Specifically an X-10 coupler/repeater that's mounted next to the circuit
panel in an ABS enclosure and connected to both phases via a tandem breaker.

Will my AHJ freak out because it's not UL listed?

TIA,

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 06:21:31 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

Specifically an X-10 coupler/repeater that's mounted next to the circuit
panel in an ABS enclosure and connected to both phases via a tandem
breaker.

Will my AHJ freak out because it's not UL listed?

TIA,

Depends on the inspector. They certainly can tag it if they want to.
What is the scope of the permit you have?

Who said I had a permit? (-: We don't need no stinkin' permits.

This is concerning possibly changing the current setup. I had extensive
discussions about the potential hazards of using a non-listed device with
its creator who assured me that the enclosure he selected would contain any
mayhem. To avoid inspection hassles, I ended up wiring the device through a
240VAC outlet that I installed (that did pass inspection after I corrected a
nicked wire around a screw terminal). The inspector never questioned the
repeater/coupler because he never saw it.

Now I am considering hard-wiring the unit to the panel and would like to
find out if the AHJ will freak out because the device is not UL listed and
what the issues are relating to non-listed equipment. It's much harder to
hide once it's permanently connected. One of the problems other X-10 users
have run into is that some inspectors have absolutely no idea what X-10 is
nor do they want to know.

--
Bobby G.

On 2/26/2014 6:21 AM, Robert Green wrote:
Specifically an X-10 coupler/repeater that's mounted next to the circuit
panel in an ABS enclosure and connected to both phases via a tandem breaker.

Will my AHJ freak out because it's not UL listed?

TIA,

--
Bobby G.


Looks like you're going to use one the Jeff Volp XTB repeaters, right?
I've been
looking to get one for some time. I'm using the regular X10 repeater
(XPCR) now
and, in this location, it seems to work ok ... although it has had some
issues. AT
Christmas, when I use many modules, I had, just for one evening, a
situation where
my 1132CU was picking up constant 'noise' and blinking its light. I
suspect that the
XPCR was sending out some random stuff, but really don't know. I saw
this in my
more suburban house a few years ago and in fact, couldn't use the XPCR
at all. It
generated so much noise, it would block or generate its own X10 signals.
Here in a more rural setting, it seems to work ok. The XTB unit is not
UL approved,
unfortunately ... especially, if you opt to save a few $$$ and buy it in
kit form. But,
the reviews seem to say it's the best unit out there for x10 repeating.
BTW,
I know it's wrong, but I have my present XPCR hidden inside the breaker
box, so it's
not easy to see the LEDs on it, but keeps it from being easily seen.

"Art Todesco" wrote in message
...
On 2/26/2014 6:21 AM, Robert Green wrote:

stuff snipped

Looks like you're going to use one the Jeff Volp XTB repeaters, right?

Yes, I actually have a few because I was one of his beta testers from the
very get-go and ended up with every piece of equipment he ever designed.

I've been looking to get one for some time. I'm using the regular X10
repeater
(XPCR) now and, in this location, it seems to work ok ... although it has
had some
issues.

I have that unit - a lot cheaper than the XTB-II but you really get what you
pay for. The problem with the XPCR is that it doesn't substantially boost
the signal. The XTB-II can detect very weak X-10 signals smaller than 100mv
and boosts them to around 25 volts. That's why very little on the market
compares, performance-wise.

Jeff's also worked very hard on perfecting the firmware which means
accounting for the many devices that *almost* follow the X-10 protocol.
IIRC, the biggest issue is that some device makers put the X-10 signal out
at the wrong place on AC cycle - slightly before or after the location
specified by the protocol and that has some pretty serious repercussions in
trying to design a repeater. Creating something like an X-10 repeater that
has to deal with devices from dozens of different manufacturers (some of
them extinct!) is quite a challenge.

AT Christmas, when I use many modules, I had, just for one evening, a
situation where my 1132CU was picking up constant 'noise' and blinking its
light. I
suspect that the XPCR was sending out some random stuff, but really don't
know.

I had a Leviton repeater that would go into a "babel" mode when you hit it
with just the right command (dimming, IIRC - that's hard for a repeater to
handle because of the open-ended nature of such commands). The unit would
start sending out fragments of legit X-10 commands (one reason a meter is
now a necessity) in an endless cascade. That meant *nothing* in the house
worked because the powerline was taken over by a strong, thoroughly
corrupted string of signals.

I am ashamed to say that first unit (the Leviton) was installed in the
panel, temporarily, with jumper cables. EEEK! (-: It didn't stay there
long because of all the trouble it caused. I was about to trash my X-10
setup. I posted a note in CHA about the repeater problems and Jeff
contacted me about testing his new repeater. The rest, as they say, is
history.

I saw
this in my more suburban house a few years ago and in fact, couldn't use
the XPCR
at all. It generated so much noise, it would block or generate its own
X10 signals.

I also had a bad CM11A that would start spewing commands endlessly when it
overheated. They apparently had made a big batch of bad units. The CM11A
was also known to "speak in tongues" if you made a mistake and left the
RS-232 programming cable attached to the CM11A but not the PC.
Here in a more rural setting, it seems to work ok.

The XPCR is OK as a repeater/coupler in simple setups but it lacks it the
incredible power of the XTB-II. It's also missing some very nice features
like a digital input port so you can plug devices like HomeVision or Ocelot
controllers directly into the repeater without needing an intermediate
device like a TW523.

In my house, with the plethora of plug in equipment like switched power
supplies and UPSs (a known X-10 killer) there's just no operating X-10
without the XTB. A while back when I was working on the circuit panel I
disabled the XTB and it became immediately apparent how much the successful
functioning of X-10 now depends on having a powerful coupler/repeater.

The XTB unit is not UL approved, unfortunately ... especially, if you opt
to
save a few $$$ and buy it in kit form.

I only bought the assembled versions because I've never seen anyone solder
as cleanly or professionally as Jeff. I also think it's important to
support small businesses like his. Very few people are making things in the
USA anymore. There's also the small matter of my absymal soldering skills.

We had extensive discussions about getting a UL listing and it's just not
justifiable at his sales volume. Install a 240VAC outlet near the circuit
box (you can use an existing dryer hookup but the closer to the panel, the
stronger the signal). Then you don't have to worry too much about the
inspector.

If you install the XTB-II in a separate metal box it's not very likely that
even a catastrophic failure would do more than melt the components. The
unit is internally fused and installed on a dual breaker that trips both
phase connections if either one causes a trip. Not sure what the right word
for such physically linked breakers is . . . (senior moment)

But, the reviews seem to say it's the best unit out there for x10
repeating.

I agree wholeheartedly and I have tried most of them. I have
repeater/couplers from X-10, ACT, Leviton and more. They are junior
leaguers compared to the XTB line. His XTBM line of meters is also
unmatched for the price. The higher priced one has a built in repeater
check function that tests the repeater function every time the meter is
plugged in. Jeff's one of the most detail-oriented people I know. If for
any reason you had a problem with one of his units, I am sure he would work
very hard to resolve it. I can't recommend his stuff highly enough. Just
look at the pictures of assembled products and you'll see the attention to
detail I am talking about.

http://www.google.com/search?q=xtb+p...&tbm=isch&sa=X

BTW, I know it's wrong, but I have my present XPCR hidden inside the
breaker
box, so it's not easy to see the LEDs on it, but keeps it from being
easily seen.

And you're worried about the XTB's NOT being UL listed?!!! You bad dog,
Art!!!! (-:

--
Bobby G.

On 2/28/2014 5:59 AM, Robert Green wrote:
"Art Todesco" wrote in message
...
On 2/26/2014 6:21 AM, Robert Green wrote:

stuff snipped

Looks like you're going to use one the Jeff Volp XTB repeaters, right?

Yes, I actually have a few because I was one of his beta testers from the
very get-go and ended up with every piece of equipment he ever designed.

I've been looking to get one for some time. I'm using the regular X10
repeater
(XPCR) now and, in this location, it seems to work ok ... although it has
had some
issues.

I have that unit - a lot cheaper than the XTB-II but you really get what you
pay for. The problem with the XPCR is that it doesn't substantially boost
the signal. The XTB-II can detect very weak X-10 signals smaller than 100mv
and boosts them to around 25 volts. That's why very little on the market
compares, performance-wise.

Jeff's also worked very hard on perfecting the firmware which means
accounting for the many devices that *almost* follow the X-10 protocol.
IIRC, the biggest issue is that some device makers put the X-10 signal out
at the wrong place on AC cycle - slightly before or after the location
specified by the protocol and that has some pretty serious repercussions in
trying to design a repeater. Creating something like an X-10 repeater that
has to deal with devices from dozens of different manufacturers (some of
them extinct!) is quite a challenge.

AT Christmas, when I use many modules, I had, just for one evening, a
situation where my 1132CU was picking up constant 'noise' and blinking its
light. I
suspect that the XPCR was sending out some random stuff, but really don't
know.

I had a Leviton repeater that would go into a "babel" mode when you hit it
with just the right command (dimming, IIRC - that's hard for a repeater to
handle because of the open-ended nature of such commands). The unit would
start sending out fragments of legit X-10 commands (one reason a meter is
now a necessity) in an endless cascade. That meant *nothing* in the house
worked because the powerline was taken over by a strong, thoroughly
corrupted string of signals.

I am ashamed to say that first unit (the Leviton) was installed in the
panel, temporarily, with jumper cables. EEEK! (-: It didn't stay there
long because of all the trouble it caused. I was about to trash my X-10
setup. I posted a note in CHA about the repeater problems and Jeff
contacted me about testing his new repeater. The rest, as they say, is
history.

I saw
this in my more suburban house a few years ago and in fact, couldn't use
the XPCR
at all. It generated so much noise, it would block or generate its own
X10 signals.

I also had a bad CM11A that would start spewing commands endlessly when it
overheated. They apparently had made a big batch of bad units. The CM11A
was also known to "speak in tongues" if you made a mistake and left the
RS-232 programming cable attached to the CM11A but not the PC.
Here in a more rural setting, it seems to work ok.

The XPCR is OK as a repeater/coupler in simple setups but it lacks it the
incredible power of the XTB-II. It's also missing some very nice features
like a digital input port so you can plug devices like HomeVision or Ocelot
controllers directly into the repeater without needing an intermediate
device like a TW523.

In my house, with the plethora of plug in equipment like switched power
supplies and UPSs (a known X-10 killer) there's just no operating X-10
without the XTB. A while back when I was working on the circuit panel I
disabled the XTB and it became immediately apparent how much the successful
functioning of X-10 now depends on having a powerful coupler/repeater.

The XTB unit is not UL approved, unfortunately ... especially, if you opt
to
save a few $$$ and buy it in kit form.

I only bought the assembled versions because I've never seen anyone solder
as cleanly or professionally as Jeff. I also think it's important to
support small businesses like his. Very few people are making things in the
USA anymore. There's also the small matter of my absymal soldering skills.

We had extensive discussions about getting a UL listing and it's just not
justifiable at his sales volume. Install a 240VAC outlet near the circuit
box (you can use an existing dryer hookup but the closer to the panel, the
stronger the signal). Then you don't have to worry too much about the
inspector.

If you install the XTB-II in a separate metal box it's not very likely that
even a catastrophic failure would do more than melt the components. The
unit is internally fused and installed on a dual breaker that trips both
phase connections if either one causes a trip. Not sure what the right word
for such physically linked breakers is . . . (senior moment)

But, the reviews seem to say it's the best unit out there for x10
repeating.

I agree wholeheartedly and I have tried most of them. I have
repeater/couplers from X-10, ACT, Leviton and more. They are junior
leaguers compared to the XTB line. His XTBM line of meters is also
unmatched for the price. The higher priced one has a built in repeater
check function that tests the repeater function every time the meter is
plugged in. Jeff's one of the most detail-oriented people I know. If for
any reason you had a problem with one of his units, I am sure he would work
very hard to resolve it. I can't recommend his stuff highly enough. Just
look at the pictures of assembled products and you'll see the attention to
detail I am talking about.

http://www.google.com/search?q=xtb+p...&tbm=isch&sa=X

BTW, I know it's wrong, but I have my present XPCR hidden inside the
breaker
box, so it's not easy to see the LEDs on it, but keeps it from being
easily seen.

And you're worried about the XTB's NOT being UL listed?!!! You bad dog,
Art!!!! (-:

--
Bobby G.


No, I'm not worried about the UL thing. I've seen many UL devices burst
into
flames. And, I have some home made stuff which is certainly not UL ...
maybe
the individual part are, but not the whole thing. My plan for the XTB
would be to
install it in a box next to the panel.

On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 5:21:31 AM UTC-6, Robert Green wrote:
Specifically an X-10 coupler/repeater that's mounted next to the circuit panel in an ABS enclosure and connected to both phases via a tandem breaker.. Will my AHJ freak out because it's not UL listed? TIA, -- Bobby G.

I would be most concerned about my insurance policy and what it says, if anything, about connecting Non-UL stuff to my powerlines. If there was a fire, somehow related to an X10 individual controller, or worse still to the main X10 controller/extender, I think the insurance company could give you a pretty hard time on any claims.

wrote in message
news
On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 18:11:06 -0500, "Robert Green"

stuff snipped

Now I am considering hard-wiring the unit to the panel and would like to
find out if the AHJ will freak out because the device is not UL listed
and
what the issues are relating to non-listed equipment. It's much harder
to
hide once it's permanently connected. One of the problems other X-10
users
have run into is that some inspectors have absolutely no idea what X-10
is
nor do they want to know.

If you don't have an open permit, how is the AHJ going to know you
have this thing and if you do get a permit later, this will be
"existing" and if it is not in the scope of the new permit, they still
will not say anything most of the time..

The NSA will tell them. Or Yahoo will hijack my webcam and show them.
humor alert

It would be my luck that they took pictures or good notes. I know, arf arf.

Thanks, I'm not as worried as I was.

Here's a different question. A long time ago when I had central air
installed, they added a breaker to my breaker box and ran wiring to the
outside to a disconnect and then to the A/C but no one ever came to inspect
their work. Do A/C installers get a "pass" for things like that?

--
Bobby G.

"Art Todesco" wrote in message
...
On 2/28/2014 5:59 AM, Robert Green wrote:
stuff snipped

Looks like you're going to use one the Jeff Volp XTB repeaters, right?
BTW, I know it's wrong, but I have my present XPCR hidden inside the
breaker
box, so it's not easy to see the LEDs on it, but keeps it from being
easily seen.

And you're worried about the XTB's NOT being UL listed?!!! You bad dog,
Art!!!! (-:

No, I'm not worried about the UL thing. I've seen many UL devices burst
into
flames.

Not *too* many, I hope. (-:

And, I have some home made stuff which is certainly not UL ...

Who among the home automators out there doesn't? NOW I remember why I have
been reluctant to schedule an inspection. I had installed Hall-effect
sensors on the incoming mains to monitor power usage in real time. I am
pretty sure they'll never pass inspection. But they are quite useful since
they forced new remote-readable power meters on us without a spinning disk
or any other way to monitor real time usage. )-:

maybe the individual part are, but not the whole thing. My plan for the
XTB
would be to install it in a box next to the panel.

The plastic box the XTB-II comes will melt but shouldn't burn. Stuff that
into a metal panel box and I can't see that it could cause much damage.
Wiring up a 240 outlet right near the circuit panel and using a 240VAC plug
to connect the device is a good alternative, though. I did that at the
start for several reasons - I was comparing the XTB-II to the XPCR and the
ACT units so I mounted all of them on 240VAC twist lock plugs so I could
switch them out for test purposes. If you have an existing dryer outlet,
you could install it there. The length of wire back to the panel will
attenuate the signal a little, but not much.

I want to use the XTB-II outlet for a welder now, so I am looking to
permanently mount the XTB-II because there's not much reason to have it
connected to the outlet anymore. It's proved quite reliable and I learned
what I needed to know from the testing - the other devices can't hold a
candle to the XTB-II because of the 25V signal it puts out compared to 5 to
9 volts for the other units.

Good luck, Art.

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 5:21:31 AM UTC-6, Robert Green wrote:
Specifically an X-10 coupler/repeater that's mounted next to the circuit
panel in an ABS enclosure and connected to both phases via a tandem breaker.
Will my AHJ freak out because it's not UL listed? TIA, -- Bobby G.

I would be most concerned about my insurance policy and what it says, if
anything, about connecting Non-UL stuff to my powerlines. If there was a
fire, somehow related to an X10 individual controller, or worse still to the
main X10 controller/extender, I think the insurance company could give you a
pretty hard time on any claims.

An interesting point. Not sure if it's true (I'll look later) but some
sites claim that the new smart meters aren't UL listed. I will take a look
at my policy just to be sure. Thanks.

--
Bobby G.

On 3/2/2014 9:15 AM, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message
news
On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 18:11:06 -0500, "Robert Green"

stuff snipped

Now I am considering hard-wiring the unit to the panel and would like to
find out if the AHJ will freak out because the device is not UL listed
and
what the issues are relating to non-listed equipment. It's much harder
to
hide once it's permanently connected. One of the problems other X-10
users
have run into is that some inspectors have absolutely no idea what X-10
is
nor do they want to know.

If you don't have an open permit, how is the AHJ going to know you
have this thing and if you do get a permit later, this will be
"existing" and if it is not in the scope of the new permit, they still
will not say anything most of the time..

The NSA will tell them. Or Yahoo will hijack my webcam and show them.
humor alert

It would be my luck that they took pictures or good notes. I know, arf arf.

Thanks, I'm not as worried as I was.

Here's a different question. A long time ago when I had central air
installed, they added a breaker to my breaker box and ran wiring to the
outside to a disconnect and then to the A/C but no one ever came to inspect
their work. Do A/C installers get a "pass" for things like that?

--
Bobby G.


My A/C installer called a licensed electrician who got a permit.
Was inspected. Failed because the breaker they installed did not
have the correct sticker on it.
Breaker had to be replaced.
Inspector didn't even look at the wiring, just the stickers on the
breaker and external disconnect.
In Oregon.

On Sunday, March 2, 2014 12:15:33 PM UTC-5, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message

news
On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 18:11:06 -0500, "Robert Green"



stuff snipped



Now I am considering hard-wiring the unit to the panel and would like to

find out if the AHJ will freak out because the device is not UL listed

and

what the issues are relating to non-listed equipment. It's much harder

to

hide once it's permanently connected. One of the problems other X-10

users

have run into is that some inspectors have absolutely no idea what X-10

is

nor do they want to know.



If you don't have an open permit, how is the AHJ going to know you

have this thing and if you do get a permit later, this will be

"existing" and if it is not in the scope of the new permit, they still

will not say anything most of the time..



The NSA will tell them. Or Yahoo will hijack my webcam and show them.

humor alert



It would be my luck that they took pictures or good notes. I know, arf arf.



Thanks, I'm not as worried as I was.



Here's a different question. A long time ago when I had central air

installed, they added a breaker to my breaker box and ran wiring to the

outside to a disconnect and then to the A/C but no one ever came to inspect

their work. Do A/C installers get a "pass" for things like that?



--

Bobby G.

I guess that would depend on the AHJ. Most places in the US you'd
need an electrical permit for that, the work done by a licensed
electrician or the homeowner, with an inspection.

On 3/2/2014 12:23 PM, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 5:21:31 AM UTC-6, Robert Green wrote:
Specifically an X-10 coupler/repeater that's mounted next to the circuit
panel in an ABS enclosure and connected to both phases via a tandem breaker.
Will my AHJ freak out because it's not UL listed? TIA, -- Bobby G.

The NEC used to have language about parts being "listed". Now parts have
to be "approved", which is defined as "acceptable to the authority
having jurisdiction" (the dreaded AHJ). The AHJ can look to see if the
parts are "listed" or "labeled" as meeting an acceptable standard as
tested by an acceptable testing laboratory.

The change in language was likely to get the NEC out of decisions about
which testing laboratories are acceptable.

The AHJ can use their discretion to accept parts that are not listed or
labeled The NEC has a list of some of the considerations for whether a
part is acceptable.


I would be most concerned about my insurance policy and what it says, if
anything, about connecting Non-UL stuff to my powerlines. If there was a
fire, somehow related to an X10 individual controller, or worse still to the
main X10 controller/extender, I think the insurance company could give you a
pretty hard time on any claims.

An interesting point. Not sure if it's true (I'll look later) but some
sites claim that the new smart meters aren't UL listed. I will take a look
at my policy just to be sure. Thanks.

Utility wiring is explicitly not covered by the NEC. The meter is a
little funny because, for overhead distribution, the riser and meter
socket are owned by the building owner and inspected. Since the meter is
owned by the utility I would guess the inspector would ignore it.

I think if an installation was passed by the AHJ an insurance company
would have trouble denying coverage. And I would think it would have to
be rather blatant to allow non-coverage. [Maybe installing a subpanel?]

If I remember right, you said the link between legs had a fuse. Fuses in
power circuits should be rated for the available fault current where
they are located. The fuse for this is probably "supplementary", and
that probably doesn't apply. I would like to have a fuse that does
comply. The available fault current at a panel is likely 5,000-10,000A.
Fuses with that short circuit rating are quite available. Glass 3AG type
fuses aren't likely a good choice, don't know what you have.

On 3/3/2014 3:08 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 03 Mar 2014 13:25:10 -0600, bud-- wrote:

I think if an installation was passed by the AHJ an insurance company
would have trouble denying coverage. And I would think it would have to
be rather blatant to allow non-coverage. [Maybe installing a subpanel?]

I always hear these stories about insurance "might be" denied for
unlicensed work but I think it is bull****. Most fires in homes are
caused by people doing something stupid and they still get paid.

There was a fairly recent thread here about a fire in CA where an
architect was prosecuted and convicted for installing a fireplace very
wrong, and after he told the building inspector there would be no
fireplace. Some firemen may have died in the fire??

Wonder if the insurance paid on that one.

Another example is a water heater. Most are replaced without a permit,
most AHJs think they need one. I have even heard CBOs saying they wish
Home Depot (et al) would be required to see a permit and record the
number before they sold one

Please elucide -what are AHJ's and CBO's? The acronyms that I normally use don't have those included

"bud--" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 3/2/2014 12:23 PM, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 5:21:31 AM UTC-6, Robert Green wrote:
Specifically an X-10 coupler/repeater that's mounted next to the
circuit
panel in an ABS enclosure and connected to both phases via a tandem
breaker.
Will my AHJ freak out because it's not UL listed? TIA, -- Bobby G.

The NEC used to have language about parts being "listed". Now parts have
to be "approved", which is defined as "acceptable to the authority
having jurisdiction" (the dreaded AHJ). The AHJ can look to see if the
parts are "listed" or "labeled" as meeting an acceptable standard as
tested by an acceptable testing laboratory.

The change in language was likely to get the NEC out of decisions about
which testing laboratories are acceptable.

The AHJ can use their discretion to accept parts that are not listed or
labeled The NEC has a list of some of the considerations for whether a
part is acceptable.

All of this is leading me to want to leave the unit as a plug in and simply
install another 240VAC outlet for the welder downstream of the one that
serves the coupler/repeater.

I would be most concerned about my insurance policy and what it says,
if
anything, about connecting Non-UL stuff to my powerlines. If there was a
fire, somehow related to an X10 individual controller, or worse still to
the
main X10 controller/extender, I think the insurance company could give
you a
pretty hard time on any claims.

An interesting point. Not sure if it's true (I'll look later) but some
sites claim that the new smart meters aren't UL listed. I will take a
look
at my policy just to be sure. Thanks.

Utility wiring is explicitly not covered by the NEC. The meter is a
little funny because, for overhead distribution, the riser and meter
socket are owned by the building owner and inspected. Since the meter is
owned by the utility I would guess the inspector would ignore it.

But that still creates an interesting dilemma if the insurer insists all
things electrical must be UL listed. Excluding the device that supplies
power to the whole house would seem a glaring exception.

I think if an installation was passed by the AHJ an insurance company
would have trouble denying coverage. And I would think it would have to
be rather blatant to allow non-coverage. [Maybe installing a subpanel?]

You bad dog. (-; You do realize you've opened Pandora's box - again.

If I remember right, you said the link between legs had a fuse. Fuses in
power circuits should be rated for the available fault current where
they are located. The fuse for this is probably "supplementary", and
that probably doesn't apply. I would like to have a fuse that does
comply. The available fault current at a panel is likely 5,000-10,000A.
Fuses with that short circuit rating are quite available. Glass 3AG type
fuses aren't likely a good choice, don't know what you have.

I'm kind of embarrassed to say that during beta testing when I noticed no
fuses in the design of the repeater I insisted that an unlisted piece of
equipment *should* have some sort of internal fusing, if only to show a
concern for safety in the design. Jeff told me the worst damage he had seen
was an improperly connected coupler where the traces had lifted off the
circuit board. Now the fuses pop instead. (-:

--
Bobby G.

"mike" wrote in message
...
On 3/2/2014 9:15 AM, Robert Green wrote:

stuff snipped

Here's a different question. A long time ago when I had central air
installed, they added a breaker to my breaker box and ran wiring to the
outside to a disconnect and then to the A/C but no one ever came to
inspect
their work. Do A/C installers get a "pass" for things like that?

My A/C installer called a licensed electrician who got a permit.
Was inspected. Failed because the breaker they installed did not
have the correct sticker on it.
Breaker had to be replaced.
Inspector didn't even look at the wiring, just the stickers on the
breaker and external disconnect.
In Oregon.

Thanks for the data point. It's a little disturbing that the inspector
didn't bother to look at the wiring, just the stickers. If they got the
breaker choice wrong, I might suspect they did something else wrong.

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message news:f2d9e858-b0b9-4322-8da3-
On Sunday, March 2, 2014 12:15:33 PM UTC-5, Robert Green wrote:

stuff snipped

Here's a different question. A long time ago when I had central air
installed, they added a breaker to my breaker box and ran wiring to the
outside to a disconnect and then to the A/C but no one ever came to
inspect
their work. Do A/C installers get a "pass" for things like that?

I guess that would depend on the AHJ. Most places in the US you'd
need an electrical permit for that, the work done by a licensed
electrician or the homeowner, with an inspection.

I often wondered whether they were supposed to call the inspector but didn't
bother. I don't think there's a mechanism for the AHJ to find such
installations. They were the low bidder and they proved it with their less
than stellar work (garbage, knock outs and all sorts of metal stuff left
outside where they could get picked up by the lawnmower).

Lo barato cuesta caro. ("The cheap becomes the expensive")

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 2 Mar 2014 12:15:33 -0500, "Robert Green"

stuff snipped

Here's a different question. A long time ago when I had central air
installed, they added a breaker to my breaker box and ran wiring to the
outside to a disconnect and then to the A/C but no one ever came to
inspect
their work. Do A/C installers get a "pass" for things like that?

Not legally but it does happen a lot.
Another example is a water heater. Most are replaced without a permit,
most AHJs think they need one. I have even heard CBOs saying they wish
Home Depot (et al) would be required to see a permit and record the
number before they sold one

The butthead that installed my WH the last time around certainly could have
used inspecting. Thank God I had already installed a CO detector because he
had not attached the flue pipe to the chimney correctly and a week after the
install it just fell off. Unlike car exhaust, there was no tell-tale odor
of any kind (I realize CO is odorless, but with cars, you can usually smell
exhaust gas).

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 12:59:18 -0500, Art Todesco
wrote:

No, I'm not worried about the UL thing. I've seen many UL devices burst
into
flames. And, I have some home made stuff which is certainly not UL ...
maybe
the individual part are, but not the whole thing. My plan for the XTB
would be to
install it in a box next to the panel.

It sounds like a safe plan to me. As long as it is behind a suitable
breaker you might see some smoke but the fire should be safely inside
the box and the breaker should stop it. That is all we expect from any
electrical equipment.

If it is not within the scope of a permit, I doubt an inspector would
even give it a glance. They don't just come in and demand to see your
stuff.

We have one inspector in this jurisdiction who's a real SOB. Some of them
like to go beyond checking for a safe installation and wander into the
harrassment zone. Of course, when I grew up in NYC the inspectors would
pretty openly solicit bribes, so I guess it could always be worse. (-:]

Apparently at least some NYC inspectors are following in the grand old
tradition:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1549898

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 03 Mar 2014 13:25:10 -0600, bud-- wrote:

I think if an installation was passed by the AHJ an insurance company
would have trouble denying coverage. And I would think it would have to
be rather blatant to allow non-coverage. [Maybe installing a subpanel?]

I always hear these stories about insurance "might be" denied for
unlicensed work but I think it is bull****. Most fires in homes are
caused by people doing something stupid and they still get paid.

When I worked doing litigation support for several DC law firms, insurers
were reluctant to deny claims because of the potential penalties imposed by
the insurance commission. However, they were more than happy to subrogate.
That means after they paid the homeowner/business owner they then went after
any party they believed had contributed to the fire, especially those with
deep pockets.

--
Bobby G.

"bud--" wrote in message
b.com...
On 3/3/2014 3:08 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 03 Mar 2014 13:25:10 -0600, bud-- wrote:

I think if an installation was passed by the AHJ an insurance company
would have trouble denying coverage. And I would think it would have to
be rather blatant to allow non-coverage. [Maybe installing a subpanel?]

I always hear these stories about insurance "might be" denied for
unlicensed work but I think it is bull****. Most fires in homes are
caused by people doing something stupid and they still get paid.

There was a fairly recent thread here about a fire in CA where an
architect was prosecuted and convicted for installing a fireplace very
wrong, and after he told the building inspector there would be no
fireplace. Some firemen may have died in the fire??

Wonder if the insurance paid on that one.

I think all bets are off if you end up killing someone. In those cases
insurers probably feel pretty safe in questioning the claim without fearing
being penalized by the state insurance commission. It also elevates the
situation to being investigated by a government agency. They're likely to
be seen by the commission and the courts as far more impartial than an
insurance investigator.

--
Bobby G.

On 3/6/2014 11:27 AM, Robert Green wrote:
The butthead that installed my WH the last time around certainly could have
used inspecting. Thank God I had already installed a CO detector because he
had not attached the flue pipe to the chimney correctly and a week after the
install it just fell off. Unlike car exhaust, there was no tell-tale odor
of any kind (I realize CO is odorless, but with cars, you can usually smell
exhaust gas).

--
Bobby G.

Glad that got discovered, and didn't lead to
illness or worse.

I got to replace a length of flue pipe one time
for a WH, the power company guy noticed and
redtagged the unit. Not much room to work, and
it was a real challenge. Perforated galvanized
strap makes up for a lot of lack of man hands.
My arms are too short.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

In SW Florida, Lee County particularly, there is not much emphasis on
catching homeowners doing unpermitted activity. They do try to catch
unlicensed or unpermitted activity by 3d parties but this is more in
the vein of consumer protection than revenue. Generally it is
complaint driven or, occasionally, an inspector will see a job in
progress and there is no permit on record or the trucks do not have a
license number on them.

I've seen that happen to a number of house-flippers on the various "Flip
This House" TV shows, especially concerning outside work like redoing steps
leading up to the house.

You still have the right to refuse entry into your house without a
warrant and they seldom ask unless they can just cajole you into
thinking having them taking a look at the work you are having done is
a good thing.

Yeah, that's like cops trying to convince a suspect to "get ahead of this
thing" before you get into real trouble. Don't believe it!

The "contractor" himself is still subject to being accosted when he
comes outside and they can call the sheriff if the guy is hard to get
along with. Generally this will just be an administrative action if
the guy has a license.

That's a big IF.

This is separated from the tax man.

I'd like to get "separated from the tax man." Permanently!

That is a separate agency that
uses aerial photos and biannual on site inspections to get their
money. If you can see it outside the house, it will show up on your
tax bill, even if nobody ever mentions it to you.

Been there, done that with the damn central AC that I no longer even use.
One year I challenged my assessment and boy oh boy did they ever lace into
me with every inspector/inspection they could think of. The "message" was
"don't challenge us - EVER!"

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message
...

stuff snipped

We have one inspector in this jurisdiction who's a real SOB. Some of
them
like to go beyond checking for a safe installation and wander into the
harrassment zone. Of course, when I grew up in NYC the inspectors would
pretty openly solicit bribes, so I guess it could always be worse. (-:]

Apparently at least some NYC inspectors are following in the grand old
tradition:


http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...-big-house-bri
bes-article-1.1549898

I can honestly say bribes are very rare around here.

I think it's mostly a big city problem. My Chicagoland friend tells me his
dad used to leave folded $20s stuck in places the inspector was sure to find
and they always disappeared without comment but with final approval
stickers.

I guess bribing inspectors to overlook violations still does not keep
the lawyers away and there are to many ways to seek recourse if the
inspector is just making up a violation to get a bribe.

The guy in the Daily News article was a junkie so it's apparent that the
inspection bureau's a little lax in inspecting their own workers.

A long, LONG time ago when I worked installing restaurant software systems,
the DC inspectors were notorious for taking bribes because even a day's
shutdown could have such serious consequences for the owners. A lot of it
was "iffy" sort of stuff that a different inspector could easily overlook.
I'm betting that the world of microcameras and video recorders have really
slowed down the inspectors that take bribes because once you get one of them
on film taking money, you basically own them. (-: For every tall wall,
there's a taller ladder somewhere.

--
Bobby G.

On Thu, 6 Mar 2014 20:07:45 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:


I think it's mostly a big city problem. My Chicagoland friend tells me his
dad used to leave folded $20s stuck in places the inspector was sure to find
and they always disappeared without comment but with final approval
stickers.


From what I've seen it's mostly the contractors using codes to
threaten bringing the inspector's down on you.
Then they work together.
I was somewhat involved back in the late '70's when Mirage was going
on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirage_Tavern
Kid across burned his garage down when his motorcycle caught on fire.
It burned my garages and took out an electrical service leg to my
2-flat.
Com Ed said I needed a new service before they could do the new leg.
My service was a 30-amp fuse box from the '20's.
That got the inspection dept involved. The inspector was okay.
He walked through the basement, pointed out a couple things to fix.
A hanging light and an uncovered junction box.
He very pointedly said "I'm not going upstairs."
And then he repeated it.
Of course codes required a lot more outlets in the intervening 50
years.
I couldn't afford to rehab my entire electrical.
The inspector at least suspected that.

Then I began calling contractors. I liked the first guy. Just
trusted him as honest. Wanted $500 for the job.
The second contractor gave me a cost almost twice a high. $900.
I told him about the first estimate and asked why his price was so
much higher. He said the guy wasn't licensed, and bought his permits.
He was pretty "outraged" about it.

After thinking briefly about the cost of inspector problems I decided
to go with him. An outfit called McCoy electric.
I called the first guy up and told him, and told him what McCoy had
said. He admitted he wasn't licensed, but said the work would be
legal and pass inspection. I told him I wasn't taking chances.

I called McCoy back and he said he'd come over, and he did.
Riding a new Honda Goldwing.
So he wants to go upstairs.
I told him the inspector wasn't going upstairs.
He wasn't hearing me, and started talking about his "reputation"
and insisted on checking out the 2 apartments upstairs.
Didn't matter to him the inspector wasn't going upstairs.

I got hot at him trying to inflate the job beyond what he done already
with his price, and told him we're done, and I swear to God I had to
chase him out the front door. He was hot too, but backed away.

I went right to the phone and called the first guy - 5th Avenue
Electric - back and told him he had the job.
He was surprised, said he thought he "lost me."
Tell you the truth, I still had misgivings until he came out and
explained some things to me about permits.
I wasn't worried about the inspector. Solid and meant what he said.

Anyway he and some of his brothers did the job in a day, including
some extra work upstairs fishing wire to new boxes and adding some
wall switches. One new circuit. $25 a box with me doing the plaster.
I didn't have the extra $300 or so. He just said pay me when you have
it.
He did borrow some books from me, but returned them before I paid him
off. Camping books. We both had an interest in that.
They were 11 brothers in the business their dad started years ago.
The city had pulled their license because they wouldn't "cooperate."
They had no problem getting permits. Their licensed friends pulled
them. Funny. You only need to be licensed to pull permits, not to do
the work.
The dad was wearing a wire for the feds, but his kid was mum about
that.
Mike Royko featured him in a column about a year later when the
scandal broke, praising him.
The inspector didn't go up upstairs.

You know, I didn't like that McCoy prick as soon as I saw that
Goldwing. Gave me bad vibes.
OTOH, I had the service in this house upgraded in '98 so I could
install central air.
Got about 3 estimates. The third guy pulls up in a Mercedes.
I asked him why he's driving a Mercedes to an estimate.
He explained it was a "classic," and he got it cheap from his
girlfriend's mom, and he liked driving it.
Young guy, strong and a hustler. He was low bidder and he got the
job. Threw in an extra circuit.

Unless the inspection department gets involved, such as a service,
I don't get permits. But I want it checked by a licensed guy.
For plumbing I just do it. But I check the codes.

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
wrote:

I think it's mostly a big city problem. My Chicagoland friend tells me
his
dad used to leave folded $20s stuck in places the inspector was sure to
find
and they always disappeared without comment but with final approval
stickers.


From what I've seen it's mostly the contractors using codes to
threaten bringing the inspector's down on you.
Then they work together.
I was somewhat involved back in the late '70's when Mirage was going
on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirage_Tavern

It's been a long time since anyone mentioned the Mirage sting operation.
Caught a lot of fish.

The series was initially awarded the Pulitzer Prize for general
reporting, but the jury's decision was overturned by the Pulitzer board when
editor Ben Bradlee of the Washington Post led an attack on the grounds that
the reporters used undercover reporting, a form of deception, to report the
story

Wow! An incredible piece of reporting that peeled back the skin of
corruption and Bradlee whines like a baby. At least that confirms what my
journo friends who worked at the WP said: "BB was a dick." He put his
no-talent wife in as an editor, bypassing much better qualified people who
had been in line for years, to howls of derision. You can read about his
Boston blueblood heritage he

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Bradlee

Kid across burned his garage down when his motorcycle caught on fire.
It burned my garages and took out an electrical service leg to my
2-flat.
Com Ed said I needed a new service before they could do the new leg.
My service was a 30-amp fuse box from the '20's.

I lived in that house!

That got the inspection dept involved. The inspector was okay.
He walked through the basement, pointed out a couple things to fix.
A hanging light and an uncovered junction box.
He very pointedly said "I'm not going upstairs."
And then he repeated it.

I think they're like cops in that they're allowed to ignore things that are
not in "plain sight" as they go about their duties. But as I said
elsewhere, some can be nice and others are real SOB's with some sort of axe
to grind. Some, like the one who bedeviled my friend in another county,
seem to believe homeowners should NOT do their own work.

stuff snipped throughout

The second contractor gave me a cost almost twice a high. $900.

It always upsets me when the deltas between estimates are so great. You
just gotta wonder.

stuff snipped

Riding a new Honda Goldwing.
So he wants to go upstairs.
I told him the inspector wasn't going upstairs.
He wasn't hearing me, and started talking about his "reputation"
and insisted on checking out the 2 apartments upstairs.
Didn't matter to him the inspector wasn't going upstairs.

Some guys are legitimately concerned about their reputations and don't want
to do what they beleive are half-assed jobs. I probably would have wanted
to "go upstairs" (sounds like a Monty Python skit!) myself just to get the
whole lay of the land. But by this time he had already given off bad vibes
so I see why it bothered you.

I got hot at him trying to inflate the job beyond what he done already
with his price, and told him we're done, and I swear to God I had to
chase him out the front door. He was hot too, but backed away.

Nothing like wondering if you're going to have to draw down on a
"houseguest" like that. Had it happen once with someone who actually
refused to leave. Apparently some people don't know the rules concerning
visitors to private property and that when asked to leave, they have to or
else very bad things can happen. To them.

I had one guy who refused to leave arrested. I called the cops and told
them I had an "unwelcome guest" and he was stupid enough to refuse an order
from the cops to leave when they arrived. I should be clear that it wasn't
a contractor, but a neighbor in the middle of a serious domestic dispute. I
may have my reservations about handing CCW's out like M&M's, but I strongly
believe in the castle doctine. Don't Fu& With Me on My Home Turf.

Anyway he and some of his brothers did the job in a day, including
some extra work upstairs fishing wire to new boxes and adding some
wall switches. One new circuit. $25 a box with me doing the plaster.
I didn't have the extra $300 or so. He just said pay me when you have
it.

Kewl. It's sometimes amazing how fast you can establish a rapport with
people - or an intense dislike. I think 100K years of evolution have helped
us quickly establish friend from foe.

He did borrow some books from me, but returned them before I paid him
off. Camping books. We both had an interest in that.
They were 11 brothers in the business their dad started years ago.

Like the Czech brothers who built my family's second new house. I have a
friend with six brothers (and no sisters) who are all pretty handy and they
can do incredible amounts of work in one session because they work like
clones and they all help each other. Ironically, when he had his own family
he had four daughters and no sons.

The city had pulled their license because they wouldn't "cooperate."
They had no problem getting permits. Their licensed friends pulled
them. Funny. You only need to be licensed to pull permits, not to do
the work.

For every tall wall, someone's got a taller ladder. (-:

The dad was wearing a wire for the feds, but his kid was mum about
that.

I would be too, especially in Chicago or New York where the mob's likely to
have a finger in the pie, if not a whole fist.

Mike Royko featured him in a column about a year later when the
scandal broke, praising him.

Ah, yes. A Chicago legend who told Rupert Murdoch his papers weren't fit to
wrap fish.

Unless the inspection department gets involved, such as a service,
I don't get permits. But I want it checked by a licensed guy.
For plumbing I just do it. But I check the codes.

I hear you. I had the first dual skinny inspected simply because my wife
demanded we do it by the book. Once she figured out that I wasn't going to
burn the house down she relaxed. We techies often forget how non-technical
people react to stuff like wiring. They've been warned since they were
toddlers about how dangerous electricity is.

My wife was reluctant to even open the breaker panel door to reset a tripped
breaker - until I showed her how well insulated things are on the outside
compared to the dangers that lurk within. She saw bare copper ground wires
touching each other and got freaked out all over again because she thought
they shouldn't be touching - or bare. I eventually was able to explain
stuff but she's still queasy about the ground wires being connected to the
neutral wires coming from the pole.

--
Bobby G.

On Fri, 7 Mar 2014 10:27:00 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:



Some guys are legitimately concerned about their reputations and don't want
to do what they beleive are half-assed jobs. I probably would have wanted
to "go upstairs" (sounds like a Monty Python skit!) myself just to get the
whole lay of the land. But by this time he had already given off bad vibes
so I see why it bothered you.


The guy was trying to inflate the work I called him to do.
When an inspector says I'm not going upstairs, that's it.
Common with old buildings just needing a new service.
Jesus, if new codes were enforced on old buildings it would never end.

I got hot at him trying to inflate the job beyond what he done already
with his price, and told him we're done, and I swear to God I had to
chase him out the front door. He was hot too, but backed away.

Nothing like wondering if you're going to have to draw down on a
"houseguest" like that. Had it happen once with someone who actually
refused to leave. Apparently some people don't know the rules concerning
visitors to private property and that when asked to leave, they have to or
else very bad things can happen. To them.


Sounds like fun.
Only other time it happened was with an insurance salesman.
The guy actually walked into the open front door from the vestibule to
the living room, while a birthday party for my little daughter was
going on. I was like WTF, who are you?
He still tried to sell me insurance. Again, like the electrical
contractor, he couldn't take "no" for an answer, and I came close to
using physical force to remove him. Unbelievable.

Mike Royko featured him in a column about a year later when the
scandal broke, praising him.

Ah, yes. A Chicago legend who told Rupert Murdoch his papers weren't fit to
wrap fish.


The Daily News was the worst of the Chicago papers in terms of
coverage. I subscribed to read Royko.

Unless the inspection department gets involved, such as a service,
I don't get permits. But I want it checked by a licensed guy.
For plumbing I just do it. But I check the codes.

I hear you. I had the first dual skinny inspected simply because my wife
demanded we do it by the book. Once she figured out that I wasn't going to
burn the house down she relaxed. We techies often forget how non-technical
people react to stuff like wiring. They've been warned since they were
toddlers about how dangerous electricity is.


I'm not technical enough to know what "dual skinny" is.
Haven't read this entire thread.

My wife was reluctant to even open the breaker panel door to reset a tripped
breaker - until I showed her how well insulated things are on the outside
compared to the dangers that lurk within. She saw bare copper ground wires
touching each other and got freaked out all over again because she thought
they shouldn't be touching - or bare. I eventually was able to explain
stuff but she's still queasy about the ground wires being connected to the
neutral wires coming from the pole.

I've got 2-wire here. When I had a plumber replace my lift system
pump, I knew enough to tell him I wouldn't trust the switch, and asked
if he didn't want me to turn off the breaker. Naw, its okay.
Until he got zapped. Wired backwards. I don't trust switches.

On Fri, 7 Mar 2014 10:27:00 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:


Nothing like wondering if you're going to have to draw down on a
"houseguest" like that. Had it happen once with someone who actually
refused to leave. Apparently some people don't know the rules concerning
visitors to private property and that when asked to leave, they have to or
else very bad things can happen. To them.

My advice, and it applies to girls too when a guy won't leave, is to
say, "I have to call a buddy" or "I have to call a my friend, Sue",
but really call 911. One can dial 4 or 7 more numbers after 911 and it
won't change anything, I'm sure. And the first thing out of one's
mouth when on the phone should be the name and an identifier or
descriptor (like, the guy who lives two doors down), in case he takes
the phone away and starts to hit you, before you get to the part of the
sentence with his name., but as one were talking to a friend and not
the police. Don't do this with speakerphone and hold the phone close
to the ear so he probably won't hear.

"Joe Blip is here, the guy who works at Western Electric, and he's blah
blah. Maybe if you came over and he could tell us/show us both at the
same time, he'd feel his visit was worthwhile" or whatever.

In the movies, the girl always turns her back on the guy who won't
leave, and that makes sense if she's going to say, "Can you send a
policeman here right now" but if one uses code, she can face the
intruder and dodge him when he starts to strangle her.

I had one guy who refused to leave arrested. I called the cops and told
them I had an "unwelcome guest" and he was stupid enough to refuse an order

Wow

from the cops to leave when they arrived. I should be clear that it wasn't
a contractor, but a neighbor in the middle of a serious domestic dispute.

On Fri, 07 Mar 2014 12:13:57 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote:


Sounds like fun.
Only other time it happened was with an insurance salesman.
The guy actually walked into the open front door from the vestibule to
the living room, while a birthday party for my little daughter was
going on. I was like WTF, who are you?
He still tried to sell me insurance. Again, like the electrical
contractor, he couldn't take "no" for an answer, and I came close to
using physical force to remove him. Unbelievable.

With a home insurance salesman, you say, "I want to show you this
problem with the sidewalk, or drain" and when you two get outside, you
go back inside.

Mike Royko featured him in a column about a year later when the
scandal broke, praising him.

Ah, yes. A Chicago legend who told Rupert Murdoch his papers weren't fit to
wrap fish.


The Daily News was the worst of the Chicago papers in terms of
coverage. I subscribed to read Royko.

I read Royko too when I lived in Chcago.

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 07 Mar 2014 16:13:58 -0500, micky
wrote:

On Fri, 7 Mar 2014 10:27:00 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:


Nothing like wondering if you're going to have to draw down on a
"houseguest" like that. Had it happen once with someone who actually
refused to leave. Apparently some people don't know the rules
concerning
visitors to private property and that when asked to leave, they have to
or
else very bad things can happen. To them.

My advice, and it applies to girls too when a guy won't leave, is to
say, "I have to call a buddy" or "I have to call a my friend, Sue",
but really call 911. One can dial 4 or 7 more numbers after 911 and it
won't change anything, I'm sure. And the first thing out of one's
mouth when on the phone should be the name and an identifier or
descriptor (like, the guy who lives two doors down), in case he takes
the phone away and starts to hit you, before you get to the part of the
sentence with his name., but as one were talking to a friend and not
the police. Don't do this with speakerphone and hold the phone close
to the ear so he probably won't hear.

"Joe Blip is here, the guy who works at Western Electric, and he's blah
blah. Maybe if you came over and he could tell us/show us both at the
same time, he'd feel his visit was worthwhile" or whatever.

In the movies, the girl always turns her back on the guy who won't
leave, and that makes sense if she's going to say, "Can you send a
policeman here right now" but if one uses code, she can face the
intruder and dodge him when he starts to strangle her.

I had one guy who refused to leave arrested. I called the cops and told
them I had an "unwelcome guest" and he was stupid enough to refuse an
order

Wow

from the cops to leave when they arrived. I should be clear that it
wasn't
a contractor, but a neighbor in the middle of a serious domestic
dispute.

Before you get too macho about what you can do about a stranger who
won't leave after you invite them in. my friend did 7 years on a
Maryland murder beef for fighting with a guy who wouldn't leave.
He was supposed to call the cops and/or run away.

I hope you noticed in both my and Micky's response that calling the cops is
of the utmost importance. It's the difference between what Zimmerman did
and Dunn, the loud music shooter did NOT do. Zimmerman was acquitted, Dunn
was convicted.

I don't know the circumstances of your friend, but I can't help but wonder
if he had a public defender or some seriously bad legal representation.
Once the police (and the guest) are made aware that the guest is no longer
wanted, the guest's legal position deteriorates, especially if on the 911
recording the guest is clearly quite belligerent in his refusal to leave.

Could I have just gunned him down in cold blood for refusing to leave?
Sure, but I would be guilty of murder. Would I be guilty of murder if he
came at me with a heavy bowling trophy he picked up from the shelf before I
shot him? Probably not. Would I be guilty of murder if I put the trophy in
his dead hand after I killed him in cold blood? Morally, but I would be
legally very hard to convict if no one saw me do it.

In Maryland, IIRC, you can't (usually) meet non-lethal force WITH greater
(lethal) force. But there are exceptions. I am not sure of the details of
your friend's case, but when you're in your own home, at least in Maryland,
the duty to retreat does not apply. If you're elderly and crippled by
arthritis, for example, the duty to retreat also does not apply even outside
the home.

Maryland also follows the common law rule that, outside of one's home, a
person, before using deadly force in self-defense, has the duty "'to retreat
or avoid danger if such means were within his power and consistent with his
safety.'" DeVaughn v. State, 232 Md. 447, 453, 194 A.2d 109, 112 (1963),
cert. denied, 376 U.S. 527 (1964), quoting Bruce v. State, 218 Md. 87, 97,
145 A.2d 428, 433 (1958)

The duty to retreat also does not apply if one is attacked in one's own
home. "[A] man faced with the danger of an attack upon his dwelling need not
retreat from his home to escape the danger, but instead may stand his ground
and, if necessary to repel the attack, may kill the attacker." Crawford v.
State, 231 Md. 354, 361, 190 A.2d 538, 541 (1963)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_o...se_in_Maryland

In my case I had no real duty to retreat and I had pretty certain knowledge
that he had just seriously beaten his wife and was acting as if he meant to
finish the job (she was hiding upstairs with my wife).

The prudent thing was to wait for the cops, who came quickly and once they
examined his driver's license and determined he had no legal right to be
there, told him to leave. When he said "you can't tell me what to do on
private property" the two cops lifted him straight out of the chair, one on
each arm and then dragged him out to the patrol car where they homogenized
him a bit before handcuffing him and taking him away to be booked - not for
trespassing but resisting arrest, a much more serious crime.

--
Bobby G.

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 2 Mar 2014 12:15:33 -0500, "Robert Green"
wrote:

wrote in message
news
On Wed, 26 Feb 2014 18:11:06 -0500, "Robert Green"

stuff snipped

Now I am considering hard-wiring the unit to the panel and would like
to
find out if the AHJ will freak out because the device is not UL listed
and
what the issues are relating to non-listed equipment. It's much
harder
to
hide once it's permanently connected. One of the problems other X-10
users
have run into is that some inspectors have absolutely no idea what
X-10
is
nor do they want to know.

If you don't have an open permit, how is the AHJ going to know you
have this thing and if you do get a permit later, this will be
"existing" and if it is not in the scope of the new permit, they still
will not say anything most of the time..

The NSA will tell them. Or Yahoo will hijack my webcam and show them.
humor alert

It would be my luck that they took pictures or good notes. I know, arf
arf.

Thanks, I'm not as worried as I was.

Here's a different question. A long time ago when I had central air
installed, they added a breaker to my breaker box and ran wiring to the
outside to a disconnect and then to the A/C but no one ever came to
inspect
their work. Do A/C installers get a "pass" for things like that?

Not legally but it does happen a lot.
Another example is a water heater. Most are replaced without a permit,
most AHJs think they need one. I have even heard CBOs saying they wish
Home Depot (et al) would be required to see a permit and record the
number before they sold one

http://www.kansascity.com/2014/03/08...navlink=subnav
Permits are lacking on many home furnace replacement jobs in area
A review by The Star of public records from Kansas City, Lee's Summit,
Overland Park and Olathe tracking the replacement of residential heating and
cooling units in 2013 determined that permits were rarely pulled. The
records showed that some of the area's well-known and established heating
and cooling companies took out few if any permits. This means many
homeowners don't get safety inspections to ensure carbon monoxide is vented
properly.

micky posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP

A lot of babble gone.

Every 911 call here is dispatched! Kids playing with the phone, overseas
country code mistakes... even with a call back to disregard, gets police
response.


--
Tekkie