On 10/16/2015 10:47 PM, philo wrote:

Eventually I gave up on aluminum because no matter what I did, the
connection would burn out again. I might have had better luck though if
I used anti-oxidant paste. Too late now, I'm retired.

If it's what I think, the OP should call an
electrician. And schedule a day for the power
company to shut the power off, so the
electrician can work safely.

Philo, yes, aluminum is a problem. I've heard
the paste is a good idea.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 10/17/2015 12:59 AM, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
Howdy folks,

I read all the excellent replies (thanks to all). Here's what I am going to
do. I will put on my long linesman rubber gloves, place a thick rubber mat
on the floor in front of the box and use a large insulated screwdriver to
see if the screw (it's slotted, not hex-keyed) will turn and by how much.


TKS



While in the panel, please consider tighten the
other power feed wire. And the neutral. And then
go down the row of breakers, and snug down all
the black wires. I've also had neutrals and grounds
come loose, so perhaps those need snug down also.

Looking forward to a follow up report, please.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Sat, 17 Oct 2015 00:59:18 -0400, "Texas Kingsnake"
wrote:

I read all the excellent replies (thanks to all). Here's what I am going to
do. I will put on my long linesman rubber gloves, place a thick rubber mat
on the floor in front of the box and use a large insulated screwdriver to
see if the screw (it's slotted, not hex-keyed) will turn and by how much.


A wise electrician once told me to "never work on an electric with
both hands -- always keep one in your pocket." I still remember his
advice, but I don't futz around in a panel...

On Friday, October 16, 2015 at 9:35:16 PM UTC-5, philo wrote:
On 10/16/2015 06:44 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 10/16/2015 5:53 PM, philo wrote:
On 10/16/2015 05:48 PM, dpb wrote:
On 10/16/2015 5:21 PM, philo wrote:
...



[snip[

BTW: I found the picture of my socket wrench.

It was the day I decided that it would be OK to work on a live circuit
as long as I had my wrench all taped up.

I was 100% sure of what I was doing until it slipped and the insulation
was cut


https://www.dropbox.com/s/0zwcfigdo7...burnt.JPG?dl=0


LOL! Was it a Craftsman? What'd they say about their lifetime guarantee?






I knew better than to try and collect warranty on that one...
yes it was Craftsman
and I used the socket set the entire 38 years I was on the job.

The socket set was the only thing that lasted the whole time...and when
it was time for me to turn in my tools, I kept it as a retirement present.

Obviously I replaced the parts shown in the photo and I took warranty on
the ratchet a few times...but all other sockets went the distance.

I've owned many an arc damaged Klein screwdriver. ^__^

[8~{} Uncle Arc Monster

On 10/16/2015 11:59 PM, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
Howdy folks,

I read all the excellent replies (thanks to all). Here's what I am going to
do. I will put on my long linesman rubber gloves, place a thick rubber mat
on the floor in front of the box and use a large insulated screwdriver to
see if the screw (it's slotted, not hex-keyed) will turn and by how much.

I haven't been able to recreate the arcing since pushing the feed wire
slightly right above the bus clamp. I will, on next trip to the box, look
for discoloration of the wire in the clamp area and burn or sputter marks
near the terminal. I will also try to measure the washing machine's start
up current to see if it's abnormally high (if my clamp meter can register
it - I believe it has a peak lock but am not sure - just got a new HF one to
replace the Wavetek that had a terminal battery leak.)

I appreciate the concern for my life, Philo, and my wife is making sure my
will is in order. I will wear goggles since I know a spasm of some sort
could arc weld my screwdriver to the panel and throw molten metal into my
eyes.

DPB - I'll try to take a close up picture of the wire where it enters the
clamp but no guarantees. The last time I uploaded pictures no one could see
them. I'll at least try to describe what I see now I know what I am looking
for.

I'm upstairs now, but for some reason I thought the feed wire was tinned
copper but it could easily be I was looking at aluminum wire and didn't
realize it. The upgrade to the panel occurred in 1972 according to the
labels, and IIRC that's when aluminum was still thought to be a good idea in
residential wiring. I think you're right in that just pushing on the wire
changed something because I cannot get the arc to occur DESPITE putting two
space heaters running at 15A on the outlets served by the left side of the
panel.

It's really just random chance we were both standing where we were when this
happened - who knows how long it could have continued. I tried to assure my
wife the reason that the circuits are in the metal box was to prevent an
arcing connection from throwing sparks into the room. She's with Philo and
thinks resetting the clocks and VCRs is worth the safety edge of working on
a de-energized circuit. My opinon is "meh, you got to go sometime and
getting eletrocuted is probably better than some ways of dying!!!"

I have a neighbor who is an electrician so I am going to consult with him
tomorrow about what to do. If it's discolored and corroded at the entry to
the clamp, I will consider replacing the entire feed wire from the meter to
the panel since I think that's a relative small piece of what looks to be #6
wire - can't read the markings but am on my way downstairs with a camera
with a macro lens. If all the feed wires are AL, I will consider replacing
all three wires from the panel to the meter with new copper. If it happened
on one wire, it's possible it could happen on the others.

And , if the screw won't turn, I won't be spraying it with
anything flammable while it's live. I feel comfortable trying to tighten
the screw and take photos while it's live, but if it requires closer
inspection, of course I will kill the power to the panel.

Thanks again for all the thoughtful replies. It might be a few days before
you hear back from me if the worst comes to pass - well, if the very worst
comes to pass (I die) you won't hear from me so I will try my best to let
you know if I survive.

The worst shocks I've ever gotten were not from replacing breakers in a live
panel but where I least expected it. I was changing a light bulb in a
flooded basement when it popped in my hand and I was suddenly touching the
naked filament wire. Or when I was working on a space heater that had
stopped heating and thought I had unplugged it from the outlet but I had
actually unplugged my DC variable power supply that was plugged in next to
it. ZAPPPPPPP!

TKS




First off, as mentioned ,the power company will disconnect your power
free, so I'd do that. Since what you are doing will only take a minute,
I'm sure they will stick around and reconnect .


That said I already know you are just going to go ahead and do it...so
good luck to you.

In addition the the shock hazard, it the possibility of shorting
something out if your Allen wrench slips. (Hope you saw my photo)

Finally, if things do look at all burned...even a slight tarnish, the
money you spend to have a qualified electrician fix it will be a
pittance compared to your house burning down.

On Friday, October 16, 2015 at 9:39:53 PM UTC-5, philo wrote:
On 10/16/2015 07:30 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 16 Oct 2015 17:21:46 -0500, philo wrote:

I worked on high power circuitry for 38 years and cleaning a bad
connection is not the answer.


Believe me I've tried. Once a connection has been burned and tarnished
no amount of cleaning can ever again provide a satisfactory connection..
All connectors and wires must be replaced...or if the wire/cable is long
enough...cut back to good , fresh copper.


For low power circuitry, cleaning is probably OK though.

I guess 12VDC would qualify as low power, but some still draws a lot of
amps. I've had to clean corroded wires many times on vehicles, and
reconnect them. Just recently, there was a melted plug under my dash,
powering the blower motor (for heater). I removed the plug and found the
wires overheated, so I cut off a half inch on each end. That was all I
could spare. Then I soldered them and taped. That plug is a common
problem on my vehicle, and there have been some fires because of it. The
plug was under rated for the current draw.There was a recall for it, but
that expired years ago. The vehicle is a 1995 model. According to what a
mechanic told me, the recall had them remove the plug and crimp the
wires together. I think soldering is a far better splice than crimp
connectors.

I worked a lot with connectors up to 350 amps and UL approved either
soldering or crimping.

No one at my company had a problem with either method as long as done
properly.

The important thing you did right was to cut back to good copper.

We usually crimped just because it was faster and no flames were needed
to do so.

I don't think most people understand that an arc welder uses low voltage high current and that a short circuit on a large battery bank can vaporize a large gauge wire and create an arc just like an arc welder. In fact I've seen plans for homemade arc welders which use a golf cart or a few automotive batteries as a power source. ^__^

http://www.instructables.com/id/Golfcart--Welder/

[8~{} Uncle Plasma Monster

On 10/17/2015 10:14 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Friday, October 16, 2015 at 9:35:16 PM UTC-5, philo wrote:



snip



I knew better than to try and collect warranty on that one...
yes it was Craftsman
and I used the socket set the entire 38 years I was on the job.

The socket set was the only thing that lasted the whole time...and when
it was time for me to turn in my tools, I kept it as a retirement present.

Obviously I replaced the parts shown in the photo and I took warranty on
the ratchet a few times...but all other sockets went the distance.

I've owned many an arc damaged Klein screwdriver. ^__^

[8~{} Uncle Arc Monster




Here's another story:


When I first started my job, the LARGE industrial batteries I worked on
had no insulation the the lead intra-cell connectors.


After a number of years of having customers blow up their batteries, we
started manufacturing insulating shrouds to go over the lead bars and we
installed them on 100% of the batteries we worked on. We'd charge a
nominal fee and though no one ever protested, our policy was to give the
customer a refund if they did not like the fee,,,but NOT to remove the
shrouds.


A few months after battery shrouds becoming standard, I dropped my
entire socket set onto a gassing on-charge battery. I was standing on
top of it, and were it not for the insulating shrouds, there was 100%
chance it would have blown up!



Here's where I worked

http://www.enersys.com/IRONCLAD_Prod...?langType=1033


The batteries we sold weighed up to 4000 pounds

On 10/17/2015 10:30 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:


I worked a lot with connectors up to 350 amps and UL approved either
soldering or crimping.

No one at my company had a problem with either method as long as done
properly.

The important thing you did right was to cut back to good copper.

We usually crimped just because it was faster and no flames were needed
to do so.

I don't think most people understand that an arc welder uses low voltage high current and that a short circuit on a large battery bank can vaporize a large gauge wire and create an arc just like an arc welder. In fact I've seen plans for homemade arc welders which use a golf cart or a few automotive batteries as a power source. ^__^

http://www.instructables.com/id/Golfcart--Welder/

[8~{} Uncle Plasma Monster




That burned up socket set I showed a photo of took out a 1000 amp fuse.
I think the battery could easily have supplied ten times that amount.
It was a large rack-mounted stationery battery.

On Friday, October 16, 2015 at 9:47:46 PM UTC-5, philo wrote:
On 10/16/2015 06:42 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 10/16/2015 5:38 PM, philo wrote:
On 10/16/2015 05:28 PM, trader_4 wrote:
[snip]


Once copper is heated it actually goes through a chemical change and
becomes copper oxide. If the burned portion is cleaned, the copper still
has a tarnished look to it.


If you cut a new copper wire and compare it to a cut, tarnished wire you
will see the difference.


That's why I said all must be replaced.


If some hardware was replaced that ended up actually being OK, no harm
done.

I think all see the corollary.

If it's copper, I'll check to you as the authority. If it's AL as is
the bulk of underground feeds over the past 45 years or so, is it the
same deal with arcing.

The only thing I'm going with is DON'T mess with that service drop while
it's live. Period!

If it's AL on the drop, you're definitely going to have to clean it up,
recoat with the anti-oxidant paste and really crank it down. IIRC
correctly those lugs are fitted with an Allen socket. Just way too much
that can go wrong screwing around there even if you didn't have to pull
the wire out to clean and re-coat.

He can, in the end, do whatever he wants. His widow can report back
where he went wrong.








Worked on a lot high-powered transformers and if copper I could usually
fix them by cutting back to clean copper and putting on a new lug.

Eventually I gave up on aluminum because no matter what I did, the
connection would burn out again. I might have had better luck though if
I used anti-oxidant paste. Too late now, I'm retired.

I've used the anti-oxidation paste (Ideal Noalox) on copper connections in areas where there may be condensation, steam or a possibility of the connections getting wet from pressure washing. If you're concerned about any moisture getting into crimp butt splices that would never normally get wet and you don't want to put heat shrink tubing on everything, you can squirt some Noalox into all the crimp connectors before you install then. All of the large al/cu rated crimp lugs and butt connectors I've used already had ant-oxidation paste in them from the factory. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Butt Monster

On Sat, 17 Oct 2015 00:59:18 -0400, "Texas Kingsnake"
wrote:

Howdy folks,

I read all the excellent replies (thanks to all). Here's what I am going to
do. I will put on my long linesman rubber gloves, place a thick rubber mat
on the floor in front of the box and use a large insulated screwdriver to
see if the screw (it's slotted, not hex-keyed) will turn and by how much.

I haven't been able to recreate the arcing since pushing the feed wire
slightly right above the bus clamp. I will, on next trip to the box, look
for discoloration of the wire in the clamp area and burn or sputter marks
near the terminal. I will also try to measure the washing machine's start
up current to see if it's abnormally high (if my clamp meter can register
it - I believe it has a peak lock but am not sure - just got a new HF one to
replace the Wavetek that had a terminal battery leak.)

I appreciate the concern for my life, Philo, and my wife is making sure my
will is in order. I will wear goggles since I know a spasm of some sort
could arc weld my screwdriver to the panel and throw molten metal into my
eyes.

DPB - I'll try to take a close up picture of the wire where it enters the
clamp but no guarantees. The last time I uploaded pictures no one could see
them. I'll at least try to describe what I see now I know what I am looking
for.

I'm upstairs now, but for some reason I thought the feed wire was tinned
copper but it could easily be I was looking at aluminum wire and didn't
realize it. The upgrade to the panel occurred in 1972 according to the
labels, and IIRC that's when aluminum was still thought to be a good idea in
residential wiring. I think you're right in that just pushing on the wire
changed something because I cannot get the arc to occur DESPITE putting two
space heaters running at 15A on the outlets served by the left side of the
panel.

It's really just random chance we were both standing where we were when this
happened - who knows how long it could have continued. I tried to assure my
wife the reason that the circuits are in the metal box was to prevent an
arcing connection from throwing sparks into the room. She's with Philo and
thinks resetting the clocks and VCRs is worth the safety edge of working on
a de-energized circuit. My opinon is "meh, you got to go sometime and
getting eletrocuted is probably better than some ways of dying!!!"

I have a neighbor who is an electrician so I am going to consult with him
tomorrow about what to do. If it's discolored and corroded at the entry to
the clamp, I will consider replacing the entire feed wire from the meter to
the panel since I think that's a relative small piece of what looks to be #6
wire - can't read the markings but am on my way downstairs with a camera
with a macro lens. If all the feed wires are AL, I will consider replacing
all three wires from the panel to the meter with new copper. If it happened
on one wire, it's possible it could happen on the others.

And , if the screw won't turn, I won't be spraying it with
anything flammable while it's live. I feel comfortable trying to tighten
the screw and take photos while it's live, but if it requires closer
inspection, of course I will kill the power to the panel.

It's not just sprying it when it's live that can be an issue.
Penetrating oil is flammable, so if you use it to free up a galled
fastener, you need to remove it completely before re-energizing the
circuit so it doesn't ignite if it sparks again. Use a "safe" brake
cleaner to degrease it. This means "non chlorinated" solvents ONLY.
CRC Braakleen Non Chlorinated brake cleaner is one example - but NEVER
use it on energized equipment, and allow fumes to disburse before
re-energizing or exposing to spark.

Thanks again for all the thoughtful replies. It might be a few days before
you hear back from me if the worst comes to pass - well, if the very worst
comes to pass (I die) you won't hear from me so I will try my best to let
you know if I survive.

The worst shocks I've ever gotten were not from replacing breakers in a live
panel but where I least expected it. I was changing a light bulb in a
flooded basement when it popped in my hand and I was suddenly touching the
naked filament wire. Or when I was working on a space heater that had
stopped heating and thought I had unplugged it from the outlet but I had
actually unplugged my DC variable power supply that was plugged in next to
it. ZAPPPPPPP!

The worst I ever got was from an old television power transformer I
used as a hobby power supply as a young teanager. This was from an old
pre-flyback set and had a 30kv high voltage winding at one end -
opposite the 1.3? 5, 6, and 12 volt filament windings I usually played
with. The basement was only about 5 feet high. I touched that 30kv wre
and straightened up, hitting my head on the floorboards above me
(between the floor joists)- finding the sharp end of a nail holding
the underlay to the subfloor, and driving the head up through the
linoleum on the livingroom floor above me. Now THAT HURT!!!!!!

Almost as bad was forgetting to turn off the "tamper alarm" on my 1963
valliant before opening the hood. 115hz auto radio multivibrator
feeding a bosch ignition coil connected to a strip of window break
detector foil over a mylar insulation strip on the leading edge of the
hood - controlled by a jam switch on the hood.

That sucker would really charge your batteries if you opened the hood
without turning it off first!!!!

TKS

On Sat, 17 Oct 2015 10:04:55 -0400, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 10/17/2015 12:59 AM, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
Howdy folks,

I read all the excellent replies (thanks to all). Here's what I am going to
do. I will put on my long linesman rubber gloves, place a thick rubber mat
on the floor in front of the box and use a large insulated screwdriver to
see if the screw (it's slotted, not hex-keyed) will turn and by how much.


TKS



While in the panel, please consider tighten the
other power feed wire. And the neutral. And then
go down the row of breakers, and snug down all
the black wires. I've also had neutrals and grounds
come loose, so perhaps those need snug down also.

Looking forward to a follow up report, please.

-
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.
Also, what brand is the panel? Check the buss bars for damage where
the breakers connect. If it is an FPE or other cheap-assed panel,
consider replacing it particularly if there is ANY sign of heat or
arcing on the buss.

I just replaced my complete (fused) panel and meter base with a new QO
32 /64 panel with whole house surge protector for $2400 canadian
including taxes and inspection. Could have done it for $400 less using
a homeline or Cuttler Hammer BR panel and no surge protector.

I considered the upgrade to the copper buss QO worth the extra money

On 10/16/2015 11:59 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 17 Oct 2015 00:08:21 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
A properly soldered connection is still better than an improperly
crimped connection. Soldered connections should be re-enforced with
heat shrink tupe beyond the solder-stiffened area of the wire.

But the proper crimped connection is a lot berter than an improperly
soldered connectiion.

You are defeating the purpose when not doing things the correct way.

But the "properly crimped connection" is not made with a $3.00
crimping tool and an insulated butt crimp connector consisting of a
tinned copper tube and a hard plastic sleeve on it. A properly crimped
connector requires a crimper with the correct size die for the
connector, and a "calibrated" pressure, to ensure a "gas tite"
connection - and an insulating sleeve that seals to the insulation,
keeping moisture and other corrosive contamination away from the
joint.

It is easier for a reasonably competent craftsman to make a decent
soldered joint with tools at hand than to do a "proper" crimp without
the specialized tools required.

That said, a "proper" crimped connection IS the preferred method of
joining flexible conductors.


Our house has a circuit breaker box in the bad bedroom where the
previous owners built on an addition to the older house. I was wondering
if a circuit box has an odor to it because sometimes I could swear that
I can smell electricity in the air, but I can't really pinpoint where
it's coming from. It's been like this for the entire time we've lived here.

--
Maggie

On Sat, 17 Oct 2015 12:18:49 -0500, Muggles wrote:

Our house has a circuit breaker box in the bad bedroom where the
previous owners built on an addition to the older house. I was wondering
if a circuit box has an odor to it because sometimes I could swear that
I can smell electricity in the air, but I can't really pinpoint where
it's coming from. It's been like this for the entire time we've lived here.


How can you "smell electricity" in a "bad bedroom"? Heck I can't even
see electricity, but I am really afraid of it. :-\

On 10/17/2015 12:34 PM, Oren wrote:
On Sat, 17 Oct 2015 12:18:49 -0500, Muggles wrote:

Our house has a circuit breaker box in the bad bedroom where the
previous owners built on an addition to the older house. I was wondering
if a circuit box has an odor to it because sometimes I could swear that
I can smell electricity in the air, but I can't really pinpoint where
it's coming from. It's been like this for the entire time we've lived here.


How can you "smell electricity" in a "bad bedroom"? Heck I can't even
see electricity, but I am really afraid of it. :-\


I don't know how I can smell electricity. It's the "back" bedroom.
sheesh. I need to wake up! Sorry for the typo.

--
Maggie

On Sat, 17 Oct 2015 12:43:25 -0500, Muggles wrote:

On 10/17/2015 12:34 PM, Oren wrote:
On Sat, 17 Oct 2015 12:18:49 -0500, Muggles wrote:

Our house has a circuit breaker box in the bad bedroom where the
previous owners built on an addition to the older house. I was wondering
if a circuit box has an odor to it because sometimes I could swear that
I can smell electricity in the air, but I can't really pinpoint where
it's coming from. It's been like this for the entire time we've lived here.


How can you "smell electricity" in a "bad bedroom"? Heck I can't even
see electricity, but I am really afraid of it. :-\


I don't know how I can smell electricity. It's the "back" bedroom.
sheesh. I need to wake up! Sorry for the typo.

I was just poking at ya. You could be smelling scorched wires or
something. Your box needs a closer inspection or maybe an outlet or
switch on the walls. Would be my guess, but I'm not an electrician.

On 10/17/2015 12:28 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:

I've used the anti-oxidation paste (Ideal Noalox)
on copper connections in areas where there may be
condensation, steam or a possibility of the
connections getting wet from pressure washing. If
you're concerned about any moisture getting into
crimp butt splices that would never normally get
wet and you don't want to put heat shrink tubing
on everything, you can squirt some Noalox into all
the crimp connectors before you install then. All
of the large al/cu rated crimp lugs and butt
connectors I've used already had ant-oxidation
paste in them from the factory. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Butt Monster


One time I used noalox on a .250 push on terminal,
it corroded out in a few months, the terminal
up and disappeared. I've changed to dielectric
grease for small connections, now.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Sat, 17 Oct 2015 10:34:10 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sat, 17 Oct 2015 12:18:49 -0500, Muggles wrote:

Our house has a circuit breaker box in the bad bedroom where the
previous owners built on an addition to the older house. I was wondering
if a circuit box has an odor to it because sometimes I could swear that
I can smell electricity in the air, but I can't really pinpoint where
it's coming from. It's been like this for the entire time we've lived here.


How can you "smell electricity" in a "bad bedroom"? Heck I can't even
see electricity, but I am really afraid of it. :-\
Arcing will produce ozone - which youn CAN smell.

On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 11:31:01 AM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote:


I don't think most people understand that an arc welder uses low voltage high current and that a short circuit on a large battery bank can vaporize a large gauge wire and create an arc just like an arc welder. In fact I've seen plans for homemade arc welders which use a golf cart or a few automotive batteries as a power source. ^__^

http://www.instructables.com/id/Golfcart--Welder/

[8~{} Uncle Plasma Monster

I told the story here a few months ago, where on a BMW forum
a guy posted a DIY on how to change an alternator, complete with
pics. One pic showed the 12V cable disconnected from the alternator
suspended from the hood with a piece of string, bare end fully
exposed, just dangling there.
He pointed out how he did it that way to avoid
disconnecting the battery, which is in the rear cargo area.
And on that car, the alternator cable connection is down under,
surrounded by all kinds of metal you could hit with a wrench or
the cable, etc.

Best part was that even after pointing it out, he insisted it
was no big deal, it would just spark, he knows about electricity,
etc. I brought up your arc welding analogy, and other obvious
angles, but it all fell on deaf ears.
It's such a bad DIY post that it really should have been
taken down.

On Sat, 17 Oct 2015 17:25:26 -0400, wrote:

How can you "smell electricity" in a "bad bedroom"? Heck I can't even
see electricity, but I am really afraid of it. :-\

Arcing will produce ozone - which youn CAN smell.

...but not "electricity", right? Wouldn't ozone smell dissipate within
a few hours

I was having fun with Mugs... sounded like the smell was frequent and
often or constant - why I mentioned wires, switches and outlets as a
possible source.... from wires.

On 10/17/2015 12:53 PM, Oren wrote:
On Sat, 17 Oct 2015 12:43:25 -0500, Muggles wrote:

On 10/17/2015 12:34 PM, Oren wrote:
On Sat, 17 Oct 2015 12:18:49 -0500, Muggles wrote:

Our house has a circuit breaker box in the bad bedroom where the
previous owners built on an addition to the older house. I was wondering
if a circuit box has an odor to it because sometimes I could swear that
I can smell electricity in the air, but I can't really pinpoint where
it's coming from. It's been like this for the entire time we've lived here.


How can you "smell electricity" in a "bad bedroom"? Heck I can't even
see electricity, but I am really afraid of it. :-\


I don't know how I can smell electricity. It's the "back" bedroom.
sheesh. I need to wake up! Sorry for the typo.

I was just poking at ya. You could be smelling scorched wires or
something. Your box needs a closer inspection or maybe an outlet or
switch on the walls. Would be my guess, but I'm not an electrician.


I didn't even see my typo, so it was kind of funny when you pointed it
out to me.

The thing about what I'm smelling is it isn't there all the time and I
can't find where it's coming from. It's like a faint scent and then
goes away. My husband hasn't ever smelled it, but I it's hard to
describe it. The only thing I can compare it to is the smell of
electricity.

--
Maggie

On 10/17/2015 4:25 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 17 Oct 2015 10:34:10 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Sat, 17 Oct 2015 12:18:49 -0500, Muggles wrote:

Our house has a circuit breaker box in the bad bedroom where the
previous owners built on an addition to the older house. I was wondering
if a circuit box has an odor to it because sometimes I could swear that
I can smell electricity in the air, but I can't really pinpoint where
it's coming from. It's been like this for the entire time we've lived here.


How can you "smell electricity" in a "bad bedroom"? Heck I can't even
see electricity, but I am really afraid of it. :-\
Arcing will produce ozone - which youn CAN smell.


What does ozone smell like?

--
Maggie

On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 10:56:34 AM UTC-5, philo wrote:
On 10/17/2015 10:30 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:


I worked a lot with connectors up to 350 amps and UL approved either
soldering or crimping.

No one at my company had a problem with either method as long as done
properly.

The important thing you did right was to cut back to good copper.

We usually crimped just because it was faster and no flames were needed
to do so.

I don't think most people understand that an arc welder uses low voltage high current and that a short circuit on a large battery bank can vaporize a large gauge wire and create an arc just like an arc welder. In fact I've seen plans for homemade arc welders which use a golf cart or a few automotive batteries as a power source. ^__^

http://www.instructables.com/id/Golfcart--Welder/

[8~{} Uncle Plasma Monster


That burned up socket set I showed a photo of took out a 1000 amp fuse.
I think the battery could easily have supplied ten times that amount.
It was a large rack-mounted stationery battery.

I hope you weren't hurt. I'm guessing that company policy was to always wear safety goggles, gloves and protective clothing of some kind when you were servicing large battery packs. I just had a thought of how dangerous the WWI and WWII submarines with huge battery banks must have been, especially when hit by weapons fire. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Lead Monster

On 10/17/2015 5:32 PM, Oren wrote:
On Sat, 17 Oct 2015 17:25:26 -0400, wrote:

How can you "smell electricity" in a "bad bedroom"? Heck I can't even
see electricity, but I am really afraid of it. :-\

Arcing will produce ozone - which youn CAN smell.

..but not "electricity", right? Wouldn't ozone smell dissipate within
a few hours

I was having fun with Mugs... sounded like the smell was frequent and
often or constant - why I mentioned wires, switches and outlets as a
possible source.... from wires.


It doesn't happen often or even constantly. More like randomly and not
often at all. It kind of makes me wonder if I'm losing my mind 'cause I
know I smelled something, but can't figure out where it came from or
what caused it.

--
Maggie

On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 4:52:22 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 11:31:01 AM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote:


I don't think most people understand that an arc welder uses low voltage high current and that a short circuit on a large battery bank can vaporize a large gauge wire and create an arc just like an arc welder. In fact I've seen plans for homemade arc welders which use a golf cart or a few automotive batteries as a power source. ^__^

http://www.instructables.com/id/Golfcart--Welder/

[8~{} Uncle Plasma Monster

I told the story here a few months ago, where on a BMW forum
a guy posted a DIY on how to change an alternator, complete with
pics. One pic showed the 12V cable disconnected from the alternator
suspended from the hood with a piece of string, bare end fully
exposed, just dangling there.
He pointed out how he did it that way to avoid
disconnecting the battery, which is in the rear cargo area.
And on that car, the alternator cable connection is down under,
surrounded by all kinds of metal you could hit with a wrench or
the cable, etc.

Best part was that even after pointing it out, he insisted it
was no big deal, it would just spark, he knows about electricity,
etc. I brought up your arc welding analogy, and other obvious
angles, but it all fell on deaf ears.
It's such a bad DIY post that it really should have been
taken down.

Check out this guy using 3 car batteries in series and doing a heck of a job arc welding some steel. ^__^

http://www.popsci.com/article/diy/ho...s-welder-video

[8~{} Uncle Arc Monster

On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 8:40:16 PM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:

Check out this guy using 3 car batteries in series and doing a heck of a job arc welding some steel. ^__^

http://www.popsci.com/article/diy/ho...s-welder-video

[8~{} Uncle Arc Monster

I don't get why you (and the article/video) say "series" when it should be parallel to give you 3X the current at the same voltage?

On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 3:20:52 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 10/17/2015 12:28 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:

I've used the anti-oxidation paste (Ideal Noalox)
on copper connections in areas where there may be
condensation, steam or a possibility of the
connections getting wet from pressure washing. If
you're concerned about any moisture getting into
crimp butt splices that would never normally get
wet and you don't want to put heat shrink tubing
on everything, you can squirt some Noalox into all
the crimp connectors before you install then. All
of the large al/cu rated crimp lugs and butt
connectors I've used already had ant-oxidation
paste in them from the factory. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Butt Monster


One time I used noalox on a .250 push on terminal,
it corroded out in a few months, the terminal
up and disappeared. I've changed to dielectric
grease for small connections, now.
-
.

That's very strange. I've never had that happen but I don't usually put Noalox all over Faston terminals because it's so fraking messy. I put a small amount on the stripped end of the wire before crimping on the connector. I once had a big tube of 3M silicone dielectric grease I obtained back in the early 70's that lasted me for many years of greasing antenna connectors and low voltage terminals in boats and cars. ^__^

[8~{} Uncle Greasy Monster

On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 8:48:48 PM UTC-5, bob_villa wrote:
On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 8:40:16 PM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:

Check out this guy using 3 car batteries in series and doing a heck of a job arc welding some steel. ^__^

http://www.popsci.com/article/diy/ho...s-welder-video

[8~{} Uncle Arc Monster

I don't get why you (and the article/video) say "series" when it should be parallel to give you 3X the current at the same voltage?

He has them in series in order to get 36 volts which will produce a better arc. If he tried to strike an arc with 12 volts, the rod might stick, melt the rod and damage his cabling. ^__^

[8~{} Uncle Melted Monster

On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 8:57:22 PM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 8:48:48 PM UTC-5, bob_villa wrote:
On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 8:40:16 PM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:

Check out this guy using 3 car batteries in series and doing a heck of a job arc welding some steel. ^__^

http://www.popsci.com/article/diy/ho...s-welder-video

[8~{} Uncle Arc Monster

I don't get why you (and the article/video) say "series" when it should be parallel to give you 3X the current at the same voltage?

He has them in series in order to get 36 volts which will produce a better arc. If he tried to strike an arc with 12 volts, the rod might stick, melt the rod and damage his cabling. ^__^

[8~{} Uncle Melted Monster

From the article..."A single car battery lacks the juice to sustain a metal-melting arc between the tip of a welding rod and a piece of steel". Series gives the same juice as one battery.

On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 10:01:34 PM UTC-4, bob_villa wrote:
On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 8:57:22 PM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 8:48:48 PM UTC-5, bob_villa wrote:
On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 8:40:16 PM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:

Check out this guy using 3 car batteries in series and doing a heck of a job arc welding some steel. ^__^

http://www.popsci.com/article/diy/ho...s-welder-video

[8~{} Uncle Arc Monster

I don't get why you (and the article/video) say "series" when it should be parallel to give you 3X the current at the same voltage?

He has them in series in order to get 36 volts which will produce a better arc. If he tried to strike an arc with 12 volts, the rod might stick, melt the rod and damage his cabling. ^__^

[8~{} Uncle Melted Monster

From the article..."A single car battery lacks the juice to sustain a metal-melting arc between the tip of a welding rod and a piece of steel". Series gives the same juice as one battery.

my best friend has connected 3 car batteries in series to weld heavy things.....

his only regret was not trying it earlier when he didnt have a welder

On 10/17/2015 8:48 PM, bob_villa wrote:
On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 8:40:16 PM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:

Check out this guy using 3 car batteries in series and doing a heck of a job arc welding some steel. ^__^

http://www.popsci.com/article/diy/ho...s-welder-video

[8~{} Uncle Arc Monster

I don't get why you (and the article/video) say "series" when it should be parallel to give you 3X the current at the same voltage?


Maybe they know something that you don't...

It's quite clear from the article that he means series when he says it.
"...wire three batteries in series to get 36 volts..." Most batteries
are good for at least a couple hundred amps, no real need to triple the
current.

On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 9:01:34 PM UTC-5, bob_villa wrote:
On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 8:57:22 PM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 8:48:48 PM UTC-5, bob_villa wrote:
On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 8:40:16 PM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:

Check out this guy using 3 car batteries in series and doing a heck of a job arc welding some steel. ^__^

http://www.popsci.com/article/diy/ho...s-welder-video

[8~{} Uncle Arc Monster

I don't get why you (and the article/video) say "series" when it should be parallel to give you 3X the current at the same voltage?

He has them in series in order to get 36 volts which will produce a better arc. If he tried to strike an arc with 12 volts, the rod might stick, melt the rod and damage his cabling. ^__^

[8~{} Uncle Melted Monster

From the article..."A single car battery lacks the juice to sustain a metal-melting arc between the tip of a welding rod and a piece of steel". Series gives the same juice as one battery.

The 3 batteries in series increases the wattage because of the higher voltage. It's basic electricity. Volts X amps = watts. 12 volts at 100 amps = 1,200 watts. 36 volts at 100 amps = 3,600 watts. If you look at the controls on an arc welding machine, you will see a control to adjust the wattage. As my cloud hugger friends say,"The science is settled." ^__^

[8~{} Uncle Hug Monster

On Fri, 16 Oct 2015 17:29:57 -0400, "Texas Kingsnake"
wrote:


I am thinking the clamp has loosened over time. I am going to get a
well-insulated screwdriver, put on very heavy rubber gloves and am going to
try to tighten the clamp which may have not been tightened in 40 years.

I'm not telling you whether to do this or not, but if you decide to do
it, well-insulated screwdriver means wrapping electric tape or maybe
silicon tape over the whole shaft and blade, overlapping so there's
more than one layer, so when the screwdriver slips, only the very tip
will likely connect electrically.

On 10/17/2015 9:52 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 3:20:52 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:


One time I used noalox on a .250 push on terminal,
it corroded out in a few months, the terminal
up and disappeared. I've changed to dielectric
grease for small connections, now.
-
.

That's very strange. I've never had that happen
but I don't usually put Noalox all over Faston
terminals because it's so fraking messy. I put a
small amount on the stripped end of the wire before
crimping on the connector. I once had a big tube
of 3M silicone dielectric grease I obtained back
in the early 70's that lasted me for many years of
greasing antenna connectors and low voltage
terminals in boats and cars. ^__^

[8~{} Uncle Greasy Monster


In this case, it was a thermostat on a refrigerated
box. I put Noalox on the female connectors, and
pushed them onto the spade terminals on the
thermostat. A couple months later, the male
terminals had disappeared. I've only had that
happen once, and I stopped using Noalox.

Where I am, Advance Auto Parts has the best price
on dielectric grease, three or four ounce tube for
six or seven bucks.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 12:44:36 AM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 9:01:34 PM UTC-5, bob_villa wrote:
On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 8:57:22 PM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 8:48:48 PM UTC-5, bob_villa wrote:
On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 8:40:16 PM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:

Check out this guy using 3 car batteries in series and doing a heck of a job arc welding some steel. ^__^

http://www.popsci.com/article/diy/ho...s-welder-video

[8~{} Uncle Arc Monster

I don't get why you (and the article/video) say "series" when it should be parallel to give you 3X the current at the same voltage?

He has them in series in order to get 36 volts which will produce a better arc. If he tried to strike an arc with 12 volts, the rod might stick, melt the rod and damage his cabling. ^__^

[8~{} Uncle Melted Monster

From the article..."A single car battery lacks the juice to sustain a metal-melting arc between the tip of a welding rod and a piece of steel". Series gives the same juice as one battery.

The 3 batteries in series increases the wattage because of the higher voltage. It's basic electricity. Volts X amps = watts. 12 volts at 100 amps = 1,200 watts. 36 volts at 100 amps = 3,600 watts. If you look at the controls on an arc welding machine, you will see a control to adjust the wattage. As my cloud hugger friends say,"The science is settled." ^__^

[8~{} Uncle Hug Monster

I agree. I've never seen "juice" defined as a technical term to only
mean current. I've always taken it to loosely mean power.

"Micky" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 16 Oct 2015 17:29:57 -0400, "Texas Kingsnake"
wrote:


I am thinking the clamp has loosened over time. I am going to get a
well-insulated screwdriver, put on very heavy rubber gloves and am going
to
try to tighten the clamp which may have not been tightened in 40 years.

I'm not telling you whether to do this or not, but if you decide to do
it, well-insulated screwdriver means wrapping electric tape or maybe
silicon tape over the whole shaft and blade, overlapping so there's
more than one layer, so when the screwdriver slips, only the very tip
will likely connect electrically.

Also helps to prevent the reflexive action of guiding the tip of the
screwdriver to the target screw with your (foolishly) ungloved left hand.

DAMHIKT

Short status report and then back to longer replies to everyone when this is
over. Gotta prep the area for the wire-ectomy and move some loads to other
circuits not on the sparking side.

Left hot wire is heat damaged and that damage may extend into the 100A
breaker (dual? tie-handled? - not sure of the right terms) but it's the
breaker that takes the street feed on both sides. The frikkin' wire seems
to be aluminum.

The left feed's bare metal is dark and discolored and could be either. The
neutral wire is un-insulated and very loosely braided and silver colored,
which leads me to believe I've got an aluminum feed from the meter. Crap.

The right hot* from the pole is thick, rubbery plastic obviously cut back
with a pen knife or someone's teeth and there I can see silvery wire that
appears to be covered with some amber colored gel (the reflection made it
look copper-y until I stood on the ladder and got a closer look). Have
switched off most of the breakers to that side of the panel.

Electrician should drop by later today - family friend so I can't push. He
said with the cover back on, it should NOT be a fire hazard because the
arking would be contained and the worst that *should* happen is that we lose
power on the outlets and devices connected to that side of the panel. I
asked again about the fire hazard because of the number of people that
talked about it. He said what I do depends on my level of paranoia.

I think I can handle this sort of repair - there's enough of a loop in the
wire in question to cut back at least an inch and maybe more. Not sure I
want to do that. Would rather have copper feed wires but probably could
live with a cut back/repair if it lasts 10 years. This may trigger the need
to go to a new panel and a rewire of the whole house. It's got old,
cloth-covered wire that's really aged.

More to follow and hopefully photos as well . . .

TKS

*Is there a better way to describe the two different hots from the pole?

On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 11:44:36 PM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 9:01:34 PM UTC-5, bob_villa wrote:
On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 8:57:22 PM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 8:48:48 PM UTC-5, bob_villa wrote:
On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 8:40:16 PM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:

Check out this guy using 3 car batteries in series and doing a heck of a job arc welding some steel. ^__^

http://www.popsci.com/article/diy/ho...s-welder-video

[8~{} Uncle Arc Monster

I don't get why you (and the article/video) say "series" when it should be parallel to give you 3X the current at the same voltage?

He has them in series in order to get 36 volts which will produce a better arc. If he tried to strike an arc with 12 volts, the rod might stick, melt the rod and damage his cabling. ^__^

[8~{} Uncle Melted Monster

From the article..."A single car battery lacks the juice to sustain a metal-melting arc between the tip of a welding rod and a piece of steel". Series gives the same juice as one battery.

The 3 batteries in series increases the wattage because of the higher voltage. It's basic electricity. Volts X amps = watts. 12 volts at 100 amps = 1,200 watts. 36 volts at 100 amps = 3,600 watts. If you look at the controls on an arc welding machine, you will see a control to adjust the wattage. As my cloud hugger friends say,"The science is settled." ^__^

[8~{} Uncle Hug Monster

Woops! I should have written control to adjust the current or voltage since some arc welders are either constant current or constant voltage but voltage determines arc length. The control may just control the voltage for manual welding but the adjustment still controls wattage. ^__^

[8~{} Uncle Watt Monster

On 10/17/2015 08:30 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 10:56:34 AM UTC-5, philo wrote:


That burned up socket set I showed a photo of took out a 1000 amp fuse.
I think the battery could easily have supplied ten times that amount.
It was a large rack-mounted stationery battery.

I hope you weren't hurt. I'm guessing that company policy was to always wear safety goggles, gloves and protective clothing of some kind when you were servicing large battery packs. I just had a thought of how dangerous the WWI and WWII submarines with huge battery banks must have been, especially when hit by weapons fire. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Lead Monster




Yep, I was wearing safety glasses and insulated gloves so was not hurt.

Unfortunately the short caused one of the battery cells to explode and I
was in a relatively small room. My ears rang for 24 hours after that.


Even though it was my fault and I should not have worked on it unless
the customer agreed to take the unit off-line...my boss actually took
the blame because he was supposed to have gotten me certified insulated
tools.

Though it may very well have been an OSHA violation it was common
practice to work on live equipment in situations where the customer
really could not take the equipment off-line.


After my mishap though I never again did anything like that and even
once agreed to come into a place at midnight, news years eve to do the
work. They said at that time they could take the system down for an hour.

On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 6:45:50 AM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 10/17/2015 9:52 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 3:20:52 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:


One time I used noalox on a .250 push on terminal,
it corroded out in a few months, the terminal
up and disappeared. I've changed to dielectric
grease for small connections, now.
-
.
That's very strange. I've never had that happen
but I don't usually put Noalox all over Faston
terminals because it's so fraking messy. I put a
small amount on the stripped end of the wire before
crimping on the connector. I once had a big tube
of 3M silicone dielectric grease I obtained back
in the early 70's that lasted me for many years of
greasing antenna connectors and low voltage
terminals in boats and cars. ^__^

[8~{} Uncle Greasy Monster


In this case, it was a thermostat on a refrigerated
box. I put Noalox on the female connectors, and
pushed them onto the spade terminals on the
thermostat. A couple months later, the male
terminals had disappeared. I've only had that
happen once, and I stopped using Noalox.

Where I am, Advance Auto Parts has the best price
on dielectric grease, three or four ounce tube for
six or seven bucks.
-
.
I think it was Advance Auto Parts where I bought a replacement halogen bulb for the plastic headlights on my Jeep. I was having a hard time moving around so I asked a nice young feller who worked at the store if he could replace the bulb for me. After about 10 minutes of unsuccessful attempts at getting the new bulb in, I suggested that he get one of the finger sized flat foil packs of silicone spark plug boot grease and use a bit of it to lube the O ring on the lamp assembly. He put a bit on his finger, rubbed it around the O ring and the replacement lamp slipped right into the headlight. I offered to purchase the silicone grease but he declined and said he'd keep it for the next time he had to replace a bulb. The young man learned something useful that day from our encounter. ^__^

[8~{} Uncle Silicone Monster

On 10/18/2015 08:13 AM, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
"Micky" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 16 Oct 2015 17:29:57 -0400, "Texas Kingsnake"
wrote:


I am thinking the clamp has loosened over time. I am going to get a
well-insulated screwdriver, put on very heavy rubber gloves and am going
to
try to tighten the clamp which may have not been tightened in 40 years.

I'm not telling you whether to do this or not, but if you decide to do
it, well-insulated screwdriver means wrapping electric tape or maybe
silicon tape over the whole shaft and blade, overlapping so there's
more than one layer, so when the screwdriver slips, only the very tip
will likely connect electrically.

Also helps to prevent the reflexive action of guiding the tip of the
screwdriver to the target screw with your (foolishly) ungloved left hand.

DAMHIKT

Short status report and then back to longer replies to everyone when this is
over. Gotta prep the area for the wire-ectomy and move some loads to other
circuits not on the sparking side.

Left hot wire is heat damaged and that damage may extend into the 100A
breaker (dual? tie-handled? - not sure of the right terms) but it's the
breaker that takes the street feed on both sides. The frikkin' wire seems
to be aluminum.



snip


Have your electrician friend remove all aluminum wire and replace with
copper...also have him replaced the burned breaker.

Hopefully the connections in the box itself are OK

On Sunday, October 18, 2015 at 9:13:33 AM UTC-4, Texas Kingsnake wrote:
"Micky" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 16 Oct 2015 17:29:57 -0400, "Texas Kingsnake"
wrote:


I am thinking the clamp has loosened over time. I am going to get a
well-insulated screwdriver, put on very heavy rubber gloves and am going
to
try to tighten the clamp which may have not been tightened in 40 years.

I'm not telling you whether to do this or not, but if you decide to do
it, well-insulated screwdriver means wrapping electric tape or maybe
silicon tape over the whole shaft and blade, overlapping so there's
more than one layer, so when the screwdriver slips, only the very tip
will likely connect electrically.

Also helps to prevent the reflexive action of guiding the tip of the
screwdriver to the target screw with your (foolishly) ungloved left hand.

DAMHIKT

Short status report and then back to longer replies to everyone when this is
over. Gotta prep the area for the wire-ectomy and move some loads to other
circuits not on the sparking side.

Left hot wire is heat damaged and that damage may extend into the 100A
breaker (dual? tie-handled? - not sure of the right terms) but it's the
breaker that takes the street feed on both sides. The frikkin' wire seems
to be aluminum.

The left feed's bare metal is dark and discolored and could be either. The
neutral wire is un-insulated and very loosely braided and silver colored,
which leads me to believe I've got an aluminum feed from the meter. Crap.

All the new construction I've seen here has used aluminum for service
entrance for decades. It meets code, it's safe and it costa a lot less
than copper.