cops learn from Britain's gunless police ...
www.independent.co.uk › News › World › Americas
12 Jun 2015 - To join the few and the proud who police Britain's streets
with a gun, first ... “I constantly remind our officers that their best
weapon is their mouth,” he said. ... officers faced regular drills
challenging them to find creative ways out ...

60 minutes had a demo of a military weapon, point it at a person and they instantly get violently ill.

there are way to many cop shootings occurying.

Bod presented the following explanation :
But no, the guy was black, so he must be a "bad dude" high on PCP ready
to kill all the cops in sight, so must be murdered immediately.

Who said that?

The cop in the helicopter. It's on the audio from the helicopter footage.

He said "Big Bad Dude" which is more of a figure of speech than it is
anything else. Anybody that size could be called that even if he is a
"Gentle Giant" and not a bad person at all. It is sad that anybody takes
an utterance like that as having any real meaning at all - grasping at
straws to further their own agenda is how I see it.

Figure of speech or not, it seems a strange thing to say (especially from a
cop) looking down from a helicopter hovering at about 50ft or so when the
only view he had was the top of the man's head. He didn't have a gun and had
his hands up in the air so from that cop's perspective it must have looked
like the guy was complying.
Sounds more like a pre judgement to me.

I have no personal agenda, I just say as I see and hear.

I agree with that, that person should not have offered such a remark at
all, and should be reprimanded for having done so.

On 09/25/2016 08:26 AM, bob haller wrote:
60 minutes had a demo of a military weapon, point it at a person and they instantly get violently ill.

there are way to many cop shootings occurying.

Why do you want to save the lives of criminals?

On 09/25/2016 07:28 AM, Bod wrote:
Why do selections of your police force come over to the UK to learn how our cops approach and tackle dangerous villains without guns?
There are other ways.

Scots Police Teach US Cops How To Avoid Gun Use - Sky News
news.sky.com/story/scots-police-teach-us-cops-how-to-avoid-gun-use-10151069
31 Jan 2016 - Sky cameras follow officers from Boston Police Department as they find out how violent offenders are tackled in the UK. ... American police chiefs have been to Scotland to learn new techniques in how to avoid shooting violent suspects ...
"It's about time that we step up and this is our chance," said Mr Wexler ...
__________________________________________________ __________________
What can US trigger-happy cops learn from Britain's gunless police ...
www.independent.co.uk › News › World › Americas
12 Jun 2015 - To join the few and the proud who police Britain's streets with a gun, first ... “I constantly remind our officers that their best weapon is their mouth,” he said. ... officers faced regular drills challenging them to find creative ways
out ...


Will those miracle techniques keep the jihad muslims peaceful?

On Sunday, September 25, 2016 at 8:53:52 AM UTC-4, Hob Baller wrote:
On 09/25/2016 08:26 AM, bob haller wrote:
60 minutes had a demo of a military weapon, point it at a person and they instantly get violently ill.

there are way to many cop shootings occurying.

Why do you want to save the lives of criminals?

remember innocent till proven guilty? its in our constution......

should anyone be killed by a cop for a minor infraction?

On 09/25/2016 04:34 AM, Muggles wrote:
On 9/24/2016 8:35 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Bob F:
Take that 12 year old in the park with an airsoft gun. The cops got a
report of a child with a "gun" ( The caller to the police said he
thought it was a toy), and they drive up to within a few feet of the
boy, and kill him within seconds. They could have stopped a safe
distance away, and tried to figure out what was really going on, perhaps
safely behind their car, while reinforcements were called, but chose
what I consider a really stupid approach to the situation.
And the latest one - where the wife was shooting video while telling the
cops that her husband was on some sort of medication.... I can't figure
out why on earth the cops, at that point, couldn't have just backed off
and waited for things to settle down... it's not like the guy had a
pump-action shotgun and was firing at people.

Same with a 15-year-old girl recently: they handcuffed her, got her
mostly into the car and then, when she refused to pull her feet inside
the door, they maced her. Geeze..... How about you just step back and
tell her than you're getting paid by the hour and she can lay there
until the cows come home... but sooner or later she's going to get tired
of it?

They seem heavily biased or trained towards exacting total immediate
submission no matter what - and escalating force until they get it.


And how about the wacko hiding in the boat after planting the Boston
Marathon bombs? They had him surrounded, there was no way in the
world he was going anywhere... Nobody knew how many other bombs he had
planted - so it would seem like a really, really, *really* good idea to
take him alive and able to talk..... Instead they poured fire into that
boat for at least 20 seconds.... by some miracle, he survived and was
able to be questioned but it was just that: a miracle....... My
impression of that whole thing was "Keystone Cops in action".

Yeah. I agree with you!

Yah, just read a couple bible verses to the perp and they'd immediately confess and surrender.

On 25/09/2016 14:01, Jack wrote:
On 09/25/2016 07:28 AM, Bod wrote:
Why do selections of your police force come over to the UK to learn
how our cops approach and tackle dangerous villains without guns?
There are other ways.

Scots Police Teach US Cops How To Avoid Gun Use - Sky News
news.sky.com/story/scots-police-teach-us-cops-how-to-avoid-gun-use-10151069

31 Jan 2016 - Sky cameras follow officers from Boston Police
Department as they find out how violent offenders are tackled in the
UK. ... American police chiefs have been to Scotland to learn new
techniques in how to avoid shooting violent suspects ... "It's about
time that we step up and this is our chance," said Mr Wexler ...
__________________________________________________ __________________
What can US trigger-happy cops learn from Britain's gunless police ...
www.independent.co.uk › News › World › Americas
12 Jun 2015 - To join the few and the proud who police Britain's
streets with a gun, first ... “I constantly remind our officers that
their best weapon is their mouth,” he said. ... officers faced regular
drills challenging them to find creative ways out ...


Will those miracle techniques keep the jihad muslims peaceful?

We seem to stop them before they can do their stuff, mainly crosses
fingers :-).

France/Begium and the USA appear to be the hotspots.

And how about the wacko hiding in the boat after planting the Boston
Marathon bombs? They had him surrounded, there was no way in the
world he was going anywhere... Nobody knew how many other bombs he had
planted - so it would seem like a really, really, *really* good idea to
take him alive and able to talk..... Instead they poured fire into that
boat for at least 20 seconds.... by some miracle, he survived and was
able to be questioned but it was just that: a miracle....... My
impression of that whole thing was "Keystone Cops in action".

Yeah. I agree with you!

Yah, just read a couple bible verses to the perp and they'd immediately
confess and surrender.

Make them eat a bacon sandwich? :-)

Per bob haller:
60 minutes had a demo of a military weapon, point it at a person and they instantly get violently ill.

Sounds like the "Sick Stick" portrayed in the sci-fi movie "The Minority
Report".
--
Pete Cresswell

On 9/25/2016 9:05 AM, bob haller wrote:
On Sunday, September 25, 2016 at 8:53:52 AM UTC-4, Hob Baller wrote:
On 09/25/2016 08:26 AM, bob haller wrote:
60 minutes had a demo of a military weapon, point it at a person and they instantly get violently ill.

there are way to many cop shootings occurying.
Why do you want to save the lives of criminals?
remember innocent till proven guilty? its in our constution......

should anyone be killed by a cop for a minor infraction?

Arguing with the police on the street is never smart.

Get an attorney if you feel you have been wronged.

On 9/25/2016 8:37 AM, FromTheRafters wrote:

Figure of speech or not, it seems a strange thing to say (especially
from a cop) looking down from a helicopter hovering at about 50ft or
so when the only view he had was the top of the man's head. He didn't
have a gun and had his hands up in the air so from that cop's
perspective it must have looked like the guy was complying.
Sounds more like a pre judgement to me.

I have no personal agenda, I just say as I see and hear.

I agree with that, that person should not have offered such a remark at
all, and should be reprimanded for having done so.


You are against free speech? It was meant to be a comment to his
co-worker, he was not working as a TV announcer. He expressed an
opinion, just like millions of us do every day. Next step is Thought
Police stuffing that politically correct bs down our throats.

Per Crybaby Liberal:
Yah, just read a couple bible verses to the perp and they'd immediately confess and surrender.

I think you are missing the points:

- There may have been more pressure bombs ready to go off.

- The wacko in the boat would know where those bombs were.

- It would be important to extract the location of
those bombs from the wacko in the boat.

- The wacko in the boat was already totally under
control of the I-don't-know-how-many (hundreds?)
of armed LEOs surrounding the boat: he didn't need
to surrender, he was already "Had".

- Killing the wacko in the boat would prevent extracting
that information about the location of other bombs.



I note that the recent incident in NYC resulted in the capture of the
perpetrator alive instead of his death.

In the interviews I have watched, Bratton seemed to have his head
screwed on better than most - a *lot* better IMHO...and I have to wonder
if maybe he has drilled it into the NYPD cops that we want to
interrogate these guys and not kill them outright.
--
Pete Cresswell

Ed Pawlowski was thinking very hard :
On 9/25/2016 8:37 AM, FromTheRafters wrote:

Figure of speech or not, it seems a strange thing to say (especially
from a cop) looking down from a helicopter hovering at about 50ft or
so when the only view he had was the top of the man's head. He didn't
have a gun and had his hands up in the air so from that cop's
perspective it must have looked like the guy was complying.
Sounds more like a pre judgement to me.

I have no personal agenda, I just say as I see and hear.

I agree with that, that person should not have offered such a remark at
all, and should be reprimanded for having done so.


You are against free speech? It was meant to be a comment to his co-worker,
he was not working as a TV announcer. He expressed an opinion, just like
millions of us do every day. Next step is Thought Police stuffing that
politically correct bs down our throats.

Oh please! If he had said "That black ******* is obvoiusly high on
drugs" he would probably be severely disciplined. It has nothing to do
with this PC crap. Like it or not, communications systems have rules to
follow. If nothing else, useless radio chatter is frowned upon.

Its easy to Monday morning quarterback. The guy shot in the car had a gun. If they backed off, then he drove off and people were killed in a high speed chase,or he shot someone,then what? The cops told him to drop the gun,he didn't. They had the advantage,they ended it right there when he presented a deadly threat.

The girl, they could have handled it differently,but I'm surprised you think waiting hours for her to comply is an option. They aren't babysitters and if she was my kid I'd tell her that i hope she learned a lesson.

On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 01:26:50 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

60 minutes had a demo of a military weapon, point it at a person and they instantly get violently ill.


You may be thinking of Long Range Acoustic Device (LRAD) "...According
to the manufacturer's specifications, the systems weigh from 15 to 320
pounds (6.8 to 145.1 kg) and can emit sound in a 30°- 60° beam at 2.5
kHz"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Range_Acoustic_Device

How can they focus it on one person and not others?

there are way to many cop shootings occurying.

Some people deserve to be shot. May the cops can give them milk and
cookies, right Bob?
--
you never meet a horse that needs stealing, but you meet a man that needs killin'

On 25/09/2016 17:47, Oren wrote:
On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 01:26:50 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

60 minutes had a demo of a military weapon, point it at a person and they instantly get violently ill.


You may be thinking of Long Range Acoustic Device (LRAD) "...According
to the manufacturer's specifications, the systems weigh from 15 to 320
pounds (6.8 to 145.1 kg) and can emit sound in a 30°- 60° beam at 2.5
kHz"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Range_Acoustic_Device

How can they focus it on one person and not others?

there are way to many cop shootings occurying.

Some people deserve to be shot. May the cops can give them milk and
cookies, right Bob?

If that works for a peaceful result, why not.
That approach has been done before in the UK with success on at least
one occasion.

On 09/25/2016 10:47 AM, Oren wrote:
On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 01:26:50 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

60 minutes had a demo of a military weapon, point it at a person and they instantly get violently ill.

You may be thinking of Long Range Acoustic Device (LRAD) "...According
to the manufacturer's specifications, the systems weigh from 15 to 320
pounds (6.8 to 145.1 kg) and can emit sound in a 30°- 60° beam at 2.5
kHz"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Range_Acoustic_Device

How can they focus it on one person and not others?

Sounds like just the thing for a BLM riot. I remember reading about
infrasound weapons, probably in Mechanix Illllustrated c. 1960. They
used sound from 7 to 20 Hz and were capable of causing psychological
distress as well as physical damage when you cranked them up to 11.
However that was over 50 years ago. I have to assume if the weapons were
feasible, they would have been deployed by repressive governments long
ago -- not to say by modern liberal democracies.

On 9/24/2016 12:22 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/24/2016 1:33 PM, Bob F wrote:

"The perp had a gun in his pocket."
Louisiana is an open carry state. There was nothing wrong with having a
gun in his pocket. It seems like in many cases, as soon as a gun is
seen, the "perp" is dead, even in open carry states.

The second amendment only applies to whites?

Why are you making it a race thing?



The "perp" seems to often be innocent of any crime. They are just a
black man in the wrong spot when the cops show up, often looking for
someone else.

Seemed like odd circumstances in the middle of the road straddling the
center line.




The guy in Tulsa walked to his broken down car with his hands up, placed
his hands on the top of his car, then was tased and shot. The cops
claimed he reached into the car, but the car windows were closed, so
that was clearly not possible. Closed windows, with blood running down
the window onto the door after the shooting.

The cops claim he had a gun, but that is not illegal - It's an open
carry state. Do they shoot every white man they think has a gun?

The "perp"s crime seems to be having his car break down while black.\

Your opinion, but how do you know race played a part? Would the same
thing happen if he was white and had the same size and same actions?

They claim he was on PCP, but the experts I've seen make it pretty clear
his actions were not those of a person high on PCP. He looked pretty
slow and careful to me.


I'm sure they will test to find out for sure.





Or maybe the prosecutor could see that this really looks like a bad
shoot. That seems pretty clear to me.

But no, the guy was black, so he must be a "bad dude" high on PCP ready
to kill all the cops in sight, so must be murdered immediately.


White or black, he did look like a bad dude to me. I'd not want to
tangle with him.

Really? You could see him that well in that video? It looked to me like
a guy terrified that he could be shot for nothing with his hand over his
head.

I'm not saying there are racist people as I know plenty of them. Just
because the guy is black we cannot say it was a racially biased
shooting, at least not yet. To assume it was is just as racists as it
would be if it really was. Let's see the evidence.

A black man in the US is 2.7 times as likely to be shot by police as a
white man. I am constantly amazed at the people that cannot see this
obvious problem. But really, I suppose they just refuse to see it. Read
the reports about how the police were treating blacks in Furgoson. Look
at all the shootings of unarmed blacks. We havse a problem.

Really, even the many shootings of whites are probably unnecessary. In
Germany, police shootings amount to only several a year in the whole
country. Why did our police kill 990 last year? There is clearly
something they are doing differently that works.

On 9/25/2016 1:36 PM, Bob F wrote:





Or maybe the prosecutor could see that this really looks like a bad
shoot. That seems pretty clear to me.

But no, the guy was black, so he must be a "bad dude" high on PCP ready
to kill all the cops in sight, so must be murdered immediately.


White or black, he did look like a bad dude to me. I'd not want to
tangle with him.

Really? You could see him that well in that video? It looked to me like
a guy terrified that he could be shot for nothing with his hand over his
head.

He was a big guy kind of wandering around. Bigger than me, I'd not want
to get hit by him.



I'm not saying there are no racist people as I know plenty of them. Just
because the guy is black we cannot say it was a racially biased
shooting, at least not yet. To assume it was is just as racists as it
would be if it really was. Let's see the evidence.

A black man in the US is 2.7 times as likely to be shot by police as a
white man. I am constantly amazed at the people that cannot see this
obvious problem. But really, I suppose they just refuse to see it. Read
the reports about how the police were treating blacks in Furgoson. Look
at all the shootings of unarmed blacks. We havse a problem.

Statistics are not evidence. Yes, it happens far too often but you do
not yet have evidence that he was treated any different because of his
color. Seems at though you made an assumption.

Racism has existed since the beginning of man and it is not going to go
away any time soon. Many of the protests to try and stop it seem to
have the opposite effect though. Rioting and looting keep it alive. No
way to force people to abandon it either.

On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 11:25:26 -0600, rbowman
wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Range_Acoustic_Device

How can they focus it on one person and not others?

Sounds like just the thing for a BLM riot. I remember reading about
infrasound weapons, probably in Mechanix Illllustrated c. 1960. They
used sound from 7 to 20 Hz and were capable of causing psychological
distress as well as physical damage when you cranked them up to 11.
However that was over 50 years ago. I have to assume if the weapons were
feasible, they would have been deployed by repressive governments long
ago -- not to say by modern liberal democracies.


Some years ago, we had a problem with a barking dog from a neighbor.
Drove me nuts. Started looking and found out about building a
parabolic reflector / speaker from a SAT dish -- the sound would be
amped up and sent back to the animal, causing irritation to his ears.
Don't know all the science behind it. It wasn't the dogs fault, but
the owner. So I skipped that idea.

The LRAD is the idea for riot control and move crowds back. I'm sure
some police departments can't afford them or the liberals would call
it "racist".

Sample:
https://tinyurl.com/zpnb46k

On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 10:36:45 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 9/24/2016 12:22 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/24/2016 1:33 PM, Bob F wrote:

Snip

I'm not saying there are racist people as I know plenty of them. Just
because the guy is black we cannot say it was a racially biased
shooting, at least not yet. To assume it was is just as racists as it
would be if it really was. Let's see the evidence.

A black man in the US is 2.7 times as likely to be shot by police as a
white man.

The undeniable reason is that they are about 3 times more likely to commit a crime than whites.

I am constantly amazed at the people that cannot see this
obvious problem. But really, I suppose they just refuse to see it.

You're the one that is blind to the facts.

Read
the reports about how the police were treating blacks in Furgoson. Look
at all the shootings of unarmed blacks. We havse a problem.

Really, even the many shootings of whites are probably unnecessary. In
Germany, police shootings amount to only several a year in the whole
country. Why did our police kill 990 last year?

This is just a guess... because they were breaking the law.

There is clearly
something they are doing differently that works.

Please enlighten us how things are so wonderful in Germany with all of their Muslim refugees.

On 9/25/2016 3:17 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 10:36:45 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 9/24/2016 12:22 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/24/2016 1:33 PM, Bob F wrote:

Snip

I'm not saying there are racist people as I know plenty of them. Just
because the guy is black we cannot say it was a racially biased
shooting, at least not yet. To assume it was is just as racists as it
would be if it really was. Let's see the evidence.

A black man in the US is 2.7 times as likely to be shot by police as a
white man.

The undeniable reason is that they are about 3 times more likely to commit a crime than whites.


That will be considered by many to be a racist statement. There are
some socio-economic reasons behind it though.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/7441/7...aaron-bandler#
According to Mac Donald, "A straight line can be drawn between family
breakdown and youth violence."

As economist Thomas Sowell points out, before the 1960s "most black
children were raised in two-parent families." In 2013, over 72 percent
of blacks were born out of wedlock. In Cook County –which Chicago
belongs to – 79 percent of blacks were born to single mothers in 2003,
while only 15 percent of whites were born to single mothers.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

Statistics are not evidence. Yes, it happens far too often but you do
not yet have evidence that he was treated any different because of his
color. Seems at though you made an assumption.

I've seen troubling stats that say blacks are stopped in cars in far greater
numbers in the daytime than they are at night while the day/night proportion
of white traffic stops stays pretty constant. The implication is that when
the cops can see a black driver, they are much more likely to pull them over
than a white one.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/25/us...ing-black.html

Documenting racial profiling in police work is devilishly difficult,
because a multitude of factors - including elevated violent crime rates in
many black neighborhoods - makes it hard to tease out evidence of bias from
other influences. But an analysis by The New York Times of tens of thousands
of traffic stops and years of arrest data in this racially mixed city of
280,000 [GREENSBORO, N.C]uncovered wide racial differences in measure after
measure of police conduct.

Those sorts of discrepancies appear in lots of other jurisdictions:

Those same disparities were found across North Carolina, the state that
collects the most detailed data on traffic stops. And at least some of them
showed up in the six other states that collect comprehensive traffic-stop
statistics.
Here in North Carolina's third-largest city, officers pulled over
African-American drivers for traffic violations at a rate far out of
proportion with their share of the local driving population. They used their
discretion to search black drivers or their cars more than twice as often as
white motorists - even though they found drugs and weapons significantly
more often when the driver was white.

The above observations say a lot. There are clearly racial disparities in
police tactics and those differences can explain a lot of what appears to be
a much greater involvment of blacks in crime than whites.

Officers were more likely to stop black drivers for no discernible reason.
And they were more likely to use force if the driver was black, even when
they did not encounter physical resistance.

If you arrest blacks disproportionately, they will of course show much
higher rates of criminality. But is the cart driving the horse? What do
the constant claims of "blacks are more criminalistic" mean in the face of
blacks being stopped, searched and treated violently so much more often than
whites?

--

Bobby G.

On 9/25/2016 4:21 PM, Robert Green wrote:
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

Statistics are not evidence. Yes, it happens far too often but you do
not yet have evidence that he was treated any different because of his
color. Seems at though you made an assumption.


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/25/us...ing-black.html

Documenting racial profiling in police work is devilishly difficult,
because a multitude of factors - including elevated violent crime rates in
many black neighborhoods - makes it hard to tease out evidence of bias from
other influences. But an analysis by The New York Times of tens of thousands
of traffic stops and years of arrest data in this racially mixed city of
280,000 [GREENSBORO, N.C]uncovered wide racial differences in measure after
measure of police conduct.

Those sorts of discrepancies appear in lots of other jurisdictions:


The above observations say a lot. There are clearly racial disparities in
police tactics and those differences can explain a lot of what appears to be
a much greater involvment of blacks in crime than whites.


You don't need fancy studies to know racism and profiling exists. My
point was, as soon as a white cop stops a black person they scream it is
racism. Sure, sometimes it is, but not every time so we should not jump
to conclusions right away. It is not profiling when a guy stops his car
in the middle of the street and gets out. This guy happens to be black.

Robert Green brought next idea :
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

Statistics are not evidence. Yes, it happens far too often but you do
not yet have evidence that he was treated any different because of his
color. Seems at though you made an assumption.

I've seen troubling stats that say blacks are stopped in cars in far greater
numbers in the daytime than they are at night while the day/night proportion
of white traffic stops stays pretty constant. The implication is that when
the cops can see a black driver, they are much more likely to pull them over
than a white one.

Interesting study, makes it as plain as day that African American
people don't drive as much at night as whites do. Maybe the white guys
are driving home from work and the African American guys are on street
corners selling drugs.

My point is that statistics can be used to support any view one
desires.

My personal belief is that blacks have a legitimate gripe due to the
shift from overt racism to covert racism following the negro rights
revolution. That does not mean that every time some negro thug or idiot
gets killed by cops it has to be blue on black racism.

Yes, I wrote negro, African American, and black twice each so that I
could offend as many as possible. If there is some way to not offend
anyone, please clue me in.

This PC crap is very annoying. I really don't know what to make of
this:

https://hulshofschmidt.wordpress.com...saa-community/

Bob F Sat, 24
Sep 2016 17:33:47 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

How many unarmed blacks have to get shot before you realize the
cops are creating part of the problem. Maybe they need to just
slow down a little and not just run in without evaluating the
situation.

It's really not even an issue of color. It's an issue of people who
become police that have no business carrying.

Take that 12 year old in the park with an airsoft gun. The cops
got a report of a child with a "gun" ( The caller to the police
said he thought it was a toy), and they drive up to within a few
feet of the boy, and kill him within seconds. They could have
stopped a safe distance away, and tried to figure out what was
really going on, perhaps safely behind their car, while
reinforcements were called, but chose what I consider a really
stupid approach to the situation.

I tend to agree. It didn't seem like a smart thing to do. Roll up that
close on someone you think has a rifle on them. Had the rifle been real
and the kid knew what he was doing, that could have been TWO dead cops
we'd be reading about, instead. As last time I checked, nothing on the
cruiser is highly bullet resistent and, most rifles I know of, have no
problem putting one through the car door and into the subject 'hiding'
behind it. After all, a rifle is designed to hit a target with lethal
force from a distance; it has more muzzle velocity and more power
pushing that round down the barrel.

IE: If I had a rifle on me (even a .223 configured one) and a single
cruiser approached me like they did, I'd pump a few rounds into the
drivers side windshield; Immediately taking the driver out of the game
and causing loss of control of the car. At that point, the passenger is
target practice. And, sorry, but, the passenger would be shot too; I
know he has atleast one firearm and won't just let me 'surrender'. I
just killed his friend/partner. He's going to try killing me for it,
justified or not.

I'd load the passenger side door up; if not outright killing the
passenger, rendering him unable to do anything to me. Then, just like
the police did in 1986, Causually walk up on the near lifeless
passenger and finish what I intended to do with the first few shots. He
isn't going anywhere. If he/she so much as flinched, I'd finish the
magazine into the door/passenger side compartment where the window once
was. And quickly change mags as I continued approaching to confirm my
kills.

Point being, neither of them would be going home that day, except in a
body bag. If it's my life or yours, I'm going to do my best to make
sure YOU lose, not me. I'd rather be judged by twelve later than
carried by six, if you catch my drift.

I don't give a **** what your name tag said or what your reason for
coming up on me like that was. I perceived a threat the moment you
raced towards me and I dealt with it accordingly. Even the cops around
here that I've gone shooting with know i'm a damn good shot, moving
target or stationary; if I want to put a round in you, I'm going to.
I'm just as deadly with a pistol as I am with a rifle, although I
prefer the latter.

With all that said, I wouldn't go looking to pick a fire fight, either.
But, I'll be damned if you're going to open fire on me when you don't
have all the facts and not expect return fire from ME for your trouble.

The guy in Tulsa walked to his broken down car with his hands up,
placed his hands on the top of his car, then was tased and shot.
The cops claimed he reached into the car, but the car windows were
closed, so that was clearly not possible. Closed windows, with
blood running down the window onto the door after the shooting.

The cops claim he had a gun, but that is not illegal - It's an
open carry state. Do they shoot every white man they think has a
gun?

Around here, they'll open fire without hesitation, white or black. It's
legal murder on their part in a sense.

The "perp"s crime seems to be having his car break down while
black.

They claim he was on PCP, but the experts I've seen make it pretty
clear his actions were not those of a person high on PCP. He
looked pretty slow and careful to me.

I noticed that too. Sadly, I've encountered people hopped up on speed
and PCP before; he wasn't acting like those individuals did. I realize
drugs affect people differently to a certain point... but...

Or maybe the prosecutor could see that this really looks like a
bad shoot. That seems pretty clear to me.

Even if the prosecutor does think it's a bad shoot, he/she has other
things to consider when they make their decision whether or not to
press charges. They usually take the cops side unless the video
evidence (when there is video evidence) can't be discounted. That's
about the only time they'll go ahead and press charges against the
officer. Otherwise, the officer walks away and another person becomes a
statistic.

But no, the guy was black, so he must be a "bad dude" high on PCP
ready to kill all the cops in sight, so must be murdered
immediately.

White people die by the hands of cops more often than blacks do, but,
that's not exactly a story worthy of the news. Case in point, my IT
associate who's pushing up daises. Btw, the cops were cleared in that
case too; they thought he was reaching for something, and essentially,
that seems to be their get out of a murder charge routine. And the
others on the scene more often that not cover for the ones involved in
the shooting. Ironically, they don't wear body cams here and I've
learned that for some reason, the city cruisers neglect to have video
cameras.


--
MID:
Hmmm. I most certainly don't understand how I can access a copy of a
zip file but then not be able to unzip it so I can watch it. That
seems VERY clever!
http://al.howardknight.net/msgid.cgi?ID=145716711400

Sat, 24
Sep 2016 17:49:03 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

the Taser was supposed to help with many of these situations,
when actually used, and in theory should work,
but maybe the emotions get in the way, of rationally thinking it
through, in the heat of the moment for the police...

The voltage applied by the taser isn't going to disable a large
person, let alone one on PCP (if he was). A much higher voltage
output one like 1+ million volts will, regardless of whatever drugs
you might be doing. It's more than enough to overcome whatever
resistance your body has to electricity and even takes into
consideration the barbs making poor contact. It'll arc and complete
the circuit, making you ****/**** yourself with ease. Yes, it's a bit
more likely to kill you if you have a heart condition or are on
drugs, but, it's LESS likely to kill you than several bullets being
fired by a cop who's only trained to shoot to kill.

And, I'm sorry, but if the only thing you know how to do with a
firearm is shoot to kill, it's my personal opinion, you don't have
that good of control over your weapon and you shouldn't be allowed to
carry it. There's plenty of spots on a human body that you can hit
with a live round and disable them, without causing death in the
process in many cases.

a knock out dart of some kind might be worth trying,
like they use with animals...?

It takes time for it to get in your blood stream. You still have a
chance to fire and/or otherwise harm someone.



--
MID:
Hmmm. I most certainly don't understand how I can access a copy of a
zip file but then not be able to unzip it so I can watch it. That
seems VERY clever!
http://al.howardknight.net/msgid.cgi?ID=145716711400

On 9/25/2016 3:21 PM, Robert Green wrote:
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

Statistics are not evidence. Yes, it happens far too often but you do
not yet have evidence that he was treated any different because of his
color. Seems at though you made an assumption.

I've seen troubling stats that say blacks are stopped in cars in far greater
numbers in the daytime than they are at night while the day/night proportion
of white traffic stops stays pretty constant. The implication is that when
the cops can see a black driver, they are much more likely to pull them over
than a white one.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/25/us...ing-black.html


Figures lie and liars figure. The "fact" of the matter is that
statistics can be twisted to support any position - especially easy if
not provided in context.

A decade or so claims such as this very one: drivers stopped for
"driving while black" was placed against the rather exclusive North
Shore suburb (Chicago) of Highland Park, Illinois.

Figures quoted by the whiners sure supported that contention until you
actually looked at the numbers AND reviewed some of the anecdotal
information.

The majority of the stops took place along US 41 or I-90, both major
routes through the city used by commuters. At the north end you had
Waukegan, Gurnee, North Chicago and numerous others with a good
industrial base, military and service industry presence which employed
a majority of non-white and Hispanic employees. To the south and west
you had Chicago and numerous suburbs supplying that very labor force.

Was it unreasonable to assume that perhaps the larger number of
non-whites/Hispanics stopped along the main thoroughfares was the result
of a higher percentage of non-white/Hispanics driving those roads vs.
whites?

Apparently that was the case as the whining didn't seem to get anywhere.

One of the high points of that spat was Michael Jordan's wife taking to
the MSM in defense of Highland Park (where she and MJ lived at the time)
to speak of instances where African American friends of theirs had been
stopped for traffic violations by the local police and that their
friends remarked that they were wrong, the stop was justified and they
were treated with respect - just as it should be.

On 9/25/16 1:36 PM, Bob F wrote:


A black man in the US is 2.7 times as likely to be shot by police as a
white man. I am constantly amazed at the people that cannot see this
obvious problem. But really, I suppose they just refuse to see it. Read
the reports about how the police were treating blacks in Furgoson. Look
at all the shootings of unarmed blacks. We havse a problem.

I'd like to see the citation on that one. The Washington Post
database note 494 white and 258 black were killed in the US in 2015.
The chance that a black male will be killed by a cop (250 blacks killed
divided by number of black males in the US or 21.5 million) is 0.0012%.
The chances being murdered according to the around ~6800 total in the
FBI report for 2013/above is 0.02934)

On 9/25/16 3:42 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/25/2016 3:17 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 10:36:45 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 9/24/2016 12:22 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/24/2016 1:33 PM, Bob F wrote:

Snip

I'm not saying there are racist people as I know plenty of them. Just
because the guy is black we cannot say it was a racially biased
shooting, at least not yet. To assume it was is just as racists as it
would be if it really was. Let's see the evidence.

A black man in the US is 2.7 times as likely to be shot by police as a
white man.

The undeniable reason is that they are about 3 times more likely to
commit a crime than whites.


That will be considered by many to be a racist statement. There are
some socio-economic reasons behind it though.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/7441/7...aaron-bandler#

According to Mac Donald, "A straight line can be drawn between family
breakdown and youth violence."

As economist Thomas Sowell points out, before the 1960s "most black
children were raised in two-parent families." In 2013, over 72 percent
of blacks were born out of wedlock. In Cook County –which Chicago
belongs to – 79 percent of blacks were born to single mothers in 2003,
while only 15 percent of whites were born to single mothers.



As do others. The important part being that the stats stay pretty much
the same whether you are talking about white, black or other ethnicity.
The controlling factor is intact or not household. This has also been
steady since the 70s.
Research by Sara McLanahan at Princeton University and others tells
us that boys are significantly more likely to end up in jail or prison
by the time they turn 30 if they are raised by a single mother. She
found that boys raised in a single-parent household were more than twice
as likely to be incarcerated, compared with boys raised in an intact,
married home, even after controlling for differences in parental income,
education, race, and ethnicity. Research on young men suggests they are
less likely to engage in delinquent or illegal behavior when they have
the affection, attention, and monitoring of their own mother and father.

Another researcher, Bruce Ellis of the University of Arizona found that
single female head of household also had a negative impact on girls.
About one-third of girls whose fathers left the home before they turned
6 ended up pregnant as teenagers, compared with just 5 percent of girls
whose fathers were there throughout their childhood. The divide marrowed
when controlled for parents’ socioeconomic background—but only by a few
percentage points. The research on this topic suggests that girls raised
by single mothers are less likely to be supervised, more likely to
engage in early sex, and to end up pregnant compared with girls raised
by their own married parents.

For a good discussion of the topic, I send you to Slate (hardly a
mouthpiece for the Right).
http://www.slate.com/articles/double...children_.html

Per Bob F:
Really, even the many shootings of whites are probably unnecessary. In
Germany, police shootings amount to only several a year in the whole
country. Why did our police kill 990 last year?

Germany's population looks to be about 81 million
(http://www.worldometers.info/world-p...any-population)

USA's population seems to be about 325 million as of 2014
(https://www.census.gov/popclock/

The number of people killed by police in Germany during 2015 seems to be
2
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_in_Ge rmany)

The number of people killed by police in the USA seems tb fuzzy because
of a lack of record keeping, but the Washington Post puts it at "Nearly
1,000)
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/inv...t-nearly-1000/)

2/81,000,000 = .0000000247
1,000/325,000,000 = .0000031000

So the USA rate is 125 times the German rate.

Can somebody check my third-grade arithmetic?

If it is correct, 125 seems like quite a high multiple even considering
social differences....

??
--
Pete Cresswell

On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 14:01:22 +0100, Jack wrote:

On 09/25/2016 07:28 AM, Bod wrote:
Why do selections of your police force come over to the UK to learn how our cops approach and tackle dangerous villains without guns?
There are other ways.

Scots Police Teach US Cops How To Avoid Gun Use - Sky News
news.sky.com/story/scots-police-teach-us-cops-how-to-avoid-gun-use-10151069
31 Jan 2016 - Sky cameras follow officers from Boston Police Department as they find out how violent offenders are tackled in the UK. ... American police chiefs have been to Scotland to learn new techniques in how to avoid shooting violent suspects ...
"It's about time that we step up and this is our chance," said Mr Wexler ...
__________________________________________________ __________________
What can US trigger-happy cops learn from Britain's gunless police ....
www.independent.co.uk ۼ News ۼ World ۼ Americas
12 Jun 2015 - To join the few and the proud who police Britain's streets with a gun, first ... €œI constantly remind our officers that their best weapon is their mouth,€� he said. ... officers faced regular drills challenging them to find creative ways
out ...


Will those miracle techniques keep the jihad muslims peaceful?

A few nukes into their country is the only thing that will stop them.

--
An expert is someone who takes a subject you understand and makes it sound confusing.

On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 15:42:18 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 9/25/2016 3:17 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 10:36:45 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 9/24/2016 12:22 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/24/2016 1:33 PM, Bob F wrote:

Snip

I'm not saying there are racist people as I know plenty of them. Just
because the guy is black we cannot say it was a racially biased
shooting, at least not yet. To assume it was is just as racists as it
would be if it really was. Let's see the evidence.

A black man in the US is 2.7 times as likely to be shot by police as a
white man.

The undeniable reason is that they are about 3 times more likely to commit a crime than whites.


That will be considered by many to be a racist statement. There are
some socio-economic reasons behind it though.

Hell, what isn't considered racist by the left today? If this continues it will be considered racist to take a crap
because of the color of the ****.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/7441/7...aaron-bandler#
According to Mac Donald, "A straight line can be drawn between family
breakdown and youth violence."

As economist Thomas Sowell points out, before the 1960s "most black
children were raised in two-parent families." In 2013, over 72 percent
of blacks were born out of wedlock. In Cook County –which Chicago
belongs to – 79 percent of blacks were born to single mothers in 2003,
while only 15 percent of whites were born to single mothers.