We have several ~55G plastic (almost nylon-ish?) barrels in which
we collect rainwater. They were originally used to hold detergent
or bleach or some other agent used to wash clothing, linens, etc.
(rescued from a local hospital's "laundry" as they are routinely
discarded, intact).

Most recent rainfall filled them all, again (I'd assumed we were
*done* for the year -- though I've assumed that for each of
the last three storms! : )

But, one barrel obviously has a leak. Over time, it's now down
to just a few inches in the bottom of the barrel. So, we know
the leak is at or below the current water level. I don't imagine
any *other* leaks are present as I'd been "feeling" the exterior
sides for signs of moisture and never found any.

I *suspect* the leak is inthe actual bottom end of the barrel;
the reason it has slowed/stopped is possibly because the leak is
fine enough that hydrostatic pressure at this low level is just
not enough to push much water out through the crack (recall any
sediments in the water will tend to want to *fill* the crack
thus further impeding flow).

As the suspected location is on the bottom, the only approach I can
think of to locate that would be to elevate the barrel on an
"open frame", keep it level (so water comes out from the crack and
doesn't cling to the underside of the barrel to find another
path to ground) and fill it with water -- perhaps even putting
some color in the water (e.g., Miracle Grow would give it a bright
blue color and not be inconsistent with the intended use of that
water -- if I never managed to clean the MG out, completely).

[The barrel has an open mouth so I can't just "plug up the inlet"
and pressure test it]

Any other suggestions to locate the leak?

Is caulking compound (on the interior) likely to be a permanent solution?
Or, an epoxy? Or, just toss the barrel (we'd have to wait for a biannual
special pickup to discard something of this size -- unless I dragged
out a sawzall and diced it up!) and go pick up another from the laundry??
(which is also tedious as they are large and have remnants of nasty
liquids in them before you get them home and clean them)

Don Y wrote:
We have several ~55G plastic (almost nylon-ish?) barrels in which
we collect rainwater. They were originally used to hold detergent
or bleach or some other agent used to wash clothing, linens, etc.
(rescued from a local hospital's "laundry" as they are routinely
discarded, intact).

Most recent rainfall filled them all, again (I'd assumed we were
*done* for the year -- though I've assumed that for each of
the last three storms! : )

But, one barrel obviously has a leak. Over time, it's now down
to just a few inches in the bottom of the barrel. So, we know
the leak is at or below the current water level. I don't imagine
any *other* leaks are present as I'd been "feeling" the exterior
sides for signs of moisture and never found any.

I *suspect* the leak is inthe actual bottom end of the barrel;
the reason it has slowed/stopped is possibly because the leak is
fine enough that hydrostatic pressure at this low level is just
not enough to push much water out through the crack (recall any
sediments in the water will tend to want to *fill* the crack
thus further impeding flow).

As the suspected location is on the bottom, the only approach I can
think of to locate that would be to elevate the barrel on an
"open frame", keep it level (so water comes out from the crack and
doesn't cling to the underside of the barrel to find another
path to ground) and fill it with water -- perhaps even putting
some color in the water (e.g., Miracle Grow would give it a bright
blue color and not be inconsistent with the intended use of that
water -- if I never managed to clean the MG out, completely).

[The barrel has an open mouth so I can't just "plug up the inlet"
and pressure test it]

Any other suggestions to locate the leak?

Is caulking compound (on the interior) likely to be a permanent solution?
Or, an epoxy? Or, just toss the barrel (we'd have to wait for a biannual
special pickup to discard something of this size -- unless I dragged
out a sawzall and diced it up!) and go pick up another from the laundry??
(which is also tedious as they are large and have remnants of nasty
liquids in them before you get them home and clean them)

We have quite a few collecting rain water for use in the garden and
flower pots. Empty it turn it up side down to find where/how it leaks.
There is compatible welding glue(epoxy) you can apply after sanding the
area lightly for better bonding. They are not that heavy.

Don Y wrote:
We have several ~55G plastic (almost nylon-ish?) barrels in which
we collect rainwater. They were originally used to hold detergent
or bleach or some other agent used to wash clothing, linens, etc.
(rescued from a local hospital's "laundry" as they are routinely
discarded, intact).

Most recent rainfall filled them all, again (I'd assumed we were
*done* for the year -- though I've assumed that for each of
the last three storms! : )

But, one barrel obviously has a leak. Over time, it's now down
to just a few inches in the bottom of the barrel. So, we know
the leak is at or below the current water level. I don't imagine
any *other* leaks are present as I'd been "feeling" the exterior
sides for signs of moisture and never found any.

I *suspect* the leak is inthe actual bottom end of the barrel;
the reason it has slowed/stopped is possibly because the leak is
fine enough that hydrostatic pressure at this low level is just
not enough to push much water out through the crack (recall any
sediments in the water will tend to want to *fill* the crack
thus further impeding flow).

As the suspected location is on the bottom, the only approach I can
think of to locate that would be to elevate the barrel on an
"open frame", keep it level (so water comes out from the crack and
doesn't cling to the underside of the barrel to find another
path to ground) and fill it with water -- perhaps even putting
some color in the water (e.g., Miracle Grow would give it a bright
blue color and not be inconsistent with the intended use of that
water -- if I never managed to clean the MG out, completely).

[The barrel has an open mouth so I can't just "plug up the inlet"
and pressure test it]

Any other suggestions to locate the leak?

Is caulking compound (on the interior) likely to be a permanent
solution? Or, an epoxy? Or, just toss the barrel (we'd have to wait
for a biannual special pickup to discard something of this size --
unless I dragged out a sawzall and diced it up!) and go pick up another from
the
laundry?? (which is also tedious as they are large and have remnants
of nasty liquids in them before you get them home and clean them)

I bought some Locktite Vinyl glue recently that might work to glue the leak. I'd
try to find the leak, then spread it a bit and squeeze the glue in, then maybe
apply a fillet of glue on the outside and let it dry overnight.

On 9/25/2015 5:36 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:

Is caulking compound (on the interior) likely to be a permanent solution?
Or, an epoxy? Or, just toss the barrel (we'd have to wait for a biannual
special pickup to discard something of this size -- unless I dragged
out a sawzall and diced it up!) and go pick up another from the laundry??
(which is also tedious as they are large and have remnants of nasty
liquids in them before you get them home and clean them)

We have quite a few collecting rain water for use in the garden and flower
pots. Empty it turn it up side down to find where/how it leaks.

How do I locate a leak (other than visually) in that orientation?
I was assuming to fill it and watch for drips -- coloring the water
to make the leaks more readily located.

There is compatible welding glue(epoxy) you can apply after sanding the area
lightly for better bonding.

But, on the *outside*? I'd assume the inside would be a better spot:
water in the barrel will push *on* the patch (instead of pushing it
out of the way). Likewise, the wear and tear on the outside (as the
barrels get moved around at the start/end of the rainy season) would
be greater than on the inside.

It would be a bit claustrophobic reaching that far into the barrel
to apply the "patch". But, it's wide enough for my shoulders and
upper torso (I'd obviously lay the barrel on its side to make it
easier to access)

They are not that heavy.

They are primarily bulky, not heavy. I can tumble it end-over-end to
get it upside down. OTOH, I wonder if this sort of thing is what
has led to the leak (I have to physically dump them to ensure the
last bits of water drains to prevent mosquito breeding -- so I
leave the barrels upside down when I dump them)

On 9/25/2015 10:25 PM, Bob F wrote:
I bought some Locktite Vinyl glue recently that might work to glue the leak. I'd
try to find the leak, then spread it a bit and squeeze the glue in, then maybe
apply a fillet of glue on the outside and let it dry overnight.

I suspect this is a hairline crack. It takes *hours* for the barrel to
empty. And, as the water level falls, the rate of draining seems to
be reduced (hydrostatic pressure).

I suspect I will have to scrub the inside and outside (sediment that
accumulates in the barrel) and then watch, carefully, for any water
leaving the bottom surface.

Don Y wrote:
On 9/25/2015 10:25 PM, Bob F wrote:
I bought some Locktite Vinyl glue recently that might work to glue
the leak. I'd try to find the leak, then spread it a bit and squeeze
the glue in, then maybe apply a fillet of glue on the outside and
let it dry overnight.

I suspect this is a hairline crack. It takes *hours* for the barrel
to empty. And, as the water level falls, the rate of draining seems
to be reduced (hydrostatic pressure).

I suspect I will have to scrub the inside and outside (sediment that
accumulates in the barrel) and then watch, carefully, for any water
leaving the bottom surface.

First thing is to just look for the crack. It may be completely obvious to to
water stains or moss/algae growth.

I could add, I had some luck at one time repairing a plastic kayak hole with a
hot glue gun, by first heating up the plastic with a heat gun, then applying the
glue. It bonded much better to the heated plastic.

Since you say you can reach inside, you could use the vinyl cement with a patch
of heavy rubber or vinyl coated fabric.

I would certainly use care when moving it after repairing, as no repair will be
a strong as new.

Don Y wrote:
....
How do I locate a leak (other than visually) in that orientation?
I was assuming to fill it and watch for drips -- coloring the water
to make the leaks more readily located.

blotter paper, tissue paper, just press it along the
area in question until it shows moisture, but it may
be the case that you have more than one leak so check
the whole seam.

there is marine grade epoxy you can get that is a
putty, but perhaps it would crack if the barrel is
flexible... hmm, might want to use a marine grade
silicone caulk instead, yes, applied to clean surface
inside over the area of the discovered leak.


songbird

On 9/26/2015 8:05 AM, Bob F wrote:
Don Y wrote:
On 9/25/2015 10:25 PM, Bob F wrote:
I bought some Locktite Vinyl glue recently that might work to glue
the leak. I'd try to find the leak, then spread it a bit and squeeze
the glue in, then maybe apply a fillet of glue on the outside and
let it dry overnight.

I suspect this is a hairline crack. It takes *hours* for the barrel
to empty. And, as the water level falls, the rate of draining seems
to be reduced (hydrostatic pressure).

I suspect I will have to scrub the inside and outside (sediment that
accumulates in the barrel) and then watch, carefully, for any water
leaving the bottom surface.

First thing is to just look for the crack. It may be completely obvious to to
water stains or moss/algae growth.

Already tried that. No sign of anything on the outer surfaces (sides);
no moisture, etc.

Underside of bottom, of course, is completely wet (that's where the water
would accumulate regardless of the location of the crack). No signs
of a crack (like you would expect to see if you'd struck it in an
arbitrary spot with a HAMMER).

Barrel appears to be two "half barrels" (left/right) fused together.
Seem is not visible along sides but is so along the bottom. This
is where I am guessing the leak must be -- some portion of that
seem having failed over time.

But, the only way to locate it would be to dry it, clean it, refill
it (partially) and watch (carefully) for signs of water seepage around
that seam.

Barrels are white HDPE so "wetness" isn't really very easy to spot.
I figure putting a fair bit of Miracle Grow in the small amount of
water would give it enough color to be more noticeable -- without
having to later worry about getting vestiges of the MG out of the
barrel (who cares if a plant gets a tad more fertilizer from this
rainwater!)

I could add, I had some luck at one time repairing a plastic kayak hole with a
hot glue gun, by first heating up the plastic with a heat gun, then applying the
glue. It bonded much better to the heated plastic.

Since you say you can reach inside, you could use the vinyl cement with a patch
of heavy rubber or vinyl coated fabric.

I would certainly use care when moving it after repairing, as no repair will be
a strong as new.

That's a concern. The barrels aren't stationary --- we move them to drain them
(can never get the last few inches of water out of them without tipping them
over -- not keen on being a mosquito birthing center!). And, before/after
Monsoon, they are stored elsewhere on the property (eyesore).

I.e., if they are going to be failing, over time, better to just plan on
replacing them instead of trying to fix them (we've been looking into
a 2000G cistern... something that wouldn't need to be moved, emptied, etc.)

Don Y wrote in
:

We have several ~55G plastic (almost nylon-ish?) barrels in which
we collect rainwater. They were originally used to hold detergent
or bleach or some other agent used to wash clothing, linens, etc.
(rescued from a local hospital's "laundry" as they are routinely
discarded, intact).

Most recent rainfall filled them all, again (I'd assumed we were
*done* for the year -- though I've assumed that for each of
the last three storms! : )

But, one barrel obviously has a leak. Over time, it's now down
to just a few inches in the bottom of the barrel. So, we know
the leak is at or below the current water level. I don't imagine
any *other* leaks are present as I'd been "feeling" the exterior
sides for signs of moisture and never found any.

I *suspect* the leak is inthe actual bottom end of the barrel;
the reason it has slowed/stopped is possibly because the leak is
fine enough that hydrostatic pressure at this low level is just
not enough to push much water out through the crack (recall any
sediments in the water will tend to want to *fill* the crack
thus further impeding flow).

As the suspected location is on the bottom, the only approach I can
think of to locate that would be to elevate the barrel on an
"open frame", keep it level (so water comes out from the crack and
doesn't cling to the underside of the barrel to find another
path to ground) and fill it with water -- perhaps even putting
some color in the water (e.g., Miracle Grow would give it a bright
blue color and not be inconsistent with the intended use of that
water -- if I never managed to clean the MG out, completely).

[The barrel has an open mouth so I can't just "plug up the inlet"
and pressure test it]

Any other suggestions to locate the leak?

Is caulking compound (on the interior) likely to be a permanent
solution? Or, an epoxy? Or, just toss the barrel (we'd have to wait
for a biannual special pickup to discard something of this size --
unless I dragged out a sawzall and diced it up!) and go pick up
another from the laundry?? (which is also tedious as they are large
and have remnants of nasty liquids in them before you get them home
and clean them)


I have two trash barrels that I use to hold water so I can flush the
toilet during a power outage when my well pump isn't working.

One has had a leak for the past few years. I just emptied it and put a
39 gallon lawn/leaf bag in it, folded it over the outside of the barrel
and secured it with a couple pieces of duct tape. Bag needs replacing
every few years as plastic deteriorates.


--
You know it's time to clean the refrigerator
when something closes the door from the inside.

On 9/26/2015 8:08 AM, songbird wrote:
Don Y wrote:
....
How do I locate a leak (other than visually) in that orientation?
I was assuming to fill it and watch for drips -- coloring the water
to make the leaks more readily located.

blotter paper, tissue paper, just press it along the
area in question until it shows moisture, but it may
be the case that you have more than one leak so check
the whole seam.

This is the underside of a barrel. It obviously won't
leak if upside down. So, I need to elevate the barrel
in such a way that I can *see* the underside (or, "blot it")

Barrels are ~2' dia x 3' tall. So, I'd have to support
it along the circumference -- or, the "sides" parallel
to the seam (assuming the seam is where the leak lies).
And, still be able to get under it to see what's going on.

there is marine grade epoxy you can get that is a
putty, but perhaps it would crack if the barrel is
flexible... hmm, might want to use a marine grade
silicone caulk instead, yes, applied to clean surface
inside over the area of the discovered leak.

I'll scrub the barrel this afternoon (get rid of the
dirt/sediment stains so I have a uniform surface to
examine). Then, see what I can find to reliably support it
"as high as possible" (not keen on having to put my cheek
on the ground in the *hope* of seeing what's under it!)

On 9/26/2015 10:50 AM, KenK wrote:
I have two trash barrels that I use to hold water so I can flush the
toilet during a power outage when my well pump isn't working.

Yes, but you keep those full all the time (and covered, presumably)?
When in use ("deployed"), these wait for rain, fill up and are then
emptied in the ~3 days following the rainfall (to avoid standing water).
This repeats as often as we have rain -- regardless of whether the barrels
fill completely or only partially.

It's not possible to empty them completely with siphon or submersible
pump. So, they get tipped over to dump the last bits of rainwater out
(so they *will* be bone dry before the skeeters find them!)

At the end of Monsoon, they get stored in a side yard, upside down
(to ensure some "freak" precipitation doesn't result in standing water
in any of them -- that I'd not notice as I don't make a habit out of
"inspecting" that side yard)

One has had a leak for the past few years. I just emptied it and put a
39 gallon lawn/leaf bag in it, folded it over the outside of the barrel
and secured it with a couple pieces of duct tape. Bag needs replacing
every few years as plastic deteriorates.

I don't think that would work. Pump would suck the bag into the impeller
(how do *you* empty it?). Tipping the barrel over (to empty it completely)
would cause the bag to flop out (I guess some double-sided tape near
the bottom of the barrel could minimize this problem).

I think I could slather some adhesive on the inside of the bottom
and install a patch, there. Given the length of time that the
barrel takes to empty, I can't imagine I'd need a very *robust*
patch -- just something that presents a slightly greater
impediment to the water exiting.

On 26 Sep 2015 17:50:07 GMT, KenK wrote:

I have two trash barrels that I use to hold water so I can flush the
toilet during a power outage when my well pump isn't working.

One has had a leak for the past few years. I just emptied it and put a
39 gallon lawn/leaf bag in it, folded it over the outside of the barrel
and secured it with a couple pieces of duct tape. Bag needs replacing
every few years as plastic deteriorates.

I love duct tape.

On 9/26/2015 12:42 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/25/2015 10:25 PM, Bob F wrote:
I bought some Locktite Vinyl glue recently that might work to glue the
leak. I'd
try to find the leak, then spread it a bit and squeeze the glue in,
then maybe
apply a fillet of glue on the outside and let it dry overnight.

I suspect this is a hairline crack. It takes *hours* for the barrel to
empty. And, as the water level falls, the rate of draining seems to
be reduced (hydrostatic pressure).

I suspect I will have to scrub the inside and outside (sediment that
accumulates in the barrel) and then watch, carefully, for any water
leaving the bottom surface.


If you can't find the leak, maybe you could line the barrel with a
plastic garbage bag that's large enough to fit the barrel? A large pc of
pond line would work, too.

--
Maggie

Don Y wrote in
:

I don't think that would work. Pump would suck the bag into the
impeller (how do *you* empty it?).

In use to flush I just dip out water with a pail.

Tipping the barrel over (to empty
it completely) would cause the bag to flop out

Yes. Not that difficult to put back in. I rarely empty it. Dip out alga
as needed with a pail.

(I guess some
double-sided tape near the bottom of the barrel could minimize this
problem).





--
You know it's time to clean the refrigerator
when something closes the door from the inside.

On 9/28/2015 10:46 AM, KenK wrote:
Don Y wrote in
:

I don't think that would work. Pump would suck the bag into the
impeller (how do *you* empty it?).

In use to flush I just dip out water with a pail.

Understood. We empty all of the buckets shortly after each rainfall
to prevent mosquito larvae from developing. Barrels are always
"uncovered" (I assume you keep a lid on your while in "storage mode"?)

Have you considered backup power source for well pump -- even if
something you "manually" engage?

Tipping the barrel over (to empty
it completely) would cause the bag to flop out

Yes. Not that difficult to put back in. I rarely empty it. Dip out alga
as needed with a pail.

But, you keep *water* in yours (covered, presumably). When empty,
we want ours to be bone dry within a few hours (or a day, max).
I'm not sure how that would work with a "still wet" liner -- wouldn't
the plastic tend to cling to itself and not "remain open" to air out?

So far, no (dry inspection) evidence of leak source. I'll have to put
the barrel "up on blocks" and see what it does with water in it.

(I guess some
double-sided tape near the bottom of the barrel could minimize this
problem).

Don Y wrote in news:muc4de$4r0$1@dont-
email.me:

Have you considered backup power source for well pump -- even if
something you "manually" engage?



I can only think of a generator. But that's awfully expensive for a very
rare event. In the past 30 years, once for about three days, once a day or
so, and a few dozen for a few hours. For comfort inside I use a 12V deep
discharge battery, a fan and a light.

--
You know it's time to clean the refrigerator
when something closes the door from the inside.

On 9/29/2015 9:43 AM, KenK wrote:
Don Y wrote in news:muc4de$4r0$1@dont-
email.me:

Have you considered backup power source for well pump -- even if
something you "manually" engage?

I can only think of a generator. But that's awfully expensive for a very
rare event. In the past 30 years, once for about three days, once a day or
so, and a few dozen for a few hours. For comfort inside I use a 12V deep
discharge battery, a fan and a light.

I don't know how big (electrical load) the pump is. But, was
thinking you could use something like an inverter (even one
repurposed from a UPS?). If the load was small enough
(hundreds of VA), you could find a little UPS/inverter that was
powered from a 12V source (like those your deep discharge battery
is powering).

Then, in a prolonged event, you could use the battery *in*
your vehicle to power the inverter/UPS -- and, periodically
run the vehicle to recharge the battery (this is predicated
on your power needs being small/infrequent -- turn pump on
for a minute or so, then turn it off. Repeat. After a while,
run the vehicle for a short time to top off its battery
before continuing.

On Friday, September 25, 2015 at 2:24:20 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
We have several ~55G plastic (almost nylon-ish?) barrels in which
we collect rainwater. They were originally used to hold detergent
or bleach or some other agent used to wash clothing, linens, etc.
(rescued from a local hospital's "laundry" as they are routinely
discarded, intact).

Most recent rainfall filled them all, again (I'd assumed we were
*done* for the year -- though I've assumed that for each of
the last three storms! : )

But, one barrel obviously has a leak. Over time, it's now down
to just a few inches in the bottom of the barrel. So, we know
the leak is at or below the current water level. I don't imagine
any *other* leaks are present as I'd been "feeling" the exterior
sides for signs of moisture and never found any.

I *suspect* the leak is inthe actual bottom end of the barrel;
the reason it has slowed/stopped is possibly because the leak is
fine enough that hydrostatic pressure at this low level is just
not enough to push much water out through the crack (recall any
sediments in the water will tend to want to *fill* the crack
thus further impeding flow).

As the suspected location is on the bottom, the only approach I can
think of to locate that would be to elevate the barrel on an
"open frame", keep it level (so water comes out from the crack and
doesn't cling to the underside of the barrel to find another
path to ground) and fill it with water -- perhaps even putting
some color in the water (e.g., Miracle Grow would give it a bright
blue color and not be inconsistent with the intended use of that
water -- if I never managed to clean the MG out, completely).

[The barrel has an open mouth so I can't just "plug up the inlet"
and pressure test it]

Any other suggestions to locate the leak?

Is caulking compound (on the interior) likely to be a permanent solution?
Or, an epoxy? Or, just toss the barrel (we'd have to wait for a biannual
special pickup to discard something of this size -- unless I dragged
out a sawzall and diced it up!) and go pick up another from the laundry??
(which is also tedious as they are large and have remnants of nasty
liquids in them before you get them home and clean them)

Empty the barrel, then go out at night with a flashlight. Shine the flashlight around in the barrel and see if you can locate the hole that way. You might need a helper or a mirror for this.

Paul

On Friday, September 25, 2015 at 2:24:20 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
We have several ~55G plastic (almost nylon-ish?) barrels in which
we collect rainwater.

Just buy a can of that 'as seen on tv' crap and spray the bottom.
The crap to seal gutters and boat bottoms.

On 9/29/2015 1:29 PM, Pavel314 wrote:

Empty the barrel, then go out at night with a flashlight. Shine the
flashlight around in the barrel and see if you can locate the hole that way.
You might need a helper or a mirror for this.

The "crack" (it's definitely not a "hole" -- more likely a split along the
seam where the two halves are "welded" together) is just not obvious.
I've gone so far as to try to mechanically stress the bottom surface in
the vicinity of the seam in the hope of causing it to open up
("gape") with no luck (bottom of barrel is very thick plastic so it
doesn't readily deform).

Rain expected (again! frown) this weekend so I'm waiting for that
to pass -- which *shouldn't* have come in the first place this late
in the season!

On 9/30/2015 10:04 AM, Thomas wrote:
On Friday, September 25, 2015 at 2:24:20 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
We have several ~55G plastic (almost nylon-ish?) barrels in which
we collect rainwater.

Just buy a can of that 'as seen on tv' crap and spray the bottom.
The crap to seal gutters and boat bottoms.

I want to understand why/where the failure is occurring so I can
determine if the *other* barrels are likely to fail in a similar
manner and if there is something associated with my usage/handling that
is causing the failure. Not keen on repeating the problem (which
costs me a barrel of rainwater to *detect*!) if I can avoid it!