On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:54:56 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

If the control board does not solve the problem, then what?

Normally I don't throw parts at a problem.

But,
1. The transformer is clearly bad (open secondary).
So I have one on order and another coming in via warranty repair.
But, this is not mandatory for operation anyway.

2. The battery protection board clearly has a capacitor that has
melted leads on the underside. What I plan on doing there is
replacing the capacitor; but this is not an important board
for operation either.

3. When I put 12VDC to the main circuit board, it beeps a long
beep, and nothing else happens.

So, what does that tell me?

It *could* be that the board simply needs to be "reset", so, I'll
read all the manuals I found he
http://www.alarmhow.net/manuals/Radionics/D2212/

Or, it could be that the battery is bad. So, I'll charge the battery
and test it under load, to see if that's the problem (but I don't
think it is simply because the board is only drawing 100ma at 12VDC).

Or, it could be that the D2212B circuit board is bad. If that's the
case, I'll try to troubleshoot it by testing where the power goes
when I plug in the battery.

But, the board should only cost about $100 so it's not all that bad
to just replace it. Bosch says they have plenty in stock, so, all I
have to do is find someone who will sell them to me as a pass through:

Bosch sells the board to ADI or to Anixer, who then sells it to a
pass-through contractor who sells it to me.

If the board doesn't work, then I'd be surprised; but it would then
be time to replace the entire shebang.

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:49:47 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 12:46:54 -0800, Oren wrote:

I'm not an accountant, but I suspect it has something to do with
the dollar bill? $

You're not kidding!

I called Bosch/Radionics at 800-538-5807 who told me they have plenty
of D2212B(LT) boards in stock (the LT, they told me, simply means it
comes without the external transformer in the kit).

But they can't sell them to me. They told me to go to Anixer or ADI.

So, I call Anixer at 925-469-8500, who says they can't sell the board
to me, due to their legal agreements. I have to get it from a contractor
as a "pass-through" (whatever that means).

So, this seems to be the path of the board:
Bosch/Radionics sells it to Anixer who sells it to the pass-through
contractor who sells it to me.

I wonder what the markup is each time?

Anyway, now I am looking for a "pass though" contractor, whatever that
means. I mean, I realize it's an "installer"; but, I don't want an
installer. I want a pass-through guy to just send me the board.

What do I google for?
(The Anixer guys couldn't tell me.)

Now for the ADI guys ... 800.233.6261 ... ... they won't sell it to
me either. I need a contractor's license. Sheesh.

It's getting to be harder to get a stinkin' alarm system replacement
board than it was to get garage door torsion springs!

Does anyone know how I can find a "pass through" contractor?

Some things are proprietary; only sold to those in the specific trade.

I went through this at work one time.

Find your local http://www.grainger.com store.

Ask if they have what you need or if they can order it.

Tell them you are from the "government". Pay in cash using; say,
Forestry Service or some such.

They will sell under that account with cash money.

Example: I stated my agency, which did not have an account, but the
guy found another agency and sold it to me using that account for a
cash purchase.

Worth a try...

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:57:04 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

You are thinking analog, now most any thing is digital. Even reelays
are solid state devies, no electro mechanical things.

I'm ok with simply replacing the Bosch/Radionics D2212BLT board
(where the LT simply means the board kit came without the transformer).

Bosch has plenty in stock, but they won't sell them to me.
ADI & Anixer will only sell them to a contractor.

I just had a long conversation with the guys at http://obsoleteradionics.com
who will try to get the board for me (they say it's the most common
board out there).

Jeeesuz. Bosch has this market locked up tight!

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 22:04:11 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

But, the board should only cost about $100 so it's not all that bad
to just replace it. Bosch says they have plenty in stock, so, all I
have to do is find someone who will sell them to me as a pass through:

I can get the board for $104 but it's out of stock.
The retail is $169, I'm told.
So, now, all I need to do is find the board in that price range
from a "pass through" guy who has a Bosch agreement.

You'd think this would be the easy part!

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:13:30 -0800, Oren wrote:

Tell them you are from the "government".

Wow. Gotta try that trick!

Yes. Voltage spike, lightning strike, leg dropped across from power
company, or some moron accidentally touching the neutral in the breaker box
to the other leg of the incoming power. They can cause both to fail. All
are sudden over voltage conditions.


---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 22:27:52 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:13:30 -0800, Oren wrote:

Tell them you are from the "government".

Wow. Gotta try that trick!

I was being honest. To save time I went downtown and bought the
"proprietary" part (restricted to the trade).

The electrician could have just as well done the same thing. The part
came from my office budget, so I went because I needed the electrician
on the job - nothing from his budget.

Took cash issued from the business office cashier

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:54:56 -0700, Tony Hwang
wrote:

If the control board does not solve the problem, then what?

Um, spend more money?

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 12:46:54 -0800, Oren wrote:

I'm not an accountant, but I suspect it has something to do with
the dollar bill? $

You're not kidding!

I called Bosch/Radionics at 800-538-5807 who told me they have plenty
of D2212B(LT) boards in stock (the LT, they told me, simply means it
comes without the external transformer in the kit).

But they can't sell them to me. They told me to go to Anixer or ADI.

So, I call Anixer at 925-469-8500, who says they can't sell the board
to me, due to their legal agreements. I have to get it from a contractor
as a "pass-through" (whatever that means).

So, this seems to be the path of the board:
Bosch/Radionics sells it to Anixer who sells it to the pass-through
contractor who sells it to me.

I wonder what the markup is each time?

Anyway, now I am looking for a "pass though" contractor, whatever that
means. I mean, I realize it's an "installer"; but, I don't want an
installer. I want a pass-through guy to just send me the board.

What do I google for?
(The Anixer guys couldn't tell me.)

Now for the ADI guys ... 800.233.6261 ... ... they won't sell it to
me either. I need a contractor's license. Sheesh.

It's getting to be harder to get a stinkin' alarm system replacement
board than it was to get garage door torsion springs!

Does anyone know how I can find a "pass through" contractor?


Where are you located?

Maybe someone on this list with electronic skills can take a look at it and
maybe repair the board(s).

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 18:04:55 -0500, tm wrote:

Where are you located?

Maybe someone on this list with electronic skills can take a look at it and
maybe repair the board(s).

Silicon Valley, of all places.

I find it hard to believe THREE things would go bad at once.

I can run rudimentary tests on the D2212B board, but, what
I need to do is read all the PDFs I found to see if any
offer advice as to whether there is a RESET.

There's a reset button on the wall controllers,
but, they don't power up with the battery in place
so, *something* is wrong.

If it's a simple board reset, that's what I'll look for first.

Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:54:56 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

If the control board does not solve the problem, then what?

Normally I don't throw parts at a problem.

But,
1. The transformer is clearly bad (open secondary).
So I have one on order and another coming in via warranty repair.
But, this is not mandatory for operation anyway.

2. The battery protection board clearly has a capacitor that has
melted leads on the underside. What I plan on doing there is
replacing the capacitor; but this is not an important board
for operation either.

3. When I put 12VDC to the main circuit board, it beeps a long
beep, and nothing else happens.

So, what does that tell me?

It *could* be that the board simply needs to be "reset", so, I'll
read all the manuals I found he
http://www.alarmhow.net/manuals/Radionics/D2212/

Or, it could be that the battery is bad. So, I'll charge the battery
and test it under load, to see if that's the problem (but I don't
think it is simply because the board is only drawing 100ma at 12VDC).

Or, it could be that the D2212B circuit board is bad. If that's the
case, I'll try to troubleshoot it by testing where the power goes
when I plug in the battery.

But, the board should only cost about $100 so it's not all that bad
to just replace it. Bosch says they have plenty in stock, so, all I
have to do is find someone who will sell them to me as a pass through:

Bosch sells the board to ADI or to Anixer, who then sells it to a
pass-through contractor who sells it to me.

If the board doesn't work, then I'd be surprised; but it would then
be time to replace the entire shebang.

Hmmm,
Sorry to say this, I think you don't have basic logic TS skill and
expertise/experience. Can you use Huntron tester or simple Boolean
algebra for an example? One way of logical TS is process of elimination.
You did not eliminate anything yet. Ever heard of shot gun method?
When you are in a hurry, you do it based on your experience.
Or you'll never pin point what is wrong. I lived all my life from
Vacuum tube era in electronics as a hobby and career.

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:54:56 -0700, Tony Hwang
wrote:

Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 08:41:54 -0800, doug wrote:

You will need keypads to match the replacement board, the sensors should be
OK although you may have to change the EOL resistors (if they are used).

If you have any 2 wire smoke detectors you may have to check compatibility
with the new panel.

I do have smoke alarms but don't know how they're wired.

Likewise, I have motion detectors and mostly hard-wired door/window
switches, but some are wireless (the repair ones mostly).

I called a few outfits today looking for the D2212B(LT) control board:
http://www.alarmhow.net/manuals/Radionics/D2212/

Apparently Bosch (who bought Radionics) won't sell to a consumer, so I'll
need to get the D2212B board from either a distributor or dealer.

They retail about $100 to $125 but they're almost all out of stock on
the web pages that I've found them listed.

If I buy a new board that is not the D2212B, am I to conclude I *must*
go with Bosch/Radionics since I do have wireless devices?

Hmmm,
If the control board does not solve the problem, then what?

Um, call someone who knows what they're doing?

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 12:46:54 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:28:38 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

Why wouldn't the wired and wireless alarm devices on the doors
and windows be compatible with *any* manufacturer?

I'm not an accountant, but I suspect it has something to do with the
dollar bill? $

Nice.

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:13:30 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:49:47 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 12:46:54 -0800, Oren wrote:

I'm not an accountant, but I suspect it has something to do with
the dollar bill? $

You're not kidding!

I called Bosch/Radionics at 800-538-5807 who told me they have plenty
of D2212B(LT) boards in stock (the LT, they told me, simply means it
comes without the external transformer in the kit).

But they can't sell them to me. They told me to go to Anixer or ADI.

So, I call Anixer at 925-469-8500, who says they can't sell the board
to me, due to their legal agreements. I have to get it from a contractor
as a "pass-through" (whatever that means).

So, this seems to be the path of the board:
Bosch/Radionics sells it to Anixer who sells it to the pass-through
contractor who sells it to me.

I wonder what the markup is each time?

Anyway, now I am looking for a "pass though" contractor, whatever that
means. I mean, I realize it's an "installer"; but, I don't want an
installer. I want a pass-through guy to just send me the board.

What do I google for?
(The Anixer guys couldn't tell me.)

Now for the ADI guys ... 800.233.6261 ... ... they won't sell it to
me either. I need a contractor's license. Sheesh.

It's getting to be harder to get a stinkin' alarm system replacement
board than it was to get garage door torsion springs!

Does anyone know how I can find a "pass through" contractor?

Some things are proprietary; only sold to those in the specific trade.

I went through this at work one time.

Find your local http://www.grainger.com store.

Ask if they have what you need or if they can order it.

Tell them you are from the "government". Pay in cash using; say,
Forestry Service or some such.

Tell them you're from the IRS. They'll give it to you. ;-)

They will sell under that account with cash money.

Example: I stated my agency, which did not have an account, but the
guy found another agency and sold it to me using that account for a
cash purchase.


Worth a try...

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 19:14:27 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 12:46:54 -0800, Oren wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:28:38 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

Why wouldn't the wired and wireless alarm devices on the doors
and windows be compatible with *any* manufacturer?

I'm not an accountant, but I suspect it has something to do with the
dollar bill? $

Nice.

I'll never forget the moment. Before the professor even said a word,
he used chalk on the blackboard to make a dollar sign ($).

"Everything centers around this!", he said.

His Cuban accent was so difficult to understand, I ask my wife to
attend class with me one night. Even she could not understand what he
was saying.

....but most everything does center around the dollar

--
Q: Why do men get their great ideas in bed?
A: Because their plugged into a genius!

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 19:13:57 -0500, krw wrote:

Um, call someone who knows what they're doing?

Is that how Alt.Home.Repair works?
Is that how Alt.Security.Alarms works?
Is that how Sci.Electronics.Repair works?

Call someone who knows what they're doing?
That's why I'm asking here.

You guys are supposed to know what you're doing!

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 16:46:54 -0800, Oren wrote:

...but most everything does center around the dollar

After a half dozen phone calls today, I see that Bosch has their distributors
and dealers locked up.

They won't even quote a price, even though they have plenty of these
boards in stock (it's the most common board, according to one guy).

The trick, just as it was with garage door torsion springs, is to find
the "pass through" supplier, like Dan Musick of DDM fame.

Doesn't anyone on the alarm newsgroup know a pass-through supplier?

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:53:47 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 16:46:54 -0800, Oren wrote:

...but most everything does center around the dollar

After a half dozen phone calls today, I see that Bosch has their distributors
and dealers locked up.

They won't even quote a price, even though they have plenty of these
boards in stock (it's the most common board, according to one guy).

The trick, just as it was with garage door torsion springs, is to find
the "pass through" supplier, like Dan Musick of DDM fame.

Doesn't anyone on the alarm newsgroup know a pass-through supplier?

Did you call or check with Grainger, locally, as I mildly suggested?

There is more than one way to "skin a cat"

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:51:36 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 19:13:57 -0500, krw wrote:

Um, call someone who knows what they're doing?

Is that how Alt.Home.Repair works?
Is that how Alt.Security.Alarms works?
Is that how Sci.Electronics.Repair works?

Um, the point is that the alarm system doesn't work.

Call someone who knows what they're doing?
That's why I'm asking here.

You can't be serious. Debugging electronics by long distance is
difficult, at best, and impossible if the person at the other end is
completely helpless.

You guys are supposed to know what you're doing!

You have a bigger problem than even I suspected.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:53:47 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 16:46:54 -0800, Oren wrote:

...but most everything does center around the dollar

After a half dozen phone calls today, I see that Bosch has their distributors
and dealers locked up.

I wouldn't expect any differently. They rely on each other for the
food on their tables.

They won't even quote a price, even though they have plenty of these
boards in stock (it's the most common board, according to one guy).

Why bother quoting it if they can't sell it to you. Have you tried
showing up at quitting time with ten or twenty Franklins?

The trick, just as it was with garage door torsion springs, is to find
the "pass through" supplier, like Dan Musick of DDM fame.

Doesn't anyone on the alarm newsgroup know a pass-through supplier?

How about your local alarm company?

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:39:11 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

I don't see a fuse on the Radionics D2212 BLT circuit board:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2866/1...cdea2144_o.gif

And, I don't (yet) see a fuse in the Radionics D2212B LT diagram:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2861/1...69e24a57_o.gif

And, I don't see an inline fuse in the "rats nest" below the board:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7409/1...0ebeea29_o.gif

I'm not sure what to make of these measurements:
1. Battery hooked to power supply is 12.87VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3675/1...62c93b69_o.gif
2. Yet, battery hooked to PWR and GND blades of power supply = 0VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3671/1...db5107c8_o.gif
3. Battery hooked to just GND blade on the power supply = 12.87VDC:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7360/1...cb4a46a6_o.gif
4. Battery hooked to just PWR blade of power supply = OVDC:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5516/1...cf8b97f4_o.gif

What are the voltage measurements of the pins by the
capacitor?

Are you asking me to check the DC voltage across the capacitor
of the D135A low-battery disconnect circuit?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5504/1...a158a0de_o.gif

Specifically these two points, where I had previously measured the
resistance (with no power to the circuit) across that same cap?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5484/1...1013b313_o.gif

What connects to J1 and J2 (GND and PWR post, respectively)?
J1 on the D135A board goes to gnd on the Radionics D2212B board.
J2 on the D135A board goes to pwr on the Radionics D2212B board.

That black object between J1 and J2 is a relay. This relay needs
to be activated by something, and I am guessing a power failure
deactivates this relay, enabling the battery back-up.

I do not know the answer. Here's a closeup of that relay:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2894/1...045e3abe_o.gif

All I know, for sure, that's bad is that the ELK-TRG1640 transformer
has a blown secondary (open circuit) but I don't know what blew it:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/1...d64103f6_o.gif

So, are J1 and J2 inputs with the connector being the output, or
vice versa?

I think the D135A low-battery disconnect is supposed to be taped
to the battery, which turns off the circuit at 9.5V but otherwise
does nothing else; so that's why I think it's weird that I get
0 volts across J1 and J2 when the battery is hooked up.

To see if it was the battery, I charged the battery on a car
charger (6 amp limited) and I was surprised to see the battery
only took about 30 ma (I had to measure it since it was too low
for the car charger gauge to show any movement).

After five minutes, I took it off, and the battery measured at
13.5 volts (some of which might be surface charge):

Then, I hooked that battery to the D135A and measured across
J1 and J2 again (which seems to be the 12VDC input to the
alarm circuit board).

1. The voltage across the battery inputs was 13.31VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3780/1...16f7c34e_o.gif

2. The voltage across the PWR and GND (J2 & J1) spaces was 0V:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3786/1...e6cba24f_o.gif

3. The voltage across the battery & the GND (J1) was 13.31 VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3772/1...beeeeed8_o.gif

4. But the voltage across the battery & the PWR (J2) was 0 VDC:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5511/1...a8e37a41_o.gif

I don't understand that.

5. The voltage across the electrolytic capacitor was 0V:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5508/1...9b0dc00d_o.gif

6. And, the capacitor leads appear to have heated up at one point:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3795/1...4e59eb22_o.gif

So, could it be that the 16.VAC transformer opened up a secondary
when the battery protection circuit opened up a capacitor?

Seems unlikely, doesn't it? Especially just from turning off the
main breaker with the generator kicking in the day before?




It is a real simple circuit. There is an NPN transistor (Q1) that drives the
relay. The black diode is across the relay coil to protect the transistor.
The other diode is a zener in series with the 2.4 k resistor to the base of
the transistor. When the battery voltage is above 9.x volts, the zener will
conduct and turn on the transistor that will in turn operate the relay. The
relay will make the connection from the red wire to the battery (W1) to the
J2 terminal marked power. It will supply voltage to the alarm panel until
the battery voltage drops below the zener diode conduction point.

Charge your battery for a while and see if it will light a simple tail light
bulb. Measure the battery with the bulb connected and lit.


tm

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 16:41:36 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

It actually looks like someone has replaced that electrolytic before.
Oh yea, looking at your other pictures, it now looks like the board was
manufactured in 1998. ^_^

There were unused leads for two batteries, so, I suspect there were
two batteries in series initially. The battery in there now doesn't
look all that old. The equipment was made in the 90s as you surmised.


You should peel off the double sided tape on the LV Disconnect board and see
if any track has been damaged.

tm

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:10:17 -0500, krw wrote:

You can't be serious. Debugging electronics by long distance is
difficult, at best, and impossible if the person at the other end is
completely helpless.

My main question is *where* can I find a "pass through" alarm servicing
company that will sell me just the board for the $105 it's worth.

This guy can't find the boards (I talked to him personally):
http://obsoleteradionics.com/index.p...&productId=816

Nobody will sell them to him.
Yet, Bosch told me that they have plenty in stock.

So, it's only a question of finding the right "pass through" guy.

I'm hoping at least one person on this thread knows that answer
since I don't.

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 17:09:26 -0800, Oren wrote:

Did you call or check with Grainger, locally

When I saw that suggestion, I ran a search at Grainger for D2212B:
http://www.grainger.com/search?searchQuery=d2212b

But, nothing came up.

Then I searched alarm systems, and only the sensors came up.
I didn't call them though.

I'll call 'em tomorrow, because, well, because huckleberries are
found where they are, and not where I might think they are.

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:13:04 -0500, krw wrote:

Why bother quoting it if they can't sell it to you.

My logic in asking would be the same as my friend asking
me how much my cellphone cost. I could still quote the
price even if I had no intention of selling it to him.

They all told me exactly the same thing. If they told
me the price, they would be breaking their legal agreement
with the manufacturer.

So, one thing I've learned here is that Bosch sure knows
how to lock up a market. I'm pretty sure I will have a
source by tomorrow though, as I have a few leads pending
from my phone calls.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 02:06:02 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 17:09:26 -0800, Oren wrote:

Did you call or check with Grainger, locally

When I saw that suggestion, I ran a search at Grainger for D2212B:
http://www.grainger.com/search?searchQuery=d2212b

But, nothing came up.

Then I searched alarm systems, and only the sensors came up.
I didn't call them though.

I'll call 'em tomorrow, because, well, because huckleberries are
found where they are, and not where I might think they are.

Right. If they are not there, Grainger can look for them, order them -
just like collecting huckleberries in other places.

Oren wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 02:06:02 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 17:09:26 -0800, Oren wrote:

Did you call or check with Grainger, locally

When I saw that suggestion, I ran a search at Grainger for D2212B:
http://www.grainger.com/search?searchQuery=d2212b

But, nothing came up.

Then I searched alarm systems, and only the sensors came up.
I didn't call them though.

I'll call 'em tomorrow, because, well, because huckleberries are
found where they are, and not where I might think they are.

Right. If they are not there, Grainger can look for them, order them -
just like collecting huckleberries in other places.

Hi,
I spent couple mins. just now perusing eBay with a key word Radionics
alarm control board. There were many listed. I did not went through them
all.

Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:10:17 -0500, krw wrote:

You can't be serious. Debugging electronics by long distance is
difficult, at best, and impossible if the person at the other end is
completely helpless.

My main question is *where* can I find a "pass through" alarm servicing
company that will sell me just the board for the $105 it's worth.

This guy can't find the boards (I talked to him personally):
http://obsoleteradionics.com/index.p...&productId=816

Nobody will sell them to him.
Yet, Bosch told me that they have plenty in stock.

So, it's only a question of finding the right "pass through" guy.

I'm hoping at least one person on this thread knows that answer
since I don't.

Hi,
What if the new board blows up when replaced? Are planing to protect it
some how from that occuring? BTW, looking at arrow marking on diode
can yu tell which direction current electron or current flows?
Can you tell which lead is cathode or anode?

On 11/25/2013 06:53 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:

Doesn't anyone on the alarm newsgroup know a pass-through supplier?


You shoulda got here a coupla years ago, Robert Bass would sell
anything to anybody.



technomaNge
--
If I remember correctly.

tm wrote:

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:39:11 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

I don't see a fuse on the Radionics D2212 BLT circuit board:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2866/1...cdea2144_o.gif

And, I don't (yet) see a fuse in the Radionics D2212B LT diagram:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2861/1...69e24a57_o.gif

And, I don't see an inline fuse in the "rats nest" below the board:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7409/1...0ebeea29_o.gif

I'm not sure what to make of these measurements:
1. Battery hooked to power supply is 12.87VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3675/1...62c93b69_o.gif
2. Yet, battery hooked to PWR and GND blades of power supply = 0VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3671/1...db5107c8_o.gif
3. Battery hooked to just GND blade on the power supply = 12.87VDC:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7360/1...cb4a46a6_o.gif
4. Battery hooked to just PWR blade of power supply = OVDC:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5516/1...cf8b97f4_o.gif

What are the voltage measurements of the pins by the
capacitor?

Are you asking me to check the DC voltage across the capacitor
of the D135A low-battery disconnect circuit?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5504/1...a158a0de_o.gif

Specifically these two points, where I had previously measured the
resistance (with no power to the circuit) across that same cap?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5484/1...1013b313_o.gif

What connects to J1 and J2 (GND and PWR post, respectively)?
J1 on the D135A board goes to gnd on the Radionics D2212B board.
J2 on the D135A board goes to pwr on the Radionics D2212B board.

That black object between J1 and J2 is a relay. This relay needs
to be activated by something, and I am guessing a power failure
deactivates this relay, enabling the battery back-up.

I do not know the answer. Here's a closeup of that relay:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2894/1...045e3abe_o.gif

All I know, for sure, that's bad is that the ELK-TRG1640 transformer
has a blown secondary (open circuit) but I don't know what blew it:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/1...d64103f6_o.gif

So, are J1 and J2 inputs with the connector being the output, or
vice versa?

I think the D135A low-battery disconnect is supposed to be taped
to the battery, which turns off the circuit at 9.5V but otherwise
does nothing else; so that's why I think it's weird that I get
0 volts across J1 and J2 when the battery is hooked up.

To see if it was the battery, I charged the battery on a car
charger (6 amp limited) and I was surprised to see the battery
only took about 30 ma (I had to measure it since it was too low
for the car charger gauge to show any movement).

After five minutes, I took it off, and the battery measured at
13.5 volts (some of which might be surface charge):

Then, I hooked that battery to the D135A and measured across
J1 and J2 again (which seems to be the 12VDC input to the
alarm circuit board).

1. The voltage across the battery inputs was 13.31VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3780/1...16f7c34e_o.gif

2. The voltage across the PWR and GND (J2 & J1) spaces was 0V:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3786/1...e6cba24f_o.gif

3. The voltage across the battery & the GND (J1) was 13.31 VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3772/1...beeeeed8_o.gif

4. But the voltage across the battery & the PWR (J2) was 0 VDC:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5511/1...a8e37a41_o.gif

I don't understand that.

Hi,
You should. That Omron relay contats can be open or closed.
Is it NO or NC relay? Is the coil good? Have you metered them out?
What is the findings? Did you looked up the specs. of that very common
relay?

tm wrote:

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:39:11 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

I don't see a fuse on the Radionics D2212 BLT circuit board:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2866/1...cdea2144_o.gif

And, I don't (yet) see a fuse in the Radionics D2212B LT diagram:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2861/1...69e24a57_o.gif

And, I don't see an inline fuse in the "rats nest" below the board:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7409/1...0ebeea29_o.gif

I'm not sure what to make of these measurements:
1. Battery hooked to power supply is 12.87VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3675/1...62c93b69_o.gif
2. Yet, battery hooked to PWR and GND blades of power supply = 0VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3671/1...db5107c8_o.gif
3. Battery hooked to just GND blade on the power supply = 12.87VDC:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7360/1...cb4a46a6_o.gif
4. Battery hooked to just PWR blade of power supply = OVDC:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5516/1...cf8b97f4_o.gif

What are the voltage measurements of the pins by the
capacitor?

Are you asking me to check the DC voltage across the capacitor
of the D135A low-battery disconnect circuit?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5504/1...a158a0de_o.gif

Specifically these two points, where I had previously measured the
resistance (with no power to the circuit) across that same cap?
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5484/1...1013b313_o.gif

What connects to J1 and J2 (GND and PWR post, respectively)?
J1 on the D135A board goes to gnd on the Radionics D2212B board.
J2 on the D135A board goes to pwr on the Radionics D2212B board.

That black object between J1 and J2 is a relay. This relay needs
to be activated by something, and I am guessing a power failure
deactivates this relay, enabling the battery back-up.

I do not know the answer. Here's a closeup of that relay:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2894/1...045e3abe_o.gif

All I know, for sure, that's bad is that the ELK-TRG1640 transformer
has a blown secondary (open circuit) but I don't know what blew it:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/1...d64103f6_o.gif

So, are J1 and J2 inputs with the connector being the output, or
vice versa?

I think the D135A low-battery disconnect is supposed to be taped
to the battery, which turns off the circuit at 9.5V but otherwise
does nothing else; so that's why I think it's weird that I get
0 volts across J1 and J2 when the battery is hooked up.

To see if it was the battery, I charged the battery on a car
charger (6 amp limited) and I was surprised to see the battery
only took about 30 ma (I had to measure it since it was too low
for the car charger gauge to show any movement).

After five minutes, I took it off, and the battery measured at
13.5 volts (some of which might be surface charge):

Then, I hooked that battery to the D135A and measured across
J1 and J2 again (which seems to be the 12VDC input to the
alarm circuit board).

1. The voltage across the battery inputs was 13.31VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3780/1...16f7c34e_o.gif

2. The voltage across the PWR and GND (J2 & J1) spaces was 0V:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3786/1...e6cba24f_o.gif

3. The voltage across the battery & the GND (J1) was 13.31 VDC:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3772/1...beeeeed8_o.gif

4. But the voltage across the battery & the PWR (J2) was 0 VDC:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5511/1...a8e37a41_o.gif

I don't understand that.

5. The voltage across the electrolytic capacitor was 0V:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5508/1...9b0dc00d_o.gif

6. And, the capacitor leads appear to have heated up at one point:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3795/1...4e59eb22_o.gif

So, could it be that the 16.VAC transformer opened up a secondary
when the battery protection circuit opened up a capacitor?

Seems unlikely, doesn't it? Especially just from turning off the
main breaker with the generator kicking in the day before?




It is a real simple circuit. There is an NPN transistor (Q1) that drives
the relay. The black diode is across the relay coil to protect the
transistor. The other diode is a zener in series with the 2.4 k resistor
to the base of the transistor. When the battery voltage is above 9.x
volts, the zener will conduct and turn on the transistor that will in
turn operate the relay. The relay will make the connection from the red
wire to the battery (W1) to the J2 terminal marked power. It will supply
voltage to the alarm panel until the battery voltage drops below the
zener diode conduction point.

Charge your battery for a while and see if it will light a simple tail
light bulb. Measure the battery with the bulb connected and lit.


tm

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:10:17 -0500, krw wrote:

You can't be serious. Debugging electronics by long distance is
difficult, at best, and impossible if the person at the other end is
completely helpless.

My main question is *where* can I find a "pass through" alarm servicing
company that will sell me just the board for the $105 it's worth.

This guy can't find the boards (I talked to him personally):
http://obsoleteradionics.com/index.p...&productId=816

Nobody will sell them to him.
Yet, Bosch told me that they have plenty in stock.

So, it's only a question of finding the right "pass through" guy.

I'm hoping at least one person on this thread knows that answer
since I don't.


Ditch the old and get the new. Many available:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/kg3yajf

(Hey, I finally remembered to copy the proper link. I know, what a moron...)

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:02:38 -0500, tm wrote:

You should peel off the double sided tape on the LV Disconnect board and see
if any track has been damaged.

Thanks for that advice. The sticky tape was covering the traces:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7345/1...7bb08f86_o.gif

So, following your advice, I peeled it mostly off, and looked with a
magnifying glass as you had suggested:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5474/1...1b250d61_o.gif

The 1,000uF 35V capacitor leads are burnt a bit, but, it could have been a
replacement cap for all I know, as the cap is not shorted nor is it an open
(it's about 350 ohms steady).
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7450/1...5e7abf80_o.gif

However, the fact is that this sequence shows *something* is wrong with
that D135A battery-protection board:

1. The battery is 13.31V
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3780/1...16f7c34e_o.gif

2. Connecting this way is 13.31V:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3772/1...beeeeed8_o.gif

3. But, connecting this way is 0V:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3786/1...e6cba24f_o.gif

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:44:07 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

Ditch the old and get the new. Many available:

Thanks. If it comes to that, I'll start fresh.
I have 24 zones to deal with though ...
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3756/1...0cc3544f_o.gif

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:07:16 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

What if the new board blows up when replaced?

That's why I only want to spend the $104 to replace it.
It *does* have overload circuit protection besides.

Are you planning to protect it some how from that occurring?

I've done plenty of smoke tests in my life.
This will be one of them.

BTW, looking at arrow marking on diode
can yu tell which direction current electron or current flows?
Can you tell which lead is the cathode or anode?

Heh heh ... here is a board I built many years ago to test
impedence (j omega stuff). I wired a diode to house current!
You'll notice the diodes. Particularly, you'll notice that the
nichrome wire resistor has the same impedance as the the capacitor.
(I couldn't find an inductor of a large enough size.)
FRONT: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5491/1...41b67f1e_o.gif
BACK: http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3800/1...928f65c1_o.gif

Also notice this circuit, where I used 555 timers (I think that's what
I used), way back in the 80's, to measure capacitance and resistance
simply by counting the flash rate ...
FRONT: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7362/1...3e84efa3_o.gif
BACK: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2893/1...fa50a070_o.gif

I did those circuits in the early 80's but, of course I know
about the shape of the diode curve and which is the anode and
which is the cathode.
http://sub.allaboutcircuits.com/images/03256.png

Everyone knows this basic stuff... even we accountants.

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:44:07 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

Ditch the old and get the new. Many available:

Thanks. If it comes to that, I'll start fresh.
I have 24 zones to deal with though ...
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3756/1...0cc3544f_o.gif


Before you start pratting around checking diodes, capacitors and the like
you should disconnect all the external wiring to the circuit board and power
the board up on its own to verify that the field wiring or expansion modules
are not the cause of the problem

Doug

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:02:38 -0500, tm wrote:

You should peel off the double sided tape on the LV Disconnect board and see
if any track has been damaged.


The 1,000uF 35V capacitor leads are burnt a bit, but, it could have been a
replacement cap for all I know, as the cap is not shorted nor is it an open
(it's about 350 ohms steady).

I hope that you realize that you are not getting a reading off of the capacitor.
Most likely that is the resistance of the other components on the board.

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:44:07 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

Ditch the old and get the new. Many available:

Thanks. If it comes to that, I'll start fresh.
I have 24 zones to deal with though ...
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3756/1...0cc3544f_o.gif


I am certain you may find something that works, and is probably
better than the ancient thing that you are playing with.

"doug" wrote in message ...

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:44:07 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

Ditch the old and get the new. Many available:

Thanks. If it comes to that, I'll start fresh.
I have 24 zones to deal with though ...
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3756/1...0cc3544f_o.gif


Before you start pratting around checking diodes, capacitors and the like you should disconnect all the external wiring to the
circuit board and power the board up on its own to verify that the field wiring or expansion modules are not the cause of the
problem

Doug


Great idea, Doug. After he removes the old system, and installs the new one, his
pet project on the side will be getting the old system working. :-)

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:02:38 -0500, tm wrote:

You should peel off the double sided tape on the LV Disconnect board and
see
if any track has been damaged.

Thanks for that advice. The sticky tape was covering the traces:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7345/1...7bb08f86_o.gif

So, following your advice, I peeled it mostly off, and looked with a
magnifying glass as you had suggested:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5474/1...1b250d61_o.gif

The 1,000uF 35V capacitor leads are burnt a bit, but, it could have been a
replacement cap for all I know, as the cap is not shorted nor is it an
open
(it's about 350 ohms steady).
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7450/1...5e7abf80_o.gif

However, the fact is that this sequence shows *something* is wrong with
that D135A battery-protection board:

1. The battery is 13.31V
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3780/1...16f7c34e_o.gif

2. Connecting this way is 13.31V:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3772/1...beeeeed8_o.gif

3. But, connecting this way is 0V:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3786/1...e6cba24f_o.gif


Use the meter test lead (red) to touch the red battery lead to the output
terminal briefly. You should hear the relay pull in. Then the power terminal
should be at 12 volts. This board depends on AC power being applied to the
alarm unit and some battery charging current needs to be available to arm
the battery protection board.

tm