If you have the service agreement, never admit you tried to fix
anything. I had two flaky remotes and I tried to fix one of them by
cleaning the board and pads.

Bear in mind these are not returnable items. They send you a new one
and you throw the old one away.

When I called for a replacement they said the coverage was void
because I took it apart.
I said "so if I just threw it in the trash it would be OK"
"No then it is lost and we do not cover loss"
"But when I get the new one, I just throw the old one away"
"yes"
"How do you know I messed with it at all"
"you told us"

It just got silly from there.

I said
"OK I also have 2 OTHER bad remotes and I am afraid to touch them"

"OK great, you will have 2 new ones an a couple days"

Moral, no good deed goes unpunished. Never admit you tried to help.

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 14:04:53 -0400, wrote:

If you have the service agreement, never admit you tried to fix
anything. I had two flaky remotes and I tried to fix one of them by
cleaning the board and pads.

Bear in mind these are not returnable items. They send you a new one
and you throw the old one away.

When I called for a replacement they said the coverage was void
because I took it apart.
I said "so if I just threw it in the trash it would be OK"
"No then it is lost and we do not cover loss"
"But when I get the new one, I just throw the old one away"
"yes"
"How do you know I messed with it at all"
"you told us"

It just got silly from there.

I said
"OK I also have 2 OTHER bad remotes and I am afraid to touch them"

"OK great, you will have 2 new ones an a couple days"

Moral, no good deed goes unpunished. Never admit you tried to help.

The worse thing you can do is admit to stealing the Lindbergh baby.

Nobody will believe you.

On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 2:05:16 PM UTC-4, wrote:
If you have the service agreement, never admit you tried to fix
anything. I had two flaky remotes and I tried to fix one of them by
cleaning the board and pads.

Bear in mind these are not returnable items. They send you a new one
and you throw the old one away.

When I called for a replacement they said the coverage was void
because I took it apart.
I said "so if I just threw it in the trash it would be OK"
"No then it is lost and we do not cover loss"
"But when I get the new one, I just throw the old one away"
"yes"
"How do you know I messed with it at all"
"you told us"

It just got silly from there.

I said
"OK I also have 2 OTHER bad remotes and I am afraid to touch them"

"OK great, you will have 2 new ones an a couple days"

Moral, no good deed goes unpunished. Never admit you tried to help.

I assume the other two are actually good, so the problem is solved?
If not, I guess you can wait awhile, then claim you have another bad
one. Amazing that they have that absurd position, good way to lose
customers over a cheap remote.

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 11:38:36 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 2:05:16 PM UTC-4, wrote:
If you have the service agreement, never admit you tried to fix
anything. I had two flaky remotes and I tried to fix one of them by
cleaning the board and pads.

Bear in mind these are not returnable items. They send you a new one
and you throw the old one away.

When I called for a replacement they said the coverage was void
because I took it apart.
I said "so if I just threw it in the trash it would be OK"
"No then it is lost and we do not cover loss"
"But when I get the new one, I just throw the old one away"
"yes"
"How do you know I messed with it at all"
"you told us"

It just got silly from there.

I said
"OK I also have 2 OTHER bad remotes and I am afraid to touch them"

"OK great, you will have 2 new ones an a couple days"

Moral, no good deed goes unpunished. Never admit you tried to help.

I assume the other two are actually good, so the problem is solved?
If not, I guess you can wait awhile, then claim you have another bad
one. Amazing that they have that absurd position, good way to lose
customers over a cheap remote.

I really could not believe it, after this stupid thread continued with
the supervisor on line.
I assume they are all script monkeys there and nobody has the power to
think.
This guy kept playing the game after I said we were talking about two
OTHER remotes. He was about to run the whole trouble shooting script
when I just gave him all the answers before he could get past "replace
the batteries".
It ended with a simple "what address do we send the remotes to."

If I had not said I actually tried to fix them before I wanted new
ones they would have simply sent me new ones.

Remember these are not supposed to be returned. They would not know if
it had a bullet hole in it. (I wasn't that mad at them anyway) ;-)

On 9/22/2015 11:04 AM, wrote:
If you have the service agreement, never admit you tried to fix
anything. I had two flaky remotes and I tried to fix one of them by
cleaning the board and pads.

Bear in mind these are not returnable items. They send you a new one
and you throw the old one away.

When I called for a replacement they said the coverage was void
because I took it apart.
I said "so if I just threw it in the trash it would be OK"
"No then it is lost and we do not cover loss"
"But when I get the new one, I just throw the old one away"
"yes"
"How do you know I messed with it at all"
"you told us"

It just got silly from there.

I said
"OK I also have 2 OTHER bad remotes and I am afraid to touch them"

"OK great, you will have 2 new ones an a couple days"

Moral, no good deed goes unpunished. Never admit you tried to help.

From their point of view, how do they know you were qualified to diagnose
the piece of equipment (it could just as easily have been the DISH
tuner box with which you were tinkering!) was, in fact, 'defective'?
And, that you are even remotely qualified to disassemble (without breaking),
repair *and* reassemble it?

Given that they have to come up with a policy that addresses customers
who may well be ROCKET SCIENTISTS as well as COMPLETE IDIOTS, it seems
like the only logical choice is the one they made.

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 11:43:00 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 9/22/2015 11:04 AM, wrote:
If you have the service agreement, never admit you tried to fix
anything. I had two flaky remotes and I tried to fix one of them by
cleaning the board and pads.

Bear in mind these are not returnable items. They send you a new one
and you throw the old one away.

When I called for a replacement they said the coverage was void
because I took it apart.
I said "so if I just threw it in the trash it would be OK"
"No then it is lost and we do not cover loss"
"But when I get the new one, I just throw the old one away"
"yes"
"How do you know I messed with it at all"
"you told us"

It just got silly from there.

I said
"OK I also have 2 OTHER bad remotes and I am afraid to touch them"

"OK great, you will have 2 new ones an a couple days"

Moral, no good deed goes unpunished. Never admit you tried to help.

From their point of view, how do they know you were qualified to diagnose
the piece of equipment (it could just as easily have been the DISH
tuner box with which you were tinkering!) was, in fact, 'defective'?
And, that you are even remotely qualified to disassemble (without breaking),
repair *and* reassemble it?

Given that they have to come up with a policy that addresses customers
who may well be ROCKET SCIENTISTS as well as COMPLETE IDIOTS, it seems
like the only logical choice is the one they made.


So what, they simply send you another one anyway. It was already
broke! Me fooling with it was not going to make it worse.
In fact, cleaning it bought them a few months and a few extra payments
into the maintenance kitty. I really won't be making money on that
maintenance plan until lightning blows up both of my sat boxes.

On 9/22/2015 1:09 PM, wrote:
From their point of view, how do they know you were qualified to diagnose
the piece of equipment (it could just as easily have been the DISH
tuner box with which you were tinkering!) was, in fact, 'defective'?
And, that you are even remotely qualified to disassemble (without breaking),
repair *and* reassemble it?

Given that they have to come up with a policy that addresses customers
who may well be ROCKET SCIENTISTS as well as COMPLETE IDIOTS, it seems
like the only logical choice is the one they made.

So what, they simply send you another one anyway. It was already
broke!

They don't *know* that it was broke. The *receiver* could have been
broke. The batteries could have been dead; you may have installed
replacement batteries *backwards*, etc. All they know is the
remote function *appeared* not to work -- ACCORDING TO YOU!

Do you know how many items are returned as "broken" that, in fact,
are NOT broken? I.e., consumers are not good diagnosticians.
How do they know *your* capabilities? They mail you another remote
and your problem may or may NOT go away.

OTOH, you tinkering with their equipment leaves them at *your* mercy.

I design electronic products. I repair most electronic products
that I purchase. That doesn't mean I don't make mistakes when
performing those diagnostics/repairs. The difference is, I do
those repairs when I no longer have the recourse of a warranty
to exploit. I.e., it's broken; I MAY be able to fix it -- or,
I may break it *more*! But, *I* am assuming the risk for my
actions -- not expecting the manufacturer to pick up the
pieces if/when I screw up!

A warranty repair/replace costs *more* than the original product
cost (the manufacturer). They don't want to be fixing things
that *you* may have broken -- or, that you may have *changed*
the failure mode through your unfamiliarity with the device.

["Yeah, that's failure type XYZ001 -- replace module 23, verify
operation and ship it back to the customer" suddenly becomes
"Cripes! Who was poking around in here? Nothing is where it
should be! Just scrap the entire item..."]

Me fooling with it was not going to make it worse.
In fact, cleaning it bought them a few months and a few extra payments
into the maintenance kitty. I really won't be making money on that
maintenance plan until lightning blows up both of my sat boxes.

On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 3:34:43 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 9/22/2015 1:09 PM, wrote:
From their point of view, how do they know you were qualified to diagnose
the piece of equipment (it could just as easily have been the DISH
tuner box with which you were tinkering!) was, in fact, 'defective'?
And, that you are even remotely qualified to disassemble (without breaking),
repair *and* reassemble it?

Given that they have to come up with a policy that addresses customers
who may well be ROCKET SCIENTISTS as well as COMPLETE IDIOTS, it seems
like the only logical choice is the one they made.

So what, they simply send you another one anyway. It was already
broke!

They don't *know* that it was broke. The *receiver* could have been
broke. The batteries could have been dead; you may have installed
replacement batteries *backwards*, etc. All they know is the
remote function *appeared* not to work -- ACCORDING TO YOU!

Do you know how many items are returned as "broken" that, in fact,
are NOT broken? I.e., consumers are not good diagnosticians.
How do they know *your* capabilities? They mail you another remote
and your problem may or may NOT go away.

OTOH, you tinkering with their equipment leaves them at *your* mercy.

I design electronic products. I repair most electronic products
that I purchase. That doesn't mean I don't make mistakes when
performing those diagnostics/repairs. The difference is, I do
those repairs when I no longer have the recourse of a warranty
to exploit. I.e., it's broken; I MAY be able to fix it -- or,
I may break it *more*! But, *I* am assuming the risk for my
actions -- not expecting the manufacturer to pick up the
pieces if/when I screw up!

A warranty repair/replace costs *more* than the original product
cost (the manufacturer). They don't want to be fixing things
that *you* may have broken -- or, that you may have *changed*
the failure mode through your unfamiliarity with the device.

["Yeah, that's failure type XYZ001 -- replace module 23, verify
operation and ship it back to the customer" suddenly becomes
"Cripes! Who was poking around in here? Nothing is where it
should be! Just scrap the entire item..."]

Me fooling with it was not going to make it worse.
In fact, cleaning it bought them a few months and a few extra payments
into the maintenance kitty. I really won't be making money on that
maintenance plan until lightning blows up both of my sat boxes.

When you design a product, does a production engineer get hold of it and spec the least expensive parts that will make the product work or do you have control of how the item is produced? I've seen bean counters ruin some perfectly good equipment. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Bean Monster

On 9/22/2015 1:44 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
When you design a product, does a production engineer get hold of it and
spec the least expensive parts that will make the product work or do you
have control of how the item is produced? I've seen bean counters ruin some
perfectly good equipment. o_O

I design to a formal specification. That includes cost (to
manufacture)/pricing (to sell) targets -- which also have to reflect the
cost of in-warranty repairs (I can't factor in the "cost of good-will -- when
a defect or poor performance costs you a customer).

So, no one tends to touch a design other to choose between "equivalent"
components that I specify/qualify in the Bill of Materials, etc.

One place I worked at, some "buyer" took it upon himself to buy a
metric buttload of a particular component "at a great price". The
cost to *rework* all of the machines built with those components
was astronomical! It became a sort of inside joke to spring on
the purchasing folks any time they started "getting creative":
"When *you're* the engineer, then *you* can decide what parts
get purchased. Just like *I* can't decide which distributor
*you* will choose to place the order with! Even if one disti
was particularly helpful to me in selecting the components
at design time."

Uncle Monster wrote:
On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 3:34:43 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 9/22/2015 1:09 PM, wrote:
From their point of view, how do they know you were qualified to diagnose
the piece of equipment (it could just as easily have been the DISH
tuner box with which you were tinkering!) was, in fact, 'defective'?
And, that you are even remotely qualified to disassemble (without breaking),
repair *and* reassemble it?

Given that they have to come up with a policy that addresses customers
who may well be ROCKET SCIENTISTS as well as COMPLETE IDIOTS, it seems
like the only logical choice is the one they made.

So what, they simply send you another one anyway. It was already
broke!

They don't *know* that it was broke. The *receiver* could have been
broke. The batteries could have been dead; you may have installed
replacement batteries *backwards*, etc. All they know is the
remote function *appeared* not to work -- ACCORDING TO YOU!

Do you know how many items are returned as "broken" that, in fact,
are NOT broken? I.e., consumers are not good diagnosticians.
How do they know *your* capabilities? They mail you another remote
and your problem may or may NOT go away.

OTOH, you tinkering with their equipment leaves them at *your* mercy.

I design electronic products. I repair most electronic products
that I purchase. That doesn't mean I don't make mistakes when
performing those diagnostics/repairs. The difference is, I do
those repairs when I no longer have the recourse of a warranty
to exploit. I.e., it's broken; I MAY be able to fix it -- or,
I may break it *more*! But, *I* am assuming the risk for my
actions -- not expecting the manufacturer to pick up the
pieces if/when I screw up!

A warranty repair/replace costs *more* than the original product
cost (the manufacturer). They don't want to be fixing things
that *you* may have broken -- or, that you may have *changed*
the failure mode through your unfamiliarity with the device.

["Yeah, that's failure type XYZ001 -- replace module 23, verify
operation and ship it back to the customer" suddenly becomes
"Cripes! Who was poking around in here? Nothing is where it
should be! Just scrap the entire item..."]

Me fooling with it was not going to make it worse.
In fact, cleaning it bought them a few months and a few extra payments
into the maintenance kitty. I really won't be making money on that
maintenance plan until lightning blows up both of my sat boxes.

When you design a product, does a production engineer get hold of it and spec the least expensive parts that will make the product work or do you have control of how the item is produced? I've seen bean counters ruin some perfectly good equipment. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Bean Monster

Bean counters are making decisions, not engineers.
Some times bean counters demise good product and
it's manufacturer into ground. Way back Chrysler was
an example. When accountant became a CEO, company started
going down hill. He was deaf to engineers no matter what.

On 9/22/2015 3:35 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/22/2015 1:09 PM, wrote:
From their point of view, how do they know you were qualified to
diagnose
the piece of equipment (it could just as easily have been the DISH
tuner box with which you were tinkering!) was, in fact, 'defective'?
And, that you are even remotely qualified to disassemble (without
breaking),
repair *and* reassemble it?

Given that they have to come up with a policy that addresses customers
who may well be ROCKET SCIENTISTS as well as COMPLETE IDIOTS, it seems
like the only logical choice is the one they made.

So what, they simply send you another one anyway. It was already
broke!

They don't *know* that it was broke. The *receiver* could have been
broke. The batteries could have been dead; you may have installed
replacement batteries *backwards*, etc. All they know is the
remote function *appeared* not to work -- ACCORDING TO YOU!

Do you know how many items are returned as "broken" that, in fact,
are NOT broken? I.e., consumers are not good diagnosticians.
How do they know *your* capabilities? They mail you another remote
and your problem may or may NOT go away.

OTOH, you tinkering with their equipment leaves them at *your* mercy.

I design electronic products. I repair most electronic products
that I purchase. That doesn't mean I don't make mistakes when
performing those diagnostics/repairs. The difference is, I do
those repairs when I no longer have the recourse of a warranty
to exploit. I.e., it's broken; I MAY be able to fix it -- or,
I may break it *more*! But, *I* am assuming the risk for my
actions -- not expecting the manufacturer to pick up the
pieces if/when I screw up!

A warranty repair/replace costs *more* than the original product
cost (the manufacturer). They don't want to be fixing things
that *you* may have broken -- or, that you may have *changed*
the failure mode through your unfamiliarity with the device.

["Yeah, that's failure type XYZ001 -- replace module 23, verify
operation and ship it back to the customer" suddenly becomes
"Cripes! Who was poking around in here? Nothing is where it
should be! Just scrap the entire item..."]

Me fooling with it was not going to make it worse.
In fact, cleaning it bought them a few months and a few extra payments
into the maintenance kitty. I really won't be making money on that
maintenance plan until lightning blows up both of my sat boxes.



My daughter used to work for Dish Network as a tech. Some of the calls
she describes to me are hysterical.

"Ma'am, is the receiver plugged in?"

"uh, what's a plug?"

"You know that chord on the back of the receiver that goes into the wall
to get power?"

"yeah. Is that the plug?"

"Yes, Ma'am."

....

"My satellite isn't working!! I can't get anything on the TV!"

"Is your TV turned on?"

"No. The power's been out for a couple of hours now."

....

Those were REAL discussions she had with a couple of customers.

--
Maggie

On 9/22/2015 3:04 PM, Muggles wrote:
On 9/22/2015 3:35 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/22/2015 1:09 PM, wrote:
From their point of view, how do they know you were qualified to
diagnose
the piece of equipment (it could just as easily have been the DISH
tuner box with which you were tinkering!) was, in fact, 'defective'?
And, that you are even remotely qualified to disassemble (without
breaking),
repair *and* reassemble it?

Given that they have to come up with a policy that addresses customers
who may well be ROCKET SCIENTISTS as well as COMPLETE IDIOTS, it seems
like the only logical choice is the one they made.

So what, they simply send you another one anyway. It was already
broke!

They don't *know* that it was broke. The *receiver* could have been
broke. The batteries could have been dead; you may have installed
replacement batteries *backwards*, etc. All they know is the
remote function *appeared* not to work -- ACCORDING TO YOU!

Do you know how many items are returned as "broken" that, in fact,
are NOT broken? I.e., consumers are not good diagnosticians.
How do they know *your* capabilities? They mail you another remote
and your problem may or may NOT go away.

OTOH, you tinkering with their equipment leaves them at *your* mercy.

I design electronic products. I repair most electronic products
that I purchase. That doesn't mean I don't make mistakes when
performing those diagnostics/repairs. The difference is, I do
those repairs when I no longer have the recourse of a warranty
to exploit. I.e., it's broken; I MAY be able to fix it -- or,
I may break it *more*! But, *I* am assuming the risk for my
actions -- not expecting the manufacturer to pick up the
pieces if/when I screw up!

A warranty repair/replace costs *more* than the original product
cost (the manufacturer). They don't want to be fixing things
that *you* may have broken -- or, that you may have *changed*
the failure mode through your unfamiliarity with the device.

["Yeah, that's failure type XYZ001 -- replace module 23, verify
operation and ship it back to the customer" suddenly becomes
"Cripes! Who was poking around in here? Nothing is where it
should be! Just scrap the entire item..."]

Me fooling with it was not going to make it worse.
In fact, cleaning it bought them a few months and a few extra payments
into the maintenance kitty. I really won't be making money on that
maintenance plan until lightning blows up both of my sat boxes.



My daughter used to work for Dish Network as a tech. Some of the calls
she describes to me are hysterical.

"Ma'am, is the receiver plugged in?"

"uh, what's a plug?"

"You know that chord on the back of the receiver that goes into the wall
to get power?"

"yeah. Is that the plug?"

"Yes, Ma'am."

....

"My satellite isn't working!! I can't get anything on the TV!"

"Is your TV turned on?"

"No. The power's been out for a couple of hours now."

....

Those were REAL discussions she had with a couple of customers.

It's not that people are "stupid". But, most aren't analytical
thinkers. They don't have the mindset, skillset or inclination
to sit down and sort out the exact nature of a problem.

Now, they're in a frustrating situation (whatever isn't working
for some reason) *and* you want them to be calm and logical in
thinking about the source of their frustration?? :

This is one of the main reasons why brand new (obviously working!)
items are returned for refunds: the user is unnecessarily intimidated
by a device that doesn't work the way he *hopes* it will work!

I get frustrated when vendors/manufacturers assume *all* users are
inept and reduce a "problem" to a bogus error code (analogous to
an idiot light!). Why not indicate what you were *trying* to do
and what UNEXPECTED condition was detected? That way, instead of
conveying an error code to a support person -- and waiting for them
to look it up in The Big Book of Error Codes -- I can possibly
check some of the things that YOUR message *suggests* -- either
explicitly in the text of the message or *implicitly* as I ponder
what the message might mean?!

I had a recent piece of software crash miserably during installation
simply because a network cable was not plugged into the network jack
on the computer! The software didn't care if the network was
accessible -- just that the network *interface* was "up"! Had
the error message included the characters "n e t w o r k" in it
ANYWHERE, I would have explored this option immediately! :-/
Instead, I look at the software as "of poor quality".

"Don Y" wrote in message
...

They don't *know* that it was broke. The *receiver* could have been
broke. The batteries could have been dead; you may have installed
replacement batteries *backwards*, etc. All they know is the
remote function *appeared* not to work -- ACCORDING TO YOU!

Do you know how many items are returned as "broken" that, in fact,
are NOT broken? I.e., consumers are not good diagnosticians.
How do they know *your* capabilities? They mail you another remote
and your problem may or may NOT go away.


I can agree with that . I worked in a very large plant making polyester.
Worked as a trouble shooter for part of the time.
Got a call one night the machine would not start. Went out and the fellow
said it would not start and he was pressing the RED button (which is the
stop button) and said 'see, it won't start'. Said to him' look you big dumb
ass try the GREEN button'.
I could tell lots of stories like that if I had the time.

About once a year the cable TV went out. First time I found out it blew a
fuse somewhere down the line from my house. Called them about 6 or 8 times
for the same problem over the years and still let them go through their
scrip but as I had already tried things, just answered them. Then they send
out the 'inside man' to check the house. He calls the 'out side man' to go
and check where the fuse is.
After the second time I tried to tell the phone person to send the 'outside'
man but they never do, so quit trying to tell them anything.

On 9/22/2015 3:09 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Don Y" wrote in message
...

They don't *know* that it was broke. The *receiver* could have been
broke. The batteries could have been dead; you may have installed
replacement batteries *backwards*, etc. All they know is the
remote function *appeared* not to work -- ACCORDING TO YOU!

Do you know how many items are returned as "broken" that, in fact,
are NOT broken? I.e., consumers are not good diagnosticians.
How do they know *your* capabilities? They mail you another remote
and your problem may or may NOT go away.

I can agree with that . I worked in a very large plant making polyester.
Worked as a trouble shooter for part of the time.
Got a call one night the machine would not start. Went out and the fellow
said it would not start and he was pressing the RED button (which is the
stop button) and said 'see, it won't start'. Said to him' look you big dumb
ass try the GREEN button'.
I could tell lots of stories like that if I had the time.

About once a year the cable TV went out. First time I found out it blew a
fuse somewhere down the line from my house. Called them about 6 or 8 times
for the same problem over the years and still let them go through their
scrip but as I had already tried things, just answered them. Then they send
out the 'inside man' to check the house. He calls the 'out side man' to go
and check where the fuse is.
After the second time I tried to tell the phone person to send the 'outside'
man but they never do, so quit trying to tell them anything.

The same problem also exists in reverse -- "technicians" thinking the
customer/user is an idiot and NOT taking him/her for granted.

When we had DSL, I was encountering lots of "line noise" problems
(cables are all below grade, here, so water infiltration often compromises
a cable). Technician came out to test the line. Chatted with him
for a bit while he was setting up, etc. So, he had some idea as to
my technical abilities.

After running a battery of tests, he shook his head and said, "Looks good",
and was getting ready to pack up and leave ("No fault found"). I asked
him to humor me. As we were having a good discussion, he opted to do so.
Some 4 or 5 minutes later, the noise floor shot up tremendously! He
clipped his handset to the pair and could barely make out the *dial* tone!

"Yikes! Looks like you've got a problem, here!"

I've learned with any "professional" who shows up to do some repair that
it is in my best interest to engage them in conversation so they understand
the quality of my comments and don't rush to dismiss them (on the work
order they've been given) as they might for one of my neighbors. Having
to call them *back* isn't a win for *anyone*!

I detected a slight natural gas odor (rotten eggs) after a plumber had
done some work on the gas line, here. He double checked it (soapy
water test) and dismissed it as a figment of my imagination.

I borrowed a portable mass spectrometer from a friend who was the
Safety Officer at a local hospital. With this as a "sniffer", went
in search of the leak.

Called the plumber *back* (after having returned the instrument) and
pointed him at the *exact* location that I had isolated. Again,
the soapy water comes out. But, this time, he's far more patient
and sits for a good 5 minutes watching for bubbles.

"Wow! That's such a *tiny* leak! How the hell could you smell
that with your nose??"

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 13:35:03 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

So what, they simply send you another one anyway. It was already
broke!

They don't *know* that it was broke. The *receiver* could have been
broke. The batteries could have been dead; you may have installed
replacement batteries *backwards*, etc. All they know is the
remote function *appeared* not to work -- ACCORDING TO YOU!

Do you know how many items are returned as "broken" that, in fact,
are NOT broken? I.e., consumers are not good diagnosticians.
How do they know *your* capabilities? They mail you another remote
and your problem may or may NOT go away.

OTOH, you tinkering with their equipment leaves them at *your* mercy.

I design electronic products. I repair most electronic products
that I purchase. That doesn't mean I don't make mistakes when
performing those diagnostics/repairs. The difference is, I do
those repairs when I no longer have the recourse of a warranty
to exploit. I.e., it's broken; I MAY be able to fix it -- or,
I may break it *more*! But, *I* am assuming the risk for my
actions -- not expecting the manufacturer to pick up the
pieces if/when I screw up!

A warranty repair/replace costs *more* than the original product
cost (the manufacturer). They don't want to be fixing things
that *you* may have broken -- or, that you may have *changed*
the failure mode through your unfamiliarity with the device.

["Yeah, that's failure type XYZ001 -- replace module 23, verify
operation and ship it back to the customer" suddenly becomes
"Cripes! Who was poking around in here? Nothing is where it
should be! Just scrap the entire item..."]

What part of "this is not a returnable item" are you having trouble
with?
The "know" it is bad because I tell them so. That is all they have.

Since the problem was that a couple of buttons did not work without
really pressing them hard, your battery comment is simply chaff in the
conversation.

I am sending these people $8 a month for a maintenance agreement and
if they have to send me a new $5 remote (a generous price for a
chinese product) every now and then, so be it.

BTW I was field support for IBM for 30 years, about half of it as
region support on a number of products, working on things a lot more
complex than a remote control. I don't need you or anyone else
questioning my opinion of what was wrong with this. Opening it up and
cleaning the pads had already spared them sending me one 6 months ago.

I am just pointing out, a painless replacement is if you just say "the
mother ****er broke".
Then it will be, "OK then we will send you a new one".

Anything else is not a wise choice.

On 9/22/2015 3:22 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 13:35:03 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

So what, they simply send you another one anyway. It was already
broke!

They don't *know* that it was broke. The *receiver* could have been
broke. The batteries could have been dead; you may have installed
replacement batteries *backwards*, etc. All they know is the
remote function *appeared* not to work -- ACCORDING TO YOU!

Do you know how many items are returned as "broken" that, in fact,
are NOT broken? I.e., consumers are not good diagnosticians.
How do they know *your* capabilities? They mail you another remote
and your problem may or may NOT go away.

OTOH, you tinkering with their equipment leaves them at *your* mercy.

I design electronic products. I repair most electronic products
that I purchase. That doesn't mean I don't make mistakes when
performing those diagnostics/repairs. The difference is, I do
those repairs when I no longer have the recourse of a warranty
to exploit. I.e., it's broken; I MAY be able to fix it -- or,
I may break it *more*! But, *I* am assuming the risk for my
actions -- not expecting the manufacturer to pick up the
pieces if/when I screw up!

A warranty repair/replace costs *more* than the original product
cost (the manufacturer). They don't want to be fixing things
that *you* may have broken -- or, that you may have *changed*
the failure mode through your unfamiliarity with the device.

["Yeah, that's failure type XYZ001 -- replace module 23, verify
operation and ship it back to the customer" suddenly becomes
"Cripes! Who was poking around in here? Nothing is where it
should be! Just scrap the entire item..."]

What part of "this is not a returnable item" are you having trouble
with?
The "know" it is bad because I tell them so. That is all they have.

Since the problem was that a couple of buttons did not work without
really pressing them hard, your battery comment is simply chaff in the
conversation.

I am sending these people $8 a month for a maintenance agreement and
if they have to send me a new $5 remote (a generous price for a
chinese product) every now and then, so be it.

BTW I was field support for IBM for 30 years, about half of it as
region support on a number of products, working on things a lot more
complex than a remote control. I don't need you or anyone else
questioning my opinion of what was wrong with this. Opening it up and
cleaning the pads had already spared them sending me one 6 months ago.

With all that experience, you still thought it wise to tell them
"I decided to take matters into my own hands and disassemble the
unit AFTER having read the terms of my service agreement that
expressly forbid warranty coverage for that action"?

Seems like you didn't learn much in those 30 years...

I am just pointing out, a painless replacement is if you just say "the
mother ****er broke".
Then it will be, "OK then we will send you a new one".

Anything else is not a wise choice.

On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 5:23:09 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 13:35:03 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

So what, they simply send you another one anyway. It was already
broke!

They don't *know* that it was broke. The *receiver* could have been
broke. The batteries could have been dead; you may have installed
replacement batteries *backwards*, etc. All they know is the
remote function *appeared* not to work -- ACCORDING TO YOU!

Do you know how many items are returned as "broken" that, in fact,
are NOT broken? I.e., consumers are not good diagnosticians.
How do they know *your* capabilities? They mail you another remote
and your problem may or may NOT go away.

OTOH, you tinkering with their equipment leaves them at *your* mercy.

I design electronic products. I repair most electronic products
that I purchase. That doesn't mean I don't make mistakes when
performing those diagnostics/repairs. The difference is, I do
those repairs when I no longer have the recourse of a warranty
to exploit. I.e., it's broken; I MAY be able to fix it -- or,
I may break it *more*! But, *I* am assuming the risk for my
actions -- not expecting the manufacturer to pick up the
pieces if/when I screw up!

A warranty repair/replace costs *more* than the original product
cost (the manufacturer). They don't want to be fixing things
that *you* may have broken -- or, that you may have *changed*
the failure mode through your unfamiliarity with the device.

["Yeah, that's failure type XYZ001 -- replace module 23, verify
operation and ship it back to the customer" suddenly becomes
"Cripes! Who was poking around in here? Nothing is where it
should be! Just scrap the entire item..."]

What part of "this is not a returnable item" are you having trouble
with?
The "know" it is bad because I tell them so. That is all they have.

Since the problem was that a couple of buttons did not work without
really pressing them hard, your battery comment is simply chaff in the
conversation.

I am sending these people $8 a month for a maintenance agreement and
if they have to send me a new $5 remote (a generous price for a
chinese product) every now and then, so be it.

BTW I was field support for IBM for 30 years, about half of it as
region support on a number of products, working on things a lot more
complex than a remote control. I don't need you or anyone else
questioning my opinion of what was wrong with this. Opening it up and
cleaning the pads had already spared them sending me one 6 months ago.

I am just pointing out, a painless replacement is if you just say "the
mother ****er broke".
Then it will be, "OK then we will send you a new one".

Anything else is not a wise choice.

I remember getting some cards from a remote terminal based on the IBM Selectric that was connected to an IBM 360/50 RAX network on a college campus. The cards had what looked like square LSI modules the size of a large mans thumbnail with aluminum covers on them. It looked to be all custom made parts with IBM printed on them. It was back in the mid 1960's and I thought it was the stuff of SciFi. It was so cool. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Chip Monster

On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 4:34:43 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
On 9/22/2015 1:09 PM, wrote:
From their point of view, how do they know you were qualified to diagnose
the piece of equipment (it could just as easily have been the DISH
tuner box with which you were tinkering!) was, in fact, 'defective'?
And, that you are even remotely qualified to disassemble (without breaking),
repair *and* reassemble it?

Given that they have to come up with a policy that addresses customers
who may well be ROCKET SCIENTISTS as well as COMPLETE IDIOTS, it seems
like the only logical choice is the one they made.

So what, they simply send you another one anyway. It was already
broke!

They don't *know* that it was broke. The *receiver* could have been
broke. The batteries could have been dead; you may have installed
replacement batteries *backwards*, etc. All they know is the
remote function *appeared* not to work -- ACCORDING TO YOU!

Do you know how many items are returned as "broken" that, in fact,
are NOT broken? I.e., consumers are not good diagnosticians.
How do they know *your* capabilities? They mail you another remote
and your problem may or may NOT go away.

OTOH, you tinkering with their equipment leaves them at *your* mercy.

I design electronic products. I repair most electronic products
that I purchase. That doesn't mean I don't make mistakes when
performing those diagnostics/repairs. The difference is, I do
those repairs when I no longer have the recourse of a warranty
to exploit. I.e., it's broken; I MAY be able to fix it -- or,
I may break it *more*! But, *I* am assuming the risk for my
actions -- not expecting the manufacturer to pick up the
pieces if/when I screw up!

A warranty repair/replace costs *more* than the original product
cost (the manufacturer). They don't want to be fixing things
that *you* may have broken -- or, that you may have *changed*
the failure mode through your unfamiliarity with the device.

["Yeah, that's failure type XYZ001 -- replace module 23, verify
operation and ship it back to the customer" suddenly becomes
"Cripes! Who was poking around in here? Nothing is where it
should be! Just scrap the entire item..."]

Me fooling with it was not going to make it worse.
In fact, cleaning it bought them a few months and a few extra payments
into the maintenance kitty. I really won't be making money on that
maintenance plan until lightning blows up both of my sat boxes.

It's a cheap made in China remote that costs them a few bucks and
isn't worth the time they are taking arguing about it and losing a
customer in the process, it's not a DISH receiver or some other
piece of more expensive eqpt.

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 04:42:39 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

It's a cheap made in China remote that costs them a few bucks and
isn't worth the time they are taking arguing about it and losing a
customer in the process, it's not a DISH receiver or some other
piece of more expensive eqpt.

It was simply a room of of script monkeys, following the rules.
I almost understand it until I step back and apply a little logic.
I did think it was funny that when I said, "OK I have two OTHER bad
remotes and I never touched them" that it just sailed through.
If people are not allowed to think, you just have to lower yourself to
their level.
I am sure they are laughing about this in a bar in Bangladesh too,
I don't think the people are stupid, only the rules they operate
under.

Don Y posted for all of us...


consumers are not good diagnosticians.


And neither is their tech support.

--
Tekkie