On Fri, 1 Aug 2014 04:54:14 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Ok here is the logic
The manufacturer probably specified a 50 amp breaker to reduce trips during the startup inrush. You all know an a/c has a large inrush current.
Now if you are using a 50 amp breaker you MUST use #6ga or larger wire to be safe and meet code.
The breaker and wire size must match to be safe.
But it does seem the directions were confusing re the number of conductors needed.
6-2 is three total conductors, 2 that carry current and one safety ground.

Mark
Unless flexible cord is used - it said 3 conductor - which COULD be
read either way. And many air conditioner installations do spec
flexible cable between the house (disconnect) and the unit.
And remember - if the unit draws a constant 26 amps, it is over-spec
for a 30 amp circuit (maximum 80% rated current for continuous use)

On Friday, August 1, 2014 11:41:20 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 1 Aug 2014 04:54:14 -0700 (PDT), wrote:



Ok here is the logic

The manufacturer probably specified a 50 amp breaker to reduce trips during the startup inrush. You all know an a/c has a large inrush current.

Now if you are using a 50 amp breaker you MUST use #6ga or larger wire to be safe and meet code.

The breaker and wire size must match to be safe.

But it does seem the directions were confusing re the number of conductors needed.

6-2 is three total conductors, 2 that carry current and one safety ground.



Mark

Unless flexible cord is used - it said 3 conductor - which COULD be

read either way.

No it can't. The ground is not referred to as a conductor, by code,
by the manufacturer, or by anyone who knows what they are doing. Go
look at a box of Romex. It's sold as 14/2, 14/3, with ground. That is
either two or three conductors plus ground.



And many air conditioner installations do spec

flexible cable between the house (disconnect) and the unit.


Please show us some examples, I've never seen one.




And remember - if the unit draws a constant 26 amps, it is over-spec

for a 30 amp circuit (maximum 80% rated current for continuous use)

Wrong again. The eqpt is marked for a circuit with a minimum ampacity
of 26A. A 30 Amp circuit exceeds that.

On Saturday, August 2, 2014 12:40:28 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 01 Aug 2014 23:34:13 -0400, wrote:



On Fri, 01 Aug 2014 00:32:34 -0400, wrote:



On Thu, 31 Jul 2014 20:25:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:



SMZ42H46ZOGX



When I look this up I do see where the manual says you need 6 ga wire

but it also says "Minimum circuit ampacity 26a" which would be 10

gauge copper according to the NEC. It really sounds like the chinese

book writer does not understand the electrical code.



Does the label on the outside unit say "26a" on the minimum circuit

ampacity line?

Maximum over current protection probably says "50a"

26 amps is more than 80% of 30 amps. Generally a circuit should not

excede 80% of the circuit protection rating (fuse or breaker - and I

assume wiring).



That is not what the label says or what it means.

If you look at the U/L marking guide, you will see the 80% is built

into that "minimum circuit ampacity"

+1

This is a specific piece of eqpt on a dedicated circuit. It's not
a circuit for receptacles. The rules are different. Just like a
previous poster thinks you can't have a 50A breaker on 8g wiring for
an AC, when you can, because the rules are different.



I bet the design FLA is more like 19-20a and the actual max you would

ever read with an amp probe is more like 15-16 in normal operation

They say strange numbers like "26a" to keep you out of 12ga which is

rated for 25a in the 60 and 75c column.

The marking guide and the label itself is clearly saying 10 ga copper.



Also, if I remember and read correctly, the

specification is for a "stranded" wire - which "generally" should be

sized up 1 size.



Cite that.

Table 310-16 does not make that distinction

Yes, I'd like to see that too. AFAIK, solid and stranded of
the same gauge have the same current carrying capacity, unless
this AC is connected to a 1Mhz power source, or similar where
skin effect comes into play.

wrote in :

26 amps is more than 80% of 30 amps. Generally a circuit should not
excede 80% of the circuit protection rating (fuse or breaker - and I
assume wiring).

Wrong. The 80% rule applies only to continuous loads.

You really should stop trying to give electrical advice.

wrote in :

And remember - if the unit draws a constant 26 amps, it is over-spec
for a 30 amp circuit (maximum 80% rated current for continuous use)

The term "continuous" has a clear, specific definition in the Code -- and an air conditioner
does not meet that definition.

You really should stop trying to give electrical advice.

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 00:40:28 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 01 Aug 2014 23:34:13 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 01 Aug 2014 00:32:34 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 31 Jul 2014 20:25:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

SMZ42H46ZOGX

When I look this up I do see where the manual says you need 6 ga wire
but it also says "Minimum circuit ampacity 26a" which would be 10
gauge copper according to the NEC. It really sounds like the chinese
book writer does not understand the electrical code.

Does the label on the outside unit say "26a" on the minimum circuit
ampacity line?
Maximum over current protection probably says "50a"
26 amps is more than 80% of 30 amps. Generally a circuit should not
excede 80% of the circuit protection rating (fuse or breaker - and I
assume wiring).

That is not what the label says or what it means.
If you look at the U/L marking guide, you will see the 80% is built
into that "minimum circuit ampacity"
I bet the design FLA is more like 19-20a and the actual max you would
ever read with an amp probe is more like 15-16 in normal operation
They say strange numbers like "26a" to keep you out of 12ga which is
rated for 25a in the 60 and 75c column.
The marking guide and the label itself is clearly saying 10 ga copper.

Also, if I remember and read correctly, the
specification is for a "stranded" wire - which "generally" should be
sized up 1 size.

Cite that.
Table 310-16 does not make that distinction
Where did I say code required it? I said it "generally should" - and
I'll stick to that. I like to see stranded power cords for high
amperage applications - like Generators and table saws- upsized one
size over what I would use with solid copper.

On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 14:05:32 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

And remember - if the unit draws a constant 26 amps, it is over-spec
for a 30 amp circuit (maximum 80% rated current for continuous use)

The term "continuous" has a clear, specific definition in the Code -- and an air conditioner
does not meet that definition.

You really should stop trying to give electrical advice.
OK - what does "continuous" mean? What minimum duty cycle is
required for it to be "continuous"? How long does the air conditioner
run on the hottest day of the year? Is the running current not
"continuous" in this case? Starting amps don't count. Do you KNOW what
the steady state running current of the AC unit in question is??

My assumption is the AC unit would draw 26 amps for more than 20 min
utes at a time, up to full time operation, it is to be connected with
a 3 conductor (including ground) flexible stranded cable.

Your assumptions are no more valid than mine, whatever they are -
unless you KNOW what current the unit draws and KNOW it will never
approach 100% duty cycle

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 10:36:24 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 05:51:37 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Saturday, August 2, 2014 12:40:28 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 01 Aug 2014 23:34:13 -0400, wrote:



On Fri, 01 Aug 2014 00:32:34 -0400, wrote:



On Thu, 31 Jul 2014 20:25:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:



SMZ42H46ZOGX



When I look this up I do see where the manual says you need 6 ga wire

but it also says "Minimum circuit ampacity 26a" which would be 10

gauge copper according to the NEC. It really sounds like the chinese

book writer does not understand the electrical code.



Does the label on the outside unit say "26a" on the minimum circuit

ampacity line?

Maximum over current protection probably says "50a"

26 amps is more than 80% of 30 amps. Generally a circuit should not

excede 80% of the circuit protection rating (fuse or breaker - and I

assume wiring).



That is not what the label says or what it means.

If you look at the U/L marking guide, you will see the 80% is built

into that "minimum circuit ampacity"

+1

This is a specific piece of eqpt on a dedicated circuit. It's not
a circuit for receptacles. The rules are different. Just like a
previous poster thinks you can't have a 50A breaker on 8g wiring for
an AC, when you can, because the rules are different.


Yup, you set a guy's hair on fire if his knowledge stops at the Time
Life "electric for dummies" book. There are places where you can have
12 gauge wire on a 50 and 14 on a 40. It is a common question on the
inspector tests.
(typical was, 1HP 120v, 16 FLA motor on a 40a breaker with 14ga
copper)



I bet the design FLA is more like 19-20a and the actual max you would

ever read with an amp probe is more like 15-16 in normal operation

They say strange numbers like "26a" to keep you out of 12ga which is

rated for 25a in the 60 and 75c column.

The marking guide and the label itself is clearly saying 10 ga copper.



Also, if I remember and read correctly, the

specification is for a "stranded" wire - which "generally" should be

sized up 1 size.



Cite that.

Table 310-16 does not make that distinction

Yes, I'd like to see that too. AFAIK, solid and stranded of
the same gauge have the same current carrying capacity, unless
this AC is connected to a 1Mhz power source, or similar where
skin effect comes into play.

Yup, the stranded is actually better if you start getting up in the
higher frequencies. You can see the effect at 400hz which used to be
pretty common in computer rooms. (back when they actually had real
computers in there) ;-)
The big 400hz cables were usually fine stranded.

If you look at table 8 you will see that the DC resistance of stranded
#10 is actually 0.03 ohms more than solid per 1000 feet but that is
insignificant for this calculation and the difference is a little less
at 60hz

Skin effect doesn't even begin to have any effect in residential or
normal commercial wiring. I know code does not require upsizing for
stranded wire - I never said it did. I said, generally one should use
one size heavier flexible cord than one would use for solid permanent
wiring. I stand by that. Flexible cable is submitted to a lot of
flexing which will eventually compromize some strands, increasing the
resistance. It is a good idea to use one size heavier cable than
"required", particularly when running close to the design current
limit for the cord.
In general practice, MOST people use a cord that is AT LEAST one size
too SMALL for the load.

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 11:02:16 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 14:05:32 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

And remember - if the unit draws a constant 26 amps, it is over-spec
for a 30 amp circuit (maximum 80% rated current for continuous use)

The term "continuous" has a clear, specific definition in the Code -- and an air conditioner
does not meet that definition.

You really should stop trying to give electrical advice.

Air conditioners are such a specific load that it really requires an
engineer to specify the circuit ampacity and over current protection.
That is why the U/L marking guide specifies this on the label.

Motor loads are subject to the 80% rule but that is 125% of the
nameplate FLA and you use table 310.16 to determine wire size, not
240.4(D)
And if the manufacturer(on the UL label) specifies #6 wire be used
for connection, it does NOT meet code if installed with #8 or #10

On Saturday, August 2, 2014 3:51:59 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 14:05:32 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller

wrote:



wrote in :



And remember - if the unit draws a constant 26 amps, it is over-spec

for a 30 amp circuit (maximum 80% rated current for continuous use)



The term "continuous" has a clear, specific definition in the Code -- and an air conditioner

does not meet that definition.



You really should stop trying to give electrical advice.

OK - what does "continuous" mean?

It would seem if you're giving out the advice, you should know that
no? And if not, googling "code definition continous load" should work.



What minimum duty cycle is

required for it to be "continuous"? How long does the air conditioner

run on the hottest day of the year? Is the running current not

"continuous" in this case? Starting amps don't count. Do you KNOW what

the steady state running current of the AC unit in question is??



My assumption is the AC unit would draw 26 amps for more than 20 min

utes at a time, up to full time operation, it is to be connected with

a 3 conductor (including ground) flexible stranded cable.



Your assumptions are no more valid than mine, whatever they are -

unless you KNOW what current the unit draws and KNOW it will never

approach 100% duty cycle

That doesn't matter, because per Gfre, all that has been taken into
account by the engineers who designed and rated the eqpt. The eqpt rating plate is what governs, it says a circuit with minimum ampacity of 26A,
which you then use to directly determine the wire size.

On Saturday, August 2, 2014 4:01:14 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 11:02:16 -0400, wrote:



On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 14:05:32 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller

wrote:



wrote in :



And remember - if the unit draws a constant 26 amps, it is over-spec

for a 30 amp circuit (maximum 80% rated current for continuous use)



The term "continuous" has a clear, specific definition in the Code -- and an air conditioner

does not meet that definition.



You really should stop trying to give electrical advice.



Air conditioners are such a specific load that it really requires an

engineer to specify the circuit ampacity and over current protection.

That is why the U/L marking guide specifies this on the label.



Motor loads are subject to the 80% rule but that is 125% of the

nameplate FLA and you use table 310.16 to determine wire size, not

240.4(D)

And if the manufacturer(on the UL label) specifies #6 wire be used

for connection, it does NOT meet code if installed with #8 or #10

Except of course that the manufacturer did not say #6 or any gauge on the
UL label. Nor have I ever seen gauge on a similar label. The governing data
on the eqpt label is the 26A, if he chooses to follow that. The manufacturer
stated #6 gauge in the install manual, which was obviously written by a buffoon, because they don't understand the difference between conductors and
grounds. The install instructions say that it's to be installed with
4 conductors and then they show only a 240V connection, no neutral, just like
you'd expect with any other air conditioner. So, following that, even
after correcting it to 3 conductors, plus ground, you'd have an extra
wire that goes nowhere. Would you follow that too?

That 3.7 ton AC would have to be the most inefficient piece of crap ever
made to need #6. It would be so inefficient, it couldn't meet the min
SEER required today. It also states in the spec that the rated input power
is 4600 watts. 4600 watts = 19 amps. There is nothing there that comes
close to needing 6 gauge wire.

On Saturday, August 2, 2014 3:58:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 10:36:24 -0400, wrote:



On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 05:51:37 -0700 (PDT), trader_4

wrote:



On Saturday, August 2, 2014 12:40:28 AM UTC-4, wrote:

On Fri, 01 Aug 2014 23:34:13 -0400, wrote:







On Fri, 01 Aug 2014 00:32:34 -0400, wrote:







On Thu, 31 Jul 2014 20:25:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:







SMZ42H46ZOGX







When I look this up I do see where the manual says you need 6 ga wire



but it also says "Minimum circuit ampacity 26a" which would be 10



gauge copper according to the NEC. It really sounds like the chinese



book writer does not understand the electrical code.







Does the label on the outside unit say "26a" on the minimum circuit



ampacity line?



Maximum over current protection probably says "50a"



26 amps is more than 80% of 30 amps. Generally a circuit should not



excede 80% of the circuit protection rating (fuse or breaker - and I



assume wiring).







That is not what the label says or what it means.



If you look at the U/L marking guide, you will see the 80% is built



into that "minimum circuit ampacity"



+1



This is a specific piece of eqpt on a dedicated circuit. It's not

a circuit for receptacles. The rules are different. Just like a

previous poster thinks you can't have a 50A breaker on 8g wiring for

an AC, when you can, because the rules are different.





Yup, you set a guy's hair on fire if his knowledge stops at the Time

Life "electric for dummies" book. There are places where you can have

12 gauge wire on a 50 and 14 on a 40. It is a common question on the

inspector tests.

(typical was, 1HP 120v, 16 FLA motor on a 40a breaker with 14ga

copper)







I bet the design FLA is more like 19-20a and the actual max you would



ever read with an amp probe is more like 15-16 in normal operation



They say strange numbers like "26a" to keep you out of 12ga which is



rated for 25a in the 60 and 75c column.



The marking guide and the label itself is clearly saying 10 ga copper.







Also, if I remember and read correctly, the



specification is for a "stranded" wire - which "generally" should be



sized up 1 size.







Cite that.



Table 310-16 does not make that distinction



Yes, I'd like to see that too. AFAIK, solid and stranded of

the same gauge have the same current carrying capacity, unless

this AC is connected to a 1Mhz power source, or similar where

skin effect comes into play.



Yup, the stranded is actually better if you start getting up in the

higher frequencies. You can see the effect at 400hz which used to be

pretty common in computer rooms. (back when they actually had real

computers in there) ;-)

The big 400hz cables were usually fine stranded.



If you look at table 8 you will see that the DC resistance of stranded

#10 is actually 0.03 ohms more than solid per 1000 feet but that is

insignificant for this calculation and the difference is a little less

at 60hz



Skin effect doesn't even begin to have any effect in residential or

normal commercial wiring. I know code does not require upsizing for

stranded wire - I never said it did. I said, generally one should use

one size heavier flexible cord than one would use for solid permanent

wiring. I stand by that. Flexible cable is submitted to a lot of

flexing which will eventually compromize some strands, increasing the

resistance.

You have your outside AC units swinging around in the breeze up
there in Canada? Around here, they *are* installed with permanent
wiring, not cords. And the cord reference is in the same lame
drawing, that was obviously written by a buffoon. They confuse
conductors with grounds and call for a 4 conductor cable. As I
already said, even if you allow that they really mean 3 conductors,
plus ground, it's still wrong. The drawing only shows two hots, ie
a normal 240V AC connection. So, following that, we should get a
big old honking 6 gauge 4 conductor stranded "cord". Then leave two
conductors unused. Then let;s call the inspector over and see how he
likes it.

Or we could use two #8 THWN stranded run inside liquidtight. Actually
per the eqpt label, you could use #10, but since the 26A is close to
the max for #10, I'd bump it up.




It is a good idea to use one size heavier cable than

"required", particularly when running close to the design current

limit for the cord.

Cable? Cord? Which is it now? Better rip out all your 14 gauge that's
on 15 amp breakers, make it 12 gauge.




In general practice, MOST people use a cord that is AT LEAST one size

too SMALL for the load.

In general practice around here, people don't install permanent,
outdoor AC eqpt with cords. And I've never seen a 3.7 ton AC unit
on #6 anything, cord, stranded, solid, etc.

On Saturday, August 2, 2014 3:33:07 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 00:40:28 -0400, wrote:



On Fri, 01 Aug 2014 23:34:13 -0400, wrote:



On Fri, 01 Aug 2014 00:32:34 -0400, wrote:



On Thu, 31 Jul 2014 20:25:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:



SMZ42H46ZOGX



When I look this up I do see where the manual says you need 6 ga wire

but it also says "Minimum circuit ampacity 26a" which would be 10

gauge copper according to the NEC. It really sounds like the chinese

book writer does not understand the electrical code.



Does the label on the outside unit say "26a" on the minimum circuit

ampacity line?

Maximum over current protection probably says "50a"

26 amps is more than 80% of 30 amps. Generally a circuit should not

excede 80% of the circuit protection rating (fuse or breaker - and I

assume wiring).



That is not what the label says or what it means.

If you look at the U/L marking guide, you will see the 80% is built

into that "minimum circuit ampacity"

I bet the design FLA is more like 19-20a and the actual max you would

ever read with an amp probe is more like 15-16 in normal operation

They say strange numbers like "26a" to keep you out of 12ga which is

rated for 25a in the 60 and 75c column.

The marking guide and the label itself is clearly saying 10 ga copper.



Also, if I remember and read correctly, the

specification is for a "stranded" wire - which "generally" should be

sized up 1 size.



Cite that.

Table 310-16 does not make that distinction

Where did I say code required it? I said it "generally should" - and

I'll stick to that. I like to see stranded power cords for high

amperage applications - like Generators and table saws- upsized one

size over what I would use with solid copper.

You see outside permanently mounted AC condenser/compressor units on
power cords much up there?

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 15:59:53 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 15:51:59 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 14:05:32 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

And remember - if the unit draws a constant 26 amps, it is over-spec
for a 30 amp circuit (maximum 80% rated current for continuous use)

The term "continuous" has a clear, specific definition in the Code -- and an air conditioner
does not meet that definition.

You really should stop trying to give electrical advice.
OK - what does "continuous" mean? What minimum duty cycle is
required for it to be "continuous"? How long does the air conditioner
run on the hottest day of the year? Is the running current not
"continuous" in this case? Starting amps don't count. Do you KNOW what
the steady state running current of the AC unit in question is??

Continuous is 3 hours in the NEC.


My assumption is the AC unit would draw 26 amps for more than 20 min
utes at a time, up to full time operation, it is to be connected with
a 3 conductor (including ground) flexible stranded cable.

Your assumptions are no more valid than mine, whatever they are -
unless you KNOW what current the unit draws and KNOW it will never
approach 100% duty cycle

It is really not even a factor here. The "minimum circuit ampacity" is
an engineered value based on that particular piece of equipment and
takes into account all applicable factors.
In this case a 10 gauge copper wire will fulfill that requirement.
So why does the instruction specify a #6??????
If the manufacturer's UL listing spec requires a #6, it doesn't meet
code to connect with a #10.

On Saturday, August 2, 2014 5:06:41 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 15:59:53 -0400, wrote:



On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 15:51:59 -0400, wrote:



On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 14:05:32 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller

wrote:



wrote in :



And remember - if the unit draws a constant 26 amps, it is over-spec

for a 30 amp circuit (maximum 80% rated current for continuous use)



The term "continuous" has a clear, specific definition in the Code -- and an air conditioner

does not meet that definition.



You really should stop trying to give electrical advice.

OK - what does "continuous" mean? What minimum duty cycle is

required for it to be "continuous"? How long does the air conditioner

run on the hottest day of the year? Is the running current not

"continuous" in this case? Starting amps don't count. Do you KNOW what

the steady state running current of the AC unit in question is??



Continuous is 3 hours in the NEC.





My assumption is the AC unit would draw 26 amps for more than 20 min

utes at a time, up to full time operation, it is to be connected with

a 3 conductor (including ground) flexible stranded cable.



Your assumptions are no more valid than mine, whatever they are -

unless you KNOW what current the unit draws and KNOW it will never

approach 100% duty cycle



It is really not even a factor here. The "minimum circuit ampacity" is

an engineered value based on that particular piece of equipment and

takes into account all applicable factors.

In this case a 10 gauge copper wire will fulfill that requirement.

So why does the instruction specify a #6??????

If the manufacturer's UL listing spec requires a #6, it doesn't meet

code to connect with a #10.

We don't have access to the UL listing spec. All we have are the eqpt
rating plate and one page of the install manual. That one page, was
obviously written by a complete buffoon. They call for #6 and in the
diagram call it a cord. How many outside AC condenser/compressor units
have you seen installed on cords?

And then they call for 4 conductor cord. Lets take that literally too.
So, we have 4 conductors and a ground? WTF? OK, whooops, I guess
they really meant 3 conductors plus ground. So we get a big honking
#6 cord, with 3 conductors plus ground. Whooops! They only show two conductors actually used, ie like you'd expect for a 240V AC unit. So
I guess the extra one is for good luck, but heh, they said to do it
righ? In other words, whoever wrote that manual, proably in China,
didn't know WTF they were talking about.

On the other hand, we do know the unit is rated at 3.7 tons. That
the rated input power is 4600 watts and that the eqpt label says the
min circuit ampacity is 26A. All that says #6 is nuts and that 10g
would suffice. Since 26A is close, I'd go with #8. And I would not
use a cord, which I don't think would even pass code here. I'd put
THWN, #8, 2 conductors plus ground, inside liquidtight. The OP as
always, can do as he chooses.

wrote in :

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 15:51:59 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 14:05:32 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

And remember - if the unit draws a constant 26 amps, it is over-spec
for a 30 amp circuit (maximum 80% rated current for continuous use)

The term "continuous" has a clear, specific definition in the Code -- and an air
conditioner
does not meet that definition.

You really should stop trying to give electrical advice.
OK - what does "continuous" mean? What minimum duty cycle is
required for it to be "continuous"? How long does the air conditioner
run on the hottest day of the year? Is the running current not
"continuous" in this case? Starting amps don't count. Do you KNOW what
the steady state running current of the AC unit in question is??

Continuous is 3 hours in the NEC.

At maximum current.

wrote in :

On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 14:05:32 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

And remember - if the unit draws a constant 26 amps, it is over-spec
for a 30 amp circuit (maximum 80% rated current for continuous use)

The term "continuous" has a clear, specific definition in the Code -- and an air conditioner
does not meet that definition.

You really should stop trying to give electrical advice.
OK - what does "continuous" mean?

"Continuous load: a load where the maximum current is expected to continue for three hours
or more." [NEC, Article 100]

What minimum duty cycle is
required for it to be "continuous"?

See above.

How long does the air conditioner
run on the hottest day of the year?

Immaterial. The only relevant question is, does it pull maximum current for three hours or
more?

Is the running current not
"continuous" in this case?

It does not appear to meet the NEC's definition of a continuous load -- a definition you're
clearly ignorant of.

Starting amps don't count. Do you KNOW what
the steady state running current of the AC unit in question is??

From the data posted by the OP, apparently it's 26 amps.

My assumption is the AC unit would draw 26 amps for more than 20 min
utes at a time, up to full time operation, it is to be connected with
a 3 conductor (including ground) flexible stranded cable.

Your assumptions are no more valid than mine, whatever they are -
unless you KNOW what current the unit draws and KNOW it will never
approach 100% duty cycle

Wrong yet again. I never said it would not approach 100% duty cycle, and that's not what's
meant by "continuous load".

trader_4 wrote in news:721afe4d-95af-4321-a785-f2428f838f82
@googlegroups.com:

On Saturday, August 2, 2014 3:51:59 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 14:05:32 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:
wrote in :
And remember - if the unit draws a constant 26 amps, it is over-spec
for a 30 amp circuit (maximum 80% rated current for continuous use)

The term "continuous" has a clear, specific definition in the Code -- and an air
conditioner
does not meet that definition.

You really should stop trying to give electrical advice.

OK - what does "continuous" mean?

It would seem if you're giving out the advice, you should know that
no? And if not, googling "code definition continous load" should work.

Not knowing what the Code says hasn't ever previously prevented him from giving
electrical advice; no reason to expect that to change now, is there?

wrote in :

[...]
And if the manufacturer(on the UL label) specifies #6 wire be used
for connection, it does NOT meet code if installed with #8 or #10

Just stop. You're only digging the hole deeper.

UL labels specify voltage, amperage, wattage -- but when have you seen one that specifies
the size of the circuit conductors?

On Saturday, August 2, 2014 6:28:45 PM UTC-4, Doug Miller wrote:
wrote in :



On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 14:05:32 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller

wrote:



wrote in :



And remember - if the unit draws a constant 26 amps, it is over-spec

for a 30 amp circuit (maximum 80% rated current for continuous use)



The term "continuous" has a clear, specific definition in the Code -- and an air conditioner

does not meet that definition.



You really should stop trying to give electrical advice.

OK - what does "continuous" mean?



"Continuous load: a load where the maximum current is expected to continue for three hours

or more." [NEC, Article 100]



What minimum duty cycle is

required for it to be "continuous"?



See above.



How long does the air conditioner

run on the hottest day of the year?



Immaterial. The only relevant question is, does it pull maximum current for three hours or

more?



Is the running current not

"continuous" in this case?



It does not appear to meet the NEC's definition of a continuous load -- a definition you're

clearly ignorant of.



Starting amps don't count. Do you KNOW what

the steady state running current of the AC unit in question is??



From the data posted by the OP, apparently it's 26 amps.


Agree with you except for the above. The "min circuit ampacity" is 26.
The rated load amps is 19. It also says the rated input power is 4600W.
Clearly it's running closer to 19 amps, not 26. The exact current is
going to vary based on the exact conditions present at the time. But all
that is taken into account when they spec'd the min circuit amps at 26.
The unit is only 41K btu, ie 3.7 tons. It's impossible for a unit to
need #6, if it drew that much power and only produced 3.7 tons, it would
never meet the min govt SEER standards.

It's obvious whoever wrote that manual made several mistakes. If it were
me, I'd use #8 and a 50A breaker, which is consistent with the unit label
and be done with it. I suggested previously that if this needs to be
permitted, the OP could take the relevant info to the inspector and ask.
I for sure would do one of the above before I installed it with #6, using a
*4 conductor *cord*, because the lame manual says so.

On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 22:25:10 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 15:51:59 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 14:05:32 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

And remember - if the unit draws a constant 26 amps, it is over-spec
for a 30 amp circuit (maximum 80% rated current for continuous use)

The term "continuous" has a clear, specific definition in the Code -- and an air
conditioner
does not meet that definition.

You really should stop trying to give electrical advice.
OK - what does "continuous" mean? What minimum duty cycle is
required for it to be "continuous"? How long does the air conditioner
run on the hottest day of the year? Is the running current not
"continuous" in this case? Starting amps don't count. Do you KNOW what
the steady state running current of the AC unit in question is??

Continuous is 3 hours in the NEC.

At maximum current.
And how much current does this AC unit draw, steady state? And how
long will it run on the hottest day of the year, in the hottest year
in 10 years???

On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 22:28:45 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 14:05:32 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

And remember - if the unit draws a constant 26 amps, it is over-spec
for a 30 amp circuit (maximum 80% rated current for continuous use)

The term "continuous" has a clear, specific definition in the Code -- and an air conditioner
does not meet that definition.

You really should stop trying to give electrical advice.
OK - what does "continuous" mean?

"Continuous load: a load where the maximum current is expected to continue for three hours
or more." [NEC, Article 100]

What minimum duty cycle is
required for it to be "continuous"?

See above.

How long does the air conditioner
run on the hottest day of the year?

Immaterial. The only relevant question is, does it pull maximum current for three hours or
more?

Is the running current not
"continuous" in this case?

It does not appear to meet the NEC's definition of a continuous load -- a definition you're
clearly ignorant of.

Starting amps don't count. Do you KNOW what
the steady state running current of the AC unit in question is??

From the data posted by the OP, apparently it's 26 amps.

My assumption is the AC unit would draw 26 amps for more than 20 min
utes at a time, up to full time operation, it is to be connected with
a 3 conductor (including ground) flexible stranded cable.

Your assumptions are no more valid than mine, whatever they are -
unless you KNOW what current the unit draws and KNOW it will never
approach 100% duty cycle

Wrong yet again. I never said it would not approach 100% duty cycle, and that's not what's
meant by "continuous load".
If the AC unit runs at 26 FLA for 3 hours and 1 minute on the hottest
day of the year, it is over 80% and "continuous" by code, so the wire
needs to be derated to 80%., meaning it needs a larger cable.

On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 22:31:25 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

trader_4 wrote in news:721afe4d-95af-4321-a785-f2428f838f82
:

On Saturday, August 2, 2014 3:51:59 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 14:05:32 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:
wrote in :
And remember - if the unit draws a constant 26 amps, it is over-spec
for a 30 amp circuit (maximum 80% rated current for continuous use)

The term "continuous" has a clear, specific definition in the Code -- and an air
conditioner
does not meet that definition.

You really should stop trying to give electrical advice.

OK - what does "continuous" mean?

It would seem if you're giving out the advice, you should know that
no? And if not, googling "code definition continous load" should work.

Not knowing what the Code says hasn't ever previously prevented him from giving
electrical advice; no reason to expect that to change now, is there?
If the AC runs for 3 hours and 1 minute without shutting down at 26
amps, a #10 cable is undersized for the application.
That is according to your interpretation of the code.
Is it inconceiveable that this air conditioner could run for over 3
hours at a time???

If this AC can run for more than 3 hours without shutting down,and it
draws 26 amps, it requires #8 cable. If the rating label states it
requires a #6 cable, it requires a #6 cable to meet code.
I don't pretend to know WHY the manufacturer specified a #6 cable,
when according to code a #8 would be adequate. My only GUESS is it had
something to do with the specification that the unit was to be
connected with stranded cable (I believe that was part of the original
post) - in which case the premises wiring could be #8 and the flex
cable be #6.. The specification was 3 conductor # 6 flexible cable,
and the OP misread that to be NMD or NMW6-3 + ground from the service
panel to the unit.

That's MY take on it.

On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 22:35:00 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

[...]
And if the manufacturer(on the UL label) specifies #6 wire be used
for connection, it does NOT meet code if installed with #8 or #10

Just stop. You're only digging the hole deeper.

UL labels specify voltage, amperage, wattage -- but when have you seen one that specifies
the size of the circuit conductors?
I thought the OP said the label on the unit gave the circuit
requirements and the cable specification. I could have misread that.
My reader does not make it easy to go back to previous posts in a
thread, so I'm going by memory.

On Saturday, August 2, 2014 7:23:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 22:28:45 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller

wrote:



wrote in :



On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 14:05:32 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller

wrote:



wrote in :



And remember - if the unit draws a constant 26 amps, it is over-spec

for a 30 amp circuit (maximum 80% rated current for continuous use)



The term "continuous" has a clear, specific definition in the Code -- and an air conditioner

does not meet that definition.



You really should stop trying to give electrical advice.

OK - what does "continuous" mean?



"Continuous load: a load where the maximum current is expected to continue for three hours

or more." [NEC, Article 100]



What minimum duty cycle is

required for it to be "continuous"?



See above.



How long does the air conditioner

run on the hottest day of the year?



Immaterial. The only relevant question is, does it pull maximum current for three hours or

more?



Is the running current not

"continuous" in this case?



It does not appear to meet the NEC's definition of a continuous load -- a definition you're

clearly ignorant of.



Starting amps don't count. Do you KNOW what

the steady state running current of the AC unit in question is??



From the data posted by the OP, apparently it's 26 amps.



My assumption is the AC unit would draw 26 amps for more than 20 min

utes at a time, up to full time operation, it is to be connected with

a 3 conductor (including ground) flexible stranded cable.



Your assumptions are no more valid than mine, whatever they are -

unless you KNOW what current the unit draws and KNOW it will never

approach 100% duty cycle



Wrong yet again. I never said it would not approach 100% duty cycle, and that's not what's

meant by "continuous load".

If the AC unit runs at 26 FLA for 3 hours and 1 minute on the hottest

day of the year, it is over 80% and "continuous" by code, so the wire

needs to be derated to 80%., meaning it needs a larger cable.

You're confused again. The 26 amps is not FLA, it's the spec for the
minimum ampacity of the circuit. The rest is the wire size that will
support 26A. You're taking what was already calculated by engineers
and applying factors on top of the factors they already applied when
they did the UL listing.

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 17:06:41 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 15:59:53 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 15:51:59 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 14:05:32 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

And remember - if the unit draws a constant 26 amps, it is over-spec
for a 30 amp circuit (maximum 80% rated current for continuous use)

The term "continuous" has a clear, specific definition in the Code -- and an air conditioner
does not meet that definition.

You really should stop trying to give electrical advice.
OK - what does "continuous" mean? What minimum duty cycle is
required for it to be "continuous"? How long does the air conditioner
run on the hottest day of the year? Is the running current not
"continuous" in this case? Starting amps don't count. Do you KNOW what
the steady state running current of the AC unit in question is??

Continuous is 3 hours in the NEC.


My assumption is the AC unit would draw 26 amps for more than 20 min
utes at a time, up to full time operation, it is to be connected with
a 3 conductor (including ground) flexible stranded cable.

Your assumptions are no more valid than mine, whatever they are -
unless you KNOW what current the unit draws and KNOW it will never
approach 100% duty cycle

It is really not even a factor here. The "minimum circuit ampacity" is
an engineered value based on that particular piece of equipment and
takes into account all applicable factors.
In this case a 10 gauge copper wire will fulfill that requirement.
So why does the instruction specify a #6??????
If the manufacturer's UL listing spec requires a #6, it doesn't meet
code to connect with a #10.
I just went bact to the OP's post. I quote:
"Hi, I'm the OP.
Yes, the mini split a/c system specs explicitly call for a 50amp
breaker and #6 AWG (although I shudder to think that it'll actually
use that much, with a 16 SEER)."

What does the code say about over-protecting a cable?
The cable is protected by a 50 amp breaker. Going by "general code"
you cannot run an AWG10 circuit on a 50 amp circuit.
What specifics outside of the "general code" would allow the cable to
be protected with an over-rated protection device?
And yes, the air conditioner in my house is connected with stranded
flexible conductors from the house to the outside unit - run through
weatherproof flexible conduit to the "protected disconnect" - a
weatherproof single circuit circuit breaker enclosure.
The outdoor unit sits on a plarform of concrete blocks on a base of
concrete patio stones, and is not bolted down.. Been that way for over
40 years. (except the original unit sat right on the patio stones, I
raised the unit on concrete blocks to keep it out of the dirt and
leaves when I had the unit replaced.

On Saturday, August 2, 2014 8:09:08 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 17:06:41 -0400, wrote:



On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 15:59:53 -0400, wrote:



On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 15:51:59 -0400, wrote:



On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 14:05:32 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller

wrote:



wrote in :



And remember - if the unit draws a constant 26 amps, it is over-spec

for a 30 amp circuit (maximum 80% rated current for continuous use)



The term "continuous" has a clear, specific definition in the Code -- and an air conditioner

does not meet that definition.



You really should stop trying to give electrical advice.

OK - what does "continuous" mean? What minimum duty cycle is

required for it to be "continuous"? How long does the air conditioner

run on the hottest day of the year? Is the running current not

"continuous" in this case? Starting amps don't count. Do you KNOW what

the steady state running current of the AC unit in question is??



Continuous is 3 hours in the NEC.





My assumption is the AC unit would draw 26 amps for more than 20 min

utes at a time, up to full time operation, it is to be connected with

a 3 conductor (including ground) flexible stranded cable.



Your assumptions are no more valid than mine, whatever they are -

unless you KNOW what current the unit draws and KNOW it will never

approach 100% duty cycle



It is really not even a factor here. The "minimum circuit ampacity" is

an engineered value based on that particular piece of equipment and

takes into account all applicable factors.

In this case a 10 gauge copper wire will fulfill that requirement.

So why does the instruction specify a #6??????

If the manufacturer's UL listing spec requires a #6, it doesn't meet

code to connect with a #10.

I just went bact to the OP's post. I quote:

"Hi, I'm the OP.

Yes, the mini split a/c system specs explicitly call for a 50amp

breaker and #6 AWG (although I shudder to think that it'll actually

use that much, with a 16 SEER)."



What does the code say about over-protecting a cable?

The cable is protected by a 50 amp breaker. Going by "general code"

you cannot run an AWG10 circuit on a 50 amp circuit.

OMG, here we go again. Gfre went through that days ago. I did
too when yesterday someone started in with the same nonsense.
The 15 amps for 14g, 20 amps for 12g, 30 amps for 10g rules
works for lights and receptacles.
It doesn't work for motor and compressor loads. You can indeed have
a 50 amp breaker on 10g wire because the overcurrent protection in
the AC load is in the AC. The breaker is there to protect against
short circuits and it needs to be 50A to handle the brief startup
current.




What specifics outside of the "general code" would allow the cable to

be protected with an over-rated protection device?

The rest of the code that covers motors, HVAC compressors, etc.?



And yes, the air conditioner in my house is connected with stranded

flexible conductors from the house to the outside unit - run through

weatherproof flexible conduit to the "protected disconnect" - a

weatherproof single circuit circuit breaker enclosure.

And you call that a *cord* up in Canada? Around here we call that
THWN run in liquidtight.




The outdoor unit sits on a plarform of concrete blocks on a base of

concrete patio stones, and is not bolted down.. Been that way for over

40 years. (except the original unit sat right on the patio stones, I

raised the unit on concrete blocks to keep it out of the dirt and

leaves when I had the unit replaced.

You see any up there that use #6?, especially a minisplit that's just
3.7 toms? If it needed that much power it would be such a pig that
it could not be sold because it wouldn't meet the min SEER standards.
That's the nutty part about this. Just from practical experience it's
obvious that #6 is a mistake.

And back to the original issue, here's another way of looking at it.
You're looking in the wrong end of the telescope. You're trying to
analyze the load, apply rules and then size the circuit. The engineers
already did that. They put "min circuit ampacity 26A on the UL label.
That means the load is saying, "Hook me up to a circuit capable of
supplying 26A or more."

On Saturday, August 2, 2014 7:41:32 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 19:20:14 -0400, wrote:





And how much current does this AC unit draw, steady state? And how

long will it run on the hottest day of the year, in the hottest year

in 10 years???



If it draws much over 15amps the seer would be so low you could not

even install it in any state with an energy code.

+1

I made exactly the same point. The spec sheet says the rated imput wattage is
4600W. That's 19A, which also happens to be the compressor RLA. It's 41000btu,
3.7 tons. And it's 16 SEER. You couldn't sell it here period, it wouldn't
meet the min federal SEER standards. Just from practical experience, #6
makes no sense.

Clare is looking in the wrong end of the telescope. He's trying to analyze
the load. The engineers already did that and put the "min circuit ampacity 26A"
on the UL label. The load is saying, "Hook me up to a 26A or greater circuit."

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 19:41:32 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 19:20:14 -0400, wrote:


And how much current does this AC unit draw, steady state? And how
long will it run on the hottest day of the year, in the hottest year
in 10 years???

If it draws much over 15amps the seer would be so low you could not
even install it in any state with an energy code.
How many BTUs is the unit? If it is a high BTU unit, the seer could
still be pretty good with over 25 amps of current draw.

Regardless - the OP clearly stated the installation instructions
specified #6 cable and a 50 amp breaker. He also stated it requires a
"minimum ampacity" of 26 amps.

That is all we KNOW.

Do we have the manufacturer and model number of this "mythical
beast"???

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 19:44:01 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 19:23:06 -0400, wrote:



Wrong yet again. I never said it would not approach 100% duty cycle, and that's not what's
meant by "continuous load".
If the AC unit runs at 26 FLA for 3 hours and 1 minute on the hottest
day of the year, it is over 80% and "continuous" by code, so the wire
needs to be derated to 80%., meaning it needs a larger cable.

Are you simply not paying attention here. The 80% does not apply here
at all. It is already computed in the minimum circuit ampacity.
Continuous load doesn't apply to motor loads anyway since the
conductors are already sized to 125% of FLA.

And none of us knows enough about this "mythical beast" to know why it
is specified to be connected to a 50 amp breaker by AWG6 cable.

It's all conjecture at this point - your conjecture and mine equally
valid until more real information is provided.

wrote in :

On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 22:31:25 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

trader_4 wrote in news:721afe4d-95af-4321-a785-f2428f838f82
:

On Saturday, August 2, 2014 3:51:59 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 14:05:32 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:
wrote in news:e8not9po55dsmu3f1ap92udfqh327crtle@
4ax.com:
And remember - if the unit draws a constant 26 amps, it is over-spec
for a 30 amp circuit (maximum 80% rated current for continuous use)

The term "continuous" has a clear, specific definition in the Code -- and an air
conditioner
does not meet that definition.

You really should stop trying to give electrical advice.

OK - what does "continuous" mean?

It would seem if you're giving out the advice, you should know that
no? And if not, googling "code definition continous load" should work.

Not knowing what the Code says hasn't ever previously prevented him from giving
electrical advice; no reason to expect that to change now, is there?
If the AC runs for 3 hours and 1 minute without shutting down at 26
amps, a #10 cable is undersized for the application.

Still wrong. Go back and read the definition I quoted. I was going to say, "read it *again*" but
it doesn't appear that you've read it once.

That is according to your interpretation of the code.

"Interpretation"?? The language is pretty plain -- but you have to actually, you know, *read*
it first, before you know what it says.

Is it inconceiveable that this air conditioner could run for over 3
hours at a time???

It says, "... expected to continue for three hours or more".

wrote in
:

On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 22:35:00 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in
m:

[...]
And if the manufacturer(on the UL label) specifies #6 wire
be used
for connection, it does NOT meet code if installed with #8 or
#10

Just stop. You're only digging the hole deeper.

UL labels specify voltage, amperage, wattage -- but when have
you seen one that specifies the size of the circuit conductors?
I thought the OP said the label on the unit gave the circuit
requirements and the cable specification. I could have misread
that. My reader does not make it easy to go back to previous
posts in a thread, so I'm going by memory.

Irrespective of what the OP may or may not have written, it's
pretty clear that you're not actually very familiar with what is,
or is not, on a UL label.

Just stop. You're only digging the hole deeper.

On Sun, 3 Aug 2014 01:15:32 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

wrote in :

On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 22:31:25 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

trader_4 wrote in news:721afe4d-95af-4321-a785-f2428f838f82
:

On Saturday, August 2, 2014 3:51:59 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 14:05:32 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:
wrote in news:e8not9po55dsmu3f1ap92udfqh327crtle@
4ax.com:
And remember - if the unit draws a constant 26 amps, it is over-spec
for a 30 amp circuit (maximum 80% rated current for continuous use)

The term "continuous" has a clear, specific definition in the Code -- and an air
conditioner
does not meet that definition.

You really should stop trying to give electrical advice.

OK - what does "continuous" mean?

It would seem if you're giving out the advice, you should know that
no? And if not, googling "code definition continous load" should work.

Not knowing what the Code says hasn't ever previously prevented him from giving
electrical advice; no reason to expect that to change now, is there?
If the AC runs for 3 hours and 1 minute without shutting down at 26
amps, a #10 cable is undersized for the application.

Still wrong. Go back and read the definition I quoted. I was going to say, "read it *again*" but
it doesn't appear that you've read it once.

That is according to your interpretation of the code.

"Interpretation"?? The language is pretty plain -- but you have to actually, you know, *read*
it first, before you know what it says.

Is it inconceiveable that this air conditioner could run for over 3
hours at a time???

It says, "... expected to continue for three hours or more".

And on a very hot day I could expect my air conditioner to run for
more than 3 hours at a time.

On Saturday, August 2, 2014 7:38:02 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 22:35:00 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller

wrote:



wrote in :



[...]

And if the manufacturer(on the UL label) specifies #6 wire be used

for connection, it does NOT meet code if installed with #8 or #10



Just stop. You're only digging the hole deeper.



UL labels specify voltage, amperage, wattage -- but when have you seen one that specifies

the size of the circuit conductors?

I thought the OP said the label on the unit gave the circuit

requirements and the cable specification. I could have misread that.

My reader does not make it easy to go back to previous posts in a

thread, so I'm going by memory.

Maybe it's time to get a new reader? I don't know how anyone can competently
follow a thread without being able to go back to previous posts.

On Saturday, August 2, 2014 8:42:04 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 19:41:32 -0400, wrote:



On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 19:20:14 -0400, wrote:





And how much current does this AC unit draw, steady state? And how

long will it run on the hottest day of the year, in the hottest year

in 10 years???



If it draws much over 15amps the seer would be so low you could not

even install it in any state with an energy code.

How many BTUs is the unit? If it is a high BTU unit, the seer could

still be pretty good with over 25 amps of current draw.



I think I'm starting to detect a big part of the problem here. You've now
said that with your newsreader you can't go back and view previous posts.
Now you're asking how many BTUS is the unit? I've posted that about 6 times
recently. You also haven't replied to any of my posts. So, it's obvious you've set your newsreader to ignore my replies or else you're deliberately
avoiding them and God knows what else. You're flying in the dark.




Regardless - the OP clearly stated the installation instructions

specified #6 cable and a 50 amp breaker. He also stated it requires a

"minimum ampacity" of 26 amps.



That is all we KNOW.



Do we have the manufacturer and model number of this "mythical

beast"???


Again, that was stated in previous posts. It's not all we know, because
at least Gfre and I have pulled up the actual spec sheet. For example, you've
asked "How much current does this draw?". The spec sheet clearly says the
RLA for the compressor is 19, the fan 1, the rated power input is 4600 Watts.
Again, I've posted that many times now, but you apparently don't give a damn
so you just ignore me and make an ass of yourself.

Sea Breeze SMZ42H46ZOGX.

On Saturday, August 2, 2014 9:15:32 PM UTC-4, Doug Miller wrote:
wrote in :



On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 22:31:25 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller

wrote:



trader_4 wrote in news:721afe4d-95af-4321-a785-f2428f838f82

:



On Saturday, August 2, 2014 3:51:59 PM UTC-4, wrote:

On Sat, 2 Aug 2014 14:05:32 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller

wrote:

wrote in news:e8not9po55dsmu3f1ap92udfqh327crtle@

4ax.com:

And remember - if the unit draws a constant 26 amps, it is over-spec

for a 30 amp circuit (maximum 80% rated current for continuous use)



The term "continuous" has a clear, specific definition in the Code -- and an air

conditioner

does not meet that definition.



You really should stop trying to give electrical advice.



OK - what does "continuous" mean?



It would seem if you're giving out the advice, you should know that

no? And if not, googling "code definition continous load" should work.



Not knowing what the Code says hasn't ever previously prevented him from giving

electrical advice; no reason to expect that to change now, is there?

If the AC runs for 3 hours and 1 minute without shutting down at 26

amps, a #10 cable is undersized for the application.



Still wrong. Go back and read the definition I quoted. I was going to say, "read it *again*" but

it doesn't appear that you've read it once.



That is according to your interpretation of the code.



"Interpretation"?? The language is pretty plain -- but you have to actually, you know, *read*

it first, before you know what it says.



Is it inconceiveable that this air conditioner could run for over 3

hours at a time???



It says, "... expected to continue for three hours or more".

Plus it doesn't matter, because all of that was taken into account by
the engineers when they put "min circuit amapacity 26" on the UL label.
He's trying to analyze the load all over again, when it's been done and
the load is saying "hook me up to a 26A or better circuit".

On Saturday, August 2, 2014 11:31:26 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 02 Aug 2014 20:44:21 -0400, wrote:



And none of us knows enough about this "mythical beast" to know why it

is specified to be connected to a 50 amp breaker by AWG6 cable.



It's all conjecture at this point - your conjecture and mine equally

valid until more real information is provided.



He actually posted the model number and I had no problem finding the

documentation. That is where I got the minimum ampacity. It is a tad

less that 4 tons if he has the maximum number of evaporators

connected. If there are fewer, it uses less power.

+1

This is unbelievable. He hasn't looked at either the spec sheet or the
pertinent data from it, which has all been posted here. In particular,
he's asking how many BTUs it is? I've posted about 6 times that it's
41000, or 3.7 tons. And that the RLA of the compressor is 19A, the fan is
1A, yet he's pretending it's normal running amps could be 26A for 3 hours?
Good grief!

And just from practical experience, has anyone ever seen a new 3.7 ton
AC connected with #6? As you pointed out, if it took that much power it
couldn't be sold because it wouldn't meet the min SEER standards.
That install manual has other big mistakes in
the wiring section, it calls for "4 conductor cord", when what they clearly
show connected is only the normal 2 conductors plus ground. Clare apparently
has even bought that and was arguing for connecting it with a "cord".

I think he's ignoring me. I guess it's better to remain in the dark.