I'm adding two new outlets to my circuit breaker panel. I've got the room
for the additional breakers in the box but the neutral bus bar has no more
room for the neutral and ground wires required. Is it permissible to put
more than one wire per set-screw hole on the neutral bus bar? Some sites
I've researched say yes, others say no. If no, what are the options besides
replacing the whole circuit breaker panel?

TIA,

--
Bobby G.

On Dec 11, 8:51 pm, "Robert Green" wrote:
I'm adding two new outlets to my circuit breaker panel. I've got the room
for the additional breakers in the box but the neutral bus bar has no more
room for the neutral and ground wires required. Is it permissible to put
more than one wire per set-screw hole on the neutral bus bar?

No.

Some sites
I've researched say yes, others say no. If no, what are the options besides
replacing the whole circuit breaker panel?

Get a bus bar kit from your distributor. Install in panel, there will
be predrilled/ tapped holes for this. Connect regular bus bar and
added bus bar via the larger set screw holes intended for this
purpose. Use short section of #4 or #6 bare copper to connect. Should
take half an hour and cost under $20. HTH

Joe

On Dec 11, 10:06�pm, Joe wrote:
On Dec 11, 8:51 pm, "Robert Green" wrote:

I'm adding two new outlets to my circuit breaker panel. �I've got the room
for the additional breakers in the box but the neutral bus bar has no more
room for the neutral and ground wires required. �Is it permissible to put
more than one wire per set-screw hole on the neutral bus bar?

No.

�Some sites

I've researched say yes, others say no. �If no, what are the options besides
replacing the whole circuit breaker panel?

Get a bus bar kit from your distributor. Install in panel, there will
be predrilled/ tapped holes for this. Connect regular bus bar and
added bus bar via the larger set screw holes intended for this
purpose. Use short section of #4 or #6 bare copper to connect. Should
take half an hour and cost under $20. HTH

Joe

yeah i added a bus bar to the home i sold because a bunch of bus bar
screws were totally frozen in position, used bus bar from home depot
it passed middle group inspection after home inspector insisted re
inspection because original sticker signature had faded,

i hope the fellow who bought my home has even worse hassles when he
sells my old home, it would serve him right

wrote in message news:a554bf90-8447-45dc-bc5a-

stuff snipped

yeah i added a bus bar to the home i sold because a bunch of bus bar
screws were totally frozen in position, used bus bar from home depot
it passed middle group inspection after home inspector insisted re
inspection because original sticker signature had faded,

My inspection sticker turned out to be a forgery! The son of the original
owner called me to confess his father's sin after they had some big fight.
Not much I could do about it, though.

i hope the fellow who bought my home has even worse hassles when he
sells my old home, it would serve him right

What goes around, comes around.

--
Bobby G.

"Joe" wrote in message
...
On Dec 11, 8:51 pm, "Robert Green" wrote:
I'm adding two new outlets to my circuit breaker panel. I've got the
room
for the additional breakers in the box but the neutral bus bar has no
more
room for the neutral and ground wires required. Is it permissible to
put
more than one wire per set-screw hole on the neutral bus bar?

No.

Some sites
I've researched say yes, others say no. If no, what are the options
besides
replacing the whole circuit breaker panel?

Get a bus bar kit from your distributor. Install in panel, there will
be predrilled/ tapped holes for this. Connect regular bus bar and
added bus bar via the larger set screw holes intended for this
purpose. Use short section of #4 or #6 bare copper to connect. Should
take half an hour and cost under $20. HTH

Thanks, Joe. That's what I thought when I saw the two front-facing threaded
screw holes on the frontmost bar. At first I thought they were empty
set-screw threads but on closer inspection, that's where two existing bus
bars are connected. I'll check with the local supply house after I record
the box model number and take some photos to show them. I recalled reading
somewhere that two wires to a hole can lead to intermittent neutral problems
and that's why I asked.

--
Bobby G.

yes, its permissible, and done everywhere .

"Robert Green" wrote:
I'm adding two new outlets to my circuit breaker panel. I've got the
roomIfor the additional breakers in the box but the neutral bus bar has no
moreroom for the neutral and ground wires required. Is it permissible to put
more than one wire per set-screw hole on the neutral bus bar? Some sitesdI've
researched say yes, others say no. If no, what are the options
besidestreplacing the whole circuit breaker panel?gnTIA,"g--tBobby G.

I have no problems putting more than one wire into a hole in a bus bar and
tightening down a screw onto them. It has got to be more solid and safer
than a wire nut. However, if this is an old box with screws that you wrap
the wire around under the screw head, don't do it. Only one wire per screw
head.

"The Freon Cowboy" wrote in message
m...
yes, its permissible, and done everywhere .

"Robert Green" wrote:
I'm adding two new outlets to my circuit breaker panel. I've got the
roomIfor the additional breakers in the box but the neutral bus bar has no
moreroom for the neutral and ground wires required. Is it permissible to
put
more than one wire per set-screw hole on the neutral bus bar? Some
sitesdI've
researched say yes, others say no. If no, what are the options
besidestreplacing the whole circuit breaker panel?gnTIA,"g--tBobby G.

"EXT" wrote in message
anews.com...
I have no problems putting more than one wire into a hole in a bus bar and
tightening down a screw onto them. It has got to be more solid and safer
than a wire nut. However, if this is an old box with screws that you wrap
the wire around under the screw head, don't do it. Only one wire per screw
head.

I wasn't going to do the pigtail/wire nut route. I'd rather pull the whole
box and put in one with a higher capacity and more features than start
spaghetti-ing up the box with wire nuts. Well, that's not exactly true.
But I certainly agree that two wires to a hole couldn't be any *worse* than
putting two neutrals into the same bus bar hole. BTW, it's not a screw head
type box. There are setscrews that lock wire into holes a little bigger
than 1/8" in diameter so there's more than enough room for two #12 wires.
Just doubling up a few would give me enough free spots for the neutrals I
need. But the best solution seems to be adding a third bus bar, if I can
find one.

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:33:59 -0500, "EXT"
wrote:

I have no problems putting more than one wire into a hole in a bus bar
and
tightening down a screw onto them. It has got to be more solid and safer
than a wire nut.

The issue is not the security of the connection. It is that when you
would disconnect one neutral you would be opening the other one too if
they were doubled up.

Can you explain further? I am not sure why two neutrals to a hole is a bad
idea, just that it's not code. Aren't all the neutrals all interconnected
at the bus bar anyway?

Thanks!

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 11:33:59 -0500, "EXT"
wrote:

I have no problems putting more than one wire into a hole in a bus bar
and
tightening down a screw onto them. It has got to be more solid and safer
than a wire nut.

The issue is not the security of the connection. It is that when you
would disconnect one neutral you would be opening the other one too if
they were doubled up.

The solution to that situation would be to always kill the main breaker or
even the outside shut off below the meter when disconnecting any neutrals,
true? I'm just trying to figure out alternatives in case I am unable to
find a supplemental neutral bus bar.

Thanks for you input!

--
Bobby G.

Somewhat repeating gfretwell - ground wires can be doubled up but only
if the label indicates that is permitted.

Neutrals may NOT be doubled up - NEC 408.41

In a service panel you can add a ground bar which the label indicates is
acceptable and move ground wires to it. In a subpanel that doesn't help.

ONLY IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING - you could take a neutral from an
A-leg circuit and a neutral from a B-leg circuit, wirenut them together
with a single wire to the neutral bar. It is easy to do this wrong.

--
bud--


yes, its permissible, and done everywhere .

"Robert Green" wrote:
I'm adding two new outlets to my circuit breaker panel. I've got the
roomIfor the additional breakers in the box but the neutral bus bar has no
moreroom for the neutral and ground wires required. Is it permissible to put
more than one wire per set-screw hole on the neutral bus bar? Some sitesdI've
researched say yes, others say no. If no, what are the options
besidestreplacing the whole circuit breaker panel?gnTIA,"g--tBobby G.

bud-- writes:

ONLY IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING - you could take a neutral from an
A-leg circuit and a neutral from a B-leg circuit, wirenut them together
with a single wire to the neutral bar. It is easy to do this wrong.

Can't you also combine two A-leg neutrals, as long as the pigtail
between the wire nut and the neutral bus is sized to carry the sum of
the two circuit currents?

Dave

I've looked at a lot of panels in my neighbor's houses and yes, it appears
to be quite common but that doesn't mean it's code! (-:

--
Bobby G.

"The Freon Cowboy" wrote in message
m...
yes, its permissible, and done everywhere .

"Robert Green" wrote:
I'm adding two new outlets to my circuit breaker panel. I've got the
roomIfor the additional breakers in the box but the neutral bus bar has no
moreroom for the neutral and ground wires required. Is it permissible to
put
more than one wire per set-screw hole on the neutral bus bar? Some
sitesdI've
researched say yes, others say no. If no, what are the options
besidestreplacing the whole circuit breaker panel?gnTIA,"g--tBobby G.

"The Freon Cowboy" wrote in message
m...
yes, its permissible, and done everywhere .

FWIW, it looks like the reason it's done everywhere is that the "by the
book" solution is pretty drastic. As far as I can tell from what Square D
said, to gain more neutral holes, I'll have to change out the whole box.
That's a little too drastic a solution and I have a few options. One is to
disconnect the central A/C since we never use it. That would free some
openings. Another is to mount the supplemental Cutler Hammer ground bus bar
in the case, feed it with a large diameter wire from the existing neutral
bus bar and move the three or four ground wires now connected to the bus
(old house, very few grounded outlets) to the supplemental ground bus bar.
The third seems to be what most people do. Put two wires under a setscrew
and print up a big label for the box "Disconnect Main Breaker Before Neutral
Rewiring!"

--
Bobby G.

Robert Green wrote:

Another is to mount the supplemental Cutler Hammer ground bus bar
in the case, feed it with a large diameter wire from the existing neutral
bus bar and move the three or four ground wires now connected to the bus
(old house, very few grounded outlets) to the supplemental ground bus bar.

Why wouldn't you do it this way? this seems to be the easiest/safest
solution, short of full panel replacement.

nate

The third seems to be what most people do. Put two wires under a setscrew
and print up a big label for the box "Disconnect Main Breaker Before Neutral
Rewiring!"

I really don't like this idea, for reasons already discussed.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
Robert Green wrote:

Another is to mount the supplemental Cutler Hammer ground bus bar
in the case, feed it with a large diameter wire from the existing
neutral
bus bar and move the three or four ground wires now connected to the bus
(old house, very few grounded outlets) to the supplemental ground bus
bar.

Why wouldn't you do it this way? this seems to be the easiest/safest
solution, short of full panel replacement.

Primarily because I'm still convinced there's a supplemental neutral bar for
this box somewhere in the world. The panel box illustration shows three
separate neutral bars for the box I have (but mine only has two) and the
frontmost bar has two threaded screw holes where a third bar could be
mounted, so I still hold out some hope I can find something that will work.
But I am reaching a point where I'm spending a lot more time than simply
mounting the new ground bus bar would take.

The third seems to be what most people do. Put two wires under a
setscrew
and print up a big label for the box "Disconnect Main Breaker Before
Neutral
Rewiring!"

I really don't like this idea, for reasons already discussed.

I don't like it much, either, I must confess. I haven't looked closely at
the box since I confirmed the new bar's holes didn't match the Square D's
(it was close!) but I don't see any way to use the machine screws that came
with the kit. I'm assuming that the correct place for the new grounding bus
bar is along one of the two vertical sides of the box, but I haven't seen
too many new boxes, so I'm not absolutely sure. There's not a heck of a lot
of room inside this box compared to some of the newer ones and I am worried
there won't be enough working room.

I first thought to mount it along the bottom, where there's a lot of free
space but in looking at the photos, I see that the existing ground wires
will be too short to reach and I'd have to wire nut some pigtails, something
I'm not keen on. There is a lot less working room on the sides of the box,
but if I mount it high enough, I can use the existing wire without having to
extend them.

I have to admit, though, I am sorely tempted to take the four ground wires
going to the neutral bus and put as many of them under one screw as will
fit. That may or may not leave me enough open neutral connections on the
bar to accommodate the new outlets. From what I can tell, that's legit to
do with ground wires, but not neutrals.

Thanks for the advice!

--
Bobby G.

Robert Green wrote:
I have to admit, though, I am sorely tempted to take the four ground wires
going to the neutral bus and put as many of them under one screw as will
fit. That may or may not leave me enough open neutral connections on the
bar to accommodate the new outlets. From what I can tell, that's legit to
do with ground wires, but not neutrals.

Thanks for the advice!

--
Bobby G.


Bobby
That's fine as long as the label indicates that the terminals will
except more then one wire. If the label does not list multiple wire
combinations under one screw then you are gambling but you are not
risking much. The supplemental buss bar is the way to go if you want to
do it right.
--
Tom Horne

Robert Green wrote:
"The Freon Cowboy" wrote in message
m...
yes, its permissible, and done everywhere .

FWIW, it looks like the reason it's done everywhere is that the "by the
book" solution is pretty drastic. As far as I can tell from what Square D
said, to gain more neutral holes, I'll have to change out the whole box.
That's a little too drastic a solution and I have a few options. One is to
disconnect the central A/C since we never use it. That would free some
openings. Another is to mount the supplemental Cutler Hammer ground bus bar
in the case, feed it with a large diameter wire from the existing neutral
bus bar and move the three or four ground wires now connected to the bus
(old house, very few grounded outlets) to the supplemental ground bus bar.
The third seems to be what most people do. Put two wires under a setscrew
and print up a big label for the box "Disconnect Main Breaker Before Neutral
Rewiring!"

--
Bobby G.

Bobby
That last idea is a problem right from the start. The reason that the
electric code specifically forbids connecting two neutral conductors
under one terminal is that the two circuits will be loaded and unloaded
in a random way during normal use. Each of the conductors will then
expand and contract at different times causing the connection to the
more lightly loaded of the two wires to be looser than the connector is
designed to be and inducing heating in that connection beyond it's
design limits. That leads to connection creep which gradually makes the
connection less and less firm. Eventually arcing occurs and the neutral
goes open leaving a circuit that appears to be dead energized from the
breaker all the way back to the open neutral connection inside the
panel. As one example of the danger to persons the screw shell of
Edison based screw in light bulbs would be energized at 120 volts to
ground. Someone thinks the bulb is burned out and tries to change it.
If their finger comes in contact with the screw shell while they are
unscrewing the bulb they get a shock. Even if there is no path to
ground through their body their startle reaction alone could throw them
off of a ladder or cause them to fall. If they are also in contact with
some grounded conductive surface such as the metal surface of an
installed lighting fixture they could receive a fatal shock. SquareD
makes an isolated ground buss bar that is designed to be added to a
panel were isolated grounds need to pass through a panel without being
connected to other Equipment Grounding Conductors (EGC) in that panel.
Installing one of those buss bars is a perfectly safe way to add
additional neutral terminations to any panel No matter what the panel is
being used for. It would be a technical violation of the panels listing
and the listing of the isolated grounding buss bar but it would not in
fact be unsafe as long as there is plenty of room in the existing
cabinet to install the buss bar and the room to bend the additional
conductors to each terminal. The additional buss bar would be connected
to the the original buss bar by a copper conductor at least as large as
the main bonding jumper called for in 250.28 Main Bonding Jumper. (D) Size.

250.28 Main Bonding Jumper.
For a grounded system, an unspliced main bonding jumper shall be used to
connect the equipment grounding conductor(s) and the service-disconnect
enclosure to the grounded conductor of the system within the enclosure
for each service disconnect.
(D) Size. The main bonding jumper shall not be smaller than the sizes
shown in Table 250.66 for grounding electrode conductors.

If your panel is two hundred amps or smaller then that wire need be no
larger than number four copper. IF AND ONLY IF YOUR PANEL IS ALSO THE
SERVICE DISCONNECTING MEANS FOR YOUR HOME you could just install a
supplemental Grounding buss as others have already suggested. Since the
Equipment Grounding Conductors and the Grounded Current Carrying
Conductors; by which read neutrals; are bonded to each other and to the
cabinet you can use the supplemental EGC buss bar in the same way you
use the neutral buss bar. In order to avoid having neutral current
traveling on the bonding connections through the steel of the panel's
cabinet you just add a main bonding jumper between the two buss bars so
that current from any neutrals you terminate on the extra buss bar will
have a low impedance pathway back to the utility neutral and thence back
to it's source in the utilities transformer secondary winding.
--
Tom Horne

"Tom Horne" wrote in message
news:jDH9j.9717$c82.8181@trnddc01...
Robert Green wrote:
"The Freon Cowboy" wrote in message
m...
yes, its permissible, and done everywhere .

FWIW, it looks like the reason it's done everywhere is that the "by the
book" solution is pretty drastic. As far as I can tell from what Square
D
said, to gain more neutral holes, I'll have to change out the whole box.
That's a little too drastic a solution and I have a few options. One is
to
disconnect the central A/C since we never use it. That would free some
openings. Another is to mount the supplemental Cutler Hammer ground bus
bar
in the case, feed it with a large diameter wire from the existing
neutral
bus bar and move the three or four ground wires now connected to the bus
(old house, very few grounded outlets) to the supplemental ground bus
bar.
The third seems to be what most people do. Put two wires under a
setscrew
and print up a big label for the box "Disconnect Main Breaker Before
Neutral
Rewiring!"

--
Bobby G.

Bobby
That last idea is a problem right from the start. The reason that the
electric code specifically forbids connecting two neutral conductors
under one terminal is that the two circuits will be loaded and unloaded
in a random way during normal use. Each of the conductors will then
expand and contract at different times causing the connection to the
more lightly loaded of the two wires to be looser than the connector is
designed to be and inducing heating in that connection beyond it's
design limits.

That's in line with what I had read, although it thought it was really only
a problem for CU and AL mixes. As I now understand it, the critical
difference between allowing multiple wires to a set-screw hole for grounds
and but only one wire to the same hole for neutrals is that the latter is
designed to carry current in normal operation but the grounds are not. An
open neutral is a far more drastic fault than an open ground, correct?

stuff snipped
SquareD
makes an isolated ground buss bar that is designed to be added to a
panel were isolated grounds need to pass through a panel without being
connected to other Equipment Grounding Conductors (EGC) in that panel.

Yes, I learned that after so many people told me that there should be wire
connection info in the panel. Since the panel's in an awkward place, I
couldn't see one inside edge of the box without a lot of contortions. I
used a tilt-head camera to photograph that part an inside was a label that
said:

"When grounding bar kit is req'd, use kit PK 9 GTA for QO 12MW and PK 12 GTA
for QO 16MW and QO 20MW Suitable for #14 to 4 CU, #12 to 4 AL, TWO #14 or
12 CU or TWO # 14 or TWP #12 or 10 AL. This box used with interiors QON
12M, 16M and 20M May be used with auxilliary gutter Cat # QOAG17m 26 or 34."

What's an Auxilliary Gutter? When it says TWO # 14 or 12 CU what exactly is
it referring to?

Installing one of those buss bars is a perfectly safe way to add
additional neutral terminations to any panel No matter what the panel is
being used for. It would be a technical violation of the panels listing
and the listing of the isolated grounding buss bar but it would not in
fact be unsafe as long as there is plenty of room in the existing
cabinet to install the buss bar and the room to bend the additional
conductors to each terminal. The additional buss bar would be connected
to the the original buss bar by a copper conductor at least as large as
the main bonding jumper called for in 250.28 Main Bonding Jumper. (D)
Size.

250.28 Main Bonding Jumper.
For a grounded system, an unspliced main bonding jumper shall be used to
connect the equipment grounding conductor(s) and the service-disconnect
enclosure to the grounded conductor of the system within the enclosure
for each service disconnect.
(D) Size. The main bonding jumper shall not be smaller than the sizes
shown in Table 250.66 for grounding electrode conductors.

If your panel is two hundred amps or smaller then that wire need be no
larger than number four copper. IF AND ONLY IF YOUR PANEL IS ALSO THE
SERVICE DISCONNECTING MEANS FOR YOUR HOME you could just install a
supplemental Grounding buss as others have already suggested. Since the
Equipment Grounding Conductors and the Grounded Current Carrying
Conductors; by which read neutrals; are bonded to each other and to the
cabinet you can use the supplemental EGC buss bar in the same way you
use the neutral buss bar. In order to avoid having neutral current
traveling on the bonding connections through the steel of the panel's
cabinet you just add a main bonding jumper between the two buss bars so
that current from any neutrals you terminate on the extra buss bar will
have a low impedance pathway back to the utility neutral and thence back
to it's source in the utilities transformer secondary winding.

Thanks Tom. I searchedEbay for the correct grounding kit for that panel but
nothing showed up. I guess it's too old for even the liquidators to have
one. I just counted up the grounds going to the neutral bus bar and if I
moved them to a supplemental bus bar, I can have all the neutrals from the
new outlets mounted one to a set screw on the original factory installed
neutral buss bars. Not quite sure what gauge wire I should connect to
between the ground bus and the neutral bus. In doing some futher searching
I found this:

http://www.selfhelpforums.com/archiv...hp/t-2278.html

Which had an interesting exchange:

MD, when you use two or more ground bars like this do you normally wire
them together with a "bond" wire, or is the panel mounting enough?

For commercial work, particularly in 277/480 panels, yes I do. In a
dwelling, I do not. If you said that you wanted to, there would be nothing
wrong with that. I have just never felt the need to do so in a residential
panel where the available fault current comparatively not that great.

That would lead me to believe some sparkies do simply ground the bus bars
through the panel. I am afraid that I may not have enough neutral setscrew
hole openings if I use a jumper between the ground and the neutral bus bars
and that I may still have to mount a neutral to the ground bar because I'd
be short by one neutral. I'm not sure which is worse: the neutral and
ground being connected by the steel case or a lone neutral being connected
to the supplemental grounding bar.

Who ever thought adding a couple of extra outlets could be so much fun? )-:

--
Bobby G.

On 2007-12-18, Robert Green wrote:

"When grounding bar kit is req'd, use kit PK 9 GTA for QO 12MW and PK 12 GTA
for QO 16MW and QO 20MW"

PK9GTA and PK12GTA I believe are the grounding bar kits for Square D's
current line of panels, so they should be readily available at your
local electrical supply.

When it says TWO # 14 or 12 CU what exactly is it referring to?

That the grounding bar (unlike the neutral bar) is listed for two
conductors of that size per hole.

I'm not sure which is worse: the neutral and ground being connected
by the steel case or a lone neutral being connected to the
supplemental grounding bar.

I would say the latter is worse, as it causes some neutral current to
pass through the enclosure case all the time, while the former simply
makes the case part of the EGC system.

Cheers, Wayne

Robert Green wrote:
"Tom Horne" wrote in message
news:jDH9j.9717$c82.8181@trnddc01...
Robert Green wrote:
"The Freon Cowboy" wrote in message
m...
yes, its permissible, and done everywhere .
FWIW, it looks like the reason it's done everywhere is that the "by the
book" solution is pretty drastic. As far as I can tell from what Square
D
said, to gain more neutral holes, I'll have to change out the whole box.
That's a little too drastic a solution and I have a few options. One is
to
disconnect the central A/C since we never use it. That would free some
openings. Another is to mount the supplemental Cutler Hammer ground bus
bar
in the case, feed it with a large diameter wire from the existing
neutral
bus bar and move the three or four ground wires now connected to the bus
(old house, very few grounded outlets) to the supplemental ground bus
bar.
The third seems to be what most people do. Put two wires under a
setscrew
and print up a big label for the box "Disconnect Main Breaker Before
Neutral
Rewiring!"

--
Bobby G.
Bobby
That last idea is a problem right from the start. The reason that the
electric code specifically forbids connecting two neutral conductors
under one terminal is that the two circuits will be loaded and unloaded
in a random way during normal use. Each of the conductors will then
expand and contract at different times causing the connection to the
more lightly loaded of the two wires to be looser than the connector is
designed to be and inducing heating in that connection beyond it's
design limits.

That's in line with what I had read, although it thought it was really only
a problem for CU and AL mixes. As I now understand it, the critical
difference between allowing multiple wires to a set-screw hole for grounds
and but only one wire to the same hole for neutrals is that the latter is
designed to carry current in normal operation but the grounds are not. An
open neutral is a far more drastic fault than an open ground, correct?

stuff snipped
SquareD
makes an isolated ground buss bar that is designed to be added to a
panel were isolated grounds need to pass through a panel without being
connected to other Equipment Grounding Conductors (EGC) in that panel.

Yes, I learned that after so many people told me that there should be wire
connection info in the panel. Since the panel's in an awkward place, I
couldn't see one inside edge of the box without a lot of contortions. I
used a tilt-head camera to photograph that part an inside was a label that
said:

"When grounding bar kit is req'd, use kit PK 9 GTA for QO 12MW and PK 12 GTA
for QO 16MW and QO 20MW Suitable for #14 to 4 CU, #12 to 4 AL, TWO #14 or
12 CU or TWO # 14 or TWP #12 or 10 AL. This box used with interiors QON
12M, 16M and 20M May be used with auxilliary gutter Cat # QOAG17m 26 or 34."

What's an Auxilliary Gutter? When it says TWO # 14 or 12 CU what exactly is
it referring to?

Installing one of those buss bars is a perfectly safe way to add
additional neutral terminations to any panel No matter what the panel is
being used for. It would be a technical violation of the panels listing
and the listing of the isolated grounding buss bar but it would not in
fact be unsafe as long as there is plenty of room in the existing
cabinet to install the buss bar and the room to bend the additional
conductors to each terminal. The additional buss bar would be connected
to the the original buss bar by a copper conductor at least as large as
the main bonding jumper called for in 250.28 Main Bonding Jumper. (D)
Size.
250.28 Main Bonding Jumper.
For a grounded system, an unspliced main bonding jumper shall be used to
connect the equipment grounding conductor(s) and the service-disconnect
enclosure to the grounded conductor of the system within the enclosure
for each service disconnect.
(D) Size. The main bonding jumper shall not be smaller than the sizes
shown in Table 250.66 for grounding electrode conductors.

If your panel is two hundred amps or smaller then that wire need be no
larger than number four copper. IF AND ONLY IF YOUR PANEL IS ALSO THE
SERVICE DISCONNECTING MEANS FOR YOUR HOME you could just install a
supplemental Grounding buss as others have already suggested. Since the
Equipment Grounding Conductors and the Grounded Current Carrying
Conductors; by which read neutrals; are bonded to each other and to the
cabinet you can use the supplemental EGC buss bar in the same way you
use the neutral buss bar. In order to avoid having neutral current
traveling on the bonding connections through the steel of the panel's
cabinet you just add a main bonding jumper between the two buss bars so
that current from any neutrals you terminate on the extra buss bar will
have a low impedance pathway back to the utility neutral and thence back
to it's source in the utilities transformer secondary winding.

Thanks Tom. I searched Ebay for the correct grounding kit for that panel but
nothing showed up. I guess it's too old for even the liquidators to have
one. I just counted up the grounds going to the neutral bus bar and if I
moved them to a supplemental bus bar, I can have all the neutrals from the
new outlets mounted one to a set screw on the original factory installed
neutral buss bars. Not quite sure what gauge wire I should connect to
between the ground bus and the neutral bus. In doing some further searching
I found this:

http://www.selfhelpforums.com/archive/index.php/t-2278.html

Which had an interesting exchange:

MD, when you use two or more ground bars like this do you normally wire
them together with a "bond" wire, or is the panel mounting enough?

For commercial work, particularly in 277/480 panels, yes I do. In a
dwelling, I do not. If you said that you wanted to, there would be nothing
wrong with that. I have just never felt the need to do so in a residential
panel where the available fault current comparatively not that great.

That would lead me to believe some sparkies do simply ground the bus bars
through the panel. I am afraid that I may not have enough neutral setscrew
hole openings if I use a jumper between the ground and the neutral bus bars
and that I may still have to mount a neutral to the ground bar because I'd
be short by one neutral. I'm not sure which is worse: the neutral and
ground being connected by the steel case or a lone neutral being connected
to the supplemental grounding bar.

Who ever thought adding a couple of extra outlets could be so much fun? )-:

--
Bobby G.

Bobby
If you bond the two together with a copper conductor you can use either
one for the neutral conductors because electrically speaking there would
be no difference between them. If you only need the extra buss bar to
move Equipment Grounding Conductors (EGC) to then don't bother with the
bonding conductor. In that second case the steel of the cabinet would
only have to briefly carry fault current and that job it can do very
adequately.
--
Tom Horne

"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
I'm adding two new outlets to my circuit breaker panel. I've got the room
for the additional breakers in the box but the neutral bus bar has no more
room for the neutral and ground wires required. Is it permissible to put
more than one wire per set-screw hole on the neutral bus bar? Some sites
I've researched say yes, others say no. If no, what are the options
besides
replacing the whole circuit breaker panel?


The panel label should have the information that you need. Usually you can
double or triple the ground wires together. The neutral wires must be by
themselves. As others have suggested it is possible to add a ground bar to
the panel.

"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...

"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
I'm adding two new outlets to my circuit breaker panel. I've got the
room
for the additional breakers in the box but the neutral bus bar has no
more
room for the neutral and ground wires required. Is it permissible to
put
more than one wire per set-screw hole on the neutral bus bar? Some
sites
I've researched say yes, others say no. If no, what are the options
besides
replacing the whole circuit breaker panel?


The panel label should have the information that you need. Usually you
can
double or triple the ground wires together. The neutral wires must be by
themselves. As others have suggested it is possible to add a ground bar
to
the panel.

It's a Square D QOC-20MW (on the cover label) but a QO8W-20M100-5 on the
panel label. There are three diagrams on the label and the one that appears
to apply shows three levels of neutral bus bars with arrows pointing to the
center of the center bar. One arrow says "Box bonding when required" and
points to the very center of the bar at a O in between two X's. The other
says "Ground when required" and points to the innermost left setscrew on the
center bus.

v
[ O O O O X o X O O O O ]
^

(The O's are set screws There's also an abbreviation S/N next to a circle
that's drawn inside the lines of the third bus bar. On the other two
drawings where there are only two bus bars, the circle is outside the bus
bars.)

Not anything written on it that would seem to shed light on the "more than
one to a hole" issue.

The box label has 4-81 in the lower left corner and the box's forged
inspection label is dated 6/82 so I assume this box is 25+ years old.

--
Bobby G.

"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...

"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
I'm adding two new outlets to my circuit breaker panel. I've got the
room
for the additional breakers in the box but the neutral bus bar has no
more
room for the neutral and ground wires required. Is it permissible to
put
more than one wire per set-screw hole on the neutral bus bar? Some
sites
I've researched say yes, others say no. If no, what are the options
besides
replacing the whole circuit breaker panel?


The panel label should have the information that you need. Usually you
can
double or triple the ground wires together. The neutral wires must be
by
themselves. As others have suggested it is possible to add a ground bar
to
the panel.

It's a Square D QOC-20MW (on the cover label) but a QO8W-20M100-5 on the
panel label. There are three diagrams on the label and the one that
appears
to apply shows three levels of neutral bus bars with arrows pointing to
the
center of the center bar. One arrow says "Box bonding when required" and
points to the very center of the bar at a O in between two X's. The other
says "Ground when required" and points to the innermost left setscrew on
the
center bus.

v
[ O O O O X o X O O O O ]
^

(The O's are set screws There's also an abbreviation S/N next to a circle
that's drawn inside the lines of the third bus bar. On the other two
drawings where there are only two bus bars, the circle is outside the bus
bars.)

Not anything written on it that would seem to shed light on the "more than
one to a hole" issue.

The box label has 4-81 in the lower left corner and the box's forged
inspection label is dated 6/82 so I assume this box is 25+ years old.


With some Square D panels the covers are sold separately. Hence the model
number difference. There may be one small sentence somewhere inside the
PANEL label that states the wire sizes and number of wires for the
neutral/ground bar. Look for "Wire range 4 -14" or something to that
effect.

You should be fine with at least doubling up the grounds. If you need more
room add another ground bar.

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:51:35 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

I'm adding two new outlets to my circuit breaker panel. I've got the
room
for the additional breakers in the box but the neutral bus bar has no
more
room for the neutral and ground wires required. Is it permissible to put
more than one wire per set-screw hole on the neutral bus bar? Some sites
I've researched say yes, others say no. If no, what are the options
besides
replacing the whole circuit breaker panel?

TIA,


You can double up or maybe even triple up GROUND wires (depending on
brand) , Neutrals are one per hole.

That explains the confusion.

Look at the panel label to see
about the grounds. Don't pull of any neutrals if the power is on. Bad
things can happen.

Shocking!

Trip the main.
Certainly adding supplimental bars is a better way to go but don't put
neutrals on suplimental bars, only grounds. If you put a neutral on
the supplimental bars you are putting circuit current through the
metal can and the green bonding screw.
(that is 250.6 for you code guys)

Not sure I understand this. This is a very old (well circa 1981) panel. I
have a photograph but I think the Usenet police forbid posting same here.
It looks like a supplemental bar would screw into the two existing bars and
wouldn't contact anything except the existing bars. This is old, ungrounded
wiring. The panel was a "heavy up" added so that the buyer could qualify
for an FHA sale. Next time I go downstairs, I'll copy all the important
info.

--
Bobby G.

On Dec 13, 10:31 pm, "Robert Green"
wrote:
Not sure I understand this. This is a very old (well circa 1981) panel. I
have a photograph but I think the Usenet police forbid posting same here.
It looks like a supplemental bar would screw into the two existing bars and

Post your pics at tinypic.com and it will give you a URL to post in a
Usenet message.

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 22:31:13 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

Trip the main.
Certainly adding supplimental bars is a better way to go but don't put
neutrals on suplimental bars, only grounds. If you put a neutral on
the supplimental bars you are putting circuit current through the
metal can and the green bonding screw.
(that is 250.6 for you code guys)

Not sure I understand this. This is a very old (well circa 1981) panel.
I
have a photograph but I think the Usenet police forbid posting same here.
It looks like a supplemental bar would screw into the two existing bars
and
wouldn't contact anything except the existing bars. This is old,
ungrounded
wiring. The panel was a "heavy up" added so that the buyer could qualify
for an FHA sale. Next time I go downstairs, I'll copy all the important
info.


If you can find a kit that piggybacks on the neutral bus you can
connect neutral wires to it but most supplimental kits just screw to
the enclosure in factory tapped holes. That is fine for ground wires
but you don't want neutral wires on that kind of bus. It puts circuit
current through the metal enclosure.

I see. The bus bar that I am hoping to find should be a piggy back type
that screws into the existing bus bars, essentially adding another "tier" of
holes and setscrews. It doesn't connect to the panel enclosure, but seems
to be electrically isolated from it. It would seem that the screws that
hold the new bus bar to the old two would be able to carry a lot of current
but I believe I will take a large piece of wire to connect the two bars as
advised previously. I'm just hoping I can find something to fit a 26
year-old circuit panel.

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 06:17:55 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

If you can find a kit that piggybacks on the neutral bus you can
connect neutral wires to it but most supplimental kits just screw to
the enclosure in factory tapped holes. That is fine for ground wires
but you don't want neutral wires on that kind of bus. It puts circuit
current through the metal enclosure.

I see. The bus bar that I am hoping to find should be a piggy back type
that screws into the existing bus bars, essentially adding another "tier"
of
holes and setscrews. It doesn't connect to the panel enclosure, but
seems
to be electrically isolated from it. It would seem that the screws that
hold the new bus bar to the old two would be able to carry a lot of
current
but I believe I will take a large piece of wire to connect the two bars
as
advised previously. I'm just hoping I can find something to fit a 26
year-old circuit panel.


You posted the relevent information. The model number of the panel and
the part number of the neutral kits listed for it should be all you
need if you go to a real electrical supplier. The Home store *may*
have it but you will probably have to figure out which one it is
yourself.

I've copied down the numbers and taken some photographs to take to the local
electrical supply shop. Hopefully, they know what's required in this
jurisdiction. There are 100's of house in this neighborhood all built the
same.

You can poke around on the SqD web site to see what they have

http://www.us.squared.com/us/squared...FEF20769F701BC
985256DDB0073B0F6/$file/SqDUSHomeFrameset.htm

Thanks for the URL. I'll give it a look.

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message

You posted the relevent information. The model number of the panel and
the part number of the neutral kits listed for it should be all you
need if you go to a real electrical supplier. The Home store *may*
have it but you will probably have to figure out which one it is
yourself.

You can poke around on the SqD web site to see what they have

http://www.us.squared.com/us/squared...FEF20769F701BC
985256DDB0073B0F6/$file/SqDUSHomeFrameset.htm

They responded very quickly, but not with the information I had hoped for:

************************************************** ******************
Thank you for contacting Square D/Schneider Electric.

The solid neutrals for our loadcenters are built into the interiors. There
are no UL rated supplemental neutrals made for that purpose. The only
solution is to change the service.

I hope this will take care of you. Please contact us again if we can be of
further assistance.

************************************************** ******************

I'm not sure this is true of the older panels. The two tapped holes in the
front of the bus look as if they would accommodate an auxilliary bar and the
illustration on the panel label shows a configuration with three bus bars,
not the two that are in the panel. Sigh The search continues . . .

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 15:35:19 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

wrote in message


You can poke around on the SqD web site to see what they have


http://www.us.squared.com/us/squared...4FEF20769F701B
C
985256DDB0073B0F6/$file/SqDUSHomeFrameset.htm

They responded very quickly, but not with the information I had hoped
for:

************************************************* *******************
Thank you for contacting Square D/Schneider Electric.

The solid neutrals for our loadcenters are built into the interiors.
There
are no UL rated supplemental neutrals made for that purpose. The only
solution is to change the service.

I hope this will take care of you. Please contact us again if we can be
of
further assistance.

************************************************* *******************

I'm not sure this is true of the older panels. The two tapped holes in
the
front of the bus look as if they would accommodate an auxilliary bar and
the
illustration on the panel label shows a configuration with three bus
bars,
not the two that are in the panel. Sigh The search continues . . .

Wht not just get a grounding kit and move over some grounds to free up
some holes on the neutral bar. There should be tapped holes an a
couple of places in the enclosure for ground bars. I still like to
jumper them back to the neutral with a fat wire but the 10/32 screws
are OK by code for ground busses.

If I decide to go that route, I will certainly jumper the ground bus to the
neutral with the thickest wire I have, which is either a 10 or a 8. As I
noted in the previous post, moving the grounds that are connected to the
neutral bus to their own bus will free up exactly enough wires to
accommodate all of the available breaker positions, as the box was probably
designed to do.

Thanks for the help. Much appreciated.

--
Bobby G.

Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message
...


Why not just get a grounding kit and move over some grounds to free up
some holes on the neutral bar. There should be tapped holes an a
couple of places in the enclosure for ground bars. I still like to
jumper them back to the neutral with a fat wire but the 10/32 screws
are OK by code for ground busses.

If I decide to go that route, I will certainly jumper the ground bus to the
neutral with the thickest wire I have, which is either a 10 or a 8. As I
noted in the previous post, moving the grounds that are connected to the
neutral bus to their own bus will free up exactly enough wires to
accommodate all of the available breaker positions, as the box was probably
designed to do.


You could write back to SquareD and ask if there are any ground bars
available now that fit your panel.

--
bud--

wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

Not sure I understand this. This is a very old (well circa 1981) panel.
I
have a photograph but I think the Usenet police forbid posting same here.
It looks like a supplemental bar would screw into the two existing bars
and
wouldn't contact anything except the existing bars. This is old,
ungrounded
wiring. The panel was a "heavy up" added so that the buyer could qualify
for an FHA sale. Next time I go downstairs, I'll copy all the important
info.


If you can find a kit that piggybacks on the neutral bus you can
connect neutral wires to it but most supplimental kits just screw to
the enclosure in factory tapped holes. That is fine for ground wires
but you don't want neutral wires on that kind of bus. It puts circuit
current through the metal enclosure.

I don't know if the picture of the panel made it through, but there are two
bus bars at the top of the circuit breaker "stack" - one screwed into the
other and the outermost one have two tapped screw holes that look like a
third bar could be attached. The drawings on the label show three different
models of this box - one has one bar, one has two and the third illustration
shows three bars. What I need looks like a 8" strip of metal drilled with
holes and accompanying setscrews. I'll report back when I get to the supply
house. I was unable to get there on Friday so it's got to wait until
Monday.

Thanks for your help!

--
Bobby G.

wrote:
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:51:35 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

I'm adding two new outlets to my circuit breaker panel. I've got the room
for the additional breakers in the box but the neutral bus bar has no more
room for the neutral and ground wires required. Is it permissible to put
more than one wire per set-screw hole on the neutral bus bar? Some sites
I've researched say yes, others say no. If no, what are the options besides
replacing the whole circuit breaker panel?

TIA,


You can double up or maybe even triple up GROUND wires (depending on
brand) , Neutrals are one per hole. Look at the panel label to see
about the grounds. Don't pull of any neutrals if the power is on. Bad
things can happen. Trip the main.
Certainly adding supplimental bars is a better way to go but don't put
neutrals on suplimental bars, only grounds. If you put a neutral on
the supplimental bars you are putting circuit current through the
metal can and the green bonding screw.
(that is 250.6 for you code guys)

I'm completely confused. I thought the neutral and ground bars were
bonded together. And, one of the ways of accomplishing that was a
screw to the panel.

So, in that case, wouldn't the neutral wires be connected to the
casing?

I recently had a post where I had the same set up as the OP
(everything on the neutral bar--old 1960 panel). However, there was an
unused ground bar in the panel and an electrician recently added some
new grounds to it. I was concered that I forgot to ask him if that
ground bar was bonded to the neutral. Everyone here said most likely
the neutral had a "screw" that is hard to see that connects it to the
box, and therefore they should be bonded since the ground bar is right
on the metal box. So if that is true, then there must be current
running through the metal case, which you say is wrong. Or am I
misunderstanding your point?

--
John

John Ross wrote:


wrote:

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:51:35 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:


I'm adding two new outlets to my circuit breaker panel. I've got the room
for the additional breakers in the box but the neutral bus bar has no more
room for the neutral and ground wires required. Is it permissible to put
more than one wire per set-screw hole on the neutral bus bar? Some sites
I've researched say yes, others say no. If no, what are the options besides
replacing the whole circuit breaker panel?

TIA,


You can double up or maybe even triple up GROUND wires (depending on
brand) , Neutrals are one per hole. Look at the panel label to see
about the grounds. Don't pull of any neutrals if the power is on. Bad
things can happen. Trip the main.
Certainly adding supplimental bars is a better way to go but don't put
neutrals on suplimental bars, only grounds. If you put a neutral on
the supplimental bars you are putting circuit current through the
metal can and the green bonding screw.
(that is 250.6 for you code guys)


I'm completely confused. I thought the neutral and ground bars were
bonded together. And, one of the ways of accomplishing that was a
screw to the panel.

So, in that case, wouldn't the neutral wires be connected to the
casing?

I recently had a post where I had the same set up as the OP
(everything on the neutral bar--old 1960 panel). However, there was an
unused ground bar in the panel and an electrician recently added some
new grounds to it. I was concered that I forgot to ask him if that
ground bar was bonded to the neutral. Everyone here said most likely
the neutral had a "screw" that is hard to see that connects it to the
box, and therefore they should be bonded since the ground bar is right
on the metal box. So if that is true, then there must be current
running through the metal case, which you say is wrong. Or am I
misunderstanding your point?

--
John

there is a neutral coming in from the service, that should be connnected
to the ground/neutral bus in the main panel. All neutrals should be
connected to that bus, one per screw. If you don't have enough screws
add an auxiliary one, and you can add ONLY GROUNDS to the added bus bar
(note: I don't know if this is Code or not but it is a good idea) and
you should also bond it to the original ground/neutral bus bar with some
heavy gauge copper wire (also just my idea of a proper installation.)
That way even without the bonding there is NO current flowing through
the backbox unless there is a ground fault somewhere - it goes direct
from the original bus straight to the service.

I have a book that says you can connect more than one ground under a
screw BUT NOT NEUTRALS but I don't know if current codes have changed
any or not. In any case it is a very bad idea to put more than one
neutral under a screw; if that were to happen, you'd need to shut off
the power to the whole house if you needed to remove one neutral from
the bus for whatever reason. Otherwise, you could end up with a
momentary open neutral on a live 120VAC circuit, and that can cause lots
of damage.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Nate Nagel wrote:
John Ross wrote:


wrote:

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:51:35 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:


I'm adding two new outlets to my circuit breaker panel. I've got
the room
for the additional breakers in the box but the neutral bus bar has
no more
room for the neutral and ground wires required. Is it permissible
to put
more than one wire per set-screw hole on the neutral bus bar? Some
sites
I've researched say yes, others say no. If no, what are the options
besides
replacing the whole circuit breaker panel?

TIA,


You can double up or maybe even triple up GROUND wires (depending on
brand) , Neutrals are one per hole. Look at the panel label to see
about the grounds. Don't pull of any neutrals if the power is on. Bad
things can happen. Trip the main.
Certainly adding supplimental bars is a better way to go but don't put
neutrals on suplimental bars, only grounds. If you put a neutral on
the supplimental bars you are putting circuit current through the
metal can and the green bonding screw.
(that is 250.6 for you code guys)


I'm completely confused. I thought the neutral and ground bars were
bonded together. And, one of the ways of accomplishing that was a
screw to the panel.

So, in that case, wouldn't the neutral wires be connected to the
casing?

The enclosure is connected to the neutral bar (only in a service panel).


I recently had a post where I had the same set up as the OP
(everything on the neutral bar--old 1960 panel). However, there was an
unused ground bar in the panel and an electrician recently added some
new grounds to it. I was concered that I forgot to ask him if that
ground bar was bonded to the neutral. Everyone here said most likely
the neutral had a "screw" that is hard to see that connects it to the
box, and therefore they should be bonded since the ground bar is right
on the metal box. So if that is true, then there must be current
running through the metal case, which you say is wrong. Or am I
misunderstanding your point?


There should only be current on ground wires in abnormal events. It is
permissible for that current to go from ground bar, through metal
enclosure, to the bonding screw or jumper in a service panel, to the
service panel neutral bar. The return path for the ground system may
also include metal electrical wiring boxes and metal pipes with wires in
them. Ground wires land on a ground bar, or only in a service panel on
the neutral bar (the neutral and ‘ground’ are connected together only in
a service panel).

Neutrals normally do have current on them. It is not permissible to use
any metal enclosures as part of the return path for the neutral. If a
ground bar has a direct wire connection to a neutral bar, connecting
neutral wires is still likely not permitted. The wire connection is
sized for short duration abnormal ground currents to trip a breaker, not
for long duration neutral return currents. Neutrals may land only on a
neutral bar.


there is a neutral coming in from the service, that should be connnected
to the ground/neutral bus in the main panel. All neutrals should be
connected to that bus, one per screw. If you don't have enough screws
add an auxiliary one, and you can add ONLY GROUNDS to the added bus bar
(note: I don't know if this is Code or not but it is a good idea) and
you should also bond it to the original ground/neutral bus bar with some
heavy gauge copper wire (also just my idea of a proper installation.)
That way even without the bonding there is NO current flowing through
the backbox unless there is a ground fault somewhere - it goes direct
from the original bus straight to the service.

I have a book that says you can connect more than one ground under a
screw BUT NOT NEUTRALS but I don't know if current codes have changed
any or not.

I don't think the code has changed anytime recently. The book is right
that the code explicitly does not allow more than one neutral in a terminal.

The book may be right or wrong on ground wires. More than one wire in a
terminal is not permitted unless the terminal is 'UL' listed for more
than one wire (110.14-A). If more than one wire is permitted, the label
for the panel should indicate that. As gfretwell said "depending on brand".

In any case it is a very bad idea to put more than one
neutral under a screw; if that were to happen, you'd need to shut off
the power to the whole house if you needed to remove one neutral from
the bus for whatever reason. Otherwise, you could end up with a
momentary open neutral on a live 120VAC circuit, and that can cause lots
of damage.

nate

"bud--" wrote in message
news:bffb0$47640257$4213eac6

stuff snipped

I recently had a post where I had the same set up as the OP
(everything on the neutral bar--old 1960 panel). However, there was an
unused ground bar in the panel and an electrician recently added some
new grounds to it. I was concered that I forgot to ask him if that
ground bar was bonded to the neutral. Everyone here said most likely
the neutral had a "screw" that is hard to see that connects it to the
box, and therefore they should be bonded since the ground bar is right
on the metal box. So if that is true, then there must be current
running through the metal case, which you say is wrong. Or am I
misunderstanding your point?


There should only be current on ground wires in abnormal events. It is
permissible for that current to go from ground bar, through metal
enclosure, to the bonding screw or jumper in a service panel, to the
service panel neutral bar. The return path for the ground system may
also include metal electrical wiring boxes and metal pipes with wires in
them. Ground wires land on a ground bar, or only in a service panel on
the neutral bar (the neutral and ‘ground’ are connected together only in
a service panel).

Neutrals normally do have current on them. It is not permissible to use
any metal enclosures as part of the return path for the neutral. If a
ground bar has a direct wire connection to a neutral bar, connecting
neutral wires is still likely not permitted. The wire connection is
sized for short duration abnormal ground currents to trip a breaker, not
for long duration neutral return currents. Neutrals may land only on a
neutral bar.

If I understand correctly, the neutrals and grounds can't be attached at
different points in the panel and if they are, a large shunt wire should
connect the two so that the path of any abnormal current flow it through the
large shunt wire between the two bus bars and not the metal of the circuit
panel box.

there is a neutral coming in from the service, that should be connnected
to the ground/neutral bus in the main panel. All neutrals should be
connected to that bus, one per screw. If you don't have enough screws
add an auxiliary one, and you can add ONLY GROUNDS to the added bus bar
(note: I don't know if this is Code or not but it is a good idea) and
you should also bond it to the original ground/neutral bus bar with some
heavy gauge copper wire (also just my idea of a proper installation.)
That way even without the bonding there is NO current flowing through
the backbox unless there is a ground fault somewhere - it goes direct
from the original bus straight to the service.

I have a book that says you can connect more than one ground under a
screw BUT NOT NEUTRALS but I don't know if current codes have changed
any or not.

I don't think the code has changed anytime recently. The book is right
that the code explicitly does not allow more than one neutral in a
terminal.

The book may be right or wrong on ground wires. More than one wire in a
terminal is not permitted unless the terminal is 'UL' listed for more
than one wire (110.14-A). If more than one wire is permitted, the label
for the panel should indicate that. As gfretwell said "depending on
brand".

I suspect that since the panel was not installed into a house with grounded
outlets, the bus bar serves both neutrals and grounds. However, it's clear
that the two grounded outlets that were added were not done by an
electrician or even a talented amateur.

In any case it is a very bad idea to put more than one
neutral under a screw; if that were to happen, you'd need to shut off
the power to the whole house if you needed to remove one neutral from
the bus for whatever reason. Otherwise, you could end up with a
momentary open neutral on a live 120VAC circuit, and that can cause lots
of damage.

It would seem then, if I have to remove a neutral for any reason the main
shut off has to be used to kill all power to the panel. That's always a
good idea, even though it causes havoc with some of the VCR's and other
electronics in the house. Better than dumping 220VAC through them, I
suppose.

Thanks for your help.

--
Bobby G.

bud-- wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote:
John Ross wrote:


wrote:

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:51:35 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:


I'm adding two new outlets to my circuit breaker panel. I've got
the room
for the additional breakers in the box but the neutral bus bar has
no more
room for the neutral and ground wires required. Is it permissible
to put
more than one wire per set-screw hole on the neutral bus bar? Some
sites
I've researched say yes, others say no. If no, what are the options
besides
replacing the whole circuit breaker panel?

TIA,


You can double up or maybe even triple up GROUND wires (depending on
brand) , Neutrals are one per hole. Look at the panel label to see
about the grounds. Don't pull of any neutrals if the power is on. Bad
things can happen. Trip the main.
Certainly adding supplimental bars is a better way to go but don't put
neutrals on suplimental bars, only grounds. If you put a neutral on
the supplimental bars you are putting circuit current through the
metal can and the green bonding screw.
(that is 250.6 for you code guys)


I'm completely confused. I thought the neutral and ground bars were
bonded together. And, one of the ways of accomplishing that was a
screw to the panel.

So, in that case, wouldn't the neutral wires be connected to the
casing?

The enclosure is connected to the neutral bar (only in a service panel).


I recently had a post where I had the same set up as the OP
(everything on the neutral bar--old 1960 panel). However, there was an
unused ground bar in the panel and an electrician recently added some
new grounds to it. I was concered that I forgot to ask him if that
ground bar was bonded to the neutral. Everyone here said most likely
the neutral had a "screw" that is hard to see that connects it to the
box, and therefore they should be bonded since the ground bar is right
on the metal box. So if that is true, then there must be current
running through the metal case, which you say is wrong. Or am I
misunderstanding your point?


There should only be current on ground wires in abnormal events. It is
permissible for that current to go from ground bar, through metal
enclosure, to the bonding screw or jumper in a service panel, to the
service panel neutral bar. The return path for the ground system may
also include metal electrical wiring boxes and metal pipes with wires in
them. Ground wires land on a ground bar, or only in a service panel on
the neutral bar (the neutral and �ground� are connected together only in
a service panel).

Neutrals normally do have current on them. It is not permissible to use
any metal enclosures as part of the return path for the neutral. If a
ground bar has a direct wire connection to a neutral bar, connecting
neutral wires is still likely not permitted. The wire connection is
sized for short duration abnormal ground currents to trip a breaker, not
for long duration neutral return currents. Neutrals may land only on a
neutral bar.

bud,

Originally, gfretwell said "If you put a neutral on the supplimental
bars you are putting circuit current through the metal can and the
green bonding screw. (that is 250.6 for you code guys)"

And you said "Neutrals normally do have current on them."

OK, so let's forget about where they are "put", and look at the logic
of the end result.

If the neutral and ground bars are bonded, it would seem to me that
means they are unified, regardless of which one the wire lands on. IF
the bond takes place through a screw that touches the panel box, then
how is that not "putting current on the can?"

Not arguing. I actually learned all this stuff from you and others
here. But this is the first time it occurred to me that the neutral
current could be on the panel box because of the bonding as gfretwell
said. So I am still confused about that point (not the issue of
putting neutrals on ground bar). Can you explain why that bond (if
achieved through a screw to the box) does not put the current on the
box? I'm still confused!

--
John

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:51:35 -0500, "Robert Green"

stuff snipped

Certainly adding supplimental bars is a better way to go but don't put
neutrals on suplimental bars, only grounds. If you put a neutral on
the supplimental bars you are putting circuit current through the
metal can and the green bonding screw.
(that is 250.6 for you code guys)

Now I understand what you're saying because I see that in newer boxes the
ground bar is along the side and the neutral bar is physically about a foot
away above the circuit breaker stack.

I went to the local supply house but all they had was a Cutler Hammer
supplemental grounding bar (the set screws are all painted green) that
looked as though it might piggyback onto the existing neutral bus bar. It
doesn't. )-: I might be able to redrill and cut it to fit, but it seems to
be as bad a solution as doubling up the neutrals with more than one to a
setscrew.

I'm hoping now to find a supplier via the internet for the box. Hopefully I
can find a:

Square D QOC-20MW supplemental neutral bus bar

somewhere on the net. Any pointers to good on-line suppliers appreciated.
The Square D site (apparently now Schneider) had nothing listed under the
QOC-20MW product number. )-:

--
Bobby G.

"Robert Green" wrote in message
news
wrote in message
...
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 21:51:35 -0500, "Robert Green"

stuff snipped

Certainly adding supplimental bars is a better way to go but don't put
neutrals on suplimental bars, only grounds. If you put a neutral on
the supplimental bars you are putting circuit current through the
metal can and the green bonding screw.
(that is 250.6 for you code guys)

Now I understand what you're saying because I see that in newer boxes the
ground bar is along the side and the neutral bar is physically about a
foot
away above the circuit breaker stack.

I went to the local supply house but all they had was a Cutler Hammer
supplemental grounding bar (the set screws are all painted green) that
looked as though it might piggyback onto the existing neutral bus bar. It
doesn't. )-: I might be able to redrill and cut it to fit, but it seems
to
be as bad a solution as doubling up the neutrals with more than one to a
setscrew.

I'm hoping now to find a supplier via the internet for the box. Hopefully
I
can find a:

Square D QOC-20MW supplemental neutral bus bar

somewhere on the net. Any pointers to good on-line suppliers appreciated.
The Square D site (apparently now Schneider) had nothing listed under the
QOC-20MW product number. )-:


If it comes down to availability, I would just get whatever neutral bar was
available from the electrical supply. I know Lowes and Home Depot sell
ground bars, but I am not sure if they have the neutral bars. You will
probably need to drill and tap a few holes to mount it or use self drilling
sheet metal screws.

Thanks for the photo BTW.

"John Grabowski" wrote in message
news:4767267e$0$31150

stuff snipped

If it comes down to availability, I would just get whatever neutral bar
was
available from the electrical supply. I know Lowes and Home Depot sell
ground bars, but I am not sure if they have the neutral bars. You will
probably need to drill and tap a few holes to mount it or use self
drilling
sheet metal screws.

That's exactly what I did. Got a Cutler-Hammer grounding bus bar that
looked like it matched what was in the box, but it didn't. It has machine
screws, so I'll probably have to mount it with self-taps if I decide not to
return it. It will allow me to remove some ground wires that are now
mounted in the box's neutral bus bar and relocated them to the new ground
bar. Oddly enough, if I do that, it free just enough neutral holes so that
every breaker can have its own neutral bus bar set screw hole, which is
probably how the panel was designed (this is old, two wire constructions
from the 40's as you can see by the cloth insulation).

The scoop from Square D is that there are no supplemental neutral bus bars
for that model box, but the illustration inside the box differs and the
threaded screw holes on the front of the second bar say otherwise as well.
I doubt the guy who responded was even *born* when my model box was sold,
and I suspect their answer to a lot of questions like mine is "you need a
new box." I will check out Lowe's and HD before I decide what to do on the
off chance they have something the electrical supply house didn't.

Thanks for the photo BTW.

Glad to see it made it through and that I am not under house arrest by
netcops. I think it's important when asking for potentially hazardous
advice to let people see what I am actually talking about because it may be
very different from what they think I am describing.

Thanks again for all the help,

--
Bobby G.