If you have the service agreement, never admit you tried to fix
anything. I had two flaky remotes and I tried to fix one of them by
cleaning the board and pads.

Bear in mind these are not returnable items. They send you a new one
and you throw the old one away.

When I called for a replacement they said the coverage was void
because I took it apart.
I said "so if I just threw it in the trash it would be OK"
"No then it is lost and we do not cover loss"
"But when I get the new one, I just throw the old one away"
"yes"
"How do you know I messed with it at all"
"you told us"

It just got silly from there.

I said
"OK I also have 2 OTHER bad remotes and I am afraid to touch them"

"OK great, you will have 2 new ones an a couple days"

Moral, no good deed goes unpunished. Never admit you tried to help.

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 14:04:53 -0400, wrote:

If you have the service agreement, never admit you tried to fix
anything. I had two flaky remotes and I tried to fix one of them by
cleaning the board and pads.

Bear in mind these are not returnable items. They send you a new one
and you throw the old one away.

When I called for a replacement they said the coverage was void
because I took it apart.
I said "so if I just threw it in the trash it would be OK"
"No then it is lost and we do not cover loss"
"But when I get the new one, I just throw the old one away"
"yes"
"How do you know I messed with it at all"
"you told us"

It just got silly from there.

I said
"OK I also have 2 OTHER bad remotes and I am afraid to touch them"

"OK great, you will have 2 new ones an a couple days"

Moral, no good deed goes unpunished. Never admit you tried to help.

The worse thing you can do is admit to stealing the Lindbergh baby.

Nobody will believe you.

On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 2:05:16 PM UTC-4, wrote:
If you have the service agreement, never admit you tried to fix
anything. I had two flaky remotes and I tried to fix one of them by
cleaning the board and pads.

Bear in mind these are not returnable items. They send you a new one
and you throw the old one away.

When I called for a replacement they said the coverage was void
because I took it apart.
I said "so if I just threw it in the trash it would be OK"
"No then it is lost and we do not cover loss"
"But when I get the new one, I just throw the old one away"
"yes"
"How do you know I messed with it at all"
"you told us"

It just got silly from there.

I said
"OK I also have 2 OTHER bad remotes and I am afraid to touch them"

"OK great, you will have 2 new ones an a couple days"

Moral, no good deed goes unpunished. Never admit you tried to help.

I assume the other two are actually good, so the problem is solved?
If not, I guess you can wait awhile, then claim you have another bad
one. Amazing that they have that absurd position, good way to lose
customers over a cheap remote.

On 9/22/2015 11:04 AM, wrote:
If you have the service agreement, never admit you tried to fix
anything. I had two flaky remotes and I tried to fix one of them by
cleaning the board and pads.

Bear in mind these are not returnable items. They send you a new one
and you throw the old one away.

When I called for a replacement they said the coverage was void
because I took it apart.
I said "so if I just threw it in the trash it would be OK"
"No then it is lost and we do not cover loss"
"But when I get the new one, I just throw the old one away"
"yes"
"How do you know I messed with it at all"
"you told us"

It just got silly from there.

I said
"OK I also have 2 OTHER bad remotes and I am afraid to touch them"

"OK great, you will have 2 new ones an a couple days"

Moral, no good deed goes unpunished. Never admit you tried to help.

From their point of view, how do they know you were qualified to diagnose
the piece of equipment (it could just as easily have been the DISH
tuner box with which you were tinkering!) was, in fact, 'defective'?
And, that you are even remotely qualified to disassemble (without breaking),
repair *and* reassemble it?

Given that they have to come up with a policy that addresses customers
who may well be ROCKET SCIENTISTS as well as COMPLETE IDIOTS, it seems
like the only logical choice is the one they made.

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 11:38:36 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 2:05:16 PM UTC-4, wrote:
If you have the service agreement, never admit you tried to fix
anything. I had two flaky remotes and I tried to fix one of them by
cleaning the board and pads.

Bear in mind these are not returnable items. They send you a new one
and you throw the old one away.

When I called for a replacement they said the coverage was void
because I took it apart.
I said "so if I just threw it in the trash it would be OK"
"No then it is lost and we do not cover loss"
"But when I get the new one, I just throw the old one away"
"yes"
"How do you know I messed with it at all"
"you told us"

It just got silly from there.

I said
"OK I also have 2 OTHER bad remotes and I am afraid to touch them"

"OK great, you will have 2 new ones an a couple days"

Moral, no good deed goes unpunished. Never admit you tried to help.

I assume the other two are actually good, so the problem is solved?
If not, I guess you can wait awhile, then claim you have another bad
one. Amazing that they have that absurd position, good way to lose
customers over a cheap remote.

I really could not believe it, after this stupid thread continued with
the supervisor on line.
I assume they are all script monkeys there and nobody has the power to
think.
This guy kept playing the game after I said we were talking about two
OTHER remotes. He was about to run the whole trouble shooting script
when I just gave him all the answers before he could get past "replace
the batteries".
It ended with a simple "what address do we send the remotes to."

If I had not said I actually tried to fix them before I wanted new
ones they would have simply sent me new ones.

Remember these are not supposed to be returned. They would not know if
it had a bullet hole in it. (I wasn't that mad at them anyway) ;-)

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 11:43:00 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 9/22/2015 11:04 AM, wrote:
If you have the service agreement, never admit you tried to fix
anything. I had two flaky remotes and I tried to fix one of them by
cleaning the board and pads.

Bear in mind these are not returnable items. They send you a new one
and you throw the old one away.

When I called for a replacement they said the coverage was void
because I took it apart.
I said "so if I just threw it in the trash it would be OK"
"No then it is lost and we do not cover loss"
"But when I get the new one, I just throw the old one away"
"yes"
"How do you know I messed with it at all"
"you told us"

It just got silly from there.

I said
"OK I also have 2 OTHER bad remotes and I am afraid to touch them"

"OK great, you will have 2 new ones an a couple days"

Moral, no good deed goes unpunished. Never admit you tried to help.

From their point of view, how do they know you were qualified to diagnose
the piece of equipment (it could just as easily have been the DISH
tuner box with which you were tinkering!) was, in fact, 'defective'?
And, that you are even remotely qualified to disassemble (without breaking),
repair *and* reassemble it?

Given that they have to come up with a policy that addresses customers
who may well be ROCKET SCIENTISTS as well as COMPLETE IDIOTS, it seems
like the only logical choice is the one they made.


So what, they simply send you another one anyway. It was already
broke! Me fooling with it was not going to make it worse.
In fact, cleaning it bought them a few months and a few extra payments
into the maintenance kitty. I really won't be making money on that
maintenance plan until lightning blows up both of my sat boxes.

On 9/22/2015 1:09 PM, wrote:
From their point of view, how do they know you were qualified to diagnose
the piece of equipment (it could just as easily have been the DISH
tuner box with which you were tinkering!) was, in fact, 'defective'?
And, that you are even remotely qualified to disassemble (without breaking),
repair *and* reassemble it?

Given that they have to come up with a policy that addresses customers
who may well be ROCKET SCIENTISTS as well as COMPLETE IDIOTS, it seems
like the only logical choice is the one they made.

So what, they simply send you another one anyway. It was already
broke!

They don't *know* that it was broke. The *receiver* could have been
broke. The batteries could have been dead; you may have installed
replacement batteries *backwards*, etc. All they know is the
remote function *appeared* not to work -- ACCORDING TO YOU!

Do you know how many items are returned as "broken" that, in fact,
are NOT broken? I.e., consumers are not good diagnosticians.
How do they know *your* capabilities? They mail you another remote
and your problem may or may NOT go away.

OTOH, you tinkering with their equipment leaves them at *your* mercy.

I design electronic products. I repair most electronic products
that I purchase. That doesn't mean I don't make mistakes when
performing those diagnostics/repairs. The difference is, I do
those repairs when I no longer have the recourse of a warranty
to exploit. I.e., it's broken; I MAY be able to fix it -- or,
I may break it *more*! But, *I* am assuming the risk for my
actions -- not expecting the manufacturer to pick up the
pieces if/when I screw up!

A warranty repair/replace costs *more* than the original product
cost (the manufacturer). They don't want to be fixing things
that *you* may have broken -- or, that you may have *changed*
the failure mode through your unfamiliarity with the device.

["Yeah, that's failure type XYZ001 -- replace module 23, verify
operation and ship it back to the customer" suddenly becomes
"Cripes! Who was poking around in here? Nothing is where it
should be! Just scrap the entire item..."]

Me fooling with it was not going to make it worse.
In fact, cleaning it bought them a few months and a few extra payments
into the maintenance kitty. I really won't be making money on that
maintenance plan until lightning blows up both of my sat boxes.

On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 3:34:43 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 9/22/2015 1:09 PM, wrote:
From their point of view, how do they know you were qualified to diagnose
the piece of equipment (it could just as easily have been the DISH
tuner box with which you were tinkering!) was, in fact, 'defective'?
And, that you are even remotely qualified to disassemble (without breaking),
repair *and* reassemble it?

Given that they have to come up with a policy that addresses customers
who may well be ROCKET SCIENTISTS as well as COMPLETE IDIOTS, it seems
like the only logical choice is the one they made.

So what, they simply send you another one anyway. It was already
broke!

They don't *know* that it was broke. The *receiver* could have been
broke. The batteries could have been dead; you may have installed
replacement batteries *backwards*, etc. All they know is the
remote function *appeared* not to work -- ACCORDING TO YOU!

Do you know how many items are returned as "broken" that, in fact,
are NOT broken? I.e., consumers are not good diagnosticians.
How do they know *your* capabilities? They mail you another remote
and your problem may or may NOT go away.

OTOH, you tinkering with their equipment leaves them at *your* mercy.

I design electronic products. I repair most electronic products
that I purchase. That doesn't mean I don't make mistakes when
performing those diagnostics/repairs. The difference is, I do
those repairs when I no longer have the recourse of a warranty
to exploit. I.e., it's broken; I MAY be able to fix it -- or,
I may break it *more*! But, *I* am assuming the risk for my
actions -- not expecting the manufacturer to pick up the
pieces if/when I screw up!

A warranty repair/replace costs *more* than the original product
cost (the manufacturer). They don't want to be fixing things
that *you* may have broken -- or, that you may have *changed*
the failure mode through your unfamiliarity with the device.

["Yeah, that's failure type XYZ001 -- replace module 23, verify
operation and ship it back to the customer" suddenly becomes
"Cripes! Who was poking around in here? Nothing is where it
should be! Just scrap the entire item..."]

Me fooling with it was not going to make it worse.
In fact, cleaning it bought them a few months and a few extra payments
into the maintenance kitty. I really won't be making money on that
maintenance plan until lightning blows up both of my sat boxes.

When you design a product, does a production engineer get hold of it and spec the least expensive parts that will make the product work or do you have control of how the item is produced? I've seen bean counters ruin some perfectly good equipment. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Bean Monster

On 9/22/2015 1:44 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
When you design a product, does a production engineer get hold of it and
spec the least expensive parts that will make the product work or do you
have control of how the item is produced? I've seen bean counters ruin some
perfectly good equipment. o_O

I design to a formal specification. That includes cost (to
manufacture)/pricing (to sell) targets -- which also have to reflect the
cost of in-warranty repairs (I can't factor in the "cost of good-will -- when
a defect or poor performance costs you a customer).

So, no one tends to touch a design other to choose between "equivalent"
components that I specify/qualify in the Bill of Materials, etc.

One place I worked at, some "buyer" took it upon himself to buy a
metric buttload of a particular component "at a great price". The
cost to *rework* all of the machines built with those components
was astronomical! It became a sort of inside joke to spring on
the purchasing folks any time they started "getting creative":
"When *you're* the engineer, then *you* can decide what parts
get purchased. Just like *I* can't decide which distributor
*you* will choose to place the order with! Even if one disti
was particularly helpful to me in selecting the components
at design time."

On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 3:51:54 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 9/22/2015 1:44 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
When you design a product, does a production engineer get hold of it and
spec the least expensive parts that will make the product work or do you
have control of how the item is produced? I've seen bean counters ruin some
perfectly good equipment. o_O

I design to a formal specification. That includes cost (to
manufacture)/pricing (to sell) targets -- which also have to reflect the
cost of in-warranty repairs (I can't factor in the "cost of good-will -- when
a defect or poor performance costs you a customer).

So, no one tends to touch a design other to choose between "equivalent"
components that I specify/qualify in the Bill of Materials, etc.

One place I worked at, some "buyer" took it upon himself to buy a
metric buttload of a particular component "at a great price". The
cost to *rework* all of the machines built with those components
was astronomical! It became a sort of inside joke to spring on
the purchasing folks any time they started "getting creative":
"When *you're* the engineer, then *you* can decide what parts
get purchased. Just like *I* can't decide which distributor
*you* will choose to place the order with! Even if one disti
was particularly helpful to me in selecting the components
at design time."

I would imagine you're not designing commodity consumer products. I like commercial and industrial equipment but I've always loved aerospace and military gear because there were no compromises when it came to materials, workmanship and QC. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Design Monster

On 9/22/2015 3:35 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/22/2015 1:09 PM, wrote:
From their point of view, how do they know you were qualified to
diagnose
the piece of equipment (it could just as easily have been the DISH
tuner box with which you were tinkering!) was, in fact, 'defective'?
And, that you are even remotely qualified to disassemble (without
breaking),
repair *and* reassemble it?

Given that they have to come up with a policy that addresses customers
who may well be ROCKET SCIENTISTS as well as COMPLETE IDIOTS, it seems
like the only logical choice is the one they made.

So what, they simply send you another one anyway. It was already
broke!

They don't *know* that it was broke. The *receiver* could have been
broke. The batteries could have been dead; you may have installed
replacement batteries *backwards*, etc. All they know is the
remote function *appeared* not to work -- ACCORDING TO YOU!

Do you know how many items are returned as "broken" that, in fact,
are NOT broken? I.e., consumers are not good diagnosticians.
How do they know *your* capabilities? They mail you another remote
and your problem may or may NOT go away.

OTOH, you tinkering with their equipment leaves them at *your* mercy.

I design electronic products. I repair most electronic products
that I purchase. That doesn't mean I don't make mistakes when
performing those diagnostics/repairs. The difference is, I do
those repairs when I no longer have the recourse of a warranty
to exploit. I.e., it's broken; I MAY be able to fix it -- or,
I may break it *more*! But, *I* am assuming the risk for my
actions -- not expecting the manufacturer to pick up the
pieces if/when I screw up!

A warranty repair/replace costs *more* than the original product
cost (the manufacturer). They don't want to be fixing things
that *you* may have broken -- or, that you may have *changed*
the failure mode through your unfamiliarity with the device.

["Yeah, that's failure type XYZ001 -- replace module 23, verify
operation and ship it back to the customer" suddenly becomes
"Cripes! Who was poking around in here? Nothing is where it
should be! Just scrap the entire item..."]

Me fooling with it was not going to make it worse.
In fact, cleaning it bought them a few months and a few extra payments
into the maintenance kitty. I really won't be making money on that
maintenance plan until lightning blows up both of my sat boxes.



My daughter used to work for Dish Network as a tech. Some of the calls
she describes to me are hysterical.

"Ma'am, is the receiver plugged in?"

"uh, what's a plug?"

"You know that chord on the back of the receiver that goes into the wall
to get power?"

"yeah. Is that the plug?"

"Yes, Ma'am."

....

"My satellite isn't working!! I can't get anything on the TV!"

"Is your TV turned on?"

"No. The power's been out for a couple of hours now."

....

Those were REAL discussions she had with a couple of customers.

--
Maggie

"Don Y" wrote in message
...

They don't *know* that it was broke. The *receiver* could have been
broke. The batteries could have been dead; you may have installed
replacement batteries *backwards*, etc. All they know is the
remote function *appeared* not to work -- ACCORDING TO YOU!

Do you know how many items are returned as "broken" that, in fact,
are NOT broken? I.e., consumers are not good diagnosticians.
How do they know *your* capabilities? They mail you another remote
and your problem may or may NOT go away.


I can agree with that . I worked in a very large plant making polyester.
Worked as a trouble shooter for part of the time.
Got a call one night the machine would not start. Went out and the fellow
said it would not start and he was pressing the RED button (which is the
stop button) and said 'see, it won't start'. Said to him' look you big dumb
ass try the GREEN button'.
I could tell lots of stories like that if I had the time.

About once a year the cable TV went out. First time I found out it blew a
fuse somewhere down the line from my house. Called them about 6 or 8 times
for the same problem over the years and still let them go through their
scrip but as I had already tried things, just answered them. Then they send
out the 'inside man' to check the house. He calls the 'out side man' to go
and check where the fuse is.
After the second time I tried to tell the phone person to send the 'outside'
man but they never do, so quit trying to tell them anything.

On 9/22/2015 2:20 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
I would imagine you're not designing commodity consumer products.

Consumer is a vague term that depends on the sort of customer you
imagine.

If I design a plotter for a fisherman to use on a boat, is he a
consumer? Or, do you consider that "fishing industry"?

Or, what if I design a (marine) autopilot, instead? Does that prevent
someone who owns a *yacht* from purchasing it (because it was
originally designed with a lobsterman in mind)?

If I design a (arcade) game (or gambling device), are the "customers"
the folks who push coins into it? Or, the ones who *operate* it?

If I design a computer peripheral, does it matter who decides to actually
purchase it -- business/consumer?

I like commercial and industrial equipment but I've always loved aerospace
and military gear because there were no compromises when it came to
materials, workmanship and QC.

I've not done any military work for more than 30 years. For the most
part, they were "uninspired" designs -- just throw lots of money at
a problem! (instead of approaching it cleverly)

Even industrial projects are not without cost constraints. Sure,
you don't want something to break/need attention as that could
shut down a production line or cost the "owner" (your customer)
sales. But, at the same time, you don't want to force them
to treat every item as "precious" simply because its WAY FRIGGING
EXPENSIVE!

I designed a medical instrument that "cost" ~$300 to build. They
were *priced* at $6,000 (!). Yet, most of them were *given* away
(as an inducement to other sales -- end user thinks they are
getting a $6,000 gift; but, it's only costing *my* customer $300!)

Presently, the designs I'm working on are what you would typically call
"consumer" -- sold to end users with lots of pricing pressure. So,
the traditional way of thinking is to cut all costs as low as
possible.

OTOH, even if the items are $30-$300 and, as such, borderline
"disposable" (surely anything in the $30-100 range would be!),
that doesn't mean your customers will look kindly on the
inconvenience of having to replace things "too often".

E.g., if your iPhone was $99.95 -- but had to be replaced
every time you dropped it or sat on it (back pocket), you'd
quickly tire of those $100 shopping trips. EVEN IF YOUR
TOTAL COSTS WERE LESS THAN A "real" iPhone presently!

So, i take a lot of interest in understanding *why* things
break; why users *think* things are broken (that are NOT, in
fact, broken), etc. The philosophy being to have them *so*
happy with the $99.95 iPhone that they WANT to buy a second
(or third) -- not that they *have* to!

"Uncle Monster" wrote in message
...
I would imagine you're not designing commodity consumer products. I like
commercial and industrial equipment but I've always loved aerospace and
military gear because there were no compromises when it came to materials,
workmanship and QC. ^_^


There is no compromises on the money. Not too long ago some substandard
bolts was used. Actualy a company sent in below standard parts marked as
good quality.

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 13:35:03 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

So what, they simply send you another one anyway. It was already
broke!

They don't *know* that it was broke. The *receiver* could have been
broke. The batteries could have been dead; you may have installed
replacement batteries *backwards*, etc. All they know is the
remote function *appeared* not to work -- ACCORDING TO YOU!

Do you know how many items are returned as "broken" that, in fact,
are NOT broken? I.e., consumers are not good diagnosticians.
How do they know *your* capabilities? They mail you another remote
and your problem may or may NOT go away.

OTOH, you tinkering with their equipment leaves them at *your* mercy.

I design electronic products. I repair most electronic products
that I purchase. That doesn't mean I don't make mistakes when
performing those diagnostics/repairs. The difference is, I do
those repairs when I no longer have the recourse of a warranty
to exploit. I.e., it's broken; I MAY be able to fix it -- or,
I may break it *more*! But, *I* am assuming the risk for my
actions -- not expecting the manufacturer to pick up the
pieces if/when I screw up!

A warranty repair/replace costs *more* than the original product
cost (the manufacturer). They don't want to be fixing things
that *you* may have broken -- or, that you may have *changed*
the failure mode through your unfamiliarity with the device.

["Yeah, that's failure type XYZ001 -- replace module 23, verify
operation and ship it back to the customer" suddenly becomes
"Cripes! Who was poking around in here? Nothing is where it
should be! Just scrap the entire item..."]

What part of "this is not a returnable item" are you having trouble
with?
The "know" it is bad because I tell them so. That is all they have.

Since the problem was that a couple of buttons did not work without
really pressing them hard, your battery comment is simply chaff in the
conversation.

I am sending these people $8 a month for a maintenance agreement and
if they have to send me a new $5 remote (a generous price for a
chinese product) every now and then, so be it.

BTW I was field support for IBM for 30 years, about half of it as
region support on a number of products, working on things a lot more
complex than a remote control. I don't need you or anyone else
questioning my opinion of what was wrong with this. Opening it up and
cleaning the pads had already spared them sending me one 6 months ago.

I am just pointing out, a painless replacement is if you just say "the
mother ****er broke".
Then it will be, "OK then we will send you a new one".

Anything else is not a wise choice.

On 9/22/2015 3:22 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 13:35:03 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

So what, they simply send you another one anyway. It was already
broke!

They don't *know* that it was broke. The *receiver* could have been
broke. The batteries could have been dead; you may have installed
replacement batteries *backwards*, etc. All they know is the
remote function *appeared* not to work -- ACCORDING TO YOU!

Do you know how many items are returned as "broken" that, in fact,
are NOT broken? I.e., consumers are not good diagnosticians.
How do they know *your* capabilities? They mail you another remote
and your problem may or may NOT go away.

OTOH, you tinkering with their equipment leaves them at *your* mercy.

I design electronic products. I repair most electronic products
that I purchase. That doesn't mean I don't make mistakes when
performing those diagnostics/repairs. The difference is, I do
those repairs when I no longer have the recourse of a warranty
to exploit. I.e., it's broken; I MAY be able to fix it -- or,
I may break it *more*! But, *I* am assuming the risk for my
actions -- not expecting the manufacturer to pick up the
pieces if/when I screw up!

A warranty repair/replace costs *more* than the original product
cost (the manufacturer). They don't want to be fixing things
that *you* may have broken -- or, that you may have *changed*
the failure mode through your unfamiliarity with the device.

["Yeah, that's failure type XYZ001 -- replace module 23, verify
operation and ship it back to the customer" suddenly becomes
"Cripes! Who was poking around in here? Nothing is where it
should be! Just scrap the entire item..."]

What part of "this is not a returnable item" are you having trouble
with?
The "know" it is bad because I tell them so. That is all they have.

Since the problem was that a couple of buttons did not work without
really pressing them hard, your battery comment is simply chaff in the
conversation.

I am sending these people $8 a month for a maintenance agreement and
if they have to send me a new $5 remote (a generous price for a
chinese product) every now and then, so be it.

BTW I was field support for IBM for 30 years, about half of it as
region support on a number of products, working on things a lot more
complex than a remote control. I don't need you or anyone else
questioning my opinion of what was wrong with this. Opening it up and
cleaning the pads had already spared them sending me one 6 months ago.

With all that experience, you still thought it wise to tell them
"I decided to take matters into my own hands and disassemble the
unit AFTER having read the terms of my service agreement that
expressly forbid warranty coverage for that action"?

Seems like you didn't learn much in those 30 years...

I am just pointing out, a painless replacement is if you just say "the
mother ****er broke".
Then it will be, "OK then we will send you a new one".

Anything else is not a wise choice.

On 9/22/2015 3:09 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Don Y" wrote in message
...

They don't *know* that it was broke. The *receiver* could have been
broke. The batteries could have been dead; you may have installed
replacement batteries *backwards*, etc. All they know is the
remote function *appeared* not to work -- ACCORDING TO YOU!

Do you know how many items are returned as "broken" that, in fact,
are NOT broken? I.e., consumers are not good diagnosticians.
How do they know *your* capabilities? They mail you another remote
and your problem may or may NOT go away.

I can agree with that . I worked in a very large plant making polyester.
Worked as a trouble shooter for part of the time.
Got a call one night the machine would not start. Went out and the fellow
said it would not start and he was pressing the RED button (which is the
stop button) and said 'see, it won't start'. Said to him' look you big dumb
ass try the GREEN button'.
I could tell lots of stories like that if I had the time.

About once a year the cable TV went out. First time I found out it blew a
fuse somewhere down the line from my house. Called them about 6 or 8 times
for the same problem over the years and still let them go through their
scrip but as I had already tried things, just answered them. Then they send
out the 'inside man' to check the house. He calls the 'out side man' to go
and check where the fuse is.
After the second time I tried to tell the phone person to send the 'outside'
man but they never do, so quit trying to tell them anything.

The same problem also exists in reverse -- "technicians" thinking the
customer/user is an idiot and NOT taking him/her for granted.

When we had DSL, I was encountering lots of "line noise" problems
(cables are all below grade, here, so water infiltration often compromises
a cable). Technician came out to test the line. Chatted with him
for a bit while he was setting up, etc. So, he had some idea as to
my technical abilities.

After running a battery of tests, he shook his head and said, "Looks good",
and was getting ready to pack up and leave ("No fault found"). I asked
him to humor me. As we were having a good discussion, he opted to do so.
Some 4 or 5 minutes later, the noise floor shot up tremendously! He
clipped his handset to the pair and could barely make out the *dial* tone!

"Yikes! Looks like you've got a problem, here!"

I've learned with any "professional" who shows up to do some repair that
it is in my best interest to engage them in conversation so they understand
the quality of my comments and don't rush to dismiss them (on the work
order they've been given) as they might for one of my neighbors. Having
to call them *back* isn't a win for *anyone*!

I detected a slight natural gas odor (rotten eggs) after a plumber had
done some work on the gas line, here. He double checked it (soapy
water test) and dismissed it as a figment of my imagination.

I borrowed a portable mass spectrometer from a friend who was the
Safety Officer at a local hospital. With this as a "sniffer", went
in search of the leak.

Called the plumber *back* (after having returned the instrument) and
pointed him at the *exact* location that I had isolated. Again,
the soapy water comes out. But, this time, he's far more patient
and sits for a good 5 minutes watching for bubbles.

"Wow! That's such a *tiny* leak! How the hell could you smell
that with your nose??"

On 9/22/2015 3:04 PM, Muggles wrote:
On 9/22/2015 3:35 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/22/2015 1:09 PM, wrote:
From their point of view, how do they know you were qualified to
diagnose
the piece of equipment (it could just as easily have been the DISH
tuner box with which you were tinkering!) was, in fact, 'defective'?
And, that you are even remotely qualified to disassemble (without
breaking),
repair *and* reassemble it?

Given that they have to come up with a policy that addresses customers
who may well be ROCKET SCIENTISTS as well as COMPLETE IDIOTS, it seems
like the only logical choice is the one they made.

So what, they simply send you another one anyway. It was already
broke!

They don't *know* that it was broke. The *receiver* could have been
broke. The batteries could have been dead; you may have installed
replacement batteries *backwards*, etc. All they know is the
remote function *appeared* not to work -- ACCORDING TO YOU!

Do you know how many items are returned as "broken" that, in fact,
are NOT broken? I.e., consumers are not good diagnosticians.
How do they know *your* capabilities? They mail you another remote
and your problem may or may NOT go away.

OTOH, you tinkering with their equipment leaves them at *your* mercy.

I design electronic products. I repair most electronic products
that I purchase. That doesn't mean I don't make mistakes when
performing those diagnostics/repairs. The difference is, I do
those repairs when I no longer have the recourse of a warranty
to exploit. I.e., it's broken; I MAY be able to fix it -- or,
I may break it *more*! But, *I* am assuming the risk for my
actions -- not expecting the manufacturer to pick up the
pieces if/when I screw up!

A warranty repair/replace costs *more* than the original product
cost (the manufacturer). They don't want to be fixing things
that *you* may have broken -- or, that you may have *changed*
the failure mode through your unfamiliarity with the device.

["Yeah, that's failure type XYZ001 -- replace module 23, verify
operation and ship it back to the customer" suddenly becomes
"Cripes! Who was poking around in here? Nothing is where it
should be! Just scrap the entire item..."]

Me fooling with it was not going to make it worse.
In fact, cleaning it bought them a few months and a few extra payments
into the maintenance kitty. I really won't be making money on that
maintenance plan until lightning blows up both of my sat boxes.



My daughter used to work for Dish Network as a tech. Some of the calls
she describes to me are hysterical.

"Ma'am, is the receiver plugged in?"

"uh, what's a plug?"

"You know that chord on the back of the receiver that goes into the wall
to get power?"

"yeah. Is that the plug?"

"Yes, Ma'am."

....

"My satellite isn't working!! I can't get anything on the TV!"

"Is your TV turned on?"

"No. The power's been out for a couple of hours now."

....

Those were REAL discussions she had with a couple of customers.

It's not that people are "stupid". But, most aren't analytical
thinkers. They don't have the mindset, skillset or inclination
to sit down and sort out the exact nature of a problem.

Now, they're in a frustrating situation (whatever isn't working
for some reason) *and* you want them to be calm and logical in
thinking about the source of their frustration?? :

This is one of the main reasons why brand new (obviously working!)
items are returned for refunds: the user is unnecessarily intimidated
by a device that doesn't work the way he *hopes* it will work!

I get frustrated when vendors/manufacturers assume *all* users are
inept and reduce a "problem" to a bogus error code (analogous to
an idiot light!). Why not indicate what you were *trying* to do
and what UNEXPECTED condition was detected? That way, instead of
conveying an error code to a support person -- and waiting for them
to look it up in The Big Book of Error Codes -- I can possibly
check some of the things that YOUR message *suggests* -- either
explicitly in the text of the message or *implicitly* as I ponder
what the message might mean?!

I had a recent piece of software crash miserably during installation
simply because a network cable was not plugged into the network jack
on the computer! The software didn't care if the network was
accessible -- just that the network *interface* was "up"! Had
the error message included the characters "n e t w o r k" in it
ANYWHERE, I would have explored this option immediately! :-/
Instead, I look at the software as "of poor quality".

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 15:27:16 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 9/22/2015 3:22 PM, wrote:

With all that experience, you still thought it wise to tell them
"I decided to take matters into my own hands and disassemble the
unit AFTER having read the terms of my service agreement that
expressly forbid warranty coverage for that action"?

The last time this happened the guy on the phone TOLD ME TO DO IT
before they would send me a new one.
This time was a net chat

Seems like you didn't learn much in those 30 years...

I certainly leaned something today. Just act dumb and say the MF is
broke.
If they want you to try something say that is too hard.

Uncle Monster wrote:
On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 3:34:43 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 9/22/2015 1:09 PM, wrote:
From their point of view, how do they know you were qualified to diagnose
the piece of equipment (it could just as easily have been the DISH
tuner box with which you were tinkering!) was, in fact, 'defective'?
And, that you are even remotely qualified to disassemble (without breaking),
repair *and* reassemble it?

Given that they have to come up with a policy that addresses customers
who may well be ROCKET SCIENTISTS as well as COMPLETE IDIOTS, it seems
like the only logical choice is the one they made.

So what, they simply send you another one anyway. It was already
broke!

They don't *know* that it was broke. The *receiver* could have been
broke. The batteries could have been dead; you may have installed
replacement batteries *backwards*, etc. All they know is the
remote function *appeared* not to work -- ACCORDING TO YOU!

Do you know how many items are returned as "broken" that, in fact,
are NOT broken? I.e., consumers are not good diagnosticians.
How do they know *your* capabilities? They mail you another remote
and your problem may or may NOT go away.

OTOH, you tinkering with their equipment leaves them at *your* mercy.

I design electronic products. I repair most electronic products
that I purchase. That doesn't mean I don't make mistakes when
performing those diagnostics/repairs. The difference is, I do
those repairs when I no longer have the recourse of a warranty
to exploit. I.e., it's broken; I MAY be able to fix it -- or,
I may break it *more*! But, *I* am assuming the risk for my
actions -- not expecting the manufacturer to pick up the
pieces if/when I screw up!

A warranty repair/replace costs *more* than the original product
cost (the manufacturer). They don't want to be fixing things
that *you* may have broken -- or, that you may have *changed*
the failure mode through your unfamiliarity with the device.

["Yeah, that's failure type XYZ001 -- replace module 23, verify
operation and ship it back to the customer" suddenly becomes
"Cripes! Who was poking around in here? Nothing is where it
should be! Just scrap the entire item..."]

Me fooling with it was not going to make it worse.
In fact, cleaning it bought them a few months and a few extra payments
into the maintenance kitty. I really won't be making money on that
maintenance plan until lightning blows up both of my sat boxes.

When you design a product, does a production engineer get hold of it and spec the least expensive parts that will make the product work or do you have control of how the item is produced? I've seen bean counters ruin some perfectly good equipment. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Bean Monster

Bean counters are making decisions, not engineers.
Some times bean counters demise good product and
it's manufacturer into ground. Way back Chrysler was
an example. When accountant became a CEO, company started
going down hill. He was deaf to engineers no matter what.

Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Uncle Monster" wrote in message
...
I would imagine you're not designing commodity consumer products. I like
commercial and industrial equipment but I've always loved aerospace and
military gear because there were no compromises when it came to materials,
workmanship and QC. ^_^


There is no compromises on the money. Not too long ago some substandard
bolts was used. Actualy a company sent in below standard parts marked as
good quality.


And bunch of military helicopters crashed. Coz of substandard bolt
produced in Japan. After that incident all parts arestamped with s/n
and tracked. When I quit DOFD job and came back to commercial world.
I was shocked looking at the things they make and assemble. As simple
as making a solder joint was no good to me(mil-spec. trained and oriented)

Don Y wrote:
On 9/22/2015 3:04 PM, Muggles wrote:
On 9/22/2015 3:35 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/22/2015 1:09 PM, wrote:
From their point of view, how do they know you were qualified to
diagnose
the piece of equipment (it could just as easily have been the DISH
tuner box with which you were tinkering!) was, in fact, 'defective'?
And, that you are even remotely qualified to disassemble (without
breaking),
repair *and* reassemble it?

Given that they have to come up with a policy that addresses customers
who may well be ROCKET SCIENTISTS as well as COMPLETE IDIOTS, it seems
like the only logical choice is the one they made.

So what, they simply send you another one anyway. It was already
broke!

They don't *know* that it was broke. The *receiver* could have been
broke. The batteries could have been dead; you may have installed
replacement batteries *backwards*, etc. All they know is the
remote function *appeared* not to work -- ACCORDING TO YOU!

Do you know how many items are returned as "broken" that, in fact,
are NOT broken? I.e., consumers are not good diagnosticians.
How do they know *your* capabilities? They mail you another remote
and your problem may or may NOT go away.

OTOH, you tinkering with their equipment leaves them at *your* mercy.

I design electronic products. I repair most electronic products
that I purchase. That doesn't mean I don't make mistakes when
performing those diagnostics/repairs. The difference is, I do
those repairs when I no longer have the recourse of a warranty
to exploit. I.e., it's broken; I MAY be able to fix it -- or,
I may break it *more*! But, *I* am assuming the risk for my
actions -- not expecting the manufacturer to pick up the
pieces if/when I screw up!

A warranty repair/replace costs *more* than the original product
cost (the manufacturer). They don't want to be fixing things
that *you* may have broken -- or, that you may have *changed*
the failure mode through your unfamiliarity with the device.

["Yeah, that's failure type XYZ001 -- replace module 23, verify
operation and ship it back to the customer" suddenly becomes
"Cripes! Who was poking around in here? Nothing is where it
should be! Just scrap the entire item..."]

Me fooling with it was not going to make it worse.
In fact, cleaning it bought them a few months and a few extra payments
into the maintenance kitty. I really won't be making money on that
maintenance plan until lightning blows up both of my sat boxes.



My daughter used to work for Dish Network as a tech. Some of the calls
she describes to me are hysterical.

"Ma'am, is the receiver plugged in?"

"uh, what's a plug?"

"You know that chord on the back of the receiver that goes into the wall
to get power?"

"yeah. Is that the plug?"

"Yes, Ma'am."

....

"My satellite isn't working!! I can't get anything on the TV!"

"Is your TV turned on?"

"No. The power's been out for a couple of hours now."

....

Those were REAL discussions she had with a couple of customers.

It's not that people are "stupid". But, most aren't analytical
thinkers. They don't have the mindset, skillset or inclination
to sit down and sort out the exact nature of a problem.

All becoming button pushing robots. I never call tech support.
For the time spent with them, I'll figure problem out. I as much as I
can purchase top tier pro. grade product and use them long time.
Probably at the end I save money and I keep my BP down.

Now, they're in a frustrating situation (whatever isn't working
for some reason) *and* you want them to be calm and logical in
thinking about the source of their frustration?? :

This is one of the main reasons why brand new (obviously working!)
items are returned for refunds: the user is unnecessarily intimidated
by a device that doesn't work the way he *hopes* it will work!

I get frustrated when vendors/manufacturers assume *all* users are
inept and reduce a "problem" to a bogus error code (analogous to
an idiot light!). Why not indicate what you were *trying* to do
and what UNEXPECTED condition was detected? That way, instead of
conveying an error code to a support person -- and waiting for them
to look it up in The Big Book of Error Codes -- I can possibly
check some of the things that YOUR message *suggests* -- either
explicitly in the text of the message or *implicitly* as I ponder
what the message might mean?!

I had a recent piece of software crash miserably during installation
simply because a network cable was not plugged into the network jack
on the computer! The software didn't care if the network was
accessible -- just that the network *interface* was "up"! Had
the error message included the characters "n e t w o r k" in it
ANYWHERE, I would have explored this option immediately! :-/
Instead, I look at the software as "of poor quality".

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 17:29:37 -0600, Tony Hwang
wrote:

Bean counters are making decisions, not engineers.

It is not quite that simple. Bean counters are telling engineers to
make it as cheap as possible, not as strong or reliable as possible
and the engineers do it.
I have fixed lots of things and I am amazed at the part they chose.
You see quarter watt resistors burned up where an extra penny for a
half watt resistor would have lasted forever.
When I was in the computer business there was a closed loop process
where field experience was allowed to shade the book learning the
engineers brought to the table. Unfortunately even my company was
overtaken by the "wal marting" of American.
They actually told us to throw away our "six sigma" quality hats and
we got "Market Driven Quality" hats, implying that we would not
provide more quality than the customer was willing to pay for.

http://gfretwell.com/electrical/mdq.jpg

On 9/22/2015 8:07 PM, wrote:

They actually told us to throw away our "six sigma" quality hats and
we got "Market Driven Quality" hats, implying that we would not
provide more quality than the customer was willing to pay for.

http://gfretwell.com/electrical/mdq.jpg

We get what we deserve? The market seems to be putting price over
quality these days. Fewer and fewer people appreciate a well made long
lasting product. When I buy cheap, I can have more "stuff" even it it
is crap.

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 21:29:27 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 9/22/2015 8:07 PM, wrote:

They actually told us to throw away our "six sigma" quality hats and
we got "Market Driven Quality" hats, implying that we would not
provide more quality than the customer was willing to pay for.

http://gfretwell.com/electrical/mdq.jpg

We get what we deserve? The market seems to be putting price over
quality these days. Fewer and fewer people appreciate a well made long
lasting product. When I buy cheap, I can have more "stuff" even it it
is crap.

That also eliminates the need for a service organization and parts
logistics. The product is a Bic lighter. You use it until it breaks
then toss it. If it breaks during the warranty they just give you
another one.
Nobody fixes anything.
There used to be a TV repair shop on every corner, now I am not sure
where I would even find one.

On 9/22/2015 9:50 PM, wrote:

We get what we deserve? The market seems to be putting price over
quality these days. Fewer and fewer people appreciate a well made long
lasting product. When I buy cheap, I can have more "stuff" even it it
is crap.

That also eliminates the need for a service organization and parts
logistics. The product is a Bic lighter. You use it until it breaks
then toss it. If it breaks during the warranty they just give you
another one.
Nobody fixes anything.
There used to be a TV repair shop on every corner, now I am not sure
where I would even find one.


Last time I took a TV for service the repair was half the cost of a new
TV and it lasted a couple of months. That was about 10 years ago.

On 9/22/2015 6:29 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/22/2015 8:07 PM, wrote:

They actually told us to throw away our "six sigma" quality hats and
we got "Market Driven Quality" hats, implying that we would not
provide more quality than the customer was willing to pay for.

http://gfretwell.com/electrical/mdq.jpg

We get what we deserve?

No! We get what the *masses* deserve! That's the problem! If
*you* (I) want quality and are willing to pay for it, you often
don't have a *choice*! Too many bottom-feeders are driving the
product offerings for EVERYONE!

The market seems to be putting price over quality
these days. Fewer and fewer people appreciate a well made long lasting
product. When I buy cheap, I can have more "stuff" even it it is crap.

Don Y wrote:
....
It's not that people are "stupid". But, most aren't analytical
thinkers. They don't have the mindset, skillset or inclination
to sit down and sort out the exact nature of a problem.

Now, they're in a frustrating situation (whatever isn't working
for some reason) *and* you want them to be calm and logical in
thinking about the source of their frustration?? :

This is one of the main reasons why brand new (obviously working!)
items are returned for refunds: the user is unnecessarily intimidated
by a device that doesn't work the way he *hopes* it will work!

I get frustrated when vendors/manufacturers assume *all* users are
inept and reduce a "problem" to a bogus error code (analogous to
an idiot light!). Why not indicate what you were *trying* to do
and what UNEXPECTED condition was detected? That way, instead of
conveying an error code to a support person -- and waiting for them
to look it up in The Big Book of Error Codes -- I can possibly
check some of the things that YOUR message *suggests* -- either
explicitly in the text of the message or *implicitly* as I ponder
what the message might mean?!

I had a recent piece of software crash miserably during installation
simply because a network cable was not plugged into the network jack
on the computer! The software didn't care if the network was
accessible -- just that the network *interface* was "up"! Had
the error message included the characters "n e t w o r k" in it
ANYWHERE, I would have explored this option immediately! :-/
Instead, I look at the software as "of poor quality".

there is a large amount of poorly designed stuff coming out
these days...

my recent example was a stereo receiver that worked fine
except i could not set the stereo channels unless it were
plugged into an HDMI TV (which we don't have). after
reading several thousand messages, searching elsewhere on-
line and reading the manual (only available on-line), there
was no other way to do it. so i ended up returning it
the next day and bought a different unit (for $50 less
from another company) which did have the buttons on the
front for setting the stations. now everything works that
i need to have happen, but i can't figure out how to
clear a preset station... nothing too important there as
i can always set them to the same station we listen to.

as for cheap products that don't last my previous
keyboard for the computer lasted about 6 months before
the keycaps wore out and the space bar started sticking.
the keyboard i'm using now should last longer than me.


songbird

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 19:42:58 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 9/22/2015 6:29 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/22/2015 8:07 PM, wrote:

They actually told us to throw away our "six sigma" quality hats and
we got "Market Driven Quality" hats, implying that we would not
provide more quality than the customer was willing to pay for.

http://gfretwell.com/electrical/mdq.jpg

We get what we deserve?

No! We get what the *masses* deserve! That's the problem! If
*you* (I) want quality and are willing to pay for it, you often
don't have a *choice*! Too many bottom-feeders are driving the
product offerings for EVERYONE!


Well, most of the manufactured goods I buy are "suitable."
Sometimes I will pay a premium price if that's what it take to meet
the suitable standard. Still less expensive than in the past.
Washing machines and refrigerators are exceptions. They're a crap
shoot.
But I what I REALLY miss the most is good bakery items.
There's just no substitute for the Swedish and German bakeries
that used to be all over the place in the Chicago area.
Dunkin Donuts played a hand in their demise.
That's my personal view, of course.

On 2015-09-23, Vic Smith wrote:
Washing machines and refrigerators are exceptions. They're a crap
shoot.

If you want old-school quality in a washing machine go with Speed Queen.

But I what I REALLY miss the most is good bakery items.
There's just no substitute for the Swedish and German bakeries
that used to be all over the place in the Chicago area.
Dunkin Donuts played a hand in their demise.

Those and supermarkets that have their own bakeries inside have meant the
end of a lot of independent bakeries.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled.)

NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 9/22/2015 8:19 PM, Vic Smith wrote:

Well, most of the manufactured goods I buy are "suitable."

I'd say "adequate". Usually I prefer things a bit more "upper shelf"
than the standard fare. I've often stated that I would pay *double* for
most things for the ASSURANCE (not "guarantee") that they *won't* break!
Of course, you typically end up paying more and they *still* break!

Sometimes I will pay a premium price if that's what it take to meet
the suitable standard. Still less expensive than in the past.
Washing machines and refrigerators are exceptions. They're a crap
shoot.

Refrigerators downright terrify me! Prices through the roof and
salespeople that outright DOWNPLAY the expected product lifespan!
"Cripes, you want me to pay THAT and you are telling me it's NOT
going to last the 20 years that my current one has lasted?? I
don't care if it uses ZERO electricity, the TCO is outrageous!!"

But I what I REALLY miss the most is good bakery items.
There's just no substitute for the Swedish and German bakeries
that used to be all over the place in the Chicago area.

I do most of my own baking -- and most of the things that I make
aren't typically found in commercial bakeries (too "ethnic").
This, of course, is a self-limiting process -- there's only so
much you can bake before getting tired of it! (Biscotti last night;
raisin bread this coming weekend)

What I miss are good *butchers* (I loved Schmeisser's in Niles)
and Italian deli's and restaurants (Beantown and NYC for those).
And, a *good* bagel (haven't had one of those in decades!)

Oh, and Cappy Dogs (Capitol Lunch). Mmmmm... I could have half a dozen
tight now!! :

Dunkin Donuts played a hand in their demise.
That's my personal view, of course.

Even *good* donuts are hard to come by! We had a little Ma&Pa
donut shop up the corner. They operated it more like a hobby:
they'd make a batch of donuts -- and stay open until they were
sold out (hours!). Then, the next time they felt the urge to
make a batch, the process would repeat. I.e., you never knew
when or if they'd be open -- so, if you drove by and they
WERE open, you ALWAYS stopped!

On 9/22/2015 5:55 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/22/2015 3:04 PM, Muggles wrote:
On 9/22/2015 3:35 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/22/2015 1:09 PM, wrote:
From their point of view, how do they know you were qualified to
diagnose
the piece of equipment (it could just as easily have been the DISH
tuner box with which you were tinkering!) was, in fact, 'defective'?
And, that you are even remotely qualified to disassemble (without
breaking),
repair *and* reassemble it?

Given that they have to come up with a policy that addresses customers
who may well be ROCKET SCIENTISTS as well as COMPLETE IDIOTS, it seems
like the only logical choice is the one they made.

So what, they simply send you another one anyway. It was already
broke!

They don't *know* that it was broke. The *receiver* could have been
broke. The batteries could have been dead; you may have installed
replacement batteries *backwards*, etc. All they know is the
remote function *appeared* not to work -- ACCORDING TO YOU!

Do you know how many items are returned as "broken" that, in fact,
are NOT broken? I.e., consumers are not good diagnosticians.
How do they know *your* capabilities? They mail you another remote
and your problem may or may NOT go away.

OTOH, you tinkering with their equipment leaves them at *your* mercy.

I design electronic products. I repair most electronic products
that I purchase. That doesn't mean I don't make mistakes when
performing those diagnostics/repairs. The difference is, I do
those repairs when I no longer have the recourse of a warranty
to exploit. I.e., it's broken; I MAY be able to fix it -- or,
I may break it *more*! But, *I* am assuming the risk for my
actions -- not expecting the manufacturer to pick up the
pieces if/when I screw up!

A warranty repair/replace costs *more* than the original product
cost (the manufacturer). They don't want to be fixing things
that *you* may have broken -- or, that you may have *changed*
the failure mode through your unfamiliarity with the device.

["Yeah, that's failure type XYZ001 -- replace module 23, verify
operation and ship it back to the customer" suddenly becomes
"Cripes! Who was poking around in here? Nothing is where it
should be! Just scrap the entire item..."]

Me fooling with it was not going to make it worse.
In fact, cleaning it bought them a few months and a few extra payments
into the maintenance kitty. I really won't be making money on that
maintenance plan until lightning blows up both of my sat boxes.



My daughter used to work for Dish Network as a tech. Some of the calls
she describes to me are hysterical.

"Ma'am, is the receiver plugged in?"

"uh, what's a plug?"

"You know that chord on the back of the receiver that goes into the wall
to get power?"

"yeah. Is that the plug?"

"Yes, Ma'am."

....

"My satellite isn't working!! I can't get anything on the TV!"

"Is your TV turned on?"

"No. The power's been out for a couple of hours now."

....

Those were REAL discussions she had with a couple of customers.

It's not that people are "stupid". But, most aren't analytical
thinkers. They don't have the mindset, skillset or inclination
to sit down and sort out the exact nature of a problem.

Now, they're in a frustrating situation (whatever isn't working
for some reason) *and* you want them to be calm and logical in
thinking about the source of their frustration?? :

This is one of the main reasons why brand new (obviously working!)
items are returned for refunds: the user is unnecessarily intimidated
by a device that doesn't work the way he *hopes* it will work!

I get frustrated when vendors/manufacturers assume *all* users are
inept and reduce a "problem" to a bogus error code (analogous to
an idiot light!). Why not indicate what you were *trying* to do
and what UNEXPECTED condition was detected? That way, instead of
conveying an error code to a support person -- and waiting for them
to look it up in The Big Book of Error Codes -- I can possibly
check some of the things that YOUR message *suggests* -- either
explicitly in the text of the message or *implicitly* as I ponder
what the message might mean?!

But, wouldn't you at least expect the average user to know what a
plug/power chord is?

I had a recent piece of software crash miserably during installation
simply because a network cable was not plugged into the network jack
on the computer! The software didn't care if the network was
accessible -- just that the network *interface* was "up"! Had
the error message included the characters "n e t w o r k" in it
ANYWHERE, I would have explored this option immediately! :-/
Instead, I look at the software as "of poor quality".


A long time ago there were some issues with a particular public database
list was crashing. No one could figure out why it was doing that, so one
day I had some time on my hands and thought I'd give it a try and see if
I could figure it out. It turns out that the back end of the DB list
had a flaw. When a new list title was created with a particular symbol
that was actually invisible when created, that symbol would crash the
list. It could only be seen from looking at the list from the back end,
not the public view. If that new list item was deleted from the DB, the
list could then be refreshed and returned to normal working view.

Some people thought it was funny to crash the list, but no one tried to
fix it because they thought it was some big mystery. I'm not even a
major techie when it comes to stuff like that, but I like to analyze and
solve problems. Kind of even surprised myself when I fixed the issue.
Then I passed on the solution to the others who needed to know.

I guess I think it's not so hard to do that sort of stuff, but then
again being analytical is kind of normal for me. Many people just
aren't analytical.

--
Maggie

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 20:44:05 -0700, Don Y
wrote:



What I miss are good *butchers* (I loved Schmeisser's in Niles)
and Italian deli's and restaurants (Beantown and NYC for those).
And, a *good* bagel (haven't had one of those in decades!)

Schmeisser's is about a mile and a half from me, but I haven't shopped
there.

On 9/22/2015 11:19 PM, Vic Smith wrote:

But I what I REALLY miss the most is good bakery items.
There's just no substitute for the Swedish and German bakeries
that used to be all over the place in the Chicago area.
Dunkin Donuts played a hand in their demise.
That's my personal view, of course.



The only decent bakery for rye bread in 150 miles recently closed.
Millions of people think Dunkin Donuts are good. They never had a
really good pastry. Very few good bakeries around any more.

On 9/22/2015 11:44 PM, Don Y wrote:

I do most of my own baking -- and most of the things that I make
aren't typically found in commercial bakeries (too "ethnic").
This, of course, is a self-limiting process -- there's only so
much you can bake before getting tired of it! (Biscotti last night;
raisin bread this coming weekend)


Where to you live? I've not had a really good raisin bread for 30
years. I'll be at your front door with a stick of butter when you open
the oven.

On 9/22/2015 8:47 PM, Muggles wrote:
But, wouldn't you at least expect the average user to know what a
plug/power chord is?

My neighbor's mom had some car problems. She brought the car over to the
neighbor's house. Neighbor went out to take a peek: "Mom, how do you
open the hood?" "Gee, I don't know! When I take it to the gas station,
the guy just does THIS (puts arms out at her sides like a priest
inviting his congregation to pray) and *poof*, it opens!"

I had a recent piece of software crash miserably during installation
simply because a network cable was not plugged into the network jack
on the computer! The software didn't care if the network was
accessible -- just that the network *interface* was "up"! Had
the error message included the characters "n e t w o r k" in it
ANYWHERE, I would have explored this option immediately! :-/
Instead, I look at the software as "of poor quality".

A long time ago there were some issues with a particular public database
list was crashing. No one could figure out why it was doing that, so one
day I had some time on my hands and thought I'd give it a try and see if
I could figure it out. It turns out that the back end of the DB list
had a flaw. When a new list title was created with a particular symbol
that was actually invisible when created, that symbol would crash the
list. It could only be seen from looking at the list from the back end,
not the public view. If that new list item was deleted from the DB, the
list could then be refreshed and returned to normal working view.

There are lots of cases of software not properly handling "unexpected"
input. Business wants to lower the quality of individuals they "need"
for any given task. Just like McDonald's has a cash register that
features *pictures* of the food items (so the operators don't have to
THINK about what they are doing -- 5 hamburgers? Just press teh hamburger
button 5 times!), software is moving towards a "black box" implementation
style.

Which is fine. *If* the black boxes are well defined and folks
completely understand how they operate. If, OTOH, they just "kinda"
know what the box is supposed to do (and imagine that it does all
the "other stuff" exactly the way they happen to NEED it to be done,
at this point in time), then you're in for a rude awakening when it
craps out.

Just because you happen to think A then B then C then D doesn't mean
the real world (or real users!) will comply with that expected behavior!

Some people thought it was funny to crash the list, but no one tried to

In school, damn near every course had its own "custom" computer system
(this predates the PC). Each professor had his own idea how a computer
system should work, etc.

The system for one of my classes had two disk drives (volumes): 0 and 1
(sort of like C: and D. If you asked the system to show you the
contents of disk *2*, it died.

But, back then, we were using dot matrix printing terminals (DECwriters).
So, it took a while for everything the computer had "sent" to your terminal
to actually get printed. There were ~30-40 of these attached to the computer
all residing in the "lab" where we did our homework.

The favorite trick was to finish YOUR homework assignment in the wee hours
of the morning (when all the "staff" was home, asleep) and then list disk 2
and calmly walk out of the room -- listening to the printers stopping,
one by one, as you walked down the hall. Then, the groans from the
remaining students who knew they could not finish their homework by
morning (machine is dead until someone comes in to reboot it!)

fix it because they thought it was some big mystery. I'm not even a
major techie when it comes to stuff like that, but I like to analyze and
solve problems. Kind of even surprised myself when I fixed the issue.
Then I passed on the solution to the others who needed to know.

I guess I think it's not so hard to do that sort of stuff, but then
again being analytical is kind of normal for me. Many people just
aren't analytical.

Exactly. Many people want to be told "the answer". And, if not spoon
fed that answer, just sit in "pause" mode waiting for it!

On 9/22/2015 9:45 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/22/2015 11:44 PM, Don Y wrote:

I do most of my own baking -- and most of the things that I make
aren't typically found in commercial bakeries (too "ethnic").
This, of course, is a self-limiting process -- there's only so
much you can bake before getting tired of it! (Biscotti last night;
raisin bread this coming weekend)

Where to you live? I've not had a really good raisin bread for 30 years. I'll
be at your front door with a stick of butter when you open the oven.

heh heh heh... Desert Southwest. Mine is a very *heavy* yeast bread.
Almost tastes like a dense cake -- with a sh*tload of (yellow) raisins
mixed in. I make about 15 pounds of dough and make ~2 pound loaves.

Unfortunately, the loaves don't freeze well (mushy). And, as no
preservatives, they don't last more than 2-3 days before getting
"crusty/stale". So, I bake them, eat *one* as soon as it comes out
of the oven, save one for myself and give the others to neighbors
with ORDERS to "eat in the next 2-3 days".

On 9/22/2015 9:23 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 20:44:05 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

What I miss are good *butchers* (I loved Schmeisser's in Niles)
and Italian deli's and restaurants (Beantown and NYC for those).
And, a *good* bagel (haven't had one of those in decades!)

Schmeisser's is about a mile and a half from me, but I haven't shopped
there.

They were pretty pricey. But, had good cuts of meat and were
excellent at preparing cuts to order.

[I'd lived in Palastine, Scrumburg, Mortgage Grove, Hangover Park
in the past. Here, its hard to find many "ethnic" foods (besides
mexican)]

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 22:15:15 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 9/22/2015 9:23 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 20:44:05 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

What I miss are good *butchers* (I loved Schmeisser's in Niles)
and Italian deli's and restaurants (Beantown and NYC for those).
And, a *good* bagel (haven't had one of those in decades!)

Schmeisser's is about a mile and a half from me, but I haven't shopped
there.

They were pretty pricey. But, had good cuts of meat and were
excellent at preparing cuts to order.

[I'd lived in Palastine, Scrumburg, Mortgage Grove, Hangover Park
in the past. Here, its hard to find many "ethnic" foods (besides
mexican)]


Moved to Morton Grove (from Chicago) 18 years ago. Plenty of ethnic
around here. I forgot what white bread is. Only eat rye.

On 9/22/2015 10:35 PM, Vic Smith wrote:

Moved to Morton Grove (from Chicago) 18 years ago. Plenty of ethnic
around here. I forgot what white bread is. Only eat rye.

Ha! I lived on Beckwith for a bit -- odd little house, busy street.
But, wasn't there, long. Miss catching the Ryan into the city for pizza.
Another thing that we don't have here! :

[A friend came to town one day for a LONG layover -- like 10 hours.
Picked him up at the airport and drove to Lou Malnati's for a pie.
Then, from there, to Gino's East. Then, Bacino's (?). Then
My Pi (or someother). Finally, one last stop to pick up a pie
for him to take on the plane on the continuation of his flight.
Fun -- and FILLING! -- day.]