On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 23:01:57 -0500, tm wrote:

That's normal. The secondary winding is floating.

Whew! I had expected a center-tapped transformer or something.

Thanks for setting my mind at ease on the odd voltages to the
ground lead.

The 20Volts I measured is probably because the RMS voltage must
be the 16.5Volts, so *that* part at least makes sense.

What voltage do you see across the aux terminals (DC)
with the transformer connected to the alarm board?

I measured 13.61 volts across the DC terminals with the AC
transformer in place.

That seems good, to me, if a bit low for charging a 12V battery.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7440/1...deb1394f_o.gif

Get a fuse in line with the secondary to save the transformer
in case something is shorted.

The transformer has a PTC fuse in the secondary.
But, I *do* agree with you.
I'm shocked there is no fuse.

I even asked at the intrusion alarm houses I visited today.
They said the board itself is protected from overloads, so,
nobody bothers with a fuse.

This reminds me of the situation with garage door torsion
springs where the "industry" puts in the cheapest spring
saving *them* ten bucks, but if you put in your own spring,
you *always* opt for the better (longer life) spring!

For me, I agree with you. I'm heading off to RadioShack
or Frys to get an inline fuse holder.

You don't want to damage the new transformer. I would
use a fuse equal to the secondary current rating marked
on the transformer.

It's a 16.5VAC (RMS) output, with a power of 45VA, so,
given I=P/V, I get I=45/16.5, where I is 2.7 Amps.

So, how does double that sound for a fuse, e.g.,
roughly around 5 Amps for the inline fuse for the
transformer secondary?

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message news
The voltage from the secondary to the ground (middle screw)
was weird (see picture where it's 3.5 volts on one side, and
1 volt on the other), which was wholly unexpected, but, probably
not important.

Not weird at all. The ground is electrically isolated from the
secondary of the transformer. What you are seeing is phantom
readings.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 23:21:02 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

Not weird at all. The ground is electrically isolated from the
secondary of the transformer. What you are seeing is phantom
readings.

Thanks for the confirmation. I have no experience with this type
of transformer. I wonder why they even have the center lug, but,
maybe it's for other applications.

If I were a technician, it wouldn't have taken this long to
get a replacement transformer, so I would have been at this
stage within the first hour had I a new one in stock.

The 12V 5AH battery also appears to be low, so, I'll get
a new one on the net. The one thing I'm worried about is
the terminal sizes.

In car batteries, the "series" determines if the battery
will fit (e.g., terminals on the side, or on the top, etc.).

But I'm not sure *how* one scopes out prospective gel cells.
For example, here's an ELK which looks like it should fit:
http://www.surveillance-video.com/el...hannelid=BCOME

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 05:32:09 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

In car batteries, the "series" determines if the battery
will fit (e.g., terminals on the side, or on the top, etc.).

But I'm not sure *how* one scopes out prospective gel cells.
For example, here's an ELK which looks like it should fit:
http://www.surveillance-video.com/el...hannelid=BCOME

Ooops. I pasted the wrong link (transposed the voltage and current rating).
Here's the link I had meant to post:
http://www.amazon.com/ELK-M1GSYS4-12.../dp/B00B1GMXZC

On 11/26/2013 10:55 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 14:21:40 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

Tony, I worked in the alarm industry years ago and to reset and alarm
board may not be as simple as shorting a jumper. This prevents another
company from hijacking your customer accounts. It's a security feature
and the reset is a code in static ram that may only be possible to
access by first putting in the installer's code. It really depends on
how easy or difficult the manufacturer has made it. ^_^

I visited a few intrusion alarm shops today and the Bosch definitely
has a LOCK code (that's what they called it) on the board.

That super-secret lock code allows *only* them to program the circuit
board.

The owner of the home is never provided that lock code, I was told.

Incredulously, I asked why, and they said it prevents burglaries.


You could probably purchase a DSC board and keypad to install in your
existing can, reusing the same wiring, switches and detectors. I think
there are several places on the web including eBay where you might get
one. I purchased a number of main boards only to install inside
generator transfer switches to monitor the generators. DSC makes pretty
good stuff. ^_^

http://www.dsc.com/

TDD

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 23:42:31 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

DSC makes pretty good stuff. ^_^
http://www.dsc.com/

Thanks for that reference, as its good to know what's
a good outfit from the plethora out there on the net.

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 23:01:57 -0500, tm wrote:

That's normal. The secondary winding is floating.

Whew! I had expected a center-tapped transformer or something.

Thanks for setting my mind at ease on the odd voltages to the
ground lead.

The 20Volts I measured is probably because the RMS voltage must
be the 16.5Volts, so *that* part at least makes sense.

What voltage do you see across the aux terminals (DC)
with the transformer connected to the alarm board?

I measured 13.61 volts across the DC terminals with the AC
transformer in place.

That seems good, to me, if a bit low for charging a 12V battery.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7440/1...deb1394f_o.gif

Get a fuse in line with the secondary to save the transformer
in case something is shorted.

The transformer has a PTC fuse in the secondary.
But, I *do* agree with you.
I'm shocked there is no fuse.

I even asked at the intrusion alarm houses I visited today.
They said the board itself is protected from overloads, so,
nobody bothers with a fuse.

This reminds me of the situation with garage door torsion
springs where the "industry" puts in the cheapest spring
saving *them* ten bucks, but if you put in your own spring,
you *always* opt for the better (longer life) spring!

For me, I agree with you. I'm heading off to RadioShack
or Frys to get an inline fuse holder.

You don't want to damage the new transformer. I would
use a fuse equal to the secondary current rating marked
on the transformer.

It's a 16.5VAC (RMS) output, with a power of 45VA, so,
given I=P/V, I get I=45/16.5, where I is 2.7 Amps.

So, how does double that sound for a fuse, e.g.,
roughly around 5 Amps for the inline fuse for the
transformer secondary?


You will measure 16.5 volts RMS AC when the load is 45 VA.

Use a 3 amp fuse.

Can you check the current draw with your meter on AC Amps? Just for
reference.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 02:18:47 +0000, Danny D'Amico wrote:

They all told me exactly the same thing. If they told
me the price, they would be breaking their legal agreement
with the manufacturer.

And, the funny thing is, after digging a bit, I find out that
the (suggested) price list was right here, all along, on the net!
http://www.industry.usa.siemens.com/...st-3-1-13.xlsx

Sheeesh!

Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 22:03:11 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

You checked the state of that Omron relay? Is it it NC or NO relay. Is
the contacts closed now or open, is the coil OK? Diode, and Zener...
If you are going after ICs, Huntron tracker comes handy.

Hi Tony,
The new power transformer solved (almost) all the problems!

Hi,
Good for you. From the beginning I told you to replace x-former,
check all the components on the board and test the battery with
automotive 12V bulb. Maybe you have selective
hearing or reading?, LOL! You are close to finish line now.

As soon as it arrived, I tested its output voltage (20 VAC),
which within the expected range:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5532/1...7612e531_o.gif

The voltage from the secondary to the ground (middle screw)
was weird (see picture where it's 3.5 volts on one side, and
1 volt on the other), which was wholly unexpected, but, probably
not important.

Even so, the moment I plugged in the power transformer,
the D2212B circuit and the control panels came to life.
There is 13.6V at the battery terminals without the battery plugged in.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7440/1...deb1394f_o.gif

I think, in the end, the only things that were bad we
1. The transformer secondary blew out
2. The D135A capacitor seems to have been overheated
3. The battery is apparently bad

Luckily, all those are easy to fix!

I'm not sure *how* to read what the control panel is trying to
tell me since it only says "Call for Service", but, I'm pretty
sure it's trying to tell me the (bad) battery isn't connected.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3765/1...d907e787_o.gif
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3829/1...cb163704_o.gif

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:15:55 -0600, technomaNge wrote:

You shoulda got here a coupla years ago, Robert Bass would sell
anything to anybody.

This guy seems like one who can and will sell any Bosch Radionics
board to anyone: http://obsoleteradionics.com

Nightcrawler® wrote:

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message
news
The voltage from the secondary to the ground (middle screw) was weird
(see picture where it's 3.5 volts on one side, and 1 volt on the
other), which was wholly unexpected, but, probably
not important.

Not weird at all. The ground is electrically isolated from the
secondary of the transformer. What you are seeing is phantom
readings.

Hi,
That's why I still keep and use old Simpson 260.
Probably I use it more than Fluke day in day out.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 23:54:09 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:

Good for you. From the beginning I told you to replace x-former,
check all the components on the board and test the battery with
automotive 12V bulb. Maybe you have selective
hearing or reading?,

Well, actually, if I were a tech, I'd probably would have had
the transformer on hand, and therefore, it would have taken an
hour to get to this point.

As it was, I *immediately* ordered the transformer the moment I
disconnected and tested it, because it clearly had a blown
secondary.

In fact, contrary to what you may assume, I probably even ordered
that well before you said to do it (it was blown, after all), so,
it's not at all that I have "selective hearing"; it's just that it
took a few days for the parts to arrive.

Had the parts arrived sooner, we'd be at this point sooner.

Anyway, I am now searching for the right battery to buy.

I'm not sure if they have a "series" size, like car batteries do,
where batteries within a given series fit (e.g., side terminal,
top terminal, etc.).

Anyway, the parts I either ordered or will order a
1. Transformer (received)
2. Battery (to be ordered)
3. D135A battery-protection circuit (after testing further)

The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 11/26/2013 10:55 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 14:21:40 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

Tony, I worked in the alarm industry years ago and to reset and alarm
board may not be as simple as shorting a jumper. This prevents another
company from hijacking your customer accounts. It's a security feature
and the reset is a code in static ram that may only be possible to
access by first putting in the installer's code. It really depends on
how easy or difficult the manufacturer has made it. ^_^

I visited a few intrusion alarm shops today and the Bosch definitely
has a LOCK code (that's what they called it) on the board.

That super-secret lock code allows *only* them to program the circuit
board.

The owner of the home is never provided that lock code, I was told.

Incredulously, I asked why, and they said it prevents burglaries.


You could probably purchase a DSC board and keypad to install in your
existing can, reusing the same wiring, switches and detectors. I think
there are several places on the web including eBay where you might get
one. I purchased a number of main boards only to install inside
generator transfer switches to monitor the generators. DSC makes pretty
good stuff. ^_^

http://www.dsc.com/

TDD
Hi,
Even if so, that kinda feature is very easy to hack. I used to retrieve
code and save, load, copy, etc. on all kinda controllers. I am out of
the loop now being retired but gained skill and knowledge is still in my
brain. I often unbrick wireless routers for friends and neighbors
using similar method. I use J-tag or serial connection to get inside the
sick router for an example.

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 01:49:57 -0500, tm wrote:

You will measure 16.5 volts RMS AC when the load is 45 VA.

Ah. I see. Makes sense. The voltage drops under load.

Use a 3 amp fuse.

Again, makes sense. That (roughly) equals the rating.

Can you check the current draw with your meter on AC Amps?

I measured roughly 700Ma to 800Ma AC current out of the secondary
winding when I powered it up and set the alarm and opened a door,
etc.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5542/1...b7dbacb0_o.gif
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5493/1...483d2de9_o.gif
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2865/1...43a084a9_o.gif

On 11/27/2013 1:08 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 11/26/2013 10:55 PM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 14:21:40 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

Tony, I worked in the alarm industry years ago and to reset and alarm
board may not be as simple as shorting a jumper. This prevents another
company from hijacking your customer accounts. It's a security feature
and the reset is a code in static ram that may only be possible to
access by first putting in the installer's code. It really depends on
how easy or difficult the manufacturer has made it. ^_^

I visited a few intrusion alarm shops today and the Bosch definitely
has a LOCK code (that's what they called it) on the board.

That super-secret lock code allows *only* them to program the circuit
board.

The owner of the home is never provided that lock code, I was told.

Incredulously, I asked why, and they said it prevents burglaries.


You could probably purchase a DSC board and keypad to install in your
existing can, reusing the same wiring, switches and detectors. I think
there are several places on the web including eBay where you might get
one. I purchased a number of main boards only to install inside
generator transfer switches to monitor the generators. DSC makes pretty
good stuff. ^_^

http://www.dsc.com/

TDD
Hi,
Even if so, that kinda feature is very easy to hack. I used to retrieve
code and save, load, copy, etc. on all kinda controllers. I am out of
the loop now being retired but gained skill and knowledge is still in my
brain. I often unbrick wireless routers for friends and neighbors
using similar method. I use J-tag or serial connection to get inside the
sick router for an example.

Well Tony, I've seen all sorts ways to get into routers and their
controllers but alarm systems usually have proprietary code and perhaps
on chip encryption. No doubt with your skill set you could get into one
of them and reset it but it's been many years since I've seen any
digital alarm system board that could be reset with a simple jumper. The
early digital alarm systems weren't that sophisticated and were easy for
someone with a modicum of electronics knowledge to reset because the
digital systems were a magical arcane conglomeration of parts that few
miscreants understood. Well, the crooks caught up and manufacturers have
had to keep pace. I think I have a few removed from service main panels
out on the porch and if you like, I could dig into them and list the
chip sets on the boards and you could tell me what you think. ^_^

TDD

On 11/27/2013 12:43 AM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 23:42:31 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

DSC makes pretty good stuff. ^_^ http://www.dsc.com/

Thanks for that reference, as its good to know what's a good outfit
from the plethora out there on the net.


Their stuff is OK, even if it is Canadian. ^_^

TDD

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 01:45:26 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

I think I have a few removed from service main panels
out on the porch and if you like, I could dig into them and list the
chip sets on the boards and you could tell me what you think. ^_^

I spoke to a few of the intrusion alarm guys, and they said they
get used LOCKED boards all the time, but, they can't program them, so,
they're useless as a resale item because of that.

One guy told me that Bosch will provide him the unlock code
for $75 a board, but, even if he gets the board for free,
he can't make any money selling it at only $25 above that cost.

So, he told me, they lock them to make all old boards useless.

Of course, he probably had a specific view slated toward resale,
but, if they LOCK the boards to keep the burglars out, I still
don't get *how* the burglar is supposed to benefit.

I mean, there must be *easier* ways to circumvent an alarm system
than re-programming the whole thing, aren't there?

On 11/27/2013 1:52 AM, Danny D'Amico wrote:
On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 01:45:26 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:

I think I have a few removed from service main panels
out on the porch and if you like, I could dig into them and list the
chip sets on the boards and you could tell me what you think. ^_^

I spoke to a few of the intrusion alarm guys, and they said they
get used LOCKED boards all the time, but, they can't program them, so,
they're useless as a resale item because of that.

One guy told me that Bosch will provide him the unlock code
for $75 a board, but, even if he gets the board for free,
he can't make any money selling it at only $25 above that cost.

So, he told me, they lock them to make all old boards useless.

Of course, he probably had a specific view slated toward resale,
but, if they LOCK the boards to keep the burglars out, I still
don't get *how* the burglar is supposed to benefit.

I mean, there must be *easier* ways to circumvent an alarm system
than re-programming the whole thing, aren't there?


That crap you see on TV about a guy walking up to an alarm system keypad
with a magic box having a ribbon cable to plug into the alarm keypad,
popping the cover and cracking the code in under 10 seconds, it doesn't
work. The alarm would trigger as soon as the keypad cover was removed. ^_^

TDD

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message news
On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 23:21:02 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:


But I'm not sure *how* one scopes out prospective gel cells.
For example, here's an ELK which looks like it should fit:
http://www.surveillance-video.com/el...hannelid=BCOME


As long as the voltage is correct, and the form factor fits where you
want to put it, that is your primary concern. Amp-hour rating should
be spec or larger. Terminals are not really an issue. The anal retentive
types will disagree, but if you have larger spade terminals, they will
work on the smaller spade terminals that some batteries have.

*I presume you already know the current battery voltage, if not, check and
make note of it*

In your case, test the board output (bypass the battery cut-out
board--come directly off of alarm board) of the alarm board.
Power system off (unplug transformer). Plug battery in and power
system back on. Check the voltage at the battery terminals. 13.5
to 14.7 is an acceptable reading (anything 13 or above will work,
just takes a bit more time to recharge and will not give a true
full charge).

Note: Most charging systems do not give grief when a battery is
disconnected while the system is powered up. I only state
to turn off/disconnect power as a caveat. Make certain that
neither lead comes in contact with anything else. Wrap
each lead with tape or protect with non-conductive shell.

Unplug positive lead of battery and unpowered system. Let stand for
half an hour and check the voltage of the battery. If above initial
low reading, and steady, your battery probably is still good. You did
start out at 13.5, originally.

Plug battery back in and power up system and let charge overnight.
Unplug the battery and leave in place all day. I do believe I do not
need to repeat myself as to how to do this. After a minimum of six
hours, check the voltage of the battery. Is it 13.5?

Of course, you may check the charging voltage in 1 hour increments to
verify that the charging system is lowering the charge voltage over
time. Cooking a battery is not a good idea.

I still recommend buying a small U.P.S. to filter the input to the
system, and providing additional run time. Someone here posted a
link to a battery cut-out unit that was universal. Get it and install
it. Don't mess with making the entire system OEM. Make it work and,
if possible, work better.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 16:22:22 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 02:18:47 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013 20:13:04 -0500, krw wrote:

Why bother quoting it if they can't sell it to you.

My logic in asking would be the same as my friend asking
me how much my cellphone cost. I could still quote the
price even if I had no intention of selling it to him.

So, you would give your friend a price on *your* cell phone without
any intention of selling it? Do you think Bosch is your friend?

They all told me exactly the same thing. If they told
me the price, they would be breaking their legal agreement
with the manufacturer.

Gee, they won't violate their contract with each other. How odd.

So, one thing I've learned here is that Bosch sure knows
how to lock up a market. I'm pretty sure I will have a
source by tomorrow though, as I have a few leads pending
from my phone calls.

Bosch has done no such thing. "The market" is not their parts. Buy
a system from someone else, if you don't like the way they do
business.


This is nothing new. I helped a friend start an alarm business back
in the mid '70s. Some distributors refused to sell to the company,
unless we signed a contract to spend at least $100,000 a year with them.

I'm sure it's not new. It's completely understandable. Do you think
McDonalds corp. will sell to you for a lousy $100,000 a year?

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 03:51:51 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 14:49:01 -0500, krw wrote:

Buy a system from someone else, if you don't like the way
they do business.

For two reasons, that is exactly what I would do were I to build
a system of my own, from assembled parts.

I hope you don't intend on having it connected to the police
department. They will *really* frown on that.

1. You can't get the Bosch parts anyway, so, nobody can build their
own system out of Bosch parts, and,

Understandable. It's not reasonable to build cars out of Ford parts,
either.

2. Even if I could get Bosch parts, I wouldn't build a system out
of restricted parts, simply because it would be difficult to
expand and repair in the future.

Huh?

However, when I asked today at a few intrusion alarm places, they
told me that the "reason" Bosch is restrictive is to prevent
intelligent burglaries.

Perhaps. It's their business. If you don't like it, go somewhere
else.

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 03:48:00 +0000 (UTC), Danny D'Amico
wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 01:33:21 -0500, tm wrote:

If someone mixed up that wiring, it could present a short circuit
to the power supply and battery.

The alarm has been working for years, so, I'm pretty sure the wires
didn't all of a sudden get changed.

The good news is that the new transformer arrived today.

However, the voltage output wasn't at all what I had expected from a
16.5VAC transformer secondary.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5532/1...7612e531_o.gif

I measured:
a) 20 VAC across the secondary

Reasonable. You tested it with no load, right?

b) 3.54 VAC across on side of the secondary to ground
c) 0.98VAC across the other side of the secondary to ground

Huh?

The secondary is isolated from the primary. Any measurements made
across the isolation are meaningless.

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message ...
Nightcrawler® wrote:

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message
news
The voltage from the secondary to the ground (middle screw) was weird
(see picture where it's 3.5 volts on one side, and 1 volt on the
other), which was wholly unexpected, but, probably
not important.

Not weird at all. The ground is electrically isolated from the
secondary of the transformer. What you are seeing is phantom
readings.

Hi,
That's why I still keep and use old Simpson 260.
Probably I use it more than Fluke day in day out.

Oh, yeah. I miss my old Simpson, and even my old Fluke 73 (damned thief).
When tuning a Woodward 2301 or 2301A (or similar device), digital meters
are to flakey to easily accomplish the task. I managed, without, but
once in range of desired output eyeballing and a feel comes into play.
Having a crappy fuel source really adds another layer of frustration.
The dumb-ass plant operators that muck the settings up bring on the urge
to punch something in the throat. :-)

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 14:03:09 -0500, krw wrote:

I measured:
a) 20 VAC across the secondary

Reasonable. You tested it with no load, right?

Correct.

Also, when plugged into the alarm system, it only drew 800mA.

b) 3.54 VAC across on side of the secondary to ground
c) 0.98VAC across the other side of the secondary to ground

The secondary is isolated from the primary. Any measurements made
across the isolation are meaningless.

Thanks.

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 11:34:40 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

As long as the voltage is correct, and the form factor fits where you
want to put it, that is your primary concern. Amp-hour rating should
be spec or larger. Terminals are not really an issue.

This is all good information.
I will order a battery, and a new battery-protection board, which,
I'm pretty sure, should solve the remaining problems.

On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 14:00:51 -0500, krw wrote:

It's their business. If you don't like it, go somewhere else.

Understood.

One security professional emailed me the following about the lack of DIY for this system:
"The system you have is a upper level system so if you can utilize it then that is good.
Radionics/Bosch never was intended as a DIY system.
They were always geared for the upper end market and are used in High Security systems.
Most banks, government divisions (including the FBI, Secret Service, Post office and the military use their equipment.
They used to be even tighter with releasing their documentation prior to being acquired by Bosch.

Regarding the CALL FOR SERVICE, that is normally a message that appears when the keypad does not receive any data from the control board for about two minutes.
You can confirm that by powering up one of your keypads with 12VDC only with no connection to the panel."

"Danny D'Amico" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 11:34:40 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

As long as the voltage is correct, and the form factor fits where you
want to put it, that is your primary concern. Amp-hour rating should
be spec or larger. Terminals are not really an issue.

This is all good information.
I will order a battery, and a new battery-protection board, which,
I'm pretty sure, should solve the remaining problems.


I don't think we have proved the battery protection board is bad yet.

You should connect it up to the panel and see if the relay will pull in and
that you have DC voltage on the red and black battery leads.

Then install the new battery and see what the charging current looks like.

Danny D'Amico wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 23:21:02 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

Not weird at all. The ground is electrically isolated from the
secondary of the transformer. What you are seeing is phantom
readings.

Thanks for the confirmation. I have no experience with this type
of transformer. I wonder why they even have the center lug, but,
maybe it's for other applications.

If I were a technician, it wouldn't have taken this long to
get a replacement transformer, so I would have been at this
stage within the first hour had I a new one in stock.

The 12V 5AH battery also appears to be low, so, I'll get
a new one on the net. The one thing I'm worried about is
the terminal sizes.

In car batteries, the "series" determines if the battery
will fit (e.g., terminals on the side, or on the top, etc.).

But I'm not sure *how* one scopes out prospective gel cells.
For example, here's an ELK which looks like it should fit:
http://www.surveillance-video.com/el...hannelid=BCOME

There are two sizes of terminals in that current range. 3/16" wide and
1/4" wide The 3/16" is common in low current applications, and the 1/4"
in UPS.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

The Daring Dufas wrote:

You could probably purchase a DSC board and keypad to install in your
existing can, reusing the same wiring, switches and detectors. I think
there are several places on the web including eBay where you might get
one. I purchased a number of main boards only to install inside
generator transfer switches to monitor the generators. DSC makes pretty
good stuff. ^_^

http://www.dsc.com/


DO you remember brands like MOOSE and FBI?


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 16:22:22 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

This is nothing new. I helped a friend start an alarm business
back in the mid '70s. Some distributors refused to sell to the
company, unless we signed a contract to spend at least $100,000
a year with them.

I'm sure it's not new. It's completely understandable. Do you
think McDonalds corp. will sell to you for a lousy $100,000 a
year?

I have no idea what a McDonalds franchise costs. These companies were
refusing to sell wire and door switches. Items that other companies
begged to sell us, and they carried the same brands.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

On Sun, 01 Dec 2013 19:52:44 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 16:22:22 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

This is nothing new. I helped a friend start an alarm business
back in the mid '70s. Some distributors refused to sell to the
company, unless we signed a contract to spend at least $100,000
a year with them.

I'm sure it's not new. It's completely understandable. Do you
think McDonalds corp. will sell to you for a lousy $100,000 a
year?

I have no idea what a McDonalds franchise costs.

http://franchises.businessmart.com/h...chise-cost.php

"How Much Does a McDonald's Franchise Cost?" The McDonald's
Corporation requires a minimum of $250,000 of non-borrowed
personal resources to consider you for a franchise. In other
words you need $250,000 cash on hand to just start the
discussion process with McDonald's."



These companies were refusing to sell wire and door switches. Items that other
companies begged to sell us, and they carried the same brands.

Their business model. If you don't like it, buy from the companies
that were begging for your business. Some don't take their franchise
agreement seriously. Others would rather not risk their livelihood.

wrote:

On Sun, 01 Dec 2013 19:52:44 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 16:22:22 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

This is nothing new. I helped a friend start an alarm business
back in the mid '70s. Some distributors refused to sell to the
company, unless we signed a contract to spend at least $100,000
a year with them.

I'm sure it's not new. It's completely understandable. Do you
think McDonalds corp. will sell to you for a lousy $100,000 a
year?

I have no idea what a McDonalds franchise costs.

http://franchises.businessmart.com/h...chise-cost.php

"How Much Does a McDonald's Franchise Cost?" The McDonald's
Corporation requires a minimum of $250,000 of non-borrowed
personal resources to consider you for a franchise. In other
words you need $250,000 cash on hand to just start the
discussion process with McDonald's."


I have nothing to discuss with them. I might go there twice a year.
There is at least one closed franchise near here. Boarded up for years.
It's next to a Lockheed Martin factory. A half dozen other fast food
places are empty, as well. One was only open two months before it
closed.



These companies were refusing to sell wire and door switches. Items that other
companies begged to sell us, and they carried the same brands.

Their business model. If you don't like it, buy from the companies
that were begging for your business. Some don't take their franchise
agreement seriously. Others would rather not risk their livelihood.


They dropped the minimums after we started buying from their
competition, but their prices were more than double what other vendors
wanted. Hell, we could buy it cheaper from the OEM, than from some of
obnoxious wholesalers. In fact, we could buy custom branded sensors for
less than their OTS inventory.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Danny D'Amico wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 23:21:02 -0600, Nightcrawler® wrote:

Not weird at all. The ground is electrically isolated from the
secondary of the transformer. What you are seeing is phantom
readings.

You need ceter tap to do a full wave rectification with two diodes vs.
4 without center tap which is bridge rectification.

Thanks for the confirmation. I have no experience with this type
of transformer. I wonder why they even have the center lug, but,
maybe it's for other applications.

If I were a technician, it wouldn't have taken this long to
get a replacement transformer, so I would have been at this
stage within the first hour had I a new one in stock.

You did not have to use exact OEM one, any x-former with same spec.
would do. Only matter is physical dimension for fitment on the board.

The 12V 5AH battery also appears to be low, so, I'll get
a new one on the net. The one thing I'm worried about is
the terminal sizes.

Again no meed to get OEM one. Take the battery to battery shop, they
will give replacement with same rating and size. If terminal is
different size, you can just solder wires onto it. Or replace clips on
the wires.

In car batteries, the "series" determines if the battery
will fit (e.g., terminals on the side, or on the top, etc.).

But I'm not sure *how* one scopes out prospective gel cells.
For example, here's an ELK which looks like it should fit:
http://www.surveillance-video.com/el...hannelid=BCOME

There are two sizes of terminals in that current range. 3/16" wide and
1/4" wide The 3/16" is common in low current applications, and the 1/4"
in UPS.

On Sun, 01 Dec 2013 21:27:56 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


wrote:

On Sun, 01 Dec 2013 19:52:44 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


wrote:

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013 16:22:22 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

This is nothing new. I helped a friend start an alarm business
back in the mid '70s. Some distributors refused to sell to the
company, unless we signed a contract to spend at least $100,000
a year with them.

I'm sure it's not new. It's completely understandable. Do you
think McDonalds corp. will sell to you for a lousy $100,000 a
year?

I have no idea what a McDonalds franchise costs.

http://franchises.businessmart.com/h...chise-cost.php

"How Much Does a McDonald's Franchise Cost?" The McDonald's
Corporation requires a minimum of $250,000 of non-borrowed
personal resources to consider you for a franchise. In other
words you need $250,000 cash on hand to just start the
discussion process with McDonald's."


I have nothing to discuss with them. I might go there twice a year.
There is at least one closed franchise near here. Boarded up for years.
It's next to a Lockheed Martin factory. A half dozen other fast food
places are empty, as well. One was only open two months before it
closed.

Just stating the facts.

These companies were refusing to sell wire and door switches. Items that other
companies begged to sell us, and they carried the same brands.

Their business model. If you don't like it, buy from the companies
that were begging for your business. Some don't take their franchise
agreement seriously. Others would rather not risk their livelihood.


They dropped the minimums after we started buying from their
competition, but their prices were more than double what other vendors
wanted. Hell, we could buy it cheaper from the OEM, than from some of
obnoxious wholesalers. In fact, we could buy custom branded sensors for
less than their OTS inventory.

So where's the beef?

Danny D'Amico Wrote:

Doesn't anyone on the alarm newsgroup know a pass-through supplier?


It is a pain in the ass to become a Bosch (Radionics) dealer. The alarm
companies that "pass" their standards; and are in a area that doesn't
have too much competition from other Bosch dealers get the seal of
approval to be a certified dealer.

You won't find a "certified dealer" selling parts outright, as you seem
to know. However, there are ways to get parts. Most alarm companies
that are not dealers buy through a competitor for parts. Since you can't
go that route, there are online sites that sell parts.

I did a quick Google search and found one such outlet in 30 seconds. I'll
just post the 1st hit, I have no idea who they are nor have I done
business with them- --- it's just an example. I'm sure you can find more
if I found one that fast!

Example:
http://obsoleteradionics.com/index.p...&productId=772





--

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Ben Franklin

The Daring Dufas posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


On 11/22/2013 10:12 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:
wrote:
On Friday, November 22, 2013 1:35:28 AM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:
Dead alarm system troubleshooting advice requested ...

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5540/1...fcb528ab_o.gif



Yesterday, I had been messing with the main breakers, and accidentally

shut the main 200A breaker without turning off the power generator
switch;

so the Generac kicked in; and I heard the alarm system in the garage

vehemently complaining with persistent loud beeps.



I immediately reset everything, and I thought it was all ok.



Then, today, the alarm system sounded three loud long beeps, and

went totally dead.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5522/1...e48ee609_o.gif



Troubleshooting with my Fluke after removing the alarm system external

wires shows the external ELK-TRG21640 16.5VAC, 45VA power-supply

transformer plugged into an outlet has an open secondary, and when

plugged into an extension cord, there is no voltage from any of the

three screws on the secondary windings:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/1...d64103f6_o.gif



If I thought it was that simple, I'd just replace the transformer;

but I wondered why the backup battery didn't run the alarm system.

Testing the 12V 5AH battery out of the alarm system shows it's 13.5

volts DC (no load open circuit voltage), which, at least seems OK

(I don't know how to load it though):

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3731/1...d9f59f77_o.gif



So, two things must be wrong:

1. The ELK AC transformer secondary opened up suddenly

2. Maybe the power supply inside the alarm system box went bad suddenly

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3751/1...ff0ca903_o.gif



Do you think shutting the breaker without turning off the generator

could have blown the alarm system?


What can one say about these pixs? Alarm systems
are crap, installers are crap. I love the tywrap
around the w1 & w2 leads as a strain relief.

I like the wiring detail. Funky

--
Tekkie

On 12/2/2013 8:46 PM, Tekkie® wrote:
The Daring Dufas posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


On 11/22/2013 10:12 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:
wrote:
On Friday, November 22, 2013 1:35:28 AM UTC-5, Danny D'Amico wrote:
Dead alarm system troubleshooting advice requested ...

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5540/1...fcb528ab_o.gif

Yesterday, I had been messing with the main breakers, and accidentally
shut the main 200A breaker without turning off the power generator
switch;
so the Generac kicked in; and I heard the alarm system in the garage
vehemently complaining with persistent loud beeps.
I immediately reset everything, and I thought it was all ok.
Then, today, the alarm system sounded three loud long beeps, and
went totally dead.

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5522/1...e48ee609_o.gif

Troubleshooting with my Fluke after removing the alarm system external
wires shows the external ELK-TRG21640 16.5VAC, 45VA power-supply
transformer plugged into an outlet has an open secondary, and when
plugged into an extension cord, there is no voltage from any of the
three screws on the secondary windings:

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5527/1...d64103f6_o.gif

If I thought it was that simple, I'd just replace the transformer;
but I wondered why the backup battery didn't run the alarm system.
Testing the 12V 5AH battery out of the alarm system shows it's 13.5
volts DC (no load open circuit voltage), which, at least seems OK

(I don't know how to load it though):

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3731/1...d9f59f77_o.gif

So, two things must be wrong:

1. The ELK AC transformer secondary opened up suddenly

2. Maybe the power supply inside the alarm system box went bad suddenly

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3751/1...ff0ca903_o.gif

Do you think shutting the breaker without turning off the generator
could have blown the alarm system?


What can one say about these pixs? Alarm systems
are crap, installers are crap. I love the tywrap
around the w1 & w2 leads as a strain relief.

I like the wiring detail. Funky


I've always taken the extra time to install everything as neatly as
possible because it makes it so much easier for me and anyone else
coming behind me to service any system I install. I worked for one
little creep some years ago who wanted everything thrown in as quickly
as possible without taking any time to think ahead, I didn't work for
the freak for very long and I can always spot a system thrown together
by his company. I've got a link to the last system I was able to install
by myself back in 2009 before becoming too ill to do much of anything on
my own. I wasn't doing a lot in the way of alarm systems but most of
what I was doing was phone systems, automated attendant and VRS gear,
computer systems, computer networks, video surveillance systems, point
of sale systems and access control systems. I've always made my own
backboards, painted them light grey and drew a 6" grid with a pencil on
them so that when the backboard was mounted level, the grid was level
and all equipment could easily be mounted straight and level and not
look like a 5 year old hung it on the backboard. I also recycle a lot of
hardware. ^_^

http://tinypic.com/3ia0rw35

TDD

On 12/1/2013 6:46 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

You could probably purchase a DSC board and keypad to install in your
existing can, reusing the same wiring, switches and detectors. I think
there are several places on the web including eBay where you might get
one. I purchased a number of main boards only to install inside
generator transfer switches to monitor the generators. DSC makes pretty
good stuff. ^_^

http://www.dsc.com/


DO you remember brands like MOOSE and FBI?


Yep, I installed a lot of them and if you didn't have a tamper switch on
the keypad, you could pop the cover and disarm the system without any
special tools. It was almost as easy as disarming a n/o key switch
that lacked a tamper. ^_^

TDD

Danny D'Amico writes:
On Fri, 22 Nov 2013 11:19:17 -0700, RobertMacy wrote:

Isn't that 880 now? changes where it crosses 101.

I think it changes from 17 to 880 where it crosses the new 85.


No, it changes at 280. And 85 hasn't been "new" for almost 20 years.

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/1/2013 6:46 PM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

You could probably purchase a DSC board and keypad to install in your
existing can, reusing the same wiring, switches and detectors. I think
there are several places on the web including eBay where you might get
one. I purchased a number of main boards only to install inside
generator transfer switches to monitor the generators. DSC makes pretty
good stuff. ^_^

http://www.dsc.com/


DO you remember brands like MOOSE and FBI?


Yep, I installed a lot of them and if you didn't have a tamper switch on
the keypad, you could pop the cover and disarm the system without any
special tools. It was almost as easy as disarming a n/o key switch
that lacked a tamper. ^_^


The real fun was getting the phone company to install a properly
wired RJ31X. It was a couple years before they were available through
the alarm suppliers, so it cost the customer $150 to have Ohio Bell
install it wrong. Then we would have to rewire it so the dialer could
seize the line. Some ID10Ts didn't even wire the switch, they simply
daisy chained the wires so the phones would work. Another problem was
the early battery chargers were set too high and would destroy the Gel
Cell in a year.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.