Don Y posted for all of us...


consumers are not good diagnosticians.


And neither is their tech support.

--
Tekkie

Don Y posted for all of us...


Consumer is a vague term that depends on the sort of customer you
imagine.

If I design a plotter for a fisherman to use on a boat, is he a
consumer? Or, do you consider that "fishing industry"?

Or, what if I design a (marine) autopilot, instead? Does that prevent
someone who owns a *yacht* from purchasing it (because it was
originally designed with a lobsterman in mind)?

If I design a (arcade) game (or gambling device), are the "customers"
the folks who push coins into it? Or, the ones who *operate* it?

If I design a computer peripheral, does it matter who decides to actually
purchase it -- business/consumer?


Who cares? Stop asking questions and provide solutions. A customer is paying
for everything.

So you admit to collusion between you and a distributor when you need help?
So you don't know it all? How many hats and teeshirt from the distributor
you got?

--
Tekkie

Uncle Monster posted for all of us...



On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 6:36:30 PM UTC-5, Tony Hwang wrote:
Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Uncle Monster" wrote in message
...
I would imagine you're not designing commodity consumer products. I like
commercial and industrial equipment but I've always loved aerospace and
military gear because there were no compromises when it came to materials,
workmanship and QC. ^_^


There is no compromises on the money. Not too long ago some substandard
bolts was used. Actualy a company sent in below standard parts marked as
good quality.


And bunch of military helicopters crashed. Coz of substandard bolt
produced in Japan. After that incident all parts arestamped with s/n
and tracked. When I quit DOFD job and came back to commercial world.
I was shocked looking at the things they make and assemble. As simple
as making a solder joint was no good to me(mil-spec. trained and oriented)

I recall a story about a helicopter crash that killed a military parachute team and the reason for the crash was a seized gearbox that caused the rotor to stop. It was clogged lubrication ports to the bearings in a remanufactured gearbox. The oil passages were clogged with crushed walnut hulls that were used in a sandblaster to clean the used gearboxes. It turns out that OSHA had shown up at the plant and ordered that the air pressure be turned
down on the blowguns used to clean the walnut hulls out of the gearboxes. It was a safety concern according to the OSHA wonks. o_O

[8~{} Uncle Clean Monster

That happened in many industries, now one can fart hard than the blow gun.

--
Tekkie

On Friday, September 25, 2015 at 1:52:14 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 9/25/2015 11:12 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:

OMG! Don't want have a stroke fella.

I'm not at all "worked up" over this. Rather, disappointed that the
Conservatives have made themselves meaningless by their extremism. I
want an informed choice -- not two-to-four word catch phrases (Family
Values, Just Say No (to drugs), Compassionate Conservatism, 3-strikes,
etc.).

Someone like Kerry gets up and tries to explain something that is nuanced
(as MOST THINGS IN LIFE ARE) and he's ridiculed for being longwinded. His
service records is besmirched -- yet his opponent was notably *absent* during
the same period (even from his stateside Guard duty!).

It's hard to take this sort of thing as serious, informed dialog.
Rather, just stoking fears and prejudices of some group that you're
hoping will put you over the top. And, if you have to change your
stance next week or next year to court some other group (anyone looked
into Trumps record on these issues??), so be it.

[What will the Right do if all theses folks take the Pope's words
to heart and start pushing for controls on greenhouse emissions?
What constituency will they court, then? Or, will they suddenly
change their stance on global warming? etc. What do they *believe*
in and STAND FOR -- besides their own reelection activities?]

When NOT given a choice, I have two options: don't vote *or* vote
for the folks who appear to have the most "content" in their
discourse. I don't like being forced into such a predictable voting
strategy. And, NOT voting is simply not an option, for me.

[I have *many* conservative beliefs but am forced to compromise them
because the Conservative Alternative is a cartoon. And, seems to be
headed even further into the fringe. Notice the resemblance in
Bozo the Clown and Trump's hairpieces? : ]

You must understand that you should
never take anything I write about human relations seriously. I know that all
politicians are full of excrement and are self serving even The Pope. Yes, I
do believe The Pope is a politician.

Of *course* he is! If he was truly an adherent of his professed faith,
how could he shelter/countenance/not "hand over" the records and staff
under his control for prosecution sex abuses? I guess he's decided
that lip service is all he can afford??

Wash a few feet, kiss a few babies, waive to the crowd and all is forgiven?

[I was raised RC, spent a fair bit of time studying the bible, church
sponsored boy scout troop, religious awards, etc. Then, started listening
to what was being said -- along with preachings of other religions -- before
coming to the rational decision that they were all BS. All just attempts
to control people, resources, etc.]

We have a friend who is devout RC. It is always interesting to see how
she addresses the sex abuse issue when *we* bring it up (she wants to
pretend it doesn't exist). Yet, is intent on leaving her considerable
estate *to* the Church. I have no qualms about tossing barbs her way:
"Maybe they can use *that* to pay off some of the sex abuse claims?
Or, as a cushion for FUTURE/ONGOING abuses??"

[I have no problems with similar "assaults" on the mindless beliefs/dogma
of my leftwing and rightwing friends. "Listen to yourself! Don't you see
the flaws/inconsistencies in your thinking? If its rational, then
PLEASE enlighten me as to how you reconcile these differences -- other
than some arbitrary 'because that's what I think'!"]

I was tortured by nuns as a small boy
so I can pick on The Pope. It's fun to argue with The Left and The Right
because I don't claim allegiance to either since I tend to run along the Z
axis. What me and my brothers say about politics is,"I'm not a Republican,
Republicans disgust me but Democrats are special, they horrify me." Liberals
get so upset when Conservatives use emotion to promote some cause because
Liberals don't know how to do anything else.

How so? Is the climate warming issue some vast Liberal Conspiracy?

Are women's health issues something that some RADICALS are espousing?
(note the "radical islamists" aren't running around promoting
GREATER freedoms! Sort of like the Christian Conservatives, here,
clinging to their notion of Right and imposing it on others as LAW.
But, if likened to Sharia Law, then they shudder -- like my bigotted
neighbor shudders when he's *called* a bigot!)

Are the liberals preventing folks from *worshipping* according
to their own perversions? Are they burning down churches? Arresting
pastors?? Revoking tax exempt statuses?? (i.e., where's this "grand
assault on religion" that I hear so much about?)

Where are all the voter fraud cases? Why not propose a national ID?
Then, use that for *all* things that should be tracked/regulated/licensed
as UNFORGEABLE PROOF (hey, if its a good enough credential for VOTING,
it surely should be good enough to get a passport, buy a gun, register
a car, certify a driver's license, etc.). Or, do we only want to pick
and choose the issues that are important to ONE group to "solve"
(with an imperfect solution).

Of course, this is just from my
own observations spanning more than a half century. I noticed the patterns
even when I was a kid in the 1950's. At the age of 6, I decided that all
grownups were full of crap, they have yet to disappointed me. ^_^

People are inherently insecure and greedy. That greed is usually aimed
at bolstering their sense of security (it may be for non-monetary
things -- power, recognition, publicity, etc.). Keeping people insecure
just fosters more abuses of The System -- whatever System that may be!

When I was a small boy at the Catholic parochial gulag, I suffered a lot of abuse but never anything sexual. Most of the abuse was mental. Hell, Sister Godzilla told me I'd go to hell for looking up a girl's dress. I imagine Catholic families would send the boys who weren't considered to be marriage material off to a seminary, which could be the reason for the trouble with priests and alter boys. My older brother attended a seminary until he decided he didn't want to be a priest when he hit puberty and got interested in girls. He left college to join the Army and wound up doing two tours in Vietnam, the last one as a Green Beret. That was a hell of a switch in career paths. He went over to the dark side and became a lawyer. My older sister went to a convent but got interested in boys and changed her mind about being a nun. The sex drive is very strong in my family and I was already too evil to be consider for the priesthood. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Angelic Monster

On 9/25/2015 1:29 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:

People are inherently insecure and greedy. That greed is usually aimed at
bolstering their sense of security (it may be for non-monetary things --
power, recognition, publicity, etc.). Keeping people insecure just
fosters more abuses of The System -- whatever System that may be!

When I was a small boy at the Catholic parochial gulag, I suffered a lot of
abuse but never anything sexual. Most of the abuse was mental.

I consider imposing your ideas of an unproven "thing" (like *a* god) on
another "helpless" (emotionally, intellectually) individual to be abuse.

We're both atheists. No kids (that I know of!) I've often wondered
how *I* would address the religious aspect of a child's upbringing...

"Teaching" atheism is just as much of an imposition (on a helpless
individual) as would be any other "religion". Yet, not exposing a
child to "religion"/spirituality largely deprives them of this
option, later in life.

OTOH, most religions aren't "casual undertakings". All require/expect
some degree of commitment. How do you *expose* a child (formative
years) without risking him/her being "conditioned" by the experience?

The suggestion proffered by most folks to whom I've posed this
hypothetical tends to be a cop-out: expose the kid to a VARIETY
of religions, then let him/her make up their own mind. Really?
Don't you think a kid is going to just opt for "whichever gets
me out of church quickest"? Or, "wherever I notice the cutest
boys/girls"?

I don't think kids are equipped to understand the consequences of
something like spirituality/religion. I'm not sure most *adults*
can avoid their own "preconditioning" on the subject. I don't
believe in god -- yet the word "god" still has a prominent place
in my vocabulary! Too many years of catechism to completely shed??

Hell, Sister Godzilla told me I'd go to hell for looking up a girl's dress.

I was chatting with some of the hygenists/technicians/whatever-they're-called
at the dentist's office yesterday. They were buttering me up for more
sweets ("It's almost XMAS... hint, hint") and we got on the subject of
diets (as most of my confections are pretty BAD for you -- esp your
weight!)

I mentioned one opinion I'd heard as an off-the-cuff test for a food's
healthiness: smear some of it on your pants leg and, if it leaves a
stain (oily stain), don't eat it! chuckle Then, followed up
with The Cardiologist's Diet: if it tastes good, spit it out!
chuckle chuckle

One of the girls offered, "I come from a Catholic upbringing. We have a
saying: 'If it feels good, it's BAD!'"

For adherents of a faith to be able to see the ridiculousness of such
a proclamation suggests they already KNOW there is something significantly
wrong with what they've been taught!

[I wonder how muslims rationalize the covering up of women-folk. Isn't
that an indictment of the *males'* inability to control themselves??
The mere sight of a woman causes them to lose self control?? (I'm being
facetious)]

I imagine
Catholic families would send the boys who weren't considered to be marriage
material off to a seminary, which could be the reason for the trouble with
priests and alter boys. My older brother attended a seminary until he
decided he didn't want to be a priest when he hit puberty and got interested
in girls.

My FinL entered a seminary and opted back out. He had the right
(theoretical) temperament for the role -- and was one of the
wisest men that I ever knew! -- but, obviously, didn't feel The
Calling. shrug

He left college to join the Army and wound up doing two tours in
Vietnam, the last one as a Green Beret. That was a hell of a switch in
career paths. He went over to the dark side and became a lawyer. My older
sister went to a convent but got interested in boys and changed her mind
about being a nun. The sex drive is very strong in my family and I was
already too evil to be consider for the priesthood. ^_^

One of the priests I knew later in my teenage years left the church
for a woman he had counseled while a priest (I think she had lost
her husband to illness or something). I was still rather young
(early teens) and recall noting the disdain that was expressed over
his choice.

("Gee, I always thought Father ________ was a reasonable, responsible
man. They're painting him to be some sort of CRIMINAL!!")

As I said, when an adherent (at the time) can see such things in the
religion practiced around him, it is an indictment (IMO) of that
religion.

On 9/25/2015 5:51 PM, Don Y wrote:


I consider imposing your ideas of an unproven "thing" (like *a* god) on
another "helpless" (emotionally, intellectually) individual to be abuse.

We're both atheists. No kids (that I know of!) I've often wondered
how *I* would address the religious aspect of a child's upbringing...

"Teaching" atheism is just as much of an imposition (on a helpless
individual) as would be any other "religion". Yet, not exposing a
child to "religion"/spirituality largely deprives them of this
option, later in life.

OTOH, most religions aren't "casual undertakings". All require/expect
some degree of commitment. How do you *expose* a child (formative
years) without risking him/her being "conditioned" by the experience?

We are not atheists, but we are not into organized religion. I think
there just may be some sort of supreme being or a power stronger than us
earthlings. Don't know for sure.

Our kids did attend Catholic schools as it was a very good school, fr
better than the Philadelphia public schools, but we never forced them
into the religious aspects. We did however, teach them to be caring
responsible humans that respect others. You don't have to gather in a
building on Sunday morning to be a good person.

Oh, and you don't have to feel guilty if it feels good to touch
yourself of if boobs look good to you.

On 9/25/2015 3:13 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

We are not atheists, but we are not into organized religion. I think there
just may be some sort of supreme being or a power stronger than us earthlings.
Don't know for sure.

But, do you believe we are the *product* of those beings? Or, just one
of many such beings of "differing supremeness" (to paraphrase) that inhabit
the (this?) universe?

I always found it amusing that folks need to attribute OUR creation to
some sort of entity -- we can't have just "happened"! Yet, are perfectly
happy assuming that this entity "just happened"!

We didn't create ants, alligators, dogs, or lions. Yet, we accept that they
coexist with us. Would ants think *us* to be their Supreme Beings??

Our kids did attend Catholic schools as it was a very good school, fr better
than the Philadelphia public schools, but we never forced them into the
religious aspects.

It was my understanding that catechism was an inherent part of the
curriculum (?). My school district was exemplary so there was little
"draw" for the local RC school (which was modestly sized -- probably
10 classrooms of the same size as those in any of our elementary
schools -- of which a typical school had probably 25 and there were
5 or 6 such public elementary schools in our school district. E.g.,
my high school graduating class was ~250-300. Not large -- but not trivial,
either.

We did however, teach them to be caring responsible humans that respect others.

Exactly. Manners, responsibility, perseverance, etc. "Be an independent,
living unit". I am chagrined at how poor the manners of those fols
with which I typically interact! No one holds doors, says "excuse me"
if they interrupt your line of sight, stands when introduced to another,
offers their seat to a woman/elder, remembers your name/avocation/vocation,
inquires as to your (genuine) health, etc.

I frequently offer assistance to other "strangers" as I pass through parking
lots: "Do you need help getting that out of your cart/into your car?"
It's sad to see how surprised folks are at these little offers! I.e.,
it must not happen very often!

You don't have to gather in a building on Sunday morning to be a good person.

Yes. And, as you will see, many of those alleged "good people" aren't really
very "good", at all! E.g., the guy walking in full "dress" carrying the
nice shiny sword down the center aisle during XMAS mass (KofC) is cheating
on his wife; the guy in similar outfit behind him was recently indicted for
embezzling funds from "his" construction company; the stagger in the
priest's gait isn't a result of Parkinsonian Tremor but, rather, comes
from a *bottle*...

Oh, and you don't have to feel guilty if it feels good to touch yourself of if
boobs look good to you.

And, if they're your *own* boobs (or, you hold the lease on them), all the
better! :

On 9/25/2015 11:02 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/25/2015 8:23 AM, Muggles wrote:
yeah! If the seats in the front aren't comfortable for both myself and
hubby, it's a deal breaker for me.

SWMBO does most "solo" driving. I drive very infrequently. Most of my
time spent in the car is weekly shopping trips. In previous vehicle,
she hated passenger seat (comfort) so ended up driving most of the
time. New car has essentially "equivalent" seats in passenger and
driver spots.

My hubby doesn't ride in my vehicle often, but if he's been ill or had
knee surgery (something like that), he has to ride with me, so the
passenger seat has to fit him and be comfy enough for a ride to the Dr's
office and back. He's a big boy, so the passenger seat has to have some
leg room, too.

If the controls are too complicated,
it's another deal breaker. I once drove some Ford new model and they
said you had to go to a class to learn how to operate all the bells and
whistles it had. DEAL BREAKER! I want to commute to work and around
town, not learn how to program an SUV. I don't need complicated in
order to commute.

As I design these sorts of things for a living, I'm not intimidated
by them. Rather, see them as learning experiences: why did they make
this design choice instead of some *other*?

I ask "why" a lot! haha

I find very few "big" disagreements with their chosen implementation.
Most noteworthy is NOT being able to "backup" your settings to a
thumbdrive. Imagine what happens when you accidentally delete -- or
*lose* -- all the addresses, phone numbers, etc. that you've
meticulously "programmed" into the car/GPS! Likewise, in the
21st century, it doesn't seem too far fetched to let me *edit*
this sort of stuff on a PC in the comfort of my home -- instead
of trying to type stuff in on a touch panel seated in a hot
garage!

I addressed the "how to backup the OTHER settings" issue by creating
a "cheat sheet" that enumerates all the settings, their FACTORY DEFAULT
choices, lists of POSSIBLE choices and *my* choice (using bold and
italics to make the visual distinctions). I laminatated these and
stuffed them in a seat back pocket -- so I don't have to remember
where I "filed" them!

I file/organize things in a similar way, too.

Give me comfortable seats, reliability, heat and AC,
a radio that plays local stations, maybe a CD player, I like power
steering, windows, and seats, and a light colored interior.

We found MANY seats to be very uncomfortable. The Lexus saleswoman
was chagrined that we spent a mere *minutes* at her dealership!
We'd sit in a vehicle, then get up, close the door and walk away -- in
search of another vehicle that *might* have more comfortable seats.
(we didn't find any, there!)

I was almost sold on a Nissan Juke but the seat were terrible. The most
comfortable seats I've tried thus far are in a Nissan Cube.

What's up with offering a black interior as the ONLY choice??

We encountered lots of black-on-black offerings. Totally ridiculous
in an environment where it's sunny 360+ days per year and over 100F
on anywhere between 60 and 100 of those days!

[We likewise lamented the sun/moonroof issue but typically had no choice
in that "option" for the sorts of vehicles in which we were interested.]


I can't stand black interiors if it's going to be my car. I'd rather
have a beige or tan interior.

--
Maggie

On 9/25/2015 11:31 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/25/2015 8:28 AM, Muggles wrote:
On 9/25/2015 10:18 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/25/2015 7:19 AM, Muggles wrote:

[If assault was not a crime, I am *sure* he would have punched
me in the face!]

LOL! I think the people I walked out on felt the same way when I got up
and walked out.

Most people are easily intimidated/coerced. They don't have strong
opinions because they haven't *thought* (using their own braincases)
about the issues they are facing. Easier to "go along" with an
outside force than to *oppose* it!

I get into trouble with some people because I reject the notion that
they even have the authority or right to tell me what to do or not do.
I'll make up my own mind and once I do I'll stick with my decision. It
would be easier to just go along with some people, but it depends on
what they're wanting from me.

[...]


--
Maggie

On 9/25/2015 11:40 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 10:23:01 -0500, Muggles wrote:

yeah! If the seats in the front aren't comfortable for both myself and
hubby, it's a deal breaker for me.

These days cars have become such a commodity item that seating comfort
may be the main thing I look for. There isn't a "Chevy" anymore. You
just get a GM and the same parts may be in any car in the line.
I had a Chrysler with a Mitsubisi engine in it.
Now I am in a Honda Prelude and a Ford truck
OTOH my newest vehicle is 15 years old. My wife has a fairly new
Lincoln but I am not that "driven". A car is just a piece of metal
that gets me up to the store. I used to drive 50,000+ a year when I
was working and I am over the car thing.


I'm just happy my old faithful van still works!

--
Maggie

On 9/25/2015 12:16 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/25/2015 10:19 AM, Muggles wrote:


A while back we went looking for cars and found a subaru that was close
to something I'd want to drive. They dealership wanted a specific
price, but I wanted to pay a different amount. When we sat down to talk
numbers they told me the price was already on the car, and then I told
them how much I was willing to pay for it. The sale man looked at me
and told me that was impossible, but he'd get his manager to come talk
with me. The manager told me the same thing the salesman said about the
price being rock solid on the car, and I told the manager what I was
willing to pay for it. They both looked at me like "well if you want
THIS car you'll pay what we're asking." I looked at them and said, "OK.
Thanks for your time." I got up and walked out of the building and
left the lot. You should have seen the looks on their faces. They
could have sold me the car at my price, but they lost a potential
customer because they weren't willing to come down on it even a little
bit. I've got no problem walking away from a purchase. They thought
they had a sale because I liked the car.

Had a similar situation with my daughter. My graduation gift to her was
the down payment,t he rest on here. She had a job. She went and looked
at a car, had a price, etc. I went later with her to make the deal, but
I asked, what is the real price going to be? Not only did the saleman
not move, my daughter was willing to pay.
She was nearly in tears "it my mney can't I buy what I want?" Then I
remembered the dealer 10 miles down the road. Walked in, same exact car
was there. Just give me a good price and I'll buy it was my answer.
Saved $600. and daughter got a real life lesson. She laughed when the
first salesman called her the next day.


I bet she remembered that life lesson.

--
Maggie

On 9/25/2015 1:06 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 09:19:55 -0500, Muggles wrote:

A while back we went looking for cars and found a subaru that was close
to something I'd want to drive. They dealership wanted a specific
price, but I wanted to pay a different amount. When we sat down to talk
numbers they told me the price was already on the car, and then I told
them how much I was willing to pay for it. The sale man looked at me
and told me that was impossible, but he'd get his manager to come talk
with me. The manager told me the same thing the salesman said about the
price being rock solid on the car, and I told the manager what I was
willing to pay for it. They both looked at me like "well if you want
THIS car you'll pay what we're asking." I looked at them and said, "OK.
Thanks for your time." I got up and walked out of the building and
left the lot. You should have seen the looks on their faces. They
could have sold me the car at my price, but they lost a potential
customer because they weren't willing to come down on it even a little
bit. I've got no problem walking away from a purchase. They thought
they had a sale because I liked the car.

Car salesmen are like many other crooks. The prey upon people. The
first clue is when "I have to run this by my manager!" He goes back
to see him/her, they have a few jokes and come back with the same song
and dance - nothing changes.

_Confessions of a Car Salesman_ (series)

http://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/confessions-of-a-car-salesman.html

Check and see if Sam's Club or Cost co still have a program for buying
a car. I used Sam's in 1994, walked into the dealer, bought the
Bronco I wanted -- no fuss, no mess. Had a check from my credit union
in hand and signed the papers. Drove home.


Didn't know Sam's Club sold cars.

--
Maggie

On 9/25/2015 1:52 PM, Don Y wrote:
[...]
[I have *many* conservative beliefs but am forced to compromise them
because the Conservative Alternative is a cartoon. And, seems to be
headed even further into the fringe. Notice the resemblance in
Bozo the Clown and Trump's hairpieces? : ]

What beliefs do you compromise?

[...]


People are inherently insecure and greedy. That greed is usually aimed
at bolstering their sense of security (it may be for non-monetary
things -- power, recognition, publicity, etc.). Keeping people insecure
just fosters more abuses of The System -- whatever System that may be!

People who are insecure and greedy usually tend to be bullies.

--
Maggie

On 9/25/2015 4:00 PM, Muggles wrote:

Give me comfortable seats, reliability, heat and AC,
a radio that plays local stations, maybe a CD player, I like power
steering, windows, and seats, and a light colored interior.

We found MANY seats to be very uncomfortable. The Lexus saleswoman
was chagrined that we spent a mere *minutes* at her dealership!
We'd sit in a vehicle, then get up, close the door and walk away -- in
search of another vehicle that *might* have more comfortable seats.
(we didn't find any, there!)

I was almost sold on a Nissan Juke but the seat were terrible. The most
comfortable seats I've tried thus far are in a Nissan Cube.

We found the seats in the Rogue, IIRC, comfortable. The Murano's
seats felt too "conforming" (or, maybe I got that backwards)?
The rogue had an interesting "rear shelf" in the cargo area
that would have been of use to us. But, to be of *real* value,
you'd have to buy a spare (the shelf is nominally the floor of
the cargo area so when you raise it to the upper "shelf" position,
you lose that rigid floor support)

We ruled out both vehicles because they both had "bugs" (flaws)
in the vehicles we test drove: one wouldn't operate the rear
liftgate when commanded (could be a broken switch or wire... or,
even a configuration setting! But, the saleslady should have
been able to address that problem: "See? this setting controls
that feature!") and the other vehicle I was able to crash the
navigation/entertainment system leaving it completely unresponsive.
Not a good sign given that the dealership has continuous access
to those vehicles AND the paid staff to keep them fully operational
at all times! ("first impressions")

What's up with offering a black interior as the ONLY choice??

We encountered lots of black-on-black offerings. Totally ridiculous
in an environment where it's sunny 360+ days per year and over 100F
on anywhere between 60 and 100 of those days!

[We likewise lamented the sun/moonroof issue but typically had no choice
in that "option" for the sorts of vehicles in which we were interested.]

I can't stand black interiors if it's going to be my car. I'd rather
have a beige or tan interior.

Some vehicles had light "fabric" but dark dash, side panels, etc.

A downside of the beige interior (which is what we had and what
we chose for the new vehicle) is that it "scuffs" easily and
visibly. Lots of blackish marks where the soles of my shoes
drag across the threshold (if I fail to lift my feet high enough
to completely "clear" that threshold).

On 9/25/2015 4:51 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/25/2015 1:29 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:

People are inherently insecure and greedy. That greed is usually
aimed at
bolstering their sense of security (it may be for non-monetary things --
power, recognition, publicity, etc.). Keeping people insecure just
fosters more abuses of The System -- whatever System that may be!

When I was a small boy at the Catholic parochial gulag, I suffered a
lot of
abuse but never anything sexual. Most of the abuse was mental.

I consider imposing your ideas of an unproven "thing" (like *a* god) on
another "helpless" (emotionally, intellectually) individual to be abuse.

We're both atheists. No kids (that I know of!) I've often wondered
how *I* would address the religious aspect of a child's upbringing...

"Teaching" atheism is just as much of an imposition (on a helpless
individual) as would be any other "religion". Yet, not exposing a
child to "religion"/spirituality largely deprives them of this
option, later in life.

OTOH, most religions aren't "casual undertakings". All require/expect
some degree of commitment. How do you *expose* a child (formative
years) without risking him/her being "conditioned" by the experience?

You can't. All you can do is the best you can do and allow them to make
up their own minds.

[...]


--
Maggie

On 9/25/2015 4:04 PM, Muggles wrote:
Most people are easily intimidated/coerced. They don't have strong
opinions because they haven't *thought* (using their own braincases)
about the issues they are facing. Easier to "go along" with an
outside force than to *oppose* it!

I get into trouble with some people because I reject the notion that
they even have the authority or right to tell me what to do or not do.
I'll make up my own mind and once I do I'll stick with my decision. It
would be easier to just go along with some people, but it depends on
what they're wanting from me.

Societal and social norms allow select people to have greater control
over our actions at different times/situations.

A police officer pulls you over and you *will* stop. When he requests
your DL+registration, you *will* provide it. You surrendered these
liberties when you consented to driving a vehicle.

When you visit a friend, colleague, you are morally obligated to honor
their wishes regarding your behavior in their home. If they ask you
to leave, you *will* leave. If they ask you to take off your
shoes ("please"), you will or will not enter, etc.

At work, your employer has control (to a large degree) over your
actions, etc. You're not free to exercise your will or opinion
regardless of how "correct" it may (or may not) be.

The times where no such implicit constraints are imposed on your
behavior is the most interesting: are you cooperative? obstructionist?
combative? etc.

We don't smoke. If I'm in the middle of a public field (outdoors,
beyond the reach of legal restrictions on smoking) and the person
I'm speaking with chooses to smoke while speaking to me, I have
a choice:
- do I ask him (politely) to please not smoke around me (why not??)?
- do I object to his inconsiderate blowing smoke in my face (not
intentionally but, rather, out of sheer ignorance)?
- do I put up with his habit recognizing he has little physical
choice in the matter?
- do I walk away?

If I'm throwing a dinner party, do I feel obligated to invite him
if I *know* he won't honor my request NOT to smoke?

For a humorous alternate example, imagine having a friend with
a health condition that results in excessive, fragrant flatulence...
do I invite him to that same dinner party -- knowing it may make
my other guests uncomfortable? Where do my obligations end
and my freedom of choice take over?

On 9/25/2015 4:35 PM, Muggles wrote:

OTOH, most religions aren't "casual undertakings". All require/expect
some degree of commitment. How do you *expose* a child (formative
years) without risking him/her being "conditioned" by the experience?

You can't. All you can do is the best you can do and allow them to make
up their own minds.

You've avoided the question! : Chances are, any house of worship will be
a "drive" from home. When they are young (e.g., 5, 6, 10, etc.) do I
expect them to hoof it to the church? Do I expect them to take the
initiative to explore the possible offerings? Do *I* take them to each
service? How do I explain my presence *in* that service given my own
personal beliefs? Do I *hide* my beliefs from them? etc.

I.e., I have to assume some sort of ACTIVE role if they are to be
exposed to religion/spirituality at all. Do I start offering
a "blessing" before each meal? (How do I explain that given my
personal beliefs?) Do i try to get them to hitch a ride with a
neighbor -- or *different* neighbors/family/etc. depending on the
religion du jour?

On 9/25/2015 4:23 PM, Muggles wrote:
On 9/25/2015 1:52 PM, Don Y wrote:
[...]
[I have *many* conservative beliefs but am forced to compromise them
because the Conservative Alternative is a cartoon. And, seems to be
headed even further into the fringe. Notice the resemblance in
Bozo the Clown and Trump's hairpieces? : ]

What beliefs do you compromise?

Suffice it to say that I don't believe everything the right has to say
(on ANYTHING) or the left (on those same ANYTHINGS). But, when one
party isn't stating what it's beliefs/goals *will* be, then I have
to assume they MAY be really really counter to my own! And, instead,
err on the side of what those who are willing to *state* their beliefs
and policies are/will be.

People are inherently insecure and greedy. That greed is usually aimed
at bolstering their sense of security (it may be for non-monetary
things -- power, recognition, publicity, etc.). Keeping people insecure
just fosters more abuses of The System -- whatever System that may be!

People who are insecure and greedy usually tend to be bullies.

They also tend to be narcissistic and unsympathetic to the needs/desires
of others. Their needs/wants "trump" (:) all others!

On 9/25/2015 1:06 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 09:19:55 -0500, Muggles wrote:

A while back we went looking for cars and found a subaru that was close
to something I'd want to drive. They dealership wanted a specific
price, but I wanted to pay a different amount. When we sat down to talk
numbers they told me the price was already on the car, and then I told
them how much I was willing to pay for it. The sale man looked at me
and told me that was impossible, but he'd get his manager to come talk
with me. The manager told me the same thing the salesman said about the
price being rock solid on the car, and I told the manager what I was
willing to pay for it. They both looked at me like "well if you want
THIS car you'll pay what we're asking." I looked at them and said, "OK.
Thanks for your time." I got up and walked out of the building and
left the lot. You should have seen the looks on their faces. They
could have sold me the car at my price, but they lost a potential
customer because they weren't willing to come down on it even a little
bit. I've got no problem walking away from a purchase. They thought
they had a sale because I liked the car.

Car salesmen are like many other crooks. The prey upon people. The
first clue is when "I have to run this by my manager!" He goes back
to see him/her, they have a few jokes and come back with the same song
and dance - nothing changes.


LOL! Idiots abound and they play their silly-assed games. Had a friend
who did a spell as a car salesman. Told me that if I wanted to buy a
car, wait until the end of the month. The floor time, bonuses, etc were
based on what the salesmen did THAT month. Everybody was HUNGRY at the
end of the month and willing to cut back just to make the sale for the
numbers.

In my first mid-life crisis I decided that I wanted to plant my butt in
a nice convertible for once. Found a sharp used Chrysler LeBaron with
all the bells & whistles. Mind you, I wanted the car, but I surely did
not NEED the car. It was towards the end of the month, I had researched
the price of the car, had been allowed to take it overnight, noticed a
problem and the dealer - non-Chrysler store - sent it to the local
Chrysler dealer for service. Knew one of the mechanics there, called
him and, as luck would have it, he serviced it that day when it came in.
Checked it out for me, looked up the computer records and gave it a
clean bill of health.

Sat down with the salesman, told him all the car needed (tires and
brakes) and told him the price I was willing to pay. He did the dance,
went out to "talk to his boss" came back and said, "Okay, what will it
take to put you in this car?" I handed him a piece of note paper with
the same amount on it and asked him if he was hard of hearing. "That's
my price, meet it or I'm gone. I like the car, I want the car but I
sure don't need the car or this BS." I bought it at my price.

They will play you like a cheap fiddle if you let them.

Muggles wrote:
On 9/24/2015 4:46 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/24/2015 2:40 PM, Muggles wrote:

As a customer, I could care less about how many silly awards your
car company has won. There are all sorts of awards essentially designed
so EVERYONE wins something! Tell me something specific about *this*
vehicle. Something in which *I* have expressed an interest...

Sounds reasonable to me! I've come across salesman who could sell, but
it wasn't because they really knew anything about their product.

Smoke and mirrors. Ego stroking. etc.

If you think carefully about what you are doing and what they are
saying, it's relatively easy to see the "curtain" hiding Oz.

A while back we went looking for cars and found a subaru that was close
to something I'd want to drive. They dealership wanted a specific
price, but I wanted to pay a different amount. When we sat down to talk
numbers they told me the price was already on the car, and then I told
them how much I was willing to pay for it. The sale man looked at me
and told me that was impossible, but he'd get his manager to come talk
with me. The manager told me the same thing the salesman said about the
price being rock solid on the car, and I told the manager what I was
willing to pay for it. They both looked at me like "well if you want
THIS car you'll pay what we're asking." I looked at them and said, "OK.
Thanks for your time." I got up and walked out of the building and
left the lot. You should have seen the looks on their faces. They
could have sold me the car at my price, but they lost a potential
customer because they weren't willing to come down on it even a little
bit. I've got no problem walking away from a purchase. They thought
they had a sale because I liked the car.

I can understand a shoe salesman not knowing much about the
shoes he/she sells (what is there to know besides price, size,
etc?). But, something as big, complex and expensive as a
motor vehicle seems to justify knowing more than the number
of *wheels* it has! ("Um, I'll have to get back to you on
that... Hey, Jim... do you know how many wheels are on
this vehicle? I've got a customer who wants to know...")


I guess it's pretty bad if the salesman can't answer easy questions!

Good salesmen are trained. And train is on going with the evolution of
product. THey go to car manufacturer's training school. They are
professional not like kids working at Best buy.

On 9/25/2015 8:30 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
"Okay, what will it
take to put you in this car?"


If you try to put me in a car, you'd best have a
badge, gun, and probable cause.

OTOH, you might make me a reasonable offer, and
I'll choose to buy the car.

Don't treat me like a piece of meat.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On 9/25/2015 5:51 PM, Don Y wrote:
OTOH, most religions aren't "casual undertakings". All require/expect
some degree of commitment. How do you *expose* a child (formative
years) without risking him/her being "conditioned" by the experience?

There are seven major religions, how do you choose the official one?
Choose wrong and your spawn roasts in hell for eternity.

On 9/25/2015 5:39 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
I guess it's pretty bad if the salesman can't answer easy questions!

Good salesmen are trained. And train is on going with the evolution of
product. THey go to car manufacturer's training school. They are professional
not like kids working at Best buy.

But the choice of training determines what that salesman will know -- unless
left to his own devices to seek MORE information.

E.g., I am willing to bet they could tell you how much per $K it costs
to finance any vehicle at whatever their current financing terms are!

OOH, if I were to inquire as to the criteria by which the vehicle
decides how many *cylinders* to use at any given instant, I'd
expect most salesfolks (and probably many technicians!) to
stare at me dumbfounded. Assuming they even KNOW that the
ECU has this characteristic!

On 9/25/2015 6:52 PM, Tim and Jammy Baker wrote:
On 9/25/2015 5:51 PM, Don Y wrote:
OTOH, most religions aren't "casual undertakings". All require/expect
some degree of commitment. How do you *expose* a child (formative
years) without risking him/her being "conditioned" by the experience?

There are seven major religions, how do you choose the official one?
Choose wrong and your spawn roasts in hell for eternity.

And how many zany offshoots? We've got all sorts of "local" churches
that each adopt their own set of beliefs. Ah, you're a Presbyterian.1A,
not to be confused with a Presbyterian.1B!

Ask most folks to describe the tenets of some *other* religion
and they'll mumble. Ask *many* to describe (ALL) the tenets of
their own espoused religion and they'll probably just hit on
the "big ones" -- completely oblivious to the majority of
the dogma guiding their worship.

(How many Christians emphasize Christmas as the highest holy-day?
Isn't Easter the whole point of Christianity??! Ooops!)

On 9/25/2015 6:32 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/25/2015 3:13 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

We are not atheists, but we are not into organized religion. I think
there
just may be some sort of supreme being or a power stronger than us
earthlings.
Don't know for sure.

But, do you believe we are the *product* of those beings? Or, just one
of many such beings of "differing supremeness" (to paraphrase) that inhabit
the (this?) universe?

I always found it amusing that folks need to attribute OUR creation to
some sort of entity -- we can't have just "happened"! Yet, are perfectly
happy assuming that this entity "just happened"!

I have no idea how we originated. We may be just like the ant farm
where you can observe the ant, maybe others are watching us. Watch a
couple episodes of Ancient Aliens for some ideas. It can get you
thinking though.



It was my understanding that catechism was an inherent part of the
curriculum (?). My school district was exemplary so there was little
"draw" for the local RC school (which was modestly sized -- probably
10 classrooms of the same size as those in any of our elementary
schools -- of which a typical school had probably 25 and there were
5 or 6 such public elementary schools in our school district. E.g.,
my high school graduating class was ~250-300. Not large -- but not
trivial,
either.

You were fortunate. My graduating class was 800 and that was just the
boy's high school in our area.

Catechism was taught, but being able to make up your own mind about
thing help. Our kids were taught to question things.

On Friday, September 25, 2015 at 6:58:03 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 9/25/2015 4:04 PM, Muggles wrote:
Most people are easily intimidated/coerced. They don't have strong
opinions because they haven't *thought* (using their own braincases)
about the issues they are facing. Easier to "go along" with an
outside force than to *oppose* it!

I get into trouble with some people because I reject the notion that
they even have the authority or right to tell me what to do or not do.
I'll make up my own mind and once I do I'll stick with my decision. It
would be easier to just go along with some people, but it depends on
what they're wanting from me.

Societal and social norms allow select people to have greater control
over our actions at different times/situations.

A police officer pulls you over and you *will* stop. When he requests
your DL+registration, you *will* provide it. You surrendered these
liberties when you consented to driving a vehicle.

When you visit a friend, colleague, you are morally obligated to honor
their wishes regarding your behavior in their home. If they ask you
to leave, you *will* leave. If they ask you to take off your
shoes ("please"), you will or will not enter, etc.

At work, your employer has control (to a large degree) over your
actions, etc. You're not free to exercise your will or opinion
regardless of how "correct" it may (or may not) be.

The times where no such implicit constraints are imposed on your
behavior is the most interesting: are you cooperative? obstructionist?
combative? etc.

We don't smoke. If I'm in the middle of a public field (outdoors,
beyond the reach of legal restrictions on smoking) and the person
I'm speaking with chooses to smoke while speaking to me, I have
a choice:
- do I ask him (politely) to please not smoke around me (why not??)?
- do I object to his inconsiderate blowing smoke in my face (not
intentionally but, rather, out of sheer ignorance)?
- do I put up with his habit recognizing he has little physical
choice in the matter?
- do I walk away?

If I'm throwing a dinner party, do I feel obligated to invite him
if I *know* he won't honor my request NOT to smoke?

For a humorous alternate example, imagine having a friend with
a health condition that results in excessive, fragrant flatulence...
do I invite him to that same dinner party -- knowing it may make
my other guests uncomfortable? Where do my obligations end
and my freedom of choice take over?

Buy him some anti flatulence undershorts that have activated charcoal filters built-in. ^_^

http://under-tec.com/

[8~{} Uncle Fart Monster

On Friday, September 25, 2015 at 8:15:42 PM UTC-5, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 9/25/2015 8:30 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
"Okay, what will it
take to put you in this car?"


If you try to put me in a car, you'd best have a
badge, gun, and probable cause.

OTOH, you might make me a reasonable offer, and
I'll choose to buy the car.

Don't treat me like a piece of meat.
-
.

Why not, you are a meat puppet. ^_^

http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...=meat%20puppet

http://psiops.wikia.com/wiki/Meat_Puppet

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MeatPuppet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-HFbNhTTKQ

[8~{} Uncle Puppet Monster

On 9/25/2015 8:36 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/25/2015 6:32 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/25/2015 3:13 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

We are not atheists, but we are not into organized religion. I think
there
just may be some sort of supreme being or a power stronger than us
earthlings.
Don't know for sure.

But, do you believe we are the *product* of those beings? Or, just one
of many such beings of "differing supremeness" (to paraphrase) that inhabit
the (this?) universe?

I always found it amusing that folks need to attribute OUR creation to
some sort of entity -- we can't have just "happened"! Yet, are perfectly
happy assuming that this entity "just happened"!

I have no idea how we originated.

Exactly. Yet others are "confident" that some particular book (any of many)
tells the True Story.

We may be just like the ant farm where you can observe the ant, maybe others
are watching us. Watch a couple episodes of Ancient Aliens for some ideas.

Or, the trailers from MIB! :

It can get you thinking though.

That's the key -- THINKING! Not relying on dogma.

It was my understanding that catechism was an inherent part of the
curriculum (?). My school district was exemplary so there was little
"draw" for the local RC school (which was modestly sized -- probably
10 classrooms of the same size as those in any of our elementary
schools -- of which a typical school had probably 25 and there were
5 or 6 such public elementary schools in our school district. E.g.,
my high school graduating class was ~250-300. Not large -- but not
trivial,
either.

You were fortunate. My graduating class was 800 and that was just the boy's
high school in our area.

Very suburban up-bringing. The HS was fed by four towns -- and was
still just that size (4 grades).

Catechism was taught, but being able to make up your own mind about thing
help. Our kids were taught to question things.

I'm not sure how much I was encouraged to question things. I think it is
a natural personality trait of mine. I know I frustrated my folks while
growing up by constantly asking "What?" and "Why?". Given that most
of my questions were beyond their capacity to answer... shrug

OTOH, they encouraged me to learn for myself. Any "why" was invariably
met with a book or some other teaching aid -- from them, some extended
family member, a babysitter, etc. E.g., I recall building a "Visible
Woman" model when just a youngster:
http://hilobrow.com/2015/06/18/museum-of-femoribilia-9/
In 1960, toymaker Renwal introduced the Visible Woman, a foot-high
plastic model kit clearly meant for serious-minded children under
strict parental supervision, not seekers of prurient thrills. To
that end, the Visible Woman had a uterus, ovaries and fallopian
tubes, but lacked the more problematic vagina and clitoris, just
as the otherwise anatomically correct Visible Man’s groin resembled
that of a Ken doll. Nevertheless, each Visible Woman was packaged
with a special “adapter kit for 7-months pregnant female.” This
consisted of a special breast plate, enlarged uterus, and a wee
fetus. The instructions “emphasized that assembly of this added
feature is entirely discretionary,” presumably to be undertaken
only after Mr. and Mrs. Visible Man were legally wed.

Not the sort of thing my friends and peers were doing at the time!

On 9/25/2015 9:52 PM, Tim and Jammy Baker wrote:
On 9/25/2015 5:51 PM, Don Y wrote:
OTOH, most religions aren't "casual undertakings". All require/expect
some degree of commitment. How do you *expose* a child (formative
years) without risking him/her being "conditioned" by the experience?

There are seven major religions, how do you choose the official one?
Choose wrong and your spawn roasts in hell for eternity.

Or, I'm expecting to hear from Mr. Bowman, on the
subject. Choose the wrong religion and your
spawn might be in outer darkness, Valhalla,
Paradise Earth, purgatory, Hades, endless
reincarnation, or some where else. Seeing as how
hell is a concept of Christians only.

-
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 18:08:51 -0500, Muggles wrote:

On 9/25/2015 1:06 PM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 09:19:55 -0500, Muggles wrote:

A while back we went looking for cars and found a subaru that was close
to something I'd want to drive. They dealership wanted a specific
price, but I wanted to pay a different amount. When we sat down to talk
numbers they told me the price was already on the car, and then I told
them how much I was willing to pay for it. The sale man looked at me
and told me that was impossible, but he'd get his manager to come talk
with me. The manager told me the same thing the salesman said about the
price being rock solid on the car, and I told the manager what I was
willing to pay for it. They both looked at me like "well if you want
THIS car you'll pay what we're asking." I looked at them and said, "OK.
Thanks for your time." I got up and walked out of the building and
left the lot. You should have seen the looks on their faces. They
could have sold me the car at my price, but they lost a potential
customer because they weren't willing to come down on it even a little
bit. I've got no problem walking away from a purchase. They thought
they had a sale because I liked the car.

Car salesmen are like many other crooks. The prey upon people. The
first clue is when "I have to run this by my manager!" He goes back
to see him/her, they have a few jokes and come back with the same song
and dance - nothing changes.

_Confessions of a Car Salesman_ (series)

http://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/confessions-of-a-car-salesman.html

Check and see if Sam's Club or Cost co still have a program for buying
a car. I used Sam's in 1994, walked into the dealer, bought the
Bronco I wanted -- no fuss, no mess. Had a check from my credit union
in hand and signed the papers. Drove home.


Didn't know Sam's Club sold cars.

They don't as far as I know. In '94,, they had a program and you told
them the brand of vehicle (Ford) and sent you to a dealer specific.
Show the salesman the paper and there was not haggling.

Found this:

_Buying a Car with Costco or Sams Club_

http://carbuyinghowto.com/buying-a-car-with-costco-or-sams-club/

On 9/25/2015 6:26 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/25/2015 4:00 PM, Muggles wrote:

Give me comfortable seats, reliability, heat and AC,
a radio that plays local stations, maybe a CD player, I like power
steering, windows, and seats, and a light colored interior.

We found MANY seats to be very uncomfortable. The Lexus saleswoman
was chagrined that we spent a mere *minutes* at her dealership!
We'd sit in a vehicle, then get up, close the door and walk away -- in
search of another vehicle that *might* have more comfortable seats.
(we didn't find any, there!)

I was almost sold on a Nissan Juke but the seat were terrible. The most
comfortable seats I've tried thus far are in a Nissan Cube.

We found the seats in the Rogue, IIRC, comfortable. The Murano's
seats felt too "conforming" (or, maybe I got that backwards)?
The rogue had an interesting "rear shelf" in the cargo area
that would have been of use to us. But, to be of *real* value,
you'd have to buy a spare (the shelf is nominally the floor of
the cargo area so when you raise it to the upper "shelf" position,
you lose that rigid floor support)

We ruled out both vehicles because they both had "bugs" (flaws)
in the vehicles we test drove: one wouldn't operate the rear
liftgate when commanded (could be a broken switch or wire... or,
even a configuration setting! But, the saleslady should have
been able to address that problem: "See? this setting controls
that feature!") and the other vehicle I was able to crash the
navigation/entertainment system leaving it completely unresponsive.
Not a good sign given that the dealership has continuous access
to those vehicles AND the paid staff to keep them fully operational
at all times! ("first impressions")

I remember driving a Rogue. The seats were OK, but it drove kind of
clunky, so I marked that off my list, too.

What's up with offering a black interior as the ONLY choice??

We encountered lots of black-on-black offerings. Totally ridiculous
in an environment where it's sunny 360+ days per year and over 100F
on anywhere between 60 and 100 of those days!

[We likewise lamented the sun/moonroof issue but typically had no choice
in that "option" for the sorts of vehicles in which we were interested.]

I can't stand black interiors if it's going to be my car. I'd rather
have a beige or tan interior.

Some vehicles had light "fabric" but dark dash, side panels, etc.

A downside of the beige interior (which is what we had and what
we chose for the new vehicle) is that it "scuffs" easily and
visibly. Lots of blackish marks where the soles of my shoes
drag across the threshold (if I fail to lift my feet high enough
to completely "clear" that threshold).


I don't mind if the color is a medium shade of tan or grey. I just
can't stand black.
--
Maggie

On 9/25/2015 6:58 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/25/2015 4:04 PM, Muggles wrote:
Most people are easily intimidated/coerced. They don't have strong
opinions because they haven't *thought* (using their own braincases)
about the issues they are facing. Easier to "go along" with an
outside force than to *oppose* it!

I get into trouble with some people because I reject the notion that
they even have the authority or right to tell me what to do or not do.
I'll make up my own mind and once I do I'll stick with my decision. It
would be easier to just go along with some people, but it depends on
what they're wanting from me.

Societal and social norms allow select people to have greater control
over our actions at different times/situations.

A police officer pulls you over and you *will* stop. When he requests
your DL+registration, you *will* provide it. You surrendered these
liberties when you consented to driving a vehicle.

When you visit a friend, colleague, you are morally obligated to honor
their wishes regarding your behavior in their home. If they ask you
to leave, you *will* leave. If they ask you to take off your
shoes ("please"), you will or will not enter, etc.

Had one of my sons X girl friends get in the middle of a family
disagreement while she was at my house. I asked her to step outside on
the porch and wait for us to talk, and she refused. I nearly picked her
up by her ear to escort her out, and my son could see THAT look in my
eyes, too, but I could see the look in his eyes saying to me "Please
don't do that...", so I didn't toss her out on her ear. BUT, I REALLY
WANTED TO!

At work, your employer has control (to a large degree) over your
actions, etc. You're not free to exercise your will or opinion
regardless of how "correct" it may (or may not) be.

The times where no such implicit constraints are imposed on your
behavior is the most interesting: are you cooperative? obstructionist?
combative? etc.

We don't smoke. If I'm in the middle of a public field (outdoors,
beyond the reach of legal restrictions on smoking) and the person
I'm speaking with chooses to smoke while speaking to me, I have
a choice:
- do I ask him (politely) to please not smoke around me (why not??)?
- do I object to his inconsiderate blowing smoke in my face (not
intentionally but, rather, out of sheer ignorance)?
- do I put up with his habit recognizing he has little physical
choice in the matter?
- do I walk away?

If I'm throwing a dinner party, do I feel obligated to invite him
if I *know* he won't honor my request NOT to smoke?

For a humorous alternate example, imagine having a friend with
a health condition that results in excessive, fragrant flatulence...
do I invite him to that same dinner party -- knowing it may make
my other guests uncomfortable? Where do my obligations end
and my freedom of choice take over?

Lots of choices there! lol

--
Maggie

On 9/25/2015 7:02 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/25/2015 4:35 PM, Muggles wrote:

OTOH, most religions aren't "casual undertakings". All require/expect
some degree of commitment. How do you *expose* a child (formative
years) without risking him/her being "conditioned" by the experience?

You can't. All you can do is the best you can do and allow them to make
up their own minds.

You've avoided the question! :

LOL It's the truth! If you expose a child to anything you risk them
being conditioned. OTOH, if you don't expose them to something, it could
have a similar result - conditioning to avoid X or Y.

Chances are, any house of worship will be
a "drive" from home. When they are young (e.g., 5, 6, 10, etc.) do I
expect them to hoof it to the church? Do I expect them to take the
initiative to explore the possible offerings? Do *I* take them to each
service? How do I explain my presence *in* that service given my own
personal beliefs? Do I *hide* my beliefs from them? etc.

Just be honest if/when those questions are asked of you. You don't have
to know all the answers, and it's OK to tell them you haven't got all
the answers.

I.e., I have to assume some sort of ACTIVE role if they are to be
exposed to religion/spirituality at all. Do I start offering
a "blessing" before each meal? (How do I explain that given my
personal beliefs?) Do i try to get them to hitch a ride with a
neighbor -- or *different* neighbors/family/etc. depending on the
religion du jour?


You just do what you feel is right for you to do concerning those
things. Kids will understand if you aren't sure about something.

--
Maggie

On 9/25/2015 7:05 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/25/2015 4:23 PM, Muggles wrote:
On 9/25/2015 1:52 PM, Don Y wrote:
[...]
[I have *many* conservative beliefs but am forced to compromise them
because the Conservative Alternative is a cartoon. And, seems to be
headed even further into the fringe. Notice the resemblance in
Bozo the Clown and Trump's hairpieces? : ]

What beliefs do you compromise?

Suffice it to say that I don't believe everything the right has to say
(on ANYTHING) or the left (on those same ANYTHINGS). But, when one
party isn't stating what it's beliefs/goals *will* be, then I have
to assume they MAY be really really counter to my own! And, instead,
err on the side of what those who are willing to *state* their beliefs
and policies are/will be.

I figure life and politics is one gigantic mess anyway. All I can do is
the best I can with the information I have at the time I have to make a
decision, and try not to have unrealistic expectations.


People are inherently insecure and greedy. That greed is usually aimed
at bolstering their sense of security (it may be for non-monetary
things -- power, recognition, publicity, etc.). Keeping people insecure
just fosters more abuses of The System -- whatever System that may be!

People who are insecure and greedy usually tend to be bullies.

They also tend to be narcissistic and unsympathetic to the needs/desires
of others. Their needs/wants "trump" (:) all others!

HA!

--
Maggie

On 9/26/2015 3:53 PM, Muggles wrote:

We found the seats in the Rogue, IIRC, comfortable. The Murano's
seats felt too "conforming" (or, maybe I got that backwards)?
The rogue had an interesting "rear shelf" in the cargo area
that would have been of use to us. But, to be of *real* value,
you'd have to buy a spare (the shelf is nominally the floor of
the cargo area so when you raise it to the upper "shelf" position,
you lose that rigid floor support)

We ruled out both vehicles because they both had "bugs" (flaws)
in the vehicles we test drove: one wouldn't operate the rear
liftgate when commanded (could be a broken switch or wire... or,
even a configuration setting! But, the saleslady should have
been able to address that problem: "See? this setting controls
that feature!") and the other vehicle I was able to crash the
navigation/entertainment system leaving it completely unresponsive.
Not a good sign given that the dealership has continuous access
to those vehicles AND the paid staff to keep them fully operational
at all times! ("first impressions")

I remember driving a Rogue. The seats were OK, but it drove kind of
clunky, so I marked that off my list, too.

We found the Nissan's to be sort of "chevy" class vehicles. Just
not the same quality that we were looking for in a "long term"
purchase.

Some vehicles had light "fabric" but dark dash, side panels, etc.

A downside of the beige interior (which is what we had and what
we chose for the new vehicle) is that it "scuffs" easily and
visibly. Lots of blackish marks where the soles of my shoes
drag across the threshold (if I fail to lift my feet high enough
to completely "clear" that threshold).

I don't mind if the color is a medium shade of tan or grey. I just
can't stand black.

I had noted the "scuff marks" in our previous vehicle. It was
just a niggling little detail that irked me -- the car always
looked like it hadn't been cleaned (on the inside).

Repeating this with the *new* car seems like we failed to learn
that lesson! :-/

I will start looking carefully at the various shoes that I wear
to see if it is a fault of the *shoes*. Then, just eliminate
the offender(s)!

On 9/26/2015 4:02 PM, Muggles wrote:

When you visit a friend, colleague, you are morally obligated to honor
their wishes regarding your behavior in their home. If they ask you
to leave, you *will* leave. If they ask you to take off your
shoes ("please"), you will or will not enter, etc.

Had one of my sons X girl friends get in the middle of a family
disagreement while she was at my house. I asked her to step outside on
the porch and wait for us to talk, and she refused. I nearly picked her
up by her ear to escort her out, and my son could see THAT look in my
eyes, too, but I could see the look in his eyes saying to me "Please
don't do that...", so I didn't toss her out on her ear. BUT, I REALLY
WANTED TO!

As I said, it's a *moral* obligation. There are many folks who see
the world as revolving around themselves and don't feel "obligated"
to play by social rules.

I tend to be very clinical in dealing with "boundaries".

Many years ago, I was invited to my boss's home for dinner. It
was early November -- T-day on the near horizon. They had a
young daughter (8?). I showed up with a Godiva chocolate *turkey*
for her. She was clinging to her mom's leg as I walked in.

I handed the turkey to the *mother*. She looked at me, puzzled:
"But, isn't this for daughter?" I said, "Yes. But, I don't think
she should be accepting a gift/candy from a stranger (despite the fact
that Mom & Dad obviously *both* know me!)"

I.e., daughter knows where the turkey came from. Daughter knows who to
thank. *Mom* will decide when -- and if -- she can eat it. I have
no role in this beyond my giving.

Likwise, I am "honorary Uncle" to many kids (some of which are now
considerably "grown"). And, have been welcomed into many families'
"inner circles". So, I see the families "in their normal/home
environments" -- with all the blemishes, etc.

Over the years, have seen many arguments (between parents), many
times watched kids being chastised/disciplined, etc. Not my
business to interfere. Not my business to offer advice (unless
directly asked). I should do my best to not make any of them
more uncomfortable than they probably are, already (i.e., they
KNOW I am present and yet have allowed things to escalate to this
point)

Also, not my business to share what I've seen/heard with anyone
outside that group (e.g., *their* inlaws, aunts, etc.)

OTOH, I have seen others in similar situations quick to volunteer
advice, take sides, etc.

On 9/26/2015 9:10 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/26/2015 3:53 PM, Muggles wrote:
[...]
I don't mind if the color is a medium shade of tan or grey. I just
can't stand black.

I had noted the "scuff marks" in our previous vehicle. It was
just a niggling little detail that irked me -- the car always
looked like it hadn't been cleaned (on the inside).

Repeating this with the *new* car seems like we failed to learn
that lesson! :-/

I will start looking carefully at the various shoes that I wear
to see if it is a fault of the *shoes*. Then, just eliminate
the offender(s)!

Then again, isn't a car supposed to show a little bit of use?

--
Maggie

On 9/26/2015 8:33 PM, Muggles wrote:

I will start looking carefully at the various shoes that I wear
to see if it is a fault of the *shoes*. Then, just eliminate
the offender(s)!

Then again, isn't a car supposed to show a little bit of use?

*Use*, not "signs that someone got in and then OUT of it"!

On 9/26/2015 10:45 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/26/2015 8:33 PM, Muggles wrote:

I will start looking carefully at the various shoes that I wear
to see if it is a fault of the *shoes*. Then, just eliminate
the offender(s)!

Then again, isn't a car supposed to show a little bit of use?

*Use*, not "signs that someone got in and then OUT of it"!


Isn't that "use"?

--
Maggie

On 9/26/2015 8:47 PM, Muggles wrote:

Then again, isn't a car supposed to show a little bit of use?

*Use*, not "signs that someone got in and then OUT of it"!

Isn't that "use"?

Opening and closing a door would probably not fit with *most*
folks' idea of use!

"Wow! Why are you selling that vehicle for such a low price? What sort
of mileage does it have?"
"Milagee? *none*! *BUT*, I've opened and closed the doors 372,928 times!"