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#1
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
Specifically an X-10 coupler/repeater that's mounted next to the circuit
panel in an ABS enclosure and connected to both phases via a tandem breaker. Will my AHJ freak out because it's not UL listed? TIA, -- Bobby G. |
#2
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
wrote in message
... On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 06:21:31 -0500, "Robert Green" wrote: Specifically an X-10 coupler/repeater that's mounted next to the circuit panel in an ABS enclosure and connected to both phases via a tandem breaker. Will my AHJ freak out because it's not UL listed? TIA, Depends on the inspector. They certainly can tag it if they want to. What is the scope of the permit you have? Who said I had a permit? (-: We don't need no stinkin' permits. This is concerning possibly changing the current setup. I had extensive discussions about the potential hazards of using a non-listed device with its creator who assured me that the enclosure he selected would contain any mayhem. To avoid inspection hassles, I ended up wiring the device through a 240VAC outlet that I installed (that did pass inspection after I corrected a nicked wire around a screw terminal). The inspector never questioned the repeater/coupler because he never saw it. Now I am considering hard-wiring the unit to the panel and would like to find out if the AHJ will freak out because the device is not UL listed and what the issues are relating to non-listed equipment. It's much harder to hide once it's permanently connected. One of the problems other X-10 users have run into is that some inspectors have absolutely no idea what X-10 is nor do they want to know. -- Bobby G. |
#3
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
On 2/26/2014 6:21 AM, Robert Green wrote:
Specifically an X-10 coupler/repeater that's mounted next to the circuit panel in an ABS enclosure and connected to both phases via a tandem breaker. Will my AHJ freak out because it's not UL listed? TIA, -- Bobby G. Looks like you're going to use one the Jeff Volp XTB repeaters, right? I've been looking to get one for some time. I'm using the regular X10 repeater (XPCR) now and, in this location, it seems to work ok ... although it has had some issues. AT Christmas, when I use many modules, I had, just for one evening, a situation where my 1132CU was picking up constant 'noise' and blinking its light. I suspect that the XPCR was sending out some random stuff, but really don't know. I saw this in my more suburban house a few years ago and in fact, couldn't use the XPCR at all. It generated so much noise, it would block or generate its own X10 signals. Here in a more rural setting, it seems to work ok. The XTB unit is not UL approved, unfortunately ... especially, if you opt to save a few $$$ and buy it in kit form. But, the reviews seem to say it's the best unit out there for x10 repeating. BTW, I know it's wrong, but I have my present XPCR hidden inside the breaker box, so it's not easy to see the LEDs on it, but keeps it from being easily seen. |
#4
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
"Art Todesco" wrote in message
... On 2/26/2014 6:21 AM, Robert Green wrote: stuff snipped Looks like you're going to use one the Jeff Volp XTB repeaters, right? Yes, I actually have a few because I was one of his beta testers from the very get-go and ended up with every piece of equipment he ever designed. I've been looking to get one for some time. I'm using the regular X10 repeater (XPCR) now and, in this location, it seems to work ok ... although it has had some issues. I have that unit - a lot cheaper than the XTB-II but you really get what you pay for. The problem with the XPCR is that it doesn't substantially boost the signal. The XTB-II can detect very weak X-10 signals smaller than 100mv and boosts them to around 25 volts. That's why very little on the market compares, performance-wise. Jeff's also worked very hard on perfecting the firmware which means accounting for the many devices that *almost* follow the X-10 protocol. IIRC, the biggest issue is that some device makers put the X-10 signal out at the wrong place on AC cycle - slightly before or after the location specified by the protocol and that has some pretty serious repercussions in trying to design a repeater. Creating something like an X-10 repeater that has to deal with devices from dozens of different manufacturers (some of them extinct!) is quite a challenge. AT Christmas, when I use many modules, I had, just for one evening, a situation where my 1132CU was picking up constant 'noise' and blinking its light. I suspect that the XPCR was sending out some random stuff, but really don't know. I had a Leviton repeater that would go into a "babel" mode when you hit it with just the right command (dimming, IIRC - that's hard for a repeater to handle because of the open-ended nature of such commands). The unit would start sending out fragments of legit X-10 commands (one reason a meter is now a necessity) in an endless cascade. That meant *nothing* in the house worked because the powerline was taken over by a strong, thoroughly corrupted string of signals. I am ashamed to say that first unit (the Leviton) was installed in the panel, temporarily, with jumper cables. EEEK! (-: It didn't stay there long because of all the trouble it caused. I was about to trash my X-10 setup. I posted a note in CHA about the repeater problems and Jeff contacted me about testing his new repeater. The rest, as they say, is history. I saw this in my more suburban house a few years ago and in fact, couldn't use the XPCR at all. It generated so much noise, it would block or generate its own X10 signals. I also had a bad CM11A that would start spewing commands endlessly when it overheated. They apparently had made a big batch of bad units. The CM11A was also known to "speak in tongues" if you made a mistake and left the RS-232 programming cable attached to the CM11A but not the PC. Here in a more rural setting, it seems to work ok. The XPCR is OK as a repeater/coupler in simple setups but it lacks it the incredible power of the XTB-II. It's also missing some very nice features like a digital input port so you can plug devices like HomeVision or Ocelot controllers directly into the repeater without needing an intermediate device like a TW523. In my house, with the plethora of plug in equipment like switched power supplies and UPSs (a known X-10 killer) there's just no operating X-10 without the XTB. A while back when I was working on the circuit panel I disabled the XTB and it became immediately apparent how much the successful functioning of X-10 now depends on having a powerful coupler/repeater. The XTB unit is not UL approved, unfortunately ... especially, if you opt to save a few $$$ and buy it in kit form. I only bought the assembled versions because I've never seen anyone solder as cleanly or professionally as Jeff. I also think it's important to support small businesses like his. Very few people are making things in the USA anymore. There's also the small matter of my absymal soldering skills. We had extensive discussions about getting a UL listing and it's just not justifiable at his sales volume. Install a 240VAC outlet near the circuit box (you can use an existing dryer hookup but the closer to the panel, the stronger the signal). Then you don't have to worry too much about the inspector. If you install the XTB-II in a separate metal box it's not very likely that even a catastrophic failure would do more than melt the components. The unit is internally fused and installed on a dual breaker that trips both phase connections if either one causes a trip. Not sure what the right word for such physically linked breakers is . . . (senior moment) But, the reviews seem to say it's the best unit out there for x10 repeating. I agree wholeheartedly and I have tried most of them. I have repeater/couplers from X-10, ACT, Leviton and more. They are junior leaguers compared to the XTB line. His XTBM line of meters is also unmatched for the price. The higher priced one has a built in repeater check function that tests the repeater function every time the meter is plugged in. Jeff's one of the most detail-oriented people I know. If for any reason you had a problem with one of his units, I am sure he would work very hard to resolve it. I can't recommend his stuff highly enough. Just look at the pictures of assembled products and you'll see the attention to detail I am talking about. http://www.google.com/search?q=xtb+p...&tbm=isch&sa=X BTW, I know it's wrong, but I have my present XPCR hidden inside the breaker box, so it's not easy to see the LEDs on it, but keeps it from being easily seen. And you're worried about the XTB's NOT being UL listed?!!! You bad dog, Art!!!! (-: -- Bobby G. |
#5
Posted to alt.home.repair
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
On 2/28/2014 5:59 AM, Robert Green wrote:
"Art Todesco" wrote in message ... On 2/26/2014 6:21 AM, Robert Green wrote: stuff snipped Looks like you're going to use one the Jeff Volp XTB repeaters, right? Yes, I actually have a few because I was one of his beta testers from the very get-go and ended up with every piece of equipment he ever designed. I've been looking to get one for some time. I'm using the regular X10 repeater (XPCR) now and, in this location, it seems to work ok ... although it has had some issues. I have that unit - a lot cheaper than the XTB-II but you really get what you pay for. The problem with the XPCR is that it doesn't substantially boost the signal. The XTB-II can detect very weak X-10 signals smaller than 100mv and boosts them to around 25 volts. That's why very little on the market compares, performance-wise. Jeff's also worked very hard on perfecting the firmware which means accounting for the many devices that *almost* follow the X-10 protocol. IIRC, the biggest issue is that some device makers put the X-10 signal out at the wrong place on AC cycle - slightly before or after the location specified by the protocol and that has some pretty serious repercussions in trying to design a repeater. Creating something like an X-10 repeater that has to deal with devices from dozens of different manufacturers (some of them extinct!) is quite a challenge. AT Christmas, when I use many modules, I had, just for one evening, a situation where my 1132CU was picking up constant 'noise' and blinking its light. I suspect that the XPCR was sending out some random stuff, but really don't know. I had a Leviton repeater that would go into a "babel" mode when you hit it with just the right command (dimming, IIRC - that's hard for a repeater to handle because of the open-ended nature of such commands). The unit would start sending out fragments of legit X-10 commands (one reason a meter is now a necessity) in an endless cascade. That meant *nothing* in the house worked because the powerline was taken over by a strong, thoroughly corrupted string of signals. I am ashamed to say that first unit (the Leviton) was installed in the panel, temporarily, with jumper cables. EEEK! (-: It didn't stay there long because of all the trouble it caused. I was about to trash my X-10 setup. I posted a note in CHA about the repeater problems and Jeff contacted me about testing his new repeater. The rest, as they say, is history. I saw this in my more suburban house a few years ago and in fact, couldn't use the XPCR at all. It generated so much noise, it would block or generate its own X10 signals. I also had a bad CM11A that would start spewing commands endlessly when it overheated. They apparently had made a big batch of bad units. The CM11A was also known to "speak in tongues" if you made a mistake and left the RS-232 programming cable attached to the CM11A but not the PC. Here in a more rural setting, it seems to work ok. The XPCR is OK as a repeater/coupler in simple setups but it lacks it the incredible power of the XTB-II. It's also missing some very nice features like a digital input port so you can plug devices like HomeVision or Ocelot controllers directly into the repeater without needing an intermediate device like a TW523. In my house, with the plethora of plug in equipment like switched power supplies and UPSs (a known X-10 killer) there's just no operating X-10 without the XTB. A while back when I was working on the circuit panel I disabled the XTB and it became immediately apparent how much the successful functioning of X-10 now depends on having a powerful coupler/repeater. The XTB unit is not UL approved, unfortunately ... especially, if you opt to save a few $$$ and buy it in kit form. I only bought the assembled versions because I've never seen anyone solder as cleanly or professionally as Jeff. I also think it's important to support small businesses like his. Very few people are making things in the USA anymore. There's also the small matter of my absymal soldering skills. We had extensive discussions about getting a UL listing and it's just not justifiable at his sales volume. Install a 240VAC outlet near the circuit box (you can use an existing dryer hookup but the closer to the panel, the stronger the signal). Then you don't have to worry too much about the inspector. If you install the XTB-II in a separate metal box it's not very likely that even a catastrophic failure would do more than melt the components. The unit is internally fused and installed on a dual breaker that trips both phase connections if either one causes a trip. Not sure what the right word for such physically linked breakers is . . . (senior moment) But, the reviews seem to say it's the best unit out there for x10 repeating. I agree wholeheartedly and I have tried most of them. I have repeater/couplers from X-10, ACT, Leviton and more. They are junior leaguers compared to the XTB line. His XTBM line of meters is also unmatched for the price. The higher priced one has a built in repeater check function that tests the repeater function every time the meter is plugged in. Jeff's one of the most detail-oriented people I know. If for any reason you had a problem with one of his units, I am sure he would work very hard to resolve it. I can't recommend his stuff highly enough. Just look at the pictures of assembled products and you'll see the attention to detail I am talking about. http://www.google.com/search?q=xtb+p...&tbm=isch&sa=X BTW, I know it's wrong, but I have my present XPCR hidden inside the breaker box, so it's not easy to see the LEDs on it, but keeps it from being easily seen. And you're worried about the XTB's NOT being UL listed?!!! You bad dog, Art!!!! (-: -- Bobby G. No, I'm not worried about the UL thing. I've seen many UL devices burst into flames. And, I have some home made stuff which is certainly not UL ... maybe the individual part are, but not the whole thing. My plan for the XTB would be to install it in a box next to the panel. |
#6
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 5:21:31 AM UTC-6, Robert Green wrote:
Specifically an X-10 coupler/repeater that's mounted next to the circuit panel in an ABS enclosure and connected to both phases via a tandem breaker.. Will my AHJ freak out because it's not UL listed? TIA, -- Bobby G. I would be most concerned about my insurance policy and what it says, if anything, about connecting Non-UL stuff to my powerlines. If there was a fire, somehow related to an X10 individual controller, or worse still to the main X10 controller/extender, I think the insurance company could give you a pretty hard time on any claims. |
#7
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
wrote in message
news On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 18:11:06 -0500, "Robert Green" stuff snipped Now I am considering hard-wiring the unit to the panel and would like to find out if the AHJ will freak out because the device is not UL listed and what the issues are relating to non-listed equipment. It's much harder to hide once it's permanently connected. One of the problems other X-10 users have run into is that some inspectors have absolutely no idea what X-10 is nor do they want to know. If you don't have an open permit, how is the AHJ going to know you have this thing and if you do get a permit later, this will be "existing" and if it is not in the scope of the new permit, they still will not say anything most of the time.. The NSA will tell them. Or Yahoo will hijack my webcam and show them. humor alert It would be my luck that they took pictures or good notes. I know, arf arf. Thanks, I'm not as worried as I was. Here's a different question. A long time ago when I had central air installed, they added a breaker to my breaker box and ran wiring to the outside to a disconnect and then to the A/C but no one ever came to inspect their work. Do A/C installers get a "pass" for things like that? -- Bobby G. |
#8
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
"Art Todesco" wrote in message
... On 2/28/2014 5:59 AM, Robert Green wrote: stuff snipped Looks like you're going to use one the Jeff Volp XTB repeaters, right? BTW, I know it's wrong, but I have my present XPCR hidden inside the breaker box, so it's not easy to see the LEDs on it, but keeps it from being easily seen. And you're worried about the XTB's NOT being UL listed?!!! You bad dog, Art!!!! (-: No, I'm not worried about the UL thing. I've seen many UL devices burst into flames. Not *too* many, I hope. (-: And, I have some home made stuff which is certainly not UL ... Who among the home automators out there doesn't? NOW I remember why I have been reluctant to schedule an inspection. I had installed Hall-effect sensors on the incoming mains to monitor power usage in real time. I am pretty sure they'll never pass inspection. But they are quite useful since they forced new remote-readable power meters on us without a spinning disk or any other way to monitor real time usage. )-: maybe the individual part are, but not the whole thing. My plan for the XTB would be to install it in a box next to the panel. The plastic box the XTB-II comes will melt but shouldn't burn. Stuff that into a metal panel box and I can't see that it could cause much damage. Wiring up a 240 outlet right near the circuit panel and using a 240VAC plug to connect the device is a good alternative, though. I did that at the start for several reasons - I was comparing the XTB-II to the XPCR and the ACT units so I mounted all of them on 240VAC twist lock plugs so I could switch them out for test purposes. If you have an existing dryer outlet, you could install it there. The length of wire back to the panel will attenuate the signal a little, but not much. I want to use the XTB-II outlet for a welder now, so I am looking to permanently mount the XTB-II because there's not much reason to have it connected to the outlet anymore. It's proved quite reliable and I learned what I needed to know from the testing - the other devices can't hold a candle to the XTB-II because of the 25V signal it puts out compared to 5 to 9 volts for the other units. Good luck, Art. -- Bobby G. |
#9
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
wrote in message
... On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 5:21:31 AM UTC-6, Robert Green wrote: Specifically an X-10 coupler/repeater that's mounted next to the circuit panel in an ABS enclosure and connected to both phases via a tandem breaker. Will my AHJ freak out because it's not UL listed? TIA, -- Bobby G. I would be most concerned about my insurance policy and what it says, if anything, about connecting Non-UL stuff to my powerlines. If there was a fire, somehow related to an X10 individual controller, or worse still to the main X10 controller/extender, I think the insurance company could give you a pretty hard time on any claims. An interesting point. Not sure if it's true (I'll look later) but some sites claim that the new smart meters aren't UL listed. I will take a look at my policy just to be sure. Thanks. -- Bobby G. |
#10
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
On 3/2/2014 9:15 AM, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message news On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 18:11:06 -0500, "Robert Green" stuff snipped Now I am considering hard-wiring the unit to the panel and would like to find out if the AHJ will freak out because the device is not UL listed and what the issues are relating to non-listed equipment. It's much harder to hide once it's permanently connected. One of the problems other X-10 users have run into is that some inspectors have absolutely no idea what X-10 is nor do they want to know. If you don't have an open permit, how is the AHJ going to know you have this thing and if you do get a permit later, this will be "existing" and if it is not in the scope of the new permit, they still will not say anything most of the time.. The NSA will tell them. Or Yahoo will hijack my webcam and show them. humor alert It would be my luck that they took pictures or good notes. I know, arf arf. Thanks, I'm not as worried as I was. Here's a different question. A long time ago when I had central air installed, they added a breaker to my breaker box and ran wiring to the outside to a disconnect and then to the A/C but no one ever came to inspect their work. Do A/C installers get a "pass" for things like that? -- Bobby G. My A/C installer called a licensed electrician who got a permit. Was inspected. Failed because the breaker they installed did not have the correct sticker on it. Breaker had to be replaced. Inspector didn't even look at the wiring, just the stickers on the breaker and external disconnect. In Oregon. |
#11
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
On Sunday, March 2, 2014 12:15:33 PM UTC-5, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message news On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 18:11:06 -0500, "Robert Green" stuff snipped Now I am considering hard-wiring the unit to the panel and would like to find out if the AHJ will freak out because the device is not UL listed and what the issues are relating to non-listed equipment. It's much harder to hide once it's permanently connected. One of the problems other X-10 users have run into is that some inspectors have absolutely no idea what X-10 is nor do they want to know. If you don't have an open permit, how is the AHJ going to know you have this thing and if you do get a permit later, this will be "existing" and if it is not in the scope of the new permit, they still will not say anything most of the time.. The NSA will tell them. Or Yahoo will hijack my webcam and show them. humor alert It would be my luck that they took pictures or good notes. I know, arf arf. Thanks, I'm not as worried as I was. Here's a different question. A long time ago when I had central air installed, they added a breaker to my breaker box and ran wiring to the outside to a disconnect and then to the A/C but no one ever came to inspect their work. Do A/C installers get a "pass" for things like that? -- Bobby G. I guess that would depend on the AHJ. Most places in the US you'd need an electrical permit for that, the work done by a licensed electrician or the homeowner, with an inspection. |
#12
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
On 3/2/2014 12:23 PM, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message ... On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 5:21:31 AM UTC-6, Robert Green wrote: Specifically an X-10 coupler/repeater that's mounted next to the circuit panel in an ABS enclosure and connected to both phases via a tandem breaker. Will my AHJ freak out because it's not UL listed? TIA, -- Bobby G. The NEC used to have language about parts being "listed". Now parts have to be "approved", which is defined as "acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction" (the dreaded AHJ). The AHJ can look to see if the parts are "listed" or "labeled" as meeting an acceptable standard as tested by an acceptable testing laboratory. The change in language was likely to get the NEC out of decisions about which testing laboratories are acceptable. The AHJ can use their discretion to accept parts that are not listed or labeled The NEC has a list of some of the considerations for whether a part is acceptable. I would be most concerned about my insurance policy and what it says, if anything, about connecting Non-UL stuff to my powerlines. If there was a fire, somehow related to an X10 individual controller, or worse still to the main X10 controller/extender, I think the insurance company could give you a pretty hard time on any claims. An interesting point. Not sure if it's true (I'll look later) but some sites claim that the new smart meters aren't UL listed. I will take a look at my policy just to be sure. Thanks. Utility wiring is explicitly not covered by the NEC. The meter is a little funny because, for overhead distribution, the riser and meter socket are owned by the building owner and inspected. Since the meter is owned by the utility I would guess the inspector would ignore it. I think if an installation was passed by the AHJ an insurance company would have trouble denying coverage. And I would think it would have to be rather blatant to allow non-coverage. [Maybe installing a subpanel?] If I remember right, you said the link between legs had a fuse. Fuses in power circuits should be rated for the available fault current where they are located. The fuse for this is probably "supplementary", and that probably doesn't apply. I would like to have a fuse that does comply. The available fault current at a panel is likely 5,000-10,000A. Fuses with that short circuit rating are quite available. Glass 3AG type fuses aren't likely a good choice, don't know what you have. |
#13
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
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#14
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
Another example is a water heater. Most are replaced without a permit,
most AHJs think they need one. I have even heard CBOs saying they wish Home Depot (et al) would be required to see a permit and record the number before they sold one Please elucide -what are AHJ's and CBO's? The acronyms that I normally use don't have those included |
#15
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
"bud--" wrote in message
eb.com... On 3/2/2014 12:23 PM, Robert Green wrote: wrote in message ... On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 5:21:31 AM UTC-6, Robert Green wrote: Specifically an X-10 coupler/repeater that's mounted next to the circuit panel in an ABS enclosure and connected to both phases via a tandem breaker. Will my AHJ freak out because it's not UL listed? TIA, -- Bobby G. The NEC used to have language about parts being "listed". Now parts have to be "approved", which is defined as "acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction" (the dreaded AHJ). The AHJ can look to see if the parts are "listed" or "labeled" as meeting an acceptable standard as tested by an acceptable testing laboratory. The change in language was likely to get the NEC out of decisions about which testing laboratories are acceptable. The AHJ can use their discretion to accept parts that are not listed or labeled The NEC has a list of some of the considerations for whether a part is acceptable. All of this is leading me to want to leave the unit as a plug in and simply install another 240VAC outlet for the welder downstream of the one that serves the coupler/repeater. I would be most concerned about my insurance policy and what it says, if anything, about connecting Non-UL stuff to my powerlines. If there was a fire, somehow related to an X10 individual controller, or worse still to the main X10 controller/extender, I think the insurance company could give you a pretty hard time on any claims. An interesting point. Not sure if it's true (I'll look later) but some sites claim that the new smart meters aren't UL listed. I will take a look at my policy just to be sure. Thanks. Utility wiring is explicitly not covered by the NEC. The meter is a little funny because, for overhead distribution, the riser and meter socket are owned by the building owner and inspected. Since the meter is owned by the utility I would guess the inspector would ignore it. But that still creates an interesting dilemma if the insurer insists all things electrical must be UL listed. Excluding the device that supplies power to the whole house would seem a glaring exception. I think if an installation was passed by the AHJ an insurance company would have trouble denying coverage. And I would think it would have to be rather blatant to allow non-coverage. [Maybe installing a subpanel?] You bad dog. (-; You do realize you've opened Pandora's box - again. If I remember right, you said the link between legs had a fuse. Fuses in power circuits should be rated for the available fault current where they are located. The fuse for this is probably "supplementary", and that probably doesn't apply. I would like to have a fuse that does comply. The available fault current at a panel is likely 5,000-10,000A. Fuses with that short circuit rating are quite available. Glass 3AG type fuses aren't likely a good choice, don't know what you have. I'm kind of embarrassed to say that during beta testing when I noticed no fuses in the design of the repeater I insisted that an unlisted piece of equipment *should* have some sort of internal fusing, if only to show a concern for safety in the design. Jeff told me the worst damage he had seen was an improperly connected coupler where the traces had lifted off the circuit board. Now the fuses pop instead. (-: -- Bobby G. |
#16
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
"mike" wrote in message
... On 3/2/2014 9:15 AM, Robert Green wrote: stuff snipped Here's a different question. A long time ago when I had central air installed, they added a breaker to my breaker box and ran wiring to the outside to a disconnect and then to the A/C but no one ever came to inspect their work. Do A/C installers get a "pass" for things like that? My A/C installer called a licensed electrician who got a permit. Was inspected. Failed because the breaker they installed did not have the correct sticker on it. Breaker had to be replaced. Inspector didn't even look at the wiring, just the stickers on the breaker and external disconnect. In Oregon. Thanks for the data point. It's a little disturbing that the inspector didn't bother to look at the wiring, just the stickers. If they got the breaker choice wrong, I might suspect they did something else wrong. -- Bobby G. |
#17
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
wrote in message news:f2d9e858-b0b9-4322-8da3-
On Sunday, March 2, 2014 12:15:33 PM UTC-5, Robert Green wrote: stuff snipped Here's a different question. A long time ago when I had central air installed, they added a breaker to my breaker box and ran wiring to the outside to a disconnect and then to the A/C but no one ever came to inspect their work. Do A/C installers get a "pass" for things like that? I guess that would depend on the AHJ. Most places in the US you'd need an electrical permit for that, the work done by a licensed electrician or the homeowner, with an inspection. I often wondered whether they were supposed to call the inspector but didn't bother. I don't think there's a mechanism for the AHJ to find such installations. They were the low bidder and they proved it with their less than stellar work (garbage, knock outs and all sorts of metal stuff left outside where they could get picked up by the lawnmower). Lo barato cuesta caro. ("The cheap becomes the expensive") -- Bobby G. |
#18
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
wrote in message
... On Sun, 2 Mar 2014 12:15:33 -0500, "Robert Green" stuff snipped Here's a different question. A long time ago when I had central air installed, they added a breaker to my breaker box and ran wiring to the outside to a disconnect and then to the A/C but no one ever came to inspect their work. Do A/C installers get a "pass" for things like that? Not legally but it does happen a lot. Another example is a water heater. Most are replaced without a permit, most AHJs think they need one. I have even heard CBOs saying they wish Home Depot (et al) would be required to see a permit and record the number before they sold one The butthead that installed my WH the last time around certainly could have used inspecting. Thank God I had already installed a CO detector because he had not attached the flue pipe to the chimney correctly and a week after the install it just fell off. Unlike car exhaust, there was no tell-tale odor of any kind (I realize CO is odorless, but with cars, you can usually smell exhaust gas). -- Bobby G. |
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
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... On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 12:59:18 -0500, Art Todesco wrote: No, I'm not worried about the UL thing. I've seen many UL devices burst into flames. And, I have some home made stuff which is certainly not UL ... maybe the individual part are, but not the whole thing. My plan for the XTB would be to install it in a box next to the panel. It sounds like a safe plan to me. As long as it is behind a suitable breaker you might see some smoke but the fire should be safely inside the box and the breaker should stop it. That is all we expect from any electrical equipment. If it is not within the scope of a permit, I doubt an inspector would even give it a glance. They don't just come in and demand to see your stuff. We have one inspector in this jurisdiction who's a real SOB. Some of them like to go beyond checking for a safe installation and wander into the harrassment zone. Of course, when I grew up in NYC the inspectors would pretty openly solicit bribes, so I guess it could always be worse. (-:] Apparently at least some NYC inspectors are following in the grand old tradition: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1549898 -- Bobby G. |
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
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... On Mon, 03 Mar 2014 13:25:10 -0600, bud-- wrote: I think if an installation was passed by the AHJ an insurance company would have trouble denying coverage. And I would think it would have to be rather blatant to allow non-coverage. [Maybe installing a subpanel?] I always hear these stories about insurance "might be" denied for unlicensed work but I think it is bull****. Most fires in homes are caused by people doing something stupid and they still get paid. When I worked doing litigation support for several DC law firms, insurers were reluctant to deny claims because of the potential penalties imposed by the insurance commission. However, they were more than happy to subrogate. That means after they paid the homeowner/business owner they then went after any party they believed had contributed to the fire, especially those with deep pockets. -- Bobby G. |
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
On 3/6/2014 11:27 AM, Robert Green wrote:
The butthead that installed my WH the last time around certainly could have used inspecting. Thank God I had already installed a CO detector because he had not attached the flue pipe to the chimney correctly and a week after the install it just fell off. Unlike car exhaust, there was no tell-tale odor of any kind (I realize CO is odorless, but with cars, you can usually smell exhaust gas). -- Bobby G. Glad that got discovered, and didn't lead to illness or worse. I got to replace a length of flue pipe one time for a WH, the power company guy noticed and redtagged the unit. Not much room to work, and it was a real challenge. Perforated galvanized strap makes up for a lot of lack of man hands. My arms are too short. -- .. Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .. |
#23
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
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... stuff snipped In SW Florida, Lee County particularly, there is not much emphasis on catching homeowners doing unpermitted activity. They do try to catch unlicensed or unpermitted activity by 3d parties but this is more in the vein of consumer protection than revenue. Generally it is complaint driven or, occasionally, an inspector will see a job in progress and there is no permit on record or the trucks do not have a license number on them. I've seen that happen to a number of house-flippers on the various "Flip This House" TV shows, especially concerning outside work like redoing steps leading up to the house. You still have the right to refuse entry into your house without a warrant and they seldom ask unless they can just cajole you into thinking having them taking a look at the work you are having done is a good thing. Yeah, that's like cops trying to convince a suspect to "get ahead of this thing" before you get into real trouble. Don't believe it! The "contractor" himself is still subject to being accosted when he comes outside and they can call the sheriff if the guy is hard to get along with. Generally this will just be an administrative action if the guy has a license. That's a big IF. This is separated from the tax man. I'd like to get "separated from the tax man." Permanently! That is a separate agency that uses aerial photos and biannual on site inspections to get their money. If you can see it outside the house, it will show up on your tax bill, even if nobody ever mentions it to you. Been there, done that with the damn central AC that I no longer even use. One year I challenged my assessment and boy oh boy did they ever lace into me with every inspector/inspection they could think of. The "message" was "don't challenge us - EVER!" -- Bobby G. |
#24
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
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... stuff snipped We have one inspector in this jurisdiction who's a real SOB. Some of them like to go beyond checking for a safe installation and wander into the harrassment zone. Of course, when I grew up in NYC the inspectors would pretty openly solicit bribes, so I guess it could always be worse. (-:] Apparently at least some NYC inspectors are following in the grand old tradition: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...-big-house-bri bes-article-1.1549898 I can honestly say bribes are very rare around here. I think it's mostly a big city problem. My Chicagoland friend tells me his dad used to leave folded $20s stuck in places the inspector was sure to find and they always disappeared without comment but with final approval stickers. I guess bribing inspectors to overlook violations still does not keep the lawyers away and there are to many ways to seek recourse if the inspector is just making up a violation to get a bribe. The guy in the Daily News article was a junkie so it's apparent that the inspection bureau's a little lax in inspecting their own workers. A long, LONG time ago when I worked installing restaurant software systems, the DC inspectors were notorious for taking bribes because even a day's shutdown could have such serious consequences for the owners. A lot of it was "iffy" sort of stuff that a different inspector could easily overlook. I'm betting that the world of microcameras and video recorders have really slowed down the inspectors that take bribes because once you get one of them on film taking money, you basically own them. (-: For every tall wall, there's a taller ladder somewhere. -- Bobby G. |
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
On Thu, 6 Mar 2014 20:07:45 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote: I think it's mostly a big city problem. My Chicagoland friend tells me his dad used to leave folded $20s stuck in places the inspector was sure to find and they always disappeared without comment but with final approval stickers. From what I've seen it's mostly the contractors using codes to threaten bringing the inspector's down on you. Then they work together. I was somewhat involved back in the late '70's when Mirage was going on. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirage_Tavern Kid across burned his garage down when his motorcycle caught on fire. It burned my garages and took out an electrical service leg to my 2-flat. Com Ed said I needed a new service before they could do the new leg. My service was a 30-amp fuse box from the '20's. That got the inspection dept involved. The inspector was okay. He walked through the basement, pointed out a couple things to fix. A hanging light and an uncovered junction box. He very pointedly said "I'm not going upstairs." And then he repeated it. Of course codes required a lot more outlets in the intervening 50 years. I couldn't afford to rehab my entire electrical. The inspector at least suspected that. Then I began calling contractors. I liked the first guy. Just trusted him as honest. Wanted $500 for the job. The second contractor gave me a cost almost twice a high. $900. I told him about the first estimate and asked why his price was so much higher. He said the guy wasn't licensed, and bought his permits. He was pretty "outraged" about it. After thinking briefly about the cost of inspector problems I decided to go with him. An outfit called McCoy electric. I called the first guy up and told him, and told him what McCoy had said. He admitted he wasn't licensed, but said the work would be legal and pass inspection. I told him I wasn't taking chances. I called McCoy back and he said he'd come over, and he did. Riding a new Honda Goldwing. So he wants to go upstairs. I told him the inspector wasn't going upstairs. He wasn't hearing me, and started talking about his "reputation" and insisted on checking out the 2 apartments upstairs. Didn't matter to him the inspector wasn't going upstairs. I got hot at him trying to inflate the job beyond what he done already with his price, and told him we're done, and I swear to God I had to chase him out the front door. He was hot too, but backed away. I went right to the phone and called the first guy - 5th Avenue Electric - back and told him he had the job. He was surprised, said he thought he "lost me." Tell you the truth, I still had misgivings until he came out and explained some things to me about permits. I wasn't worried about the inspector. Solid and meant what he said. Anyway he and some of his brothers did the job in a day, including some extra work upstairs fishing wire to new boxes and adding some wall switches. One new circuit. $25 a box with me doing the plaster. I didn't have the extra $300 or so. He just said pay me when you have it. He did borrow some books from me, but returned them before I paid him off. Camping books. We both had an interest in that. They were 11 brothers in the business their dad started years ago. The city had pulled their license because they wouldn't "cooperate." They had no problem getting permits. Their licensed friends pulled them. Funny. You only need to be licensed to pull permits, not to do the work. The dad was wearing a wire for the feds, but his kid was mum about that. Mike Royko featured him in a column about a year later when the scandal broke, praising him. The inspector didn't go up upstairs. You know, I didn't like that McCoy prick as soon as I saw that Goldwing. Gave me bad vibes. OTOH, I had the service in this house upgraded in '98 so I could install central air. Got about 3 estimates. The third guy pulls up in a Mercedes. I asked him why he's driving a Mercedes to an estimate. He explained it was a "classic," and he got it cheap from his girlfriend's mom, and he liked driving it. Young guy, strong and a hustler. He was low bidder and he got the job. Threw in an extra circuit. Unless the inspection department gets involved, such as a service, I don't get permits. But I want it checked by a licensed guy. For plumbing I just do it. But I check the codes. |
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
"Vic Smith" wrote in message
wrote: I think it's mostly a big city problem. My Chicagoland friend tells me his dad used to leave folded $20s stuck in places the inspector was sure to find and they always disappeared without comment but with final approval stickers. From what I've seen it's mostly the contractors using codes to threaten bringing the inspector's down on you. Then they work together. I was somewhat involved back in the late '70's when Mirage was going on. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirage_Tavern It's been a long time since anyone mentioned the Mirage sting operation. Caught a lot of fish. The series was initially awarded the Pulitzer Prize for general reporting, but the jury's decision was overturned by the Pulitzer board when editor Ben Bradlee of the Washington Post led an attack on the grounds that the reporters used undercover reporting, a form of deception, to report the story Wow! An incredible piece of reporting that peeled back the skin of corruption and Bradlee whines like a baby. At least that confirms what my journo friends who worked at the WP said: "BB was a dick." He put his no-talent wife in as an editor, bypassing much better qualified people who had been in line for years, to howls of derision. You can read about his Boston blueblood heritage he http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Bradlee Kid across burned his garage down when his motorcycle caught on fire. It burned my garages and took out an electrical service leg to my 2-flat. Com Ed said I needed a new service before they could do the new leg. My service was a 30-amp fuse box from the '20's. I lived in that house! That got the inspection dept involved. The inspector was okay. He walked through the basement, pointed out a couple things to fix. A hanging light and an uncovered junction box. He very pointedly said "I'm not going upstairs." And then he repeated it. I think they're like cops in that they're allowed to ignore things that are not in "plain sight" as they go about their duties. But as I said elsewhere, some can be nice and others are real SOB's with some sort of axe to grind. Some, like the one who bedeviled my friend in another county, seem to believe homeowners should NOT do their own work. stuff snipped throughout The second contractor gave me a cost almost twice a high. $900. It always upsets me when the deltas between estimates are so great. You just gotta wonder. stuff snipped Riding a new Honda Goldwing. So he wants to go upstairs. I told him the inspector wasn't going upstairs. He wasn't hearing me, and started talking about his "reputation" and insisted on checking out the 2 apartments upstairs. Didn't matter to him the inspector wasn't going upstairs. Some guys are legitimately concerned about their reputations and don't want to do what they beleive are half-assed jobs. I probably would have wanted to "go upstairs" (sounds like a Monty Python skit!) myself just to get the whole lay of the land. But by this time he had already given off bad vibes so I see why it bothered you. I got hot at him trying to inflate the job beyond what he done already with his price, and told him we're done, and I swear to God I had to chase him out the front door. He was hot too, but backed away. Nothing like wondering if you're going to have to draw down on a "houseguest" like that. Had it happen once with someone who actually refused to leave. Apparently some people don't know the rules concerning visitors to private property and that when asked to leave, they have to or else very bad things can happen. To them. I had one guy who refused to leave arrested. I called the cops and told them I had an "unwelcome guest" and he was stupid enough to refuse an order from the cops to leave when they arrived. I should be clear that it wasn't a contractor, but a neighbor in the middle of a serious domestic dispute. I may have my reservations about handing CCW's out like M&M's, but I strongly believe in the castle doctine. Don't Fu& With Me on My Home Turf. Anyway he and some of his brothers did the job in a day, including some extra work upstairs fishing wire to new boxes and adding some wall switches. One new circuit. $25 a box with me doing the plaster. I didn't have the extra $300 or so. He just said pay me when you have it. Kewl. It's sometimes amazing how fast you can establish a rapport with people - or an intense dislike. I think 100K years of evolution have helped us quickly establish friend from foe. He did borrow some books from me, but returned them before I paid him off. Camping books. We both had an interest in that. They were 11 brothers in the business their dad started years ago. Like the Czech brothers who built my family's second new house. I have a friend with six brothers (and no sisters) who are all pretty handy and they can do incredible amounts of work in one session because they work like clones and they all help each other. Ironically, when he had his own family he had four daughters and no sons. The city had pulled their license because they wouldn't "cooperate." They had no problem getting permits. Their licensed friends pulled them. Funny. You only need to be licensed to pull permits, not to do the work. For every tall wall, someone's got a taller ladder. (-: The dad was wearing a wire for the feds, but his kid was mum about that. I would be too, especially in Chicago or New York where the mob's likely to have a finger in the pie, if not a whole fist. Mike Royko featured him in a column about a year later when the scandal broke, praising him. Ah, yes. A Chicago legend who told Rupert Murdoch his papers weren't fit to wrap fish. Unless the inspection department gets involved, such as a service, I don't get permits. But I want it checked by a licensed guy. For plumbing I just do it. But I check the codes. I hear you. I had the first dual skinny inspected simply because my wife demanded we do it by the book. Once she figured out that I wasn't going to burn the house down she relaxed. We techies often forget how non-technical people react to stuff like wiring. They've been warned since they were toddlers about how dangerous electricity is. My wife was reluctant to even open the breaker panel door to reset a tripped breaker - until I showed her how well insulated things are on the outside compared to the dangers that lurk within. She saw bare copper ground wires touching each other and got freaked out all over again because she thought they shouldn't be touching - or bare. I eventually was able to explain stuff but she's still queasy about the ground wires being connected to the neutral wires coming from the pole. -- Bobby G. |
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
On Fri, 7 Mar 2014 10:27:00 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote: Some guys are legitimately concerned about their reputations and don't want to do what they beleive are half-assed jobs. I probably would have wanted to "go upstairs" (sounds like a Monty Python skit!) myself just to get the whole lay of the land. But by this time he had already given off bad vibes so I see why it bothered you. The guy was trying to inflate the work I called him to do. When an inspector says I'm not going upstairs, that's it. Common with old buildings just needing a new service. Jesus, if new codes were enforced on old buildings it would never end. I got hot at him trying to inflate the job beyond what he done already with his price, and told him we're done, and I swear to God I had to chase him out the front door. He was hot too, but backed away. Nothing like wondering if you're going to have to draw down on a "houseguest" like that. Had it happen once with someone who actually refused to leave. Apparently some people don't know the rules concerning visitors to private property and that when asked to leave, they have to or else very bad things can happen. To them. Sounds like fun. Only other time it happened was with an insurance salesman. The guy actually walked into the open front door from the vestibule to the living room, while a birthday party for my little daughter was going on. I was like WTF, who are you? He still tried to sell me insurance. Again, like the electrical contractor, he couldn't take "no" for an answer, and I came close to using physical force to remove him. Unbelievable. Mike Royko featured him in a column about a year later when the scandal broke, praising him. Ah, yes. A Chicago legend who told Rupert Murdoch his papers weren't fit to wrap fish. The Daily News was the worst of the Chicago papers in terms of coverage. I subscribed to read Royko. Unless the inspection department gets involved, such as a service, I don't get permits. But I want it checked by a licensed guy. For plumbing I just do it. But I check the codes. I hear you. I had the first dual skinny inspected simply because my wife demanded we do it by the book. Once she figured out that I wasn't going to burn the house down she relaxed. We techies often forget how non-technical people react to stuff like wiring. They've been warned since they were toddlers about how dangerous electricity is. I'm not technical enough to know what "dual skinny" is. Haven't read this entire thread. My wife was reluctant to even open the breaker panel door to reset a tripped breaker - until I showed her how well insulated things are on the outside compared to the dangers that lurk within. She saw bare copper ground wires touching each other and got freaked out all over again because she thought they shouldn't be touching - or bare. I eventually was able to explain stuff but she's still queasy about the ground wires being connected to the neutral wires coming from the pole. I've got 2-wire here. When I had a plumber replace my lift system pump, I knew enough to tell him I wouldn't trust the switch, and asked if he didn't want me to turn off the breaker. Naw, its okay. Until he got zapped. Wired backwards. I don't trust switches. |
#28
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
On Fri, 7 Mar 2014 10:27:00 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote: Nothing like wondering if you're going to have to draw down on a "houseguest" like that. Had it happen once with someone who actually refused to leave. Apparently some people don't know the rules concerning visitors to private property and that when asked to leave, they have to or else very bad things can happen. To them. My advice, and it applies to girls too when a guy won't leave, is to say, "I have to call a buddy" or "I have to call a my friend, Sue", but really call 911. One can dial 4 or 7 more numbers after 911 and it won't change anything, I'm sure. And the first thing out of one's mouth when on the phone should be the name and an identifier or descriptor (like, the guy who lives two doors down), in case he takes the phone away and starts to hit you, before you get to the part of the sentence with his name., but as one were talking to a friend and not the police. Don't do this with speakerphone and hold the phone close to the ear so he probably won't hear. "Joe Blip is here, the guy who works at Western Electric, and he's blah blah. Maybe if you came over and he could tell us/show us both at the same time, he'd feel his visit was worthwhile" or whatever. In the movies, the girl always turns her back on the guy who won't leave, and that makes sense if she's going to say, "Can you send a policeman here right now" but if one uses code, she can face the intruder and dodge him when he starts to strangle her. I had one guy who refused to leave arrested. I called the cops and told them I had an "unwelcome guest" and he was stupid enough to refuse an order Wow from the cops to leave when they arrived. I should be clear that it wasn't a contractor, but a neighbor in the middle of a serious domestic dispute. |
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
On Fri, 07 Mar 2014 12:13:57 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote: Sounds like fun. Only other time it happened was with an insurance salesman. The guy actually walked into the open front door from the vestibule to the living room, while a birthday party for my little daughter was going on. I was like WTF, who are you? He still tried to sell me insurance. Again, like the electrical contractor, he couldn't take "no" for an answer, and I came close to using physical force to remove him. Unbelievable. With a home insurance salesman, you say, "I want to show you this problem with the sidewalk, or drain" and when you two get outside, you go back inside. Mike Royko featured him in a column about a year later when the scandal broke, praising him. Ah, yes. A Chicago legend who told Rupert Murdoch his papers weren't fit to wrap fish. The Daily News was the worst of the Chicago papers in terms of coverage. I subscribed to read Royko. I read Royko too when I lived in Chcago. |
#30
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
wrote in message
... On Fri, 07 Mar 2014 16:13:58 -0500, micky wrote: On Fri, 7 Mar 2014 10:27:00 -0500, "Robert Green" wrote: Nothing like wondering if you're going to have to draw down on a "houseguest" like that. Had it happen once with someone who actually refused to leave. Apparently some people don't know the rules concerning visitors to private property and that when asked to leave, they have to or else very bad things can happen. To them. My advice, and it applies to girls too when a guy won't leave, is to say, "I have to call a buddy" or "I have to call a my friend, Sue", but really call 911. One can dial 4 or 7 more numbers after 911 and it won't change anything, I'm sure. And the first thing out of one's mouth when on the phone should be the name and an identifier or descriptor (like, the guy who lives two doors down), in case he takes the phone away and starts to hit you, before you get to the part of the sentence with his name., but as one were talking to a friend and not the police. Don't do this with speakerphone and hold the phone close to the ear so he probably won't hear. "Joe Blip is here, the guy who works at Western Electric, and he's blah blah. Maybe if you came over and he could tell us/show us both at the same time, he'd feel his visit was worthwhile" or whatever. In the movies, the girl always turns her back on the guy who won't leave, and that makes sense if she's going to say, "Can you send a policeman here right now" but if one uses code, she can face the intruder and dodge him when he starts to strangle her. I had one guy who refused to leave arrested. I called the cops and told them I had an "unwelcome guest" and he was stupid enough to refuse an order Wow from the cops to leave when they arrived. I should be clear that it wasn't a contractor, but a neighbor in the middle of a serious domestic dispute. Before you get too macho about what you can do about a stranger who won't leave after you invite them in. my friend did 7 years on a Maryland murder beef for fighting with a guy who wouldn't leave. He was supposed to call the cops and/or run away. I hope you noticed in both my and Micky's response that calling the cops is of the utmost importance. It's the difference between what Zimmerman did and Dunn, the loud music shooter did NOT do. Zimmerman was acquitted, Dunn was convicted. I don't know the circumstances of your friend, but I can't help but wonder if he had a public defender or some seriously bad legal representation. Once the police (and the guest) are made aware that the guest is no longer wanted, the guest's legal position deteriorates, especially if on the 911 recording the guest is clearly quite belligerent in his refusal to leave. Could I have just gunned him down in cold blood for refusing to leave? Sure, but I would be guilty of murder. Would I be guilty of murder if he came at me with a heavy bowling trophy he picked up from the shelf before I shot him? Probably not. Would I be guilty of murder if I put the trophy in his dead hand after I killed him in cold blood? Morally, but I would be legally very hard to convict if no one saw me do it. In Maryland, IIRC, you can't (usually) meet non-lethal force WITH greater (lethal) force. But there are exceptions. I am not sure of the details of your friend's case, but when you're in your own home, at least in Maryland, the duty to retreat does not apply. If you're elderly and crippled by arthritis, for example, the duty to retreat also does not apply even outside the home. Maryland also follows the common law rule that, outside of one's home, a person, before using deadly force in self-defense, has the duty "'to retreat or avoid danger if such means were within his power and consistent with his safety.'" DeVaughn v. State, 232 Md. 447, 453, 194 A.2d 109, 112 (1963), cert. denied, 376 U.S. 527 (1964), quoting Bruce v. State, 218 Md. 87, 97, 145 A.2d 428, 433 (1958) The duty to retreat also does not apply if one is attacked in one's own home. "[A] man faced with the danger of an attack upon his dwelling need not retreat from his home to escape the danger, but instead may stand his ground and, if necessary to repel the attack, may kill the attacker." Crawford v. State, 231 Md. 354, 361, 190 A.2d 538, 541 (1963) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_o...se_in_Maryland In my case I had no real duty to retreat and I had pretty certain knowledge that he had just seriously beaten his wife and was acting as if he meant to finish the job (she was hiding upstairs with my wife). The prudent thing was to wait for the cops, who came quickly and once they examined his driver's license and determined he had no legal right to be there, told him to leave. When he said "you can't tell me what to do on private property" the two cops lifted him straight out of the chair, one on each arm and then dragged him out to the patrol car where they homogenized him a bit before handcuffing him and taking him away to be booked - not for trespassing but resisting arrest, a much more serious crime. -- Bobby G. |
#31
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Is a UL listing mandatory for specialized electrical equipment?
wrote in message ... On Sun, 2 Mar 2014 12:15:33 -0500, "Robert Green" wrote: wrote in message news On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 18:11:06 -0500, "Robert Green" stuff snipped Now I am considering hard-wiring the unit to the panel and would like to find out if the AHJ will freak out because the device is not UL listed and what the issues are relating to non-listed equipment. It's much harder to hide once it's permanently connected. One of the problems other X-10 users have run into is that some inspectors have absolutely no idea what X-10 is nor do they want to know. If you don't have an open permit, how is the AHJ going to know you have this thing and if you do get a permit later, this will be "existing" and if it is not in the scope of the new permit, they still will not say anything most of the time.. The NSA will tell them. Or Yahoo will hijack my webcam and show them. humor alert It would be my luck that they took pictures or good notes. I know, arf arf. Thanks, I'm not as worried as I was. Here's a different question. A long time ago when I had central air installed, they added a breaker to my breaker box and ran wiring to the outside to a disconnect and then to the A/C but no one ever came to inspect their work. Do A/C installers get a "pass" for things like that? Not legally but it does happen a lot. Another example is a water heater. Most are replaced without a permit, most AHJs think they need one. I have even heard CBOs saying they wish Home Depot (et al) would be required to see a permit and record the number before they sold one http://www.kansascity.com/2014/03/08...navlink=subnav Permits are lacking on many home furnace replacement jobs in area A review by The Star of public records from Kansas City, Lee's Summit, Overland Park and Olathe tracking the replacement of residential heating and cooling units in 2013 determined that permits were rarely pulled. The records showed that some of the area's well-known and established heating and cooling companies took out few if any permits. This means many homeowners don't get safety inspections to ensure carbon monoxide is vented properly. |
#32
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Is a UL listing mandatory for 911 calls?
micky posted for all of us...
And I know how to SNIP A lot of babble gone. Every 911 call here is dispatched! Kids playing with the phone, overseas country code mistakes... even with a call back to disregard, gets police response. -- Tekkie |
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