Dead alarm system troubleshooting advice requested ...
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5540/1...fcb528ab_o.gif

Yesterday, I had been messing with the main breakers, and accidentally
shut the main 200A breaker without turning off the power generator switch;
so the Generac kicked in; and I heard the alarm system in the garage
vehemently complaining with persistent loud beeps.

I immediately reset everything, and I thought it was all ok.

Then, today, the alarm system sounded three loud long beeps, and
went totally dead.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5522/1...e48ee609_o.gif

Troubleshooting with my Fluke after removing the alarm system external
wires shows the external ELK-TRG21640 16.5VAC, 45VA power-supply
transformer plugged into an outlet has an open secondary, and when
plugged into an extension cord, there is no voltage from any of the
three screws on the secondary windings:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/1...d64103f6_o.gif

If I thought it was that simple, I'd just replace the transformer;
but I wondered why the backup battery didn't run the alarm system.
Testing the 12V 5AH battery out of the alarm system shows it's 13.5
volts DC (no load open circuit voltage), which, at least seems OK
(I don't know how to load it though):
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3731/1...d9f59f77_o.gif

So, two things must be wrong:
1. The ELK AC transformer secondary opened up suddenly
2. Maybe the power supply inside the alarm system box went bad suddenly
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3751/1...ff0ca903_o.gif

Do you think shutting the breaker without turning off the generator
could have blown the alarm system?

Any other troubleshooting suggestions?

On Friday, November 22, 2013 1:35:28 AM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:
Dead alarm system troubleshooting advice requested ...

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5540/1...fcb528ab_o.gif



Yesterday, I had been messing with the main breakers, and accidentally

shut the main 200A breaker without turning off the power generator switch;

so the Generac kicked in; and I heard the alarm system in the garage

vehemently complaining with persistent loud beeps.



I immediately reset everything, and I thought it was all ok.



Then, today, the alarm system sounded three loud long beeps, and

went totally dead.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5522/1...e48ee609_o.gif



Troubleshooting with my Fluke after removing the alarm system external

wires shows the external ELK-TRG21640 16.5VAC, 45VA power-supply

transformer plugged into an outlet has an open secondary, and when

plugged into an extension cord, there is no voltage from any of the

three screws on the secondary windings:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/1...d64103f6_o.gif



If I thought it was that simple, I'd just replace the transformer;

but I wondered why the backup battery didn't run the alarm system.

Testing the 12V 5AH battery out of the alarm system shows it's 13.5

volts DC (no load open circuit voltage), which, at least seems OK

(I don't know how to load it though):

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3731/1...d9f59f77_o.gif



So, two things must be wrong:

1. The ELK AC transformer secondary opened up suddenly

2. Maybe the power supply inside the alarm system box went bad suddenly

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3751/1...ff0ca903_o.gif



Do you think shutting the breaker without turning off the generator

could have blown the alarm system?



It shouldn't, but you'll never know if your experimentation
somehow caused it or if it was just a coincidence. There is no
question that home generators of various types have been known to
screw up some electronic equipment at times.



Any other troubleshooting suggestions?


I assume you checked for any low voltage fuses?

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 06:09:02 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Friday, November 22, 2013 1:35:28 AM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:
Dead alarm system troubleshooting advice requested ...

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5540/1...fcb528ab_o.gif



Yesterday, I had been messing with the main breakers, and accidentally

shut the main 200A breaker without turning off the power generator switch;

so the Generac kicked in; and I heard the alarm system in the garage

vehemently complaining with persistent loud beeps.



I immediately reset everything, and I thought it was all ok.



Then, today, the alarm system sounded three loud long beeps, and

went totally dead.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5522/1...e48ee609_o.gif



Troubleshooting with my Fluke after removing the alarm system external

wires shows the external ELK-TRG21640 16.5VAC, 45VA power-supply

transformer plugged into an outlet has an open secondary, and when

plugged into an extension cord, there is no voltage from any of the

three screws on the secondary windings:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/1...d64103f6_o.gif



If I thought it was that simple, I'd just replace the transformer;

but I wondered why the backup battery didn't run the alarm system.

Testing the 12V 5AH battery out of the alarm system shows it's 13.5

volts DC (no load open circuit voltage), which, at least seems OK

(I don't know how to load it though):

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3731/1...d9f59f77_o.gif



So, two things must be wrong:

1. The ELK AC transformer secondary opened up suddenly

2. Maybe the power supply inside the alarm system box went bad suddenly

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3751/1...ff0ca903_o.gif



Do you think shutting the breaker without turning off the generator

could have blown the alarm system?



It shouldn't, but you'll never know if your experimentation
somehow caused it or if it was just a coincidence. There is no
question that home generators of various types have been known to
screw up some electronic equipment at times.



Any other troubleshooting suggestions?


I assume you checked for any low voltage fuses?

Also, depending on where fuses are located, the power supply failing
(for example, a shorted capacitor or diode) could have taken out the
transformer secondary. So, it isn't necessarily a coincidence that
both failed at once.

Pat

Danny D'Amico wrote:

Dead alarm system troubleshooting advice requested ...

I wondered why the backup battery didn't run the alarm system.
Testing the 12V 5AH battery out of the alarm system shows it's 13.5
volts DC (no load open circuit voltage), which, at least seems OK
(I don't know how to load it though):
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3731/1...d9f59f77_o.gif

If the alarm battery is more than 4 or 5 years old, there's a good chance it
won't support any kind of load. They are cheap - I'd replace it.

On Thu, 21 Nov 2013 23:35:28 -0700, Danny D'Amico wrote:

Dead alarm system troubleshooting advice requested ...
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5540/1...fcb528ab_o.gif

..snip to keep Aioe happy

I don't have experience with your set up. just trying to conceive of the
transient conditions leading up to the failure to better understand where
to look and what to replace. Wasn't that sequence a possible scenario when
your AC mains fail? Or did opening your 200A house breaker somehow supply
a 'no-load' to your generac and thus you put some really high voltage
places you didn't want? Or, switching back and forth did something. Or,
yeah, tough, two things broke - it happens. Aren't the built-in fuse links
inside those transformers in the primary, not the secondary?

On 11/22/2013 6:09 AM, wrote:
On Friday, November 22, 2013 1:35:28 AM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:
Dead alarm system troubleshooting advice requested ...

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5540/1...fcb528ab_o.gif



Yesterday, I had been messing with the main breakers, and accidentally

shut the main 200A breaker without turning off the power generator switch;

so the Generac kicked in; and I heard the alarm system in the garage

vehemently complaining with persistent loud beeps.



I immediately reset everything, and I thought it was all ok.



Then, today, the alarm system sounded three loud long beeps, and

went totally dead.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5522/1...e48ee609_o.gif



Troubleshooting with my Fluke after removing the alarm system external

wires shows the external ELK-TRG21640 16.5VAC, 45VA power-supply

transformer plugged into an outlet has an open secondary, and when

plugged into an extension cord, there is no voltage from any of the

three screws on the secondary windings:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/1...d64103f6_o.gif



If I thought it was that simple, I'd just replace the transformer;

but I wondered why the backup battery didn't run the alarm system.

Testing the 12V 5AH battery out of the alarm system shows it's 13.5

volts DC (no load open circuit voltage), which, at least seems OK

(I don't know how to load it though):

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3731/1...d9f59f77_o.gif



So, two things must be wrong:

1. The ELK AC transformer secondary opened up suddenly

2. Maybe the power supply inside the alarm system box went bad suddenly

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3751/1...ff0ca903_o.gif



Do you think shutting the breaker without turning off the generator

could have blown the alarm system?



It shouldn't, but you'll never know if your experimentation
somehow caused it or if it was just a coincidence. There is no
question that home generators of various types have been known to
screw up some electronic equipment at times.



Any other troubleshooting suggestions?


I assume you checked for any low voltage fuses?

Transformers often have thermal fuses inside them.
But the ones I've replaced were in the primary.
And since you confirmed secondary, probably not your problem.
Might be worth a look tho.

On 11/22/2013 12:35 AM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
Dead alarm system troubleshooting advice requested ...
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5540/1...fcb528ab_o.gif

Yesterday, I had been messing with the main breakers, and accidentally
shut the main 200A breaker without turning off the power generator switch;
so the Generac kicked in; and I heard the alarm system in the garage
vehemently complaining with persistent loud beeps.

I immediately reset everything, and I thought it was all ok.

Then, today, the alarm system sounded three loud long beeps, and
went totally dead.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5522/1...e48ee609_o.gif

Troubleshooting with my Fluke after removing the alarm system external
wires shows the external ELK-TRG21640 16.5VAC, 45VA power-supply
transformer plugged into an outlet has an open secondary, and when
plugged into an extension cord, there is no voltage from any of the
three screws on the secondary windings:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/1...d64103f6_o.gif

If I thought it was that simple, I'd just replace the transformer;
but I wondered why the backup battery didn't run the alarm system.
Testing the 12V 5AH battery out of the alarm system shows it's 13.5
volts DC (no load open circuit voltage), which, at least seems OK
(I don't know how to load it though):
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3731/1...d9f59f77_o.gif

So, two things must be wrong:
1. The ELK AC transformer secondary opened up suddenly
2. Maybe the power supply inside the alarm system box went bad suddenly
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3751/1...ff0ca903_o.gif

Do you think shutting the breaker without turning off the generator
could have blown the alarm system?

Any other troubleshooting suggestions?


Most alarm systems will beep error codes such as AC power failure and if
you have a user manual, it should show you how to read the error codes
from the keypad. The error codes stay in static memory until erased
along with the time and date making the alarm tech's repair job a lot
easier. I seem to recall that small module connected between the battery
and alarm system being a battery saver that will disconnect the battery
when it gets to a low enough voltage. The blue tubular looking component
on the small module is an electrolytic capacitor that could be blown due
to the swollen end. You can bypass the module and the alarm system
should power up. It's very possible that the blown electrolytic
capacitor could have shorted out and blown the fusible link inside the
transformer. Try bypassing the module and see if the alarm will power
up. You may be able to replace the 22 year old blue electrolytic
capacitor then replace the wall wart transformer and the darned old
system should work. It will operate without the module connected between
the battery and alarm system. I'm assuming from looking at your pictures
that you are not monitored by an alarm company and it's just a local
alarm. ^_^

TDD

wrote:
On Friday, November 22, 2013 1:35:28 AM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:
Dead alarm system troubleshooting advice requested ...

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5540/1...fcb528ab_o.gif



Yesterday, I had been messing with the main breakers, and accidentally

shut the main 200A breaker without turning off the power generator switch;

so the Generac kicked in; and I heard the alarm system in the garage

vehemently complaining with persistent loud beeps.



I immediately reset everything, and I thought it was all ok.



Then, today, the alarm system sounded three loud long beeps, and

went totally dead.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5522/1...e48ee609_o.gif



Troubleshooting with my Fluke after removing the alarm system external

wires shows the external ELK-TRG21640 16.5VAC, 45VA power-supply

transformer plugged into an outlet has an open secondary, and when

plugged into an extension cord, there is no voltage from any of the

three screws on the secondary windings:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/1...d64103f6_o.gif



If I thought it was that simple, I'd just replace the transformer;

but I wondered why the backup battery didn't run the alarm system.

Testing the 12V 5AH battery out of the alarm system shows it's 13.5

volts DC (no load open circuit voltage), which, at least seems OK

(I don't know how to load it though):

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3731/1...d9f59f77_o.gif



So, two things must be wrong:

1. The ELK AC transformer secondary opened up suddenly

2. Maybe the power supply inside the alarm system box went bad suddenly

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3751/1...ff0ca903_o.gif



Do you think shutting the breaker without turning off the generator

could have blown the alarm system?



It shouldn't, but you'll never know if your experimentation
somehow caused it or if it was just a coincidence. There is no
question that home generators of various types have been known to
screw up some electronic equipment at times.



Any other troubleshooting suggestions?


I assume you checked for any low voltage fuses?

Hi,
Just start with replacing the x-former and battery. I strongly suspect
battery is no good. When you check the voltage did you remove a lead
from battery terminal since you mentioned no load voltage.
Your battery is not holding charge so when x-former quit, it couldn't
supply the necessary juice.

On 11/22/2013 10:12 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:
wrote:
On Friday, November 22, 2013 1:35:28 AM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:
Dead alarm system troubleshooting advice requested ...

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5540/1...fcb528ab_o.gif



Yesterday, I had been messing with the main breakers, and accidentally

shut the main 200A breaker without turning off the power generator
switch;

so the Generac kicked in; and I heard the alarm system in the garage

vehemently complaining with persistent loud beeps.



I immediately reset everything, and I thought it was all ok.



Then, today, the alarm system sounded three loud long beeps, and

went totally dead.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5522/1...e48ee609_o.gif



Troubleshooting with my Fluke after removing the alarm system external

wires shows the external ELK-TRG21640 16.5VAC, 45VA power-supply

transformer plugged into an outlet has an open secondary, and when

plugged into an extension cord, there is no voltage from any of the

three screws on the secondary windings:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/1...d64103f6_o.gif



If I thought it was that simple, I'd just replace the transformer;

but I wondered why the backup battery didn't run the alarm system.

Testing the 12V 5AH battery out of the alarm system shows it's 13.5

volts DC (no load open circuit voltage), which, at least seems OK

(I don't know how to load it though):

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3731/1...d9f59f77_o.gif



So, two things must be wrong:

1. The ELK AC transformer secondary opened up suddenly

2. Maybe the power supply inside the alarm system box went bad suddenly

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3751/1...ff0ca903_o.gif



Do you think shutting the breaker without turning off the generator

could have blown the alarm system?



It shouldn't, but you'll never know if your experimentation
somehow caused it or if it was just a coincidence. There is no
question that home generators of various types have been known to
screw up some electronic equipment at times.



Any other troubleshooting suggestions?


I assume you checked for any low voltage fuses?

Hi,
Just start with replacing the x-former and battery. I strongly suspect
battery is no good. When you check the voltage did you remove a lead
from battery terminal since you mentioned no load voltage.
Your battery is not holding charge so when x-former quit, it couldn't
supply the necessary juice.


Look at the picture of the module between the battery and power
terminals. It's a battery saver module designed to keep the battery from
being completely discharged. Look closely at the blue electrolytic
capacitor on the module circuit board. It looks swollen and electrolytic
capacitors can dry out and become a short circuit, especially if they're
22 years old. ^_^

TDD

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
Dead alarm system troubleshooting advice requested ...
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5540/1...fcb528ab_o.gif

Yesterday, I had been messing with the main breakers, and accidentally
shut the main 200A breaker without turning off the power generator switch;
so the Generac kicked in; and I heard the alarm system in the garage
vehemently complaining with persistent loud beeps.

I immediately reset everything, and I thought it was all ok.

Then, today, the alarm system sounded three loud long beeps, and
went totally dead.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5522/1...e48ee609_o.gif

Troubleshooting with my Fluke after removing the alarm system external
wires shows the external ELK-TRG21640 16.5VAC, 45VA power-supply
transformer plugged into an outlet has an open secondary, and when
plugged into an extension cord, there is no voltage from any of the
three screws on the secondary windings:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/1...d64103f6_o.gif

If I thought it was that simple, I'd just replace the transformer;
but I wondered why the backup battery didn't run the alarm system.
Testing the 12V 5AH battery out of the alarm system shows it's 13.5
volts DC (no load open circuit voltage), which, at least seems OK
(I don't know how to load it though):
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3731/1...d9f59f77_o.gif

So, two things must be wrong:
1. The ELK AC transformer secondary opened up suddenly
2. Maybe the power supply inside the alarm system box went bad suddenly
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3751/1...ff0ca903_o.gif

Do you think shutting the breaker without turning off the generator
could have blown the alarm system?

Any other troubleshooting suggestions?


Replace the transformer. Fry's or Home Depot, off of Hamilton Ave West
of Hwy 17 will be the closest location, other than some hard to find
places in Campbell, to you.

Move that rat nest to the right and look at the lower right area of the
circuit board. There should be a glass fuse close to where the power
leads terminate on the terminal strip. This fuse might have a white
casing. Pull the fuse and check it. Ohm meter will read zero if good,
or 0l (zero l - Open line). If you know how to activate the continuity
test of your Fluke, the tone gives a better indication since the Fluke
might pick up your finger tips (it is a pain to get the leads on those
little buggers) and goof ball around for a bit.

Buy some six inch long cable ties and clean that mess up. :-)

On Friday, November 22, 2013 11:12:21 AM UTC-5, Tony Hwang wrote:
wrote:

On Friday, November 22, 2013 1:35:28 AM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:

Dead alarm system troubleshooting advice requested ...



http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5540/1...fcb528ab_o.gif







Yesterday, I had been messing with the main breakers, and accidentally



shut the main 200A breaker without turning off the power generator switch;



so the Generac kicked in; and I heard the alarm system in the garage



vehemently complaining with persistent loud beeps.







I immediately reset everything, and I thought it was all ok.







Then, today, the alarm system sounded three loud long beeps, and



went totally dead.



http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5522/1...e48ee609_o.gif







Troubleshooting with my Fluke after removing the alarm system external



wires shows the external ELK-TRG21640 16.5VAC, 45VA power-supply



transformer plugged into an outlet has an open secondary, and when



plugged into an extension cord, there is no voltage from any of the



three screws on the secondary windings:



http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/1...d64103f6_o.gif







If I thought it was that simple, I'd just replace the transformer;



but I wondered why the backup battery didn't run the alarm system.



Testing the 12V 5AH battery out of the alarm system shows it's 13.5



volts DC (no load open circuit voltage), which, at least seems OK



(I don't know how to load it though):



http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3731/1...d9f59f77_o.gif







So, two things must be wrong:



1. The ELK AC transformer secondary opened up suddenly



2. Maybe the power supply inside the alarm system box went bad suddenly



http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3751/1...ff0ca903_o.gif







Do you think shutting the breaker without turning off the generator



could have blown the alarm system?







It shouldn't, but you'll never know if your experimentation

somehow caused it or if it was just a coincidence. There is no

question that home generators of various types have been known to

screw up some electronic equipment at times.







Any other troubleshooting suggestions?





I assume you checked for any low voltage fuses?



Hi,

Just start with replacing the x-former and battery. I strongly suspect

battery is no good.

It's easy enough to verify that the battery is or isn't the problem.
He's got 13.5V on the battery with no load. That doesnt' sound like
a bad battery to me. All he has to do is measure the voltage with it
connected to the alarm. If it's 12V and the alarm isn't powering up,
then it's not the battery.


When you check the voltage did you remove a lead

from battery terminal since you mentioned no load voltage.

Your battery is not holding charge so when x-former quit, it couldn't

supply the necessary juice.

Good grief. It's charged to 13.5 volts

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 10:09:53 -0700, Nightcrawler®
wrote:

...snip...
Replace the transformer. Fry's or Home Depot, off of Hamilton Ave West
of Hwy 17 will be the closest location, other than some hard to find
places in Campbell, to you.


Isn't that 880 now? changes where it crosses 101.

Danny D'Amico wrote:


If I thought it was that simple, I'd just replace the transformer;
but I wondered why the backup battery didn't run the alarm system.
Testing the 12V 5AH battery out of the alarm system shows it's 13.5
volts DC (no load open circuit voltage), which, at least seems OK
(I don't know how to load it though):
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3731/1...d9f59f77_o.gif

So, two things must be wrong:
1. The ELK AC transformer secondary opened up suddenly
2. Maybe the power supply inside the alarm system box went bad suddenly
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3751/1...ff0ca903_o.gif

Do you think shutting the breaker without turning off the generator
could have blown the alarm system?

I'm totally guessing here, but I think the transformer may have
blown when you tripped the generator, and the alarm ran on batteries
until they were exhausted. Then, the alarm shut down to prevent
destroying the battery. Although the 13.5 V seems really
high for a 12 V gel cell not being charged. So, there may be
another fault, such as a shorted rectifier in the alarm panel.
That would blow the transformer. But, then the panel should have
run off the battery for at least a while, and in the process
partially discharged the battery. So, it is a bit puzzling.

Jon

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 06:09:02 -0800, wrote:

I assume you checked for any low voltage fuses?

I didn't see any; but they might be there...

Still, the transformer is definitely dead.

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 11:19:17 -0700, RobertMacy wrote:

Isn't that 880 now? changes where it crosses 101.

I think it changes from 17 to 880 where it crosses the new 85.

Jon Elson wrote:
Danny D'Amico wrote:


If I thought it was that simple, I'd just replace the transformer;
but I wondered why the backup battery didn't run the alarm system.
Testing the 12V 5AH battery out of the alarm system shows it's 13.5
volts DC (no load open circuit voltage), which, at least seems OK
(I don't know how to load it though):
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3731/1...d9f59f77_o.gif

So, two things must be wrong:
1. The ELK AC transformer secondary opened up suddenly
2. Maybe the power supply inside the alarm system box went bad suddenly
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3751/1...ff0ca903_o.gif

Do you think shutting the breaker without turning off the generator
could have blown the alarm system?

I'm totally guessing here, but I think the transformer may have
blown when you tripped the generator, and the alarm ran on batteries
until they were exhausted. Then, the alarm shut down to prevent
destroying the battery. Although the 13.5 V seems really
high for a 12 V gel cell not being charged. So, there may be
another fault, such as a shorted rectifier in the alarm panel.
That would blow the transformer. But, then the panel should have
run off the battery for at least a while, and in the process
partially discharged the battery. So, it is a bit puzzling.

Jon

Hmm,
If some thing shorted or popped or burned, you can smell it
and see it as well.

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 09:12:21 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

Just start with replacing the x-former and battery.

I understand. The battery is probably at least 2 years old.
And the transformer is clearly shot.

I strongly suspect battery is no good.

That's the funny thing. I would have expected the battery to run
the system until it was dead; but the open-circuit voltage was
good.

When you check the voltage did you remove a lead from battery terminal
since you mentioned no load voltage.

Yes. I checked the battery voltage with nothing attached, just as I had
checked the transformer resistance, also with all wires removed.

I also powered the transformer with an extension cord, and checked
the outputs, which were zero.

Your battery is not holding charge so when x-former quit, it couldn't
supply the necessary juice.

It might be that the battery was actually bad, but, it had enough
juice to run the DMM (which doesn't take all that much current).

"Danny D'Amico"

Dead alarm system troubleshooting advice requested ...
Yesterday, I had been messing with the main breakers, and accidentally
shut the main 200A breaker without turning off the power generator switch;
so the Generac kicked in; and I heard the alarm system in the garage
vehemently complaining with persistent loud beeps.

I immediately reset everything, and I thought it was all ok.

Then, today, the alarm system sounded three loud long beeps, and
went totally dead.

Troubleshooting with my Fluke after removing the alarm system external
wires shows the external ELK-TRG21640 16.5VAC, 45VA power-supply
transformer plugged into an outlet has an open secondary, and when
plugged into an extension cord, there is no voltage from any of the
three screws on the secondary windings:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/1...d64103f6_o.gif


** There must be a fuse inside that unit - wired in series with the 16.5V
secondary.


If I thought it was that simple, I'd just replace the transformer;
but I wondered why the backup battery didn't run the alarm system.

** It's probably worn out .


Testing the 12V 5AH battery out of the alarm system shows it's 13.5
volts DC (no load open circuit voltage), which, at least seems OK

** Open circuit testing a gell cell tells you nothing.

(I don't know how to load it though):


So, two things must be wrong:
1. The ELK AC transformer secondary opened up suddenly
2. Maybe the power supply inside the alarm system box went bad suddenly
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3751/1...ff0ca903_o.gif

** The voltages on the transformer went high enough to cause a big increase
in current and fuse failure, maybe something inside the alarm box failed
too.

Any other troubleshooting suggestions?

** Get a new tranny and a new battery and try them - the battery first.


.... Phil

"Danny D'Amico"

** Might seem clever to crosspost and then direct all replies to one NG -
but it ain't.

Cos no-body on "sci.electronics.repair" can see any replies at all.

And that is really stupid and annoying.
-----------------------------------------


..... Phil

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 06:37:01 -0800, mike wrote:

Transformers often have thermal fuses inside them.
But the ones I've replaced were in the primary.

This is a pretty common transformer based on a quick google search
for the ELK TRG1640 (16.5VAC, 45VA).

They have a green LED, which no longer lights in my busted
transformer.

Interestingly, this PDF specification sheet intimates the
secondary is "auto fused" (whatever that means):
http://www.elkproducts.com/_literatu...440_Data_Sheet

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 10:58:18 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

Look closely at the blue electrolytic
capacitor on the module circuit board. It looks swollen and electrolytic
capacitors can dry out and become a short circuit, especially if they're
22 years old. ^_^

The electrolytic capacitor did look a little schmushed!
It was pressed up against the transister, so I bent it away from the
transistor.

BTW, I just noticed the power supply has a "lifetime limited warranty".
http://www.elkproducts.com/product-c...g-and-terminal

I wonder what that means...

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 07:35:36 -0700, RobertMacy wrote:

Aren't the built-in fuse links
inside those transformers in the primary, not the secondary?

Here it says for my ELK-TRG1640 transformer:
€¢ Auto-Resetting (PTC) Fused Secondary

http://www.elkproducts.com/product-c...g-and-terminal

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 15:54:59 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

If some thing shorted or popped or burned, you can smell it
and see it as well.

I should mention that I was pretty sure I smelled burnt "plastic", but,
since the garage door was open, I wasn't sure if it was coming from
outside, as it was windy, or if it was from the garage.

But, the smell *was* within minutes of the alarm wailing three loud
beeps before dying an untimely death.

The funny thing though, was that the Generac accident was the day
before, so, if it burned up at the time I smelled the burnt plastic
smell, that was a day after I had messed with the main breaker panel.

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:00:25 +1100, Phil Allison wrote:

** Get a new tranny and a new battery and try them - the battery first.

That makes a lot of sense, since the battery, in and of itself, should
power the system adequately.

I have a new transformer on order, although I belated realized there is a
"limited lifetime warranty" on the ELK-TRG-1640, as described he
http://www.elkproducts.com/product-c...g-and-terminal

Anyone ever take them up on their "limited" lifetime warranty?
http://www.elkproducts.com/_literatu...440_Data_Sheet

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:04:21 +1100, Phil Allison wrote:

** Might seem clever to crosspost and then direct all replies to one NG -
but it ain't.
Cos no-body on "sci.electronics.repair" can see any replies at all.
And that is really stupid and annoying.

I apologize. As the record shows (in alt.free.newsservers), I had a problem with
aioe.org triplicating posts, which, after a while, caused aioe to drop all posts
due to "too many errors". Pan, my news client, didn't tell me, so, all posts
were lost.

So, I didn't have access to aioe.

When I asked what to do, people said to switch to Solani. But, Solani *forces* you
to have a single followup! You can't possibly have a followup to the groups you posted
to. I asked alt.free.newsservers *why* Solani does that, and, the answer came back
they can do whatever they want (so, the point is, that it doesn't make any sense).

I can't win either way.

After a few days, Aioe let me back in (this is a recurring theme with them); so,
hopefully, this will get to both groups (and also alt.free.newsservers) because
I'll send it via aioe.

Of course, it could just go nowhere ... and I'll never know, because Pan won't warn
me until it's too late (but that's in another thread to news.software.nntp).

"Danny D'Amico"
Phil Allison wrote:

** Get a new tranny and a new battery and try them - the battery first.

That makes a lot of sense, since the battery, in and of itself, should
power the system adequately.

I have a new transformer on order, although I belated realized there is a
"limited lifetime warranty" on the ELK-TRG-1640, as described he
http://www.elkproducts.com/product-c...g-and-terminal


** I see no warranty details - all "Lifetime Limited Warranty" means is
that there is a time limit on the warranty.

Also, they claim there is a PTC in series with the secondary to prevent
overload damage.

PTCs self reset once they cool down.

IME a tranny that is well made, moisture sealed and has a PTC in the output
ought to last 10 to 20 years.



..... Phil

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:42:54 +1100, Phil Allison wrote:

** I see no warranty details - all "Lifetime Limited Warranty" means is
that there is a time limit on the warranty.

Me neither. I'll call them on Monday (they're not open weekends).

Also, they claim there is a PTC in series with the secondary to prevent
overload damage.
PTCs self reset once they cool down.

It has had plenty of time to cool down!
I think the burnt plastic smell gives me a clue.

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 17:59:43 +0000 (UTC), wrote:


The capacitor (that blue cylinder) on the power supply sure is an
interesting shape. It shouldn't have that dent near the right end.

I agree, I'd replace it.

On 11/22/2013 6:11 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 10:58:18 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

Look closely at the blue electrolytic
capacitor on the module circuit board. It looks swollen and electrolytic
capacitors can dry out and become a short circuit, especially if they're
22 years old. ^_^

The electrolytic capacitor did look a little schmushed!
It was pressed up against the transister, so I bent it away from the
transistor.

BTW, I just noticed the power supply has a "lifetime limited warranty".
http://www.elkproducts.com/product-c...g-and-terminal

I wonder what that means...


The link is to the newer transformers which have PTC "Positive
Temperature Coefficient" fuses. As I recall, that type of fuse is a
conductive matrix inside a polymer which expands when heated thus
raising the resistance of the fuse to that of a high value resistor.
As long as the power is on, there is enough enough current flowing
through it to keep it warm enough to present a high resistance. When the
current flow through it ceases, the fuse cools off and the resistance
drops to a low value until the current exceeds it's designed cut off.
Any gear with a PTC fuse will shut down until power is removed
allowing the fuse to reset. The old transformer you have has a short
piece of tiny wire attached in series to the secondary winding of the
transformer and it will melt when the current exceeds that which the
tiny wire will handle. It's a safety device to prevent overheating of
the transformer and the possibility of a fire. That module between the
battery and power leads is a battery saver which cuts the connection to
the battery when the voltage drops to a predetermined value which the
battery will not recover from if it's completely drained. I believe the
blue electrolytic capacitor is defective and the module may not work. It
could have presented a short circuit to the power transformer which
popped the fusible link. It's been a while since I did a lot of work in
the alarm industry but the basics haven't changed very much. There a guy
who posts here and in several groups who currently works in the alarm
business and I could find him and try to get him to respond to your
post. ^_^

TDD

Alarm system transformer + power supply
(would both go bad at once?)
NO

Hot-Text wrote:
Alarm system transformer + power supply
(would both go bad at once?)
NO




Hi,
As well as float charging battery.

Danny D'Amico wrote:

Dead alarm system troubleshooting advice requested ...

Please ask in alt.security.alarms to get better responses from
professional installers.

I hate discussing alarm systems here for reasons I'll keep to myself for
now.

--

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Ben Franklin

wrote in message ...


Good grief. It's charged to 13.5 volts

LOL! I don't think I have ever seen a battery, showing full charge, be
bad. It might not last long, but that is not the issue, here.

Properly maintained, a gel battery will last for a very long time. The
problem is the charging circuits really don't maintain and tend to die
without notice. You will find this in exit signs with emergency lighting.
Everyone I have ever checked had a dead battery along with a dead charging
board. Yanked and LED replacement installed with better electronics.

Cost more, but it works. Now, convincing the facility maintenance manager
to have them self, or someone, do an annual check on that little test button
on the buggers, instead of waiting for a power failure to clue them in on the
fact that the thing does not work.

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 11:19:17 -0700, RobertMacy wrote:

Isn't that 880 now? changes where it crosses 101.

I think it changes from 17 to 880 where it crosses the new 85.


HWY 17 turns into 880 at 280.

I was thinking about this and was wondering if the transformer was
on its way out, anyway, or if the generator presented an open neutral
situation on start-up. Maybe a combination of the two.

I had a messenger cable break at one of my old homes, and without
actually getting up on the roof and inspecting it, one would have
never noticed the break. Anyway, pretty much every non-protected
wall-wart in the house fried. Thankfully, the important ones were
on a UPS. I could care less about the phone and the foo foo crap
in the bathroom. :-)

On Saturday, November 23, 2013 1:01:04 AM UTC-5, Nightcrawler® wrote:
wrote in message ...





Good grief. It's charged to 13.5 volts



LOL! I don't think I have ever seen a battery, showing full charge, be

bad. It might not last long, but that is not the issue, here.



Exactly. And even if it is bad, you don't need to buy a new one,
as has been suggested to find out. Danny has a meter. If he hooks
it up and it still measures around 12V and the alarm doesn't power
up, it's *not* the battery. Also, if the alarm is totally screwed,
there is no sense in wasting money on a new battery. A new panel
typically comes with a battery included.

On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 00:01:04 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

Good grief. It's charged to 13.5 volts

LOL! I don't think I have ever seen a battery, showing full charge, be
bad. It might not last long, but that is not the issue, here.

That's my experience also.
For example, a fully-charged d-cell will be something around 1.65VDC, and,
if it's low, it will be something around 1.4VDC (give or take) but not
over its nominal charge of 1.5VDC.

Then again, the loading test is more accurate; but you have to know the
load and you have to start with a fully-charged battery, so it's harder
to accomplish.

On Saturday, November 23, 2013 9:42:46 AM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 00:01:04 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:



Good grief. It's charged to 13.5 volts



LOL! I don't think I have ever seen a battery, showing full charge, be

bad. It might not last long, but that is not the issue, here.



That's my experience also.

For example, a fully-charged d-cell will be something around 1.65VDC, and,

if it's low, it will be something around 1.4VDC (give or take) but not

over its nominal charge of 1.5VDC.



Then again, the loading test is more accurate; but you have to know the

load and you have to start with a fully-charged battery, so it's harder

to accomplish.

In your case, it's very easy to establish if the battery is the
problem or not. Measure the voltage with it connected to the alarm.

Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 00:01:04 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

Good grief. It's charged to 13.5 volts

LOL! I don't think I have ever seen a battery, showing full charge, be
bad. It might not last long, but that is not the issue, here.

That's my experience also.
For example, a fully-charged d-cell will be something around 1.65VDC, and,
if it's low, it will be something around 1.4VDC (give or take) but not
over its nominal charge of 1.5VDC.

Then again, the loading test is more accurate; but you have to know the
load and you have to start with a fully-charged battery, so it's harder
to accomplish.

Have you ever worked on car charging system and battery? If battery
shows mere 12V it is a toast. Charging voltage is around 14V as you
know. And in this case hi Z Fluke is not a good choice, use something
like Simpson 260. If I were you I'd replace x-former and battery and
start from there. If you want, put a in-line fuse and protect them in
case. You can talk and and talk and scratch your head all day and
it is not gonna get fixed.

On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 21:19:06 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

The link is to the newer transformers which have PTC "Positive
Temperature Coefficient" fuses.

Ah. I see. Mine is at least ten (maybe twenty?) years older.

The old transformer you have has a short piece of tiny wire attached
in series to the secondary winding of the transformer

That would explain why it blew once, and then died.
I did smell burnt plastic; but the garage doors were open so it
dissipated too quickly for me to identify from where. It was only
a while later, after testing it, that I realized the power
transformer had blown.

I believe the blue electrolytic capacitor is defective and the module
may not work. It could have presented a short circuit to the power
transformer which popped the fusible link.

I guess the good news is that the newer transformer will survive that,
if when I put it in, that's the case of the shorted power circuit.