Peter wrote:
On 2/4/2014 4:59 AM, Bubba wrote:
On 02/03/2014 02:44 PM, Peter wrote:
Unfortunate that everyone you know on chronic meds uses incompetent
quack physicians.

Most people go straight to BlubberKing after visiting their doctor
and order a slab of fat and sugar on a bun, a pound of fries and wash
it down with a 64 oz Croke-a-cola. Then they go to their pharmacy.

Most are unwilling to change their diet or read this book:

http://smile.amazon.com/The-China-St.../dp/1932100660




You put it a little cynically, but it's true that too many patients
think that taking meds for a chronic condition insulates them from the
harmful effects of any of their bad habits that have contributed to
their disease.
Hi,
Actually there was an article recently about heart attack survivors.
Worrisome trend is after they survive they go right back to the life
style which caused the problem. No change in life style diet,
exercise, etc. meaning they will likely get second heart attack.

Bubba wrote:
On 02/03/2014 02:44 PM, Peter wrote:
Unfortunate that everyone you know on chronic meds uses incompetent
quack physicians.

Most people go straight to BlubberKing after visiting their doctor and
order a slab of fat and sugar on a bun, a pound of fries and wash it
down with a 64 oz Croke-a-cola. Then they go to their pharmacy.

Most are unwilling to change their diet or read this book:

http://smile.amazon.com/The-China-St.../dp/1932100660

Hi,
MY daughter once mentioned about patient after going home from hospital
stay. Right away soon after they come back with same problem over and
over. Like a professional patient. She said she doesn't feel like
helping him really but as a doctor she is obliged to. She is staff
at local medical school where she graduated.

On 2/3/2014 9:19 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Zaky Waky wrote:
Is anyone participating in or visiting this group under 60 years
old and healthy (not cronicly taking prescripton meds, not
"disabled", not cripped, not whining about how much pain they are
in, not morbidly obese)?

Seems not, except for me.

Hi, Define being healthy? My age is mid-70 I eat well, eliminate
well and sleep very well every night. I do all my routine chores
every day without any difficulty.

Wow Tony, you are doing well. Tell me, have you ever experienced any
debilitating physical injuries and insults to your major joints over
a period of many years? Regardless of the pain it causes me, physical
activity really helps me. When I'm cleaning house or helping my roommate
out on a job, I must stop and sit down every now and then but
the more I move around, my quiescent joint and muscle pain level
decreases to a level which is mitigated by lower doses of my pain
medications. Live long and prosper Tony. ^_^

TDD

On 2/4/2014 10:15 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 2/3/2014 9:28 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 2/3/14 9:00 PM, Peter wrote:

I never said or implied that no physicians accept pharmaceutical
freebies. I said that such freebies rarely meet State standards
for continuing medical education. Personally, I never accepted
those invitations, found private practice too mercenary, and
spent 30 years on active duty as a medical officer in the
military. I happen to agree with your criticism of the
pharmaceutical companies and although physicians cannot be
compelled to sign a promise to prescribe in return for the
freebies, the companies' intent is clearly apparent and those
M.D.s' bias to prescribe accordingly has been well documented,
even when it is a subconscious bias. You jumped to entirely
unwarranted conclusions.

There is a not yet approved method to stop bleeding from gunshots:
http://tinyurl.com/ljdq8c9 (Popular Science)

For some time, soldiers have been using over the counter tampons
produced for monthly female hygiene to plug gunshot wounds. I can
imagine the scene when a medic pulls a pink package out of his pack
while treating a soldier who's been shot. Soldiers are very good at
improvising during times of war. ^_^

TDD

A major military medical research effort for many years has been how to
control bleeding/stabilize severely injured personnel in the field,
prior to their access to surgical care. Both the Army and Navy have
invested in those efforts, and specialized dressings etc. have been
developed which are also finding use in the civilian community, e.g.,
for people in remote areas sustaining severe injuries and for use by
EMTs treating severe trauma.

On 2/4/2014 10:02 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 2/4/2014 9:22 AM, Peter wrote:
I prefer capitalism over socialism. But both are known to bias
the thinking of physicians. I'd rather have doctors carrying
pocket full of Metamucil tongue depressors, opposed to having to
phone a bureaucrat in Washington every time the MD wants to
prescribe acetaminophen.


Bogus assertion. Never happened. Regardless of the system of
practice, physician choices may be constrained by logistical and
financial issues (either the patient's or the medical care system).
How about the common problem of a private physician believing that
a certain med is most appropriate for a specific private patient,
but that patient's insurance won't cover the cost of that med and
it costs far more than the patient can afford out of pocket?

I'd rather have an insurance company be unable to pay for the med (or
the patient) rather than a bureaucrat in Washington denying
permission for the med.


As someone who falls squarely into the category of "Washington
bureaucrat" for the final 14 years of my military medical career, I very
strongly resent the implication of your statement.

On 2/3/2014 6:14 PM, Shadow wrote:
On Sun, 02 Feb 2014 09:55:07 -0700, Tony Hwang
wrote:

Zaky Waky wrote:
Is anyone participating in or visiting this group under 60 years
old and healthy (not cronicly taking prescripton meds, not
"disabled", not cripped, not whining about how much pain they are
in, not morbidly obese)?

Seems not, except for me.

Hi, How about over 70? Except for me? No known family history? I am
talking abbout your gene, how did your dad die? Was he healthy like
you? Are you knocking on the wood?

My father drank like a fish. He died really young, at 79. All my
other relatives have not yet reached 100, or died trying to get
there, except my 2 grandmothers. Is that good ? Hum , probably not.
I'm already bored. []'s

Shad, you must find a hobby such as trudging through the rain forest and
searching for treasure or unusual new species down there in The Southern
Hemisphere. You could go to the beach and watch all the cute
topless girls show off their assets. The only problem with going to the
beach to girl watch is that some really fat ugly ones walk around half
naked too. My Southern Hillbilly grandmother, Granny, lived to be 95 and
one can only wonder about the history she witnessed throughout her long
life. ^_^

TDD

Peter writes:
On 2/4/2014 10:15 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 2/3/2014 9:28 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 2/3/14 9:00 PM, Peter wrote:

I never said or implied that no physicians accept pharmaceutical
freebies. I said that such freebies rarely meet State standards
for continuing medical education. Personally, I never accepted
those invitations, found private practice too mercenary, and
spent 30 years on active duty as a medical officer in the
military. I happen to agree with your criticism of the
pharmaceutical companies and although physicians cannot be
compelled to sign a promise to prescribe in return for the
freebies, the companies' intent is clearly apparent and those
M.D.s' bias to prescribe accordingly has been well documented,
even when it is a subconscious bias. You jumped to entirely
unwarranted conclusions.

There is a not yet approved method to stop bleeding from gunshots:
http://tinyurl.com/ljdq8c9 (Popular Science)

For some time, soldiers have been using over the counter tampons
produced for monthly female hygiene to plug gunshot wounds. I can
imagine the scene when a medic pulls a pink package out of his pack
while treating a soldier who's been shot. Soldiers are very good at
improvising during times of war. ^_^

TDD

A major military medical research effort for many years has been how to
control bleeding/stabilize severely injured personnel in the field,
prior to their access to surgical care. Both the Army and Navy have
invested in those efforts, and specialized dressings etc. have been
developed which are also finding use in the civilian community, e.g.,
for people in remote areas sustaining severe injuries and for use by
EMTs treating severe trauma.

If I recall correctly, it was the military medical folks who pioneered
the use of cyanoacrylate adhesives for wound closure.

In article ,
Stormin Mormon wrote:

On 2/4/2014 8:39 AM, CRNG wrote:
IMO one cause for misunderstanding is the medical profession's
(perhaps unconscious) cultivation of a public aura of infallibly; I.e.
the "..doctor knows best.." aura. I'm guessing that medical pros are
taught early to project a mystique of confidence and certainty so as
to reassure the patient and family that all is under control. And
that is certainly worthwhile. But I do believe it leads to
disappointment when reality sets in.

One friend of mine describes the WCG syndrome,
White Coated God. That's when the MD think's
s/he is infallible.

The Pope died and went to heaven. He tried to butt in line at the Pearly
Gates and was told to wait his turn. He mentioned who he was and that
was God's Representative on earth. St. Peter said "That's nice but up
here everyone is equal."
A few days later, the Pope was standing in line at the Heaven
Cafeteria and this guy with wild white hair, long beard and flowing
robes came in, but in line, got his stuff and left.
The Pope ran into St. Peter and gave his account of what happened
and reminded St. P about the lecture on all being equal.
St. Peter sighed deeply, shook his head sadly and said "That's just
God. He thinks He's a Doctor."
--
³Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive,
but what they conceal is vital.²
‹ Aaron Levenstein

Peter wrote:
On 2/3/2014 7:26 PM, Shadow wrote:
On Mon, 03 Feb 2014 11:08:32 -0500, Peter wrote:

well controlled high blood cholesterol if they were diagnosed and
managed soon after onset

You must be from the new brood. I suppose if someone has
"uncontrolled" high cholesterol, that would make them "disabled".
Gotta larf, what those drug companies stuff down young MD's throats.
They offer me trips to Europe if I prescribe their trash. Ha. Not me,
I'd rather die honest. []'s

I don't think you've read my reply in the context of the original
posting. And, I'm not part of any "new brood"; I'm a senior citizen.

I never said or implied that no physicians accept pharmaceutical
freebies. I said that such freebies rarely meet State standards for
continuing medical education. Personally, I never accepted those
invitations, found private practice too mercenary, and spent 30 years on
active duty as a medical officer in the military. I happen to agree
with your criticism of the pharmaceutical companies and although
physicians cannot be compelled to sign a promise to prescribe in return
for the freebies, the companies' intent is clearly apparent and those
M.D.s' bias to prescribe accordingly has been well documented, even
when it is a subconscious bias. You jumped to entirely unwarranted
conclusions.
Hmm,
Drug cos. make drugs for money not for our health. They spend more on
advertising than for R&D. I chuckle when I see their ads. with the list
of possible side effects in small unreadable font or hushed down voice
on TV. Some people think doctor who give lots of medicine is good
doctor. Statin family drug for Cholesterol? If one takes them, watch
your heart.

The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 2/3/2014 9:19 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Zaky Waky wrote:
Is anyone participating in or visiting this group under 60 years
old and healthy (not cronicly taking prescripton meds, not
"disabled", not cripped, not whining about how much pain they are
in, not morbidly obese)?

Seems not, except for me.

Hi, Define being healthy? My age is mid-70 I eat well, eliminate
well and sleep very well every night. I do all my routine chores
every day without any difficulty.

Wow Tony, you are doing well. Tell me, have you ever experienced any
debilitating physical injuries and insults to your major joints over
a period of many years? Regardless of the pain it causes me, physical
activity really helps me. When I'm cleaning house or helping my roommate
out on a job, I must stop and sit down every now and then but
the more I move around, my quiescent joint and muscle pain level
decreases to a level which is mitigated by lower doses of my pain
medications. Live long and prosper Tony. ^_^

TDD

Hi,
I was very skinny and tall when I was a kid but thru the service and
overseas work I became pretty tough, luckily never had any serious
injury or wound. But had encountered few near dead situations in war
Zone. Since kidney x-plant in '96 I slowed down, took early package,
left Honeywell after 32 years. It came with pension and supplemental
health care support. Only med, I take is anti-rejection drugs supplied
free by health care. I understand some pain drugs are hard on
liver/kidney and bones(better watch them) I am living by 3 months
increment. Blood work every month, visit to specialist every 3 month. So
far all is well. I just replaced our old dish washer in the kitchen.
Should take couple hours but spent good half a day. I am just little
slower now but no pain, no ache, my fingers are always crossed. I want
to see my grand son go to college and get married. I walk our dog twice
a day 2Km each time. Today it is -22 deg. C and we went out. Dog is part
Husky he just loves cold and snow, LOL!.

Unfortunate that everyone you know on chronic meds uses incompetent
quack physicians.

Most people go straight to BlubberKing after visiting their doctor and
order a slab of fat and sugar on a bun, a pound of fries and wash it
down with a 64 oz Croke-a-cola. Then they go to their pharmacy.

Most are unwilling to change their diet or read this book:

Who are these "most" people? Your inbred relatives?

Life is a journey, not a destination. Well, yes, there is one
inevitable inescapable destination, and we all get there, no matter what
condition the factory container is in.

But I far far respect and admire people who live their lives every day
living, laughing, playing with their grandkids, helping others, giving,
being kind, being positive, and generally wear themselves to a worn nub
rather than those who lay there in the casket as people walk by and say,
"My, she looks nice. Not even as old as her age. Didn't she have a
very nice diet? And her organic garden was to die for."

Pooey. Looks as fake as those bubbas who spend $100,000 on jacked up 4
x 4 trucks, and never put them in 4wd, and cry and wail because of brush
streaks. It's all about looks, dontcha know.

So, all you fraidy cats, crawl back to your closets stocked up with
wheat thins and miracle liquid, and enjoy some more of that long long
life. As for me, it's 99 cent day at McD's, and big macs are 99 cents.
Two of those, and an endlessly refillable senior drink ............

I wonder if heaven is like that ..............

Waddya think, you hit sixty, and start to reverse? Get healthier?

Steve

On 2/4/2014 6:29 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:


I prefer capitalism over socialism. But both are
known to bias the thinking of physicians. I'd
rather have doctors carrying pocket full of
Metamucil tongue depressors, opposed to having to
phone a bureaucrat in Washington every time the
MD wants to prescribe acetaminophen.

I got my new script for Oxycodone. After zumpty sumpthin years of them
putting acetominophen in there, something that they know causes liver
rot, they finally took it out.

I had to sign a statement at the doctor's office, then one at the
pharmacy, plus a private consultation at the pharmacy.

They know the stuff will kill you, and it takes 50 years to get it out.
And yet they spend all this time protecting us pain patients from
marijuana. Don't get me started on alcohol and cigarettes, other than
they, too, are a personal choice, and if any adult wants to do them,
they have the "right". Before do gooders, Mormons, and liberals step
in, that is,

I still can't figure out how someone hasn't done the math, and seen all
the tax money going out the window, and legalized pot. With its
popularity, and ease of growth, a pack would be about fifteen cents.
Oh, make thatk $9 per pack with taxes.

Steve

On Tue, 04 Feb 2014 08:29:24 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

I prefer capitalism over socialism. But both are
known to bias the thinking of physicians. I'd
rather have doctors carrying pocket full of
Metamucil tongue depressors, opposed to having to
phone a bureaucrat in Washington every time the
MD wants to prescribe acetaminophen.

I have never had to phone anyone about a prescription. In
fact, I could lose my license if I did. And I have always worked in a
socialist system, never FOR a socialist system. Unlike the doctors
that work FOR profit-making schemes.
Bias ? Re-read what you wrote.
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

On Tue, 04 Feb 2014 07:39:01 -0600, CRNG
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Feb 2014 21:39:43 -0500, Peter wrote in


Yes, medicine is still very much an art as well as a science. Accurately
predicting any individual patient's clinical course, especially in the
case of chronic illness, is usually impossible.

IMO one cause for misunderstanding is the medical profession's
(perhaps unconscious) cultivation of a public aura of infallibly; I.e.
the "..doctor knows best.." aura. I'm guessing that medical pros are
taught early to project a mystique of confidence and certainty so as
to reassure the patient and family that all is under control. And
that is certainly worthwhile. But I do believe it leads to
disappointment when reality sets in.

We have to convince patients to take medicine even if we know
that the chances of recovery are low. As long as side effects are not
worse than whatever affects them. Sometimes we have to lie to achieve
that. On the other hand, it would be criminal to use that trust to
flog medicine for kick-backs.
Medicine is all about probabilities. The more you study and
know, the higher the chance of getting it right. But only a charlatan
promises success. Each and every patient is unique.
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

On Tue, 04 Feb 2014 09:05:49 -0500, Peter wrote:

One of the great joys of
military medicine (yes, it IS "socialized medicine"), is that physicians
don't have a profit motive associated with any patient management
decision, and the Feres doctrine (look it up if you don't know what it
is) insulates from the pressure to practice defensive medicine. You can
concentrate on providing the best possible care for each patient.

OK, I can vouch for that. Plus in Brazil there is no
"insurance or lawyer industry". They tried to implant it back in dark
old days, but were kicked all the way back to their headquarters in
the USA.
And since I was on a salary, a patient telling me he would
seek another doctor if I would not ask for an unnecessary X-Ray would
be greeted with a warm smile......
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

On Tue, 04 Feb 2014 09:08:19 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 2/4/2014 8:39 AM, CRNG wrote:
IMO one cause for misunderstanding is the medical profession's
(perhaps unconscious) cultivation of a public aura of infallibly; I.e.
the "..doctor knows best.." aura. I'm guessing that medical pros are
taught early to project a mystique of confidence and certainty so as
to reassure the patient and family that all is under control. And
that is certainly worthwhile. But I do believe it leads to
disappointment when reality sets in.

One friend of mine describes the WCG syndrome,
White Coated God. That's when the MD think's
s/he is infallible.

You should see the GTP's (Google Trained Patients). They
always have far more experience than we do....
Doctors don't think they are doGs, because most don't believe
doGs even exist. Avoid any that do. They are just trying to blame
someone else for their incompetence.
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

In article , Peter
wrote:



As someone who falls squarely into the category of "Washington
bureaucrat" for the final 14 years of my military medical career, I very
strongly resent the implication of your statement.

You were Army and you noted you did not have direct control over what
was paid for and what wasn't. BIG difference in this context.
--
³Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive,
but what they conceal is vital.²
‹ Aaron Levenstein

In article ,
Tony Hwang wrote:

Drug cos. make drugs for money not for our health. They spend more on
advertising than for R&D. I chuckle when I see their ads. with the list
of possible side effects in small unreadable font or hushed down voice
on TV. Some people think doctor who give lots of medicine is good
doctor. Statin family drug for Cholesterol? If one takes them, watch
your heart.

That is a cooked book kind of thing. Most of the time people trying to
make this point don't pull out the money spend on advertising RX from
OTC side of the biz, which obviously has a higher advertising budget.
They also tend to not include the costs of clinical trials in R&D. I
have searched for many years and I still haven't been able to come up
with a stat on this subject that I am entirely comfortable with.
--
³Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive,
but what they conceal is vital.²
‹ Aaron Levenstein

On 2/4/2014 10:35 AM, Peter wrote:

As someone who falls squarely into the category of "Washington
bureaucrat" for the final 14 years of my military medical career, I very
strongly resent the implication of your statement.

I do regret any resentment.

Feb 04, 2014. I'm in the truck listening to WYSL
1040AM, in NYS. It's about 12:15 Pm. The people on
the show (didn't get the name of the show) are
talking about a childrens hospital who had about
120 pediatric patients, needing care. They
contacted ACA about all of them. They got about
20 replies, of any kind. 12 of those had approval
or not, and 8 were disapproved. They may have a
podcast if some one wants to get the rest of the
details.

Sadly, the people in power are not as honorable as
yourself.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 2/4/2014 11:14 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
Shad, you must find a hobby such as trudging through the rain forest and
searching for treasure or unusual new species down there in The Southern
Hemisphere. You could go to the beach and watch all the cute
topless girls show off their assets. The only problem with going to the
beach to girl watch is that some really fat ugly ones walk around half
naked too. My Southern Hillbilly grandmother, Granny, lived to be 95 and
one can only wonder about the history she witnessed throughout her long
life. ^_^

TDD

I have a dream. That one day women will be judged
by the content of their character, not the perkiness
of their tits.

95 years of history, ought have seen a lot of change.
Progress and change aren't always the same.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Tue, 04 Feb 2014 09:17:08 -0500, Peter wrote:

On 2/3/2014 10:28 PM, Shadow wrote:

I retired as a family doctor, years ago. ( 35 years practice, when I
was almost perfect, I had to retire ....). In my country, family
medicine is state-run, a very corrupt state, so we have to ignore the
leaflets they hand out and study in those tediously thick text-books.
And even double check them for biased text. I don't jump to
conclusions. I just thought your choice of "high cholesterol" when we
were discussing disability was not wisely made. A stroke, heart
attack, severe liver or kidney failure, something like that would be
more convincing. FWIW []'s


Shadow, perhaps we have an English language comprehension problem?

Nothing lethal, but English is not my first language. Almost
all medical books are in English, unless you want to fool around with
acupuncture and homeopathy. I don't, so my grasp of English is
probably OK.

As a
trained doctor, surely you know that most patients who have had a stroke
or have severe liver or kidney failure are at least partially disabled.

Yep. What I said.
My original reply questioned the OP's apparent belief that anyone
merely taking prescription meds for a chronic condition met the
definition of disabled.

//"Speaking as a MD, I believe that if someone is taking prescription
medication for a chronic condition, and that condition is being well
controlled (no medication side effects and no detectable damage to any
organ system from the chronic condition), that person should be
considered healthy. (Examples might include well controlled high
blood pressure and well controlled high blood cholesterol if they were
diagnosed and managed soon after onset - among some other chronic
conditions.) "//

I did the inverse of your logic.

"Examples might include well controlled ...remove high blood
pressure..cholesterol if they were diagnosed and managed soon after
onset ."

And if they were not ? I often get patients that have had high
cholesterol for decades with little organic damage. Like I said, you
chose a bad example. Cholesterol levels are a minor factor in vascular
disease. Not what the drug companies want us to believe. GENETICS,
smoking, Obesity, High Blood Pressure, Diabetes, severe alcoholism,
and sedentarism play much bigger roles. I consider stress a secondary
factor as it might cause any of the above, minus genetics.Did I forget
any ?
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

In article ,
Stormin Mormon wrote:

On 2/3/2014 10:10 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
The ultimate consequence of Affirmative
Action IS The President of my country and THAT does concern me because
of all the destruction he has done and will do to my country. o_O


The voters of the U.S. put the President in office.
And you'll live with it.
All your squealing like a stuck pig won't change a thing.

Something called "voter fraud" and another thing
called "voter intimidation" and a third called
"Diebold electronic voting" makes me wonder about
that.

yup, the republicans excelled at voter intimidation

On 2/4/2014 1:39 PM, Kurt Ullman wrote:
In article , Peter
wrote:



As someone who falls squarely into the category of "Washington
bureaucrat" for the final 14 years of my military medical career, I
very strongly resent the implication of your statement.

You were Army and you noted you did not have direct control over
what was paid for and what wasn't. BIG difference in this context.


Sorry Kurt. I never said I was Army (and never was). As a practitioner
I didn't have direct control over my office's budget.

Most of my career was Navy. When I became a bureaucrat, I had almost
total control over what was paid for and what was not. My annual
research budget at one point was about $20M/yr, and that was mid 1990s
$$. Later on, I had final say-so (known as second level review) over
whether others could or could not spend money from their own budgets and
the sum of those budgets collectively totaled several hundred $M/yr. It
was a great assignment. I had a lot of authority but very little
responsibility.

On 2/4/2014 1:54 PM, Shadow wrote:
On Tue, 04 Feb 2014 09:17:08 -0500, Peter wrote:

On 2/3/2014 10:28 PM, Shadow wrote:

I retired as a family doctor, years ago. ( 35 years practice,
when I was almost perfect, I had to retire ....). In my country,
family medicine is state-run, a very corrupt state, so we have to
ignore the leaflets they hand out and study in those tediously
thick text-books. And even double check them for biased text. I
don't jump to conclusions. I just thought your choice of "high
cholesterol" when we were discussing disability was not wisely
made. A stroke, heart attack, severe liver or kidney failure,
something like that would be more convincing. FWIW []'s


Shadow, perhaps we have an English language comprehension problem?

Nothing lethal, but English is not my first language. Almost all
medical books are in English, unless you want to fool around with
acupuncture and homeopathy. I don't, so my grasp of English is
probably OK.

As a trained doctor, surely you know that most patients who have
had a stroke or have severe liver or kidney failure are at least
partially disabled.

Yep. What I said.
My original reply questioned the OP's apparent belief that anyone
merely taking prescription meds for a chronic condition met the
definition of disabled.

//"Speaking as a MD, I believe that if someone is taking
prescription medication for a chronic condition, and that condition
is being well controlled (no medication side effects and no
detectable damage to any organ system from the chronic condition),
that person should be considered healthy. (Examples might include
well controlled high blood pressure and well controlled high blood
cholesterol if they were diagnosed and managed soon after onset -
among some other chronic conditions.) "//

I did the inverse of your logic.

"Examples might include well controlled ...remove high blood
pressure..cholesterol if they were diagnosed and managed soon after
onset ."

And if they were not ? I often get patients that have had high
cholesterol for decades with little organic damage. Like I said,
you chose a bad example. Cholesterol levels are a minor factor in
vascular disease. Not what the drug companies want us to believe.
GENETICS, smoking, Obesity, High Blood Pressure, Diabetes, severe
alcoholism, and sedentarism play much bigger roles. I consider stress
a secondary factor as it might cause any of the above, minus
genetics.Did I forget any ? []'s


Our comments are tangential to each others' comments, not directly
addressing them. I didn't mean to imply that high serum cholesterol,
even if uncontrolled, is a debilitating condition. I was indicating
that I disagreed with the OP, who seemed to believe that a person
chronically taking a prescription drug for a chronic condition (note:
I'm saying "condition" and not "disease" or "disability") IS by
definition "unhealthy".

I completely agree with the details of your most recent reply. High
cholesterol is being used both by big Pharma (not surprising), and seems
to be accepted by the FDA (rather surprising) as a valid surrogate
marker for cardiovascular disease and although there strong evidence to
support an association between the two, I'm not convinced that high
cholesterol is the cause. Both my parents ate a diet high in total fat
and saturated fat. Both were extremely sedentary. Both had marginally
controlled hypertension. Both had total serum cholesterol readings in
the high 200s. Neither ever had any signs or symptoms of
cerebrovascular or cardiovascular disease. Both died in their early 90s
of non-cardiovascular causes. I agree that genetics is by far the most
significant factor in an individual's likelihood of developing serious
cardiovascular disease.

In article ,
"Terry Coombs" wrote:

Vic Smith wrote:
On Mon, 03 Feb 2014 20:28:34 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

The ultimate consequence of Affirmative Action IS The President of
my country and THAT does concern me because of all the destruction
he has done and will do to my country. o_O


The voters of the U.S. put the President in office.

Too bad a lot of those voters were dead ,

can you provide un-biased proof


and that many of them voted more than once .

can you provide un-biased proof



There is no question in my mind that the last 2 elections were
stolen due to voter fraud .

there is no question in my mind that the republicans did everything they
could to prevent early voting, mail-in ballots and create long lines at
Democratic rich polling places. I also have no doubt that if there were
any SIGNIFICANT voter ID fraud, it was a black op of the republicans



And that Barry Soetoro is the biggest fraud ever
perpetrated upon the American public . I'm just waiting to see how he
tries to stay in power . He's already got a good start on corrupting
our military leaders into agreeing to fire on US citizens . Let's
just hope the people that actually have to pull those triggers
realize that it's their friends and neighbors out there on the
business end of those arms . It's gonna get ugly , and the question
is not if but when ...

On Tue, 04 Feb 2014 10:35:58 -0500, Peter wrote:

I'd rather have an insurance company be unable to pay for the med (or
the patient) rather than a bureaucrat in Washington denying
permission for the med.


As someone who falls squarely into the category of "Washington
bureaucrat" for the final 14 years of my military medical career, I very
strongly resent the implication of your statement.

There is no such thing as an "insurance company that is unable
to pay for medicine". When they say that, they mean it might affect
how much cocaine they can buy at the next office party.
Which is why I always say, if there is ever a possibility of a
public health plan, choose that. Only private health insurance will
limit what a doctor prescribes.
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

On Tue, 04 Feb 2014 10:14:10 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Shad, you must find a hobby such as trudging through the rain forest and

I disappear for months at a time, to places where the internet
does not shine.
searching for treasure or unusual new species down there in The Southern
Hemisphere. You could go to the beach and watch all the cute
topless girls show off their assets.

Sounds too much like work to me.
The only problem with going to the
beach to girl watch is that some really fat ugly ones walk around half
naked too.

Yep. Confirmed - Work. I'd rather download MP3's or go
snorkeling. I'm not very good out of water. 3 spinal fractures, one of
which is unstable, and a badly set foot fracture, which is painful if
I walk for 30 minutes.
My Southern Hillbilly grandmother, Granny, lived to be 95 and
one can only wonder about the history she witnessed throughout her long
life. ^_^

One of my grandmothers lived alone until she was 96. Great
cook, good housekeeper. Then she fell, had neurological complications
during the "hip" surgery and only lasted another 7 years ... at first
she thought I was her son, but towards the end she convinced herself I
was her husband.
My +- 95 year old Uncle recently had his colostomy reversed,
because he "was tired of changing the bag". He had a malignant tumor
removed when he was 90. All relatives mentioned used state medicine,
except my father. He would pay private doctors that told him a liter
of whiskey a day was not "too much".
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

SteveB wrote:

Unfortunate that everyone you know on chronic meds uses incompetent
quack physicians.

Most people go straight to BlubberKing after visiting their doctor and
order a slab of fat and sugar on a bun, a pound of fries and wash it
down with a 64 oz Croke-a-cola. Then they go to their pharmacy.

Most are unwilling to change their diet or read this book:

Who are these "most" people? Your inbred relatives?

Life is a journey, not a destination. Well, yes, there is one
inevitable inescapable destination, and we all get there, no matter what
condition the factory container is in.

But I far far respect and admire people who live their lives every day
living, laughing, playing with their grandkids, helping others, giving,
being kind, being positive, and generally wear themselves to a worn nub
rather than those who lay there in the casket as people walk by and say,
"My, she looks nice. Not even as old as her age. Didn't she have a
very nice diet? And her organic garden was to die for."

Pooey. Looks as fake as those bubbas who spend $100,000 on jacked up 4
x 4 trucks, and never put them in 4wd, and cry and wail because of brush
streaks. It's all about looks, dontcha know.

So, all you fraidy cats, crawl back to your closets stocked up with
wheat thins and miracle liquid, and enjoy some more of that long long
life. As for me, it's 99 cent day at McD's, and big macs are 99 cents.
Two of those, and an endlessly refillable senior drink ............

I wonder if heaven is like that ..............

Waddya think, you hit sixty, and start to reverse? Get healthier?

Steve

Hi,
If that is the case for you you may be one exception or one of a kind.
Or you are just kidding. I am just ordinary trying my best in life.
When St Paul asks password at the destination gate, my answer?
"I tried my best" Honestly we hardly ever set a foot at McD. We hardly
consume red meat. We and our kids grew up that way.

On 2/3/2014 9:30 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 2/2/2014 11:08 AM, R. Quincy, M. E. wrote:
How ridiculous.

Out of the average paycheck of anyone older than 30 in Canada,
you can probably trace anywhere from $500 to $750 of the monthly
income tax deducted at source going to one of the provincial
health insurance programs.

I watched a video made by a young Canadian woman about her family
and her husband who is disabled due to injury. She said that in the
Canadian health care system, her family is referred to as "Useless
eaters." If Abomination Care is allowed to continue in The United
States, the same sort of attitude will develop among the
Affirmative Action morons who are being put in charge of the
system. ^_^

TDD
Hi, Useless eaters? In the orient they say "rice worm"

I have to wonder how my Chinese cousins treat their "rice worms"? ^_^

TDD

On 2/3/2014 9:25 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 2/2/2014 6:02 PM, Daring Dufas: Hypocrite Sock of Killer Loon
wrote:

will never understand. I keep an eye on my roommates home, office,
handle a lot of paperwork for him and keep the computers up and in
good
Hi, Roommates home? Are you resident in an institution?

My roommate owns the house and he travels between here and another
county where his daughter, her husband and his other family members
reside. I suppose "housemate" would be a more accurate term. I just got
off the phone with him where he's on the road heading for a service call
in a city west of here to let him know I snagged a bid for another
job in a town near to his family home. I went on a service call with JH
yesterday to setup a big network printer at a daycare center. I know a
lot more about computers than he does and the service call didn't
require climbing ladders or crawling around on the floor. I try to get
out in the field as often as I can because I must move around, I can't
just sit around. ^_^

TDD

In article ,
Shadow wrote:

On Tue, 04 Feb 2014 10:35:58 -0500, Peter wrote:

I'd rather have an insurance company be unable to pay for the med (or
the patient) rather than a bureaucrat in Washington denying
permission for the med.


As someone who falls squarely into the category of "Washington
bureaucrat" for the final 14 years of my military medical career, I very
strongly resent the implication of your statement.

There is no such thing as an "insurance company that is unable
to pay for medicine". When they say that, they mean it might affect
how much cocaine they can buy at the next office party.
Which is why I always say, if there is ever a possibility of a
public health plan, choose that. Only private health insurance will
limit what a doctor prescribes.

That is nonsense. MCare and MCaid has also turned people down for
treatments and other things that the PTB at Center For Medicare?Medicaid
Studies (the people who make the decisions) decided they wouldn't pay
for.
--
"Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive,
but what they conceal is vital."
-- Aaron Levenstein

On 2/4/2014 2:20 PM, Shadow wrote:
On Tue, 04 Feb 2014 10:35:58 -0500, Peter wrote:

I'd rather have an insurance company be unable to pay for the med
(or the patient) rather than a bureaucrat in Washington denying
permission for the med.


As someone who falls squarely into the category of "Washington
bureaucrat" for the final 14 years of my military medical career, I
very strongly resent the implication of your statement.

There is no such thing as an "insurance company that is unable to pay
for medicine". When they say that, they mean it might affect how
much cocaine they can buy at the next office party. Which is why I
always say, if there is ever a possibility of a public health plan,
choose that. Only private health insurance will limit what a doctor
prescribes. []'s


Well... as far as the military heath system is concerned... not
completely so. The doc may prescribe what he/she feels is best, but
whether or not the patient has easy and economical access to the med is
a much more complicated issue.

Military pharmacies have formularies of what they keep in inventory to
dispense and what they don't. The military MD can prescribe a med not
on the pharmacy formulary list and try to make a case to the pharmacy
for a special purchase for that patient. If successful, the drug will
be obtained and dispensed without cost to the patient. If unsuccessful,
and the doc still feels that specific drug is a "must have", he/she can
write a prescription, provide it to the patient, and the patient might
be able to fill it at minimal cost at the military mail order pharmacy
if it is on their formulary. If not, the patient will have to fill it
at a civilian pharmacy and there's a complicated chart to determine the
Tricare (the DoD's health insurance program) copay for a 30 day or less
supply.

So, at least considering the military's health plan, the doc can
prescribe ad lib, but that doesn't mean that the patient gets it for
free before leaving the building. Many times yes, sometimes no.

On 2/4/2014 2:20 PM, Shadow wrote:

There is no such thing as an "insurance company that is unable
to pay for medicine". When they say that, they mean it might affect
how much cocaine they can buy at the next office party.
Which is why I always say, if there is ever a possibility of a
public health plan, choose that. Only private health insurance will
limit what a doctor prescribes.
[]'s


I don't have the specifics, but I'm sure that
the insurance companies don't have unlimited
money like you suggest. Or more correctly, that
they are buying [street] drugs instead of
[prescribed patient] medicine.


--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

In article ,
The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 2/3/2014 9:30 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 2/2/2014 11:08 AM, R. Quincy, M. E. wrote:
How ridiculous.

Out of the average paycheck of anyone older than 30 in Canada,
you can probably trace anywhere from $500 to $750 of the monthly
income tax deducted at source going to one of the provincial
health insurance programs.

I watched a video made by a young Canadian woman about her family
and her husband who is disabled due to injury. She said that in the
Canadian health care system, her family is referred to as "Useless
eaters." If Abomination Care is allowed to continue in The United
States, the same sort of attitude will develop among the
Affirmative Action morons who are being put in charge of the
system. ^_^

TDD
Hi, Useless eaters? In the orient they say "rice worm"

I have to wonder how my Chinese cousins treat their "rice worms"? ^_^

TDD

they feed them to the first graders on the assembly lines

Peter posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


As someone who falls squarely into the category of "Washington
bureaucrat" for the final 14 years of my military medical career, I very
strongly resent the implication of your statement.

Peter, Stumped is a troll! If anyone does not believe me they must make a valid effort to look at
past postings in this and the alt.hvac (probably more) groups. See for yourself. He is a danger to
others and has posted the fact he ripped off older citizens. I urge everyone to plonk him.

--
Tekkie

On Tue, 04 Feb 2014 13:00:22 -0800, "Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds"
wrote:

There are concerns that there is a false flag
operation in the works that would appear to be a terrorist attack

Are you referring to 9/11 or a more recent one ?
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

On Tue, 04 Feb 2014 16:17:13 -0500, Peter wrote:

On 2/4/2014 2:20 PM, Shadow wrote:
On Tue, 04 Feb 2014 10:35:58 -0500, Peter wrote:

I'd rather have an insurance company be unable to pay for the med
(or the patient) rather than a bureaucrat in Washington denying
permission for the med.


As someone who falls squarely into the category of "Washington
bureaucrat" for the final 14 years of my military medical career, I
very strongly resent the implication of your statement.

There is no such thing as an "insurance company that is unable to pay
for medicine". When they say that, they mean it might affect how
much cocaine they can buy at the next office party. Which is why I
always say, if there is ever a possibility of a public health plan,
choose that. Only private health insurance will limit what a doctor
prescribes. []'s


Well... as far as the military heath system is concerned... not
completely so. The doc may prescribe what he/she feels is best, but
whether or not the patient has easy and economical access to the med is
a much more complicated issue.

Military pharmacies have formularies of what they keep in inventory to
dispense and what they don't. The military MD can prescribe a med not
on the pharmacy formulary list and try to make a case to the pharmacy
for a special purchase for that patient. If successful, the drug will
be obtained and dispensed without cost to the patient. If unsuccessful,
and the doc still feels that specific drug is a "must have", he/she can
write a prescription, provide it to the patient, and the patient might
be able to fill it at minimal cost at the military mail order pharmacy
if it is on their formulary. If not, the patient will have to fill it
at a civilian pharmacy and there's a complicated chart to determine the
Tricare (the DoD's health insurance program) copay for a 30 day or less
supply.

So, at least considering the military's health plan, the doc can
prescribe ad lib, but that doesn't mean that the patient gets it for
free before leaving the building. Many times yes, sometimes no.

More or less the same here. If its WHO recommended, they get
it free. If it is very expensive, local specialist hospitals can get
it for you (as in cancer drugs) for free, but you would have to go to
a specialist.
If it's one of those super-duper new experimental drugs, that
give you a nice tour in Europe, chances would be slight.
The trouble is that there is a lot of WHO stuff that should
not even be on the list, and that were bribed in .....
Lula implanted the best scheme, where you pay a small amount.
Drugs costing 100 dollars can be had for less than 5 dollars at
pharmacies with a federal government contract. People are less likely
to throw stuff away if they have to pay for it, however little the
cost.
I sometimes take atenolol. Twenty 50mg pills cost just over a
dollar, and I can buy up to 3 boxes a month. The prescription is
registered in a central database, so people do not resell the drugs.
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

On Tue, 04 Feb 2014 17:42:44 -0500, Stormin Mormon
wrote:

On 2/4/2014 2:20 PM, Shadow wrote:

There is no such thing as an "insurance company that is unable
to pay for medicine". When they say that, they mean it might affect
how much cocaine they can buy at the next office party.
Which is why I always say, if there is ever a possibility of a
public health plan, choose that. Only private health insurance will
limit what a doctor prescribes.
[]'s


I don't have the specifics, but I'm sure that
the insurance companies don't have unlimited
money like you suggest. Or more correctly, that
they are buying [street] drugs instead of
[prescribed patient] medicine.

Well, after I read this:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...-joke-20121213

I can imagine doctors prescribing cocaine for their rich
patients.

Party Use only
"Sniff one dose whenever you feel bored"
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

On 02/04/2014 07:15 PM, Shadow wrote:
I can imagine doctors prescribing cocaine for their rich
patients.

Party Use only
"Sniff one dose whenever you feel bored"
[]'s

Laws are only for poor people.

On 2/4/2014 5:01 PM, Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:
In article , The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 2/3/2014 9:30 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 2/2/2014 11:08 AM, R. Quincy, M. E. wrote:
How ridiculous.

Out of the average paycheck of anyone older than 30 in
Canada, you can probably trace anywhere from $500 to $750 of
the monthly income tax deducted at source going to one of the
provincial health insurance programs.

I watched a video made by a young Canadian woman about her
family and her husband who is disabled due to injury. She said
that in the Canadian health care system, her family is referred
to as "Useless eaters." If Abomination Care is allowed to
continue in The United States, the same sort of attitude will
develop among the Affirmative Action morons who are being put
in charge of the system. ^_^

TDD
Hi, Useless eaters? In the orient they say "rice worm"

I have to wonder how my Chinese cousins treat their "rice worms"?
^_^

TDD

they feed them to the first graders on the assembly lines

Oh I see, they fatten up the worms to be cooked and served at the
restaurants. ^_^

TDD