On 10/24/2015 5:26 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 10/23/2015 10:07 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 10/23/2015 6:28 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:


People have asked me why I return found things or too much change
given to
me like I've had done at a bank drive through? My answer is
always,"Because
it's not mine." ^_^

But that's the *easy* answer! The tougher question is "what's your price?"
I.e., what amount would cause you to compromise your principles?? Of
course, it's easy to say "nothing!" -- until that amount is actually
sitting in front of you! ;-)

I figure the higher the dollar ammount, the
higher the penalty to pay, either through
God or the courts. So, a higher dollar figure
gives me more reason to be honest.

For small amounts, I figure it's not worth compromising my
"integrity", etc. (of course, my "situation in life" is such
that I'm not "sweating the little things" -- if I was having
a hard time feeding my family, there would be other pressures
involved!)

And, for *big* amounts, I'd consider it hypocritical: you're
not willing to sell your soul for $20 but would for $20,000?
I.e., there's a blatant inconsistency there! A "rule" (that
you impose on yourself) should be self-consistent.

Likewise, is there a difference between finding $X in cash
vs. $X worth of gold vs. some "commodity" worth $X? If so,
then what's the *rule* you're operating under? :

Curiously, I never accept gifts from folks -- friend, etc.
And, will never accept payment for something I did by way
of a *favor*. (if I'm being paid, then it's a job; I can
REFUSE any job that I choose! At the same time, I am under
no obligation to perform a requested FAVOR!)

This extends to the most trivial situations: e.g., I refuse
to accept "certificates of appreciation" (from organizations
where I volunteer my time), "thank you notes" (*SAY* "Thank You",
no need to spend $1 on a card that says it!), etc.

OTOH, I have no problem accepting other folks' "discards"
(BUT, it has to truly be a discard and not something made to
APPEAR as a discard) -- especially if said item is broken
(then, it's usually pretty obvious as to WHY it is a discard)

So, there is some consistency, here -- though, at times, subtle.

On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 20:32:30 -0400, Earl wrote
in

I receive products on a regular basis to review. I do not have to
return these products.

Last Friday I received a 2000 watt portable generator. I have not even
opened the box. Today I come home, and there is yet another, same kind
and brand of generator sitting on my doorstep. Surely someone in
shipping messed up. I now have 2, but once I review a product, I'm not
permitted to review the exact same product.

WWYD?

Legally they are "lost" items, and you know who the rightful owner is.
It's the entity that shipped it to you. If you keep the item or sell
it, you have stolen it.
--
Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

Vic Smith wrote:

I never could understand how often armored truck doors popped open,
depositing cash bags on the road.
I guess they fixed the latches, since I've haven't heard about it
happening in the past 20 years or so.

Now they use helicopters.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/helicopter-drop.asp

On 10/24/2015 12:06 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, October 23, 2015 at 10:42:38 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:


I may be an atheist but that doesn't mean I don't believe their
is a Right and a Wrong.

How are those 2 things even remotely connected?


My Chinese neighbor is a tea part supporter so he is both a Right and a
Wong.

On Sat, 24 Oct 2015 13:56:30 -0500, CRNG
wrote:

Legally they are "lost" items, and you know who the rightful owner is.
It's the entity that shipped it to you. If you keep the item or sell
it, you have stolen it.

_Fifty pounds of pot shipped to the wrong address_

"Police in a New Jersey town are asking the person who was expecting
50 pounds of marijuana in the mail to come claim the package."

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/10/23/fifty-pounds-pot-shipped-to-wrong-address/

On Sat, 24 Oct 2015 13:08:51 -0400, Frank "frank wrote:

Being religious is not necessary for one to behave ethically.

+1

I was offered "gratuities" from convicts. I explained to them that
they could not "afford me". If they offered a price I said it was not
enough. I had a few chances to compromise myself, but never fell for
the game.

I could have made millions, ended up in jail but they could not afford
my price. It was never enough. I don't fall for the notion that "every
man has his price." Unless they are selfish.

On 10/24/2015 1:15 PM, Oren wrote:

I could have made millions, ended up in jail but they could not afford
my price. It was never enough. I don't fall for the notion that "every
man has his price." Unless they are selfish.

There's a difference between "having a price" WHERE YOU COMPROMISE
YOURSELF and having a price at which you start *thinking* about it
(regardless of whether or not you can ever "be bought").

The interesting aspect is sorting out where your "strict resolve"
begins to show signs of weakness -- when you start rethinking that
resolve! At which point you start critically analyzing whether or
not you'd ever be held accountable, whether your friends/family would
ever be able to figure it out, etc.

Imagine deep sea diving, alone, and coming across a trove of golden
coins. Would you promptly report your find? Would you consider
exploring ways to "fence" it? Would you invest in a small jewelers
furnace and recast the coins into untraceable bars? etc.

If you even *think* about these things, then you've acknowledged that
there is the potential for compromise in your beliefs -- and you
are now relying on "mental discipline" to avoid that trap.

If you *think* about another woman, is that any different than
actually "being with" that other woman? (in some cultures, the
two are indistinguishable) Given that you can't control the
actions of others, what happens when you are "forced" to think
about this possibility (e.g., a woman throws herself at you)?

Few people are robots...

On 10/24/2015 4:15 PM, Oren wrote:


I don't fall for the notion that "every
man has his price." Unless they are selfish.


I'd substitute "most" for 'every". I've seen many an allegedly honest
person change for a price. Maybe not for murder, but a little lie here
and there and they still go to church on Sunday..

On Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:38:51 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 10/24/2015 4:15 PM, Oren wrote:


I don't fall for the notion that "every
man has his price." Unless they are selfish.


I'd substitute "most" for 'every". I've seen many an allegedly honest
person change for a price. Maybe not for murder, but a little lie here
and there and they still go to church on Sunday..

You have the back row Baptist and the front row Baptist

On Sat, 24 Oct 2015 13:35:56 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

There's a difference between "having a price" WHERE YOU COMPROMISE
YOURSELF and having a price at which you start *thinking* about it
(regardless of whether or not you can ever "be bought").

What is your price? What gets you to thinking?

Can you afford me? I doubt it.

On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 3:35:45 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 10/24/2015 1:15 PM, Oren wrote:

I could have made millions, ended up in jail but they could not afford
my price. It was never enough. I don't fall for the notion that "every
man has his price." Unless they are selfish.

There's a difference between "having a price" WHERE YOU COMPROMISE
YOURSELF and having a price at which you start *thinking* about it
(regardless of whether or not you can ever "be bought").

The interesting aspect is sorting out where your "strict resolve"
begins to show signs of weakness -- when you start rethinking that
resolve! At which point you start critically analyzing whether or
not you'd ever be held accountable, whether your friends/family would
ever be able to figure it out, etc.

Imagine deep sea diving, alone, and coming across a trove of golden
coins. Would you promptly report your find? Would you consider
exploring ways to "fence" it? Would you invest in a small jewelers
furnace and recast the coins into untraceable bars? etc.

If you even *think* about these things, then you've acknowledged that
there is the potential for compromise in your beliefs -- and you
are now relying on "mental discipline" to avoid that trap.

If you *think* about another woman, is that any different than
actually "being with" that other woman? (in some cultures, the
two are indistinguishable) Given that you can't control the
actions of others, what happens when you are "forced" to think
about this possibility (e.g., a woman throws herself at you)?

Few people are robots...

The person or persons who lost the gold coins in the ocean are long dead and were evil Conquistadors so frak em. Or perhaps they were slavers who kidnapped Africans from the jungle then took them to The New World to sell? ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Gold Monster

On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 5:10:48 PM UTC-5, Oren wrote:
On Sat, 24 Oct 2015 13:35:56 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

There's a difference between "having a price" WHERE YOU COMPROMISE
YOURSELF and having a price at which you start *thinking* about it
(regardless of whether or not you can ever "be bought").

What is your price? What gets you to thinking?

Can you afford me? I doubt it.

It could depend on the reward? ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Money Monster

On 10/24/2015 2:12 PM, Earl wrote:
On 10/24/2015 8:25 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
What if it is noticed and you were not honest about it? Makes you look
like a schmuck and someone still gets in trouble.

Could be Earl Schmuck in trouble instead of
shipper who made a mistake.

I'm in favor of notify them.

Chris,

I see you've never changed. You're still the biggest idiot since the
HVAC days. BTW, are you still a blimp?

You are just as sociable and complimintary
as ever. BTW, are you still insulting?

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 10/24/2015 3:05 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

My Chinese neighbor is a tea part supporter so he is both a Right and a
Wong.

Did you hear what the doctor said when two
Chinese adults had a caucasian baby?

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 10/24/2015 3:10 PM, Oren wrote:
On Sat, 24 Oct 2015 13:35:56 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

There's a difference between "having a price" WHERE YOU COMPROMISE
YOURSELF and having a price at which you start *thinking* about it
(regardless of whether or not you can ever "be bought").

What is your price? What gets you to thinking?

I'm *always* thinking: is the person who likely lost this
nearby? Can I locate them? What will I do if I can't? Who
would be hte "fallback" custodian of this item? Would they
likely "do the right thing" -- or would they simply consider
it a windfall? etc.

Can you afford me? I doubt it.

You might discover that there are other things that are "worth more"
than money.

Few people, I think, *truly* know themselves. Experience brings
out aspects that one might not think were lurking beneath the
surface!

(Ever have a lovely lady slide her hands on your crotch while
your wife was in the next room?)

On Sat, 24 Oct 2015 17:02:28 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

Few people, I think, *truly* know themselves. Experience brings
out aspects that one might not think were lurking beneath the
surface!

(Ever have a lovely lady slide her hands on your crotch while
your wife was in the next room?)

Did you?! Was her finger near your anus and you may of thought it was
stimulating?

On 10/24/2015 5:16 PM, Oren wrote:
On Sat, 24 Oct 2015 17:02:28 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

Few people, I think, *truly* know themselves. Experience brings
out aspects that one might not think were lurking beneath the
surface!

(Ever have a lovely lady slide her hands on your crotch while
your wife was in the next room?)

Did you?!

Yes. Alarming to see how disturbing this sort of thing is, in
practice (I suspect if you asked most men how they'd react,
they'd indicate it a WELCOME experience)

Was her finger near your anus and you may of thought it was
stimulating?

Not keen on anything being around my ass, thankyouverymuch.

nitpick: "may HAVE" not "may OF"

On 10/24/2015 8:02 PM, Don Y wrote:

(Ever have a lovely lady slide her hands on your crotch while
your wife was in the next room?)


No, but I'm sure I'd tell her not to.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 10/24/2015 6:39 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 10/24/2015 8:02 PM, Don Y wrote:

(Ever have a lovely lady slide her hands on your crotch while
your wife was in the next room?)

No, but I'm sure I'd tell her not to.

I suspect you'll find that "tell her" is an understatement!

On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 8:47:34 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 10/24/2015 5:16 PM, Oren wrote:
On Sat, 24 Oct 2015 17:02:28 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

Few people, I think, *truly* know themselves. Experience brings
out aspects that one might not think were lurking beneath the
surface!

(Ever have a lovely lady slide her hands on your crotch while
your wife was in the next room?)

Did you?!

Yes. Alarming to see how disturbing this sort of thing is, in
practice (I suspect if you asked most men how they'd react,
they'd indicate it a WELCOME experience)

Was her finger near your anus and you may of thought it was
stimulating?

Not keen on anything being around my ass, thankyouverymuch.

nitpick: "may HAVE" not "may OF"

I may be an atheist but that doesn't mean I don't believe their
is a Right and a Wrong.

Nitpick: "there" not "their"

On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 12:24:23 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 10/24/2015 9:06 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, October 23, 2015 at 10:42:38 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:


I may be an atheist but that doesn't mean I don't believe their
is a Right and a Wrong.

How are those 2 things even remotely connected?

~30 years ago, I had a discussion with a "Holy Roller"
neighbor in which I mentioned my atheism. Mouth agape,
her reply was: "But how do you know what's Right and
Wrong??" -- which left *me* with my mouth agape: if
you need some guy in a fancy robe to tell you Right vs. Wrong,
I'm SURE GLAD you spend a day each week listening to
SOMEONE who gives you that perspective!

So, ~30 years ago some idiot made a comment that made no sense.

Since anyone with half a brain knows that the two items have nothing to do
with each other, why did you feel a need to bring it up?

On 10/24/2015 8:58 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 12:24:23 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 10/24/2015 9:06 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, October 23, 2015 at 10:42:38 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:


I may be an atheist but that doesn't mean I don't believe their
is a Right and a Wrong.

How are those 2 things even remotely connected?

~30 years ago, I had a discussion with a "Holy Roller"
neighbor in which I mentioned my atheism. Mouth agape,
her reply was: "But how do you know what's Right and
Wrong??" -- which left *me* with my mouth agape: if
you need some guy in a fancy robe to tell you Right vs. Wrong,
I'm SURE GLAD you spend a day each week listening to
SOMEONE who gives you that perspective!

So, ~30 years ago some idiot made a comment that made no sense.

Since anyone with half a brain knows that the two items have nothing to do
with each other, why did you feel a need to bring it up?

By your definition, most of the world has less than half a brain.
People use religion to give them their notion of "morality"; the rules
by which they (in theory, "strive to") live their lives.

The 10 Commandments, the Torah, Koran, etc. all offer rules and
guidelines for their followers as they pass through "earthly life".
They define what's Right and Wrong in the contexts of their
teachings.

What role do *you* think religion plays in the world? In people's
lives? Just a reason to "get together" on a regular basis??
A chance to play BINGO?

On 10/24/2015 10:03 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 10/24/2015 6:39 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 10/24/2015 8:02 PM, Don Y wrote:

(Ever have a lovely lady slide her hands on your crotch while
your wife was in the next room?)

No, but I'm sure I'd tell her not to.

I suspect you'll find that "tell her" is an understatement!

What do you say to that woman, with two black eyes?
Nothing; you just told her twice.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 11:48:16 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

What role do *you* think religion plays in the world? In people's
lives? Just a reason to "get together" on a regular basis??
A chance to play BINGO?

We need to be "centered". We have too many distractions, and yes *bad* examples that lead us astray. And if you are a participating, regular member...everyone looks out for you and yours'.

On 10/25/2015 4:07 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 10/24/2015 10:03 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 10/24/2015 6:39 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 10/24/2015 8:02 PM, Don Y wrote:

(Ever have a lovely lady slide her hands on your crotch while
your wife was in the next room?)

No, but I'm sure I'd tell her not to.

I suspect you'll find that "tell her" is an understatement!

What do you say to that woman, with two black eyes?
Nothing; you just told her twice.

There's no need for violence. You simply tell her that you're not
interested! But, chances are, you won't *calmly* be making
that statement!

(well, I dunno. Maybe *you* would! In *my* case, her actions
were so far "over the line" that it wasn't a gentle/polite rebuke)

As a result, I am overly cautious when women make exceedingly
"generous" comments regarding something I've done for them/kids/etc.
or something I've baked that they are too ebullient in their
expressions of gratitude. SWMBO gets annoyed at the gratuitous
marriage proposals and other "innuendo"... ("any more at home like
him?" "let me know if you get tired of him" and other far more
"racey" comments)

On Sunday, October 25, 2015 at 12:48:16 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 10/24/2015 8:58 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 12:24:23 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 10/24/2015 9:06 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, October 23, 2015 at 10:42:38 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:


I may be an atheist but that doesn't mean I don't believe their
is a Right and a Wrong.

How are those 2 things even remotely connected?

~30 years ago, I had a discussion with a "Holy Roller"
neighbor in which I mentioned my atheism. Mouth agape,
her reply was: "But how do you know what's Right and
Wrong??" -- which left *me* with my mouth agape: if
you need some guy in a fancy robe to tell you Right vs. Wrong,
I'm SURE GLAD you spend a day each week listening to
SOMEONE who gives you that perspective!

So, ~30 years ago some idiot made a comment that made no sense.

Since anyone with half a brain knows that the two items have nothing to do
with each other, why did you feel a need to bring it up?

By your definition, most of the world has less than half a brain.
People use religion to give them their notion of "morality"; the rules
by which they (in theory, "strive to") live their lives.

The 10 Commandments, the Torah, Koran, etc. all offer rules and
guidelines for their followers as they pass through "earthly life".
They define what's Right and Wrong in the contexts of their
teachings.

What role do *you* think religion plays in the world? In people's
lives? Just a reason to "get together" on a regular basis??
A chance to play BINGO?

You really have no clue what my initial comment was all about, do you?

Let me make it simple:

My question had nothing - absolutely nothing - about the role of religion in anyone's life. I couldn't
care less what your religious beliefs are. My question was nothing more than an inquiry into why
you chose to connect 2 things that have no connection

For some reason, you chose to make a connection between atheism and knowing right from
wrong.

That's akin to saying:

I may be Japanese, but that doesn't mean I don't believe their (sic) is a Right and a Wrong.

Or

I may be short, but that doesn't mean I don't believe their (sic) is a Right and a Wrong.

Or

I may be female, but that doesn't mean I don't believe their (sic) is a Right and a Wrong.

There was simply no reason to make the comparison you made, expect perhaps, because some
idiot made a stupid comment ~30 years ago. Do you honestly think that people need to be
told that atheists know the difference between right and wrong?

Again, don't turn this into a religious discussion. Leave it right where it started, with a
connection between 2 things that had no need to be connected.

On Sunday, October 25, 2015 at 7:26:44 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 10/25/2015 4:07 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 10/24/2015 10:03 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 10/24/2015 6:39 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 10/24/2015 8:02 PM, Don Y wrote:

(Ever have a lovely lady slide her hands on your crotch while
your wife was in the next room?)

No, but I'm sure I'd tell her not to.

I suspect you'll find that "tell her" is an understatement!

What do you say to that woman, with two black eyes?
Nothing; you just told her twice.

There's no need for violence. You simply tell her that you're not
interested! But, chances are, you won't *calmly* be making
that statement!

(well, I dunno. Maybe *you* would! In *my* case, her actions
were so far "over the line" that it wasn't a gentle/polite rebuke)

As a result, I am overly cautious when women make exceedingly
"generous" comments regarding something I've done for them/kids/etc.
or something I've baked that they are too ebullient in their
expressions of gratitude. SWMBO gets annoyed at the gratuitous
marriage proposals and other "innuendo"... ("any more at home like
him?" "let me know if you get tired of him" and other far more
"racey" comments)

Your SWMBO gets annoyed when other women make positive comments about you?

Interesting. That could mean a number of things.

My SWMBO smiles in a superior way because she knows she's got what they want and that
he's not going anywhere because she also knows that he's happy with what *he's* got.

On 10/25/2015 3:46 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, October 25, 2015 at 12:48:16 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 10/24/2015 8:58 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 12:24:23 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 10/24/2015 9:06 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, October 23, 2015 at 10:42:38 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:


I may be an atheist but that doesn't mean I don't believe their
is a Right and a Wrong.

How are those 2 things even remotely connected?

~30 years ago, I had a discussion with a "Holy Roller"
neighbor in which I mentioned my atheism. Mouth agape,
her reply was: "But how do you know what's Right and
Wrong??" -- which left *me* with my mouth agape: if
you need some guy in a fancy robe to tell you Right vs. Wrong,
I'm SURE GLAD you spend a day each week listening to
SOMEONE who gives you that perspective!

So, ~30 years ago some idiot made a comment that made no sense.

Since anyone with half a brain knows that the two items have nothing to do
with each other, why did you feel a need to bring it up?

By your definition, most of the world has less than half a brain.
People use religion to give them their notion of "morality"; the rules
by which they (in theory, "strive to") live their lives.

The 10 Commandments, the Torah, Koran, etc. all offer rules and
guidelines for their followers as they pass through "earthly life".
They define what's Right and Wrong in the contexts of their
teachings.

What role do *you* think religion plays in the world? In people's
lives? Just a reason to "get together" on a regular basis??
A chance to play BINGO?

You really have no clue what my initial comment was all about, do you?

Let me make it simple:

My question had nothing - absolutely nothing - about the role of religion in anyone's life. I couldn't
care less what your religious beliefs are. My question was nothing more than an inquiry into why
you chose to connect 2 things that have no connection

You still don't see it, do you?

It is illegal to drive while drunk. Drunk driving is WRONG. There are
SECULAR laws that state this. Nothing in any religious texts make this claim!

In most jurisdictions, extramarital affairs are not ILLEGAL. Yet, they
are considered "WRONG". Because of religion.

There is nothing illegal about me saying "Christ, what a screw up".
Society says this is OK.

Religion says otherwise.

Society says it's perfectly acceptable to conduct business on Friday evenings,
Sundays, etc. Nothing Wrong about it.

Yet, jews would consider Friday night business to be Wrong. Christians
would consider Sunday business to be wrong.

Clearly, religion plays a role in deciding what is Right and what is Wrong.

For some reason, you chose to make a connection between atheism and knowing right from
wrong.

That's akin to saying:

I may be Japanese, but that doesn't mean I don't believe their (sic) is a Right and a Wrong.

Being Japanese has nothing to do with Right or Wrong.

Or

I may be short, but that doesn't mean I don't believe their (sic) is a Right and a Wrong.

Height has nothing to do with Right or Wrong.

Or

I may be female, but that doesn't mean I don't believe their (sic) is a Right and a Wrong.

Gender has nothing to do with Right or Wrong.

There was simply no reason to make the comparison you made, expect perhaps, because some
idiot made a stupid comment ~30 years ago. Do you honestly think that people need to be
told that atheists know the difference between right and wrong?

Again, don't turn this into a religious discussion. Leave it right where it started, with a
connection between 2 things that had no need to be connected.

RELIGION HAS *EVERYTHING* TO DO WITH RIGHT AND WRONG. By extension, LACK
of religious belief leaves open the possibility that there is no "moral
compass" -- no "teachings" to impose that sense of Right or Wrong.

I can COVET your belongings, your wife, take YOUR lord's name in vain,
do business on YOUR holy days ... because none of those things are
WRONG (illegal) in the eyes of a secular (non religious) world.

You would be (personally) well served reading some of the writings -- pro
and con -- regarding atheism v theism. See some of the "issues" that
are commonly addressed and how both sides "spin" these -- in an attempt
to claim their opinions are "authoritative". A read through most of the
theistic writings will leave you with the very distinct impression that
these folks believe their theism endows them with this "Knowledge"
(as an absolute -- yet, based on an intangible "belief").

I'll now ignore your posts. In a day or two of doing so, my server will
spare me the distraction of even *seeing* them. Clearly, we have nothing
to say to each other that the other is willing to hear.

On Sunday, October 25, 2015 at 6:11:04 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

It is illegal to drive while drunk. Drunk driving is WRONG. There are
SECULAR laws that state this. Nothing in any religious texts make this claim!

How about the 5th Commandment?

Society says it's perfectly acceptable to conduct business on Friday evenings,
Sundays, etc. Nothing Wrong about it.

Yet, jews would consider Friday night business to be Wrong. Christians
would consider Sunday business to be wrong.

You *can* conduct business, but not exchange money.

On 10/25/2015 5:23 PM, bob_villa wrote:
On Sunday, October 25, 2015 at 6:11:04 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

It is illegal to drive while drunk. Drunk driving is WRONG. There are
SECULAR laws that state this. Nothing in any religious texts make this claim!

How about the 5th Commandment?

No one has been killed! Driving drunk doesn't imply a death!

Society says it's perfectly acceptable to conduct business on Friday evenings,
Sundays, etc. Nothing Wrong about it.

Yet, jews would consider Friday night business to be Wrong. Christians
would consider Sunday business to be wrong.

You *can* conduct business, but not exchange money.

Fine:
Society says it's perfectly acceptable to EXCHANGE MONEY on Friday evenings,
Sundays, etc. Nothing Wrong about it.

Yet, jews would consider Friday night MONEY EXCHANGING to be Wrong.
Christians would consider Sunday MONEY EXCHANGING to be wrong.

On Sunday, October 25, 2015 at 7:32:29 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 10/25/2015 5:23 PM, bob_villa wrote:
On Sunday, October 25, 2015 at 6:11:04 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

It is illegal to drive while drunk. Drunk driving is WRONG. There are
SECULAR laws that state this. Nothing in any religious texts make this claim!

How about the 5th Commandment?

No one has been killed! Driving drunk doesn't imply a death!

Too often is does...and the 5th also applies to tattoos (or piercings), drugs, or gluttony.

Society says it's perfectly acceptable to conduct business on Friday evenings,
Sundays, etc. Nothing Wrong about it.

Yet, jews would consider Friday night business to be Wrong. Christians
would consider Sunday business to be wrong.

You *can* conduct business, but not exchange money.

Fine:
Society says it's perfectly acceptable to EXCHANGE MONEY on Friday evenings,
Sundays, etc. Nothing Wrong about it.

Yet, jews would consider Friday night MONEY EXCHANGING to be Wrong.
Christians would consider Sunday MONEY EXCHANGING to be wrong.

Now you're being juvenile by capping! ( ͡° ʖ̯ ͡°)

On Sunday, October 25, 2015 at 7:11:04 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 10/25/2015 3:46 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, October 25, 2015 at 12:48:16 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 10/24/2015 8:58 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, October 24, 2015 at 12:24:23 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 10/24/2015 9:06 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, October 23, 2015 at 10:42:38 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:


I may be an atheist but that doesn't mean I don't believe their
is a Right and a Wrong.

How are those 2 things even remotely connected?

~30 years ago, I had a discussion with a "Holy Roller"
neighbor in which I mentioned my atheism. Mouth agape,
her reply was: "But how do you know what's Right and
Wrong??" -- which left *me* with my mouth agape: if
you need some guy in a fancy robe to tell you Right vs. Wrong,
I'm SURE GLAD you spend a day each week listening to
SOMEONE who gives you that perspective!

So, ~30 years ago some idiot made a comment that made no sense.

Since anyone with half a brain knows that the two items have nothing to do
with each other, why did you feel a need to bring it up?

By your definition, most of the world has less than half a brain.
People use religion to give them their notion of "morality"; the rules
by which they (in theory, "strive to") live their lives.

The 10 Commandments, the Torah, Koran, etc. all offer rules and
guidelines for their followers as they pass through "earthly life".
They define what's Right and Wrong in the contexts of their
teachings.

What role do *you* think religion plays in the world? In people's
lives? Just a reason to "get together" on a regular basis??
A chance to play BINGO?

You really have no clue what my initial comment was all about, do you?

Let me make it simple:

My question had nothing - absolutely nothing - about the role of religion in anyone's life. I couldn't
care less what your religious beliefs are. My question was nothing more than an inquiry into why
you chose to connect 2 things that have no connection

You still don't see it, do you?

It is illegal to drive while drunk. Drunk driving is WRONG. There are
SECULAR laws that state this. Nothing in any religious texts make this claim!

In most jurisdictions, extramarital affairs are not ILLEGAL. Yet, they
are considered "WRONG". Because of religion.

There is nothing illegal about me saying "Christ, what a screw up".
Society says this is OK.

Religion says otherwise.

Society says it's perfectly acceptable to conduct business on Friday evenings,
Sundays, etc. Nothing Wrong about it.

Yet, jews would consider Friday night business to be Wrong. Christians
would consider Sunday business to be wrong.

Clearly, religion plays a role in deciding what is Right and what is Wrong.

For some reason, you chose to make a connection between atheism and knowing right from
wrong.

That's akin to saying:

I may be Japanese, but that doesn't mean I don't believe their (sic) is a Right and a Wrong.

Being Japanese has nothing to do with Right or Wrong.

Neither does being an atheist. Thanks for making my point.


Or

I may be short, but that doesn't mean I don't believe their (sic) is a Right and a Wrong.

Height has nothing to do with Right or Wrong.

Neither does being an atheist. Thank you for making my point.


Or

I may be female, but that doesn't mean I don't believe their (sic) is a Right and a Wrong.

Gender has nothing to do with Right or Wrong.


Neither does being an atheist. Thank you for making my point.

There was simply no reason to make the comparison you made, expect perhaps, because some
idiot made a stupid comment ~30 years ago. Do you honestly think that people need to be
told that atheists know the difference between right and wrong?

Again, don't turn this into a religious discussion. Leave it right where it started, with a
connection between 2 things that had no need to be connected.

RELIGION HAS *EVERYTHING* TO DO WITH RIGHT AND WRONG.

Why are you yelling? You do tend to get overly excited during these discussions.

By extension, LACK
of religious belief leaves open the possibility that there is no "moral
compass" -- no "teachings" to impose that sense of Right or Wrong.

People can learn right from wrong, respect vs. disrespect, being nice vs. being an a-hole without
any religious teachings. When a child is "taught" to be nice to other children, is it done only in
Sunday schools/synagogues/mosques? No, it's done in living rooms, school yards and ball fields
with no mention of anyone's higher power or religion.


I can COVET your belongings, your wife, take YOUR lord's name in vain,
do business on YOUR holy days ... because none of those things are
WRONG (illegal) in the eyes of a secular (non religious) world.

You would be (personally) well served reading some of the writings -- pro
and con -- regarding atheism v theism. See some of the "issues" that
are commonly addressed and how both sides "spin" these -- in an attempt
to claim their opinions are "authoritative". A read through most of the
theistic writings will leave you with the very distinct impression that
these folks believe their theism endows them with this "Knowledge"
(as an absolute -- yet, based on an intangible "belief").

Just because people take sides and claim to be the "authority" doesn't make
either side right. If you have to "spin" things, then you are trying to convince others
of things that you don't truly belief yourself.

When I hear spin, I stop listening because nothing that follows is worth the words that
are spewed.



I'll now ignore your posts.

Which is what most people say when they finally realize that they completely missed the
original point and started arguing about something that was never brought up.

In a day or two of doing so, my server will
spare me the distraction of even *seeing* them. Clearly, we have nothing
to say to each other that the other is willing to hear.

I hear everything you are saying. I just don't necessarily feel that your original comment was
needed or even makes sense. You implied that we think that atheists don't know that their (sic)
is a difference between right and wrong. Take a poll. I'll bet you'll find that most people don't
hold that belief.

On 10/25/2015 5:42 PM, bob_villa wrote:
On Sunday, October 25, 2015 at 7:32:29 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 10/25/2015 5:23 PM, bob_villa wrote:
On Sunday, October 25, 2015 at 6:11:04 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

It is illegal to drive while drunk. Drunk driving is WRONG. There are
SECULAR laws that state this. Nothing in any religious texts make this claim!

How about the 5th Commandment?

No one has been killed! Driving drunk doesn't imply a death!

Too often is does...and the 5th also applies to tattoos (or piercings), drugs, or gluttony.

Ah, I guess that must have been in one of the addenda to the original
commandments?

Society says it's perfectly acceptable to conduct business on Friday evenings,
Sundays, etc. Nothing Wrong about it.

Yet, jews would consider Friday night business to be Wrong. Christians
would consider Sunday business to be wrong.

You *can* conduct business, but not exchange money.

Fine:
Society says it's perfectly acceptable to EXCHANGE MONEY on Friday evenings,
Sundays, etc. Nothing Wrong about it.

Yet, jews would consider Friday night MONEY EXCHANGING to be Wrong.
Christians would consider Sunday MONEY EXCHANGING to be wrong.

Now you're being juvenile by capping! ( ͡° ʖ̯ ͡°)

How else would you suggest I draw attention to the difference
between the original post and this version of it? Use *red* ink??

On Sunday, October 25, 2015 at 7:56:06 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

How else would you suggest I draw attention to the difference
between the original post and this version of it? Use *red* ink??

There are many ways...at least as many as your irrelevant and unnecessary comeback responses.

On 10/25/2015 8:32 PM, Don Y wrote:

You *can* conduct business, but not exchange money.

Fine:
Society says it's perfectly acceptable to EXCHANGE MONEY on Friday
evenings,
Sundays, etc. Nothing Wrong about it.

Yet, jews would consider Friday night MONEY EXCHANGING to be Wrong.
Christians would consider Sunday MONEY EXCHANGING to be wrong.


Catholics are not supposed to perform servile work on Sunday. You can
exchange money by using your church envelope.

https://www.catholicculture.org/cult...x.cfm?id=36428
Originally the work done by serfs from which they were freed on Sundays
and holy days in order to worship God. Until recently, servile work,
forbidden on Sundays, was work that was chiefly physical. At present
servile work is heavy manual labor, or such work as in a given society
people commonly associate with strenuous effort and do not engage in
when they have the freedom to avoid it. Implicit in the Church's
prohibition of servile work on Sundays is fidelity to the divine
commandment to keep holy the Sabbath. This means avoiding activities
that would hinder renewal of soul and body, i.e., needless work or
business, unnecessary shopping or housekeeping.

On 10/25/2015 6:05 PM, bob_villa wrote:
On Sunday, October 25, 2015 at 7:56:06 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

How else would you suggest I draw attention to the difference
between the original post and this version of it? Use *red* ink??

There are many ways...at least as many as your irrelevant and unnecessary comeback responses.

You didn't seem to understand the role of the caps. And, resorted to an
ad hominem attack on my use of them. Or, were you just being juvenile?

On Sunday, October 25, 2015 at 9:13:11 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 10/25/2015 6:05 PM, bob_villa wrote:
On Sunday, October 25, 2015 at 7:56:06 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

How else would you suggest I draw attention to the difference
between the original post and this version of it? Use *red* ink??

There are many ways...at least as many as your irrelevant and unnecessary comeback responses.

You didn't seem to understand the role of the caps. And, resorted to an
ad hominem attack on my use of them. Or, were you just being juvenile?

Here's just one of *many* sites that offer alternatives to using caps for emphasis, since caps
are commonly considered to be the internet equivalent of yelling. Nobody likes to be yelled
at, so you turn off more readers then you impress when you yell - or when they think you
are yelling, even when you think you are not.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1...e-code-yelling

On 10/25/2015 6:08 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 10/25/2015 8:32 PM, Don Y wrote:

You *can* conduct business, but not exchange money.

Fine:
Society says it's perfectly acceptable to EXCHANGE MONEY on Friday
evenings,
Sundays, etc. Nothing Wrong about it.

Yet, jews would consider Friday night MONEY EXCHANGING to be Wrong.
Christians would consider Sunday MONEY EXCHANGING to be wrong.

Catholics are not supposed to perform servile work on Sunday. You can exchange
money by using your church envelope.

https://www.catholicculture.org/cult...x.cfm?id=36428
Originally the work done by serfs from which they were freed on Sundays and
holy days in order to worship God. Until recently, servile work, forbidden on
Sundays, was work that was chiefly physical. At present servile work is heavy
manual labor, or such work as in a given society people commonly associate with
strenuous effort and do not engage in when they have the freedom to avoid it.
Implicit in the Church's prohibition of servile work on Sundays is fidelity to
the divine commandment to keep holy the Sabbath. This means avoiding activities
that would hinder renewal of soul and body, i.e., needless work or business,
unnecessary shopping or housekeeping.

Christianity includes more than just Catholics.

Historically, the (christian) sabath (sat PM- sun) was intended to be a
time void of commerce and recreation. At one time, there were laws against
drinking, working, traveling, etc. on Sunday.

As a kid, I can recall the *beer* display in the supermarket being
covered (with a giant "window shade" sort of device) after 8PM
on Saturday -- even though the supermarket remained open (and into
Sunday!). Yet, we could drive across the state line and buy
until 11P. Here, there are no prohibitions regarding beer/liquor on
Sundays.

In Colorado, you couldn't sell a car on Sunday. Here, the dealerships
are typically closed on Sunday -- but, my understanding is that this
is by convention, not law (i.e., you can find select vendors who are
willing to do business on Sunday).

I.e., all of these things are still "wrong" in the religious sense
yet the secular world has decided they are "OK".

OTOH, the catholic church seems to routinely decide to rewrite
what's "acceptable" -- in a manner that is suggestive of a marketing
campaign! (gays, second marriages, etc.) I wonder if they've got some
grand master copy of their bible locked away someplace and a big
jar of WhiteOut... :

On Sunday, October 25, 2015 at 9:37:42 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, October 25, 2015 at 9:13:11 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 10/25/2015 6:05 PM, bob_villa wrote:
On Sunday, October 25, 2015 at 7:56:06 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:

How else would you suggest I draw attention to the difference
between the original post and this version of it? Use *red* ink??

There are many ways...at least as many as your irrelevant and unnecessary comeback responses.

You didn't seem to understand the role of the caps. And, resorted to an
ad hominem attack on my use of them. Or, were you just being juvenile?

Here's just one of *many* sites that offer alternatives to using caps for emphasis, since caps
are commonly considered to be the internet equivalent of yelling. Nobody likes to be yelled
at, so you turn off more readers then you impress when you yell - or when they think you
are yelling, even when you think you are not.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1...e-code-yelling

Nitpick: than not then

Durn autocorrect...

On 10/25/2015 9:42 PM, Don Y wrote:


As a kid, I can recall the *beer* display in the supermarket being
covered (with a giant "window shade" sort of device) after 8PM
on Saturday -- even though the supermarket remained open (and into
Sunday!). Yet, we could drive across the state line and buy
until 11P. Here, there are no prohibitions regarding beer/liquor on
Sundays.

As a kid? Come here to CT and you can see that every night at 9 PM.
Just the past couple of years you can buy it on Sunday for a few hours.





OTOH, the catholic church seems to routinely decide to rewrite
what's "acceptable" -- in a manner that is suggestive of a marketing
campaign! (gays, second marriages, etc.) I wonder if they've got some
grand master copy of their bible locked away someplace and a big
jar of WhiteOut... :

Pope Francis is dragging them up into the 18th century so I guess there
is hope for modernization.