On 9/23/2015 11:16 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/23/2015 8:51 PM, Muggles wrote:

I've met "old timers" who were visibly envious of the excitement
I would express in my work. Or, the technologies that I was
exploring. They'd long since traded away that sense of adventure
for "job security"... and, now, were reduced to more mundane sorts
of work: the equivalent of ditch diggers. (very well paid ditch
diggers!)

Sounds like a 'thinking outside of the box' kind of mindset. Love it!

There are certain "types" that I characterize with this anecdote:
Ages ago, primitive man invented the wheel. It was SQUARE with
a small hole in the center for an axle on which it would rotate.
The conveyances that they created with these were, naturally,
"rough riding".

Over time, the wheels would wear and become rounded. At which
point, they would be promptly replaced with *new*, SQUARE WHEELS!



Makes you wonder about new products today that don't really work all
that great in the beginning.

--
Maggie

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 04:34:32 -0400, look wrote:

On 09/24/2015 02:16 AM, wrote:
One of the down sides of W/7 for me is it will not talk to the W/98
machine.
In XP it is seamless.

It can be done but is a bit tricky.
Google "windows 7 to windows 98 networking" (without the quotes)


The best solution for me though was to buy my own network storage device.

http://www.amazon.com/Cloud-WDBCTL00.../dp/B00EVVGAFI

That might be a good solution for net storage but it won't do much for
my scanner ;-)

I have a mirrored pair on one of my machines that maintains my common
files. I had one of those "toasters" but it was far from trouble free.
To start with it required a driver on every machine that used it and
that was bugware.

On 9/24/2015 7:43 AM, Muggles wrote:
On 9/23/2015 11:16 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/23/2015 8:51 PM, Muggles wrote:

I've met "old timers" who were visibly envious of the excitement
I would express in my work. Or, the technologies that I was
exploring. They'd long since traded away that sense of adventure
for "job security"... and, now, were reduced to more mundane sorts
of work: the equivalent of ditch diggers. (very well paid ditch
diggers!)

Sounds like a 'thinking outside of the box' kind of mindset. Love it!

There are certain "types" that I characterize with this anecdote:
Ages ago, primitive man invented the wheel. It was SQUARE with
a small hole in the center for an axle on which it would rotate.
The conveyances that they created with these were, naturally,
"rough riding".

Over time, the wheels would wear and become rounded. At which
point, they would be promptly replaced with *new*, SQUARE WHEELS!

Makes you wonder about new products today that don't really work all
that great in the beginning.

The trend is to let the customer "debug" the product. Yet, many
products never actually reflect those "detected bugs" back into
their refinement. I.e., buy an early version, get the bugs
that came with it forever!

So called "rapid development", "incremental development", etc.
have replaced the traditional "waterfall" approach: specification,
implementation, test/verification.

One wonders if the same folks advocating this development style would
be happy if their DaVinci surgical robot was *deployed* with such
softwa "Have you installed TODAY's software updates yet? BEFORE
my scheduled surgery????"

On 9/24/2015 10:08 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/24/2015 7:43 AM, Muggles wrote:
On 9/23/2015 11:16 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/23/2015 8:51 PM, Muggles wrote:

I've met "old timers" who were visibly envious of the excitement
I would express in my work. Or, the technologies that I was
exploring. They'd long since traded away that sense of adventure
for "job security"... and, now, were reduced to more mundane sorts
of work: the equivalent of ditch diggers. (very well paid ditch
diggers!)

Sounds like a 'thinking outside of the box' kind of mindset. Love it!

There are certain "types" that I characterize with this anecdote:
Ages ago, primitive man invented the wheel. It was SQUARE with
a small hole in the center for an axle on which it would rotate.
The conveyances that they created with these were, naturally,
"rough riding".

Over time, the wheels would wear and become rounded. At which
point, they would be promptly replaced with *new*, SQUARE WHEELS!

Makes you wonder about new products today that don't really work all
that great in the beginning.

The trend is to let the customer "debug" the product. Yet, many
products never actually reflect those "detected bugs" back into
their refinement. I.e., buy an early version, get the bugs
that came with it forever!

So called "rapid development", "incremental development", etc.
have replaced the traditional "waterfall" approach: specification,
implementation, test/verification.

One wonders if the same folks advocating this development style would
be happy if their DaVinci surgical robot was *deployed* with such
softwa "Have you installed TODAY's software updates yet? BEFORE
my scheduled surgery????"


yikes!

A funny thing happened when I was in surgery waiting to be given the
anesthesia. The Dr's in the room needed the table lowered, and none of
them could figure out how to do it. Finally, one of the nurses in the
room walked over, hit a knob, and adjusted it in less than 3 seconds. I
had to laugh to myself (and out loud) that these highly educated Dr's
couldn't adjust a surgery table.

--
Maggie

On 9/24/2015 9:53 AM, Muggles wrote:

A funny thing happened when I was in surgery waiting to be given the
anesthesia. The Dr's in the room needed the table lowered, and none of
them could figure out how to do it. Finally, one of the nurses in the
room walked over, hit a knob, and adjusted it in less than 3 seconds. I
had to laugh to myself (and out loud) that these highly educated Dr's
couldn't adjust a surgery table.

I had a lover who was a nurse. She would rant endlessly about how
bad/inept the doctors were! Mistaken orders, Rx errors, etc.
And, this is what you would EXPECT them to GET RIGHT!

When looking at new cars, I was annoyed at how many questions that
I asked stuff under the hood were met with blank stares.
Cripes, this is YOUR PRODUCT! Don't you KNOW IT?? What do you do
all day when there are more salespeople than customers? Play
Solitaire?? Aren't you interested in your product enough to
quiz one of the techs in the service department about those
things that you're ignorant of?

frown

As a customer, I could care less about how many silly awards your
car company has won. There are all sorts of awards essentially designed
so EVERYONE wins something! Tell me something specific about *this*
vehicle. Something in which *I* have expressed an interest...

As the modified subject line says, what follows is pure technobabble...

On 9/24/2015 7:56 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 04:34:32 -0400, look wrote:

On 09/24/2015 02:16 AM, wrote:
One of the down sides of W/7 for me is it will not talk to the W/98
machine.
In XP it is seamless.

It can be done but is a bit tricky.
Google "windows 7 to windows 98 networking" (without the quotes)


The best solution for me though was to buy my own network storage device.

http://www.amazon.com/Cloud-WDBCTL00.../dp/B00EVVGAFI

That might be a good solution for net storage but it won't do much for
my scanner ;-)

I have a mirrored pair on one of my machines that maintains my common
files. I had one of those "toasters" but it was far from trouble free.
To start with it required a driver on every machine that used it and
that was bugware.

I've given up on COTS NAS boxen. They all tend to be "closed" solutions
(even those built on FOSS software). A good test is to crash a volume
(after having made an offline backup!) and see how painful and successful
recovering the volume will be! Then, crash the *appliance* (i.e., imagine
the *box* has died) and trying to recover the volume contents on "something
else". So, *when* either of these scenarios manifest, you'll know
what sort of nightmare you'll encounter! (Hint: rebuilding a multi-TB
array can be frighteningly slow -- especially on the underpowered
hardware often used for these appliances!)

Instead, I've been designing a "distributed NAS/RAID" system. I use a
set of Optiplex FX160's:
http://gallery.techarena.in/data/513/Dell_FX160_1.JPG
running headless and diskless. External (portable!) USB drives act as the
persistent stores. I PXE boot a custom OS/userland that turns them into
appliances.

This allows me to serve files via a wide number of protocols: SMB/CIFS,
NFS, FTP, HTTP, etc. So, the stores are just seen as bytes -- they
don't care if they are accessed from a DOS machine, Windows, OS/X,
UN*X, etc.

Daemons running on the boxes (more than one box could be online at any
given time, obviously) catalog the contents of the attached volumes.
Filename, "container" (which may be a directory *or* the name of an
archive "file" -- or, even an archive within an archive!), size,
MD5 fingerprint, date of modification, etc. are cataloged and maintained
on an RDBMS.

From this, the system can (automatically) determine equivalences; file
X on volume Y in container Z is another instance of file A on volume
B in container C.

A daemon periodically walks through the filesystem verifying each file
is accessible and HAS NOT BEEN CORRUPTED (i.e., it's computed MD5/size
agrees with its *stored* MD5/size). So, a user knows that a file is
still present (RDBMS catalogs the names of existing files; if a file
has gone missing, it will exist in the RDBMS but not on the associated
volume in the specified container!). AND, knows that it's contents are
still intact -- even if he hasn't tried to access the file recently!
(the daemon has done so for him!).

The equivalence relationships allow the system to recover a lost file
though this may require human intervention (e.g., if the backup copy
exists on another volume attached to a different host that isn't currently
powered up, then the user must perform those steps!).

It's not designed to be a highly *performant* solution but, rather,
automate what a user would do in an ad hoc manner to preserve large
quantities of information without having to herd them into a
single appliance:
"Crap! My copy of RinTinTin is trashed! Where do I have *a*
backup squirreled away? Let me drag out that disk and find
the backup. Then, refresh my "original" while I am at it
to ensure that I have at least N copies to fall back on!"

On 9/23/2015 11:20 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 21:16:03 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 9/23/2015 8:51 PM, Muggles wrote:

I've met "old timers" who were visibly envious of the excitement
I would express in my work. Or, the technologies that I was
exploring. They'd long since traded away that sense of adventure
for "job security"... and, now, were reduced to more mundane sorts
of work: the equivalent of ditch diggers. (very well paid ditch diggers!)

Sounds like a 'thinking outside of the box' kind of mindset. Love it!

There are certain "types" that I characterize with this anecdote:
Ages ago, primitive man invented the wheel. It was SQUARE with
a small hole in the center for an axle on which it would rotate.
The conveyances that they created with these were, naturally,
"rough riding".

Over time, the wheels would wear and become rounded. At which
point, they would be promptly replaced with *new*, SQUARE WHEELS!


That sounds like Microsoft's business plan.

I had this over my desk

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/Tireswing.jpg

Mine is a modest plaque that says:
"Please don't straighten out the mess in my room. You'll confuse
me and screw up my whole world..."

On 9/24/2015 2:42 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/24/2015 9:53 AM, Muggles wrote:

A funny thing happened when I was in surgery waiting to be given the
anesthesia. The Dr's in the room needed the table lowered, and none of
them could figure out how to do it. Finally, one of the nurses in the
room walked over, hit a knob, and adjusted it in less than 3 seconds. I
had to laugh to myself (and out loud) that these highly educated Dr's
couldn't adjust a surgery table.

I had a lover who was a nurse. She would rant endlessly about how
bad/inept the doctors were! Mistaken orders, Rx errors, etc.
And, this is what you would EXPECT them to GET RIGHT!

When looking at new cars, I was annoyed at how many questions that
I asked stuff under the hood were met with blank stares.
Cripes, this is YOUR PRODUCT! Don't you KNOW IT?? What do you do
all day when there are more salespeople than customers? Play
Solitaire?? Aren't you interested in your product enough to
quiz one of the techs in the service department about those
things that you're ignorant of?

frown

As a customer, I could care less about how many silly awards your
car company has won. There are all sorts of awards essentially designed
so EVERYONE wins something! Tell me something specific about *this*
vehicle. Something in which *I* have expressed an interest...

Sounds reasonable to me! I've come across salesman who could sell, but
it wasn't because they really knew anything about their product.

--
Maggie

On 9/24/2015 2:40 PM, Muggles wrote:

As a customer, I could care less about how many silly awards your
car company has won. There are all sorts of awards essentially designed
so EVERYONE wins something! Tell me something specific about *this*
vehicle. Something in which *I* have expressed an interest...

Sounds reasonable to me! I've come across salesman who could sell, but
it wasn't because they really knew anything about their product.

Smoke and mirrors. Ego stroking. etc.

If you think carefully about what you are doing and what they are
saying, it's relatively easy to see the "curtain" hiding Oz.

I can understand a shoe salesman not knowing much about the
shoes he/she sells (what is there to know besides price, size,
etc?). But, something as big, complex and expensive as a
motor vehicle seems to justify knowing more than the number
of *wheels* it has! ("Um, I'll have to get back to you on
that... Hey, Jim... do you know how many wheels are on
this vehicle? I've got a customer who wants to know...")

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 13:14:23 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

As the modified subject line says, what follows is pure technobabble...

On 9/24/2015 7:56 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 04:34:32 -0400, look wrote:

On 09/24/2015 02:16 AM, wrote:
One of the down sides of W/7 for me is it will not talk to the W/98
machine.
In XP it is seamless.

It can be done but is a bit tricky.
Google "windows 7 to windows 98 networking" (without the quotes)


The best solution for me though was to buy my own network storage device.

http://www.amazon.com/Cloud-WDBCTL00.../dp/B00EVVGAFI

That might be a good solution for net storage but it won't do much for
my scanner ;-)

I have a mirrored pair on one of my machines that maintains my common
files. I had one of those "toasters" but it was far from trouble free.
To start with it required a driver on every machine that used it and
that was bugware.

I've given up on COTS NAS boxen. They all tend to be "closed" solutions
(even those built on FOSS software).

I have lost 2 drives in my mirrored set over the years and recovery
was pretty painless. I get a message that a drive has failed. I swap
out the bad one (you could hot swap them buy why bother)
Power up and the RAID controller sees the drive and restores it while
you are off doing other things. I am not sure how long it takes but
the next time I look things are fine.
I also keep an image of my C: from a fresh load and periodically after
that.
It is the ultimate "System Restore" that gets around hardware failures
and the worst viruses.
The "data" drives are backed up many times, including drives in a
cabinet

"Don Y" wrote in message
...
I can understand a shoe salesman not knowing much about the
shoes he/she sells (what is there to know besides price, size,
etc?). But, something as big, complex and expensive as a
motor vehicle seems to justify knowing more than the number
of *wheels* it has! ("Um, I'll have to get back to you on
that... Hey, Jim... do you know how many wheels are on
this vehicle? I've got a customer who wants to know...")


The way the country is going I bet not one in 100 , maybe 1000 know enough
to ask anything about a car other than how much is the down payment, and how
much a month.
The same for most other large priced items. The color is probably the most
important thing.

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 16:40:57 -0500, Muggles wrote:

On 9/24/2015 2:42 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/24/2015 9:53 AM, Muggles wrote:

A funny thing happened when I was in surgery waiting to be given the
anesthesia. The Dr's in the room needed the table lowered, and none of
them could figure out how to do it. Finally, one of the nurses in the
room walked over, hit a knob, and adjusted it in less than 3 seconds. I
had to laugh to myself (and out loud) that these highly educated Dr's
couldn't adjust a surgery table.

I had a lover who was a nurse. She would rant endlessly about how
bad/inept the doctors were! Mistaken orders, Rx errors, etc.
And, this is what you would EXPECT them to GET RIGHT!

When looking at new cars, I was annoyed at how many questions that
I asked stuff under the hood were met with blank stares.
Cripes, this is YOUR PRODUCT! Don't you KNOW IT?? What do you do
all day when there are more salespeople than customers? Play
Solitaire?? Aren't you interested in your product enough to
quiz one of the techs in the service department about those
things that you're ignorant of?

frown

As a customer, I could care less about how many silly awards your
car company has won. There are all sorts of awards essentially designed
so EVERYONE wins something! Tell me something specific about *this*
vehicle. Something in which *I* have expressed an interest...

Sounds reasonable to me! I've come across salesman who could sell, but
it wasn't because they really knew anything about their product.

As we discussed before, my wife has a lot of sales experience. She
says people only have two things that make them buy, love or fear.
You either make them love your product or make them afraid not to buy
it.
If you watch the TV ads you see both concepts in action, usually
trying to tap into both emotions.

On 9/24/2015 3:42 PM, wrote:

I've given up on COTS NAS boxen. They all tend to be "closed" solutions
(even those built on FOSS software).

I have lost 2 drives in my mirrored set over the years and recovery
was pretty painless. I get a message that a drive has failed. I swap
out the bad one (you could hot swap them buy why bother)
Power up and the RAID controller sees the drive and restores it while
you are off doing other things. I am not sure how long it takes but
the next time I look things are fine.

How large are your mirrors? E.g., my music archive is a bit larger than
1TB (plus another 1TB for its mirror); my "software" (purchased) archive
is about 2TB (with a 2TB copy); the historical archive for the
database used in my current project is 3TB (so a 3TB duplicate); etc.
Each of my workstations has at least 1T spinning ("working storage").

Rebuilding a complete mirror of any one drive takes a *long* time.

My USB approach is actually much worse (in terms of potential
rebuild time) because it is USB-based. But, putting drives *in*
a machine leaves me trapped with that particular type of
machine. E.g., I have SATA, SAS, SCA, SCSI-W and PATA drives...
which should I "standardize" on?

I also keep an image of my C: from a fresh load and periodically after
that.
It is the ultimate "System Restore" that gets around hardware failures
and the worst viruses.
The "data" drives are backed up many times, including drives in a
cabinet

I image each system as I build it. E.g., after installing the OS.
After installing drivers. After installing updates. After installing
"core utilities" (like archivers, compressors, etc.). After installing
the applications. Then, finally, after configuring the applications.

So, I can roll back to an arbitrary point in the build process and
"start over" from that point. (I keep a typewritten log of the
build steps *in* the image so I can see what I did to get to a
particular point; includes any license activations, etc. so I
don't have to revisit the original media unnecessarily -- ISO's
kept in that 2T archive)

This is particularly useful with Windows machines. But, also
handy with the other boxen that I use -- too hard to keep track
of all the little details required for each system, otherwise!

I have two laptops that are configured to automatically restore
themselves from a custom image that I hide on a hidden "partition".
These are handy for on-line work: any infestation goes away as
soon as I reboot.

On 9/24/2015 3:55 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

The way the country is going I bet not one in 100 , maybe 1000 know enough
to ask anything about a car other than how much is the down payment, and how
much a month.

That's probably true. But, if the only question will be those pertaining
to color and payments, there's no need for a sales droid! You could
design a vending machine to handle those requests!

As a salesman, knowing about your product gives you things to talk
about that can highlight its assets and differentiate it from the
competition.

I did a lot of research before we looked at each vehicle that we
considered in our search. It was embarassing to have to correct
salespeople about how certain features operated, etc.

We also tended to notice a lot of details that salesfolks either
didn't notice or chose to ignore. E.g., we found all of the Subaru
SUV-ish products "imposed" on the legroom of the passenger in a
way that made it very uncomfortable for either of us to occupy that
seat. On a repeat test drive, SWMBO sat in the passenger seat and
complained that she was uncompfortable. Having sat in that spot
on the first test drive (different model vehicle, same problem),
I immediately told her what to look for -- how she was being
forced to sit: "Oh, my!"

It was unfortunate as I really liked the layout of the engine compartment
in those vehicles (given that *I* would be doing all the maintenance
work). But, we quickly ruled them out solely because of this
"seating problem".

The same for most other large priced items. The color is probably the most
important thing.

It is actually the first or second question that we were asked.
The other being related to financing, our budget, etc. Amazing
how many salespeople were unable to get past this issue! "We'll
be paying cash for anything you have on your lot. Your job is
to convince us that we should buy one of YOUR vehicles instead
of one of the vehicles from any of your competitors that line
the street, here..."

On 9/24/2015 4:46 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/24/2015 2:40 PM, Muggles wrote:

As a customer, I could care less about how many silly awards your
car company has won. There are all sorts of awards essentially designed
so EVERYONE wins something! Tell me something specific about *this*
vehicle. Something in which *I* have expressed an interest...

Sounds reasonable to me! I've come across salesman who could sell, but
it wasn't because they really knew anything about their product.

Smoke and mirrors. Ego stroking. etc.

If you think carefully about what you are doing and what they are
saying, it's relatively easy to see the "curtain" hiding Oz.

A while back we went looking for cars and found a subaru that was close
to something I'd want to drive. They dealership wanted a specific
price, but I wanted to pay a different amount. When we sat down to talk
numbers they told me the price was already on the car, and then I told
them how much I was willing to pay for it. The sale man looked at me
and told me that was impossible, but he'd get his manager to come talk
with me. The manager told me the same thing the salesman said about the
price being rock solid on the car, and I told the manager what I was
willing to pay for it. They both looked at me like "well if you want
THIS car you'll pay what we're asking." I looked at them and said, "OK.
Thanks for your time." I got up and walked out of the building and
left the lot. You should have seen the looks on their faces. They
could have sold me the car at my price, but they lost a potential
customer because they weren't willing to come down on it even a little
bit. I've got no problem walking away from a purchase. They thought
they had a sale because I liked the car.

I can understand a shoe salesman not knowing much about the
shoes he/she sells (what is there to know besides price, size,
etc?). But, something as big, complex and expensive as a
motor vehicle seems to justify knowing more than the number
of *wheels* it has! ("Um, I'll have to get back to you on
that... Hey, Jim... do you know how many wheels are on
this vehicle? I've got a customer who wants to know...")


I guess it's pretty bad if the salesman can't answer easy questions!

--
Maggie

On 9/24/2015 6:04 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 16:40:57 -0500, Muggles wrote:

On 9/24/2015 2:42 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/24/2015 9:53 AM, Muggles wrote:

A funny thing happened when I was in surgery waiting to be given the
anesthesia. The Dr's in the room needed the table lowered, and none of
them could figure out how to do it. Finally, one of the nurses in the
room walked over, hit a knob, and adjusted it in less than 3 seconds. I
had to laugh to myself (and out loud) that these highly educated Dr's
couldn't adjust a surgery table.

I had a lover who was a nurse. She would rant endlessly about how
bad/inept the doctors were! Mistaken orders, Rx errors, etc.
And, this is what you would EXPECT them to GET RIGHT!

When looking at new cars, I was annoyed at how many questions that
I asked stuff under the hood were met with blank stares.
Cripes, this is YOUR PRODUCT! Don't you KNOW IT?? What do you do
all day when there are more salespeople than customers? Play
Solitaire?? Aren't you interested in your product enough to
quiz one of the techs in the service department about those
things that you're ignorant of?

frown

As a customer, I could care less about how many silly awards your
car company has won. There are all sorts of awards essentially designed
so EVERYONE wins something! Tell me something specific about *this*
vehicle. Something in which *I* have expressed an interest...

Sounds reasonable to me! I've come across salesman who could sell, but
it wasn't because they really knew anything about their product.

As we discussed before, my wife has a lot of sales experience. She
says people only have two things that make them buy, love or fear.
You either make them love your product or make them afraid not to buy
it.
If you watch the TV ads you see both concepts in action, usually
trying to tap into both emotions.


Interesting.

--
Maggie

On 9/24/2015 8:20 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/24/2015 3:55 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:

The way the country is going I bet not one in 100 , maybe 1000 know
enough
to ask anything about a car other than how much is the down payment,
and how
much a month.

That's probably true. But, if the only question will be those pertaining
to color and payments, there's no need for a sales droid! You could
design a vending machine to handle those requests!

As a salesman, knowing about your product gives you things to talk
about that can highlight its assets and differentiate it from the
competition.

I did a lot of research before we looked at each vehicle that we
considered in our search. It was embarassing to have to correct
salespeople about how certain features operated, etc.

We also tended to notice a lot of details that salesfolks either
didn't notice or chose to ignore. E.g., we found all of the Subaru
SUV-ish products "imposed" on the legroom of the passenger in a
way that made it very uncomfortable for either of us to occupy that
seat. On a repeat test drive, SWMBO sat in the passenger seat and
complained that she was uncompfortable. Having sat in that spot
on the first test drive (different model vehicle, same problem),
I immediately told her what to look for -- how she was being
forced to sit: "Oh, my!"

It was unfortunate as I really liked the layout of the engine compartment
in those vehicles (given that *I* would be doing all the maintenance
work). But, we quickly ruled them out solely because of this
"seating problem".

I've ruled out several cars just because the drivers seat was
uncomfortable, and the door was so close to the drivers seat that you
couldn't adjust the seat unless the door was open. What were they
thinking with such a design?

[...]
--
Maggie

"Muggles" wrote in message
...
A while back we went looking for cars and found a subaru that was close
to something I'd want to drive. They dealership wanted a specific
price, but I wanted to pay a different amount. When we sat down to talk
numbers they told me the price was already on the car, and then I told
them how much I was willing to pay for it. The sale man looked at me
and told me that was impossible, but he'd get his manager to come talk
with me. The manager told me the same thing the salesman said about the
price being rock solid on the car, and I told the manager what I was
willing to pay for it. They both looked at me like "well if you want
THIS car you'll pay what we're asking." I looked at them and said, "OK.
Thanks for your time." I got up and walked out of the building and
left the lot. You should have seen the looks on their faces. They
could have sold me the car at my price, but they lost a potential
customer because they weren't willing to come down on it even a little
bit. I've got no problem walking away from a purchase. They thought
they had a sale because I liked the car.


YOu left out the important part. Did you go somewhere else and get the car
or did you get something else ?

I was going to buy a new car that was one year old at the end of the season
and the credit union had a deal they would beat anyones interist by a
certain percent down to a certain percent. I had worked out a deal on a car
and then asked them if they could match the credit union rate. They could
not. I asked them for a paper saying they would give me a rate near the
minimum of the credit union. They told me they could not and it would be
dishonest.. Said so long to them and went to a dealer with a new car just
like the other but a current model for almost the same price and got the
paper I wanted.

At that time I had the money to buy the car, but the CDs were at 5 % and the
credit was slightly less than 4 %.

On 9/25/2015 7:27 AM, Muggles wrote:

It was unfortunate as I really liked the layout of the engine compartment
in those vehicles (given that *I* would be doing all the maintenance
work). But, we quickly ruled them out solely because of this
"seating problem".

I've ruled out several cars just because the drivers seat was
uncomfortable, and the door was so close to the drivers seat that you
couldn't adjust the seat unless the door was open. What were they
thinking with such a design?

Yes. We ended up choosing between our "finalists" based primarily
on how good *both* seats felt. I.e., *one* of us will be seated in
the passenger seat so it had better be AS COMFORTABLE as the
driver's seat!

We gave some (token) consideration to the back seat, as well. But,
we rarely drive folks around so this wasn't going to be a deal-breaker
(or maker).

Many of the cars that we *thought* would be in our final list before
we started the selection process failed to clear that bar: their seats
were very uncomfortable (even though we spend ~250 hours ANNUALLY in
the car). Others failed the "visibility" criteria (c'mon, guys...
don't you *see* that pillar blocking your vision?? Are your eyes
located on a different body part than mine??)

On 9/25/2015 9:50 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Muggles" wrote in message
...
A while back we went looking for cars and found a subaru that was close
to something I'd want to drive. They dealership wanted a specific
price, but I wanted to pay a different amount. When we sat down to talk
numbers they told me the price was already on the car, and then I told
them how much I was willing to pay for it. The sale man looked at me
and told me that was impossible, but he'd get his manager to come talk
with me. The manager told me the same thing the salesman said about the
price being rock solid on the car, and I told the manager what I was
willing to pay for it. They both looked at me like "well if you want
THIS car you'll pay what we're asking." I looked at them and said, "OK.
Thanks for your time." I got up and walked out of the building and
left the lot. You should have seen the looks on their faces. They
could have sold me the car at my price, but they lost a potential
customer because they weren't willing to come down on it even a little
bit. I've got no problem walking away from a purchase. They thought
they had a sale because I liked the car.


YOu left out the important part. Did you go somewhere else and get the car
or did you get something else ?

I still haven't purchased a car, yet. I'm waiting until I find what I
really want for the price I want to pay for it.

I was going to buy a new car that was one year old at the end of the season
and the credit union had a deal they would beat anyones interist by a
certain percent down to a certain percent. I had worked out a deal on a car
and then asked them if they could match the credit union rate. They could
not. I asked them for a paper saying they would give me a rate near the
minimum of the credit union. They told me they could not and it would be
dishonest.. Said so long to them and went to a dealer with a new car just
like the other but a current model for almost the same price and got the
paper I wanted.

At that time I had the money to buy the car, but the CDs were at 5 % and the
credit was slightly less than 4 %.

We can get great rates at our credit union, too, but my old van still
runs and it's paid for, and I haven't found the car that has what I want
on it, yet. I'm patient, and will buy the car when I find the one that
has what I want.

--
Maggie

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 18:12:26 -0700, Don Y
wrote:



How large are your mirrors?

I have a 1TB mirrored set that is a little less than half full
I didn't think there was a terabyte of music out there ;-)
I have over 6000 songs and it is a lot smaller than a TB.
Movies are the ones that gobble up bytes.

Rebuilding a complete mirror of any one drive takes a *long* time.

It happens in the background so I don't care.

My USB approach is actually much worse (in terms of potential
rebuild time) because it is USB-based. But, putting drives *in*
a machine leaves me trapped with that particular type of
machine. E.g., I have SATA, SAS, SCA, SCSI-W and PATA drives...
which should I "standardize" on?


These days SATA seems to be the way everyone is going.
I have a few SCSI drives but they are tiny compared to newer drives
and I don't use them.
The last couple machines I bought don't even have PATA ports. I still
have a stack of drives tho

I also keep an image of my C: from a fresh load and periodically after
that.
It is the ultimate "System Restore" that gets around hardware failures
and the worst viruses.
The "data" drives are backed up many times, including drives in a
cabinet

I image each system as I build it. E.g., after installing the OS.
After installing drivers. After installing updates. After installing
"core utilities" (like archivers, compressors, etc.). After installing
the applications. Then, finally, after configuring the applications.

So, I can roll back to an arbitrary point in the build process and
"start over" from that point. (I keep a typewritten log of the
build steps *in* the image so I can see what I did to get to a
particular point; includes any license activations, etc. so I
don't have to revisit the original media unnecessarily -- ISO's
kept in that 2T archive)

This is particularly useful with Windows machines. But, also
handy with the other boxen that I use -- too hard to keep track
of all the little details required for each system, otherwise!

I have two laptops that are configured to automatically restore
themselves from a custom image that I hide on a hidden "partition".
These are handy for on-line work: any infestation goes away as
soon as I reboot.

On 9/25/2015 9:55 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/25/2015 7:27 AM, Muggles wrote:

It was unfortunate as I really liked the layout of the engine
compartment
in those vehicles (given that *I* would be doing all the maintenance
work). But, we quickly ruled them out solely because of this
"seating problem".

I've ruled out several cars just because the drivers seat was
uncomfortable, and the door was so close to the drivers seat that you
couldn't adjust the seat unless the door was open. What were they
thinking with such a design?

Yes. We ended up choosing between our "finalists" based primarily
on how good *both* seats felt. I.e., *one* of us will be seated in
the passenger seat so it had better be AS COMFORTABLE as the
driver's seat!

We gave some (token) consideration to the back seat, as well. But,
we rarely drive folks around so this wasn't going to be a deal-breaker
(or maker).

Many of the cars that we *thought* would be in our final list before
we started the selection process failed to clear that bar: their seats
were very uncomfortable (even though we spend ~250 hours ANNUALLY in
the car). Others failed the "visibility" criteria (c'mon, guys...
don't you *see* that pillar blocking your vision?? Are your eyes
located on a different body part than mine??)

yeah! If the seats in the front aren't comfortable for both myself and
hubby, it's a deal breaker for me. If the controls are too complicated,
it's another deal breaker. I once drove some Ford new model and they
said you had to go to a class to learn how to operate all the bells and
whistles it had. DEAL BREAKER! I want to commute to work and around
town, not learn how to program an SUV. I don't need complicated in
order to commute. Give me comfortable seats, reliability, heat and AC,
a radio that plays local stations, maybe a CD player, I like power
steering, windows, and seats, and a light colored interior. What's up
with offering a black interior as the ONLY choice??

--
Maggie

On 9/24/2015 4:04 PM, wrote:

Sounds reasonable to me! I've come across salesman who could sell, but
it wasn't because they really knew anything about their product.

As we discussed before, my wife has a lot of sales experience. She
says people only have two things that make them buy, love or fear.
You either make them love your product or make them afraid not to buy
it.
If you watch the TV ads you see both concepts in action, usually
trying to tap into both emotions.

This is how *all* people "manipulate" others! Consider political
ads, political speeches, trials (legal system), etc. Most people
are *so* easily manipulated by emotion that any *reasoned*
argument is a wasted effort -- they are far less capable of
analytic thought and far more susceptible to "animal instinct".

[notice how little "substance" is present in political discourse?
news reporting? etc.]

I contend that this is the reason behind most "buyer's remorse":
the emotional manipulator wears off (after the decision is finalized!)
and then the slower, calculating subconscious starts reexamining
the transaction in the cool light of day! Often, with regret.

If you, instead, apply *reason* to your decisions (not just purchases),
then there is a greater chance that your decision will stand the test
of time *without* those nagging uncertainties/regrets.

We've owned our vehicle for a couple of months, now. And, become
*happier* with our (reasoned) decision with each drive we take:
"Gee, they really thought this feature out a lot better than
those other vendors did!"

"Wow! Can you imagine how uncomfortable this ride would have
been in that (other) vehicle?"

Of course, the true test will be ten years hence...

On 9/25/2015 8:17 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 18:12:26 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

How large are your mirrors?

I have a 1TB mirrored set that is a little less than half full
I didn't think there was a terabyte of music out there ;-)

My archive is 96K/24b lossless. Far more "expensive" than MP3's
(even 320Kb MP3's are small by comparison). I "play" music
through "network speakers" throughout the house (like
streaming audio, in a sense, but higher fidelity and precision)
Rather than transcoding MP3's "on the fly", I've ripped or
transcoded all my music "one time" and stored it in this
"bigger" format (disk space is cheap!). This cuts down on
the processing required in the audio server and the "network
speakers".

I have over 6000 songs and it is a lot smaller than a TB.
Movies are the ones that gobble up bytes.

Rebuilding a complete mirror of any one drive takes a *long* time.

It happens in the background so I don't care.

You are vulnerable to a second failure while the mirror is being
rebuilt. What if it dscovers the "mirror copy" is corrupt while
reading it to recreate the "primary"?

E.g., RAID5 arrays that incur an error often become irrecoverable
before the array can be rebuilt (admittedly, more costly than
rebuilding a simple mirror/RAID1)

This is why I have daemons running to verify each file is intact
whenever a volume is "spinning" -- so the window in which it
can fail is reduced. It also ensures *every* copy of a file
(which can be more than one on *a* spindle or more than one
spindle!) is checked for integrity -- its not "use the backup
if the primary fails (and HOPE the backup hasn't failed
BEFORE this but wasn't noticed)"

My USB approach is actually much worse (in terms of potential
rebuild time) because it is USB-based. But, putting drives *in*
a machine leaves me trapped with that particular type of
machine. E.g., I have SATA, SAS, SCA, SCSI-W and PATA drives...
which should I "standardize" on?

These days SATA seems to be the way everyone is going.

In the future, there will be something else. My archive spans more
than 30 years...

I have a few SCSI drives but they are tiny compared to newer drives
and I don't use them.
The last couple machines I bought don't even have PATA ports. I still
have a stack of drives tho

I image machines onto *bare* SATA drives (typically 80 or 160G).
I use a USB "dock" to connect the bare drive to the machine in
question (when creating or restoring the image). This lets me
keep many "image drives" in the same sort of space that
2.5" external USB laptop drives might occupy.

[I like one machine per drive so I don't have to put
much structure in the filesystem on the drive:
/machineA
./firstImage
./secondImage
/machineB
./firstImage
./secondImage
vs. an adhesive label ON the drive ("MachineA") with:
./firstImage
./secondImage

On 9/25/2015 8:23 AM, Muggles wrote:
yeah! If the seats in the front aren't comfortable for both myself and
hubby, it's a deal breaker for me.

SWMBO does most "solo" driving. I drive very infrequently. Most of my
time spent in the car is weekly shopping trips. In previous vehicle,
she hated passenger seat (comfort) so ended up driving most of the
time. New car has essentially "equivalent" seats in passenger and
driver spots.

If the controls are too complicated,
it's another deal breaker. I once drove some Ford new model and they
said you had to go to a class to learn how to operate all the bells and
whistles it had. DEAL BREAKER! I want to commute to work and around
town, not learn how to program an SUV. I don't need complicated in
order to commute.

As I design these sorts of things for a living, I'm not intimidated
by them. Rather, see them as learning experiences: why did they make
this design choice instead of some *other*?

I find very few "big" disagreements with their chosen implementation.
Most noteworthy is NOT being able to "backup" your settings to a
thumbdrive. Imagine what happens when you accidentally delete -- or
*lose* -- all the addresses, phone numbers, etc. that you've
meticulously "programmed" into the car/GPS! Likewise, in the
21st century, it doesn't seem too far fetched to let me *edit*
this sort of stuff on a PC in the comfort of my home -- instead
of trying to type stuff in on a touch panel seated in a hot
garage!

I addressed the "how to backup the OTHER settings" issue by creating
a "cheat sheet" that enumerates all the settings, their FACTORY DEFAULT
choices, lists of POSSIBLE choices and *my* choice (using bold and
italics to make the visual distinctions). I laminatated these and
stuffed them in a seat back pocket -- so I don't have to remember
where I "filed" them!

Give me comfortable seats, reliability, heat and AC,
a radio that plays local stations, maybe a CD player, I like power
steering, windows, and seats, and a light colored interior.

We found MANY seats to be very uncomfortable. The Lexus saleswoman
was chagrined that we spent a mere *minutes* at her dealership!
We'd sit in a vehicle, then get up, close the door and walk away -- in
search of another vehicle that *might* have more comfortable seats.
(we didn't find any, there!)

What's up with offering a black interior as the ONLY choice??

We encountered lots of black-on-black offerings. Totally ridiculous
in an environment where it's sunny 360+ days per year and over 100F
on anywhere between 60 and 100 of those days!

[We likewise lamented the sun/moonroof issue but typically had no choice
in that "option" for the sorts of vehicles in which we were interested.]

On Friday, September 25, 2015 at 10:27:19 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 9/24/2015 4:04 PM, wrote:

Sounds reasonable to me! I've come across salesman who could sell, but
it wasn't because they really knew anything about their product.

As we discussed before, my wife has a lot of sales experience. She
says people only have two things that make them buy, love or fear.
You either make them love your product or make them afraid not to buy
it.
If you watch the TV ads you see both concepts in action, usually
trying to tap into both emotions.

This is how *all* people "manipulate" others! Consider political
ads, political speeches, trials (legal system), etc. Most people
are *so* easily manipulated by emotion that any *reasoned*
argument is a wasted effort -- they are far less capable of
analytic thought and far more susceptible to "animal instinct".

[notice how little "substance" is present in political discourse?
news reporting? etc.]

I contend that this is the reason behind most "buyer's remorse":
the emotional manipulator wears off (after the decision is finalized!)
and then the slower, calculating subconscious starts reexamining
the transaction in the cool light of day! Often, with regret.

If you, instead, apply *reason* to your decisions (not just purchases),
then there is a greater chance that your decision will stand the test
of time *without* those nagging uncertainties/regrets.

We've owned our vehicle for a couple of months, now. And, become
*happier* with our (reasoned) decision with each drive we take:
"Gee, they really thought this feature out a lot better than
those other vendors did!"

"Wow! Can you imagine how uncomfortable this ride would have
been in that (other) vehicle?"

Of course, the true test will be ten years hence...

You mentioned manipulation of people through emotional means. I've noticed that Liberals use emotion to advance their agenda against Conservatives who lean more toward logic and reason but now Liberals are really upset that Conservatives are appropriating Liberal's emotional tactic with the story about Planned Parenthood selling baby body parts. Liberals are trying to counter Conservatives with emotion on that subject and failing which serves them right. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Emotional Monster

On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 10:23:01 -0500, Muggles wrote:

yeah! If the seats in the front aren't comfortable for both myself and
hubby, it's a deal breaker for me.

These days cars have become such a commodity item that seating comfort
may be the main thing I look for. There isn't a "Chevy" anymore. You
just get a GM and the same parts may be in any car in the line.
I had a Chrysler with a Mitsubisi engine in it.
Now I am in a Honda Prelude and a Ford truck
OTOH my newest vehicle is 15 years old. My wife has a fairly new
Lincoln but I am not that "driven". A car is just a piece of metal
that gets me up to the store. I used to drive 50,000+ a year when I
was working and I am over the car thing.

On 9/25/2015 9:15 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
You mentioned manipulation of people through emotional means. I've noticed
that Liberals use emotion to advance their agenda against Conservatives who
lean more toward logic and reason but now Liberals are really upset that
Conservatives are appropriating Liberal's emotional tactic with the story
about Planned Parenthood selling baby body parts. Liberals are trying to
counter Conservatives with emotion on that subject and failing which serves
them right. ^_^

Shirley, you jest. Have you listened to Talk Radio for the past few
DECADES? Ever listen to how much *partial* information the talking heads
spout from the right? Where's the *rest* of the video that the right
considers so *outrageous*? Where's the rush to see the other side of the
story?

Subpoena the producers of the video. Drag out all the original footage.
See what was cut. See the context behind each "editorial decision"
that was made (and subsequently hidden) from the public.

We hear the Right decrying "secret details" of iran negotiations
(over which our government had no direct control). And, all sorts
of outcry over "deleted emails". Yet, strangely silent on the
details BEHIND said video.

We don't here anyone clamoring for tracking, logging and transcribing all
TELEPHONE conversations among members of congress and their constituents.
No clamor to insist they all use "government approved telephones" for
all their voice transactions; recording devices in their offices, etc.

We noticed how quickly the call (by republicans in congress) for term
limits disappeared when they gained control over that chamber! I
guess it isn't a good idea when it risks cutting into *your*
control? Will they, once again, complain about term limits if
they see Congress leaning away from their control?

"Every (unborn) life is sacred" Until, of course, it is *born*!
Then, screw it -- it's not *our* problem! No, we don't want to
promote better healthcare for pregnant mothers (to ensure a healthy
"unborn child" comes into the world). We don't want to pay for
childcare, pre-K, etc. I guess that life really *isn't* that
important? "Family Values" isn't the same as "Valuing the Family"!

When they appear so lopsided in their logic, they lose all credibility
and appear to just be acting in a partisan manner -- "I'm doing what's
right to advance MY cause!" For me, this makes it relatively easy
to dismiss their arguments (regardless of whether they are on the
left *or* on the right).

I have friends that are far right and far left. With most of them,
i can engage them in genuine discourse. They aren't "closed minded,
cartoon people" but, actually, rational beings that can hold a
thought and come to logical deductions *from* that thought.

We recently were chatting with a (Right) couple who were visibly
upset over this KY clerk and how her "religious freedoms" were
being compromised. "Well, she doesn't *have* to take/keep the
job! She could dig ditches, wait on tables, be a stay at home
Mom, etc. No one is forcing her to take this job whose requirements
should have been known, a priori!"

This was met with angry silence.

"What if she was a he (see below); and, he was a muslim. Would it be
OK for him to refuse to register any property transactions to *women*?
Or, refuse to issue drivers' licenses to them?"

This sort of thing caused figurative smoke to pour out from their
ears! I.e., how can we possibly defend the SAME RIGHTS extended
to a *muslim*?? We hate/fear them!!

So, they rationalize some *imaginary* difference between THEIR opinions
on the KY clerk issue and this hypothetical muslim replacement. When
tasked (by me) to put that difference into *words*, they're unable to!
As such, how am I supposed to evaluate the quality of their argument?
It looks purely capricious -- driven entirely by emotion (fear).

We have a neighbor who is a bigot. This is the concensus of the entire
neighborhood. Some folks rationalize his behavior as a consequence of
his upbringing, age, etc. But, *all* agree he is a bigot. Many have
flatly (not in anger) stated this to his face -- which leaves him
red-faced (no one wants to *admit* to being a bigot -- especially bigots!)

He is particularly vocal on the "mexicans" situation (we are close to
the MX border). "Deport them all", etc.

Yet, we ALL notice that he never hires "white people" to work around
his house. Does he not notice this pattern in his hiring? Does he
not consider his PERSONAL consequences if they "were all deported"?
It's become almost a game to ask him if he checked the papers of
his latest hiree BEFORE hiring!

*Honestly* (i.e., I pose this as a serious, not rhetorical, question),
how can I consider any of his arguments as rational (i.e., worthy of
serious consideration) given this demonstrated inconsistency in his
thoughts vs. actions?

If a news outlet consistently gives one side of a story, how could
I *limit* my "news sources" to just that outlet? Do I "shop around"
to find someone who says WHAT I WANT TO HEAR? And, blissfully and
stubbornly ignore The Truth (not some proclaimed truth but the
"real" truth, whatever that might be)?

On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 08:48:19 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 9/25/2015 8:17 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 18:12:26 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

How large are your mirrors?

I have a 1TB mirrored set that is a little less than half full
I didn't think there was a terabyte of music out there ;-)

My archive is 96K/24b lossless. Far more "expensive" than MP3's
(even 320Kb MP3's are small by comparison). I "play" music
through "network speakers" throughout the house (like
streaming audio, in a sense, but higher fidelity and precision)
Rather than transcoding MP3's "on the fly", I've ripped or
transcoded all my music "one time" and stored it in this
"bigger" format (disk space is cheap!). This cuts down on
the processing required in the audio server and the "network
speakers".

I have over 6000 songs and it is a lot smaller than a TB.
Movies are the ones that gobble up bytes.

Rebuilding a complete mirror of any one drive takes a *long* time.

It happens in the background so I don't care.

You are vulnerable to a second failure while the mirror is being
rebuilt. What if it dscovers the "mirror copy" is corrupt while
reading it to recreate the "primary"?

E.g., RAID5 arrays that incur an error often become irrecoverable
before the array can be rebuilt (admittedly, more costly than
rebuilding a simple mirror/RAID1)

This is why I have daemons running to verify each file is intact
whenever a volume is "spinning" -- so the window in which it
can fail is reduced. It also ensures *every* copy of a file
(which can be more than one on *a* spindle or more than one
spindle!) is checked for integrity -- its not "use the backup
if the primary fails (and HOPE the backup hasn't failed
BEFORE this but wasn't noticed)"

My USB approach is actually much worse (in terms of potential
rebuild time) because it is USB-based. But, putting drives *in*
a machine leaves me trapped with that particular type of
machine. E.g., I have SATA, SAS, SCA, SCSI-W and PATA drives...
which should I "standardize" on?

These days SATA seems to be the way everyone is going.

In the future, there will be something else. My archive spans more
than 30 years...

I have a few SCSI drives but they are tiny compared to newer drives
and I don't use them.
The last couple machines I bought don't even have PATA ports. I still
have a stack of drives tho

I image machines onto *bare* SATA drives (typically 80 or 160G).
I use a USB "dock" to connect the bare drive to the machine in
question (when creating or restoring the image). This lets me
keep many "image drives" in the same sort of space that
2.5" external USB laptop drives might occupy.

[I like one machine per drive so I don't have to put
much structure in the filesystem on the drive:
/machineA
./firstImage
./secondImage
/machineB
./firstImage
./secondImage
vs. an adhesive label ON the drive ("MachineA") with:
./firstImage
./secondImage

I don't have much that is not backed up on another machine. The
mirrored set is just for convenience.
My media files are on all of the media machines (4 PCs right now.)
That is the bulk of the material. The rest of the stuff is pretty
small and easy to keep backed up. A lot of it is in my "cloud" (my web
site) buried in a password protected FTP directory you can't navigate
to without the URL.

On 9/25/2015 10:19 AM, Muggles wrote:


A while back we went looking for cars and found a subaru that was close
to something I'd want to drive. They dealership wanted a specific
price, but I wanted to pay a different amount. When we sat down to talk
numbers they told me the price was already on the car, and then I told
them how much I was willing to pay for it. The sale man looked at me
and told me that was impossible, but he'd get his manager to come talk
with me. The manager told me the same thing the salesman said about the
price being rock solid on the car, and I told the manager what I was
willing to pay for it. They both looked at me like "well if you want
THIS car you'll pay what we're asking." I looked at them and said, "OK.
Thanks for your time." I got up and walked out of the building and
left the lot. You should have seen the looks on their faces. They
could have sold me the car at my price, but they lost a potential
customer because they weren't willing to come down on it even a little
bit. I've got no problem walking away from a purchase. They thought
they had a sale because I liked the car.

Had a similar situation with my daughter. My graduation gift to her was
the down payment,t he rest on here. She had a job. She went and looked
at a car, had a price, etc. I went later with her to make the deal, but
I asked, what is the real price going to be? Not only did the saleman
not move, my daughter was willing to pay.
She was nearly in tears "it my mney can't I buy what I want?" Then I
remembered the dealer 10 miles down the road. Walked in, same exact car
was there. Just give me a good price and I'll buy it was my answer.
Saved $600. and daughter got a real life lesson. She laughed when the
first salesman called her the next day.

On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 09:19:55 -0500, Muggles wrote:

A while back we went looking for cars and found a subaru that was close
to something I'd want to drive. They dealership wanted a specific
price, but I wanted to pay a different amount. When we sat down to talk
numbers they told me the price was already on the car, and then I told
them how much I was willing to pay for it. The sale man looked at me
and told me that was impossible, but he'd get his manager to come talk
with me. The manager told me the same thing the salesman said about the
price being rock solid on the car, and I told the manager what I was
willing to pay for it. They both looked at me like "well if you want
THIS car you'll pay what we're asking." I looked at them and said, "OK.
Thanks for your time." I got up and walked out of the building and
left the lot. You should have seen the looks on their faces. They
could have sold me the car at my price, but they lost a potential
customer because they weren't willing to come down on it even a little
bit. I've got no problem walking away from a purchase. They thought
they had a sale because I liked the car.

Car salesmen are like many other crooks. The prey upon people. The
first clue is when "I have to run this by my manager!" He goes back
to see him/her, they have a few jokes and come back with the same song
and dance - nothing changes.

_Confessions of a Car Salesman_ (series)

http://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/confessions-of-a-car-salesman.html

Check and see if Sam's Club or Cost co still have a program for buying
a car. I used Sam's in 1994, walked into the dealer, bought the
Bronco I wanted -- no fuss, no mess. Had a check from my credit union
in hand and signed the papers. Drove home.

On Friday, September 25, 2015 at 11:56:00 AM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
On 9/25/2015 9:15 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:
You mentioned manipulation of people through emotional means. I've noticed
that Liberals use emotion to advance their agenda against Conservatives who
lean more toward logic and reason but now Liberals are really upset that
Conservatives are appropriating Liberal's emotional tactic with the story
about Planned Parenthood selling baby body parts. Liberals are trying to
counter Conservatives with emotion on that subject and failing which serves
them right. ^_^

Shirley, you jest. Have you listened to Talk Radio for the past few
DECADES? Ever listen to how much *partial* information the talking heads
spout from the right? Where's the *rest* of the video that the right
considers so *outrageous*? Where's the rush to see the other side of the
story?

Subpoena the producers of the video. Drag out all the original footage.
See what was cut. See the context behind each "editorial decision"
that was made (and subsequently hidden) from the public.

We hear the Right decrying "secret details" of iran negotiations
(over which our government had no direct control). And, all sorts
of outcry over "deleted emails". Yet, strangely silent on the
details BEHIND said video.

We don't here anyone clamoring for tracking, logging and transcribing all
TELEPHONE conversations among members of congress and their constituents.
No clamor to insist they all use "government approved telephones" for
all their voice transactions; recording devices in their offices, etc.

We noticed how quickly the call (by republicans in congress) for term
limits disappeared when they gained control over that chamber! I
guess it isn't a good idea when it risks cutting into *your*
control? Will they, once again, complain about term limits if
they see Congress leaning away from their control?

"Every (unborn) life is sacred" Until, of course, it is *born*!
Then, screw it -- it's not *our* problem! No, we don't want to
promote better healthcare for pregnant mothers (to ensure a healthy
"unborn child" comes into the world). We don't want to pay for
childcare, pre-K, etc. I guess that life really *isn't* that
important? "Family Values" isn't the same as "Valuing the Family"!

When they appear so lopsided in their logic, they lose all credibility
and appear to just be acting in a partisan manner -- "I'm doing what's
right to advance MY cause!" For me, this makes it relatively easy
to dismiss their arguments (regardless of whether they are on the
left *or* on the right).

I have friends that are far right and far left. With most of them,
i can engage them in genuine discourse. They aren't "closed minded,
cartoon people" but, actually, rational beings that can hold a
thought and come to logical deductions *from* that thought.

We recently were chatting with a (Right) couple who were visibly
upset over this KY clerk and how her "religious freedoms" were
being compromised. "Well, she doesn't *have* to take/keep the
job! She could dig ditches, wait on tables, be a stay at home
Mom, etc. No one is forcing her to take this job whose requirements
should have been known, a priori!"

This was met with angry silence.

"What if she was a he (see below); and, he was a muslim. Would it be
OK for him to refuse to register any property transactions to *women*?
Or, refuse to issue drivers' licenses to them?"

This sort of thing caused figurative smoke to pour out from their
ears! I.e., how can we possibly defend the SAME RIGHTS extended
to a *muslim*?? We hate/fear them!!

So, they rationalize some *imaginary* difference between THEIR opinions
on the KY clerk issue and this hypothetical muslim replacement. When
tasked (by me) to put that difference into *words*, they're unable to!
As such, how am I supposed to evaluate the quality of their argument?
It looks purely capricious -- driven entirely by emotion (fear).

We have a neighbor who is a bigot. This is the concensus of the entire
neighborhood. Some folks rationalize his behavior as a consequence of
his upbringing, age, etc. But, *all* agree he is a bigot. Many have
flatly (not in anger) stated this to his face -- which leaves him
red-faced (no one wants to *admit* to being a bigot -- especially bigots!)

He is particularly vocal on the "mexicans" situation (we are close to
the MX border). "Deport them all", etc.

Yet, we ALL notice that he never hires "white people" to work around
his house. Does he not notice this pattern in his hiring? Does he
not consider his PERSONAL consequences if they "were all deported"?
It's become almost a game to ask him if he checked the papers of
his latest hiree BEFORE hiring!

*Honestly* (i.e., I pose this as a serious, not rhetorical, question),
how can I consider any of his arguments as rational (i.e., worthy of
serious consideration) given this demonstrated inconsistency in his
thoughts vs. actions?

If a news outlet consistently gives one side of a story, how could
I *limit* my "news sources" to just that outlet? Do I "shop around"
to find someone who says WHAT I WANT TO HEAR? And, blissfully and
stubbornly ignore The Truth (not some proclaimed truth but the
"real" truth, whatever that might be)?

OMG! Don't want have a stroke fella. You must understand that you should never take anything I write about human relations seriously. I know that all politicians are full of excrement and are self serving even The Pope. Yes, I do believe The Pope is a politician. I was tortured by nuns as a small boy so I can pick on The Pope. It's fun to argue with The Left and The Right because I don't claim allegiance to either since I tend to run along the Z axis. What me and my brothers say about politics is,"I'm not a Republican, Republicans disgust me but Democrats are special, they horrify me." Liberals get so upset when Conservatives use emotion to promote some cause because Liberals don't know how to do anything else. Of course, this is just from my own observations spanning more than a half century. I noticed the patterns even when I was a kid in the 1950's. At the age of 6, I decided that all grownups were full of crap, they have yet to disappointed me. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Undefined Monster

On 9/25/2015 11:06 AM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 09:19:55 -0500, Muggles wrote:

A while back we went looking for cars and found a subaru that was close
to something I'd want to drive. They dealership wanted a specific
price, but I wanted to pay a different amount. When we sat down to talk
numbers they told me the price was already on the car, and then I told
them how much I was willing to pay for it. The sale man looked at me
and told me that was impossible, but he'd get his manager to come talk
with me. The manager told me the same thing the salesman said about the
price being rock solid on the car, and I told the manager what I was
willing to pay for it. They both looked at me like "well if you want
THIS car you'll pay what we're asking." I looked at them and said, "OK.
Thanks for your time." I got up and walked out of the building and
left the lot. You should have seen the looks on their faces. They
could have sold me the car at my price, but they lost a potential
customer because they weren't willing to come down on it even a little
bit. I've got no problem walking away from a purchase. They thought
they had a sale because I liked the car.

Car salesmen are like many other crooks. The prey upon people. The
first clue is when "I have to run this by my manager!" He goes back
to see him/her, they have a few jokes and come back with the same song
and dance - nothing changes.

_Confessions of a Car Salesman_ (series)

http://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/confessions-of-a-car-salesman.html

Check and see if Sam's Club or Cost co still have a program for buying
a car. I used Sam's in 1994, walked into the dealer, bought the
Bronco I wanted -- no fuss, no mess. Had a check from my credit union
in hand and signed the papers. Drove home.

Costco's program isn't very good. Invoice + ~$600, IIRC (varies
with make/model). Usually pretty easy to beat that.

On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 11:26:39 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 9/25/2015 11:06 AM, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 09:19:55 -0500, Muggles wrote:

A while back we went looking for cars and found a subaru that was close
to something I'd want to drive. They dealership wanted a specific
price, but I wanted to pay a different amount. When we sat down to talk
numbers they told me the price was already on the car, and then I told
them how much I was willing to pay for it. The sale man looked at me
and told me that was impossible, but he'd get his manager to come talk
with me. The manager told me the same thing the salesman said about the
price being rock solid on the car, and I told the manager what I was
willing to pay for it. They both looked at me like "well if you want
THIS car you'll pay what we're asking." I looked at them and said, "OK.
Thanks for your time." I got up and walked out of the building and
left the lot. You should have seen the looks on their faces. They
could have sold me the car at my price, but they lost a potential
customer because they weren't willing to come down on it even a little
bit. I've got no problem walking away from a purchase. They thought
they had a sale because I liked the car.

Car salesmen are like many other crooks. The prey upon people. The
first clue is when "I have to run this by my manager!" He goes back
to see him/her, they have a few jokes and come back with the same song
and dance - nothing changes.

_Confessions of a Car Salesman_ (series)

http://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/confessions-of-a-car-salesman.html

Check and see if Sam's Club or Cost co still have a program for buying
a car. I used Sam's in 1994, walked into the dealer, bought the
Bronco I wanted -- no fuss, no mess. Had a check from my credit union
in hand and signed the papers. Drove home.

Costco's program isn't very good. Invoice + ~$600, IIRC (varies
with make/model). Usually pretty easy to beat that.

I'd have to look at the file folder for my Bronco. MSRP was ~ $29,000.
Walked in with a $25,000 CU check. IIRC, I paid less than Invoice.
YMMV

I'm about to sell the same Bronco (original owner) for ~$2,500 -- then
buy guns and ammo!!

Point is, knowing what the discount clubs offer.

On 9/25/2015 11:12 AM, Uncle Monster wrote:

OMG! Don't want have a stroke fella.

I'm not at all "worked up" over this. Rather, disappointed that the
Conservatives have made themselves meaningless by their extremism. I
want an informed choice -- not two-to-four word catch phrases (Family
Values, Just Say No (to drugs), Compassionate Conservatism, 3-strikes,
etc.).

Someone like Kerry gets up and tries to explain something that is nuanced
(as MOST THINGS IN LIFE ARE) and he's ridiculed for being longwinded. His
service records is besmirched -- yet his opponent was notably *absent* during
the same period (even from his stateside Guard duty!).

It's hard to take this sort of thing as serious, informed dialog.
Rather, just stoking fears and prejudices of some group that you're
hoping will put you over the top. And, if you have to change your
stance next week or next year to court some other group (anyone looked
into Trumps record on these issues??), so be it.

[What will the Right do if all theses folks take the Pope's words
to heart and start pushing for controls on greenhouse emissions?
What constituency will they court, then? Or, will they suddenly
change their stance on global warming? etc. What do they *believe*
in and STAND FOR -- besides their own reelection activities?]

When NOT given a choice, I have two options: don't vote *or* vote
for the folks who appear to have the most "content" in their
discourse. I don't like being forced into such a predictable voting
strategy. And, NOT voting is simply not an option, for me.

[I have *many* conservative beliefs but am forced to compromise them
because the Conservative Alternative is a cartoon. And, seems to be
headed even further into the fringe. Notice the resemblance in
Bozo the Clown and Trump's hairpieces? : ]

You must understand that you should
never take anything I write about human relations seriously. I know that all
politicians are full of excrement and are self serving even The Pope. Yes, I
do believe The Pope is a politician.

Of *course* he is! If he was truly an adherent of his professed faith,
how could he shelter/countenance/not "hand over" the records and staff
under his control for prosecution sex abuses? I guess he's decided
that lip service is all he can afford??

Wash a few feet, kiss a few babies, waive to the crowd and all is forgiven?

[I was raised RC, spent a fair bit of time studying the bible, church
sponsored boy scout troop, religious awards, etc. Then, started listening
to what was being said -- along with preachings of other religions -- before
coming to the rational decision that they were all BS. All just attempts
to control people, resources, etc.]

We have a friend who is devout RC. It is always interesting to see how
she addresses the sex abuse issue when *we* bring it up (she wants to
pretend it doesn't exist). Yet, is intent on leaving her considerable
estate *to* the Church. I have no qualms about tossing barbs her way:
"Maybe they can use *that* to pay off some of the sex abuse claims?
Or, as a cushion for FUTURE/ONGOING abuses??"

[I have no problems with similar "assaults" on the mindless beliefs/dogma
of my leftwing and rightwing friends. "Listen to yourself! Don't you see
the flaws/inconsistencies in your thinking? If its rational, then
PLEASE enlighten me as to how you reconcile these differences -- other
than some arbitrary 'because that's what I think'!"]

I was tortured by nuns as a small boy
so I can pick on The Pope. It's fun to argue with The Left and The Right
because I don't claim allegiance to either since I tend to run along the Z
axis. What me and my brothers say about politics is,"I'm not a Republican,
Republicans disgust me but Democrats are special, they horrify me." Liberals
get so upset when Conservatives use emotion to promote some cause because
Liberals don't know how to do anything else.

How so? Is the climate warming issue some vast Liberal Conspiracy?

Are women's health issues something that some RADICALS are espousing?
(note the "radical islamists" aren't running around promoting
GREATER freedoms! Sort of like the Christian Conservatives, here,
clinging to their notion of Right and imposing it on others as LAW.
But, if likened to Sharia Law, then they shudder -- like my bigotted
neighbor shudders when he's *called* a bigot!)

Are the liberals preventing folks from *worshipping* according
to their own perversions? Are they burning down churches? Arresting
pastors?? Revoking tax exempt statuses?? (i.e., where's this "grand
assault on religion" that I hear so much about?)

Where are all the voter fraud cases? Why not propose a national ID?
Then, use that for *all* things that should be tracked/regulated/licensed
as UNFORGEABLE PROOF (hey, if its a good enough credential for VOTING,
it surely should be good enough to get a passport, buy a gun, register
a car, certify a driver's license, etc.). Or, do we only want to pick
and choose the issues that are important to ONE group to "solve"
(with an imperfect solution).

Of course, this is just from my
own observations spanning more than a half century. I noticed the patterns
even when I was a kid in the 1950's. At the age of 6, I decided that all
grownups were full of crap, they have yet to disappointed me. ^_^

People are inherently insecure and greedy. That greed is usually aimed
at bolstering their sense of security (it may be for non-monetary
things -- power, recognition, publicity, etc.). Keeping people insecure
just fosters more abuses of The System -- whatever System that may be!

On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 11:06:33 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 09:19:55 -0500, Muggles wrote:

A while back we went looking for cars and found a subaru that was close
to something I'd want to drive. They dealership wanted a specific
price, but I wanted to pay a different amount. When we sat down to talk
numbers they told me the price was already on the car, and then I told
them how much I was willing to pay for it. The sale man looked at me
and told me that was impossible, but he'd get his manager to come talk
with me. The manager told me the same thing the salesman said about the
price being rock solid on the car, and I told the manager what I was
willing to pay for it. They both looked at me like "well if you want
THIS car you'll pay what we're asking." I looked at them and said, "OK.
Thanks for your time." I got up and walked out of the building and
left the lot. You should have seen the looks on their faces. They
could have sold me the car at my price, but they lost a potential
customer because they weren't willing to come down on it even a little
bit. I've got no problem walking away from a purchase. They thought
they had a sale because I liked the car.

Car salesmen are like many other crooks. The prey upon people. The
first clue is when "I have to run this by my manager!" He goes back
to see him/her, they have a few jokes and come back with the same song
and dance - nothing changes.

_Confessions of a Car Salesman_ (series)

http://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/confessions-of-a-car-salesman.html

Check and see if Sam's Club or Cost co still have a program for buying
a car. I used Sam's in 1994, walked into the dealer, bought the
Bronco I wanted -- no fuss, no mess. Had a check from my credit union
in hand and signed the papers. Drove home.


My favorite is "what do I have to do to put you in this car today"

Just be sure you have an answer and stick to it.

Back in the olden days 75% of sticker was a good starting point and
you wanted him to throw in the dealer prep items for free.
Work from there.

On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 11:26:39 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

Costco's program isn't very good. Invoice + ~$600, IIRC (varies
with make/model). Usually pretty easy to beat that.

Yeah, "invoice" is a fantasy anyway. They pay less than that.

On 9/25/2015 10:03 AM, wrote:
[I like one machine per drive so I don't have to put
much structure in the filesystem on the drive:
/machineA
./firstImage
./secondImage
/machineB
./firstImage
./secondImage
vs. an adhesive label ON the drive ("MachineA") with:
./firstImage
./secondImage

I don't have much that is not backed up on another machine. The
mirrored set is just for convenience.

Each of my machines is unique in terms of applications and
"working files". E.g., my "hardware" workstation has
applications to draw schematics, layout circuit boards,
design mechanical assemblies, plastic molds, etc. -- plus
the *large!) libraries that each of these require.

Beyond that, the working files for whatever project I
am undertaking at the current time are present, there
(so the applications can access them "locally")

If I want to write a specification for that hardware,
I need to fire up the "Documentation" workstation -- which
has tools to prepare documentation (text, graphics,
animations, etc.).

It's only when something (schematic, PCB layout, specification,
etc.) is done that it moves to a publicly accessible location
(e.g., NAS, file server, etc.).

Things like my music library were once "working files" on
the "Multimedia" workstation (I have *lots* of computers, each
for a specific use, specific set of peripherals, etc) while they
were being recoded in the current 96k/24b format, tagged,
indexed, etc. Once "finished", they got moved off to that
"publicly accessible" location (which may actually be a different
physical device than any mentioned above -- the distinction
lies in the sense that the content is accessible by other hosts
from that point!)

My media files are on all of the media machines (4 PCs right now.)
That is the bulk of the material. The rest of the stuff is pretty
small and easy to keep backed up. A lot of it is in my "cloud" (my web
site) buried in a password protected FTP directory you can't navigate
to without the URL.

I keep ISO images of every CD/DVD of purchased software I've
accumulated over the years. Some "products" are many GB (e.g.,
my sound libraries are about 500G, my clipart library is more
than 1TB, etc.) of CD/DVD images (600MB per CD, many GB per DVD)

I can, for example, recreate boot floppies for a DOS 3.31 with
a few mouse clicks. Or, burn a copy of my original W7 DVD
for a *particular* machine (they seem to NOT be identical
from one machine to another) to reinstall W7 on that machine...
then, discard teh DVD that I just burned (cheap, disposable
media) sae with the knowledge that I can recreate it again
if I need it at a later date.

I've been trying to set up a "document server" to let me
read any of the "paperwork" that I have archived (books,
standards, specifications, source code, etc.) on a
tablet (electronic book?) but have been stymied by the
incompatible file formats (leave them as is and install
several different "readers" on the tablet? Or, convert
them to a common format -- which? -- so that a single
CONSISTENT reader interface is presented??)

After all these years, I have accumulated a lot of "stuff"
so am always looking for ways to reduce the space/volume
that it requires (e.g., digitizing all of my old tax
returns, bank statements, etc.) This trades "bookshelf
space" for *disk* space (and, of course, disks fail much
more frequently than *books* so a backup of everything is
prudent!)

On 9/25/2015 11:58 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 11:26:39 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

Costco's program isn't very good. Invoice + ~$600, IIRC (varies
with make/model). Usually pretty easy to beat that.

Yeah, "invoice" is a fantasy anyway. They pay less than that.

Dealer holdbacks, financing "kickbacks", etc. It's all a game to set
*expectations* in the mind of the buyer. Common sense tells you those
expectations are in the *dealers'* favor!

On Fri, 25 Sep 2015 14:56:26 -0400, wrote:

My favorite is "what do I have to do to put you in this car today"

Note the loaded questions. They try to put questions back on you and
not answer. Play and prey on the unknowing or those unwilling to get
on their case for direct answers. To many people are "politically
correct" so they can't get tough.